Wai Jia? Nei Jia?

[jack]

Why is arts like wing chun consider as wai jia (external art, 外家) & arts like tai ji consider as nei jia (inner art, 内家)?

Xing yi (形意) & ba gua (八卦) are also consider as nei jia arts but xing yi looks 'hard' too.

As for ba gua, it's also being divided into hard & soft types of ba gua. Cheng style (程式) ba gua is consider as soft ba gua & Yin style (尹式) ba gua is consider as hard ba gua.

But I have never heard people calling hard ba gua as wai jia before.

The line that separate wai jia & nei jia is blurred. Is there a need to categorise different arts into wai jia & nei jia?

[AmanuJRY]

Is there a need to categorise different arts into wai jia & nei jia?

IMHO, not really.

There are 'internal' and 'external' aspects to all arts, or 'internal' and 'external' elements can be applied to any art, therefore, catagorizing the different arts as internal or external, is hype.

[sihing]

Why is arts like wing chun consider as wai jia (external art, 外家) & arts like tai ji consider as nei jia (inner art, 内家)?

Xing yi (形意) & ba gua (八卦) are also consider as nei jia arts but xing yi looks 'hard' too.

As for ba gua, it's also being divided into hard & soft types of ba gua. Cheng style (程式) ba gua is consider as soft ba gua & Yin style (尹式) ba gua is consider as hard ba gua.

But I have never heard people calling hard ba gua as wai jia before.

The line that separate wai jia & nei jia is blurred. Is there a need to categorise different arts into wai jia & nei jia?

More marketing tactics to make a group feel special or superior to others.. I've heard remarks saying that the instructors or founders of a style/system would create more flowery forms to show the public to possibly intice them to join their organization or school, so even then there were trying to appeal to the eye rather than show their true colors.

James

P.S. What's external or internal supposed to mean anyways?? I do know of their meanings but really, when the fight lasts all but a few seconds do you think that it would really matter in the end. One rely's on more internal chi development and one is based on more muscle strength? Highly skilled Martial Artists from all styles use both IMO (and by chi I mean a finely tuned ability to control one's internal muscles and structure, not some esoteric secret source of power from within)

[Buddha_Fist]

Why is arts like wing chun consider as wai jia (external art, 外家) & arts like tai ji consider as nei jia (inner art, 内家)?

Xing yi (形意) & ba gua (八卦) are also consider as nei jia arts but xing yi looks 'hard' too.

As for ba gua, it's also being divided into hard & soft types of ba gua. Cheng style (程式) ba gua is consider as soft ba gua & Yin style (尹式) ba gua is consider as hard ba gua.

But I have never heard people calling hard ba gua as wai jia before.

The line that separate wai jia & nei jia is blurred. Is there a need to categorise different arts into wai jia & nei jia?

I second James on this one. Will my fist in your grill feel softer or harder depending on the amount of day-light? Hmmm.... :confused:

The world might never know!

[anerlich]

The definition of "internal" used by a Taiji/Xingyi/Bagua teacher I trained with for about 5 years had only an incidental relationship to "soft".

Rather, according to him, the "internal" arts are so categorised because they are based on Taoist principles of TCM (taiji - Yin/Yang, bagua - eight trigrams, xingyi - five elements), whereas other TCMA are based on animal movements, human biomechanics, and the like.

There are a number of problems with this definition, but I'm the messenger, don't take issue about it with me, you'll be wasting your time and mine.

Taiji is not soft. It is hard AND soft.

Xingyi can be as hard as a fist of diamond. But it's still internal by the above definition, whereas karate, WC, jiu jitsu, etc. are not. Aikido is an example of a "soft" art which is not internal - and so, arguably, is jiu jitsu.


Is there a need to categorise different arts into wai jia & nei jia?

Only if *you* think there is.

It could be argued, and is, that while the internal arts are based on "higher" principles. that doesn't necessarily mean they are practical in a fight. Few if any real combat situations have any airs of intellect or nobility about them.

[mantis108]

The definition of "internal" used by a Taiji/Xingyi/Bagua teacher I trained with for about 5 years had only an incidental relationship to "soft".

Rather, according to him, the "internal" arts are so categorised because they are based on Taoist principles of TCM (taiji - Yin/Yang, bagua - eight trigrams, xingyi - five elements), whereas other TCMA are based on animal movements, human biomechanics, and the like.

There are a number of problems with this definition, but I'm the messenger, don't take issue about it with me, you'll be wasting your time and mine.

Taiji is not soft. It is hard AND soft.

Xingyi can be as hard as a fist of diamond. But it's still internal by the above definition, whereas karate, WC, jiu jitsu, etc. are not. Aikido is an example of a "soft" art which is not internal - and so, arguably, is jiu jitsu.



Only if *you* think there is.

It could be argued, and is, that while the internal arts are based on "higher" principles. that doesn't necessarily mean they are practical in a fight. Few if any real combat situations have any airs of intellect or nobility about them.

I generally agreed with you on this. I recently read a book called "A Brief History of Myth" by Karen Armstrong who is one of my favorite writers. If you substitute the word myth with Kung Fu or Kung Fu form you will see a remarkable parallel between the two. Personally, a good myth (as well as Kung Fu) is not only for us to deal issues concerning morality and humanity but more importantly to address our perspective of mortality, after life, etc. Now of course, utilitarian would have different idea about Kung Fu where everything else except the training protocol for fighting strategy, tactics and techniques are relevant. I am not here to debate that other than pointing to the fact that it is at least the reason the worldview of Yijing (classic of change), which include the very holistic percept-concept of Qi, is often the front and center in traditional Kung Fu.

On a different note, I believe that Xingyi is likely branched off from ancient style of Fanziquan. The five phase fist (Wu Xing Chuan) is almost identical to Fanzi's Wu Hua Pao (Five Blossoms Pounding) which is said to contain most if not all of the technique needed to defeat any and all styles (as I am told). Curiously enough both styles acknowledge General Yue Fei as their progenitor.

Warm regards

Mantis108

PS I would think Aikido and BJJ as internal as Boxing, MMA, Kung Fu, etc... To say one style is internal and the other is not is an arguement based on focusing on the finger pointing to the moon. It is totally missing the heavenly glory that which an awaken human being is capable of beholding.

[Liddel]

I always thought that these were really simplistic terms in nature, to just give a brief idea or overview of the characteristics of an art to an outsider.

It is easier to explain what the crux of an art is in a few words rather than sit down and have someone discuss the entire history to you, which with the way i bable on could take ages....:eek:

We all know that this is not really a good way do describe individual arts but i think its supposed to be from a begginers POV. :rolleyes:

FWIW i was told that the external arts are mainly the northern styles because north china has many mountains and is for the most part very cold so that environment fostered larger actions like jumping and Long Fist tech's to get the blood pumping and warm you up as well as being for fighting....

Conversly the south is warmer and flatter so the environment influenced shorter less 'wild' actions etc....

Although i do really like the example put foward by Anerlich - both KINDA make sence. :rolleyes:

Weather you agree or not (and this is not meant to explain every art -because there as so many and some fall in the GREY area) it is an interesting though about how the environment influenced Kung Fu. :)

[anerlich]

To say one style is internal and the other is not is an arguement based on focusing on the finger pointing to the moon. It is totally missing the heavenly glory that which an awaken human being is capable of beholding.

Indeed ... the insistence on categorisation and pigeonholing in effect destroys the essence and vitality.

Enough philosophy, lets go back to arguing about lineage and the best type of latte :D

[anerlich]

FWIW i was told that the external arts are mainly the northern styles because north china has many mountains and is for the most part very cold so that environment fostered larger actions like jumping and Long Fist tech's to get the blood pumping and warm you up as well as being for fighting....

Conversly the south is warmer and flatter so the environment influenced shorter less 'wild' actions etc....

Sounds valid ... I was told the Northern styles had the big moves because they had lots of open space, whereas the Southern styles developed in crowded areas with less room to move, and from around ports where people spent lots of time on sampans and other boats that made stable stances a must and high kicking a foolhardy enterprise.

I couldn't see TKD getting you a long way on the red boats ;)

[jack]

Quote:
Rather, according to him, the "internal" arts are so categorised because they are based on Taoist principles of TCM (taiji - Yin/Yang, bagua - eight trigrams, xingyi - five elements), whereas other TCMA are based on animal movements, human biomechanics, and the like.

Does that mean any arts that had Taoist principles in it will be considered as internal arts too?
Taiji, xingyi & bagua like other tcma do had animal movements, human biomechanics too.

Quote:
On a different note, I believe that Xingyi is likely branched off from ancient style of Fanziquan. The five phase fist (Wu Xing Chuan) is almost identical to Fanzi's Wu Hua Pao (Five Blossoms Pounding) which is said to contain most if not all of the technique needed to defeat any and all styles (as I am told). Curiously enough both styles acknowledge General Yue Fei as their progenitor.

Xingyi was actually branched off from XinYiLiuHeQuan(心意六合拳) created by Ji Long Ke in the later years of ming dynasty(明末山西浦州人姬際可(字龍峰或隆風)). He was good in spear fighting but later decided to combined spear fighting with unarmed combat fighting into one for the use during peace time.

Today, his descendants still lived in mainland china, shanxi province, yong ji county, zhang ying town, zun village (山西省永濟縣張營鄉尊村).

Making patriotic general Yue Fei of the song dynasty as the founder of xingyi is just a hearsay & this was also a good form of advertisement to promoted xingyi & xinyiliuhe too.

Quote:
FWIW i was told that the external arts are mainly the northern styles because north china has many mountains and is for the most part very cold so that environment fostered larger actions like jumping and Long Fist tech's to get the blood pumping and warm you up as well as being for fighting....

Conversly the south is warmer and flatter so the environment influenced shorter less 'wild' actions etc....

Quote:
Sounds valid ... I was told the Northern styles had the big moves because they had lots of open space, whereas the Southern styles developed in crowded areas with less room to move, and from around ports where people spent lots of time on sampans and other boats that made stable stances a must and high kicking a foolhardy enterprise.

Not entirely true.
Taiji, xingyi & bagua all came from china’s northern region. Southern styles do have high kicking & flying kicks. Even taiji does have flying kicks too. But they were advice not to use it frequently cos it might cost you your balancing.

If your opponent is good at interceding kicks & push you down on the ground. You’re in trouble. That’s why a lot of tcma couldn’t handle arts like bjj in the beginning. Cos many tcma fight by standing on their feet & try to keep their balances, except for arts like shuai jiao (摔跤), shaolin dog fists (少林狗拳) & other di tang fists (地趟拳).

[ntc]

In China, Internal Styles ("Nei Jia") is termed so because it is primarily uses "Nei Gong" (internal energy), which means it uses more soft power versus External Styles ("Wei Jia"), which uses more hard, physical power ("Wei Gong"). Nei Jia styles tend to do soft blocks, redirection, and absorption, rather than the hard physical blocks from the Wei Jia styles. Also, Nei Jia styles are softer (like Tai Chi, Hsing Yi, Pagua) when compared to the Wei Jia styles like Hung Gar, Lo Han Quan, etc. Generally speaking, Nei Jia styles also deliver power with muscles relaxed, while Wei Jia deliver power with tensed muscles.

We also try to understand the characteristics of the style, Nei Jia vs Wei Jia, so that we will know which techniques would be more effective against it. A lot is based on Yin and Yang... Yin to subdue Yang, and Yang to subdue Yin. We have a Chinese saying.... "Yee Yau Tsai Gong" --> "Use soft to subdue hard". This yin/yang theory is a very key combat strategy in most Chinese martial arts.

[sihing]

In China, we Internal Styles ("Nei Jia") is termed so because it is primarily uses "Nei Gong" (internal energy), which means it uses more soft power versus External Styles ("Wei Jia"), which uses more hard, physical power ("Wei Gong"). Nei Jia styles tend to do soft blocks, redirection, and absorption, rather than the hard physical blocks from the Wei Jia styles. Also, Nei Jia styles are softer (like Tai Chi, Hsing Yi, Pagua) when compared to the Wei Jia styles like Hung Gar, Lo Han Quan, etc. Generally speaking, Nei Jia styles also deliver power with muscles relaxed, while Wei Jia deliver power with tensed muscles.

We also try to understand the characteristics of the style, Nei Jia vs Wei Jia, so that we will know which techniques would be more effective against it. A lot is based on Yin and Yang... Yin to subdue Yang, and Yang to subdue Yin. We have a Chinese saying.... "Yee Yau Tsai Gong" --> "Use soft to subdue hard". This yin/yang theory is a very key combat strategy in most Chinese martial arts.

Define "Internal Energy & Soft Power". What is it and how is it used. I'm curious to know how you define it and it's useage, as I do have my own thoughts on the subject..Is it possible to use power in a soft or hard Manner? I realize the difference between force vs force as compared to redirecting energy coming towards you, but how does that negate the fact that everyone needs to use their muscles to move any part of their body.

James

[ntc]

James,

I understand your question. It is hard to explain hard power versus soft power..... much easier to show in person, but I will try. I think the best way to describe "soft power" is that first of all, the energy is initiated from some part of the body, usually the hips, but this depends on the style. This energy is then transferred downwards to the ground, rebound back up, and then relayed from one joint to another in orderly sequence (ground - foot - knee - shoulder - elbow - and finally to the fist delivering the blow). This energy is relayed along the path with all the muscles relaxed, but the joints all work in almost simulatneous torque, hence the resulting energy sent into the opponent is magnified as it is passed from one joint to another. Here, it is important for the muscles to be relaxed in order for the energy transfer and build-up to be smooth and increasingly stronger... tense muscles along this path will hinder the progression. This is why you see some of the sudden, explosive punches in Chen style, for example, where, via silk reeling, the energy is torqued all the way to the fist... to the outsider, it looks like a sudden, explosive punch from a very soft, relaxed position... despite the explosiveness of the punch, the muscles will still look relaxed.

Probably the best way to describe what being hit by soft power is like is to akin it to a bow and arrow.... when the arrow is released, it is straight, true, direct, and focused... there is nothing holding it back from its flight path... no muscles, etc. This is what happens when a "soft" punch is thrown.. no muscles or tension holding it back. A "hard" punch is usually thrown with most of the muscles in the fist, forearm, upperarm, and even the shoulders all tensed up. In the "soft" punch, the fist is usually relaxed, but controlled, and is only momentarily tensed up at the point of contact, and then relaxed again. The person receiving the blow from a "soft punch" will feel a very intense, sharp, and focused hit that causes more damage internally versus a more superficial blow which causes bruising in the surface. The person receiving a "hard" punch will generally feel pain over a larger surface area at the point of contact, but the pain tends to be more at the surface levels under the skin versus deeper in the body.

I am not sure if what I said makes sense or not.... it is difficult to explain in words how it feels. Hopefully, I was successful in at least conveying what it might feel like, or what a "soft" punch is considered.

[mantis108]

Quote:
Rather, according to him, the "internal" arts are so categorised because they are based on Taoist principles of TCM (taiji - Yin/Yang, bagua - eight trigrams, xingyi - five elements), whereas other TCMA are based on animal movements, human biomechanics, and the like.

Yin-yang, Bagua, Wuxing, etc... as Chinese archtypical worldview is not solely developed or owned by Daoists. In fact, it is the Shamans who first developed this model. Then it when through the pre-historic King (ie Fu Hsi) and dynastic scholars (ie Lao Zi, Confucius, Chen Tuan, Zhu Zi etc). Confucius is credited as the main editor of the Zhou Yi otherwise known as Yijing (classic of change). Since his time 2 prominent groups of scholars - Confucians (philosophical) and Daoists (mystical) further develop Yijing into "applicable scientific model". This model is found in Chinese medicine, pugilism, divination (not equivalent of fortune telling), etc... Most of the scholars working on the Yijing today are philosophical because of the influence of Song dynasty Confucian scholar Zhu Zi's curriculum being adopted in the Ming dynasty government academy. The Daoist mystical approach is mainly found in the medical and martial arts communities.


Does that mean any arts that had Taoist principles in it will be considered as internal arts too? Taiji, xingyi & bagua like other tcma do had animal movements, human biomechanics too.

Daoism is more of a mystical approach. Arts like Taiji, Bagua, and Xingyi (the big three) are more directly dealing with the application of the Chinese archtypical worldview (CAW). This is not to say that animal styles don't have that worldview. In fact Shandong Tanglangqaun (Northern Mantis), Fujian Baihe (Fujian White Crane), Dongjiang Longxing (East River Dragon Style), they are all about applying the said worldview. Wing Chun and Hung Gar IMHO are both relatives of the Fujian Baihe family; thus, it's just as internal as the big three at least theoretically. So... If a martial arts (ie boxing) that doesn't use the archtypical worldview to formulate it's teaching, I don't think we can "name" it internal per se. Having said that it doesn't mean that the physical movememts of said art theoretically can not be explained with the CAW.


Quote:
On a different note, I believe that Xingyi is likely branched off from ancient style of Fanziquan. The five phase fist (Wu Xing Chuan) is almost identical to Fanzi's Wu Hua Pao (Five Blossoms Pounding) which is said to contain most if not all of the technique needed to defeat any and all styles (as I am told). Curiously enough both styles acknowledge General Yue Fei as their progenitor.

Xingyi was actually branched off from XinYiLiuHeQuan(心意六合拳) created by Ji Long Ke in the later years of ming dynasty(明末山西浦州人姬際可(字龍峰或隆風)). He was good in spear fighting but later decided to combined spear fighting with unarmed combat fighting into one for the use during peace time.

Today, his descendants still lived in mainland china, shanxi province, yong ji county, zhang ying town, zun village (山西省永濟縣張營鄉尊村).

Thank you for the information. As far as my limited understanding of Xinyi Liuhe goes, it is primarily a Muslim art. The influence of Muslim community to the Chinese history and culture is often down played. XYLH is a good example of that IMHO. BTW, Believe it or not Islamic ideas were blended with the grass root religious believes of Buddism and Daoism to form the belief system of cult militias. Some people believe that Cha Quan, Tan Tui, XYLH, etc are all Muslim. Tongbi like other "foreign arts" could be of Muslim origin that migrated from west to Shanxi, Henan province (southward) and then upto Hebei (northward), Shandong (northeastward). This would IMHO explain the "long fist" dynamics as oppose to the "short strike" dynamics that possible originated from the Yang Tze river region (Jiangnan). Short strikes styles such as Fanzi, Cho Jiao, etc.. migrated northward to Henan and then Hebei, Shandong, etc but more importantly it further move deep south to Fujian and Guangdong regions. This 2 main migrating patterns are what I believe to be worth looking into as TCMA developement in general.

In reality, Chinese "internalized" or rather naturalized "foreign arts" with its archtypical worldview is what I am getting at.


Making patriotic general Yue Fei of the song dynasty as the founder of xingyi is just a hearsay & this was also a good form of advertisement to promoted xingyi & xinyiliuhe too.

I would agree on that.


Quote:
FWIW i was told that the external arts are mainly the northern styles because north china has many mountains and is for the most part very cold so that environment fostered larger actions like jumping and Long Fist tech's to get the blood pumping and warm you up as well as being for fighting....

Conversly the south is warmer and flatter so the environment influenced shorter less 'wild' actions etc....

I am sorry. I really can't agreed to this rather superficial assumption. But I don't have the time to present an arguement at this point.


Quote:
Sounds valid ... I was told the Northern styles had the big moves because they had lots of open space, whereas the Southern styles developed in crowded areas with less room to move, and from around ports where people spent lots of time on sampans and other boats that made stable stances a must and high kicking a foolhardy enterprise.

Again this is related to the migrating patterns of the arts. I would like to come back to this later if you don't mind.


Not entirely true.
Taiji, xingyi & bagua all came from china’s northern region. Southern styles do have high kicking & flying kicks. Even taiji does have flying kicks too. But they were advice not to use it frequently cos it might cost you your balancing.

Exactly.


If your opponent is good at interceding kicks & push you down on the ground. You’re in trouble. That’s why a lot of tcma couldn’t handle arts like bjj in the beginning. Cos many tcma fight by standing on their feet & try to keep their balances, except for arts like shuai jiao (摔跤), shaolin dog fists (少林狗拳) & other di tang fists (地趟拳).

No comment at this point.

Regards

Mantis108

[anerlich]

Not entirely true.
Taiji, xingyi & bagua all came from china’s northern region. Southern styles do have high kicking & flying kicks. Even taiji does have flying kicks too. But they were advice not to use it frequently cos it might cost you your balancing.


I related what I'd heard, I didn't say I necessarily agreed with it. As others have said, people travelled extensively and there was quite a bit of cross-fertilisation. Also, as you say, the differences are more like trends or tendencies rather than clear cul distinctions, with plenty of exceptions.

There are a number of definitions of "internal". Mine (from a high level practitioner of taiji and xingyi/bagua and Taiwan-trained doctor of acupuncture and TCM) is one, ntc's is another.

As for the various quality distinctions of movement, I've seen them applied equally well by skilled surfers and skateboarders equally as much as MA's. Nothing mystical here, unless you really have to make it so.

[sihing]

James,

I understand your question. It is hard to explain hard power versus soft power..... much easier to show in person, but I will try. I think the best way to describe "soft power" is that first of all, the energy is initiated from some part of the body, usually the hips, but this depends on the style. This energy is then transferred downwards to the ground, rebound back up, and then relayed from one joint to another in orderly sequence (ground - foot - knee - shoulder - elbow - and finally to the fist delivering the blow). This energy is relayed along the path with all the muscles relaxed, but the joints all work in almost simulatneous torque, hence the resulting energy sent into the opponent is magnified as it is passed from one joint to another. Here, it is important for the muscles to be relaxed in order for the energy transfer and build-up to be smooth and increasingly stronger... tense muscles along this path will hinder the progression. This is why you see some of the sudden, explosive punches in Chen style, for example, where, via silk reeling, the energy is torqued all the way to the fist... to the outsider, it looks like a sudden, explosive punch from a very soft, relaxed position... despite the explosiveness of the punch, the muscles will still look relaxed.

Probably the best way to describe what being hit by soft power is like is to akin it to a bow and arrow.... when the arrow is released, it is straight, true, direct, and focused... there is nothing holding it back from its flight path... no muscles, etc. This is what happens when a "soft" punch is thrown.. no muscles or tension holding it back. A "hard" punch is usually thrown with most of the muscles in the fist, forearm, upperarm, and even the shoulders all tensed up. In the "soft" punch, the fist is usually relaxed, but controlled, and is only momentarily tensed up at the point of contact, and then relaxed again. The person receiving the blow from a "soft punch" will feel a very intense, sharp, and focused hit that causes more damage internally versus a more superficial blow which causes bruising in the surface. The person receiving a "hard" punch will generally feel pain over a larger surface area at the point of contact, but the pain tends to be more at the surface levels under the skin versus deeper in the body.

I am not sure if what I said makes sense or not.... it is difficult to explain in words how it feels. Hopefully, I was successful in at least conveying what it might feel like, or what a "soft" punch is considered.

ntc,

Good explaination, and I have felt this punch before recently in LA. This is very similar to the explaination Sifu Lam gives regarding the WC punching movements he uses in his art, everything starts from the Ground up thru the power points (ankle, knee, hip, shoulder, elbow, wrist) in unison. So I guess Wing Chun is a soft art Internal art then...

James

[ntc]

Thanks, James.

In Hong Kong, there are still many people who have heard of WC but who really don't know what Wing Chun is all about... most are more familiar with Hung Gar, Lung Ying, Choy Lay Fut, Shaolin Quan, etc. because of the longer period in the public of these arts. You will see some people referring to WC as internal and some referring to it as external. A lot depended on the person's individual understanding of the art and, as has been discussed by a number of people on this thread, what that individual's definition of internal versus external was. From my own standpoint, I consider YIp Man WC (I am not a subject matter expert of Futshan WC and other WC lineages, and so cannot comment on those) very much an internal art, and I consider styles like Hung Gar, Karate, Taekwondo, etc. as external arts. But at the same time, I also feel that every internal art will have its external component, just as much as each external art having its internal component.... ie, yin within yang, and yang within yin, to complete the Tao.

[jack]

Yin-yang, Bagua, Wuxing, etc... as Chinese archtypical worldview is not solely developed or owned by Daoists. In fact, it is the Shamans who first developed this model. Then it when through the pre-historic King (ie Fu Hsi) and dynastic scholars (ie Lao Zi, Confucius, Chen Tuan, Zhu Zi etc). Confucius is credited as the main editor of the Zhou Yi otherwise known as Yijing (classic of change). Since his time 2 prominent groups of scholars - Confucians (philosophical) and Daoists (mystical) further develop Yijing into "applicable scientific model". This model is found in Chinese medicine, pugilism, divination (not equivalent of fortune telling), etc... Most of the scholars working on the Yijing today are philosophical because of the influence of Song dynasty Confucian scholar Zhu Zi's curriculum being adopted in the Ming dynasty government academy. The Daoist mystical approach is mainly found in the medical and martial arts communities.



Daoism is more of a mystical approach. Arts like Taiji, Bagua, and Xingyi (the big three) are more directly dealing with the application of the Chinese archtypical worldview (CAW). This is not to say that animal styles don't have that worldview. In fact Shandong Tanglangqaun (Northern Mantis), Fujian Baihe (Fujian White Crane), Dongjiang Longxing (East River Dragon Style), they are all about applying the said worldview. Wing Chun and Hung Gar IMHO are both relatives of the Fujian Baihe family; thus, it's just as internal as the big three at least theoretically. So... If a martial arts (ie boxing) that doesn't use the archtypical worldview to formulate it's teaching, I don't think we can "name" it internal per se. Having said that it doesn't mean that the physical movememts of said art theoretically can not be explained with the CAW.



Thank you for the information. As far as my limited understanding of Xinyi Liuhe goes, it is primarily a Muslim art. The influence of Muslim community to the Chinese history and culture is often down played. XYLH is a good example of that IMHO. BTW, Believe it or not Islamic ideas were blended with the grass root religious believes of Buddism and Daoism to form the belief system of cult militias. Some people believe that Cha Quan, Tan Tui, XYLH, etc are all Muslim. Tongbi like other "foreign arts" could be of Muslim origin that migrated from west to Shanxi, Henan province (southward) and then upto Hebei (northward), Shandong (northeastward). This would IMHO explain the "long fist" dynamics as oppose to the "short strike" dynamics that possible originated from the Yang Tze river region (Jiangnan). Short strikes styles such as Fanzi, Cho Jiao, etc.. migrated northward to Henan and then Hebei, Shandong, etc but more importantly it further move deep south to Fujian and Guangdong regions. This 2 main migrating patterns are what I believe to be worth looking into as TCMA developement in general.

In reality, Chinese "internalized" or rather naturalized "foreign arts" with its archtypical worldview is what I am getting at.


Regards

Mantis108


1
Latest research claimed by Yi tribe researchers that ancient Daoism originated from the minority race, Yi tribe (彜族) living in southern parts of mainland china. Pre-historic King like Fu His (伏羲, Fu Xi) was their tribesman. Ancient Yi tribe worshipped tiger. They Liked black color & left direction. In the tribe, females are the ones who are in charge.
Stuff misinterpreted unknown by Confucius & Daoists are reinterpret again by these Yi tribe researchers.
For this topic, there’s too much stuff to write. Perhaps I will write on this topic at later time.

2
Actually, the terms: Nei Jia & Wai Jia came from Huang Zong Yi (黃宗義) of Ming dynasty. I don’t think animal movements & human biomechanics are involved.

3
XinYiLiuHeQuan was later spilt into 3 sects. They are ShanXi style, HeBei style (河北) & HeNan style (河南)。ShanXi style & HeBei style are more alike with each other. HeNan style is different from them.
I think the founder of HeNan style is a Muslim called Ma Xue Li (馬學禮). Ma Xue Li was from the minority race, Hui tribe (囘族). Hui tribe is a Muslim tribe in China. HeNan style’s theory is greatly based on a Daoism book titled Shou Dong Chen Ji (守洞塵技).

HeNan style is consider as a Muslim style whereby its founder & its’ many practitioners are Muslim. Many Hui tribesmen stayed in HeNan province. The minority race, Hui tribe & the majority race, Han tribe (漢族) don’t get along well with each other. Last year, polices & soldiers were activated to suppressed the riot when a big fight broke out between them in HeNan province.

HeBei style’s founder is Li Luo Neng (李洛能).

HeBei style’s lineage: Ji Long Ke – Cao Ji Wu (曹繼武) – Dai Long Bang (戴龍邦) - Li Luo Neng (李洛能)

HeNan style ‘s lineage: Ji Long Ke – Cao Ji Wu (曹繼武) - Ma Xue Li (馬學禮)


Hope I kept you entertained. :)

[jack]

《王征南墓誌銘》

作者 黃宗羲(明、哲學家、文學家、歷史學家)

「少林以拳勇名天下。然主於搏人。人亦得以乘之。有所謂內家者。以靜制動。犯者應手即仆。故別少林為外家。 蓋起於宋之張三峰。三峰為武當丹士。徽宗召之。道梗不得進。夜夢玄帝授之拳法。厥明以單丁殺賊 百餘。

三峰之術。百年之後。流傳於陜西。而王宗為最著。溫州陳州同。從王宗受之。以此教其鄉人。由是流傳於溫州。 嘉靖間張松溪為最著。松溪之徒三四人，而四明葉繼美近泉為之魁。由是流傳於四明。四明得近泉之傳者。為吳崑 山、周雲泉、單思南、陳貞石、孫繼槎。皆各有授受。崑山傳李天目、徐岱岳。天目傳余波仲、吳七郎、陳茂弘。 雲泉傳盧紹岐。貞石傳董扶輿、夏枝溪。繼槎傳柴玄明、姚石門、僧耳、僧尾。而思南之傳。則為王 征南。

思南從征關白。歸老於家。以其術教授。然精微所在。則亦深自秘惜。掩關而理。學子皆不得見。征南從樓上穴板 窺之。得梗概。思南子不肖。思南自傷身後莫之經紀。征南聞之。以銀數器。奉為美檟之資。思南感其意。始盡 以不傳者傳之。

征南為人機警。得傳之後。絕不露圭角。非遇甚困則不發。嘗夜出偵事。為守兵所獲。反接廊柱。數十人轟飲守之 。征南拾碎磁偷割其縛。探懷中銀望空而擲。數十人方爭攫。征南遂逸出。數十人追之。皆地匍匐不能起。行數 里。迷道田間。守望者又以為賊也。聚眾圍之。征南所向。眾無不受傷者。
歲暮獨行。遇營兵七八人。挽之負重。征南苦辭求免。不聽。征南至橋上。棄其負。營兵援刀擬之。征南手格。而 營兵自擲仆地。鏗然刀墮。如是者數人。最後取其刀投之井中。營兵索綆出刀。而征南之去遠矣。

凡搏人皆以其穴。死穴。暈穴。啞穴。一切如銅人圖法。有惡少辱之者。為征南所擊。其人數日不溺。踵門謝過。 使得如故。牧童竊學其法。以擊伴侶。立死。征南視之曰。此暈穴也。不久當甦。已而果然。

征南任俠。嘗為人報讎。然激於不平而後為之。有與征南久故者。致金以讎其弟。征南毅然絕之。曰。此以禽獸待 我也。

征南名來咸。姓王氏。征南其字也。自奉化來鄞。祖宗周。父宰元。母陳氏。世居城東之車橋。至征南而徙同嶴。 少時隸盧海道若騰。海道較藝給糧。征南嘗兼數人。直指行部。征南七矢破的。補臨山把總。錢忠介公建□以中軍 統營事。屢立戰功。授都督僉事副總兵官。事敗。猶與華兵部勾致島人。藥書往復。兵部受禍。讎首未懸。征南終 身菜食。以明此志。識者哀之。

征南罷事家居。慕其才藝者。以為貧必易致。營將皆通慇懃。而征南漠然不顧。鋤地擔糞。若不知己之所長。有易 於求食者在也。一日。過其故人。故人與營將同居。方延松江教師講習武藝。教師倨坐。彈三絃。視征南麻巾縕袍 若無有。故人為言征南善拳法。教師斜盼之。曰。若亦能此乎。征南謝不敏。教師軒衣張眉曰。亦可小試之乎。征 南固謝不敏。教師以其畏己也。強之愈力。征南不得已而應。教師被跌。請復之。再跌而流血破面。教師乃下拜。 贄以二縑。

征南未嘗讀書。然與士大夫談論。則蘊藉可喜。了不見其為麤人也。余弟晦木嘗揭之見錢牧翁。牧翁亦甚奇之。當 其貧困無聊不以為苦。而以得見牧翁。得交余兄弟。沾沾自喜。其好事如此。

予嘗與之入天童。僧山燄有膂力。四五人不能掣其手。稍近征南。則蹶然負痛。征南曰。今人以內家無可眩耀。於 是以外家攙入之。此學行當衰矣。因許敘其源流。

忽忽九載。征南以哭子死。高辰四狀其行。求予誌之。余遂敘之於此。豈諾時意之所及乎。生於某年丁巳三月五日 。卒於某年己酉二月九日。年五十三。娶孫氏。子二人。夢得前一月殤。次祖德以某月某日葬於同嶴 之陽。

銘曰。有技如斯。而不一施。終不鬻技。其志可悲。水淺山老。孤墳孰保。視此銘章。庶幾有考。」


*It is written in an ancient way. Sorry, this is too difficult for me to do translation.