Just a lil quote

[prana]

I heard a great quote yesterday, I thought I would share.

"The great feet of speech, puts the parrots behind bars, whilst the other birds fly free"

[joedoe]

So the parrot's feet fly away while the rest of it stay behind bars?

I know, I know, you meant feat :)

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
You're fu(king up my chi

[joedoe]

Actually, I interpreted it to mean that those who take the liberty of speech but simply parrot what others say are putting themselves in a prison of sorts because they never really free their mind. They are too busy repeating what other people have said to them to stop and take time to think for themselves.

And I can be an idiot all I want :D

Hey, where did Drunken Monkey's post go?????

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
You're fu(king up my chi

[Kristoffer]

birds r cool

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

[shaolinboxer]

Parrots do not have the gift of speech. The have the ability to mimic vocalizations.

[Chang Style Novice]

Actually, I read in a magazine years ago that some scientists had found that at least one parrot could actually talk. The bird had learned the names of different colors and materials, distinguish them from each other, and even put them into new combinations! For example, it asked for "red skin" when it had only seen other colors of leather toys before. This bird knew a noun from an adjective! Not bad, right? I know a few college freshmen who can't do that.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[JWTAYLOR]

Many African Grey Parrots have been taught to do things like that. They are amazing birds. They can even do simple arithmetic.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[Dragon Warrior]

"they can even do simple arithmetic"

lol, you got to be kidding me, i cant believe you actually believe that. :rolleyes:

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Chang Style Novice]

JWT -

I know some college freshmen who can't do simple arithmetic either! Do you think one of these parrots could fill out a student loan application?

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[shaolinboxer]

Well, then. Maybe some birds do talk.

Fascinating.

[cwheelie]

maybe it was an X parrot....

de ja fu - The feeling that somewhere, somehow you've been kicked in the head like this before.

[Kung Lek]

I think we humans suffer from short sightedness in our understanding of what the other creatures of this planet can and cannot do.

Without a doubt in my mind, I find humans to be one of the more ignorant inhabitants of the planet. This is plain to see when considring how well we "fit in" with the environments we live in.

precious few of us still harmonize with the world on a societal level.

How many of us can learn to communicate with parrots? :)

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[Dragon Warrior]

parrots cant do arithmetic man.

they mimick sounds of their environment, they cannot logically put together sentences and the like. If a parrot does seem to have these qualities, it is probably some sort of trick the trainer has accomplished.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[JWTAYLOR]

DW, maybe, but it has been a special on cognative development on PBS numerous times.

It shows an African Grey, with numerous blocks of different colors on two trays.

The owners, (a zoo) put a couple of red blocks on one tray, and a couple of green blocks on another tray.

They hold up one tray of reb blocks and ask, "how many red blocks?" The parrot gives the correct answer. Then they put that tray away. Then, when the other tray is not in view of the parrot, they hold up another tray of green blocks and ask, "how many green blocks?" Again, correct answer. Then they ask, "how many red and green blocks", the parrots gives the sum of both trays, even though he can only see the green. They did this with numerous variations, and as long as the sum wasn't over 6 or 7, the parrot was always right.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[Kung Lek]

dragon warrior, I have nothing to say about a parrots math abilties.

But can you fly and subsist on strictly what is provided by the world?

Neither can I :)

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[Braden]

DW - Why don't you check for yourself? Go to your local university library, find a computer terminal, and do a periodical search.

I'm not sure why you're so convinced they CAN'T do this task, it is a ridiculously primitive task, and parrot's brains are, relatively speaking, extremely evolved; in some ways superior to ours.

[Chang Style Novice]

Dragon Warrior is just in a sh!t stirring mood today. He has apparently decided that if he hasn't already seen it for himself, it can't possibly be real. See the aikido thread for further examples, and the way he and Ralek are getting in a circle-jerk over UFC tapes.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[Dragon Warrior]

"I'm not sure why you're so convinced they CAN'T do this task, it is a ridiculously primitive task, and parrot's brains are, relatively speaking, extremely evolved; in some ways superior to ours."

hahhahahahahaahhahahha, are you serious, do i even have to argue about this. parrot's brains are not superior to ours. Parrots are "smart" in the sense that they can mimick sounds.

They had this same type of argument about a horse that used to add. The scientist eventually figured out that the horse couldnt add, it was a trick that the trainer of the horse used to make it seem like the horse could add.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Dragon Warrior]

i see that you are very experienced in martial arts, and have probably sparred a lot of aikido practioners, that is why you know they are such good fighters.

Do you have conversations with parrots also, that must be why you know their brains are in some ways superior to ours.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Chang Style Novice]

None is so blind as he who will not see.

I am not greatly experienced in either martial arts or ornithological linguistics. However, I keep an open mind and try to learn things for myself rather than dismiss them out of hand with no experience or evidence.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[Shaolindynasty]

Seriously though. Like adding is an important skill in REAL living I agree with Kung lek. We as humans have bulit an artificial fantasy of what life and living is and we get ****her and ****her from the earth in it's real sense every day. This kind of reminds me of that movie with Cuba Jr. with the guy who lived in the jungle with the apes,no not Tarzan but I can't remember the title. Anyway I think the way we judge every thing else by our intellectual standerds is funny. we think we are the smartest when we are the most ignorant

New classes New online Catalog
www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[Dragon Warrior]

i agree that you have to be open minded
i am not throwing out the fact that it might be possible for parrots to talk and do math(lol), but i am not going to go tell my friends that there is proof parrots brains are superior to ours, in some ways (lol @ braden)

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[KC Elbows]

ShaolinDynasty: The movie is Instinct(Anthony Hopkins is the guy living in the jungle).

Dragon Warrior:
Actually, arithmetic is a simple task. The case of the horse you are talking about does not disprove anything but that one case. Our brains are great and all, but they are not the most developed brains on the planet, and the really complex parts of our brains do not necessarily deal with what you might think of as the height of intelligence. Emotion has been studied in a large number of species, and the cues and range of emotion don't appear to differ between mammals, birds, fish, all the way down to invertabrates. Our advantage is a combination between tool use and higher brain function(versus dolphins, who probably have much higher brain power, but no thumbs). However, our biggest advantage is the ability to form a recorded history, so that all our knowledge is documented and accessible to a degree. Adding is not a particularly impossible task, and I would not be surprised if a parrot could be taught it.

A friend of mine is an anthropologist who specializes in primates. She was studying a particular type of ape at one point, I unfortunately don't remember the name of this ape, but they are a very group oriented breed, and extremely tactical in behavior, especially as far as territorial disputes are concerned, down to ambushes, red herrings, etc. Anyway, I commented that its a good thing they can't use guns, and she pointed out that their experiences in the jungle had taught them the concept of range in a firearm, and they knew quite well when they were in range of a hunter. In fact, they never knowingly allowed a human to be in range, unarmed or not. She then pointed out that the idea of range was all they needed. Their brains could easily understand the concept of pulling a trigger, aiming was more difficult but still well within their mental capabilities, and reloading would be none too difficult to teach them. They already had superb group tactics and senses superior to ours, so armed they would be a special ops man's worst nightmare. Not suggesting arming them or parrots, just an interesting topic.

[Dragon Warrior]

the hole thing about dolphins brains is a myth. They do not have the brain power humans do. I cant believe you people are saying things like this.

The thumb and use of tools is why human beings are able to space travel. Our brain power has nothing to do with it, if dolphins had thumbs, they could space travel to. :rolleyes:

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Kung Lek]

Nothing worse than a crow, or a parrot with a machine gun! :D

The "primal" brain in most creatures is very similar in structure. It is the Neo cortex that provides us with higher functions.

Humans also have specialized centers in the brain that are not present in other species.

we all share the planet and nothing "owns" anything. Nor do we really in a true sense have "dominion" over anything except by our own definitions derived by our ability to capture, subjigate, enslave, kill and destroy.

Not to many creatures outside of humans kill for sport. very few.
Outside of humans and the insect world there aren't too many cases of dominance over other species except in a food chain definition.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[KC Elbows]

What is your evidence for the dolphin brain being inferior to ours? I could be incorrect, but my understanding was that the areas related to higher thinking are larger in dolphins.

[KC Elbows]

And kung lek, the real fear is that hummingbirds might have gotten some cheap machine guns after the fall of the soviet union. With their hovering power, flower gardens all over the world might become deathtraps.

[Dragon Warrior]

kung lek
we are talking about animal intelligence, not the moral acts of animals.

Dolphins are "smart" when you compare them to other animals, but there is no evidence that suggest dolphins think. The only animals in the world that is proven to think are humans. The ability for other animals to think is under debate, mainly because there is no actual proof.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[KC Elbows]

Actually, Dragon Warrior, if the thumb and tool use are the reason for space travel, why aren't we running into capsules from Chimpanzia? That argument does not work, sorry.

Guys, I'm starting to think that Dragon Warrior is actually one of the thinktanks we always hear about, you know, a room full of monkeys creating posts on kung fu online as part of some experiment showing how many monkeys it takes to post on kung fu online.

[KC Elbows]

Sorry, dude, but one needs to watch a dog for ten minutes to establish that it thinks. I've heard of no credible authority who suggests that animals don't think, but if you know one, please share.

[Dragon Warrior]

i was being sarcastic when i said that tools and thumbs are the reason for space travel. I am trying to show you that our minds are the reason for space travel.

And, you are attacking me for what reason?? Because i told you that dolphins dont think, and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Kung Lek]

Kc, he hasn't written "the blurst of times" yet, so I don't think dw represents 100 monkeys with 100 typewriters :D

still, DW, proven to think? By what standard? Again, I do my best to not anthropomorphize other creatures. They are what they are and for the most part they clearly display that it is they who maintain harmony with the world around them and we (humans) who consistantly display a lacking in this area.

so who's smarter?

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[Dragon Warrior]

i have heard credible authority suggest that animals dont think. Most people dont know a lot about this subject though. They assume their dogs can think because of observing their actions. This is actually a complicated subject and it will be hard for me to prove to you that when your dog does certain things, it is not thinking. Let me ask you this question.

What do dogs think about??

If you think that dogs think, what do they think about?

Kung lek
i agree with you about the morality of humans when compared to animals, but what does that have to do with intelligence? Also, i am not saying that we are superior to the rest of the world because we can think and animals can't. I actually believe in the buddist and american indian view of the world, more than i do the christian.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Dragon Warrior]

guys, can you believe this thread got so many hits. lol. It is interesting to go back and see how these converations start.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[KC Elbows]

You told me dolphins don't think, yet we can show they learn. What authority says they don't think? I'm interested in doing a little research here, so I'd like to know what authority I need to look into so that we can continue this discussion. My intention is not "attacking" you, but disagreeing. I was just kidding on the monkey thing, as I was pretty sure it would get your goat, making the case that you could be a roomful of chimps when you're clearly against the concept of thought in non humans.

Kung Lek, have you read "The Gleat Flatsby"? ;)

[KC Elbows]

Anyway, I'll try to remain friendly from here on out in this discussion. Cool?

[Dragon Warrior]

i never said dolphins cant learn. That is a trait that almost all animals have. If not, all animals would be extinct. You touch fire, it burns, you dont touch it again. But that is not thinking, that is programming.

What do dolphins, dogs, birds, etc, think about. Nothing, because they dont think. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest otherwise. Give me an example of a dolphin, dog, cat, bird, whatever, thinking and i will show you it is not.

Also, what do you think dogs think about?

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Braden]

"brain power"???

There is no platonic ideal of the brain to which all brains are compared. This idea was rejected a very long time ago. Different brains evolved under different pressures to do different things. Are we smarter than birds? Define "smarter" objectively without resorting to any species-specific parameters and we can have that discussion (hint: it can't be done). Birds are clearly better at being birds than we are. We're clearly better at being us. Arguing which is better is ridiculous. As for bird's brains, they were very 'en vogue' among neuroscientists and ethologists due to their ridiculously sophisticated sound recognition and reproduction 'circuitry' - which by just about any standard, yes, is far superior to ours (and also is effected by some very interesting developmental issues).

But once again, why bother arguing about this? A periodical search is minutes away assuming you have a car and are in a major city. Show us some references. Show me a reference about this 'credible source' that says animals don't think. Or even define what you mean by 'think' in this context.

Don't bother playing the 'you guys aren't qualified to talk about this' game.

[Dragon Warrior]

sorry i cant send you to a reference about this subject. The subject about animals ability to think is a major philosophical and scientific argument.

I am saying that there is no credible evidence to suggest that animals think, can't anybody here provide me with some? Or at least give me an idea about what animals think about.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Braden]

No it isn't.

Animals possessing various levels of consciousness and abstract reasoning HAS BEEN a major philosophical and scientific argument; however it's plainfully clear that they possess cognition. Humans can be included in the category "animals" for both parts of that statement.

BTW, if it's a major argument, you'd think there would be plenty of references to provide.

[Dragon Warrior]

it is a major argument, and im sure there are pleny of resourses, i just dont know of any. But i do know what i learned in my philosophy and bio classes. And what i learned was that there is no evidence to suggest that animals think. The only animal that has been proven to think is the human. All other animals learn only through programming. But also, there are people who argue that humans also do not think, they say everything going on in our minds is also through programming, but of course this view is not widely excepted.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Dragon Warrior]

i just typed "Do animals think" in my search engine and a lot of sites came up. Maybe it is a larger disscussion than you thought Braden.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Braden]

I hate to break this to you, but the internet isn't your best source of hard science.

You still haven't defined "think" btw.

Or given even a single reference for this "huge argument." Or defined the difference between "thinking" and "programming." Or suggested how one might go about proving that animals do or don't "think."

All requisite steps for you to have any argument at all.

[Dragon Warrior]

I hate to break this to you, but the internet isn't your best source of hard science.
You still haven't defined "think" btw.

Or given even a single reference for this "huge argument." Or defined the difference between "thinking" and "programming." Or suggested how one might go about proving that animals do or don't "think."
==================================================
Before you stated that this was not a big philosophical and scientific argument. The reason i told you to type "do animals think" into your search engine was to prove to you that it is a very big philosophical argument, which i believe i have proved.

The definition of "think," i dont have a dictionary on me, when i go home i will do that.

programming is simple. I gave the fire example before, you touch fire, it is hot, you dont touch it again. Another one is, everytime you feed a dog, you ring a bell. Do this for a few months. Eventually when you ring the bell, the dogs mouth will salavate, even without any sense of food. There are hundreds of experiments that have been done with programming, and there are all different kinds, i am not going to go over every part of this subject. I'll define programming when i get home.

You are telling me that animals do think, where is your evidence for this claim. Give me some and i will argue (successfully) against it. Also, if you can't come up with any evidence, at least give me an idea about what animals think about.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Braden]

Or you could even suggest off the top of your head a single logical reason to believe animals do not think.

The 'dead structures' of 'Non-Human Animal' brains and human brains are essentially identical, based off of anatomical, physiological, and chemical studies.

The 'alive structures' of NHA and human brains are essentially the same, based off of MRI, EEG, and the like.

Behaviourally, both categories seem to exhibit the same properties and scope of behaviours.

It seems like you'd have to have some pretty strong evidence to suggest such a strong QUALITATIVE difference between the two, as you are doing.

So far, you haven't even suggested a single bit of anecdotal evidence.

The only thing I can think of is the 'skeptic's problem' from philosophy; but this clearly applies equally to other humans as to NHAs; and indeed to chairs and space monkeys, your own body, and your past and future self.

[Braden]

As for my evidence, read the last post and apply the scientific method, or just common sense. The onus is on you.

As for conditioning experiment (Re: Pavlov's dog and your other examples), those work equally with humans. You're trying to prove there is a difference between humans and non-human animals.

As for your assertion that 'lots of hits on an internet search engine' = 'is a large scientific argument', I guess porn and Britney's Speares new video are huge scientific argument as well.

[Mojo]

What do dogs think about
1. That parrot is a real smart @ss
2. I need to get me some b1tches
3. Why not bite the hand that feeds me ?
4. There's nothing better in the world than a dog biscuit, mmmmmmmm mmmmmmmm.
5. Good, I scared that postman away again !

[Dragon Warrior]

i assume you have typed "do animals think" into your search engine, and now agree with me that it is a major debate.

the evidence i have to prove animals do not think, is the fact that there is no evidence to suggest they do.

Of course maybe one day, phychologist will prove that animals do think (which they have been trying to prove for years, and have been unsuccessful). When that day happens, i will believe animals think, but for now, just because someone tells me that a parrot does arithmetic, i believe it to be programming, and not actual thinking.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Braden]

"the evidence i have to prove animals do not think, is the fact that there is no evidence to suggest they do."

Evidence - Everything having to do with cognition is relatively identical between humans and non-human animals, with the only exception being your a priori opinion that one is different than the other.

That's pretty overpowering evidence.

But as far as your logic goes, you should head back to your philosophy and science classes. I can use the same logic to prove essentially anything.

EG. Dragon Warrior is a giant purple space elephant with Grover's for teeth. Well... I guess it must be true. I'd better inform the scientific community about my discovery!

[Dragon Warrior]

of course that type of programming works equally with humans, i never said it didnt.

the only thing i am trying to prove is that animals dont think. Giving me brain description does not prove anything. The best way to prove that animals think, is to examine their behavior and determine if there is any evidence that suggest they think.

Lets look at dogs. what behavior of dogs suggest that they think?

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Kung Lek]

The word is "sentient" Kmart shoppers, that's "sentient" in aisle 4.

The survival instinct can point towards a sentient being or "self aware".

It may be that all life is sentient, but because we only have our selves to compare we cannot see it.

Do we need a brain to be self aware?
What is "instinct" and who defined it?

Better to just "be" and while doing so, make the best attempt to harmonize.

BTW, I don't have a dog :D
Cats live with me though, and I do believe they think about how they can "get the bird and eat it" or how they can get me to feed them more or how can they get to the highest point in the room.

hahahahah, just kidding. They really are more of the "doer" type than the thinker by what I can observe :D

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[Dragon Warrior]

the fact that you do not know that this subject has been debated for a long time, and still is, tells me that it is not worth even argueing with you about it. You do not have enough knowledge about the material. I am not here to teach you all the prior knowledge before we debate. Do your homework and then come back and state your claim.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Dragon Warrior]

also, i looked back about what you were saying about brain comparisons. I am not sure if what you are saying is true or not, but even if our brains are similar to other animal brains, that does not prove that animals think because we do.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Braden]

What behaviour in humans suggest they think?

What behaviour could theoretically exist in dogs in order to prove that they think?

For this to be a scientific discussion, you have to answer both of those questions. And you have to define 'think', which I've asked you to do three times and you haven't done.

You are trying to prove humans and non-human animals are different, but all of your evidence states that they are the same. The implication is not very subtle.

Don't question me 'knowing my stuff' and 'doing my homework' unless you're prepared to have a ****ing contest over our credentials to argue this topic.

[Dragon Warrior]

what evidence suggest humans think? hmmmmmmmmm

how about E=mc^2

is that good enough for yah

or what about the development of mathematics, philosophy, and other abstract subjects. How about religion and ethical evaluations.

Are these good enough for you Braden?

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Braden]

No, they're not.

Since you haven't defined think yet (4th time asking you to - funny how you're arguing about something you can't even define), it's completely useless to say what is and isn't evidence of it.

Although if ability to concieve of mathematics is your definition of thinking, then it looks like this conversation has come full circle. Animals have been proven to be able to conduct simple mathematics. Once again, the implication is not subtle.

[Dragon Warrior]

animals have not been proven to understand mathematics. This was brought up in the debate in one of my classes.

All of the mathematical "understanding" animals have is from a type of programming achieved threw repitition. There is no evidence that animals understand concepts in mathematics, they are just repeating what they are taught threw repitition and rewards.

On the other hand, human beings show an unbelievable understanding of mathematical concepts, ecspecially with the discoveries of new mathematical concepts.

i'll define "think" when i get home and look at my dictionary. Unless you have one available and you can define it.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Braden]

Oh yes, as opposed to humans whose special understanding of mathematics renders them spontaneously able to do calculations with no programming or repetition. (that was sarcasm)

Please don't tell me you're seriously suggesting turning to a dictionary for a definition in a scientific or philosophic debate.

[Dragon Warrior]

well how else can i correctly define the word "think." Off the top of my head i guess think would mean to be able to come up with one's own ideas. There is more to it, but i would rather look at a dictionary.

As far as mathematics goes, im talking about coming up with new theorems and having a deep understanding of mathematical concepts.

I can teach a dog to bark twice everytime i say, what is one plus one. But does the dog understand the abstract "idea" of what the number one actually is. Of course not.


For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Dragon Warrior]

also, yes we do learn mathematics through repitition, but people do figure out there own ways to solve mathematical problems, that they have not gotten through any repitition.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[rogue]

But the parrots probably happier during duck hunting season.

"Americans don't have the courage to come here," Mullah Mohammed Omar, leader of the Taliban who right about now is getting jiggy with his first of 70 virgins.

“Are you guys ready? Let’s roll.” Last words of Todd Beamer heard over his mobile line right before rushing a hijacker.

[Shaolindynasty]

Humans must have huge egos to think the only things that exsist are things they know about!Animals probally don't think the same way as humans, why? Well because I beleive since they are in tune with their enviorment and their being they are the best Taoist and Buddhist and have mastered being in the moment and not thinking. Just because a person or animal doesn't have a mental conversation with itself doesn't mean it is not as intelligent as another creature. Intelligent is a thing created by humans who were insucure with themselves.

New classes New online Catalog
www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[Dragon Warrior]

shaolindynasty, the fact that animals are in tune with their envirnoments and humans are not is not the discussion we are having. I am not saying that animals dont think like humans, i am saying that animals dont think at all.

intelligence is another issue, but of course there is no animal in the world with the intelligence of a human, or the potential a human has for intelligence.

intelligence is an idea, why it was developed has no purpose in this argument.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[KC Elbows]

Okay, my turn,

If thought is coming up with one's own ideas, then my dog has utilized thought on at least one occassion. She likes to pick on the cats, and one day, I came in the kitchen and she was hiding in the corner. I couldn't figure out what she was doing, but I was like "Whatever". Anyway, a few minutes later, one of the cats came through to get some water, and she pounced, nosed the cat over(this one cat has no claws, my wife's fault) and licked the cat's face, all to irritate the cat. Then the dog walked off and went to sleep. The cat's water is down the stairs from there, and the dog is scared of stairs, so the dog wasn't protecting the water, and no other animal had done this before in front of the dog, so if no one else came up with the idea, that leaves the dog.

As far as humans thinking because they have a deep understanding of mathematical theory and developing new theorems, this excludes 99%of humanity. Even if math is not the only feild we're discussing(I'm fairly sure you were just using math as an example), that still precludes most humans from claiming thought, and thus makes thought seem more like an accidental process that only occurs in a few aberrant individuals(Now if we could just get them to stop thinking, then everything would be OK :) ).

You might want to avoid the "of course not" sort of statement, as it presumes in the absence of facts. As for the mathematical parrot, at some point I'll have to research that one. However, I've seen tapes of a friend of mine doing sign with Washow(pardon the spelling, one of the famous chimps who learned sign), and the chimp appears to me to think, and tries new things constantly without instruction or coaching. In fact, the keepers often wish the chimps would stop doing some of the more mischevious things.

Disturbing side story. When my friend worked with chimps, there was an assistant who kept going into the area outside the chimps quarters, and would sit down and read. She was always wearing a hat. After a while, her coworkers noticed that one of the chimps would always approach the area this assistant was reading at and, shall we say...get funky with his bad old self. Turned out that the assistant was doing this for the chimps gratification, as the chimp really, really liked hats. :eek:

That particular assistant no longer works with chimps.

[Silumkid]

I think I may have to disagree here...I believe animals do think. For instance, there are times that I am sure that my cats think I'm an idiot. :D

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

[Dragon Warrior]

so you think your dog purposly waited for your cat to come get some water, so it could scare the cat, and irrate it on purpose. highly unlikely.

also, the reason why your dog licks your face is because it wants you to throw up so it can eat the food in your stomach. This is instinctual. In the wild, dogs do this to their mothers when they come back from a hunt. The mother will throw up a portion of the food for their cubs.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Braden]

"well how else can i correctly define the word 'think.'"

If you actually read any of the science or philosophy on the topic, you'd have been exposed to alot of thought on that very question.

"As far as mathematics goes, im talking about coming up with new theorems and having a deep understanding of mathematical concepts...But does the dog understand the abstract 'idea' of what the number one actually is."

If this is the basis of your argument, then you are not arguing animals have no thought, you are arguing they have no abstract reasoning. Which is what I said in the first place. Although of course there's more and more evidence that this in fact is incorrect.

"But does the dog understand the abstract 'idea' of what the number one actually is. Of course not."

How do you know this? Suggest a way to test for this. Contrast between a human subject and an animal subject. Find a quantitative difference. Until you do that, you're just talking out of your ass; pardon my french.

"but people do figure out there own ways to solve mathematical problems, that they have not gotten through any repitition."

And animals find novel ways of solving problems too. Any Psych 101 text book will be full of examples.

[wufupaul]

I think this whole thread can be answered in a question...are you a dog? If you aren't, then you can only assume and hypothesize about whether they can think or not, haha.

In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about
life. IT GOES ON.

[Nexus]

Are you two going to continually argue over this topic or move back to kung fu? If you really wish to prove your point, go find thousands of specimens, apply the scientific theorom with well worked out hypothesis and procedures, and bring us back the data.

Until you do that, you are welcome to boast opinions, feelings, 'Im right, your wrong because..' etc, but you two obviously both have attitudes of disagreement and are not looking to come to a solution but rather to proving the other one is wrong. If you do not feel that this is evident in your posts, perhaps you are not being honest with yourself. Of course, you can have a great defense to that, and deny it, or you could move on. It is evident that there is not a mutual respect between the two of you DW/Braden for if there were you would be both looking to learn from eachother rather than battling word for word what the other person says.

You are welcome to reply to this post, and defend that you are the correct one and that the other person has not provided the correct information required to answer the question correctly, and you are now just manipulating language, and not looking for any truths.

Perhaps you should ask yourself why you continue to post to this thread, and what you look to gain from that.

- Nexus

[KC Elbows]

Dragon Warrior,
Not unlikely. Animals do it all the time, but it was a trick point. It was play behavior that mimics the wild. She was hunched down, waiting for the "prey" in a spot that is high traffic, where she knew her "prey" would pass sooner or later. Not at all different. Not a new idea, but a new application of an old idea. Because she cannot hunt the cats(again, my wife's fault) she perceives them as her toys. She works on new ways to catch them all the time, because they always catch on to her new ways. Its constant. Animals must think to survive. Instinct does not tell them that one particular spot is a good place to hunt, instinct makes them find a good place to hunt. By that criterion, instinct could have a play in the human need to create barriers between itself and the wild and social structures that allow the human to not worry about lions and tigers and bears, and so guns and cars and mathematics and space travel etc. could merely be the human response to the instinctual need for security, but I digress.

Anyway, the dog licking thing is a major non sequitor, and the unlikelihood of an animal lying in wait for an animal outside of a watering hole in order to purposefully eat it is the only logical conclusion to the unlikelihood of my dog trapping my cat in traditional play behavior that mimics hunting, which by the way is probably one of the most common practices amongst animals and humans, is well documented, and is widely accepted, even on the internet. Apparently animals in the wild must eat at shelters, as they have no way to provide for themselves.

By the way, it would be a lot easier to be friendly to you if you didn't insist on talking down to people so **** much. I tried, but you blew it. Later.

[Dragon Warrior]

dude, what is your problem with me going to a dictionary to define the word think. Lawyers, and philosophers go to dictionaries all the time. If you are asking me to define the word "think" then i would like to give you a precise definition. I gave you my definition already.

can you give me one of those pych 101 examples?

I used to think that my dog could think, then one of my proffessors opened my eyes, and now i realize all it does is react to it's environment through genetic programming, pyschological, and physical programming.

its been years since i have studied this subject and you got me interested in it again. I'll go back to the books and come up with some more info.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Dragon Warrior]

im not talking down to anybody, am i?? if it seems like that i apoligize. didnt mean to offend anyone. If anything, i feel like i am the one being insulted and talked down to, but im not talking it personally. I dont think i have insulted anyone on this forum yet.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Nexus]

From The Chuang Tzu
Discussion On Making All Things Equal

--------------------------------------------------

Now let me ask you some questions. If a man sleeps in a damp place, his back aches and he ends up half paralyzed, but is this true of a loach? If he lives in a tree, he is terrified and shakes with fright, but is this true of a monkey? Of these three creatures, then, which one knows the proper place to live? Men eat the flesh of grass-fed and grain-fed animals, deer eat grass, centipedes find snakes tasty, and hawks and falcons relish mice. Of these four, which knows how food ought to taste? Monkeys pair with monkeys, deer go out with deer, and fish play around with fish. Men claim that Mao-chi'iang and Lady Li were beautiful, but if fish saw them they would dive to the bottom of the stream, if birds saw them they would fly away, and if deer saw them they would break into a run. Of these four, which knows how to fix the standard of beauty for the world? The way I see it, the rules of benevolence and righteousness and the paths of right and wrong are all hopelessly snarled and jumbled. How could I know anything about such discriminations?"

The sage embraces things. Ordinary men discriminate among them and parade their discriminations before others. So I say, those who discriminate fail to see.

- Nexus

[KC Elbows]

OK, peace DW. I'm probably not going to jump in on this discussion until we get some hard data on the Mathematical Parrot, so have fun everyone.

Wait a second...Nexus is putting out quotes...****it, I should have seen it before...

NEXUS IS THE PHILOSOPHICAL PARROT!

Close cousin to the mathematical parrot.

OK Nexus, you can solve this once and for all. Do you think?

[prana]

wow, talk about a runaway parrot.... err thread.

peace y'all

[Ozihn]

Everything thinks, but not everything reasons. Thats what you guys are probably thinking (hehe) about.

[Braden]

"what is your problem with me going to a dictionary to define the word think."

Dictionaries are fine things with fine purposes. However, they were never intended to supply scientific nor philosophic definitions to extremely complex subjects; and they are extremely inadequate for this task.

"can you give me one of those pych 101 examples?"

Chimps piling up objects in a room to reach bananas suspended beyond their grasping reach.

Nexus - We're both obviously continuing with the thread because we enjoy doing it more than whatever other mundane task we were occupied with at the time. I don't see much point in pointless posts telling people how useless their threads are. If you're not interested in the thread, don't be interested in it. Seems pretty simple. As for Dragon Warrior, I don't have any disrespect for him at all. If I did, I would say so. If you'll check from my posts, I haven't. If the tone is cold, it's simply because I haven't had the time to decorate my posts with smileys and I assume that the reader isn't going to take anything said on this forum personally - an assumption which seems correct. :)

Personally, I'm continuing with the thread because it's a topic which I'm extremely interested in, and in fact, a topic which I am primarily employed with investigating. I am interested in hearing other people's opinions; and though I don't think DW has offered any compelling proof for his opinions yet, I give him enough 'benefit of the doubt' to believe he may elaborate more if pressed. You can quote taoist philosophers in attempts to attack science or philosophy; however, I think this would be as closed-minded as those who quote science or philosophy in order to attack taoism. Examining both approaches equally has served me well.

[Nexus]

This is good Braden!

- Nexus

[Dragon Warrior]

1. to form or have in the mind: concieve
2. to hold in one's opinions;judge: consider
3. to believe; surmise; expect;
4. to determine, resolve, work out by reasoning
5. to bring to mind, form an idea of
6. to recall, recollect
7. to have the mind turned steadily toward; have constantly in mind.

1. to use the mind for arriving at conclusions, making decisions, drawing inferences, etc. reflect and reason.
2. to have an opinion, belief, expectation,
3. to weigh something mentally
4. to call to mind; recall; remember: with of or about
5. to haev an opionoin, judgement, etc.; with of or about
6. to allow oneself to consider:
7. to have regard for , consider the welfare of
8. to discover or invent

This is right out of the "websters's new world college dictionary"

i gotta go to school, keep the discussion going!!

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[KC Elbows]

DW,
OK, its another day, and I've mellowed a bit. Sorry if I came off a little hardcore yesterday, I think this is an interesting topic, so I'm game to continue, though I need to actually do some work and kung fu today, so we'll see how much I can contribute. Have a good one.

[Stumblefist]

He's not dead he's sleeping.

Sure dumb animals can think. Just look at some of the posters here.

[JasBourne]

Hmmm... My cats and dogs exhibit behavior that fit all of the definitions of "think"...

1. to form or have in the mind: concieve
(If I keep staring at her, she might give me a treat. Failing that, I could rock the fridge hard enough to knock the treat basket down)

2. to hold in one's opinions;judge: consider
(that dog is fulla Sh*t and really easy to fool, I bet if I rake his a$$ with my claws and run, he will chase me up the tree and I can sit just out of reach and claw at his nose while he barks like a maniac)

3. to believe; surmise; expect;
(ok, here he comes, now, claw then RUN!)(that **** cat is gonna try clawing my a$$ again, this time I'm going to jump him!)

4. to determine, resolve, work out by reasoning
(If we work together, we can get the treat box off the fridge and open, and we can share the loot)

5. to bring to mind, form an idea of
(I'll climb up on the fridge and push the box to the edge, you rock the fridge so it comes crashing down, we'll both work on peeling the plastic lid off)

6. to recall, recollect
(she keeps the treats in a box on the fridge!)

7. to have the mind turned steadily toward; have constantly in mind.
(I want the treat. Give me the treat. Feed me the freaking treat, you stupid hominid. Give me the treat NOW or I will make horrible noises and then get it myself!)

1. to use the mind for arriving at conclusions, making decisions, drawing inferences, etc. reflect and reason.
(she will not be happy about the mess we made. We better disappear. Under the house is a good hiding place)

2. to have an opinion, belief, expectation,
(Uh-oh. She sounds angry. This is not good. We will be punished)

3. to weigh something mentally
(we could come when she calls, or we could continue to hide)

4. to call to mind; recall; remember: with of or about
(last time we made a mess, hid, and came when she called, we got a whuppin')

5. to haev an opionoin, judgement, etc.; with of or about
(fuk that - we're staying hid!)

6. to allow oneself to consider:
(but... she does feed us, and keep us clean, and scratches our bellies...)

7. to have regard for , consider the welfare of
(is she feeling sad now? maybe we should go check)

8. to discover or invent
(if we hide the lizards under the couch, they get nice and yucky before she finds them and throws them out!)


:D

[KC Elbows]

LOL! Nice one Jas! :D
"...Feed me the freekin treat, you stupid hominid..."!! Classic!

:)

[JWTAYLOR]

Draggon Warrior,
The parrot test I gave you earlier is sure a far cry from your "What's two plus two?" example. Can you explain how this particular trick was accomplished? Remember, it wasn't pulled off by some sideshow circus, but by a reputable zoo.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[SanShou Guru]

DW the show JWT was talking about can be seen here (http://pbs-saf.virage.com/cgi-bin/visearch?user=pbs-saf&template=template.html&query=parrot+ClipCategory%3Apsychology+ClipCategor y%3Acognitive+ClipCategory%3Ascience&category=ClipCategory%3Apsychology+ClipCategory%3A cognitive+ClipCategory%3Ascience&viKeyword=parrot) click on the parrot video then judge for yourself but the Parrot is at the MIT media lab. They do Artificial intelligence and learning research so it goes a little beyond the counting horse.

"Information is power"

[Dragon Warrior]

i never heard of the parrot, so i'll have to check it out. I cant check it out on this computer, i'll have to wait till tommarow when i go to work.

anyway, i'll try and prove that the parrot isnt thinking, but is acting on programming. but i'll have to wait till i see the demo.

does anyone have any serious instances where they feel their pets think. Any examples that you believe show your pet can think. If so, what do you think they are thinking about? Now that we have the definition of "think," this should be interesting!!

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[SanShou Guru]

Not my pets but what about Coco the gorilla. She knows 100+ sign language signs and can carry on conversations with people who can sign beyond just her trainers. Basic as those conversations are. She even taught her own offspring some signs. She had a pet kitten that died and afterwards she was using signs in combinations that went beyond anything she had used before to express her remorse.

I am someone who is more skeptical than most people but I am also (well was) a scientist so I know how to evaluate information and look for all possible explanations but I rule very little out before as impossible before I have seen the data and learn the validity of the source.

"Information is power"

[Braden]

"anyway, i'll try and prove that the parrot isnt thinking, but is acting on programming."

Don't forget you'll also have to suggest a testable way to theoretically observe/prove that the parrot IS thinking, to contrast your "proof" with; and also demonstrate how human behaviour in the same situation (ie. introspection and historical data doesn't count) falls in the former category.

[MoQ]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> so you think your dog purposly waited for your cat to come get some water, so it could scare the cat, and irrate it on purpose. highly unlikely. [/quote]

This is the voice of an inexperienced kid who is getting everyone riled by parroting what he was spoonfed recently by "professors".
I have seen animals display much more detailed methods of "thought". To rob them of even the ability to create their own "fun" is the root of some kind of evil.

(on the other hand JasBourne's experience is a wisdom lesson for all)

I have detected KL's "sentience" from INSECTS, but I cannot detect DW's ability to "think". He seems to merely "parrot" what others have said(even though actual parrots show some amazing mental attributes).

This show people keep mentioning was fascinating and very inspiring, as is the amazing Coco... Way moreso than mere negation by way of ignorance, of an animals ability to "think".

It's certainly fortunate for US that they can't figure us out and realize we use our so-called ability to "think" to convince ourselves that they are lesser and quite worthy of extinction.

How DEEPLY anyone or any"thing" perceives it's environment could be an eternal question to some snivelling noseybodies, but ...

[This message was edited by MoQ on 10-24-01 at 12:18 PM.]

[RedDragon]

ive seen parrots on tv identifying colors and objects, the trainer would hold up something and say what color is this? and the parrot would say the color, or the trainer would say what is this and the parrot would say what it was

thats kinda freaky cuz even im not capable of that, so that means i dont even qualify to be a "birdbrain" :D :D :D

"United We Stand, Divided We Fall."

[KC Elbows]

I'll have to see if I can transfer any of the video my friend sent me to my computer. The institute she worked at is the same one that Coco resided at, and there is footage of my friend signing with coco, washow, and others. Its absolutely amazing. My friends favorite, washow, loves the color black, and relates anything she likes with the color black-the sign for black is basically how washow says "cool!"

[myosimka]

I encourage you not to believe me but rather to look it up. Animals are capable of complex thought porocesses and my favorite example is Koko, the first gorilla to be taught sign language. I bought into the whole mimicry argument myself until I read up on the case. The telling factor was this: She use 2 words that she knew in a new compound phrase she had never learned to form a specific idea. She asked for a "baby cat" she was taught that baby was a small gorilla or a small human and she used it in conjunction with the word cat although the trainers had never used them together. After she emphatically asked on multiple occasions they brought her a cat ad she signed no repeatedly and asked for a Baby cat. When they brought her a kitten she quieted down.


Nothing to mimic. Use of an adjectival phrase in a new manner. In fact, using a noun form as an adjective.

Will she solve Fibonacci's equations or cure cancer? Probably not. But then neither will you probably

[MoQ]

That's right. "Koko" is a gorilla and "Coco" is a Chanel...

[JWTAYLOR]

Maybe animals can't think. My weiner dog just swallowed a Zebra Finch whole and then spent the next 30 minutes running around frantically looking for it.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[KC Elbows]

Sorry, Koko. I'm probably also misspelling Washow, but then, they don't care, why should we?

[MoQ]

A couple of us mispelled Koko on the prev page too...

JWT may have a point, but maybe dogs aren't our best examples here...

The original post has long evaporated, but perhaps when things are said originally, no one listens, then when one who heard it, realizing it's value, repeats it, some go "Hey, wait a minute!" and toss HIM in the can...
While the originator is free and constantly told to "Shut up man, no one is listening to your BS!"
;)

[KC Elbows]

Yeah, perhaps I was hasty to include dogs. My dog comes into the house panting, and then lays down to cool off right over the heat duct.

Okay, ferrets then?

[Dragon Warrior]

MOQ, wow, you really showed your knowledge of the subject by insulting me, that was trully amazing. Do you have any other way to contribute to this discussion??

Anyway, i could believe that some primates can think, they do have very very similar DNA, and it would not be absurd to believe they have thinking ability.

Parrots, dogs, cats, ferrets, and whatever else, i dont know what would give you the impression that they have thinking capability. What the hell would they be thinking about. Look at the definition i put on the thread of the word "think" and tell me that your dog does any of those things.

It is very east to be fooled into believing your dog has thinking ability, but if you examine it closly, and have some knowledge of the instinctual behavior of dogs, you will probably change your mind.

also, about the koko the gorilla wanting the baby cat. My dog has about 20 balls it plays with. Sometimes they are in places she can't get them. She will signal to me to get them by barking and jumping in the air. If i dont get the one she wants she will keep doing it. She has been programmed to do this, it doesnt mean she is thinking, she just knows through repitition how to get the ball she wants. Koko the gorilla can be doing the same thing. They teach her these words and show her what they mean. When she gets it wrong she doesnt get her treat, and when she gets it right she does. She learns how to get her baby cat by saying those words. This is hard for me to explain, but i think you guys can conclude what i am getting at.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Braden]

... still waiting for all that proof stuff.

Reminder: Need for proof:

Example of a behaviour to task A that would indicate thinking, example that would indicate not thinking, observation of non-human animals always using the latter and humans using the former.

[prana]

I remember watching a documentary of a monkey of some sort. He was taught how to use a keyboard with some pictures on it. He could communicate and answered perfectly what he wanted to do etc.

heheh wow. this thread is really ironic of its true meaning.

[MoQ]

C'mon DW, you say "I don't think that animals can think" and assume it's a fault of theirs... I shouldn't give you a hard time, you just need to look at things alittle closer. I don't think anyone is claiming that animals of all species perform creative reason that a 22yr old human male might respect, but human reasoning is way too soft and slow to deal with the "real" life of an animal, or even insect.

[Shaolindynasty]

DW, Why would Humans be the only beings on earth that think? Are we just that lucky? Why do you beleve this?(not sarcastic I really would like to hear your thoughts)

New classes New online Catalog
www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[prana]

perhaps humans are the only creature that thinks - or maybe it is just pride.

perhaps humans arent the only creatures that think - or maybe it is just their instinct.

more ramblings from me :))