Tai Chi is fast, REALLY FAST.

[imperialtaichi]

Hung-gar, taiji, MMA fighters, etc., are relatively slow.



This is a common misconception.

When I do the form, although externally I look snail paced, I am actually doing it as fast as I possibly can.

How? For example, lets look at the "Da Fu Si (Hitting Tiger Posture)" or another name for it, "Fu Gu Si (Supressing Bird Posture)". Externally, it just looks like I simply moved into Gong Bu while raising my left elbow. But actually, apart from the physical movement one can see, within that 1 second, I am doing (without physically showing it):

1. lowering my centre of gravity
2. swallowing the force through my chest
3. redirecting it to my Jia Ji point on my back
4. dispersing any excessive force
5. expanding the jia ji point
6. sending out my intention
7. sending out a silk thread through the jia ji
8. coiling the thread from my left hand, sharp turing back to the right, drawing power from right Yong Quen upwards, have the power and the thread united and wrap round my body/waist 1.5 times as a 1m diameter imaginery double helix, then round up to my left elbow
9. sending the silk and power out to meet the intention point
10. dissipitate the power
11. then, and only then, that my left elbow get risen aligned with the thread.

This is just a brief description, with more to look after in actual fact. And each step has to be done very precisely, without skipping over any detail.

And all the other movements has it's own method of energetics.

So if one understands the amount of work we have to go through just to move an elbow properly, one would realise how FAST we are actually doing our form.

Cheers,
John

[Blacktiger]

We have a Wudang tai chi set in our system that can be practised both fast and slow.....By fast I dont mean flat stick though :)

[WOW]

I think the misconception is everywhere and important aspects are lost. Its not question about speed, is more of a question how fast you can....

Controlling your breath/chi via the dan tin and focusing with your intent to parts of the body determines how fast you can present the body movements. If you puch as fast as you can without controlling your breath/chi then its simiply muscles and the core and foundations are underutilised.

[jon]

Physical speed is meaningless when you already know what someone is thinking and what there going to do.

The trick is being able to respond to change more fluidly and more effectively than your opponent.


"The opponent moves first, yet i arrive before him."


* Usual disclaimer: Just my opinion and not natural law, if you (the reader) dont agree then cool, please post why. Just please dont chew my head off for posting something you dont like or dont want to hear.

[Hunt]

This brings up a ? that I had. I'm relativly new to Tajiquan..about a year into it. Obviously you have to speed up your movements when your sparring with someone. I know the importance of practicing my form slow, but I usually throw in a fast set after I go through it twice. It really helps me feel bits of the form where I really need to work on keeping my center. It also helps me visulise my applications better. I guess my question is: How do you incorporate speed into your practice?

[imperialtaichi]

How do you incorporate speed into your practice?



By speeding up the internal changes and expression of the mind.

For example:

If someone chain punch/kick you very fast, the last thing you want to do is to match speed with the opponent. However, if you understand how to read/listen to his Yi Chi, it is usually not very difficult to touch him on the arm, or on the body. Basically, you just have to contact him.

But within the split second of you touching him, you must control him very quickly otherwise his punches/kicks would be coming (the methods are all written very clearly in the Tai Chi Classics". You must NOT manipulate him with force, because if he knows martial arts, he can feel it and redirect it. You must NOT manipulate him with movements, because he is faster than you. The only way is to manipulate him with something so subtle he cannot resist, which is the Shen Yi Qi unification. Net result? The opponent get propelled out with seemingly no physical effort and movement. To a third person observing this could often look "unreal". Hence people often appreciate medium level Tai Chi. But when they see the real thing, many would not be able to comprehend and be regarded as "fake".

That is why we practice the mind. And the way the body reacts to the mind is instantaneous and seemingly motionless. Fast minds, therefore, is more important than fast bodies.

Cheers,
John

[SPJ]

how fast is Tai Chi?

As the classics said:

store your Jin as if drawing a bow.

release your Jin as if shooting an arrow.

Xu Jin Lu Zhang Gong.

Fa Jin Si Fan Jian.

or like a sudden thunder or Hu Lei.

--

:D

[bamboo_ leaf]

(That is why we practice the mind. And the way the body reacts to the mind is instantaneous and seemingly motionless. Fast minds, therefore, is more important than fast bodies.)

very nice John ;)

[qiphlow]

"Fast minds, therefore, is more important than fast bodies."
--imperialtaichi


And THAT is precisely what is becoming more and more apparent the more i practice. An EXCELLENT point! Thank you.

[neilhytholt]

No offense, but where are the good Tai Chi fighters?

[imperialtaichi]

No offense, but where are the good Tai Chi fighters?



None taken :)

As I always say, the total fighting ability of a person is the sum of

External Strength + Internal Strength + Techniques
PLUS how willing the individual is in participating in a fight.
(Personally, I'm not that interested in competitions)

And I hold a lot of respect for other martial arts too. Some of my best friends are Wing Chunners, Bagua'ers, BJJers etc and I think they are very effective martial arts as well.

As I also say, I am always open for people to look me up, cross some hands with me and share some ideas. I still find the training in Tai Chi pretty useful in handling myself, even when the opponent is pretty much bigger than myself.

Cheers,
John

[neilhytholt]

None taken :)

As I always say, the total fighting ability of a person is the sum of

External Strength + Internal Strength + Techniques
PLUS how willing the individual is in participating in a fight.
(Personally, I'm not that interested in competitions)

And I hold a lot of respect for other martial arts too. Some of my best friends are Wing Chunners, Bagua'ers, BJJers etc and I think they are very effective martial arts as well.

As I also say, I am always open for people to look me up, cross some hands with me and share some ideas. I still find the training in Tai Chi pretty useful in handling myself, even when the opponent is pretty much bigger than myself.

Cheers,
John

I find that most people who say they do 'tai chi' really do push-hands. There are some who claim to have fighting apps like Erle Montaigue, but I don't really see them out competing or anything. Maybe they are fine with what they have and don't want to compete?

The tai chi that is being taught may not be the true system -- I don't know.

Like I was reading about how they have a snake ground fighting form and stuff, but I don't know anybody who teaches that.

Anyways, whatever. Every once in a while I've been looking around for some good taiji with fighting apps, etc., but I never seem to find it. Maybe it is there, maybe it is not, who knows.

Personally I don't want to spend time anymore with teachers who say they've got the goods but then don't want to teach and/or demonstrate, and that's mostly what I run into. Like everybody had such high regards for Madame Gao Fu who passed away recently. 80+ years old, Chen Taiji, but never showed any fighting skill from what I've heard of. So why do they hold her in such high regards? I have absolutely no clue at all. Very confusing, that is.

[imperialtaichi]

Anyways, whatever. Every once in a while I've been looking around for some good taiji with fighting apps, etc., but I never seem to find it. Maybe it is there, maybe it is not, who knows.



Hello Neil,

Don't blame you, I felt the same some years ago too.

And the problem is, it is SO **** HARD to find someone who can do some serious power... and when when you find someone who can throw you across the room, he/she may not be interested in teaching you how to do it.

The problem with learning Tai Chi is that most of the best stuffs are invisible, as mentioned in the previous posts. So without the teacher actually telling you EXACTLY what's going on, it is impossible to duplicate just by copying the external movements.

Plus, there are so many people out there who cannot do sh!t, yet selling their Tai Chi for a dollar and giving real Tai Chi a bad name. That is why I am so open about what I can and cannot do, and welcome people to cross hands with me. Hopefully, with little of what I can do, I could show people how powerful a martial art Tai Chi really is.

Cheers,
John

[neilhytholt]

Hello Neil,

Don't blame you, I felt the same some years ago too.

And the problem is, it is SO **** HARD to find someone who can do some serious power... and when when you find someone who can throw you across the room, he/she may not be interested in teaching you how to do it.

The problem with learning Tai Chi is that most of the best stuffs are invisible, as mentioned in the previous posts. So without the teacher actually telling you EXACTLY what's going on, it is impossible to duplicate just by copying the external movements.

Plus, there are so many people out there who cannot do sh!t, yet selling their Tai Chi for a dollar and giving real Tai Chi a bad name. That is why I am so open about what I can and cannot do, and welcome people to cross hands with me. Hopefully, with little of what I can do, I could show people how powerful a martial art Tai Chi really is.

Cheers,
John

Throwing across the room is no big deal. That's just a matter of body mechanics and momentum. It's just basic physics. That's one of the reasons BKF is so good at what he does is because he has so much mass to put behind his movements.

I'm not talking about apps like pushing people across the room, or throwing them around. I'm talking about the actual taiji apps, striking and that. Nobody seems to agree on what those are.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Lao Tzu says, "The Tao that can be spoken is not the true Tao".. or, "those that know don't speak, those that speak don't know"...

Quite the conundrum, we want those that know to give it up.. but, they have the wisdom to control their knowledge.. we challenge them to "prove it", yet they have all the proof they need.. To those that have it, really have it, it is not a sport to be demonstrated in some side-show event.. it is justly revered. For the record, i don't "have it", but.. i've seen it, felt it, and i'm working diligently to get it..

How would it fare if.. in competition, the opponent throws a right punch, i intercept the wrist with my right hand and rotate my left shoulder into their right elbow and snap it? That is a Taiji application. There are many Taiji applications that simply shouldn't be executed in normal competitions, it's a reality game.. Qinna, properly executed, will result in hyperextensions and breaks.. the kind of things coaches get really upset about when their fighters spend the next six months healing.. and, it's just bad karma to damage our brothers and sisters without cause..

People taunt Taiji players to adapt their skills to tournament style competitions so they can experience the "real deal".. Taiji players insist that if you want the real deal, pay your dues.. do the research, find a good teacher, and actually learn it.. Or, if someone is so intent on experiencing the "real deal", let them attack a good Taiji player, see what the street skills are, then evaluate the efficiency of Taiji fighting skills.. if the attacked player has no skills they get schooled, if they do.. the attacker gets schooled.. either way it's a learning process..

But, mostly it's a game of words... too few on either side willing to venture into reality..

Be well...

[Hunt]

I practice Chen Loa Jia Yilu (as taught by Chen Qingzhou) and it is full of Punches, kicks, stomps, palm strikes, elbows, and chin na.The second form Pao Chui (cannon fist) seems even more dynamic(I cant wait to learn this:) ) some bits of the form are pretty obvious i.e. groin punch, hidden hand punch. Then there is other stuff that is not quite as obvious i.e. draping body fist (an armbar), Vajra pounds mortar ( a mix of an uppercut, knee, and stomp) There are bits in the form that have multiple applications as well.

As far as the good Taiji quan fighters, I'm not sure. Both my instructors seem very competent and they are always going over application and scenrarios. I have seen them Fa Jing elbow strikes that looked like they would rip someones head off if it connected. That doesnt nessasarily make them a good fighter, but it makes me confident that they couls handle themselves

[imperialtaichi]

Throwing across the room is no big deal. That's just a matter of body mechanics and momentum. It's just basic physics. That's one of the reasons BKF is so good at what he does is because he has so much mass to put behind his movements.

I'm not talking about apps like pushing people across the room, or throwing them around. I'm talking about the actual taiji apps, striking and that. Nobody seems to agree on what those are.



If you think being thrown across the room is no big deal, you haven't been thrown across the room! I mean, to be able to issue such power, whether internal or external, is no big deal? Com'on! Don't forget, when a Tai Chi throw is executed with intent to harm, you will NOT be landing on your feet. You will be thrown against objects, directly onto the ground, or horizontal or spinning. Not talking about "pushing people across the room", that's not Tai Chi. I 'm talking about feet off the ground bounced off across the room.

Plus, as I mentioned before, there are very effective jams and locks, plus the "Cold Jin" where the opponent is not thrown but compressed through the contact point. Just because you haven't seen it, does not mean it's not there.

You see, people are so bloody ignorant out there that, when our style holds the "empty fist", people criticise it because they thought it got watered down because the Manchurians have long fingernails and they couldn't hold the fist properly... WRONG WRONG WRONG! we hold our fist a certain way because we deliver our power in a specific way and the "empty fist" is held this way to deliver maximum damage to the opponents.

I have spent 20yrs doing different martial arts. I am not one of those airy fairy esoteric hippies doing Tai Chi as a new age game. I'm concentrating on Tai Chi because it make me a better fighter than ever, amoungst other benefits as well.

Look, I'm not into making enemies, I rather make friends. If anyone wants to cross hands with me I am more than happy to do so, as long as you are here to exchange and not pick fight. (Used to get into fights when I was youger, but those days are over. Not into that anymore.)

I'm sorry if I sound a bit heated, but I am so sick of people knocking Tai Chi because they "haven't seen".

Cheers,
John

[SPJ]

So I was in a fund raising banquet for local Chinese school.

A teacher led a group of class performing Chen Fa Ke-> Chen Zhao Kui xin Jia short forms.

There were a lot of circles and turns.

One teen learned TKD. She asked me when are they going to strike or hit.

I muted for a while.

Then I said they are doing circles or Chan Si. they are doing a lot of neutralization and releasing Jin at the same time.

She said OH.

--

:D

[B-Rad]

I'm sorry if I sound a bit heated, but I am so sick of people knocking Tai Chi because they "haven't seen".
Well, when people talk so much about something in public then never show it in public, criticism is too be expected. Either show it or be secure enough in your knowledge to not worry about what random strangers on the internet think. Whining about people being ignorant of something you've never exposed them to isn't going to solve anything. Right now you're part of the problem you complain about. If you're upset about how people percieve taiji then you should show videos that are clear enough for a non taiji person to understand. Show some of the locking, throwing, or striking applications in a free fighting like enviroment... or even if pre coreographed for safety reasons show it being used in a more conventional self defence/fighting situation. If you want to promote the push hands, energy work, and more internal stuff online, more power to you, but you have to expect the criticism that's going to come along with it. The stuff you're currently showing online is certainly going to look fake to anyone who hasn't experienced such things.

[neilhytholt]

If you think being thrown across the room is no big deal, you haven't been thrown across the room! I mean, to be able to issue such power, whether internal or external, is no big deal? Com'on! Don't forget, when a Tai Chi throw is executed with intent to harm, you will NOT be landing on your feet. You will be thrown against objects, directly onto the ground, or horizontal or spinning. Not talking about "pushing people across the room", that's not Tai Chi. I 'm talking about feet off the ground bounced off across the room.

Oh, please. I've been shown how to throw a person across the room by a hung gar person. There's no mystery there.

It's a matter of basic physics. You get your center of gravity lower than theirs, you accelerate your mass, and then transfer the momentum forward and up into their mass, and they go flying.

Most of the little guys can't launch people without effort. They usually just uproot them and push them, and the people trip across the room.

The guys who are bigger or the guys who are better can actually launch people like 10 feet or more.

[B-Rad]

How would it fare if.. in competition, the opponent throws a right punch, i intercept the wrist with my right hand and rotate my left shoulder into their right elbow and snap it? That is a Taiji application. There are many Taiji applications that simply shouldn't be executed in normal competitions, it's a reality game.. Qinna, properly executed, will result in hyperextensions and breaks.. the kind of things coaches get really upset about when their fighters spend the next six months healing.. and, it's just bad karma to damage our brothers and sisters without cause..
True, but a lot of chin na doesn't have to be taken to such and extreme as to snap a guys arm in half. Chin na isn't just about breaking an opponent, it's also about controlling them, giving you a choice as to how far you want to take it. If you're good at throwing people you can throw them in such a way as they don't snap their necks.

[neilhytholt]

Well, please don't take my comments the wrong way. I'm not putting down Tai chi or anything. It's just that I'm a bit frustrated with the teachers out there, and the lack of applications. I think that part of this is due to their wanting to continue to make money, without providing students with any real fighting skills.

In my experience, chinese culture has a lot of face saving things.

Let me gives you some examples.

'Steal'. The student 'stole' that. Means they either learned it from another person, learned it by watching, or learned it and now are teaching without permission.

Many masters will say their students 'stole' things from them, which means that the student is teaching and the instructor isn't getting the $$$ from the teaching.

'Stupid'. Somebody is 'stupid'. Means not necessarily that they're stupid, but they are from a different lineage, do something differently from the teacher, etc.

'I know, but I don't tell you, because I want you to figure it out.' This means that they probably don't know, or they want to string you along for years and years, making $$$ off of you in the process.

'It's too deadly for the ring'. Means they don't have the skills to properly apply it in the ring, or don't have the control not to hurt their opponent, or they just don't want to fight at all for fear of getting hurt.

Usually, 'it's too deadly for the ring', means they don't have the skills to apply it and never actually fought with anybody. A lot of people have a false sense of confidence from this.

'It's too hard and takes years to master'. Sun Lu Dong studied bagua for what, 3 years? Xingyi for how long? Taiji for how long? So when somebody tells you it takes years and years, sure, it might take years, but likely they don't have the goods, or can't teach it.

So instead you get people studying taiji for 25 years who have 0 fighting skills, only basic push-hands skills, never actually practiced against a resisting opponent in a sparring situation or a ring or anything, who then go on to teach.

So I don't know about your tai chi at all, just that the tricks of throwing people around and stuff aren't a big deal. sure, you can snap a guy's wrist or something maybe, but can you control him without snapping? Aikido people can control without snapping (well some of them can).

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


True, but a lot of chin na doesn't have to be taken to such and extreme as to snap a guys arm in half. Chin na isn't just about breaking an opponent, it's also about controlling them, giving you a choice as to how far you want to take it. If you're good at throwing people you can throw them in such a way as they don't snap their necks.Sure, but.. if we don't express Qinna to the point of near breaks or strains the opponent struggles and says how much it doesn't work.. what you are suggesting is that we express Taiji like "point sparring".. at the same time you insist on "reality" fighting.. which is it? Qinna, held back, is not an effective weapon against an opponent that is playing full-contact.. full-on is full-on for both players.. I've played that game, where someone is trying to take my head off but complaining when i strain his elbow or wrist.. i seldom throw, it starts like a throw but ends up with a lock and pressure to the result of submission.. or, the opponent doesn't like the target.. it is tiresome to be herded into rules that favor the opponent's style..


If you're good at throwing people you can throw them in such a way as they don't snap their necks.If you're good at fighting, you can be thrown with little harm.. it's two-way-street.. if i can't express my art fully, then don't hit me here or kick me there.. i get bruised, battered, and broken from training and grow weary of players that wimp-out when they suffer, too.. Certainly, Taiji can control an opponent, but.. there are good fighters out there and the only way to "control" them is to effect a certain level of damage.. 'cause if they get free they will do the same to you.. keep it real.. or, keep it balanced, at least..

'It's too deadly for the ring'. Means they don't have the skills to properly apply it in the ring, or don't have the control not to hurt their opponent, or they just don't want to fight at all for fear of getting hurt.Again, if the opponent wants to play nice, i'm all for it.. but, usually, it ends up with them attacking hard and complaining when they get the same response.. Taiji is not so gentle as to be dominated by other arts.. it is just smart enough not to alienate itself.. when i don't effectively neutralize someone because of the harm it could cause, i suffer ridicule that the technique is ineffective.. when i do neutralize someone with sufficient force they complain.. what's a Taiji guy to do?

Be well...

[Hunt]

Oh, please. I've been shown how to throw a person across the room by a hung gar person. There's no mystery there.

It's a matter of basic physics. You get your center of gravity lower than theirs, you accelerate your mass, and then transfer the momentum forward and up into their mass, and they go flying.

Most of the little guys can't launch people without effort. They usually just uproot them and push them, and the people trip across the room.

The guys who are bigger or the guys who are better can actually launch people like 10 feet or more.


From what I've learned, it's more about controling the mass and momentum being thrown at you; plus being able to listen to where that mass and momentum is going. I've seen little guys bounce guys twice their size..send them flying...with what looked like zero effort. An oversimplified explanation would be: when your opponet pushes, you pull. When your opponent pulls, you push. You can also bait people too. You push/pull someone their kneejerk reaction is to resist in the direction you are applying force to...and the moment they do, you send them in that direction...

I dont mind that people underestimate Taiji quan. When I tell most people I practice it they equate it to wierd chinease yoga or something. I was the same way..I used to heckel my friend that got me into it....Now I cant get enough

[Fu-Pow]

This is great thread because I've been wondering lately when does the speed training (ie reflex training) and pressure testing come in Taiji?

I've been doing a lot of sparring lately and I've been able to use some Taiji energies to a certain degree. However, mostly I use my CLF training because I am used to using it in faster manner. When I try to stick to my opponent and off balance him, I end up eating punches.

It seem that if you don't do some sort of training for speed of application, you will get your nose broken before you know what hit you....especially if you're opponent is a trained martial artist. Boxers, for example, have very fast hands, how can you hope to "stick" to your opponents when their speed of attack is so fast?

Are there specific drills to train speed in Taiji?

[dleungnyc]

I wouldn't call it drills per se, more like conditioning your body and mind.

The way it was shown to me, I practiced each technique slowly, once I have all the alignments correct, then I increase the speed of the movements without losing the posture. I keep practicing this one movement until I can do it at or around combat speed without losing alignments and tensing of the body.

[Fu-Pow]

I wouldn't call it drills per se, more like conditioning your body and mind.

The way it was shown to me, I practiced each technique slowly, once I have all the alignments correct, then I increase the speed of the movements without losing the posture. I keep practicing this one movement until I can do it at or around combat speed without losing alignments and tensing of the body.

Do you ever practice neutralizing uncoreographed attacks with a partner....ie San Shou?

[SPJ]

Response to the first post.

If the opponent is slow, you may go fast.

If the opponent is fast, you may go faster or slow.

If the opponent is too fast for your moves, we may then just move away by steps and rotating the waist.

You may do cloud hands or repluse monkey or whatever.

My point is that space may make up for timing.

speed is relative.

:D

[brucereiter]

Well, please don't take my comments the wrong way. I'm not putting down Tai chi or anything. It's just that I'm a bit frustrated with the teachers out there, and the lack of applications. I think that part of this is due to their wanting to continue to make money, without providing students with any real fighting skills.

In my experience, chinese culture has a lot of face saving things.

Let me gives you some examples.

'Steal'. The student 'stole' that. Means they either learned it from another person, learned it by watching, or learned it and now are teaching without permission.

Many masters will say their students 'stole' things from them, which means that the student is teaching and the instructor isn't getting the $$$ from the teaching.

'Stupid'. Somebody is 'stupid'. Means not necessarily that they're stupid, but they are from a different lineage, do something differently from the teacher, etc.

'I know, but I don't tell you, because I want you to figure it out.' This means that they probably don't know, or they want to string you along for years and years, making $$$ off of you in the process.

'It's too deadly for the ring'. Means they don't have the skills to properly apply it in the ring, or don't have the control not to hurt their opponent, or they just don't want to fight at all for fear of getting hurt.

Usually, 'it's too deadly for the ring', means they don't have the skills to apply it and never actually fought with anybody. A lot of people have a false sense of confidence from this.

'It's too hard and takes years to master'. Sun Lu Dong studied bagua for what, 3 years? Xingyi for how long? Taiji for how long? So when somebody tells you it takes years and years, sure, it might take years, but likely they don't have the goods, or can't teach it.

So instead you get people studying taiji for 25 years who have 0 fighting skills, only basic push-hands skills, never actually practiced against a resisting opponent in a sparring situation or a ring or anything, who then go on to teach.

So I don't know about your tai chi at all, just that the tricks of throwing people around and stuff aren't a big deal. sure, you can snap a guy's wrist or something maybe, but can you control him without snapping? Aikido people can control without snapping (well some of them can).



hi neil,

(start humor)

it takes 97 years of practice to become skilled with taijiquan. a person will never be "ready" until they do the "basics" for 87 years then you can start to learn fighting. so the way i see it within 20 years after your death you will be able to use taijiquan to fight.

(end humor)

if you practice for i think about 5 years you can start to have pretty good skill, but you have to experiment and learn things for your self with occasional corrections from your teacher. to become good i think you need to do push hands and spar with as many people as you can find at all skill levels and styles. and really think of taijiquan as a set of principals and concepts that govern your movement.

keep searching, good taijiquan is hard to find. but it is out there. maybe 10% or less may be skilled (imho)

[SPJ]

communication. communication. and communication.

1. stealing stuff. If you have learned something from somewhere, then be nice to mention where your moves are from. Give the teachers their proper credits. Then they can only say you borrow or learn from them and did not steal.

For example, there is a posture of pushing upward with the right hand while pressing down with left hand. It may be called pushing thru the sky or Tong Tian Ding (common name) or Tian Wang Tuo Ta (the heavenly king holding the bogota), I modified the posture. I did mention where it is from. then nobody is saying that I am stealing the posture from the forms that were taught by a certain teacher or school.

Give the source proper credits.

2. dun comment on something you dun know. We have to know something about the style or postures involved before commenting and also mention why you think so, then no body will call you silly, or dunno what you are saying.

3, the teacher can only be a guide, we still have to learn and practice for the most part of what we become to know or experience.

4. how long it would take you to learn a certain style? if you are talented and diligent, ya in a short time. If not, we may never enter the door or remain outdoor despite of long time of practice. Not every body is Su Lu Tang or Chen Fa Ke or Yang Lu Chan.

---

:D

[neilhytholt]

4. how long it would take you to learn a certain style? if you are talented and diligent, ya in a short time. If not, we may never enter the door or remain outdoor despite of long time of practice. Not every body is Su Lu Tang or Chen Fa Ke or Yang Lu Chan.

---

:D

If the refrigerator is empty then even if you get inside you will go away hungry.

[SPJ]

good point.

:)