Can meditation be dangerous (demons)?!

[bel]

Welcome.
I know I am new on this forum but PLEASE take my post seriously. I have some unpleasant experiences with deep meditation in kung-fu. I don't want to write on public too much but I wonder if any of you have met with demons during meditation? If you do have similar experiences please contact me or give reasonable answer.

Lechu

[ChinoXL]

I dun think it's demons; maybe you kinda fallen asleep and experienced something called "scissors"; which is basically when you're half asleep but you your eyes remember everything you and it saves the image, you'll see around you plus see thing(s) moving, it's common for people who don't get enough sleep - in your case i would believe that you fell asleep brefly. Most logical way I can answer it.

[Kapten Klutz]

If you do have similar experiences please contact me or give reasonable answer.

I think you should seek advice from a qualified meditation teacher with a good reputation. My answer is just one meditator to another.

In general one thing they emphasize is that there are all kinds of illusions that the mind can create. Even if they are real demons (I won't take a stand on whether demons or real or not) the same advice applies as with all hostile energies or beings you may encounter: develop loving-kindness. Loving kindness and compassion meditation is probably the most safe form there is, and it is found in pretty much all buddist systems of meditation in one form or another. It is the #1 recommended response to demons.

The other thing to emphasize is that sure meditation can be dangerous if it is misused or if you lack guidance or for someone with mental problems (I don't mean you). So think of it somewhat like fighting training or any sports. There is a risk of injury. What do you do? Start out easy, a little bit at a time. See what effect it has on you. Don't be afraid of any experience during meditation as long as it dissipates when you are finished, but if it causes you problems outside of meditation ease up and seek guidance. Just like with sports and injuries.

Good luck :)

[Hitman]

You can ask Sifu Wong Kiew Kit or any of his students, who using his organisation's web site for help.

Hitman

[Mr Punch]

1) Stop meditating.

2) Go and see a qualified medical professional in psychology/psychiatry.

You are meditating wrongly. ChinoXL/Kaptin Klutz may be right. Also, your meditations may be causing/exacerbating mental problems you may have. Don't take the chance.

[dwid]

I agree with Mat. People with healthy minds do not see demons when meditating. You should really see a psychiatric professional before continuing to practice.

Have you ever seen demons when not meditating? Heard or seen things that those around you don't seem to be aware of? Have you been undergoing any new or unusual stresses in your life lately?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

he may not have access to an actual teacher so im going to link some books i liked. none of them deal directly with "deamons" but i liked them and think they may help just the same.

365 tao (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0062502239/ref=pd_sim_b_5/103-4514520-8057417?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155)

tao of pooh and te of piglet (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/014095144X/ref=pd_lpo_k2a_3_img/103-4514520-8057417?%5Fencoding=UTF8)

shambhala (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0877732647/qid=1147267398/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-4514520-8057417?s=books&v=glance&n=283155)

the places that scare you (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1570624097/103-4514520-8057417?v=glance&n=283155)

[Wing Chun Dummy]

having some knowledge creates fear

empty your mind properly, be passive and yielding, and natural.

[David Jamieson]

You call yourself Bel...

You complain of demons.

Get a grip. :rolleyes:

[SPJ]

there are many types of meditation practices.

some general ideas.

1. clear or rest your mind. no memory, no emotions, no worries, no "thoughts" at all. Just quiet everything. so that your mind is clear, rested or unwound, or no pre-occupations.

we may sit, stand, assume a yogic stance or kung fu stance. we may start to "focus" on breathing, wind, birds chipping, etc. eventually no focusing,

2. there are many hurdles, lingering thoughts or emotions, over time, they may become the dominant thoughts or demons, they may become the determinant for you to decide what to and not to do or say or think.

The Buddhist theory is that there are 7 emotions and 6 desires. They are to be avoided. That needs time to practice.

3. cognition or analyzing things in life or whatever topic. listing things one by one and go thru them over and over. until you reach a "conclusion" or tentative summaries.

---

there are more.

Demons are generated from your heart/mind. Thoughts are influenced by one of your strong emotions or "beliefs".

---

if you are really "troubled", yes, you need to see the doctors for help as pointed out by others.

:D

[TenTigers]

copied from another forum

"as a side note-practicing hei-gung incorrectly can lead to causing rather than dispersing blockages and imbalances. This can lead to many problems, physically,psychically,spiritually, and mental and emotional as well. It is referred to as "Jow Faw,yup moor" running fire, enter demons (spirtual possession)which does not always mean possession, but the psychosis that may result from this.
I have seen the results of incorrect practice, and I will tell you this. Some of it scared the pants off of me. I wouldn't had believed it unless I witnessed it with my own eyes.
There is an unwritten rule regarding the inner teachings. Never give out the whole secrets. That is left only to the initiate, whether it is Gung-Fu, Hei-Gung, Noi-Gung,or Western Occultism, such as High Magick. There will always be specific things either left out, or in incorrect order, misspelled names,backward positions, protection rites,etc. Frankly, I feel this is more irresponsible than putting it out correctly, but either way, it can be dangerous."

[TenTigers]

are you referring to Baal, who I believe is a demonic name? sick

[Scott R. Brown]

The antiquity of the worship of the god or gods of Baal extends back to the 14th century BCE among the ancient Semitic peoples, the descendants of Shem, the oldest son of Biblical Noah. Semitic is more of a linguistic classification than a racial one. Thus, people speaking the same or similar languages first worshiped Baal in his many forms. The word Baal means "master" or "owner". In ancient religions the name denoted sun, lord or god. Baal was common a name of small Syrian and Persian deities. Baal is still principally thought of as a Canaanite fertility deity. The Great Baal was of Canaan. He was the son of El, the high god of Canaan. The cult of Baal celebrated annually his death and resurrection as a part of the Canaanite fertility rituals. These ceremonies often included human sacrifice and temple prostitution.

Baal, literal meaning is "lord," in the Canaanite pantheon was the local title of fertility gods. Baal never emerged as a rain god until later times when he assumed the special functions of each. Although there is no equivalent in Canaan of the sterile summer drought that occurs in Mesopotamia, the season cycle was marked enough to have caused a concentration on the disappearing fertility god, who took with him the autumn rain clouds into the neither world.

eTC.....

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/b/baal.html

[Scott R. Brown]

Baal is also seen as a Christian demon. This is a potential source of confusion.

Until archaeological digs at Ras Shamra and Ebla uncovered texts explaining the Syrian pantheon, the demon Ba‘al Zebûb was frequently confused with various Semitic spirits and deities entitled ba‘al, and in some Christian writings it might refer to a high-ranking devil or to Satan himself. In the ancient world of the Persian Empire, from the Indian Ocean to the Mediterranean Sea, worship of inanimate idols of wood and metal was being rejected in favor of the one living God. In the Levant the idols were called "baals", each of which represented a local spirit-deity or "demon." Worship of all such spirits was rejected as wrong and many were in fact considered malevolent and dangerous.

Early demonologists, unaware of Hadad or that "Baal" in the Bible referred to any number of local spirits, came to regard the term as referring to but one personage. Baal (usually spelt "Bael" in this context; there is a possibility that the two figures aren't connected) was ranked as the first and principal king in Hell, ruling over the East. According to some authors Baal is a duke, with sixty-six legions of demons under his command.

During the English Puritan period Baal was either compared to Satan or considered his main assistant. According to Francis Barrett he has the power to make those who invoke him invisible, and to some other demonologists his power is stronger in October. According to some sources, he can make people wise, and speaks hoarsely.

While the Semitic high god Baal Hadad was depicted as a human, ram or a bull, the demon Bael was in grimoire tradition said to appear in the forms of a man, cat, toad, or combinations thereof. An illustration in Collin de Plancy's 1818 book Dictionnaire Infernal rather curiously placed the heads of the three creatures onto a set of spider legs.

Another version of the demon Ba'al is Beelzebub, or more accurately Ba‘al Zebûb or Ba‘al Zəbûb, Hebrew בעל זבוב), who was originally the name of a deity worshipped in the Philistine city of Ekron. Ba‘al Zebûb might mean 'Lord of Zebûb', referring to an unknown place named Zebûb, a pun with 'Lord of flies', zebûb being a Hebrew collective noun meaning 'fly'. This may mean that the Hebrews were derogating their enemies' god. Later, Christian writings referred to Ba‘al Zebûb as a demon or devil, often interchanged with Beelzebul. Either form may appear as an alternate name for Satan (or the Devil) or may appear to refer to the name of a lesser devil. As with several religions, the names of any earlier foreign or "pagan" deities often became synonymous with the concept of an adversarial entity. The demonization of Ba‘al Zebûb led to much of the modern religious personification of Satan, as the adversary of the Abrahamic god. For more details on the origins of Ba‘al Zebûb, see Beelzebub.

ETc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal#The_demon_entitled_ba.27al

[Scott R. Brown]

Enlil or Bel

Mesopotamian god of the atmosphere, in many senses the most important god in the pantheon, if not the highest. His importance must be ascribed to his being the god of nature's cycles and fertility.
Enlil was the son of the highest god Anu. His main cult centre was at Nippur in today's Iraq. The meaning of "Enlil" is best translated into "Lord of the Wind," or "Lord of the Air."

IN SUMERIAN RELIGION

In Sumerian religion, Enlil was the god of both the atmosphere and the wind. In many respects he is the most active god in the Sumerian pantheon.
He is called "father of gods," "king of heaven and earth" and "king of all lands." In the myths, Enlil is presented as the one who separated heaven and earth, the one who lets everything grow, who created agricultural tools, who created the day and who decided upon the destiny of the world. But Enlil is also the god of storms and bad weather.
In one myth we hear about Enlil raping Ninlil, the grain goddess, whereupon he was banished to the underworld, in order to return to the world, reflecting the cycles of agriculture.
Moreover, Enlil is the god who gave kings their positions, and who gave them progress in war and in peace.

ETc.

http://i-cias.com/e.o/enlil.htm

[Xiao3 Meng4]

find a qualified teacher to help you, and "demons" will no longer be an issue. In the meantime, this might calm things down a bit:

In Qi Gong, when we open the superficial pathways of the meridians, some common initial sensations are pain, stiffness, heat, shaking and tingling in the muscles and limbs. These sensations emerge into our consciousness as we look for the roots to the obstructions in the pathways. With GENTLE natural practice and observation, the obstructions are gradually cleared, allowing for the next step in the development of virtue.

But what of the deep pathways of the meridians? How to clear those? Well, one answer is meditation.

Our minds are cluttered with many acquired influences. These include perceptions, thoughts, and habitual mental emotional states. Acquired influences can cloud the mind's innate influence on our selves and the world. In practicing meditation, many systems look towards clearing these acquired influences by re-establishing an awareness of the moment at hand. In doing so, the acquired influences naturally appear in stark relief to the landscape of true nature in the form of thoughts, perceptions, persistent mental-emotional states, even visions. Remember that these are acquired. Continue the work of maintaining awareness of the moment, and the obstructions will naturally clear away by themselves.

Clearing the deep channels is a natural process, similar to the opening of the superficial pathways, only these are the deep pathways, so the environment is different. Instead of opening the body, we open the mind and clear the obstructions within, allowing our innateness to manifest.

remember, GENTLE, NATURALLY OCCURING PRACTICE. NO FORCING!

CSP

[David Jamieson]

spj has puked pea soup onto the face of the correct.

[FuXnDajenariht]

but yea...i think the general concensus is that you should stop meditating until you find a teacher to correct your practice. sounds like your losing your mind dude.... no disrespect intended but take it very seriously.

[SPJ]

what I meant to say.

we have to clear our minds.

we have to cleanse our hearts with no ill intent toward others.

the ill intents will become evil thoughts over time.

we become the demons.

---

we are harmed by the ill intents we harbor.

---

in short, we may choose to be god like, forgiving and loving etc, or demon like.

It is a Q of choice or selection. The difference between being good or evil is only that between a thought with good or ill intent.

---

see no evils, hear no evils, and do no evils etc etc

---

:D

[SanHeChuan]

I experienced "sleep paralysis" once. That's when you become conscious during deep sleep and can open your eyes. Most people can't move while dreaming which is why most people don't sleep walk. If you become conscious during that dream state (very rare) you will be unable to move. You're still dreaming so you can hallucinate.

I felt like I was pulled out of my dream, my eyes could open and I saw my ceiling. (I was sleeping on my coach) I had a floating feeling, and felt like I was falling towards my feet. When I closed my eyes I saw a shadow hovering over me trying to stab me with a shadowy knife. I couldn't move (I big fear of mine by the way) so all I had to defend myself with was strength of will.

Quite demon like. But just a dream.

I've heard tale of a dude that saw garden gnomes running through his room. Very Ally Mcbeal like.

[David Jamieson]

the mind can manifest all sorts of fear.

just remember that it's your mind that is doing it.
You are doing it.

we each create illusions in our mind both happy and terrible.

It depends on what we believe, what we fear and so on.

But spj has said this already more or less.

[Mr Punch]

but yea...i think the general concensus is that you should stop meditating until you find a teacher to correct your practice. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the consensus.

Most people are giving their own two bits of cod meditation philosophy and rehashed tao/buddhism as usual on this forum when anybody has a problem and asks for advice.

The OP said he has seen demons while meditating. Seeing (or 'meeting') things which are not there is not a philosophical/practical meditational problem, this is a form of psychosis.

So, everyone giving meditational wisdom should shut the **** up and go and meditate on why they feel the need to express their egos in this way on a forum to a possibly seriously disturbed individual.

And the thread starter should:

1) Stop meditating.

2) Go and see a qualified medical professional in psychology/psychiatry.

[dwid]

Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the consensus.

Most people are giving their own two bits of cod meditation philosophy and rehashed tao/buddhism as usual on this forum when anybody has a problem and asks for advice. ...
And the thread starter should:

1) Stop meditating.

2) Go and see a qualified medical professional in psychology/psychiatry.


Indeed. People seem to be addressing this as though these "demons" are metaphorical or an expected part of practice. Either psychosis is widespread on these forums, or a lot of people here are full of sh!t.

Talking about how demons are just a manifestation of your mind is, by the way, not at all helpful. The hallucinations and delusions of a schizophrenic are manifestations of his or her mind, but a person suffering from schizophrenia cannot think their way out of the disease, and any attempt to do so simply delays getting the treatment that is needed.

[Judge Pen]

I experienced "sleep paralysis" once. That's when you become conscious during deep sleep and can open your eyes. Most people can't move while dreaming which is why most people don't sleep walk. If you become conscious during that dream state (very rare) you will be unable to move. You're still dreaming so you can hallucinate.

I felt like I was pulled out of my dream, my eyes could open and I saw my ceiling. (I was sleeping on my coach) I had a floating feeling, and felt like I was falling towards my feet. When I closed my eyes I saw a shadow hovering over me trying to stab me with a shadowy knife. I couldn't move (I big fear of mine by the way) so all I had to defend myself with was strength of will.

Quite demon like. But just a dream.

I've heard tale of a dude that saw garden gnomes running through his room. Very Ally Mcbeal like.

I've had a couple of incidents of sleep paralysis before too. What's intriguing is that you never hear reports of people haveing a good dream during the event. Instead of a shadowy figure over you, etc. why can't it be Adriana Lima? It's interesting to me that all the reports are of evil and frightful feeleings and all of them are amazingly similar. I wonder why?

[dwid]

Well, I think it shouldn't be surprising under the circumstances. By definition in sleep paralysis you have limited awareness and no intentional muscular control. Your brain is still partly in a dream state, having not been able to move through the full transition from REM sleep to waking, so your consciousness is, in a sense, compromised (you can't fully count on the reality of your perceptions).

It has been speculated that, in the old days, accounts of experiences with incubi and succubi were possibly related to sleep paralysis, as are more modern accounts of encounters with aliens. If you think about it, the way people describe alien encounters really meshes well with sleep paralysis - waking to sensing presences in the room, not being able to move, etc...

Anyway, if I ever have a sleep paralysis hallucination, I'd much rather mine be a sex demon than an alien.

[Crushing Fist]

I think the reason no one has happy dreams during sleep paralysis would be that it is an inherently frightening experience, so the fear manifests in these bad visions.

Supposedly sleep paralysis can lead to astral projection, if the fear can be conquered.

and if you believe in that. otherwise I guess it would lead to psychotic hallucinations. :rolleyes:

As far as the medical profession and mental illness go, I'll just say i don't put a lot of stock in their ability to "treat" it at all. Putting people on Zombie Meds is not making them well, it is making them addicted to Zombie Meds.

but then in the case of someone who has descended into madness to the depth of becoming dangerous to themselves and/or others, what else are we to do?

I guess chemical lobotomies are better than the icepick variety.


I do have a question for you followers of the psychiatry faith...

what would you recommend to someone having recurring nightmares?

would you be as quick to say that they are likely very disturbed and in need of treatment?




if someone enters a deep meditative state then their brainwaves can mimic that of deep sleep.


I'm sure you see where I'm going with this...


If this person is seeing "demons" in regular waking life, sure that's probably psychosis.


but to jump to that in meditation is a bit of a leap. don't you think?


is it maybe just possible he is having semi-waking dreams (nightmares) here?


ok, now for my ego's 2 cents (the "medical advice" was in no way ego stroking though, was it guys? :rolleyes: are you practicing pyschiatrists?)

1. STOP MEDITATING

2. Go to a park, get some fresh air.

3. Maybe go to a museum or something relaxing.

4. If hallucinations persist follow advice of the medical professionals.

5. Try not to get hooked on Zombie Meds. Its bad stuff.

[BruceSteveRoy]

lol well put Dwid. There are those that have a condition called a slow wave sleep disorder and are very "active" sleepers but they are the exception. In the majority od people the muscles paralyze as the brain waves speed up during the REM cycle (except, of course the involuntary mucles). There is a segment of the population that instead of the brain waves speeding up they slow down allowing the voluntary muscles to move. The condition usually isn't serious. but i used to date this girl for a bunch of years that had it. She used to sleep with her eyes open, sleep walk, sleep talk, but more alarming sleep punch. mostly the walls but sometimes me. (at least she said she was sleeping lol). but it was weird. she also had a tendency to scratch herself.

anyway as for the actual topic of this forum i have been debating whether i wanted to weigh in. Just because a person hallucinates does not mean they are schizophrenic, though it is one of the most obvious clinical signs. There are 4 symptoms that constitute schizophrenia, flattened or inappropriate affect (emotion), hallucinations (almost always auditory but occasionally visual), delusions (paranoia, grandeur, persecution being the most common themes), and and unexplanable incommunicability (either they don't make any sense when they talk or they can't process what they are hearing). Now any of these individual symptoms can be explained by other circumstances (perhaps head trauma, a tumor, brain lesion, etc). what really sets a schizophrenic apart is the idea of insight into their illness. a schizophrenic does not realize what they are experiencing isn't real. even when they are told that. so jumping to a conclusion as significant as that is risky. also there is a condition known as schizophreneform (spell check) disorder which looks a lot like schizophrenia but unlike schizophrenia isn't a permanent disorder. it usually lasts about 6 months to a year. i guess its the difference between being chronic and accute.

now whether this individual is able to discern that the hallucinations are real or not could go a long way to determine what is going on. whether the demons are real is a religious/ philosophical debate i have no intention of even touching.

so with all of that said the only person that is going to be able to determine the mental well being (or not so well being) is a qualified physician. sure somethings are able to be dealt with on a faith base but other things need professional consultation. this does not mean this person is "crazy" it just means there is someone more qualified that can assist him/her.

sorry for being long winded.

[dwid]

As far as the medical profession and mental illness go, I'll just say i don't put a lot of stock in their ability to "treat" it at all. Putting people on Zombie Meds is not making them well, it is making them addicted to Zombie Meds.

but then in the case of someone who has descended into madness to the depth of becoming dangerous to themselves and/or others, what else are we to do?

I guess chemical lobotomies are better than the icepick variety.


I do have a question for you followers of the psychiatry faith...

what would you recommend to someone having recurring nightmares?

would you be as quick to say that they are likely very disturbed and in need of treatment?




if someone enters a deep meditative state then their brainwaves can mimic that of deep sleep.


I'm sure you see where I'm going with this...


If this person is seeing "demons" in regular waking life, sure that's probably psychosis.



Well, I'm a long-time student of psychology/psychiatric medicine who is also a buddhist/meditates. Believe it or not, I think mindfulness meditation can actually help people with even the most severe of psych diagnoses (like schizophrenia). However, it needs to be taught in a way that is appropriate to the patient and takes account of the problems inherent in such an illness. There is good research out there on mindfulness-based approaches to the treatment of a variety of psychiatric illnesses.

Regarding the stuff on zombie meds, I do not intend to offend, but it sounds like the kind of stuff often spouted by people who have limited (if any) experience with working with people suffering from psychiatric illness. The atypical (newer) antipsychotic meds, when titrated appropriately to a patient, can often achieve therapeutic effects without the extreme side effects of the older meds. For some people, it is indeed a balancing act, in which the effects of the meds are only slightly better than the effects of the illness.

Regarding the ego of the "psychiatry faith," it's really not the case. First, I believe meds are way overprescribed, and would rather rely on other treatment methods when at all possible. This is a problem both of patients and doctors. Patients want a quick fix just as badly as doctors want to have a billable patient that they only have to see for 15 minutes every three months to adjust dosages. I would much rather see a patient empowered to own their own recovery, so to speak. If there is faith to what I think regarding psych, it is faith in basic science - evidence based research in practice. Using anything else as a guideline for treating illness is simply fumbling in the dark.

[SanHeChuan]

Maybe the dude could describe the experience more completely? If for no other reason that to satisfy our curiosity.


Judge Pen
I've had a couple of incidents of sleep paralysis before too. What's intriguing is that you never hear reports of people having a good dream during the event. Instead of a shadowy figure over you, etc. why can't it be Adriana Lima? It's interesting to me that all the reports are of evil and frightful feelings and all of them are amazingly similar. I wonder why?

Yeah, what Dwid and Crushing Fist said, not being able to move is scary. But evil succubi sex demon is my kind of scary. Some people pay for that kind of stuff. As long as there is sex with a hot girl involved, (and sometimes even the ugly ones too) it's a good dream.

[Judge Pen]

Well, I'm a long-time student of psychology/psychiatric medicine who is also a buddhist/meditates. Believe it or not, I think mindfulness meditation can actually help people with even the most severe of psych diagnoses (like schizophrenia). However, it needs to be taught in a way that is appropriate to the patient and takes account of the problems inherent in such an illness. There is good research out there on mindfulness-based approaches to the treatment of a variety of psychiatric illnesses.


Are you a follower of the Acceptance-Commitment Therapy school of thought? Your last post certainly leads me to think that.

[dwid]

Acceptance-commitment has some good aspects. Hayes (its principal developer) is a radical behaviorist, though, which brings with it certain dogma. Also, I think in some respects, ACT is unnecessarily complex. Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy, which is rooted in work by Jon Kabat-Zinn, is a lot simpler, and therefore probably easier to conceive of as implementable on a more widespread scale. Generally, I follow any decent research I can find on mindfulness based approaches to therapy, but I also don't see them as the holy grail. Often, the patient determines the therapy, and some patients just wouldn't be willing or able to get on board with a mindfulness based therapy.

I guess in this sense I'm an advocate of eclecticism, but with the major caveat that it has to be an intelligent eclecticism. In other words, I'm not going to just randomly grab this or that therapy and see if it works. I look to the research to see what is most likely/more likely to be effective and go from there.

[Crushing Fist]

dwid -

it sounds like you are one of the good ones


one of the few good ones I would say

Most of my experience with said "zombie meds" is not in anti-psychotics but rather anti-depressents, particularly SSNRI's and such.

My experience with these is through more than one girlfriend being given these awful substances by people who in my opinion have no business practicing medicine at any capacity.

The first one had hallucintations and severe depression (diagnosed as Borderline Personality Disorder) and she weighed around 90 lbs.

she was being prescribed 800mg of Effexor a day, which was apparently the legal limit.

I could tell you all kinds of stories about faked suicide attempts etc. but I'll spare you the gruesome details. Lets just say it left me with a bad impression of this drug.

More recently we have Cymbalta (a newer fancier one) which was causing seizures in my current girlfriend. Since she didn't remember them she didn't believe they were happening (or at least claimed not to). Her "doctor" had put her on that and another one at the same time, while telling her that the other Anti-depressent was a "sleeping pill" (I looked it up, it wasn't. but sleeping was one of its side-effects) and told her she could take as many of those as she wanted...

and this after telling the "doctor" that her mother had killed herself with sleeping pills.

and the "doctor" didn't seem to take into account her thyroid disorder and that she is on synthroid, which there are warning about in the literature.


These drugs are bad news.

Did you hear the one about the college girl who was taking part in one of their studies for extra money? She had no history of any mental illness (she was in the "control group" or whatever). A couple of days after they switched her off of the stuff (I think this one was Cymbalta, but maybe it was another related drug) and onto a placibo, you know what happened?

she hung herself.

right there in their research lab.

now all their ads have that part about "see a physician if you have suicidal thoughts"

Once on that stuff, getting off is a real killer.

[Judge Pen]

Interesting. I breifly dated an ACT therapist. I had difficulty wrapping my little mind around all of the concepts so I'm glad to hear your assesment that it is unecessarily complex. (makes me feel less dumb). :D

[dwid]

Yeah, antidepressants can be a big problem.

First, like I said above, there is the issue of overprescribing, which applies to doctors and patients.

Second, there is the issue of general practictioners/primary care providers prescribing these meds. Most general docs simply don't know enough about psychiatric medicine to really have any business prescribing this stuff. I think part of it comes down to a basic problem where lots of MD's just don't respect psychiatric medicine as valid, so they think psych meds are no big deal. Then you end up with people getting terrible side effects that are made worse by the fact that they were never warned about them. A friend of mine took Welbutrin to quit smoking and had severe and persistent panic attacks starting about 30 minutes after he took the first pill. He had no idea what was happening and hadn't been warned that this was a possible side effect. Pretty messed up.

Still, some people need antidepressents, and some of the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) have demonstrated significantly fewer side effects in most people than their predecessor drugs. The key is, if you don't absolutely need drug therapy, don't have it.

As far as the incidence of suicide, it's well-established that the most dangerous time for a person with severe depression is when they're starting to come out of the depressive episode. In the midst of a severe episode, most people lack the energy or drive to carry out a suicide attempt. However, as they start to feel a little better, the impulse might still be there coupled with the newfound capacity to act on it. In the case you described, obviously, there is something else going on, but it is plain irresponsible research to leave a patient unmonitored when coming off a relatively untested drug.

[dwid]

Interesting. I breifly dated an ACT therapist. I had difficulty wrapping my little mind around all of the concepts so I'm glad to hear your assesment that it is unecessarily complex. (makes me feel less dumb). :D

Yeah, I think it's really a side effect of Hayes' monster ego. Instead of reducing the therapy to its basic components and then maybe explaining it in terms of behaviorist theory, he had to tie it in to all this radical behaviorism stuff he had been developing over the years. To be fair, the guy is pretty much a genius, and a prolific researcher in clinical psych, but he's also a bit of a douchebag.

[Crushing Fist]

yeah it was cymbalta...


I looked a bunch of this stuff when she was having the seizures





When the body of a 19-year-old student, Traci Johnson, was found hanging from a shower rod in the laboratories of pharmaceuticals giant Eli Lilly, US officials were quick to announce that the death could not be linked to a new anti-depressant drug she was helping to test.

During her stay at the hotel-cum-clinic in Indiana known as the Lilly Lab, Johnson had been taking part in trials for a secret new formula called Cymbalta, a chemical cousin of Prozac, which the company hoped would guarantee huge profits for years to come.

For the drugs giant, her death on 7 February last year was an "isolated tragedy" that did not prevent it from pressing ahead with the Cymbalta trials. It is now on sale in the US and - under another name - in Europe and the UK.

But for the scientific community it was another warning bell about a class of medicines already under scrutiny for possible ties to suicide. After all, Johnson was not depressed. Far from it. She enrolled in the clinical trial as a healthy volunteer in order to earn money to pay for her college tuition. Anyone with signs of depression was excluded.

Now, medical researchers attempting to establish the truth about Cymbalta are asking why her disturbing and very public suicide is completely absent from the official record, at least as it is released to academics and the public. According to an investigation by The Independent on Sunday, this and at least four other suicides by volunteers have been hidden by the US regulators, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).

As the FDA admits, even a young woman's death counts as a commercial secret in the world of pharmaceuticals.




sick.


just plain sick.

[dwid]

Yeah, that's pretty effed up. No surprise that the pharm company would do its best to bury something like this, though.

[Judge Pen]

Yeah, I think it's really a side effect of Hayes' monster ego. Instead of reducing the therapy to its basic components and then maybe explaining it in terms of behaviorist theory, he had to tie it in to all this radical behaviorism stuff he had been developing over the years. To be fair, the guy is pretty much a genius, and a prolific researcher in clinical psych, but he's also a bit of a douchebag.

Wow, and all that time I was told he could walk on water. :p When I was dating her, she went to one of the ACT retreats and was telling me about some of their excercises etc. Gotta admit, it soulded a little weird to me.

CF, where did you get the quote on cymbalta? It doesn't sound like it was written by the AP. I may be in the minority here, but I don't think pharm companies are evil. I think medicines are over used in situations, but the good thats come from medicines far out-weigh the bad.

And, back OT, I'm sure we could give all the demon see'ers a little pill to make the bifurcated tails go away.

[dwid]

Wow, and all that time I was told he could walk on water. :p When I was dating her, she went to one of the ACT retreats and was telling me about some of their excercises etc. Gotta admit, it soulded a little weird to me.


I actually interviewed with him when I was applying to grad school. It was one of those experiences of extreme disillusionment, as about 2 minutes in I went from him being the top guy on my list to work with to being absolutely sure I didn't want to have anything to do with him. I kind of got the feeling you describe with this girl from his students that I talked to, and he has a really strong personality, so maybe some people just get really wrapped up in it. To be honest, given his interest in mindfulness and the perspectives on treatment in his writings, I expected him to be very humble and respectful of applied psychology - I found him to be neither.

[Crushing Fist]

JP-

the original article was

Independent on Sunday, The, Jun 19, 2005 by Jeanne Lenzer


a London newspaper




but its been copied all over the web



another from "The Newyorker" (http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?050110fa_fact)




Indeed, Eli Lilly and Company recently received a tremendous amount of bad press when Traci Johnson, an Indiana college student, committed suicide during a clinical trial of Cymbalta, an antidepressant. She had initially been given high doses of Cymbalta, but a few days before her death she had been switched to a placebo. Scientists have found that hallucinations and paranoid delusions can occur when a patient is in withdrawal from an antidepressant. A spokesman for Lilly has stated that it is unclear what led to the girl’s suicide; the F.D.A. officially cleared the company of wrongdoing and approved the drug.

Johnson’s death occurred at the same time that the F.D.A. was analyzing a large set of data compiled from multiple clinical trials. The results, which were released in October, indicated that twice as many children taking antidepressants in clinical trials considered or attempted suicide as children taking placebos. The agency will require pharmacists to include a warning, to be released later this month, that cites this study when dispensing packages of antidepressants. Although antidepressants can still be legally administered to children, the children must now be stringently monitored by doctors.

[Judge Pen]

An inference can be made for the facts of the article, but it hardly reeks of causation. I wonder what the qualifications of the trial were. I would bet that every person in the trial had pre-existing psych issues. Under those circumstances it's really hard to say if the drug was the cause of the suicidial ideation that lead to the act or if the woman would have eventually killed herself independant of the drug.

I guess it boils down to if you trust the FDA's investigation.

[dwid]

An inference can be made for the facts of the article, but it hardly reeks of causation. I wonder what the qualifications of the trial were. I would bet that every person in the trial had pre-existing psych issues. Under those circumstances it's really hard to say if the drug was the cause of the suicidial ideation that lead to the act or if the woman would have eventually killed herself independant of the drug.

An interesting sidenote is that some recent research suggests that suicidality as a trait is actually a separate and distinct form of pathology with high comorbidity with (rather than caused by) some mood disorders like major depression. Thus, some people may be predisposed to attempting/committing suicide without showing depressive symptoms.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hello Gentlemen,

Please allow me to add some thoughts.

I have worked 4 years as a psychiatric nurse. The “zombie” drugs are for the most part not used anymore. If they are used they are carefully controlled and are generally not given to outpatients. Thorazine is the most prominent “zombie” medication. The methodology commonly used for acute psychotic episodes is to over medicate a patient in order to control destructive/harmful behavior then titre the medication down over a week or two until the therapeutic dosage is obtained. The purpose is to use the minimal amount of medication in order to obtain the most beneficial therapeutic effect. Since each person has a different biology and personality not all medications affect individuals in the same manner. Therapeutic dosages also vary over time according to the mental state and biology each the patient. It is not uncommon to repeatedly change medications as the patient accommodates to the medication as well. This occurs for the same reason the body accommodates to caffeine and alcohol. If you recall when you first started to drink beer it only took one or two beers to get a buzz, but after some years of consumption it now takes 4 or 5 or a dozen beers to get the same buzz. This is because the body accommodates (a fancy word for “gets used too”) to the alcohol. The same occurs with medications. Once the body accommodates to the medication effectiveness declines and either a larger dosage is required or a different medication will be prescribed.

For the most part I agree that medications should be avoided if possible or used in declining amounts over time until they are no longer required. This is best accomplished in accordance with an effective therapeutic program. Unfortunately most therapeutic programs are designed around the training and preference of the facility or therapist and not the needs of the patient. In my opinion the most effective therapy is the one that accommodates the personality, temperament and needs of the patient. This seldom occurs in my experience. In some instances an individual may require long term treatment with medication in order to remain socially functional. One of the problems with our society is we seem to attempt to avoid any discomfort at all. It is this desire to avoid any discomfort that leads people to utilize medication. Medication is a short term temporary solution to a long term problem in many cases. Therapy can take years; medication is the easy solution wherein the individual does not have to take responsibility for themselves and their issues.

The best method of resolving one’s personal issues is to introspect into the mind. As with most phenomena, minds function in similar, but slightly different patterns. Therefore, there are similar but different patterns that occur during the process of introspection. The best therapists are the ones who have introspected into their own minds to resolve their own issues because they understand the processes of the mind that occur from a direct perspective. Therapists who have not ventured far enough down this path are not as equipped as those who have and are therefore less effective therapists. It is no different than a spiritual guide really. Someone who has been down the path is the one most equipped to guide a beginner.

To understand ones own mind is the path to resolving most or all of one’s personal issues. The demons that may be experienced during meditation are merely projections from our own minds. They frequently occur because of personal issues caused by the conditioning of the mind.

By “conditioning of the mind” I am referring to the perspective with which we perceive the world which is influenced by the environment we have grown up in. Our personal worldview/perspective originates partially from our innate temperament, but also from this early conditioning. Consider the half glass of water; is it half full or half empty? An inherently negative person will tend towards viewing the glass as half empty, while an inherently positive person will tend to view the glass as half full. This example illustrates how one’s perspective will influence their perception and interpretation of phenomena and thereby influence the quality of their experiences. This is a minor example, but mental programming also determines what we will allow ourselves to perceive and influence how we will interpret the experience as well. A simple exercise to demonstrate this can be performed. Choose your favorite car or maybe just decide you want to notice motorcycles; while you drive around town throughout the following days and weeks use this intention to program your mind to perceive the vehicles that you desire to notice. It will seem to you that all of a sudden there are more of these particular vehicles on the road. This is not the case, you have merely programmed your mind to perceive the vehicles so it “APPEARS” there more of them. We perceive that which we wish to perceive or have been programmed to perceive or have programmed ourselves to perceive. How we interpret what we perceive is determined by how we have been conditioned to interpret our experiences as well. So to one person a meditative experience may reveal something he would call a demon while to another a similar manifestation is merely a projected (personified) personality issue, to another it is a minor distraction, while still another might not recognize the manifestation as significant in anyway. This same principle applies to nightmares in some cases. Dreams serve a number of purposes. One of which is too express mental states that lie beneath our consciousness. It is a sort of safety valve designed to express emotional energy. This serves a therapeutic purpose. Stored or repressed emotional energy is unhealthy so the mind/body attempts to release the energy in a safe manner. Reoccurring similar nightmares tend to have a message within them that are meant to express a personal issue or draw attention to something your subconscious mind wishes the conscious mind to be aware of and address.

So demons/hallucinations within the circumstance referred to above are merely projections of personal issues or manifestations of the worldview of the meditator. That is not to say they are not real per se! They are real for that individual and are therefore not necessarily hallucinations as the term is commonly defined within the medical community. The most common method, within the medical community, of dealing with hallucinations is to eliminate them rather than to understand their message. (I am referring here to incidences that are NOT caused by brain dysfunction, which is a genetic or organic deficiency of brain chemicals.) How we choose to react to and interpret these experiences will determine the over all value/benefit we gain from the experience. They are feared because we don’t understand them. Once we gain understanding the fear will disappear.

[Judge Pen]

An interesting sidenote is that some recent research suggests that suicidality as a trait is actually a separate and distinct form of pathology with high comorbidity with (rather than caused by) some mood disorders like major depression. Thus, some people may be predisposed to attempting/committing suicide without showing depressive symptoms.


Interesting. So one can be pre-deposed to suicidal ideations without being pre-desposed for depression? But yet people who are pre-deposed to depression also show a higher rate of suicide, right?

[Judge Pen]

Interesting perspectives. It always bothered me that people (including my cynical self) are so dismissive of certain experiences (yet I subscribe to the thought that I must experience something to believe it) but yet our own reality is nothing more thatn the electrical impressions as interpreted by our mind. So what' real and what isn't? Sci-Fi has made a killing with playing with these very notions.

[SPJ]

I was reading the AVMA journal or American Veterinary Medical Association journal.

There is an article on depression rate is higher on students in the vet schools across the state on May 15 2006 issue.

I was only tired when I was in the vet school. I think I was just too busy to think about being depressed.

--

a change of routine or a break from classes or just do something different or have a life time habit or hobby of physical activity. For me there were swimming and CMA practice.

my point is that keep yourself busy, so you dun have time to think or lament or remorse or grief etc.

keep a habit of a certain physical activity for life, be it jogging or treadmill walking.

find a way to use your body physically while not using or relaxing your "thinking" minds.

--

If you are in the boot camp, the drill sargeant dun let you think. they drill you over and over till you drop.

--

:D

[SPJ]

I used to think if people believe in some religions, it is because they have weaker minds about themself.

Recently studies found that it is determined by your gene. It was reported in Science and Nature, which issue I forgot.

They somehow found the gene in the people that are spiritual either being the believers or being the preachers.

--

My point is that we may have different settings in our minds, too.

Some are prone to certain things and some are not.

drugs or chemicals are only pieces of the puzzels that we call minds or thought processes.

--

:D

[Scott R. Brown]

Aside from organic or genetic chemical imbalance one of the causes of depression is the conflict between an individual’s self-concept/worldview and their desires. If my desire or expectation about the world or myself is in conflict with the reality of the two as I perceive them, and I am unable to resolve this apparent conflict, then depression results. In this condition I experience a personal dilemma for which I perceive no solution or way out. This puts me in the condition of “effect” which is the feeling that things are happening to me beyond my ability to control or resolve. I feel powerless to affect an improvement in my condition. One solution is put oneself in a condition of “cause”. That is in a state wherein one is actively implementing a solution. In this condition the individual perceives themselves as in some way able to affect a change for the better. They feel empowered to improve their condition. In this circumstance depression is powerlessness versus powerfulness, problem versus solution, effect versus cause, things happening to me beyond my control versus the ability to change my circumstances for the better. Since these individuals have limited or no insight into their own minds and how it functions they feel lost at sea without an oar. Many people with chronic depression do not possess the tools necessary to identify the source of their condition or implement the therapeutic modalities necessary to improve. These tools must be learned and their implementation practiced to successfully transcend the condition.

One of the phenomena of the mind is our perspective of life tends to build a certain momentum. The patterns of our worldview and personal self-image are ingrained over time and build a strength or foundation that becomes difficult to overcome. Positive views breed positive conditions, negative views or improperly practiced views breed negative conditions and these views/conditions have a momentum that will seek to perpetuate that state of being. I liken this to pushing a car down the street. If it is my purpose to change the direction of the vehicle (change my worldview, self-concept, life’s condition) I must first move to the front of the car and slow the negative momentum. This is the active determination one makes to change the course of their life. Then I must overcome the static inertia before I can begin to improve which is to move the vehicle in the opposite, “positive” direction. This takes a Herculean effort for most people to accomplish and is very difficult without personal determination coupled with faithful encouragement of those who understand the process. Finally, over time and practice our mind will establish a new more productive or positive momentum that will seek to perpetuate itself as well.

[neilhytholt]

I have also been witnessed to demonic possession many times, and these weren't only cases of people just screaming and flipping out. Some of these cases included things such as girls speaking in masculine voices and saying things like "she's mine!"("she" as in the host) and sometime even in multiple voices at once. Some of the people I have known have also used demons in warfare against people to create very real effects such as vomiting without the other people even being aware that anyone was doing this to them. There is really no room here for claiming that "they did this to themselves."

Ummm ... I wasn't really reading much into this thread, but at this one ... ???

Basically these people must be insane. Say yes to the anti-psychotic drugs and no to the voices in your head (likely caused by too much pot use).

[neilhytholt]

I was reading the AVMA journal or American Veterinary Medical Association journal.

There is an article on depression rate is higher on students in the vet schools across the state on May 15 2006 issue.

I was only tired when I was in the vet school. I think I was just too busy to think about being depressed.


There's more women than ever in vet schools and in fact they're the overwhelming majority now, right? Something like 4x or more women are on anti-depressants than men, so it seems like it would make sense that vet schools have a high depression rate, right?

[Kapten Klutz]

The OP said he has seen demons while meditating. Seeing (or 'meeting') things which are not there is not a philosophical/practical meditational problem, this is a form of psychosis.



I would like to respectfully disagree. I have spoken to both meditation teachers, doctors and psychologists about this topic before and can summarize the results.

Seeing 'things' in a normal waking state, i.e. hallucinating, can be psychotic if other mental criteria are present, such as anxiety, paranoia or coercive thoughts, i.e. one is unable to function normally.

Seeing 'things' in a state of sleep is normal and is called 'dreaming'.

Seeing 'things' or hearing a voice at the boundary between waking and sleeping is common and is not a sign of illness.

Seeing 'things' in a lucid dream is fairly common and is not a sign of illness.

Seeing 'things' in a state of deep meditation is common and is not in itself a sign of mental problems, as long as it dissipates after meditation and does not cause problems in ordinary life. If it does cause problems it might still just be a meditation problem and not a sign of mental illness.

I do however agree that the OP should seek guidance, however a psychiatrist might not be the right place to turn. That depends on the exact situation, something that we don't know about for sure based on his posts. It's very possible that a good meditation teacher can handle it. Meditators have these kinds of experiences sometimes and in many cases it is easily resolved.

[Judge Pen]

Seeing 'things' in a state of deep meditation is common and is not in itself a sign of mental problems, as long as it dissipates after meditation and does not cause problems in ordinary life.

So, in your opinion, are the things you "see" in a state of deep meditation real in the objective sense?

[David Jamieson]

So, in your opinion, are the things you "see" in a state of deep meditation real in the objective sense?

What is "real"?

You know, the ancient greeks believed that an idea had as much validity as anything manifest because they knew that all things manifest were originally an idea.

This in a sense is true and in my opinion, that's some real magic happening.

for instance, and just to clarify, the idea of the chair you're sitting on was only a thought in a designers head until the materials were processed from matter and made to conform to teh shape of the chair.

THe chair itself, was at first only a thought.

Thankfully, we don't expound upong the minutia in our minds in this regards.

Fear does have a strange way of playing on our minds as do a lot of factors. but these things all come from within and are illusory for as long as they remain unformed in reality. That's what an insane person fails to recognize and a sane person can recognize.

[Judge Pen]

Well, David, that was my point that Sci-Fi has been mining these concepts for ages, but by objectively real I mean more than just a figment of the individual's mind. We can argue until the cows come home about whether anything in the world is real.

[Kapten Klutz]

So, in your opinion, are the things you "see" in a state of deep meditation real in the objective sense?

I wouldn't usually think so. Maybe it's possible that there are angelic beings or something like that — who am I to say it's impossible — but I'm not seeking to meet them if they exist. I was taught to treat anything of that sort that arises as the mind playing tricks on you, to not reject the experience but not to aggrandize it either. I think this is a balanced and sober approach.

[Kapten Klutz]

THe chair itself, was at first only a thought.


Yes or if someone holding a tennis racket hits a ball, the ball goes flying thanks to an impulse of the will. Without the body, nothing would have happened, without the mind to steer the body nothing would happen. I can't help but see mind and matter as two sides of the same coin since they influence each other.

[David Jamieson]

Everything is matter. lol

Matter can change, but energy appears as a constant. there is no increase or decrease. Energy is always present in everything in varying quantity. Including your mind.

afterall, what is a thought by energy moving through neuropathy. Ergo "thought" is matter and energy working together cohesively.

[Kapten Klutz]

To sum up: thoughts matter.

;)

[Scott R. Brown]

I would not say everything is matter. I would say everything is mind. Without mind to perceive nothing exists to perceive. Matter is used by the mind to perceive matter, but idea is not matter it is idea. Idea requires mind to create and perceive it, but mind does not necessarily require matter to perceive or create idea. Idea is dependant upon mind; mind is the source or idea. Matter is merely a tool utilized by mind to materialize idea.

[David Jamieson]

I would not say everything is matter. I would say everything is mind. Without mind to perceive nothing exists to perceive. Matter is used by the mind to perceive matter, but idea is not matter it is idea. Idea requires mind to create and perceive it, but mind does not necessarily require matter to perceive or create idea. Idea is dependant upon mind; mind is the source or idea. Matter is merely a tool utilized by mind to materialize idea.


Scott, are you practicing passive nihilism?

matter exists whether or not we do. example, my grandfather is dead, but the world still exists despite that he no longer percieves it. :p

[Crushing Fist]

Scott, are you practicing passive nihilism?

matter exists whether or not we do. example, my grandfather is dead, but the world still exists despite that he no longer percieves it. :p


And thus we enter the great debate of philosophy...


First of all, David, I belive you have it backwards...

What Scott is espousing is Schopenhauerian "World as Will and Idea" which comes directly from the Platonic Ideas (The Thing Itself)

Your response quoted above, is in fact a summed up version of Nietzche's response to and rejection of this concept.

To Nietzche, the mind was created by the body to serve its needs and not the other way around. Thus the mind being the "plaything" of the body.

He called this the great mistake, the error from which all philosophy had proceeded.

Who is right?

Who is wrong?

Did the chicken come first or was it the egg?


Everything is energy, not matter.

Matter is composed of energy.

Energy is not composed of matter.

E=mc2

[Crushing Fist]

and



just to confuse things more



The world that your grandfather lived in (as do all of us) was made up entirely of his experiences through sensory input.

It is these filters which allow us to know of any world at all outside of ourselves.

We each live in a little world contructed from these experiences and each of us is entirely alone in that world.

When your grandfather died, his world died with him, and it was entirely unique unto him.

Each of our worlds is unique, but where we, through our limited ability to communicate with one another, find similarites in our worlds, we call it "reality"

this is consensus reality... a group construct

but we each also have our own subjective reality known only to us, and when we die it dies with us.

imagine if we were all blind, deaf, numb, and lacked the ability to smell or taste...


what would the world consist of?

would there still be rocks and trees?

to us, in our minds and in our concept of "reality" the answer must be no.

to say that it certainly would still exist of its own is a presumption that is unprovable.

we define things as existing because they appear to us through our senses, or now through our technological extensions thereof.

can we ask a rock if it has any objective existence?

can there be an "objective reality"?

we can never truly know this.


all the things we see as real, science now tells us are actually just vibrations and waves...








now lets consider the existence of "free will" :D

[dwid]

Interesting. So one can be pre-deposed to suicidal ideations without being pre-desposed for depression? But yet people who are pre-deposed to depression also show a higher rate of suicide, right?

Pretty much. If you want to discuss the topic further, feel free to PM me or start another thread (maybe in other related arts). At this point the thread has steered so far away from this it wouldn't make sense to continue that discussion here.

[neilhytholt]

neilhytholt:

Where do you get off calling someone that you've never met insane?!

Sorry but ain't no such thing as demons.

Therefore, anybody who believes in demons and possession and all that must be insane. Having dealt with several crazies including my dad and uncle, I can tell you that the people who usually tell you these things are psychotic.

My uncle is insane from too much drug use, and my dad had a nervous breakdown when I was younger due to stress. My dad claims to have had visions of Satan.

There are some antipsychotic drugs you can take that can help you out with this. The longer these people wait, likely the worse it will get.

Seek professional help. :)

[dwid]

Amen to that.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi David,

It is a presumption that mind ceases to exist when material form dissipates. Just because your grandfather no longer possesses a material form does not require his mind to no longer exist.

Your view might be correct if mind depended upon matter for its existence however, do not confuse “the brain is composed of matter” with “the mind is composed of matter”. Mind forms matter, matter does not create mind! The brain is the physical interface of the mind allowing mind to manipulate matter directly through the physical interface of the body. The mind utilizes material form for a purpose, but does not depend upon material form for its existence. In other words, mind is independent of matter. This is indicated (pointed to, hinted at) whenever mind creates within the material universe. The idea of a thing exists prior to its manifestation within material form. Whatever man creates begins as an idea within the mind first and is projected upon matter second. Matter does not form without mind to direct it. Therefore, the forming of matter requires mind, but mind does not require matter.

Inherently nothing exists without a mind to perceive it. Take the question, “If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear, does it make a sound? The answer is NO! Why? Because sound must be perceived by a mind in order for it to be “interpreted” as sound. You may argue that the waves still exist, but the waves are not the sound, the waves are waves the mind interprets the waves as sound because of the receptive device: the ear, nervous system and brain. These are merely conduits that transmit the information from the waves to the mind. We may say, “well then I will tape record the sound and the tape player will prove the sound exists separate from the mind”. However, all a tape does is store information. It is merely an extension of the receptive device of the body as all measurement and perceptive devices are. There is no sound if there is no mind to perceive and interpret it. There are no waves without mind to perceive them. To a mind without a means to perceive the physical universe the physical universe does not exist. This is because the information transmitted within that universe would not be transmitted to mind. Information does not exist without something to perceive it. Nothing is nothing until a mind measures it, then it becomes something.

Mind is that indefinable something that perceives and interprets information. Since mind is inextricably entwined with the perception of information we cannot say that information exists separate from the mind that perceives it. For without mind there is inherently no information to perceive. If there is no perceptive system how could there be something to perceive. There two are in interdependent.

One may try to argue, but these sounds do exist! The universe DOES exist whether I perceive it or not or whether man perceives it or not! Firstly, there is no way to demonstrate this assertion. For to demonstrate it requires a mind to do the demonstrating and a mind to perceive the information. Without mind there is no perception of either one. This of course proves my assertion! Secondly, it is rather self-centered to presume that MY mind or YOUR mind is required. We are not required to presume the MIND of which we speak is the mind of MANKIND!

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi dw3041,

At the very least one could say that the phenomena you cite may be interpreted in many other ways than the way you and your acquaintances have interpreted them. One person’s demon may be another person’s guardian angel. What one person considers alien abduction may be another person’s encounter with leprechauns.

We cannot escape ourselves. We each have our own way of perceiving and interpreting information. So in some way we project onto our experiences our own biases. These biases influence the meaning we impose on those experiences and thereby the quality of those experiences.

If I witness a traumatic event during a rainstorm when I am 4 years old the traumatic event will imprint on my psyche. As an adult I may fear rainstorms for some unknown reason. I may have nightmares whenever there is a rainstorm, but not understand why they occur. Since the traumatic event occurred when I was very young I may not consciously remember the event or I may remember the event, but not the rain. However the emotion of the trauma has imprinted upon my psyche and it is associated unconsciously with rain. When rain occurs the emotions I felt during the original trauma are automatically activated. Therefore, I interpret the event of rain as an unexplained, unpleasant fearful event. There is no inherent danger associated with rain. It is what I have projected upon the event from within my own mind that determines the quality of my experience in relation to the rain.

Another person may have had a pleasant experience during a rainstorm. This might imprint pleasant feelings upon the psyche in association with rainstorms. Consequently rain might stimulate unexplained enjoyable feelings for this individual.

The same event experienced by these two people is interpreted and experienced differently based upon what each brings to the event.

The event is just an event it is what the individual brings to the event that determines the quality and meaning of the event.

Your demons are demons because of what you bring to your experience. They possess no inherent meaning to you other than what you project on to them.

[Crushing Fist]

see?

he's talking schopenhauer all the way

and it sounds like he may have attended the "forum"


hey scott, do you "choose chocolate"? :D


of course Nietzsche knew the concept was unprovable from either side, despite the fact that he rejected all mysticism. He pointed out that to living humans "knowledge of any metaphysical world was as useful as the knowledge of the chemical composition of water would be to a sailor facing a storm."



First Mate: Cap'n! There be a squall blowin in!

Captain: Aye! But did ye realize that water is made of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom? We'll be fine lad...


it doesn't do us any good. we still have to live here. when the time comes we all get this riddle solved for us.

isn't that comforting? :)





now from a metaphysical standpoint, the idea that one man's demon is another's gaurdian angel is a bit of a reach as far as analogies go.


I mean if you believe in that sort of thing at all, its kind of hard to call a negative possesive spirit a "guardian angel" by any standard.

[dwid]

Wow!

I didn't think that someone could possibly be so narcissistic (and not to mention stupid) as to believe that their own experiences could dictate what is and isn't possible!

Just because the cases you've experienced were caused by craziness doesn't mean that it is the only cause possible. Holy Sh!t!!! I feel like I'm talking to a fvcking two-year-old!!! I shouldn't even need to say this to anyone who has the ability to type!

How about you do yourself a favor and just listen to the experience of someone who never did any drugs and whose family didn't include a bunch of psychos like your's.

Hey dude. You're the one who came on here asking for help. If your sh!t is so together that you're absolutely confident in the reality/validity of what you're experiencing, then I suppose you probably have some idea of how to rid yourself of these demons. The fact is that lots of people experiencing psychotic symptoms of mental illness have hallucinations and delusions of a religious nature. I've seen it many times. The fact that it is common does not mean these demons have an existence separate from the mind that is conjuring them. Furthermore, you may have to at least consider the possibility that your own senses or facilities for processing information have been compromised.

Extreme claims require extreme evidence, so the obvious question is, which is more likely? That you are somehow sensitized into being aware of demons that most or all people around you cannot perceive, or that most or all people around you are perceiving reality and that the demons are an illusion (however real they may seem) that is being created by you through processes of which you are not consciously aware.

[Shellhammer]

Many persons have experienced strange phenomena as they awaken spiritually. I tend to agree with the idea that we simply cannot know the "thing-in-itself" for we do react and respond to what we percieve through a conditioned state. Here we leave western philosophy behind for a moment and travel into Huei Neng's assertion that "from the start, nothing is" and perhaps agree on the difference between "conventional" and "Absolute" reality.

The Book "Spiritual Emergency" by Stanislav Grof might be helpful here. Contributors to this book are people like Jack Kornfield and R.D Laing.

Peace
Mark

[Kapten Klutz]

I tend to agree with the idea that we simply cannot know the "thing-in-itself" for we do react and respond to what we percieve through a conditioned state. Here we leave western philosophy behind for a moment...

That sounded very western to me. Kant, basically.:)

[dwid]

Kant or Won't?

Sorry, couldn't help myself...:)

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Crushing Fist,

I have never read Schopenhauer or Nietzsche! I have never heard of the “forum” and I am afraid I would need to know more about the context of the question before I could answer your query regarding chocolate! LOL! ;)

I guess I would sort of agree and sort of disagree with Nietzsche. I agree that metaphysical/mystical knowledge cannot be proven through rational argument, but it MAY be indicated and directly apprehended. I also disagree that it provides no useful purpose. In fact I consider it is in many ways the most valuable knowledge since material value is transient while spiritual/philosophical value is eternal. The only thing we take with use when we die is who we are! Metaphysical/mystical knowledge changes the quality of our being. But one must also define what they mean when referring to metaphysical/mystical knowledge and also address the context in which the knowledge is applied.

First, the demonstration:

Many forms of knowledge may only be apprehended through direct experience and cannot be demonstrated using rational argument. For example, the taste of an orange cannot be proven using rational argument. To understand/know the taste of an orange one must taste it directly. My description of the taste does nothing more for another person than perhaps allow them to recognize it “might” be the substance they are presently tasting. The description of a thing is not the thing. It is a shadow pointing to the thing. If we cling to the description and ignore what it is point towards….”then we will miss all that heavenly glorrrrrry!!!” (Bruce Lee, "Enter the Dragon”)

Here is an example using an optical illusion:

This is the old woman/young woman optical illusion.

3336

Suppose you are able to perceive the old woman, but not the young woman. I state to you there is also a young woman in the picture. You insist to me that there is no young woman because you cannot see her. I describe the young woman to you and try to point out where she is. You are unable to perceive the young woman and insist that I am seeing things that are not there. You maintain that I am hallucinating because you cannot see the young woman. The young woman is there in the picture regardless of whether you can see her or not. I am not hallucinating. I am merely able to adjust my perspective in order to perceive what you cannot. I cannot PROVE to you the young woman exists, you must perceive her directly for yourself. The changing of your perspective is the only thing that will allow you to perceive the young woman, but this cannot be taught. You must learn how to do it for yourself. No one can demonstrate to you how it is done.

Some people will eventually perceive the young woman through the persistent effort of looking for her, others will not be able to see the young woman no matter how hard they try or how long they persist but then one day, while only glancing at the picture, they will immediately perceive her. The young woman exists within the picture regardless of whether we can perceive her or not. The picture never changes it is the perspective of the perceiving mind that changes. This perspective change cannot be taught, but it can be learned.

The young woman cannot be demonstrated to another through rational argument. Either you see her or you don’t. This is one of the messages behind Plato’s “Allegory of the Cave”. Therefore Nietzsche is correct from one perspective in that metaphysics cannot be proven using rational argument, but is incorrect that it cannot be proven at all!

As to whether mysticism is of inherent value or not:

Let us consider Nietzsche’s metaphor as cited by you. The chemical composition of water may be useless to a sailor in a storm, but it is not useless to a chemist creating useful compounds with water or its constituents. Usefulness is dependent upon context. Therefore, mysticism or metaphysical knowledge is useless to Nietzsche according to the context with which he approaches the knowledge, but not to others. I may believe a red painted room serves no useful purpose, but perhaps the color is pleasing to another person. This color provides a quality to their life it does not provide to me. So at best I can say that a red colored room serves no useful purpose for me. My determination the red room is useless is as inherently meaningless in an absolute sense as Nietzsche’s declaration that metaphysical knowledge is useless.

Knowledge of any kind may be considered useless if it is not utilized within a useful context. A cup of water will do me no service when I am trying to start a fire, and heat will do me no service when my throat is parched. Or we may refer to the famous line of a sailor, “Water, water everywhere and not a drop to drink!” Because Nietzsche was unable to apprehend the usefulness of metaphysical knowledge for himself does not mean it is inherently useless. But it does mean his opinion is as meaningless as the person who cannot perceive the young woman and so declares with ignorant self-assurance she is not there.


Your assertion that “the idea that one man's demon is another's guardian angel is a bit of a reach…” has some truth according to a specific context. However it presumes a fixed definition of a demon and its purpose. When you say, “its kind of hard to call a negative possessive spirit a "guardian angel" by any standard” we are assuming much.

First the let us address the word “negative”. An experience is positive or negative according to the context within which we choose to define the experience. If I grasp a hot ember I will burn my hand. This may be considered a negative experience; however I have learned a positive lesson. I now know not to grasp hot embers thus protecting myself from greater injury in the future. The experience of grasping a hot ember then is open to the interpretation of the experiencer. An experience is negative when we don’t accept the lesson it has to teach. Just as with the old woman/young woman illusion the individual determines the context with which they choose to interpret their experience. I may perceive the old woman if I choose or the young woman if I choose. The choice I make will determine the quality and value of my experience.

Now let’s look at the intention of the “demon” to possess another. If my 2 year old son attempts to “possess” the cookie I am holding I will not be in fear for I may easily prevent his purpose from being achieved. If a 500 lb. gorilla attempts to possess the cookie I am holding I will be in fear. Why? Because the gorilla is able to pull my arms off in order to get my cookie! The gorilla has greater power to achieve his purpose than my power to prevent him. Therefore, I will live in fear when he attempts to take my cookie. This presumes I value my cookie more than is necessary, however.

So the fear of being possessed by a demon presumes the demon has the power to possess greater than one’s power to resist possession. Since we are assuming the existence of a demon within this example we must also accept the lore of demon possession which states a demon may not possess what is not freely given. This means the individual possesses greater power to prevent possession than a demon has to take it! The only way a demon may possess a person then is to convince the person they have the ability to accomplish the possession. In this circumstance the individual simply does not resist and possession occurs. The individual accepts they have no power, therefore they have no power.

So how can this experience be transformed into perceiving the demon as a guardian spirit? If in the long run I learn something of value from the experience the negative experience becomes a positive experience. If I am training a student and continuously slap him in the head, it hurts, it is unpleasant for him. But through the pain of the experience he will learn to cover his openings thus increasing his ability to protect himself from injury during confrontation. The temporary pain creates a stronger fighter. Since in our example we are accepting the existence of demons, within this tradition of thought there is also a presumption of an eternal spirit. Something that is eternal exists forever; therefore an experience of demon possession or attempted demon possession within the context of forever is a minor skin on the knee of time. The lesson learned from the experience will be of benefit in the long run of existence compared to the short term trauma experienced on the local level.

It is context that determines how we experience a phenomenon and it is the experiencer that has the ability and choice to change the context. Context is changed by changing perspective and changing perspective takes practice.

[Scott R. Brown]

That sounded very western to me. Kant, basically.:)

Hui-Neng preceeded Kant by a thousand years or so, but the concept is not original to Hui-Neng either!

[Crushing Fist]

Scott -

well said... are you sure you haven't been to the forum? :D

as for the chocolate reference, anyone who has been to the forum is laughing right now.

they use it as an example of free choice versus reactionary decision making... I didn't care for that particular part. But if you ever go...

they ask you (or a volunteer) "chocolate or vanilla? choose."

you choose

they ask "why?"

this is usually followed with endless rejection of whatever reason is put forth.


*******!!!!!!!SPOILER ALERT!!!!!!!!*******

















the answer is you choose chocolate because you choose chocolate




there, now you have done the forum... :D


If you like Plato, you'll love Schopenhauer. Try on "The world as will and idea"




now as for the usefullness of metaphysical knowledge, saying that it makes one feel good isn't really a use. not in the practical operative sense.


It makes the captain feel better to know the composition of water, but he's still going to drown.

now as far as context, certainly everything must be considered in context.

if humans are to be likened to sailors at sea facing a storm, then this is the given context. A chemist in the lab would (in this case) be more akin to a god-like being tinkering with creation.

Now if this is knowledge of the eternal which we will have for all eternity, why bother with it in our finite time here? If it does not pertain to this world how is it useful to us here. I can only assume that we will have unfettered access to this knowledge in the next world, so why bother wasting your limited time here on it.


to consider zen...


Be Here Now



we'll have plenty of time on the other side to contemplate the metaphysical

but our time here to contemplate the physical is limited.


as for the taste of an orange/young lady

you are correct, only direct experience of something can allow one to know it, the description is not enough. but how can a physical being directly experience a metaphysical world? even if one seperates from ones body, and as a metaphysical being goes off and experiences the meatphysical world, when he comes back he is now once again constrained to physical reality and any perceptions gained must now be percieved through this physical filter, just as dreams quickly fade away when we return to wakefulness. So, in waking physical life, how can one ever directly experience anything metaphysical?

Therefore the best we can do is guess at and describe what we think is a metaphysical world, without having this required direct experience.


you successfully argued that a demon may be kept from having power over one, but you failed to come to where it becomes a guardian angel. It is the intent of this demon/spirit that is to be considered, not the overall effect. To say that this demon means you well and is only trying to teach you a lesson about the universe is going a bit far. We must infer that those who wish us harm do in fact wish us harm.

But to bring it on back around to Nietzsche and one of his most famous quotes "That which does not kill me makes me stronger"

You have basically said this. Does this mean there is no real distinction between benefit and harm? good and evil?

In this you are closer to Nietzsche and his "Beyond Good and Evil" than to Schopenhauer. Shop claims that Good and Evil are clearly defined and easily distinguished, much in the same fashion as Plato does in "The Republic"

That which is done for one's own benefit without regard for the harm of another is evil.

That which is done for another's benefit without regard for the harm of oneself is good.

These would be considered black and white with all shades of gray falling somewhere in between. (to my photoshop compatriots good=255 evil=0)

Therefore a demonic spirit wants to hurt others for its own gain, and an angelic wants to help others despite danger to itself.

This is pretty basic morality... something which Nietzsche rejected completely.


and...

how can one from our perspective here, assuming there is metaphysical existence, know that our metaphysical selves are beyond harm or cannot be destroyed (or rather consumed)?






p.s. for the record I do like Plato's Cave. It is a good analogy of how we percieve the world through our limited senses./

[FuXnDajenariht]

demons were once angels after all. i guess it depends on whether the person gets the kind of help hes seeking and how he uses and handles that help. of course if his wishes all come to fruition well an angel was sent from above to help him, but if it doesn't hes more likely to blame satan for his misfortunes.

sorta like that saying god gives you what u need and not what u want?

or whats that other one? the best of intentions pave the way to hell or some such thing.

[Crushing Fist]

The Forum (http://www.landmarkeducation.com/) according to themselves and The Forum (http://www.****.de/SINUSsekteninfo/lec/presse/sccs.html) according to someone else

Its kind of like a weird philosophy cult...

Something called an LGAT (large group awareness training)

They use a lot of circular double speak and one of the main points is that to do it properly you have to tell other people about it and invite them to do it too.

The forum lasts 3 days where a forum leader guides the group through western philosophy culminating in Nihilism with Sartre. The effect is to leave the group questioning everything with their sense of the worth of life destroyed, and then they have to take the advanced forum to get their self-worth back :D

I did this with my girlfriend as a favor to her (so she didn't have to go alone)

the first two days everyone has these "amazing transformational experiences" and there is lots of crying and bonding...grown men and women whimpering about their awful childhood, I hated all that.

Then day three they drop a bomb on these fragile wounded souls telling them how nothing means anything... but more importantly it doesn't mean anything that it doesn't mean anything.

Everyone who loved the forum up to there freaks out, and rails against this notion. Their worlds come crashing down around them.

I was in fits of laughter at this point :D


The Landmark Education Center is notorious for using harrassment to get members into the fold, calling you and trying to pressure you into taking more of their classes.

They never called me even once... the cult didn't want me! :D

[Kapten Klutz]

Hui-Neng preceeded Kant by a thousand years or so, but the concept is not original to Hui-Neng either!

You can't keep a good idea down. Or sumfink.:p

[neilhytholt]

Wow!

I didn't think that someone could possibly be so narcissistic (and not to mention stupid) as to believe that their own experiences could dictate what is and isn't possible!

Just because the cases you've experienced were caused by craziness doesn't mean that it is the only cause possible. Holy Sh!t!!! I feel like I'm talking to a fvcking two-year-old!!! I shouldn't even need to say this to anyone who has the ability to type!

How about you do yourself a favor and just listen to the experience of someone who never did any drugs and whose family didn't include a bunch of psychos like your's.

The reason I suggest seeking professional help is that I've met besides my uncle and father several people who went nuts. 3 of whom wound up in the mental hospital, completely disfunctional.

Therefore, I don't idly give you the recommendation to seek professional help for these people. Because, if you don't, the consequences could be worse later down the road.

If you want your friends to wind up in the hospital, and damaged for life, then I guess don't do anything at all. Your choice, right?

You call me a narcicisstic 2 year old. Well watching your friends go nuts isn't exactly fun. Watching your friends dress themselves in sheets while they slather themselves with peanut butter, or talk about how they have proof their wife is a witch because it's written in tiny letters on a piece of metal that they can see with a microscope, or say that cancelling their housing insurance, health insurance, etc., because they have had visions of Satan. Well, it isn't exactly pleasant.

So, whatever. You yourself seem pretty convinced so why are you asking questions on here if you aren't seeking anything?

[Shellhammer]

You can't keep a good idea down. Or sumfink.:p

Quite true, and as brother Fist points out this idea began before Hui-Neng, but I like the old fella because he was illiterate and an average person who "got it" Kinda gives us all a little hope :)

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Crushing Fist,

It sounds as it the Forum is nothing more than a rehashed psycho-scam from the late 60’s and early 70’s! Remember EST? Their psychological games of breaking down an individual’s worldview and self-concept in order to rebuild it in their own image sounds very much like a cult!

I suspect Nietzsche’s definition of metaphysics/mysticism is incomplete. He does not seem to understand metaphysics/mysticism as they are properly practiced and may be addressing the misguided pursuits of those who are seeking powers and abilities rather than knowledge. Mystical knowledge is for the purpose of enhancing the quality of ones experiences. It is nothing more than learning, understanding and applying the inherent underlying rules of existence sometimes referred to as the principles of Tao!

Use or uselessness of knowledge is not limited to the specific context provided by Nietzsche’s example of the sailor and a storm. Life is not so two dimensional. To me his illustrative example does not make his point because he limits the context so unreasonably that life cannot submit too his limits. He further controls the illustration by limiting the definition or misunderstanding the underlying purpose of metaphysics/mysticism.

A ship sailing at sea is not a comprehensive metaphor for all the verities of life! The context of Nietzsche’s example may lead the individual to conclude that Nietzsche considers life similar to a storm. That is, fraught with struggle, fear and danger. Life may be experienced in this manner to be sure, but there is no requirement for life to be interpreted in this manner.

The best he can say is the chemical composition of the water is not necessary information under the limited circumstances of a storm. However, knowledge of the other qualities of water, wind and the properties and abilities of the ship do matter. We can argue these are operative properties and that can not be denied, however they are only operative within the context of a ship sailing at sea as defined by his example, not for life in general. If we correlate knowledge of the properties of wind, sea and ship to the knowledge of the properties and processes of life (Tao), which is one purpose of philosophical metaphysics/mysticism then we will see that inner knowledge DOES assist us in navigating the storms of life and therefore HAS an operative benefit!

To discover how knowledge of metaphysics/mysticisms may be of operative benefit within his example let us consider the benefits obtained from the study of Philosophical Taoism and Zen.

It is the context with which we choose to perceive life that determines how we will respond to life’s challenges and thereby the quality of our life. For example, a person who is afraid to die will react to circumstances differently than one with no fear. Fear clouds the mind and influences our judgments in a manner detrimental to achieving our goal. Over confidence and arrogance creates limitations of performance as well. One of the reasons many samurai studied Zen was because they recognized it as a means to assist them in successfully performing their duties. Warriors at this level understood that to fear death in combat reduces one’s potential for survival and success in battle. When one fears death a portion of their mind will be focused upon preserving their safety. This fear of death divides the mind against itself diminishing the amount of mental focus available for accomplishing the desired goal. To be fearless one must be detached from the desire to maintain safety. The samurai discovered that when they realigned their perspective and integrated it comprehensively they not only tended to fulfill their duties more efficiently, but they were also more likely to survive in conflict. After all, the training and maintenance of a samurai was a financial investment not to be needlessly squandered.

A detached perspective enhances ones physical and mental abilities increasing the opportunity for success. Under these circumstances the effective application of metaphysical/mystic knowledge provides the operative quality required. Metaphysical/mystical understanding keeps events within a context that allows the individual to remain emotionally detached from the circumstance, freeing up the mind to focus on the task at hand and remain intuitively responsive to unpredictable changes in circumstance. Think of it as bandwidth. The quality of my internet connection is reduced when the bandwidth is limited. Fear interferes with mental bandwidth reducing mental and physical function and interferes with the reception of intuitive information. This decreases the chances of succeeding at the task at hand, which in Nietzsche’s example is saving my A$$, my ship and my crew. It the captain had bothered to practice a bit of mysticism he would find he is better able to navigate the storms of sea and life. His knowledge of how hydrogen combines with oxygen is useless under his example, but the knowledge of the deeper perspectives of life and application of the principles learned are his saving grace when life’s circumstances becomes too big to handle using conventional techniques.

In my example the sea captain with mystical understanding becomes ONE with the storm. This enables him to sense intuitively how to respond to the unpredictable circumstances provided by the storm and to move in accord with the energy of the storm. That is, to flow with the energy of the storm rather than against it. All successful sailors learn to do this, however when this ability is combined with emotional detachment responses are intuited and are therefore more successful. The captain’s state of mind increases or decreases his opportunity for survival. It would behoove him to have practiced a means for increasing his opportunity for survival. He accomplishes this through mystical studies wherein he learns to be emotionally detached under extreme circumstances thus enhancing intuitive ability and his probability of survival. If he dies he is not emotionally concerned because he views death as nothing more than a transition between states of being similar to moving to a new town and making new friends and not as an emotionally tragic event. This is the same quality of life attained by master samurai who practice Zen.

This internal quality of life is well known throughout Asian culture and is actively cultivated utilizing daily activities such as the tea ceremony, gardening, painting, marital arts, architecture, calligraphy etc. The highest skill is always attained by those with mystical insight and the quality of the products produced by these individuals has always been highly valued within Asian culture. Herein lies another operative benefit.

[Scott R. Brown]

The illustration of the red room was intended to demonstrate value or “inner quality” more than operative usefulness. How is value/quality a benefit? If I am a sailor and I am going down in a storm, my understanding that life is but a dream changes the quality of my experience and influences the possibility of my dying. The personal trauma of the event is cast within a different context and the negative quality of the event loses its extreme meaning and therefore its emotional impact. The sailor with this understanding is at peace with the event and while he may strive to survive, the quality of his experience is enhanced by his detached state of mind. This is a quality of a higher order than the quality experienced by a sailor with emotional attachments to life. So it provides more than just a pleasant feeling, but changes the entire quality of ones life and enhances ones performance increasing the likelihood of survival. This type of individual is not emotionally attached to transient physical phenomena or circumstances because he recognizes they are un-necessary to contentment.
_____

Some of us concern ourselves with knowledge of the eternal because that is our inclination. No one with any reasonable level of understanding would insist that anyone else concern themselves with something they are not interested in. Those who perceive a benefit will pursue the field of knowledge; those who are not interested will pursue their own interests and as with everything else in life, both will reap rewards and/or detriments as a natural consequence of their chosen pursuit.
_____

I am not sure it is important that one experiences metaphysical phenomena within their daily lives. It is how they apply the knowledge and understanding to their daily lives that increases or decreases the quality of their life and that is what is important.

I agree that any knowledge gained is most likely filtered through the individual’s personality/ego. This is not necessarily a flaw. I see it as purposefully designed into the system. We are all merely facets of the jewel of life each reflecting our perceptions according to our own personal perspective, each adding to the quality of life of the gestalt of our consciousnesses through our unique perspectives
_____

The distinction between benefit and harm is in the eye of the beholder and not inherent to the experience. It is how a person chooses to view an event, the perspective from which they view it, that will determines whether they will consider the event beneficial or detrimental. Two people may experience a similar event, but it is how they will choose to define the event for themselves which will determine the quality of the event for each.

Here is an example I used quite some time ago. To a rapier fighter in 17th and 18th century Germany a scar to his face was a sign of his manliness, something that would bring him distinction and respect from his peers. When he received a scar to his face it was considered a beneficial event. To a modern fashion model the same scar might be considered a detrimental event because it could affect her self-concept, her status as a model and her financial future. Both individuals receive the same type of facial scar, but both react to it differently based upon the personal values they bring to the event.
_____

In regards to the demon/guardian spirit:

I found the example somewhat lacking as well, but we all have time constraints and at some point time runs short so we are left with a weaker than desired illustration.

We are presuming that a demon is intending to harm us and that harm is always bad. Harm is really only an event or experience I would prefer not to occur. While it is true that the definition of a demon includes malicious harm, this is merely a definition and we are not bound to it. The definition is not the thing. My Kung Fu instructor banging me in the head is unpleasant, but he is “playing” the bad guy for my overall benefit. So by understanding the lesson a “demon” has to teach I am provided with a beneficial result. Since beneficial results are generally considered the purview of guardian angels I could conceivably consider the demon a guardian angel as a consequence of the beneficial lesson he provided me.

Your argument also presumes harm is always detrimental. I cited an example or two wherein a seemingly detrimental/unpleasant event turned out beneficial in the long run. When an event occurs that we consider unfavorable we are judging the event from within a limited context. By changing my perspective I now understand how some of the things my father made me do as a child were a benefit to me. When I was a child I did not have this understanding and so considered his discipline harmful, but from the perspective I view the events now I can see how they influenced behaviors that provide now me with desirable consequences.
_____

We may not know for certain that our metaphysical selves are beyond harm (whatever harm really is since harm is in the eye of the beholder), but we cannot assume that it is impossible to have direct knowledge of this just because you and I are presently unable to directly apprehend the knowledge for ourselves. But as a consequence of your question you have made a rather good argument for pursuing metaphysical/mystical knowledge and understanding now and not dawdling about it.

[neilhytholt]

When did I ever ask anyone for help? I came on here to offer some solace from someone with actual experience to someone (Bel) who was being bombarded by accusations of insanity.

I never said anything that even closely resembled a cry for help. It seems as though the only people on here with dilusions are the psych student and the guy who's family was crazy. Go figure.

Okay, sorry. I read back through the posts again and you were the one saying you met people possessed. I got you confused with Bel for a minute there.

Okay, fine, yes some people in my family are nutso (2 of them). Well, you're the one saying you believe in possession and met people who were possessed. All I'm saying is that you might want to seek professional help for the people you met who were possessed, because there's no such thing as demons.

Anyway, I have enough problems with my relatives and my crazy uncle's meth problem, so whatever. :)

[dwid]

When did I ever ask anyone for help? I came on here to offer some solace from someone with actual experience to someone (Bel) who was being bombarded by accusations of insanity.

I never said anything that even closely resembled a cry for help. It seems as though the only people on here with dilusions are the psych student and the guy who's family was crazy. Go figure.

Yeah, I confused you with Bel as well... long thread.

As far as offering solace to Bel because of your "actual experience," it's generally unwise to feed into someone's delusion/hallucination by validating it.

And if there is an accusatory tone to talk of mental illness here, it is in your head. You're the only one I've noticed so far who writes about "insanity" in a way that implies a strong stigma associated with it. I no more accuse Bel of being mentally ill than I would accuse someone of having cancer. Both represent disease processes that are in no way the fault of the person suffering from them. When you use words like "crazy" you contribute to the social stigma associated with mental illness and therefore contribute to the forces that keep so many people who need help from being willing to get help.

[Crushing Fist]

In my example the sea captain with mystical understanding becomes ONE with the storm. This enables him to sense intuitively how to respond to the unpredictable circumstances provided by the storm and to move in accord with the energy of the storm. That is, to flow with the energy of the storm rather than against it. All successful sailors learn to do this, however when this ability is combined with emotional detachment responses are intuited and are therefore more successful. The captain’s state of mind increases or decreases his opportunity for survival. It would behoove him to have practiced a means for increasing his opportunity for survival. He accomplishes this through mystical studies wherein he learns to be emotionally detached under extreme circumstances thus enhancing intuitive ability and his probability of survival. If he dies he is not emotionally concerned because he views death as nothing more than a transition between states of being similar to moving to a new town and making new friends and not as an emotionally tragic event. This is the same quality of life attained by master samurai who practice Zen.

This internal quality of life is well known throughout Asian culture and is actively cultivated utilizing daily activities such as the tea ceremony, gardening, painting, marital arts, architecture, calligraphy etc. The highest skill is always attained by those with mystical insight and the quality of the products produced by these individuals has always been highly valued within Asian culture. Herein lies another operative benefit.



Again, very eloquently put...



but

let us perhaps more clearly define what it is we are talking about.

First the sea captain.

Let us say that life is a journey. This is a fairly common analogy.

Let us then liken this journey to a long sea voyage.

Most of our voyage will be fairly calm, but it is almost certain that a voyage on the open ocean of life will at some point or another run up against stormy weather or other difficulties. This is the context defined. We are each the captain of our own ship on the voyage of life.

Now to be specific, the analogy was that knowledge of any metaphysical world would be of no real use. Not that no Metaphysical/Mystical knowledge would be of any use.

To examine the things you describe:

The captain becomes ONE with the storm

the storm is a physical manifestation of this world, and to become one with it, although it may require a certain type of "Mystical Knowledge" would not entail knowledge of some other world (Heaven/Hell or any other depiction of an afterlife or other plane of existence)

It is in fact a subtle knowledge of THIS world

This is true of all the other examples (tea ceremony, gardening, painting, marital arts, architecture, calligraphy etc.) as well. These are acts which a thorough or even mystical contemplation of our own current embodiment and existence will aid. But knowledge of some other Metaphysical world? How could that aid these endeavors?

Certainly all Zen and Taoist texts I have read involve nothing more than contemplation of this existence, how it comes into being, and the ways in which it works. The ideas of Yin and Yang for instance, are based on direct observation of this world, not some other. Zen meditation is to be present in this moment, not to engage in considering some other world.


Now on the topic of Fear

this is a natural and vital response which keeps us alive.

without fear we could not survive in this world.

However, to have this fear and understand it, and as you say be detatched from it, can only improve one's chances for survival.

but does this detachment come from knowing of some other world, or from a true and clear understanding of this one?

[neilhytholt]

Yeah, I confused you with Bel as well... long thread.

As far as offering solace to Bel because of your "actual experience," it's generally unwise to feed into someone's delusion/hallucination by validating it.

And if there is an accusatory tone to talk of mental illness here, it is in your head. You're the only one I've noticed so far who writes about "insanity" in a way that implies a strong stigma associated with it. I no more accuse Bel of being mentally ill than I would accuse someone of having cancer. Both represent disease processes that are in no way the fault of the person suffering from them. When you use words like "crazy" you contribute to the social stigma associated with mental illness and therefore contribute to the forces that keep so many people who need help from being willing to get help.

This is a really good point, because I had a talk this weekend with my aunt about my uncle.

She said that he had a big accident at one point, ran into a tree, which required CAT scans. They found this growth in his head, in his brain, a small spur like thing in his frontal lobe. Basically, the doctors think that his mental illness is due to this spur thing. And his drug use is partly self medication. He's on antipsychotic drugs, but they only work so much.

There's not much you can do about a growth in your head, beyond trying to treat it. We don't know what will happen to him.

So when I say you might want to seek professional help, it's not out of some stigma. Mental illness is a very bad thing.

[neilhytholt]

It's also unwise to suggest that someone is insane when there is the potential for them to not be. The medication that they give to people who they think are insane will make a person insane if they already aren't. I've known too many people who's lives have been ruined by going to a shrink with a small issue such as depression or recurring nightmares. I hate to break it to you, but psychologists don't know everything, so when it comes to potentialy spiritual matters they had better be very careful to know for absolute certain whether it is a case of insanity or something that they need to hand over to someone who deals with spiritual problems.

Your brain is a bunch of chemicals, etc. People who are insane have a problem with their brain, chemicals, etc.

Yes, psychologists don't know everything. Psychiatrists don't know everything.

BUT, when these people go nuts they wind up in the hospital. So dealing with the matter before they wind up in the hospital might be appropriate.

From what I've come across there are weak people who can't deal with life or drugs. Why, who knows. My personal hypothesis is that they have birth defects or genetic mutations, or a lack of nutrition or their mothers didn't have good nutrition.

Certain things, like a poor diet, stress, drugs and things like that can deplete the bodies stores of neurological component precursors. When that happens, the brain doesn't function correctly, and the person can have problems. Depression, etc., can just be a part of this.

The reason I say this is that everybody I've known that went nuts so far, had either a lot of stress, a poor diet, or did drugs. All of these things have been shown to deplete nutrients in the body. Not to mention drugs can tax the neurons and hyperexcitation of neurons can inhibit things like serotonin production.

The brain is just another part of the body. If it doesn't get what it needs, then it breaks.

So, yes, a lot of the drugs they give act the same as the bad drugs. They are not necessarily the answer, but not dealing with the problem is worse because a person can wind up hurting themselves or others.

Examples of people I knew who had a problem due to drug use/poor nutrition.

My best friend in college was a Hunter S. Thompson fanatic, he would go around and try to do all the crazy things that Hunter S. Thompson did. A ton of partying, drugs including pot, LSD, ecstasy, heroin, and cocaine.

He wound up extremely depressed, didn't want to go outside, didn't want to talk to anybody, and the only thing that helped somewhat was anti-depressant medication.

Drug using uncle. He did a ton of alcohol and drugs. Mostly pot, but also cocaine and anything else he could get his hands on. Wound up having a complete break where he thought his wife was a witch and proof was in a piece of metal, that machines talked to him, that the computer when not plugged in was spying on him, that the CIA was out to get him, etc. My aunt claims he is this way because of a brain defect, but I'm not so sure.

My dad, who didn't eat very much at all, (his idea of a balanced meal was a PB&J sandwich on white bread). Totally stressed out about many things, had a complete nervous system meltdown, almost wound up in the hospital, but claimed to 'Find God'. Claims visions of Satan, claims that he knows he has to cancel all his insurances, not go to the doctor, etc.

One woman that I knew who was a martial arts fanatic, and anorexic. She hardly ever ate. She got her black belt in like 1.5 years. She practiced literally 4-6 hours a day, and more on weekends, in addition to a full-time job before she had a complete psychotic melt-down and quit her job, quit martial arts, and started watching movies all day. Finally, she was found rolling around on the kitchen floor calling out in a little girl's voice. She had to be taken to the mental hospital. 6 months later she was still completely disfunctional.

These are just some examples. Demons DON'T EXIST. People who claim to see these things ARE CRAZY. It's not rocket science here.

[FuXnDajenariht]

the problems seems to be that neither of you are listening to each other. you both have points......

[dwid]

It's also unwise to suggest that someone is insane when there is the potential for them to not be. The medication that they give to people who they think are insane will make a person insane if they already aren't. I've known too many people who's lives have been ruined by going to a shrink with a small issue such as depression or recurring nightmares. I hate to break it to you, but psychologists don't know everything, so when it comes to potentialy spiritual matters they had better be very careful to know for absolute certain whether it is a case of insanity or something that they need to hand over to someone who deals with spiritual problems.

It is not, however, unwise to suggest the possibility that someone might be suffering from mental illness and that they should seek out a professional who can better make that determination. I made no attempt to definitively diagnose, nor did anyone else. That would be silly.

[neilhytholt]

the problems seems to be that neither of you are listening to each other. you both have points......

If I could boil down his arguments, they seem to be:

a) It's impossible to know it all. Therefore, why discount the possibility that (demons) exist?

b) Psychologists don't know everything. Therefore, they don't understand how to deal with (demons).

c) Don't call people crazy just because they believe in something (demons) that don't fit within society's definition of sanity.

My basic argument is:

a) Okay, I'm not claiming to know it all.

b) The people that I knew that said they believed in demons or had visions of Satan, etc., at that time, or later, eventually exhibited behavior that was bad for them or others. (What I am calling crazy).

c) Since people who seem to believe in these things exhibit bad behavior, maybe you should deal with the problem before they get worse.

[neilhytholt]

c) Since people who seem to believe in these things exhibit bad behavior, maybe you should deal with the problem before they get worse.

Basically the reason I think demons don't exist is because:

a) I've never seen one.
b) People I've talked to who claimed that they saw them eventually wound up exhibiting maladaptive behavior (craziness), and wound up disfunctional.
c) People I've talked to who claimed a lot of weird stuff (like demons, Satan, etc.) eventually wound up exhibiting bad behavior (craziness) and did bad things (like lighting their car on fire and getting inside, or trying to commit suicide, or canceling their insurances and not going to the doctor, or wound up completely disfunctional in a mental hospital).

Therefore, I think these people have very low credibility.

[dwid]

Basically the reason I think demons don't exist is because:

a) I've never seen one.
b) People I've talked to who claimed that they saw them eventually wound up exhibiting maladaptive behavior (craziness), and wound up disfunctional.
c) People I've talked to who claimed a lot of weird stuff (like demons, Satan, etc.) eventually wound up exhibiting bad behavior (craziness) and did bad things (like lighting their car on fire and getting inside, or trying to commit suicide, or canceling their insurances and not going to the doctor, or wound up completely disfunctional in a mental hospital).

Therefore, I think these people have very low credibility.

d) All the alleged demons I've encountered have generally responded well to anti-psychotic meds. Perhaps Risperdal is as kryptonite to the dark lord. :D

[Crushing Fist]

What seems to have been overlooked...




Perhaps contact with demonic entities has a tendency to drive people into madness.






Ever read any Lovecraft?

[dwid]

That is not dead which can eternal lie
And with strange aeons, even death may die


Awesome. I love H.P. Lovecraft. I have a caricature of him tattooed on my leg.

[neilhytholt]

What seems to have been overlooked...

Perhaps contact with demonic entities has a tendency to drive people into madness.

Ever read any Lovecraft?

No, I'm not ignoring the claims.

I also did a lot of research into surrealistic art when I was in Art History. Surrealist art is where you find the pictures of demons, etc.

Turns out there was a common phenomena in the middle ages where entire villages would go nuts and claim to see demons and all that. There was even an order of monks of St. Anthony who went out to help these people. It was called 'St. Anthony's fire.'

Turns out that a common fungus grows on rye bread, and the bakers in these villages would sometimes bake the rye spoiled by this fungus into bread, and when the villagers ate this bread, they all went nuts for a while.

What is that fungus? Ergot. What is the active substance in the fungus? Lysergic acid diethylamide, otherwise known as LSD.

Most of the artists or authors who did this art seem to either have been inspired by these outbreaks, or did some drugs themselves (such as absinthe).

[dwid]

dw3041:
Psychotropic Drugs 4th Ed. by Keltner & Folks - a definitive reference guide to drugs used to treat mental illness, their chemistry, pharmacokinetics, relevant neuroanatomy and neurophysiology.

Get this book (or similar), read it, then you will be ready to intelligently discuss antipsychotic meds and the like.

[neilhytholt]

Psychotropic Drugs 4th Ed. by Keltner & Folks - a definitive reference guide to drugs used to treat mental illness, their chemistry, pharmacokinetics, relevant neuroanatomy and neurophysiology.

Get this book (or similar), read it, then you will be ready to intelligently discuss antipsychotic meds and the like.

And DSM-IV, or whatever the current # is now.

Anyways, the common accepted truth, if you will, by society, is that there are no demons, and people who think there are, are insane.

IMHO judging by the behavior of people who claim to believe in demons, society is correct. That's just an opinion, backed up by evidence and experience.

I mean, I've had friends on drugs claim to see ants crawling all over their body. Or snakes. Or that they were king of the world, and anything they did was correct.

Obviously, they were delusional, get it? But if you look at the pharmacology of drugs and their effects on the brain, you can get these same effects from other factors, such as stress, problems with the body, nutritional imbalances or shortcomings, etc.

So occam's razor ... what's more likely true? The phantom ants? The phantom snakes. The king of the world? The demons? Or that these people's brains are messed up?

Edit: Anyways, whatever. As a person who has to deal with mental illness in my family, no choice, I can honestly say that I don't want to deal with a discussion that these people who exhibit such maladaptive behavior are actually sane. Because they ARE NOT sane. That's the bottom line.

[dwid]

Nobody knows nearly enough about the brain to be able to predict what any psychotropic drugs will do. It's just propaganda.

Well, having clearly not read any legitimate research in neuroscience, your assertion has no merit.

By your logic, all medical science is propaganda.

[neilhytholt]

Nobody knows nearly enough about the brain to be able to predict what any psychotropic drugs will do. It's just propaganda.

Actually, I was really heavy into this in college, neuroscience and psychobiology and drugs. The brain chemistry of many of these drugs is well known, and the effects typically show a pattern.

There are of course complications and not everybody reacts exactly the same way, but you usually can predict that somebody on PCP won't react the same way as somebody on coffee (yes, coffee contains 13 pharmacologically active substances besides caffeine), and won't react the same way as somebody on coke, or marijuana, or ritalin, or valium, etc. Maybe some of the newer drugs are not as well known, though.

Anyways you seem pretty convinced, obviously we don't agree, so there's not much more to talk about.

: Shakes head and walks away. :

[neilhytholt]

How many different ways do I have to tell you people?! I AM NOT SAYING THAT SEEING DEMONS CAN NOT BE SEEN AS EVIDENCE OF INSANITY!!!!!!!! I am only saying that it can't be used as proof of insanity.

IMHO it is proof of insanity. But then again, IMHO seeing Satan is also proof of insanity, therefore a lot of 'religious' people would be considered insane as well.

Obviously, there, society does not entirely agree with me. LOL

[dwid]

But I've seen enough doctors and psychologist who have been completely wrong about the effects of certain medications to know that I can't just trust any source that you tell me to look at as reliable.

How many exactly? 10, 20, let's say for the sake of argument, you've seen 100 psych professionals at one point or another. How many had prescriptive priveleges? Psychologists, by the way, cannot prescribe.

So, for the sake of argument, let's say you've had encounters with 100 psych professionals with prescriptive privileges. What does that mean? It's a drop in the bucket and it would be impossible to extrapolate to the entire community of professionals from such a small sample. Further, it says nothing of the validity of research in psychotropic meds or in neuroscience, as the people doing this research are scientists with perhaps similar, but quite different knowledge and training from those working in applied psych (Psychologists and Psychiatrists). For you to say that this research is propaganda without any direct knowledge of it removes any credibility from your assertion. You simply lack the relevant knowledge to debate this topic.

[neilhytholt]

How many exactly? 10, 20, let's say for the sake of argument, you've seen 100 psych professionals at one point or another. How many had prescriptive priveleges? Psychologists, by the way, cannot prescribe.

So, for the sake of argument, let's say you've had encounters with 100 psych professionals with prescriptive privileges. What does that mean? It's a drop in the bucket and it would be impossible to extrapolate to the entire community of professionals from such a small sample. Further, it says nothing of the validity of research in psychotropic meds or in neuroscience, as the people doing this research are scientists with perhaps similar, but quite different knowledge and training. For you to say that this research is propaganda without any direct knowledge of it removes any credibility from your assertion. You simply lack the relevant knowledge to debate this topic.

: walks back :

I do agree with his point, though, about the psychologists and psychiatrists. Psychology is a soft science, and the ones I've met were just clueless. But they can sometimes talk you down off of your weird ideas. Sometimes people just need to get it out to hear for themselves how weird it sounds.

But psychiatry is different -- is a science. Of course, they don't know exactly how everything works, but it's more of a scientific method. But using any psychotropic medications can cause trouble, and anti-psychotics are of course psychotropic medications.

They treat the symptoms, rather than treating the problem. They might attach to your dopamine receptors or stimulate certain other receptors, etc., but they don't HEAL you. The just TREAT your symptoms.

IMHO a lot of people getting better from this stuff, takes time and getting off the problem (drugs, stress, etc.) and eating better.

[dwid]

: But using any psychotropic medications can cause trouble, and anti-psychotics are of course psychotropic medications.

They treat the symptoms, rather than treating the problem. They might attach to your dopamine receptors or stimulate certain other receptors, etc., but they don't HEAL you. The just TREAT your symptoms.

IMHO a lot of people getting better from this stuff, takes time and getting off the problem (drugs, stress, etc.) and eating better.

Well, by that definition, no drug actually heals you of any condition. Anti-hypertensives, for example, may reduce the circulating volume of blood in the body or dilate peripheral vessels, and therefore reduce blood pressure, but they don't treat the underlying cause of the disease. Non-steroidal Anti-inflammatory drugs, like ibuprofen, may stop the inflammatory cascade, reducing pain and swelling, but they don't repair tissues.

The point is that, no, of course psychotropic meds are not the be all end all magic bean to cure psychiatric illness. But, for people who cannot otherwise function, meds can restore some degree of functionality. For people who are too anxious to participate in other less extreme forms of treatment, ativan may reduce their anxiety to a level where they can tolerate and benefit from other forms of therapy, etc... I don't want you for a minute to think that I support throwing drugs at every problem right away (I think my position on this issue is clear from the early part of this very thread). However, meds have their place in the treatment of psychiatric illness, and there are people out there doing really solid scientific research on many of these meds.

[neilhytholt]

Well, by that definition, no drug actually heals you of any condition. Anti-hypertensives, for example, may reduce the circulating volume of blood in the body or dilate peripheral vessels, and therefore reduce blood pressure, but they don't treat the underlying cause of the disease. Non-steroidal Anti-inflammatory drugs, like ibuprofen, may stop the inflammatory cascade, reducing pain and swelling, but they don't repair tissues.

Right ... western medicine treats the symptom, not usually the problem. The doctor can tell you to eat less saturated fat, but you don't, so they give you a pill that tries to help, but causes 10 other nasty side effects. LOL



The point is that, no, of course psychotropic meds are not the be all end all magic bean to cure psychiatric illness. But, for people who cannot otherwise function, meds can restore some degree of functionality. For people who are too anxious to participate in other less extreme forms of treatment, ativan may reduce their anxiety to a level where they can tolerate and benefit from other forms of therapy, etc... I don't want you for a minute to think that I support throwing drugs at every problem right away (I think my position on this issue is clear from the early part of this very thread). However, meds have their place in the treatment of psychiatric illness, and there are people out there doing really solid scientific research on many of these meds.

Right. This is what I was trying to say. When my uncle really lost it and was shooting into the night at CIA agents that weren't really there (nearly hitting the neighbors house), the first thing we did was explain to him that if he didn't get help, he'd wind up in jail or the mental hospital.

So he saw a psychologist, and a psychiatrist, talked about his problem, got some anti-psychotics that helped somewhat, started to realize that he was indeed insane, that the computer can't listen to him when it's not on, that the CIA indeed wasn't out to get him, that his ex-wife indeed was not a witch, etc.

So now when he thinks the computer is spying on him when it's not on, he goes (he actually said this). "Okay, I'm thinking the computer is spying on me even thoug it's not on. But I'm kindof nuts, so it must not be."

It allows him to function in society so he doesn't hurt people, and mess people up. He's still sick, nothing's 'cured' his condition, but he manages his condition.

Does that make sense? Obviously medicine has a long way to go before it could cure somebody like him.

[dwid]

It makes perfect sense. Yeah, medicine still has a long way to go in this area. Sounds like your uncle has developed a good perspective on his situation.

[neilhytholt]

It makes perfect sense. Yeah, medicine still has a long way to go in this area. Sounds like your uncle has developed a good perspective on his situation.

Well, it worked for a while. He's still completely nutso but he keeps his nutso to himself, and doesn't cause people any problems. The only problem is the last couple of years his marijuana addiction turned into a meth addiction, and his health is really suffering.

But actually, a few things he was correct about, such as the secret tunnels underneath his town (I found out from the cops that they do exist -- they were built during the time Mexico ran California), and a few other things I won't go into that involve national security.

So I'm not saying totally discount the paranoid schizophrenics, it's just when their behavior turns to problems that they cross the line.

[Crushing Fist]

That is not dead which can eternal lie
And with strange aeons, even death may die


Awesome. I love H.P. Lovecraft. I have a caricature of him tattooed on my leg.


Shweeeeet.


I have the Sigil for Cthulhu from that paperback "Necronomicon" that came out years ago tattooed on my left shoulder. :D

I went through a major cthulhu phase for awhile, drawings sculptures and such

this one for instance (http://www.deviantart.com/view/18291886/)



Scott-

Perhaps we should start a new thread...


Concerning your take on benefit/harm, the natural extension of this is that all morality and moral culpability is devoid of true meaning. It can only be defined within a given frame of reference, and this is given to constant change.

This extends to the idea that there can be no "wrong-doing". Anything which IS, is SUPPOSED to be, and the universe cannot be "wrong".

This would tend to eliminate any real sense of what is right and wrong, good and evil. everything simply is, and that which is must be considered "good" and "right".

The existence of a thing is its own proof of correctness.

we cannot blame a serial killer for he has done no wrong, and in the great scheme of things is almost certainly helping us.






back to the topic of this thread...

replace the word demon with the word angel in the original post and see how you react.



And for the Ergot fungus, it is well known that for thousands of years Shaman have used hallucinagens to enter the "spirit world"

who is to say that these substances do not allow the user to percieve other realities every bit as real as ours, but normally inaccessible?

and what about the OBE/NDE phenomena? would you consider these another form of acute psychosis or would you give them more credibility?

[neilhytholt]

And for the Ergot fungus, it is well known that for thousands of years Shaman have used hallucinagens to enter the "spirit world"

who is to say that these substances do not allow the user to percieve other realities every but as real as ours, but normally inaccessible?

and what about the OBE/NDE phenomena? would you consider these another form of acute psychosis or would you give them more credibility?

IMHO hallucinogens do not allow people to perceive other realities. Hallucinogens seem to mess with people's minds, and harm their minds. It seems like experienced while on people are on drugs are figments of people's imaginations.

What do I base this on? The fact that most of my friends who did hallucinogens such as LCD, shrooms, etc., either hallucinated things that weren't there, or got very paranoid For example, one friend was always hallucinating ants, another hallucinated that he was somehow all powerful (this while he was running around the room messing it up), another friend got very scared and thought everyone was out to get him, etc.

The fact that a lot of people I met who did these drugs were messed up, sometimes permanently.

BUT, to be fair, I never took peyote or did the peyote ritual with the Native American Church, so I really don't know a thing about what they do. :)

[neilhytholt]

And for the Ergot fungus, it is well known that for thousands of years Shaman have used hallucinagens to enter the "spirit world"

who is to say that these substances do not allow the user to percieve other realities every but as real as ours, but normally inaccessible?

and what about the OBE/NDE phenomena? would you consider these another form of acute psychosis or would you give them more credibility?

IMHO hallucinogens do not allow people to perceive other realities. Hallucinogens seem to mess with people's minds, and harm their minds. It seems like what is experienced while people are on drugs are figments of people's imaginations.

What do I base this on? The fact that most of my friends who did hallucinogens such as LCD, shrooms, etc., either hallucinated things that weren't there, or got very paranoid For example, one friend was always hallucinating ants, another hallucinated that he was somehow all powerful (this while he was running around the room messing it up), another friend got very scared and thought everyone was out to get him, etc.

The fact that a lot of people I met who did these drugs were messed up, sometimes permanently.

BUT, to be fair, I never took peyote or did the peyote ritual with the Native American Church, so I really don't know a thing about what they do. :)

[dwid]

And for the Ergot fungus, it is well known that for thousands of years Shaman have used hallucinagens to enter the "spirit world"

who is to say that these substances do not allow the user to percieve other realities every bit as real as ours, but normally inaccessible?

and what about the OBE/NDE phenomena? would you consider these another form of acute psychosis or would you give them more credibility?

Well, Ergot is a different animal in this sense, as I don't know of any cases of it being consumed intentionally, and it is highly toxic. Yes, it has properties similar to LSD, so you get to hallucinate as you are dying or nearly dying.

As far as hallucinogens, having had a lot of experience in this arena when I was younger, my perspective is that they generate a lot of chaos in the brain as far as neuronal excitation and neurochemical release. The human brain is a pattern seeking machine, so we naturally try to make some sense of this chaos and sometimes end up finding some deep spiritual significance in it all. It is, after all, an experience completely outside the way we normally process information, and maybe through it people sometimes find something that has significance to other people as well. However, for the most part, in my experience, you end up with, at best, sort of stoner philosophy, whose significance fades with the buzz, and people who fly too close to the sun too often end up paying a pretty big price, because, while there may be no permanent structural damage to the brain, the mind can be altered pretty substantially.

Perhaps with the kind of ritual significance and preparation attached to the act, people are better prepared to integrate the experience into a meaningful worldview. I don't know, I can't speak for how cultures operate who use hallucinogens ritually.

From my perspective now, while I don't regret any of the stuff I got into in my youth, I don't really feel it moved me along on my path - more likely it was just a pleasant distraction along the way. Career-wise, it's helpful because it's amazing how many of the people who work with psychiatric patients (a population with a high rate of substance abuse) have at best a limited theoretical knowledge of the effects of different substances on the user. A little practical experience can go a long way into having some insight into what people are going through.

[Scott R. Brown]

Holy Moley!! You skip a day and the world passes you by!

I just dropped by to say i'll have to bow out of our conversation for now Crushing Fist. Thank you for an interesting conversation, but i have some other matters to attend to for now. Perhaps we may continue on another occasion. :)

[dougadam]

Welcome.
I know I am new on this forum but PLEASE take my post seriously. I have some unpleasant experiences with deep meditation in kung-fu. I don't want to write on public too much but I wonder if any of you have met with demons during meditation? If you do have similar experiences please contact me or give reasonable answer.

Lechu

You never wan't to leave your mind totaly free from thought. If you do a demon can enter.

[neilhytholt]

Well, dw3041, you can accuse us of not wanting to help, but why would we post that somebody should possibly see a shrink if we didn't want to help?

Anyway, I agree with you on the modern medicine thing.

Why?

Because I've visted the old folks home, and found where the old people wind up. I had no idea.

I went there to visit a relative, and walked in, and it was like, "Hey, I know you. And you. And you. And you." The librarian, the butcher, the accountant, the lawyer, the teacher, etc. It seemed like all the old people in my town were in there.

And they were all disabled to a certain extent. The pattern is this. You get some illness, you take some drug, it causes a side effect, so you take another one, that causes a side effect.

Pretty soon you're really sick and require surgery. The surgery makes it harder for you to get around. You need another surgery.

Pretty soon you're either in a wheelchair, or you're in a bed with tubes sticking out of you. Sure, they live to be 80+, but it's not fun.

Not everybody has it this bad, but a lot of people do.

But at least that's later, not earlier when your uncle is shooting up the neighborhood, yelling about CIA agents that aren't really there.

[Judge Pen]

I haven't ever met anyone who has been helped by pharmaceuticals without severe side effects. Alot of these side effects are long term, something that the pharmaceutical industry doesn't really look at all too often. It's just too easy for them to shirk the blame instead.


How many reputable independent medical studies can you cite to back up your assertion that the pharmaceutical industry "doesn't look at [long term severe side effects] all too often?" Sure, there are some major examples of litigation involving phen phen and viox, but they are a small minority and the exception. How many lives are saved because of the anti-biotics that are produced. How many cancer patients can go a day without puking their guts up because of medication such as Zofran? How many people live longer because of statins? You are citing anecdotes that can't be easily verified or disproved. People are cured from cancer everyday. To cite the Ramones, I believe in miracles.

Now, that's not to say that I disagree with all of your post. I don't think western medicine has all the answers. I do think that $$ drives many things in this world too, but to say that drugs are worthless is stupid. All herbal cures are drugs. They can have side effects like drugs do. And yes, some pharm companies own OTC and herbal branches, but its a bit too Oliver Stone to say they do so just to create mistrust. They do so to make money. There's nothing wrong with that if its done responsibly.

[dwid]

I haven't ever met anyone who has been helped by pharmaceuticals without severe side effects. Alot of these side effects are long term, something that the pharmaceutical industry doesn't really look at all too often. It's just too easy for them to shirk the blame instead.

Although there are many western doctors that mean well, western medicine is still based on a system that doesn't have your best interest in mind. I don't think that you realise just how corrupt this system is when you get closer to the top. I know of many doctors who have been in legal trouble, even lost their licenses, for using natural remedies to cure people of diseases that western medicine deems incurable. I know people who have cured themselves of cancer naturally using methods that are not legal here in the US.(I wonder why they are not legal...hmmm) I also know someone who makes a product that has cured a number of "incurable" diseases and health problems including AIDS. He was offered money by Merk to stop producing his product but fortunately he turned them down. My girfriend's doctor from ND has had his license revoked and even gotten death threats from other western doctors for using natural means to cure people of cancer. One doctor that I know personally has many friends who have been threatened, imprisoned, killed and even tortured for getting people well. His father met the president of one of the major cancer research programs at the time and when he asked the guy when they would have a cure for cancer, he laughed and said that there would never be one until something more lucrative came along, and this was back in the fifties. The corruption goes back a ways. Before my doctor started to practice natural medicine he had cancer so he went to a doctor that he knew in Mexico to have it cured and he ran into many other western doctors that were also getting cured of cancer; the same doctors that give people chemo therapy and radiation which has awful side effects and in many cases only speeds the growth of cancer. These are doctors that know better, but still harm people to get a pay check. Again, most doctors mean well, but the system itself is still corrupt and should not be supported. And I don't want to hear about people you know who have been saved by western medicine because these people either have or will have negative side effects that could have been avoided (I am talking about the treating of diseases, not stuff like getting stitches). I've heard it all before and will no longer answer to any naysayers to this corruption. I will admit that alot of the natural medicine out there is a load of BS, but I also know that the big medical and pharmaceutical companies run many of the companies that comes up with some of these "natural" cures just for the sake of causing mistrust.

I have very good reasons for believing the things that I do and I will not put up with being labeled as just someone who likes to argue and doesn't know what they are saying. I have surely done more nonbiased research on the things that I know then you have. So just go ahead and listen to everything that comes out of the mouths of the people that call themselves proffessionals just because they studied under other people who also call themselves proffessionals, and completely deny any possibility of ulterior motives among the elite of these so called proffessionals even though they can easily make millions of dollars off of a few simple lies. The fact is that $ controls everything, and until you admit it, you will never know the truth.

It's very obvious that too many people on here just want to argue and have no desire or ability to reason and not enough consideration for the original poster of this thread to post anything that is of any help, so I will no longer waste my time posting on, or even reading this thread.

You may have all the evidence in the world supporting your assertions, but you have offered nothing here to suggest that you have any evidence at all. And you can believe what you want to believe about my unquestioning acceptance of what I'm told or whatever, but I have been studying psychology and psychiatric medicine in one facet or another for over a decade. I have conducted research and have personally known and worked with a good many researchers in the social sciences as well as directly working in inpatient psychiatric care. My knowledge comes from a wide variety of sources, and I don't uncritically accept anything I read or hear. I know enough about statistics and research methodology to be a critical consumer.

I can see that you mean well, but you've offered nothing but conjecture, often clearly based on a naive view of research and medicine. You allege that research is inherently corrupt because of the influence of corporate interests, as though this is some kind of magic wand that allows you to completely discredit legitimate science without actually spending any time studying it.

Anyway, we are basically at an impasse. You have your biases and assumptions based on what is at best a loose collection of anecdotal evidence. Until you build something a bit more convincing, you basically have nothing more to say on this topic. Of course, you won't read this, so I guess I'm pretty much talking to myself here.

[GeneChing]

https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2022-02/16/23/enhanced/6ada2985548e/longform-original-646-1645052455-5.jpg
Ben Kothe / BuzzFeed News; Getty Images
CULTURE & CRITICISM
These Women Say Young Living Essential Oils Has Been Taken Over By Satan. Yes, Really. (https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/stephaniemcneal/young-living-essential-oils-satanic)
“Am I the only Christian woman who is not surprised one bit that an essential oil company would come out as satanic?”

Stephanie McNeal
BuzzFeed News Reporter
Posted on February 17, 2022, at 11:41 a.m. ET

In August 2021, influencer Madison Vining made a big announcement on Instagram. After becoming one of the top sellers for the multilevel marketing essential oils company Young Living, she was quitting.

To her more than 250,000 followers on Instagram and her Young Living team, known as the “Happy Oilers,” the news came as a huge shock. Young Living is one of two of the major essential oils companies in the US, the New Yorker reported in 2017, along with its main rival DoTerra (both claim to be the largest oils company in the world, according to the magazine). Both reportedly reach $1 billion in sales annually and serve millions of customers. Vining, who had worked for Young Living for more than eight years, had reached “Royal Crown Diamond” status; sellers with that status make, on average, $1,645,692 annually or $137,000 a month, according to the company.

People online began to speculate as to why Vining and her husband, Tyler, would leave so much money on the table to start from scratch. When, a few days later, the Vinings announced that they were joining a new wellness-focused MLM, Modere, which is best known for its collagen supplements, rumors swirled that the couple had gotten a huge payout or some other incentive to leave.

For months Vining had kept her reasons for leaving Young Living opaque. But recently, she finally began to spill the tea on social media. One of the reasons the Vinings gave for leaving Young Living? Satan and his demons.

Yes, the prince of darkness. Vining is just one former top Young Living retailer who this month has either insinuated or flat-out said that they left the company after feeling, as devout Christians, that demonic forces were spreading “darkness” among Young Living members.

One former seller, Melissa Truitt, went as far as labeling the company a “cult” in an Instagram story highlight she posted to her account last week and later deleted. Truitt led the charge on the oily “satanic panic” by posting her series of Instagram stories last week accusing the company of spreading “demonic” propaganda through a New Age self-help book it sent to its members earlier this year. She urged Christians still working for Young Living to flee or risk their souls.

“This is so much bigger than money, this is so much bigger than day-to-day life, this is eternal significance,” Truitt said in an emotional Instagram story.

Truitt did not return a request for comment on this story. Vining did not either, and shortly after I reached out, she blocked me on Instagram.

In response to the claims, Young Living said it “did not publish and does not endorse this book in any way.” In a statement, the company said that the book’s co-author, Marcella Vonn Harting, who is a top seller at the company, sent the book to “her own list without the company’s knowledge or consent.” The company denied providing Vonn Harting with anyone’s contact information. (Vonn Harting did not return a request for comment).

“We support a culture of inclusion that we extend to our employees, customers, and brand partners world-wide,” the statement read. “We appreciate and celebrate our members and their diversity of background and belief, and are dedicated to ensuring our brand partners follow our policies and procedures and code of ethics.”

The influencers and former Young Living retailers’ abrupt declarations that the company is satanic are odd to say the least, especially as so many of them, like Vining, have jumped ship to Modere over the past several months, before even receiving the book. Truitt, who had reached the second-highest “Diamond” status, also left Young Living five months ago to join Modere. And other big Young Living sellers slash influencers, like Liz Joy of Pure Joy Home and Monique McLean, abruptly announced they were switching to Modere recently as well.

In fact, so many prominent top Young Living sellers have been leaving that last August Young Living sued some of them, including the Vinings and McLean and her husband, for breach of contract. The lawsuit, which was filed in federal court in Utah in August 2021, was dismissed that December at the request of both sides. Still, it provides valuable insight into the breakup of the prominent Instagram essential oil sellers and the company. In the complaint, Young Living accused the McLeans and the Vinings of working to cut a deal with Modere to “raid” Young Living’s business. (McLean did not return a request for comment. Modere also did not return a request for comment.)


“I feel a lot of clarity breaking my silence for things that matter in eternity."
“The named defendants in this case are former, extremely successful Young Living distributors who have meticulously executed a plan to leave Young Living, join a competing business venture, and take as many Young Living distributors and customers with them as possible,” the lawsuit’s complaint read. Young Living declined to comment on the lawsuit.

But now, the influencers are saying that money or alleged backdoor schemes had nothing to do with their decision to leave. Vining wrote on Instagram that the book Truitt denounced was the “tip of the iceberg on this issue,” and she feels better after “denouncing this spiritual darkness” to her followers.

“I feel a lot of clarity breaking my silence for things that matter in eternity,” she wrote.

The denouncement of Young Living as demonic is especially intriguing because so many of its retailers, Vining included, have spent the past several years blending together the principles of alternative wellness and medicine the company espouses with their evangelical Christian beliefs, and to great success.

Young Living was founded in 1993 by D. Gary Young, a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who successfully blended his own devout faith with a lifelong passion for alternative remedies.

In a newsletter to Young Living members after her husband’s death in 2018, Gary’s wife, Mary, wrote that her husband’s desire to spread the gospel of essential oils was closely tied to his faith, writing, “God was his foundation.”

“He founded the essential oil movement against tremendous opposition and slander, but he never stopped in his desire to serve God’s children,” Young wrote. For many years, alternative remedies like essential oils were stereotyped to be the purview of hippie-dippie rich people, but, as Rachel Monroe wrote in the New Yorker in 2017, essential oils have also caught on more broadly among women all over the US.

“Wellness is often dismissed as frivolity, another way for wealthy white women to spend money and obsess about their bodies,” she wrote. “But you’re just as likely to find essential oils in a small-town drugstore in the Midwest as in an organic market in L.A.”

Over the past decade or so, many of the devotees who made it big in Young Living shared similarities with Vining. They were young wives and mothers in the heartland who were devoted evangelical Christians, and they also seemed to have a suspicion of mainstream medicine.

According to Vining, once she stopped buying mainstream medicinal and home products and dove into essential oils, her life changed dramatically. In 2017, she wrote about how her family had decided to start a “wellness journey” three years before after learning about “the dangers lurking in our home that were making us sick.”

“There are ingredients in everyday things like baby lotion, dish soap, dryer sheets… all linked to cancer, infertility, and disease. We just didn’t know,” she wrote. “We slowly but surely took a trash bag through our home and began to read labels. Into the trash bag went candles, over the counter drugs, shampoo — anything that was setting us or our kiddos up for failure with our health.”

Vining never specified what ingredients exactly were making her family sick but claimed that once she threw out the products she saw a huge difference. And once she found Young Living and began using oils, Vining claimed, her family no longer needed to rely on “toxic” Western medicine.

“We use essential oils for everything in our home, from seasonal irritations outdoors, to first aid type of things, to helping regulate hormones and emotions and all that good stuff, and of course restful sleep!” she wrote. “They’ve blessed our family so so much.”

As the Vinings’ platform grew (in 2017, Vining wrote she had 58,000 people under her in the business), the couple used the proceeds from their essential oil business to spread the gospel of Jesus, effectively combining the two parts of her life.

continued next post

[GeneChing]

“Our prayer has always been that we would use our influence to point everything back to The One who made a way (Jesus!)."
“Our prayer has always been that we would use our influence to point everything back to The One who made a way (Jesus!),” Vining wrote. “We know that this money and this opportunity and this voice have not been given to us because of anything WE have done, and they are not ours.”

In 2017, Vining and another Young Living seller made a goal to get Young Living oils into a school in Uganda that was founded by an American evangelical Christian missionary. The Vinings and their partners were eventually able to raise enough funds to get oils and diffusers into every dorm room and classroom at the school — in order to give the students “appropriate wellness supplies to prevent icky diseases and unwellness,” Vining wrote. She felt that this plan was a calling from God.

“It’s about more than oils, you guys,” Vining wrote. “It’s ALWAYS been about so much more than oils. It’s about ‘wellness, purpose, and abundance’ (YL’s slogan) and it’s about using ANY platform we are given, to glorify the King.”

Vining’s essential oil influence also led to a career on social media, where she became a prominent Young Living influencer. As her prominence within the “oiler community” grew, so did her online presence, and she went from having 56,000 Instagram followers in September 2018 to more than 200,000 when she quit the company in August 2021.

Many other Young Living sellers also found success on social media, where they were able to share their devout faith and their enviable lifestyles while also recruiting new downlines, or Young Living retailers who report to them. McLean, the former Royal Crown Diamond who was sued by Young Living along with the Vinings last year, grew her platform to more than 29,000 Instagram followers and launched a book and video series called 24 Days of Prayer for Your Business. In the series, McLean led followers virtually on a spiritual devotional aimed at centering their faith in their business ventures, Young Living or otherwise. Truitt, who has more than 43,000 Instagram followers, is also open about her Christian faith, often discussing her religion along with her business ventures and devotion to health, wellness, and fitness.

It is because these oil peddlers connected their spirituality so closely with their careers that their sudden insistence that the company is now somehow anti-Christian has been so jarring. But according to the oilers, after years of success in Young Living they had begun to feel a darkness creep into the company and that’s what led them to leave.

Last week, Truitt kicked off the public drama when she posted a series of Instagram stories about issues she had had with Young Living. According to Truitt, after seven good years of selling Young Living and reaching the second-highest Diamond status, she and her husband began to feel like the company was “changing,” and not for the better. Truitt didn’t specify what these changes were, saying they “couldn’t really pinpoint it,” but “we heard things that didn’t really agree with our spirit.” After praying about it, they decided to resign from Young Living at the end of 2021.

“We knew that the Lord was calling us out of that,” she said.

Truitt said that, despite having resigned last fall, she received a “demonic” book in the mail earlier this month that she thought was sent from Young Living. She said the company had sent it to all its Diamond-level sellers and claimed that Mary Young, the wife of the late founder, had encouraged the leaders to read the book and pass it along to their downlines. The book, titled My Word Made Flesh, is cowritten by a self-help guru named Robert Tennyson Stevens, who runs a company called Mastery Systems (Stevens did not return a request for comment). Stevens describes himself on his website as a “masterful facilitator of individuals and organizations that choose to transform their lives into healthy, creative, loving and fulfilling experiences.” Stevens wrote the book with Vonn Harting, a Young Living Royal Crown Diamond who moonlights as a motivational speaker, and Young wrote the foreword.

The spokesperson for Young Living said Young’s choice to contribute to the book was separate from her role at the company.

“Mary Young’s choice to write a foreword stemmed from her own belief about the use of language to promote positive outcomes and her desire to support a friend,” they said. “She wrote her foreword prior to much of the book even being written based on the authors’ intent to teach people how to use positive language to help bring about change in their lives.”

I attempted to get a copy of My Word Made Flesh to see what it actually contained, but after placing an order for the $79 book on Mastery Systems’ website, my order was canceled and refunded with no explanation. My Word Made Flesh has now been scrubbed from the website.

According to Truitt, when she received the book and flipped through it, she was horrified.

“This book is one of the most darkest and demonic books I’ve ever had in my house,” she said. “I cannot wait to get rid of it but I had to share.”

In Truitt’s video, she reads from a book that she says is My Word Made Flesh. The “demonic” elements of the book, Truitt claimed, include encouraging people to do basically a “seance with oils” and telling them to repeat “I am the resurrection and the life of my lineage.” In the Bible, Jesus calls himself “the way, the truth and the life,” and says “no one comes to the Father [God] except through me.” To Christians like Truitt, she explained, the book’s phrasing is very offensive as it seems to imply you are supplanting Jesus’s spot.


“This book is one of the most darkest and demonic books I’ve ever had in my house."
“There’s nothing more false than that,” she says in her Instagram story. “Then taking Jesus out of it and putting yourself in there.”

Truitt warned “believers” who were still in Young Living that if they did what the company asked and brought the book into their household, “it will completely ruin you.”

“Leaders of Young Living, you received this book, and so if you are hiding this book from your teams you are condoning this evil,” she said. “And if you promote it, you need a serious heart check.”

“This is so much bigger than money, this is so much bigger than day-to-day life, this is eternal significance,” she said. “And you have to stand up and rise up and run from this.”

Vining soon posted on her Instagram stories in support of Truitt, saying that she was proud of Truitt for sharing “the truth.”

“Believers be discerning,” she wrote. “The enemy [Satan] prowls like a lion, and he can look (and smell) really good… this isn’t about a book. Though that book alone would have been a deal breaker for me… this is the tip of the iceberg on this issue.” Vining added she was praying for clarity to speak out more about her experience with Young Living but knew she had to denounce this “spiritual darkness.”

The reaction from Truitt’s community to her denouncement of Young Living was overwhelmingly supportive. Commenters praised her “braveness” and for speaking out against “evil.” One woman wrote she had considered signing up for Young Living but would not after seeing Truitt’s stories. People also slammed Young Living on social media after Truitt spoke out, saying they were blending “oils and the occult.”

“Am I the only Christian woman who is not surprised one bit that an essential oil company would come out as satanic?” wrote one.

Other Instagram accounts, like Christian podcast host Blake Guichet from @TheGirlNamedBlake, have been posting about how the company is “anti-Biblical.” Guichet had previously posted “deep dives” into the supposed darkness in Young Living and said she wasn’t surprised to see Truitt’s stories.

“I knew Young Living was into some dark stuff, and everyone thought I was crazy,” she said.

Since posting about the book, Truitt has erased all mention of her claims from her account. She continues to post memes about spiritual warfare, uploading a C.S. Lewis quote that reads: “There is no neutral ground in the universe. Every square inch, every split second is claimed by God, and counterclaimed by Satan.”

Both Truitt and Vining are now preaching the benefits of their new company Modere, which you can swipe up on their accounts to buy, or even sell, products from if you choose.

“God did design our bodies to move,” Truitt wrote on Instagram stories, adding, “I have been using Modere products for a while and it’s just been so different, my body feels so different… the youth is just flowing out of me.”

Meanwhile, Young Living’s social accounts have so far been silent on the controversy. They continue to post about the benefits of oils, encouraging their 1 million followers to “focus on you by taking some time out to practice mindfulness with your favorite essential oil blend.”

Their followers filled up their comments section with hearts. ●


Stephanie McNeal · Feb. 22, 2020

Stephanie McNeal is senior culture reporter for BuzzFeed News and is based in New York.
Contact Stephanie McNeal at stephanie.mcneal@buzzfeed.com.
Satan is a good topic for thread necromancy, amirite?