Monk Ching Cho Woe Serng

[hskwarrior]

Nah Eddie, the information is already on my links pages (in Chinese) and if anyon wanted to all they have to do is copy and paste either the chinese characters of Hung SIng CLF or just CLF and do a google search. there's lots of information from many different resources.

As I've said already, at the time of the Japanese Invasion of the late 1930's (i guess do to all the destrcution and clean up) the actual ancestral tablets with Monk Ching Cho's name on it, as well as some Kuen Po's were excavated, possibly by HSK Manager Huang ShenJiang but he is the one who mentions the discovery of it.

As we all know the King Mui branch claims that all of a sudden after 150 or more years discovered that Monk Ching Cho was actually Monk Choy Fook. However they have no more information on him than that. You can check the CLF chan family site in China to see if they say more but they don't. Remember, at one point he didn't exist. Now he does.

However, the disciples of Jeong Hung Sing passed down their oral history mouth to mouth. Most of the people in southern China couldn't read or write so the only way they could was orally.

The Fut San branch has way more information on the Green Grass Monk than the CHan family because the Green Grass Monk was Jeong Yim's sifu. Now, the Old Greenie went by other names like Monk Um Ging, and Cai DeZhong (tsai De Jung or Choy DakJung). Cai DeZHong IS one of the 5 founding ancestors of the Hung Mun (the second coming). Historical data discovered while performing raids and capturing certain people have confiscated actual literature, ceremonial, and such about the Hung Mun, something all members must carry with them to be identified by another (aside of their secret hand signs).

anyways, the second coming of the Hung Mun secret society was recorded as being in the late 1760's. With the record of Jeong Yim stating that at the age of 17 (1831) he went to the Green Grass Monk because of being Kicked out of the CHan Family Kwoon. So when asked, yes, it was completely possible and most likely probable that Jeong Yim's account of the Green Grass Monk is true.

Now, after Jeong Yim completed his training with Monk Ching Cho, as we all know and heard before, he changed Jeong Yim's name and replaced it with Hung Sing.
The Hung used was the one of the Hung Society with the word Victory in it. Most men who followed the Hung Mun back then added the Hung to their names. So Monk Ching CHo since he was the head guy of the Hung Mun, used a name for Jeong Yim to reflect the revolutionary ideal of that time.

Monk Ching Cho then instructed Jeong Yim to go to Fut San and contact the heads of the Fut San Hung Mun headquarters, join in the revolution and train the members of their organizations. Jeong Hung Sing became one of the main Gung Fu instructors.

As well, I'm not saying there wasn't any Chan Family people in Fut San teaching Chan Heungs Choy Lee Fut. But I don't believe that Chan Heung sent him to take over the blind guys gung fu studio. What I believe is after Jeong Yim shared Monk Ching Cho's gung fu with Chan Heung, he obeyed his last sifu and told Chan Heung he was going to Fut San, and that's when Chan Heung told Jeong Hung Sing to take over that school.

Jeong Yim was going to Fut San regardless to contact the Fut San Hung Mun. So what better deal could you get? Thats when Jeong Yim went and opened the Hung Sing Kwoon. Now, from what I understand is that Jeong Yim changed the name of CHan Heung's school and used his own name. Most likely since he was a member of the Hung Mun now.

Ever since, Jeong Yim's Hung SIng Kwoon was been deeply connected to the Hung Mun secret society. The head of that secret society was Cai Dezhong, (the green grass monk) as well as being Jeong Yim's last sifu. Proof of the connection to the Fut San Hung Mun is the set up of the alter.

In some of the King Mui photo's of their school, i only saw a large table with Chan Heung's picture above it. If Chan Heung was a member (which i doubt) then it doesn't show in the set up of his school. However, Jeong Yim's school is widely known for its revolutionary involvements, and you can see in the photo (i'll try to post the photo later) that Jeong Yim's schools alter is set up like this.......there the table, the photo or image or whatever to represent Jeong Hung Sing , and in front of the table is two chairs. one for the sifu, and one for his disciple. that was common throughout southern china and in most styles, but most southern styles were in one way or another involved with the hung mun or the relovution.

Jeong Yim's secong generation disciples sich as Liang Hui Hua, Qian Wei Fang, Wu Qin, and others were heavily involved in the fight. Wu Qin was Dr Sun Yat Sen's personal bodyguard.

well, thats all for now,

look forward to hearing from most and i do mean most not all of you.

hsk

[Fu-Pow]

Cai Ze Dong was not the Ching Cho Wo Sheurn.

[hskwarrior]

Fu Pow,

Sit in the back of the class and Shut up.

maybe you'll learn something.

[Fu-Pow]

Fu Pow,

Sit in the back of the class and Shut up.

maybe you'll learn something.

You could only tell me that if you were the teacher.

So what are your credentials to teach history?

(ie what University did you study history at that would qualify you teach it.....or alternatively, what credentialed historians did you discuss your version of the history with?)

[hskwarrior]

if you don't like the class you are welcome to go to another.

or else, sit down, shut the eff up, and takes notes young jedi.

Empty your cup, there's more of the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon juice for you waiting to be poured down your throat.

hsk

Now, SHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! I'm teaching.

[Fu-Pow]

If I don't agree with what you are "teaching" then I'm welcome to disagree with it too.

Frank, you're not a teacher, you're a preacher....an hung-sing evangelical. Your name should be hskpreacher not hskwarrior.

[hskwarrior]

quiet down........i'm sharing knowledge with the people who are interested.

(i don't care if YOU don't agree with what i'm teaching. You are NO ONE to me, and way, way, way, way..........my JR. for me to worry about you little brother.)

Here's a little something in regards to the Tai Ping Rebellion.........

In Taiping revolutionize, Cailifu doors are important organizers and participants. One of the founders of Taiping Heavenly Kingdom, named Pingyunshan, Chen enjoy along Long before the disciples son. Chen enjoyed in Dandakai Department served Muke, Long is the son of the Taiping army generals. Foshan Hung Yen Museum founder and Taiping revolutionize the important players. According to the records, Sheng Museum was founded in Xian Feng year (1851) (one said 1856), it is Taiping revolutionize breaks out, the establishment of Lion Museum is to echo the revolution, according to Chen enjoy the Memorial Association records : "rule together three years (Year 1864) : : June 15, Zeng Guofan, Kuo Hsi broken Nanjing, hunt down remaining confederates. Zhang starry night Shengzhou arrived U.S. townships and their public and put inward, and combine local Chen Tien Tong as battalion in the Western District of the Villa, an American by the San Francisco Chen of the cases will be recruited in Peru-for, say, asking Chang to beat the word 'belch' and emphasize the 'or', a foot of the 'magic' for cipher, Gai for avoiding tiger is roaring. "In addition, Sheng Museum Ping taught him is the main Chinese boxing team, player, while playing, which Ping boxing, sword contain "Taiping Heavenly Kingdom, Changan Man Nin" is also visible adding relations with the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom.
Recently, we found the doors were Tangdong giant Lion Museum (Felix Jesus) wrote the Lion Museum history, many will Cailifo him as "white group", "white technology", "white" refers to the Taiping army might (Qing government said Taiping army as "Long Hair"). According to the study, Taiping army general use Chinese boxing, equipment is Cailifo Chinese boxing and combat effectiveness of good. Now we inherited from the Chinese boxing from the Lion Museum, appliances replaced, many still see as their race technique used for attacking.

[hskwarrior]

if you keep disrupting my class, then i will have to call security and escort you off the premises.

thank you for your cooperation.

sincerely,

HSK, the FUT SAN HSK evangelist.

the one who Fu POw hates because he tells the truth about the real fut san hsk. not the chan clan version of the HSK. (which is wrong)>


sucka

[hskwarrior]

Tell Me What University On The Face Of This Earth Offers Up Choy Lee Fut Research In Their Curriculum And I Will Produce You A Certificate Of My Credentials.

There May Be Popular Researchers Who May Research The History Of Clf, But There Are No Schools That Teach That.

We Do That On Our Own Accord And Come Up With Things.

For Example, I Have Produced More On The Green Grass Monk Than Anyone Else Here Including The Chan Family.

It Is Truek, Choy Fook Is Not Ching Cho Like The Chan Family Now Claim.

Prespostorous.

[hskwarrior]

Anyways Folks,

In All Of Guandong Until From 1839-1949 Jeong Hung Sing's Hung Sing Kwoon Was The Largest And Most Structured Schools Of Chinese Gung Fu.

Then During Chan Ngau Sing's Time The Hung Sing Kwoon Was Spreading Like Wild Fire. His Fighting Reputation Was Fierce. He Had More Than 10,000 Students Under Him And A Total Of 13 Different Branches.

Although Chan Ngau Sing Was Against Public Lion Dancing For The Hung Sing Kwoon, He Was The Head Master Of The Lui Chung Lion Dance Society Along With Another One In Which All The Members Were All Secretly Hung Sing Kwoon Members.

Well, I Think Its About Time People Started Discussing Fut San Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut History. For Far Too Long Our Story Has Been Kept Within Our Own Schools And Never Told To The Public. No One Ever Wrote It Down Either. However There Is The 100 Year Article On The Fut San Hsk, But The History Of Our Branch Is Also Recorded In The "historical Accounts Of Guandong Martial Arts."

Thats All For Now.

Thanks For Checking Out Our Little Discussion


Hsk

[Fu-Pow]

Tell Me What University On The Face Of This Earth Offers Up Choy Lee Fut Research In Their Curriculum And I Will Produce You A Certificate Of My Credentials.

How 'bout just a history degree? Or maybe east asian studies? Hey, maybe if you could even read Chinese that would be a start.......I mean if you want people to take your research seriously.




There May Be Popular Researchers Who May Research The History Of Clf, But There Are No Schools That Teach That.

We Do That On Our Own Accord And Come Up With Things.

For Example, I Have Produced More On The Green Grass Monk Than Anyone Else Here Including The Chan Family.

Propaganda is not the same thing as historical research.




It Is Truek, Choy Fook Is Not Ching Cho Like The Chan Family Now Claim.

Prespostorous.

Ching Cho Wo Sheun may or may not be Choy Fook, but I'm 99% sure he is not Cai Zi Dong.

[hskwarrior]

99% is stupidity, while the truth for you lies in the 1%

ingoramous

[hskwarrior]

cai de zhong is the founder of the hung mun, he went by the name ching cho, he sent jeong yim to join with the fut san hung mun. the hung mun was founded by Cai Dezhong in the late 1700's.

if you think 99% sure, prove it. show me something that has his birthdate on it.

i got more on him than you can provide me with to change my view.

you suck dude. realize that.

[hskwarrior]

Many many thousands of Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon members were all invovled in the revolutions. Especially when it came to the Japanese invasion. The Hung Sing Kwoon was commemorated for their involvement for battling the Japanese.

well here's a link from a guangong newpaper about those terrible things Japanese did to the chinese back then.

pretty cruel.

http://www.newsgd.com/specials/60thanniversaryofwaragainstjapaneseaggression/oldphotos/200508240064.htm

[hskwarrior]

http://www.newsgd.com/specials/60thanniversaryofwaragainstjapaneseaggression/oldphotos/200508240078.htm

[Fu-Pow]

Aah...yes now I remember this discussion came up before..... didn't Cai Ze Dong live in the 1600's or something, making it impossible for him to be Ching Cho Wo Sheun?

[hskwarrior]

Fu Pow,

when the Premier of china instructs a hung sing man to write the story and make sure the green grass monk is mentioned ..... i think that goes beyond just a branch of choy lee fut telling the story.

You see, the one thing you are forgetting, is Jeong Yim's HSK was heavily, i mean heavily involved with the Hung Mun, whose founder is Cai Dezhong. The Hung Mun was re-founded by Tsai Ta Chung, and actual lilterature discovered during raids on wanted members say the Hung Mun is founded around the late 1760's.

I've seen the 1600's sheet, and kept searching. I've come up with stuff that tells of the actual founding.

But Fu Pow, i know this green grass monk has your panties in a bunch, and it means that you will have to start recognizing the truth,

you have nothing to disprove me. at all. show me something more than some bs that says cai dezhong truly existed in the 1600's. you can't.


hsk

[hskwarrior]

and he said "or something".......

what was it fu pow? 1600's or something? maybe that something is the late 1700's.

we know you only dispute it because it leaves you on shaky ground.


i'm done arguing with an idiot who cannot challenge my research one bit.

stay ingorant .

[Fu-Pow]

Well, according another "official history" there is no mention of the Ching Cho Wo Sheun or Cai Ze Dong.

http://www.tyj.gd.gov.cn/shengzhi/docc/3th/jie12.htm

[Fu-Pow]

Ok here we go....Something from extrajoseph:




Hi Frank,

It is really unfortunate that the historian of your branch told you that the Green Grass Monk was the same person as Cai De-Zhong, one of the five legendary founder of the Hung Mun Secret Society, because it is written in the Hung Mun Ji (the History of the Hung Mun) that Cai served the famous General Zheng Cheng-Gong from about 1661 - 1672 and the the society was founded in around 1680, almost 150 years before Chan Heung founded CLF, so there is no way the GGM could have taught Jeong Yim, they lived more than 100 years apart! Besides, there is no proof that Cai actually existed, he was a figure in the Hung Mun story made famous by later day fiction writers.

In case you need evidence, I have snipped out the relevant bit from the official history of the Qing Dynasty, you need a Chinese reader to read it and I have underlined the name and the dates. The quote came from this website:

http://www.qinghistory.cn/qinghistor...articleid=2640

清史研究
哥老会起源:
1947年朱琳在《洪门志》中，又进一步发挥了这一说法。称洪门“起于汉留”，始祖为殷洪盛，山西平阳府太 平县人，明崇祯四年进士。清初，奉史可法之命至北京窥探清廷虚实，沿途遍访志士顾炎武、王夫之、傅青主、黄 梨洲诸人，议创汉留组织，“反清复明”，顺治二年战死于三汊河。顺治十八年(1661年)，郑成功据守台湾 ，为推进汉留组织，“开山立堂，定名为金台山明伦堂”，并遣部将蔡德忠等向中原发展，至福建莆田九连山少林 寺为僧，与郑成功之侄郑君达等共图义举。康熙十一年(1672年)西鲁入侵，蔡德忠与郑君达等前往投效，打 败西鲁。后遭陷害，逃至万云山的万山寺，遇万云龙及陈 近南。雍正十二年在四川雅州以汉留组织，开精忠山，是为四川哥老会之始。

Back to the drawing board Frank!

EJ

PS: If you are interested in finding out more about Cai De-Zhong in Chinese source, here is the Google search page for your interest:

EJ

PS: If you are interested in finding out more about Cai De-Zhong in Chinese source, here is the Google search page for your interest:



How quickly we forget Frank....

[hskwarrior]

you'll have to do better than that because i got more on the hung mun than you do.

what else do you have?

not impressed.

i can probably show you just as much on the same lines as you. but i have more that contradicts yours.

anyways, i don't really trust chinese dates too much sine we all know china had some horrific recording skills.

what you got next?

[Fu-Pow]

So now you've got an official government history of martial arts in Guangdong province that doesn't mention GGM or Cai Ze Dong....

And Cai Ze Dong lived 150 yrs before he ever could have taught Jeong Yim....


......looks like you guys are going to have to cook up some other mysterious figure from Chinese history to be the GGM.

[Fu-Pow]

you'll have to do better than that because i got more on the hung mun than you do.

what else do you have?

not impressed.

i can probably show you just as much on the same lines as you. but i have more that contradicts yours.

Ok...let's see it.




anyways, i don't really trust chinese dates too much sine we all know china had some horrific recording skills.

what you got next?

Funny how you want to quote "official histories" but only when it serves your evangelical propaganda...you really should have become an evangelical preacher Frank, you missed your calling.

FP

[hskwarrior]

what else do you got to prove that?

[hskwarrior]

NB: this page contains non ascii characters -
you may need to download and install extra character sets

Triad
Triad (Simplified Chinese: 三合会; Traditional Chinese: 三合會; Hanyu Pinyin: Sānhéhuì; literally "Triad Society") is a collective term that describes many branches of an underground society and organizations based in Hong Kong and also operating in Mainland China, Macao, and Chinatowns in Europe, North America, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand.

There are about 57 triad groups that are active in modern Hong Kong; many of them are no more than small, local street gangs. The larger groups, including the Sun Yee On, Wo Shing Wo and 14K, are syndicates of sophisticated criminals, mirror images of such similar western empires of crime as the mafia.

Their activities include drug trafficking, money laundering, illegal gambling, prostitution, car theft and other forms of racketeering. A major source of triad income today comes from the counterfeiting intellectual property such as computer software, music CDs and movie VCDs/DVDs. They also trade in bootleg tobacco products.

History of triads Precursor to triads
Tian Di Hui Post-imperial developments
Migration to Hong Kong Sustenance from 1980s Activities overseas
Recent developments Triad organizational structure Triad oaths
Tongs Gang fighting Organized crime
Dealing with triad problems in schools How triads are tackled in Hong Kong Portrayal of triad societies in popular culture
Public figures alleged to have or have had triad ties List of Triads, Tongs and Chinese Gangs Triads
Criminally Influenced Tongs Chinese Gangs Miscellaneous information
See also




History of triads


Precursor to triads—Tian Di Hui
The Triads were started as a resistance to the Manchu Emperor of the Qing Dynasty. In the 1760s, a society called the Tian Di Hui (Heaven and Earth Society) was formed in China. Its purpose was to overthrow the Manchu-led Qing Dynasty and restore Han Chinese rule. As the Tiandihui spread through different parts of China, it branched off into many groups and became known by many names, one of which was "Sanhehui" (Chinese: 三合會; Hanyu Pinyin: sānhéhuì; Yale Cantonese: saam1 hap6 wui2), literally "Three Harmonies Society", referring to the unity between Heaven, Earth, and Man.

These societies accordingly made use of the triangle in their imagery. The name "triad" was coined by British authorities in Hong Kong, referring to that use of triangular imagery.


Post-imperial developments
Over several centuries, what is known as triads today developed from a patriotic society to a criminal organization. Following the overthrowing of the Qing Dynasty of China in 1911, the Hung clan (洪門) suddenly found themselves lost without purpose. Worse still, they somehow managed to miss out on the opportunity to participate in the actual uprising, and many of them were left angry and depressed. Unable to revert to normal civilian lives after spending years living under outlawry, grave danger and extreme violence, many ex-rebels reunited to form a cult which later came to be known as the Triad. Having lost the usual donations and support from the public after the collapse of the Qing empire, members of the newly formed cult resorted to money extortion from the unwilling public through all possible means.

[hskwarrior]

now what?


http://website.leidenuniv.nl/~haarbjter/169_014.pdf

thats gotta hurt.

[Fu-Pow]

now what?


http://website.leidenuniv.nl/~haarbjter/169_014.pdf

thats gotta hurt.

Well this document never mentions Cai Ze Dong. Furthermore, it says that the Hung Mun was founded on the basis of people that never existed but were part of folklore.

It really only talks about 1780's and onward.

How does this help your point that Cai Ze Dong=Ching Cho Wo Sheun ? I don't get it.

[Fu-Pow]

Precursor to triads—Tian Di Hui
The Triads were started as a resistance to the Manchu Emperor of the Qing Dynasty. In the 1760s, a society called the Tian Di Hui (Heaven and Earth Society) was formed in China. .


Ok, so you're saying that Cai Ze Dong didn't found the Hung Mun? How does that make your point?

[Fu-Pow]

I think all you've shown is that its unlikely that Cai Ze Dong even existed and was most likely part of Chinese folklore.

Congratulations!!!

[hskwarrior]

i'll break it down to you once again my young student.

in the book called "Hung Mun" which heavily chronicles much of the history of the Hung Mun, tells of the Hung Mun being founded long ago by another five ancestors. Tsai Te Chung, Li Sik Hoi, Fong Dai Hung, and the others were the latter 5 ancestors. then were the tigers generals. and so forth. there was also a group of women involved with it also.

but thats enough history for you today fu pow. try and absord some of it.

but i have a question for you......."what about the dates you quouted me about Cai DeZhong?" What about them?

are you admitting you attacked me without actually knowing something about the hung mun secret society?

yet in their records as Tsai Te Chung is the head of the 5 ancestors.

are you going to tell me now that Tsai Te Chung and Cai DeZhong are not the same person?

Have you ever read that book called the Hung Mun?

actually i would say no, you didn't did you? of course not, cause if you did then you would even know the secret Fan Ching Fu Ming poem, wouldn't you?

what now? fu Pow.

[hskwarrior]

do you not understand that Cai Dezhong and the other 4 are the second group of "5 " ancestors?

of course you wouldn't.

[hskwarrior]

here's a section of a Hung Ga site (not Choy Lee Fut related) talking about the history of the Shaolin Temple.

"After this skirmish, the monks pulled back into the temple to re-think their options. It was decided that they would stay in the temple and booby trap all the entrances. General Chan Man Yiu ordered his men to set fire to the temple. While the general's men were doing this, Ching Cho ordered the monks to go to the tunnel to escape. They didn't realize that Chan had filled the far end of the tunnel with gunpowder devices. Many monks were trapped and killed in the tunnel. Ching Cho ordered the remaining men back to the temple. By then, it was almost morning, and the temple had burned to the ground. Upon counting, Ching Cho descended that the survivors would later meet the Wu Lung river. Ching Cho descend the mountain in a rage, seeking out the only person who could have given away the secret of the tunnel escape route. He later found Ma Chut and killed him on the spot. At the river, there were only five men. They were: "

1. Wu Dak Dei

2. Choy Dak Jung
3. Lei Sik Hoi

4. Fong Dai Hung
5. Ma Chiu Hing

[hskwarrior]

here's another NON CLF web source that speaks of the Gree Grass Monk.....

The 'Five Elders of Shaolin', honoured as the 'true progenitors' by martial artists, appeared at the time of Zhi Shan. They were Wu Mei, Zhi Shan himself, Bai Mei, Feng Daode and Miao Xian. All five contri-buted greatly to the development of Southern-style martial arts. For our present purposes, we will leave aside the feuds that developed among the Five Elders, and examine instead the way that the Shaolin Monastery in Fujian was run under Zhi Shan.

The latter, in order to foster Shaolin martial artists of the highest calibre, both appointed his senior disciple Xing Yin (also known as the Qingcao Monk, or the Monk of the Green Grass) as the monastery's chief instructor in martial arts, in charge of the 36 chambers, and devised the Luohan Hall (or 'corridor of wooden dummies') as a final test for students. This was a secret chamber where students underwent a particularly intense form of training. It housed 108 wooden figures that could be manipulated mechanically to attack anyone who entered the chamber. On entering the chamber, a student would be forced to use all his faculties to the full to defend himself against these mechanisms, especially since the figures were not only animated but mobile. Many students found the experience a harrowing ordeal, and those of lesser abilities often emerged with quite serious injuries. The Shaolin Monastery put all of its students through extremely rigid trials, but they were not permitted to leave the monastery until they had passed through the Luohan Hall.

[hskwarrior]

Kuanyin Pavilion : Official founding sites mentioned Hei


In recent years, some scholars have under - such as Fujian and Zhejiang Governor Mrs. Rana trial files, Chenbiao the memorial to the throne, and field survey data that is to Kuanyin Pavilion Hei monk in Qianlong 26 (1761) official founding location.


Zhang River located in the south wing covered the riverside high seven East Kuanyin Pavilion, sit in the south-western, two into one center, covering 500 square metres, house of wood-stone structure still Peak, the construction can not research. Sound offer sacrifice to Goddess of Mercy, Lohan and mention Hi statue.


Question Hi (1721-1779), the clouds, a name Zheng, also known as Tu Hi, Ruming Hung, ranked second, that hung two monks. Local records, to Hei in Qianlong 26 (1761), in which the creation of heaven and earth will teach the "three means to object", "mean by heart" and "thumb for the day, little finger to the" hand vote, and advocates "to Taoyuan customs justice as an example to Shuipo Liangshan hero as a model," won the Friends of the endorsement and support.


Hei direct leadership of the Qianlong to 33 years (1768) gained 35 Lumao uprising and Qianlong (1770) Li Shao Min Zhaoan uprising.


Qianlong 33 years (1768) of more than 300 people will be led by Lu Mao arm-offensive maneuver counties. Porcelain bowls to the overall lead Dingzhuang'll have Dayou, will be of 33 people killed, the public will have the rest fled. Zhang Lin Sun rates weighed on the search homes, Lumaobini Hill, were issued with iwi Lu describes officials reported the capture.


Qianlong 34 years in the early 35 Winter Solstice (1769 Winter Solstice early 1770), Li Shao Min focal event of the village had Zhaoan, will be of mild, gestation stage a rebellion; Support and advance the Ming Dynasty royal kin Zhuzhenxing mainly red silk sewn Fu letter. Unexpectedly bad things plane, and finally rounded up by government failure.


Both incidents were mentioned Hi secretly instigated arrested will only have to comply with these rules, do not vent its name known. Subsequently, the only side-Chenbiao advised, Chen Biao Fu Yan tobacco, cigarettes Dongdu Taiwan Fu Yan Linshuangwen eventually led to Qianlong 51 years (1786) Taiwan will be massive vista uprising.

[hskwarrior]

i think all should read this.

there is some real interesting things about the Hung Mun in there.

http://sunzi1.lib.hku.hk/hkjo/view/26/2602680.pdf

give it a second or two to kick in, then it nothing move your cursor.

[hskwarrior]

Fu Pow,

what can you say now about what i just dropped onto your lap?

watch, i bet it will either be something stupid, or you won't say anything worth while at all.

To everyone else......i liked Eddie's interest into what i may know, so i started to share what i've learned about the green grass monk.

this had nothing to do with fu pow, yet he found it his business to immediately assume (like he always does) than i know nothing about which i speak.

Yet again. at the top of the thread i mention "eddie" and shared what i knew with him. fu pow tried to shoot it down. So i dropped a mess of stuff on him.

i apologize for my participation in his little charade.

hsk

[hskwarrior]

what happened?

cat got your tongue fu pow?

[hskwarrior]

This accounts for the 5
famous Southern Families Choy, Li, Mok, Hung, and Lau; Fut was carried on by Gi Sin’s top student Ng Ging who later changed his name
to Ching Cho Wor Seung (Green Grass Monk).



wow that came from the article written on the Ng Ga Kuen. so it's obvious that the green grass monk existed when other systems who have nothing to do with CLF

[hskwarrior]

But i do want to say that what Fu Pow did was pretty weak.

Once again he attacked me and what i know about my branch and its history.

When I dropped some evidence on him in guise of other's academic research on the Hung Mun Secret Society, he punks out and puts me on his ignore list so he doesn't have to face being faced!!!!!

The history of The Hung SIng Kwoon is slowly and surely coming back into the picture, Government sponsored websites from china all speak about Jeong Hung Sing so i hope people now can realize that the history that i have been spreading about the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon is not of my own accord.

Our history is our history. If you have not tried to research our history, then you don't have to right to shoot it down without anything to back it up.

Either accept that i did my research, or either do your own, or don't be negative at all.

The last link i posted has actually Hung Mun documents in it and the dates it was re-oraganized.

I was only trying to share what i have, but Fu Pow made it his personal mission to try and debunct what i was sharing with his own inadequacies, and ignorance.

if many of you were more open minded and interested in researching what i shared with you so far, i'm down for some open conversations.


hsk

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

You seem to have this thing about no one speaks about Jeong Hung Sing.

If you have access to the Chen Family archive then you would have seen pages and pages written about him and what he did. You won't see them because your mind and your eyes are already closed.

All CLF history are interconnected and interwoven, there are less than 6 degrees of separation between us, this idea of MY history and YOUR history means you are already seeing yourself outside the circle. No wonder you are playing on your own!

Hey brother, take a break, look around and come inside.

EJ:D

[hskwarrior]

thanks joseph,

i appreciate your input. however, I don't fully trust the CHan Family records when it comes to Jeong Yim.

Brother Joseph,.......are you suggesting that i ignore Jeong Yim direct branch and their history and trust ONLY Chan Heung when it comes to Jeong Yim?

I only trust Chan Family for CHan Family history. I would NEVER use them as a source for Hung Sing or Buk Sing Kwoons history.

Being a Hung Sing disciple if i never listened to the FUt San Hung SIng Kwoon and only trusted in the Chan Family history then I would have to believe Jeong Yim came into the next picture much much later.

We would also have to trust that the green grass monk is CHoy Fook. we would have to believe that Jeong Yim was sent by chan heung in 1867 to fut san to open a school. Basically, the Chan Family can write their story according to how they see fit.

but when it comes to the history of the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon i would go directly to them no one else to learn their history. it is completely RIDICULOUS to rely on any one but the source to research history.

Joseph, if i followed the chan family account, then i would have to believe that Chan Heung was using Jeong Yim's Hung Sing first in fut san. However, with a little research, we come to realize the Jeong Yim's and Chan Heung's HungSing only sound the same but are two completely different sets of characters. one means Great Sage Hung, while the other means GLorious Victory or the Wild Goose Winning.

If i was to trust the chan family, i would never have learned that Jeong Yim's hsk was closed down by the ching in 1864, Jeong Yim fled to hong kong and came back to fut san in 1867.

If i were to trust the chan family history i would have to believe that Jeong Yim was in the picture in the late 1860's when government records show jeong yim organized the Hung SIng Kwoons in Fut San (all of his own group) in 1851 at the beginning of the Tai Ping Rebellion.

Joseph, there's alot harder evidence about Jeong Yim's involvement with the Hung Mun and all the revolutions that happened in and around Fut San than what the chan family can provide.

If all Choy Lee Fut bowed down to Chan Heung because he was the first founder, how can you explain that in the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon there are no photo's or paintings of Chan Heung in any of the studios except for Chan Heungs?

See Joseph, the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon has a very legitimate history which needs to be heard. Their are many famous Hung Sing Kwoon Disciples that belong to the Fut San Hung SIngKwoon that the Chan family doesn't make mention of.....for example, Wu Qin, Qian Wei Fang, Liang Hui Hua, Li So, and many others.

Nowhere in English do you see that In 1868 CHan Heung's Choy Lee Fut took on a major re-development. Why have they kept that out of the history? Why was there a major re-devolpment?

Why doesn't the Chan family explain away how CHan Koon Pak never learned Gung fu from his father, but yet he is on the direct family tree as if he was passing down chan Heung's gung fu. He wasn't teaching Chan family CLF. what was he teaching? Something that Jeong Yim taught him possibly?

I would love to read the Chan Family Kuen Po's and history. However, Fut San Has their own Records, Kuen Po's and history.

See, how can the Chan Family explain that if Choy Fook was the Green Grass Monk, then how did the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon recover ancestral tablets with his name on it in fut san during japanese invasion. The Green Grass Monk passed on the In and Out bagua, which Chan Ngua Sing dissected into 3 major forms....Ping Kuen, Kou Da Kuen and Cheung Kuen. Does the Chan Family practice these forms joseph?

i think its obivous that Jeong Yim's Ping Kuen and Chan Heung's Ping Kuen's are two completely different sets.

But before I end this my brother Joseph, can you answer me a question?

"Why should i believe the chan family account of the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon, when the source of the Hung Sing Kwoon has a whole different account of the history?

Also, how come no one ever speaks about the time that Chan Heung left king mui going all over the place. He wasn't developing his gung fu. he may have been spreading it, but when he came back to King Mui, there was more going on than when he left. so who developed the gung fu for him while he was gone?


hsk

There is too many open ended questions that can never be answered joseph.

I think for the safety of all our branches in the future all branches should just let the others tell their stories.

[hskwarrior]

brother joseph,

i'm inside the circle you speak of because i can see more than you think.

To tell you the truth, CLF history became a passion of mine. in that time i have come to realize that if we listen to only the chan family CLF then the Fut San HSK history and jeong yim will be forgotten, then we would have to rely on historical records writtne by chan heung's family and not of Jeong Yim's students and grandstudents.

there are like i said fut san historical records, why should i believe Chan Heung's version over the founder of my branch?

We all know that Jeong Yim was one of of the most famous, prolific, and trusted disciples of Chan Heung. He had even surpassed the greatness of Chan Heung with all of his efforts to spread CLF and his reputation as a fighter.

However. Jeong Yim went around spreading CLF with chan Heung. He obeyed his sifu Monk Ching Cho and went to the Fut San Hung Mun branch, introduced himself, and joined in on assisting the revolution. he was not travelling around as the chan family would like us to believe.

the facts are this.....

Jeong Yim learned first from Lee Yau San, then Chan Heung, then Monk Ching Cho.

Jeong Yim got his new name from Ching Cho which meant victory to the Hung Mun. Monk Ching CHo was one of the 2nd founding fathers of the Hung Mun. Much like you say Chan Heung started CLF first then Jeong Yim came behind him and took it to a new level. Ching Cho used the name of his organization (which wasn't thefirst time the name Hong SHeng was used the same way in someone's name) "Hung" and "Victory" because they were trying to overthrow the Ching Empire.


Jeong Yim had two kids who died early on as well. he was married to a woman named Chan Kay.


Why doesn't the Chan Family tell of this?

why is it that the Chan Family records stop with chan heung's family line?

is it because of bloodline?

if thats the case i'll stick to the fut san hung sing kwoon when i want to know my history.

but thanks joseph.

[hskwarrior]

Joseph,

I was just thinking. I want you and the other Choy Lee Fut people to know, that history is just a small part of what CLF is all about. History is something to refer to, it doesn't help you out when it comes to fighting.

Aside of the historical battle, I DON'T have ANY problems with CHan Family CLF. I actually think after seeing Chan Yong Fa and his people I'm impressed with their CLF, and see a whole lot of effective stuff, and would NEVER say i found it impractical.

I've never had any problems with Chan Family fighting, or their forms. i don't really have problems with their own history. the only problem i have with as many huge gaping holes in their history (let's not forget the Tiger incident) is them trying to tell US OUR history.

We will listen to our own lineage when it comes to wanting to know our history.
we will tell our history as it has been passed down.

And, just because i choose to research my branches history doesn't mean i'm wrong. Like i said long long ago. We thought Chan Heung had to do alot with the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon, until we started to research our history, kept digging and now i'm convinced the only place to learn Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon history IS.........FUT SAN HUNG SING KWOON. Not Chan Family CHOY LEE FUT.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

I can give you an explanation of most of the questions you have raised but I am not going to because they bear no relationship to the big picture that we all came from the same root and that there is an unity in the multiplicity of things that we do.

I give you an example, you asked "Jeong Yim had two kids who died early on as well. he was married to a woman named Chan Kay. Why doesn't the Chan Family tell of this?" I would ask you, "Why the Chan Family has tell others about his private life when it beared no relationship to the history and development of CLF?"

All styles of Kung Fu, include CLF is not just about blood line, what good is blood line is there is no skill? Do you think Chen Yong-Fa can be where he is today without skill and hard work? Those video you've got showing his students going through their stuff just don't came by themselves.

The Chan Family has a lot to offer because many of Chan Heung's descendants are still alive and teaching! But you keep trying to shoot them down with your non-sense about history instead of learning and sharing knowledge with them.

You have no sense of good manners and propriety.

Enough said, the bottom line is, whethere you trust the Chan Family or not, Jeong Yim was not the founder of CLF, but he was a great CLF pioneer and everyone , including the Chan Family, acknowledged that.

Are youy satisfied?

No, of course not! You will go on and on and on and on....

:(

[extrajoseph]

And, just because i choose to research my branches history doesn't mean i'm wrong. Like i said long long ago. We thought Chan Heung had to do alot with the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon, until we started to research our history, kept digging and now i'm convinced the only place to learn Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon history IS.........FUT SAN HUNG SING KWOON. Not Chan Family CHOY LEE FUT

Hi Frank,

You can learn anywhere you choose, just don't confuse history with where you want to learn your CLF.

Can we have some peace now?

:(

[hskwarrior]

i beg to differ with you joseph.

You act like I say Chan Heung's personal history is wrong. I've never done that. I admit that the chan family has a lot of holes in their story. So does the Hung Sing Kwoon.

I've never told someone not to join the chan family of CLF. I've never spoken ill of Chan Family CLF.

When i asked the questions about Jeong Yim, i wanted to demonstrate that if anyone wants to know about Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon, they should 1) either go to fut san and do some research, 2) research as much material on this branch as you can.

See, I believe in the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon is because of the info that comes out of it such as it's involvement in the Hung Mun and the Revolution is easily traceable.

Until now most everybody had only heard the Chan Family version of CLF. The Hung Sing branch has always passed down our history orally. No one new that the Fut San HSK was still active undgerground until the late 1990's. They re-emerged and since then everyone is wanting to know the history according to Jeong Hung Sing, which is slightly different to that of Chan Heung.

anyways, Chan Heung's account of Jeong Yim seems to be really different to that of his own direct branches account. Chan Ngau Sing's account of his sifu differs from that of Chan Heung. Yuen Hai's account to Lau Bun differs from Chan Family CLF about Jeong Yim.

Speaking of Yuen Hai, I believe in the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon so much that if we wanted to.......we ....Professor Lau Bun's branch.......could take advantage of the Chan Family account of Yuen Hai being Loong Gee Choi's first student. Since Loong Gee Choy is Chan Heung's First student, that places Yuen Hai's lineage amongst the highest in Choy Lee Fut, even higher than Koon Pak, and such.

however, we believe in the fut san lineage of Hung SIng Choy Lee Fut.

[hskwarrior]

lastly joseph,

all i've ever tried to tell people is that if you want to know about the history of the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon, the Chan Family is a great secondary place to start. However, if you want to know about Jeong Yim and his Hung Sing Kwoon, then they should start right here:

http://www.hongshengguan.com
use worldlingo.com to translate pages.

Then search out what other branches say about Jeong Yim. That includes what the Chan Family says about Jeong Yim. but if the Chan Family history of Jeong Yim seems to differ from that of Jeong Yim's history according to his very own branch, students, and their family members who were all in one way or another involved with the branch.

We cannot ever ignore the legacy Jeong Yim left behind, and there is much more to him than what the chan family has to say.

Start with the link and go from there folks. its all out there now.

[hskwarrior]

This is where i end the argument brother Joseph.

I don't wish to argue over the history anymore. I will promote the history and make it available for anyone who wishes to view it. Just follow my history page and links page to see if there's anything new im doing.

You are a great source of info on the Chan Family CLF joseph. I hope you can assist me in the future to fully understand Chan Heung's branch.

Still, i'll go to Fut San to learn more about this branch, and i will go to Buk Sing Elders to learn more about Tam Sam and his legacy. it's the only right thing to do.

If we only rely on Chan Family resources, then we all will miss out on the real history of each branch. People do more research on CLF and you will come to find it is more interesting and doesn't actually stop at or with Chan Heung. Choy Lee Fut originated with Chan Heung, Jeong Yim made his contributions then developed his own brand of CLF, and Tam Sam continued to refine and redefine certain techniques and add a few more.

The Hung Sing and Buk SIng material IS NOT taught within the Chan Family CLF. So, that does not mean it isn't CLF. It most certainly is. without a doubt CLF.

But the argument stops here, and i am more open for discussion than bickering.

hsk

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

That is great, we finally reach an end.

Believe what you like, just don't try to change history to suit your belief, that is all we ask of you.

Cheers and I hope I don't have to write another word on CLF history, ever again!

EJ

[hskwarrior]

as long as the chan family does not try to push aside our history and tell US we are WRONG, and if we can all accept that each branch has a deserving history to be told, then we can all live in peace as one great Choy Lee Fut family.

we are all CLF. let's accept each other's history and be at peace.

once and for all.

hsk

[hskwarrior]

oh, and i don't try to change history.

It wasn't the Hung Sing branch of CLF that claimed Green Grass Monk was a myth since the creation of CLF. No one until a few years ago ever claimed that Green Grass Monk was Monk Choy Fook like they do today.

If you don't call that changing history to suit your own belief, than i'm not sure what you call it.

If i was trying to change history then i would adopt the theory that Yuen Hai was Loong Gee's student, then I'd go around and tell the world we are the highes branch in the Chan Family of Choy Lee Fut since Loong Gee Choy was Chan Heung's first disciple. First, not last, not in the middle, but first.

Changing history is saying that Chan Heung used the Hung Sing name first and Jeong Yim was the second one to use that name. However, as we know now that Jeong Yim's (glorious victory) and Chan Heung's Hung Xiong (great Sage Hung) are two very different characters. But because of my research, we come to learn that now.

Changing history is saying that there are 190 foms in the Chan Family CLF, when originally there were only 49 recorded forms. Where did the other 140 come from? and acting as if Chan Heung created each and every one.

So, when you mention changing history, please keep in mind that you are not only speaking to me, but to anyone in any branch including chan family-should not change history to suit their needs, right?

before i go, bro Joe................. i have a question for you.

"Do you think that the problem with Jeong Yim started when he took over the old blind guys school and changed the schools name to his own?

[iron_silk]

[QUOTE=hskwarrior]lastly joseph,

all i've ever tried to tell people is that if you want to know about the history of the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon, the Chan Family is a great secondary place to start. However, if you want to know about Jeong Yim and his Hung Sing Kwoon, then they should start right here:

http://www.hongshengguan.com
use worldlingo.com to translate pages.

QUOTE]

Hey Frank,

I was just curious about these statements from the Fut Shan website:
"Chen Xiang(1805-1875)enjoyed the prestige of the originator of Cai-Li-Fo."

seems to contradict:
"And Zhang Hongsheng was worshipped as the father of “Cai-Li-Fo”. "

Does it mean they worship Jeurng Yim as the father of the Fut Shan branch but Chan Heung is the originator?

Maybe Fut Shan doesn't have a pic of Chan Heung b/c when Jeurng Yim went to Fut Shan Chan Heung hasn't passed away yet and such a tradition to put a picture on the altar is for ancestors that have already passed away?

[hskwarrior]

Iron Silk,

There is more to the story than i'm allowed to say here. However, no Hung Sing Kwoon's have Chan Heung's Picture on their walls. I am referring to it now being 2006 and with the re-emergence of CLF within China, you'd think if Chan Heung had much to do with Jeong Yim, then there would be a phot of him on the walls.

here is the link if you want to translate it on worldlingo.com
http://www.fschinwoo.com/wushu/2005wuhongi.htm

佛山鸿胜馆与蔡李佛拳

摘录自佛山蔡李佛拳鸿胜馆所编资料《佛山鸿胜馆一百五十年》 梁伟永副馆长提供

蔡李佛拳的形成
清 代，洪、刘、蔡、李、莫被称为广东五大名拳，相传源自南少林。蔡福、李友山分别为蔡家拳、李家拳的代表人物 。
　　 广东新会县京梅乡陈享(1815─1875)，自幼随族叔（少林俗家弟子）陈远护习武，后拜李友山、蔡福为 师。新会县双水镇下村（今东凌村）人张炎(1824─1893)，自幼爱习武，曾拜李友山为师，后随陈享习 武，17岁时投奔广西八排山闸建寺青草和尚，得传以佛门内外八卦拳等技艺及医术。

the highlighted area being Chan Heung's name and birthdate.

Now, Jeong Yim learned from Lee Yau San before learning from CHan Heung. As it is passed down from Jeong Yim, he only learned from Chan Heung for about 5 years. he then went to Monk Ching Cho and studied with him for about 8 years.

According to our history, Jeong Yim only returned to Chan Heung to thank Chan Heung for all his help, possibly even to pay a visit to his former sifu. He thanked Chan Heung, and in doing so showed what he learned from Monk Ching Cho and it was at this point that Chan Heung began to add in some of the things from Jeong Yim.

Chan Heung created a Choy Lee Fut for his Chan Clan Members, and within his own bloodline is another level of CLF not taught to your lay students. Outside of this direct branch of CLF you will not learn their forms.

In Jeong Yim's Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon he began to teach a mixture of gung fu he learned from Lee Yau San, Chan Heung, and Monk Ching Cho. The latter being his last sifu. The Gung Fu taught at Jeong Yim's Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon was not the same as being passed down within Chan Heung's branch.

if you read the history, there was a long period of time when Chan Heung left Ging Mui and travelled all over. While Jeong Yim was in Fut San working and fighting along side the revolutionaries of Southern China, he developed his gung fu according to his own needs. Then shaping that into what his disciples needed.

Jeong Yim's CLF wasn't finished even after his own death. that's when Chan Ngau Sing broke up the In and Out Bagua Kuen. Fut San's Ping Kuen, Kau Da Kuen and Cheung Kuen contain many elements of what the In and Out bagua was like.

So. there fore, as i've said before, Chan Heung's gung fu and Jeong Yim's gung fu pretty much only had the basics that were in common. Jeong Yim delevoped his own branches gung fu while Chan Heung did the same for the students of his school (who were all mainly named chan.

[extrajoseph]

Changing history is saying that Chan Heung used the Hung Sing name first and Jeong Yim was the second one to use that name. However, as we know now that Jeong Yim's (glorious victory) and Chan Heung's Hung Xiong (great Sage Hung) are two very different characters. But because of my research, we come to learn that now.

Hi FRank,

Obvious you want to be shot down in flame again.


Everyone who read Chinese knows the characters for (Gloriuos Victory) Hung Sing and for (Great Sage) Hung Sing are different, you don't need to do "research" to know that, and if you know anything of Chinese history then you will know it was not very wise to use the characeter Hung for "great" in the Qing time because it was the name of the founder of the previous Ming dynasty. You only come to know it now because you can't read Chinese and don't know Chinese history!


Changing history is saying that there are 190 foms in the Chan Family CLF, when originally there were only 49 recorded forms. Where did the other 140 come from? and acting as if Chan Heung created each and every one.

If you count them carefully, there are 135 to be exact and that has to do with the the numbers 3 and 5 (3X3X3X5=135) - that is with the philosophic concept of San Cai (Tian, Di and Ren - Heaven, Earth and Man) and the five cardinal directions (front, back, left, right and center including up and down).

Frank, if you can learn a bit of Chinese philosophy, Chinese history and the Chinese language, it will help you understand better the CLF history. People in the old days don't make things up out of nothing like you do!

There are more than 49 forms and that number is not very auspicious and no respectible Chinaman will settle for this number! So if you want to make something up, make it credible to a scholar-warrior of the old school, otherwise they will just laugh you out of the clasroom.

Frank, you are shooting yourself in the feet everytime you open your trap! I don't know whether to laugh or feeling sorry for you!

:(

[hskwarrior]

won't this one send you for a flip......

This is a copy of a Shaolin site who records CLF history. In the begining the story was that Chan Heung either learned from Green Grass Monk, or was going to so he sent Jeong Yim instead. but he the story has Chan Heung working for the green grass monk.


Foshan Hongshengwu Museum Spring Festival

Sheng Museum of origins reported : Guangxu at the court's, Foshan to a martial arts chief instructor in the village of Tan Temple Mount purple signs hanging out Sheng Museum, Professor for attacking.
The chief instructor went from inflammation, Xinhui Shek mouth, and his rehabilitation will Wushu-Chen people enjoy (also known as Chan enjoy); Chen Pai Hill since Guangxi eight grass monk there to learn; Grass is the Fujian Shaolin monk robe concealing the classics disciples. Chen began apprentice, water daily from San Tan Kok Peak, 4,600 food supply. He accompanied heavy iron shoes, with the end of one pair of sharp steel water tanks, on Hill Road, rugged rock formation, at a stretch to leap to undertake water tortuous hill. After similar manner practiced hard, Chen learned the grass makes.
Wushu Chen after the body of his son to Anbo, Bo and her master Zhang. Zhang finish an apprenticeship, initially located in Jiangmen Museum began showing up, take as teacher mostly stevedores, these workers are the Lion Museum, because of tyrants like, from the Museum scatter workers want to learn to walk tyrants Wushu recover Lion Museum. Chang Tai flu grievances heard, MA and tyrants contest for Taiwanese killing tyrants, then became electronic bulletin boards, located on the Museum began showing up in Lion Museum named : :-adding in the meantime Foshan, located beyond the Museum began showing up Felix, Leican, Huang Kuan, Cheung Sam David and Huang 4.
Felix is the first disciple, inherited the mantle and alms bowl Zhang. There is a tortuous read. Felix animal, is Foshan copper platinum workers. He is the Zhoujinbiao disciples, Guangxu five years (1883) 19-year-old Chen, Zhou to return, Chang Chen-worship for the division to continue their education. 1 week to bring senior researcher Chen on purpose in coming. Chen Yan see where the dragon master, and Chinese boxing Chuquan air and long, much Otherwise, inevitably Hin in color. Yan Sum know not, we also want to see Felix martial arts skills, and then ask their teachers than burning Chen. Chen told the anxious, and he immediately end the meantime moving pieces, no one is really Felix opponent.
Chen exaltation, adding with a laugh : "old fellow like me to try it!" Chan an aggressive, and undoubtedly will be judged together.
Zhang said : "I now want you to do in the east, you have to pay careful attention! "23 of fist and foot, Chen thrown down to the black in the east; Zhang Batafu up said : "You Taidayi, now I want you to fall in the west, you have learned to be careful! "But for one reason or one, Chen has thrown down to the black in the west.
Felix stood up, Zhang said : "This is you in the middle. "Sure enough several rounds, Chen black in the middle of what was thrown down. Chen was willing to take as teacher.
After training, to make the inner sheets. Subsequently adding to the Shunde Co. located Museum, and local chief instructor training for older gas declined missing hand, Chen is committed to the division revenge to the Co. with a "Yin in" approach to the chief instructor defeat. Zhang announced the presence of Jews, mantle and alms bowl to Felix. So Zhang's presentation, and then only Chen Bishop, ancestral hall was known as the Lion. (see Chen strata, "Guangdong historical data," 16)

[extrajoseph]

Jeong Yim's CLF wasn't finished even after his own death. that's when Chan Ngau Sing broke up the In and Out Bagua Kuen. Fut San's Ping Kuen, Kau Da Kuen and Cheung Kuen contain many elements of what the In and Out bagua was like.

So. there fore, as i've said before, Chan Heung's gung fu and Jeong Yim's gung fu pretty much only had the basics that were in common. Jeong Yim delevoped his own branches gung fu while Chan Heung did the same for the students of his school (who were all mainly named chan.)

Hi Frank,

Do you know the Chan Family has 8 sets of Bagua forms and they have been around since Chan Heung's time? If Jeong Yim knew them all, then why Chan Ngau Sing has to make more of them up in Futsan?

Before you you claim Jeong Yim developed his own Kung Fu please check out what the Chan Family has got first, otherwise you will shoot yourself in the feet again.

:(

[hskwarrior]

joseph,

you don't think you've proven me wrong do you?

it's cool though. as i've said, my arguments over.


hsk

[hskwarrior]

jeong Yim passed a set on to Chan Ngau Sing called In and Out bagua. the total number of moves in it was 1080. because He wanted to make it easier to learn, chan Ngau Sing dissected that form into the three set's i've mentioned.

So what Chan Heung has more bagua forms than Jeong Yim. IF Jeong Yim was learning all of Chan Heung's stuff then he should have learned those, and we should have been passing them down. but we don't. because the In and Out bagua (only 1 set) was what Monk Ching Cho passed down to Jeong Yim, then was passed down to Chan Ngau Sing.

Now, again, why are you trying to tell me what Chan Ngau Sing was teaching? we you there? Are you going to dispute that this is what his students were practicing? How can you? you were'nt there, and you're not a Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon disciple.

[hskwarrior]

wait a minute joseph.......

you act like Chan Heung created each and every form in HIS choy lee fut system. Now you and i both know thats is a bunch of bs, right?


so you are telling me that CHan Koon Pak never created any forms for his school?

what about Chan Yiu Chi? chan Wan Hon?

so no one contributed to the developement of Chan Heung's CLF but him?

is that what you are telling me?


hsk

[hskwarrior]

if Jeong Yim learned all of Chan Heung's 8 Bagua Sets, then how do you explain that not one of them are taught in the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon?


hsk

[hskwarrior]

flame wars.....no. a converstation yes. get it straight.

now, how many people outside of the chan family new what characters Chan Heung's branch used until recently? Half the ClF people have only heard from DFW that Chan Heung used the name hung sing leading everyone to believe that Chan Heung was using Jeong Yim's Hung Sing.

but untill not too long ago people we able to compare the two and thats when we've realized that Yeah, chan heung used hung sing. but Jeong Yim's was different, how can CHan Heung use it first?

if you read chinese and are privy to certain things thats fine. great for you.


hsk

[hskwarrior]

wow joseph. I'm honored.

regardless of what your reasons were good or bad, you took the time out to check out my site. thanks brother.

[hskwarrior]

let's go brother joe. I'm waiting for your response.

If you haven't realized yet, I'll squeesze ya like a Boa Constrictor for information.

anything you tell me gives me more for the chan side of the pie.

regardless of my methods, i'll get what i want.


hsk

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

"if Jeong Yim learned all of Chan Heung's 8 Bagua Sets, then how do you explain that not one of them are taught in the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon?"

May be Jeong Yim has not learned the Bagua sets, or may be he didn't have the time to teach them in Futsan. Why don't you ask the Futsan people?

The theories of Yin/Yang, Bagua and Wuxing are the foundations of Chinese philosophy, so it is not surprising that CLF would have them built into the system.

As to who made them all up over time, it is hard to be sure, but Chan Yiu-Chi was definitely the first in the family systematically written them down based on knowledge passed down by his grandfather Chan Heung and his father Koon Pak. Don't forget others may also have kept records they learned from their teachers before Yiu-Chi's time.

Isn't it amazing that Chen Yong-Fa actually learned from his grandfather, the same Chan Yiu-Chi and he is still alive and teaching? What other CMA can you find that nowadays? I sat in one of Barry Hale's class in SF with Ng Fu Heng, they are dedicated and and knowledgeable people and you should check them out before you keep bashing the Chan Family.

EJ

[extrajoseph]

let's go brother joe. I'm waiting for your response.

If you haven't realized yet, I'll squeesze ya like a Boa Constrictor for information.

anything you tell me gives me more for the chan side of the pie.

regardless of my methods, i'll get what i want.


hsk

Frank,

You can squeeze and squeeze and squeeze, where I come from it will never run dry! But you won't get what you want because what you want is not there.

:D

[hskwarrior]

thanks for that joseph.

However, I do keep in touch with Fu Hang Ng's people.

As a matter of fact, that's a good idea. I will contact my friend there, and maybe he can ask his sifu for me.

I didn't think of that.


be back later.

hsk

[hskwarrior]

an oh yeah,

i haven't bashed anyone. I have questions and want them answered. you seemed like the most logical one. but you set me on another path.

Just cause i don't follow the chan's account of who Jeong Yim was, what he did or what ever doesn't mean i'm bashing anyone.

[Fu-Pow]

Hi Frank,

May be Jeong Yim has not learned the Bagua sets, or may be he didn't have the time to teach them in Futsan. Why don't you ask the Futsan people?

EJ

Or alternatively maybe he never learned them because he wasn't interested or didn't feel that they added anything to his knowledge. Of maybe he left his Sifu too early to ever learn them.

From my experience with the one Ba Gua set (Ba Gua Saam, the Tao Lu in my video) that I learned, it didn't reallly add a whole lot to my fighting knowledge.

Yes, it is more difficult to execute because it is more complex and acrobatic and is definitely good training but I'm not sure as much of it is readily applicable for fighting as a form like Saap Ji Kau Dah.

If Jeong Yim was the fighter that some claim him to be then I could see him skipping over a lot of the fancier stuff in favor of the more simple and practical in fighting.

I am realizing that the number of forms that you have doesn't equal fighting ability. If you have the core forms and tear those apart and test them under pressure then you can actually become a better fighter than those that have a myriad of forms and that's all they ever practice. There are only so many hours in the day...if you're practicing Tao Lu then you're not practicing application and vice versa.

In other words, # forms doesn't = ability to use all that knowledge.

A little bit of knowledge is all you need to be dangerous. Its what you do with that knowledge that matters.

BTW, hskwarrior is still on my ignore list. I am responding purely to what was posted in extrajoseph's reply to Frank. I have no desire to read Frank's posts any longer. So Frank if you are reading this don't bother responding because I won't be reading it.

FP

[hskwarrior]

hahahahaha.......

after 10 years of his kung fu training, the boy finally learns that its all about quality and about quantity. only those fascinated about quantity aren't fighters at all.

what a contracdiction though. he was always ranting and raving about the 190 forms of the Chan Family. but its good to see the boy is finally starting to see the light.


and brother Joseph, i already set that in motion. and look forward to their reply. at least with my contact, i can have a logical coversation.

he and his sifu are aware of my sites and what i'm doing and i get the thumbs up from them. cool huh?


hsk

[dragon323]

hskwarrior say

"Chan Ngau Sing broke up the In and Out Bagua Kuen. Fut San's Ping Kuen, Kau Da Kuen and Cheung Kuen"

If Ping Kuen, Kau Da Kuen y Cheung Kuen were made by Chan Ngau Sing , how were they known for Lau Bun ?

[Fu-Pow]

This is the second time I've heard of this in and out bagua form. Does anyone know the translation in Chinese?

[hskwarrior]

Because Lau Bun learned through his sifu (yuen Hai) the most early beginnings of Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut. You see, Yuan Hai was a long time student of Jeong Yim, who taught the In and out Bagua Kuen.

So you can say Lau Bun has some pretty old Choy Lee Fut.

we teach Sup Gee Kau da Kuen. Ping Kuen was never a set we practiced. we have a cheung kuen from Lau Bun, but the Fut San Cheung Kuen is much different. Lau Bun's Cheung Kuen is like Fut San's Che Kuen, only 3 times longer.

so what ever Lau Bun learned from Yuen Hai was based on the In and Out bagua kuen.

thank you for asking.

hsk

[hskwarrior]

In and Out 8 diagrams fist.

I think the in and out part in "internal and external"

According to Chan Ngau Sing it was one of the most effective fighting forms the Hung Sing Kwoon had.

[hskwarrior]

To tell you the truth, Lau Bun learned what ever it was that the Hung Sing Kwoon was teaching by the early 1900's.

it makes no difference if he didn't get the Fut San Hung SIng Ping Kuen set. We teach it now, and that's all that matters.

we also teach the Fut San Ping Kuen, Cheung Kuen, Kau Da Kuen, Lin Wan Kuen, Siu Lin Wan, Siu Cheung Kuen, Che Kuen, and a few others that comes from the Fut San Hung SIng kwoon.

But there are other forms within Lau Bun's CLF than those sets.

[extrajoseph]

If Jeong Yim was the fighter that some claim him to be then I could see him skipping over a lot of the fancier stuff in favor of the more simple and practical in fighting.

Hi Fu-Pow,

He did, he fought for CLF like a good trooper, but the "vision" thing came from Chan Heung and that is why he could not have been the founder of CLF nor Futsan Hung Sing, for he made his name as a fearless soldier and not as a thinking general.

One of the reasons why there are so many forms in CLF is that we need the planners as well as the doers to make a system great. A simple idea with a complex structure keeps the group together and the wheels turning smoothly.

You are a thinker, unlike Frank, so you should appreciate what I am saying. What you would do is another matter.

EJ

[Eddie]

wow, that was probably the most mature statement that made allot of sense. thanks Mr Xtra :)

[hskwarrior]

but you eddie are fooled if you believe what joseph was saying about Jeong Yim just being a soldier and not a thinking general as jospeh puts it.

Joseph, please refrain from speaking on Jeong Yim as if you have some kind of personal knowledge on who he was. you are only a chan clan supporter. don't bash him unless you want me to bash on Chan Heung.

Remember what you once told me that you can embarrass the Buk Sing Branch because you said you have knowledge that tam sam wasn't a real fighter at all. i'm sorry, maybe it was someone from Li Iu Ling's lineage that emailed the to me. still, it came from the mouth of a chan family member who acts like he knows things bout other branches he has nothing to do with.

care to explain that away joseph.

for those who read this forum, can you see how the Chan Family is always trying to keep CLF as a whole in their court. as if "let's not talk about them.....let me tell you about Chan heung instead!!!!"""

Jeong Yim was more famous than Chan Heung when it came to the gung fu world. Jeong Yim mad Choy Lee Fut famous.

and joseph, you are utterly and completely wrong when you say that jeong yim didn't found the fut san Hung SIng kwoon. you don't know what you are talking about.

its sad that people don't do the research with an open mind here. they would come to find out that the chan family is NOT the place to learn about Jeong Yim.

For example joseph just said because of the vision thing, jeong yim was only a fearless soldier while emplying that CHan Heung was the master general. HA.

Jeong Yim's name once again is bigger in the whole scheme of things when it comes to CLF. It was his branch that got the more fame.

and you think i am a fighter not a general, a true general never reveals what he does thinks or wants to say until the right time.

Joseph, you have failed to prove me wrong. especially, with language as "he could not have been" instead of he wasn't.

a thinker joseph, doesn't have the time to practice fighting, he is wasting all his time trying to tell others how to fight instead of sharpening up his skills.


joseph.....you stay the thinker ok.

[Fu-Pow]

Hi Fu-Pow,

One of the reasons why there are so many forms in CLF is that we need the planners as well as the doers to make a system great. A simple idea with a complex structure keeps the group together and the wheels turning smoothly.

EJ

I agree with you to some extent. However, I think ideally, as martial artists, we should be both. If you only ever think about martial arts and never "do" martial arts then there is a disconnect between the mind and the body. The theory is important but it must be continually tested against "reality."

I'm going to go off on a tangent here because I've really been wanting to share my latest thinking with people. (I think you're right, I am a thinker Joseph:D )

Recently I've really changed the way I'm thinking about martial arts.
Basically, I would break martial arts training in CLF into 3 aspects.

1) Fundamentals:

-Conditioning (all kinds and Tao Lu can definitely be a part of conditioning)
-Single techniques
-Short combinations
-2-man coreographed or semi-coreographed partner work

2) Tao Lu (forms)

3) San Shou (ie freesparring of all kinds)

All aspects are important and overlap and should integrate with each other. I think that you can use this roadmap to some extent for weapons as well.

However, some people in TCMA seem to only emphasize Tao Lu. I especially think beginners should not spend a lot of time on Tao Lu.

Fundamentals should come first, then some Tao Lu, then San Shou...then all should be integrated and trained simultaneously. Its like most in TCMA have the order screwed up. Mostly it is a little bit of fundamentals, lots of Tao Lu and free sparring is rare or not at all.

This way you end up with good peformers and bad fighters.

Anyways, that's my experience based on my 10 years of dues paid.

FP

[VStanmore]

The topic of why have more than one form, or why have forms at all may be a "been there, done that" topic.
For a perspective on why have form/s, especially when there are repeating techniques and even sequences of techniques, here is a very good article:

http://www.wle.com/thePen/0001.html

People talk about making your techniques and kungfu personalised and work for you. But if you remember that knowledge is accumulative---take a look at science and how through the ages the knowledge is built upon the work of our predecessors. You can see further when you stand on the shoulders of giants.

So it would make sense that if the many clf forms are used to teach and cater for differing body types, athletic ability, aptitude and personality how to use the techniques energetically and strategically to best suit the type of individual.

For example, a short , thin and agile guy may benefit from studying the monkey form whereas a big, bulky guy may find the elephant form more suitable. You can learn a lot from watching nature. You don't normally expect an elephant to fight the same way as a monkey, but they if they fight then they fight!
So if the predecessors have already done the "planning" and "design", wouldn't it be wise to make use of it rather than try to reinvent the wheel. It might save a lot of time, and in fact, standing on the shoulders of giants can let you see further than the guy who refuse to acknowledge he is shorter.

But of course if your forms are nothing more than a performance choreography or an exercise, than yeah you probably benefit little from learning a lot of them.
But if the training philosophy and essence of the forms are kept intact, and the different energy training is understood, there may be good reason to take advantage of different training with different forms.
Do you not think if the predecessors deemed it necessary to record the forms and associated knowledge for future generations, there may be something more them than just an exercise in moving your limbs and body?

[extrajoseph]

Hi Fu-Pow,

After doing nearly 50 years of CLF (and still enjoying it everyday, it is not a due to me, it is a pleasure), I would like to add two comments to yours.

The first is regarding martial and civil (wen-wu in Chinese), as our body gets older, we will naturally slow down and become physically weaker, so the training of the mind become more crucial than the body and the methodology for body conditioning and the fighting techniques used will also have to change (I hardly do any tao lu these days but I can still teach them if required).

This is where CLF has an advantage in keeping us at top condition relating to our age, both mentally and physically because we have qigong as well as kung fu, or some would say we have both the internal as well as the external aspects of a martial art.

The second is regarding your 3 aspects, I think you should include "lian neigong" (training the internal) and "da muren zhuang" (strking the wooden dummies) in your routine. One is very effective in training the internal and the other the external. Again these two are the unique characters of CLF.

Remember the best fighter is one who don't need to fight to win a battle, therefore we should be an accomplished civil as well as martial artist, that is a thinker and a fighter at the same time like you said.

This will be my last posting for a while, I've too much to do and not enough time left to train. Talking to Frank is a real waste of time, he can be a foot soldier for Futsan for the rest of his life for all I care. I am sure this will not be the end of the conversation.

Blah, blah, blah....

Cheers, my CLF brothers,

EJ

[Fu-Pow]

Do you not think if the predecessors deemed it necessary to record the forms and associated knowledge for future generations, there may be something more them than just an exercise in moving your limbs and body?

Hi V-

No I don't think that. The forms are "dense" with information ie movement principles, techniques, strategy, combinations, etc. etc. However, without extracting and isolating these things from the form, and drilling them repetitiously..... you will not become a good fighter.

In addition, you must take the fundamentals and pressure test them to see what works and doesn't work for you in real time...ie San Shou. Maybe you go back to the Tao Lu and look for something that would work better for you. Maybe you haven't spent adequate time on the fundamentals to make them work effectively?

The answer is not always clear and it is what makes it a martial ART and not a martial SCIENCE. If there was a "master formula" that would make us all good fighters then this would be easy.

Tao Lu is important but it is just a piece and one that is over emphasized in modern kung fu. That's my main point.

FP

[Fu-Pow]

Hi Fu-Pow,

The first is regarding martial and civil (wen-wu in Chinese), as our body gets older, we will naturally slow down and become physically weaker, so the training of the mind become more crucial than the body and the methodology for body conditioning and the fighting techniques used will also have to change (I hardly do any tao lu these days but I can still teach them if required).

I understand. I think I need to do more Qi Gong because my injuries are taking longer and longer to heal...and I'm only 30 yrs old!!!




This is where CLF has an advantage in keeping us at top condition relating to our age, both mentally and physically because we have qigong as well as kung fu, or some would say we have both the internal as well as the external aspects of a martial art.

Well unfortunately my branch of CLF doesn't have any Qi Gong, which is too bad I think. There are other ways to get Qi Gong but it won't integrate as well as the Qi Gong designed specifically for CLF....correct me if I'm wrong.



The second is regarding your 3 aspects, I think you should include "lian neigong" (training the internal) and "da muren zhuang" (strking the wooden dummies) in your routine. One is very effective in training the internal and the other the external. Again these two are the unique characters of CLF.

Cool. As I mentioned we don't have Qi Gong so that hadn't occurred to me. We only have 1 of the dummies so that also hadn't occurred to me.




Remember the best fighter is one who don't need to fight to win a battle, therefore we should be an accomplished civil as well as martial artist, that is a thinker and a fighter at the same time like you said.

Absolutely. Mun, Mo, Sun. Scholar, Fighter, Monk ie Mind, Body, Spirit.




This will be my last posting for a while, I've too much to do and not enough time left to train. Talking to Frank is a real waste of time, he can be a foot soldier for Futsan for the rest of his life for all I care. I am sure this will not be the end of the conversation.

Blah, blah, blah....

Cheers, my CLF brothers,

EJ

I agree that's why I put Frank on my ignore list. It's great, it's like somebody turned down the volume or something. You should give it a try EJ.

Thanks for you input and I think I can speak for the many and say that we enjoy having you here......so don't run off for too long. ;)

FP

[hskwarrior]

yeah joseph you intellectual you.

i love intellectual Choy Lee Fut. it's so deadly.

[VStanmore]

Fu Pow,
Yeah its good idea to analyse the contents of the forms.

But not all forms are the same. Interestingly, karate has a san chin form which is more like a set drill with breathing training, so its training may already act like a good drill and conditioning as well as qigong exercise.

EJ,

I like your comments about neigong and wooden dummy training.

I like this article about the clf wooden dummies :http://www.tai-chi-centre.com/woodendummies.htm

Here is a quote: "Chan Heung put considerable emphasis on power training, which is essential in jong techniques because one must have a strong and solid stance and tough limbs. It is not an easy task to send a heavy sandbag flying or to smash a solid piece of timber with a heavy weight attached swing from end-to-end like a yo-yo.

Chan Heung’s son, Chan Koon-Pak, also made jong techniques one of his specialities and received full instructions from his father. While teaching in Guangzhou, Koon-Pak was approached by Choy Kwai-Yuan and his two sons to teach them the wooden dummy techniques. They had the space required for installing the various jongs in their home. Chan Koon Pak accepted their request and gave them the specifications to construct the jongs."

I highlighted the comment about koon pak learning from his father, which should REFUTE the claim by some that chan source says koon pak did not learn from his father.

I understand what you mean about real waste of time talking to some, especially when they don't get to the point about the relevant matter and just rambles on and on, or make useless comments. Maybe some might wonder where he got that idea from, and what chan records he had access to, or whether he just made it up.
Does it remind us of Homer simpson's "we don' need a thinker, we need a doer, one that does without considering the con-se-quen-ces" ? :D

For an article on CLF internal training, here is an article: http://www.tai-chi-centre.com/lohan.htm

Clf is such a rich style with internal training and elaborate external wooden dummies. There is even a dummy which incorporates hard chi gung!

[hskwarrior]

you can miss me with your bs dude, you don't know me.

you are most likely a chan family supporter any way.

however, neither you nor fake as old man Joseph can tell me anything on my branch. When it comes to your info on Jeong Yim, you are all full of BS......

BS....that is.;)

[Fu-Pow]

Hey V-

Are you a CLF guy? Just curious. If not what style do you study?

If there are certain people annoying you on this forum I suggest that you make use of the ignore feature. Its in the user control panel, labeled user CP. It really does make a world of difference....;) It's like a whole new forum!!!

[VStanmore]

Hey V-

Are you a CLF guy? Just curious. If not what style do you study?

If there are certain people annoying you on this forum I suggest that you make use of the ignore feature. Its in the user control panel, labeled user CP. It really does make a world of difference....;) It's like a whole new forum!!!

Hey Fu Pow,
Yeah I do clf but also Hung Gar.

Thanks for the hint about ignore list to put the annoying guy on!

I really like the idea of clf Neigong and wooden dummies, and a multitude of Bagua forms.

I wonder if EJ and others would like to share what are their favourite bagua forms and why, and what are their favourite wooden dummy techniques. For example, the bagua sum is said to be "the heart of the bagua forms", but does anyone know what this "heart" is or signifies? Each of the 8 bagua forms, if I'm not mistaken, are suppose to 'represent' each of the 8 different trigrams of the bagua, but which to what form?

Some very interesting stuff, and I think it would be wise to dig for the treasures than try to re-invent the wheel. At least saves time, and gives us the foundation of a predecessors to build upon-like standing on the shoulders of giants!

I think better than (some?) making things up when they don't know!:D

[gregdread]

I'm a bit curious about CLF having 8 form Baqua. I thought Baqua was a Taosit form. And, doesnt' Fut stand for "Buddah"?

[VStanmore]

I'm a bit curious about CLF having 8 form Baqua. I thought Baqua was a Taosit form. And, doesnt' Fut stand for "Buddah"?

Greg,

You ask a very good question. From what I understand, where Chan Heung stayed to learn from his shaolin teacher Choy Fook, located on Mt Law fou, there were some surrounding taoist temples and this may have gave both Choy Fook and Chan Heung some "taoist-like" philosophical influences. And anyway, the old chinese philosophical concepts are quite commonplace in the culture if I'm not mistaken.
You know the philosophical concepts of wu chi giving birth to taichi and tai chi giving birth to leung yi (yin and yang) which gives birth to see jeurng and then to bagua. And the "five elements" theory. Hung Gar, which is very shaolin based, also has a "five element" section in the sup ying kuen.

I think you will find that CLF is a very complete kung fu system, with both external and internal practices, and both taoist-like and shaolin-based philosophical influences.
For example, the internal clf has training reminiscent of the shaolin yi jin jing (tendon changing exercise) as well as breathing exercises. But then the internal clf also has internal forms which seem to bear taoist-like philosophical names such as tai chi and wu chi (which is in fact a very advanced internal and fighting fist form). The animal forms and techniques are very shaolin-based, as you would also expect of the wooden dummies. There is even a wooden dummy incorporating hard chi gung, and a copper man dummy teaching accupressure point attacks. The bagua forms would seem to be based on taoist-like philosophy, where there are 8 trigrams of the bagua and so (if I'm not mistaken) there are 8 bagua forms, one for each trigram, and one more that is "the heart of the bagua forms" giving a total of 9.
I have noted mention of iron palm and iron body training in clf, and there is supposedly/apparently even a copperman dit da formula associated with iron training. One of 4 famous students of chan yiu chi, Ha bic chi was supposedly known for his claws and golden bell.

Here you will find some info on clf forms etc. :http://www.clfsd.com/articles.html#system

As you will see, the system is very complete and sophisticated, and there are some very detailed specifics to the forms etc if you know them.

Of course there may be some who don't know and might make things up and ramble on and on!:D

[gregdread]

Thanks for the info VStanmore. I think it helps to be open-minded to the fact that various styles of Chinese martial arts all have some form internal/external exercises. While I've always read that the three internal styles were Tai Chai, Baqua and Xing Xi (Hsing I), are daoist based and created by generals and daoist monks, while the external styles (CLF, Wing Chun, Hung Gar, White Crane, Mantis) tended to be created from Shaolin monks (with internal exercises like tendon and bone-marrow development being taught by Bodhidharma or Damo).

Truth be known, I'm a student of a Hung Sing CLF teacher. That said, I don't want to get into a debate about lineage history, since I have little education on it, with most coming from this forum. Like all information I'm fortunate to obtain, I'll take whatever is offered and add it to the "also there is" area when passing on that information to others. The latest "back and forth" on the subject of the Green Grass Monk, and the creators of Hung Sing and Chan CLF, is a subject I'm enjoying learning about from both sides of the debate. It sort like a martial arts version of the Da Vinci Code?

All kinding aside, knowing one's history and honoring the ones who original develop the forms we learn is important, be that a Hung Sing or Chan CLF practitioner. Whose history is more accurate may always be debatable, but that does not mean the debate should not be respectable. Thanks for CLF historical education to all who contributed. :)

[hskwarrior]

it's really kind of funny that the chan people hijacked this thread to attack me, and the conversation about the green grass monk has stopped.

but guess what, the Chan Family does not have a green grass monk and Jeong Yim does. Jeong Yim taught Green Grass Monk's In and Out bagua. CHan Heung never got to learn that one. (isn't this how to start a bashing CHan People?)

i mean to say one school doesn't have what another teaches and to assume that they are any less for it needs an ass whoopin.

[hskwarrior]

You people are so blinded by the Chan Family CLF that you don't even see the obvious.

From the get go, meaning long ago, the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon always preached about the green grass monk. We are the only ones to come up with as much info on him that we have.

The only thing the Chan Family has said that Choy Fook was Monk Ching Cho. However, any info on the Green Grass Monk stops there when it comes to Old Greenie. It should make you wonder why they don't have more info recorded on him since he was Chan Heung's teacher. right? i mean he tells alot about Choy Fook, but where are the descriptions (including the burned head) of the Green Grass Monk?

From the Chan Family there is NONE. that's why. Green Grass Monk was one of Jeong Yim's teachers, had nothing to do with CHan Heung not one bit.

For any CHan Family members out there, when it comes to the green grass monk, if you claim him in your lineage then you are stealing from Jeong Yim.

Chan Learned from CHan Yuan Wu, Choy Fook, and Lee Yau Sa. there is no mention of the green grass monk.

I want to know why the Chan family wants to include Jeong Yim's teacher in THEIR own lineage?

[dragon323]

Hskwarriors say:

"Because Lau Bun learned through his sifu (yuen Hai) the most early beginnings of Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut. You see, Yuan Hai was a long time student of Jeong Yim, who taught the In and out Bagua Kuen.

So you can say Lau Bun has some pretty old Choy Lee Fut.

we teach Sup Gee Kau da Kuen. Ping Kuen was never a set we practiced. we have a cheung kuen from Lau Bun, but the Fut San Cheung Kuen is much different. Lau Bun's Cheung Kuen is like Fut San's Che Kuen, only 3 times longer."

Thanks for your answer.

I like asking oneself more:

1 - How many years had studied Yuen Hai with Jeong Yim, and in than dates?

2 - How many years had studied Lau Bun with Yuen Hai, and in than dates?

3 - Which are the Lau Bun´s hand forms that you teach?

[hskwarrior]

dragon323,

you can email me and i will answer your questions since your question is only for me, i think it is better that way.

I look forward to your email.

[VStanmore]

Hi Frank,

"if Jeong Yim learned all of Chan Heung's 8 Bagua Sets, then how do you explain that not one of them are taught in the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon?"

May be Jeong Yim has not learned the Bagua sets, or may be he didn't have the time to teach them in Futsan. Why don't you ask the Futsan people?

The theories of Yin/Yang, Bagua and Wuxing are the foundations of Chinese philosophy, so it is not surprising that CLF would have them built into the system.

As to who made them all up over time, it is hard to be sure, but Chan Yiu-Chi was definitely the first in the family systematically written them down based on knowledge passed down by his grandfather Chan Heung and his father Koon Pak. Don't forget others may also have kept records they learned from their teachers before Yiu-Chi's time.

Isn't it amazing that Chen Yong-Fa actually learned from his grandfather, the same Chan Yiu-Chi and he is still alive and teaching? What other CMA can you find that nowadays? I sat in one of Barry Hale's class in SF with Ng Fu Heng, they are dedicated and and knowledgeable people and you should check them out before you keep bashing the Chan Family.

EJ

Hi EJ,

I suppose hung sing kuen doesn't have the Choy Lee Fut animal forms too?

So no jongs, internal CLF or bagua forms?

But why should we expect them to have these if they don't do CLF, but do Hung sing kuen from fut gar jing jung.

"if know the most possible method was called Fut Ga Jing Jong"

:D :D

[hskwarrior]

actually,

My branch teaches and practices an Internal form we call Um Ying Kuen.

It is usually taught as an internal form but i like doing it fast.

Jong's In my branch we have Jong sets for almost every hand set. We teach those to the ones we know will stick around and not get lost after learning a few forms.

Bagua, i don't need bagua.

And finally, If Jeong Yim didn't develop his own CLF you guys have yet to explain why the Fut San HSK doesn't teach any of the Chan Family sets.

[VStanmore]

A. That is because Futsan don't do CLF, they do Hung Sing Kuen from Fut Gar Jing Jung.

A. That is because you don't do CLF, you do Hung Sing Kuen from Fut Gar Jing Jung.

"If you don't have it, make it up??"

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41515

"if know the most possible method was called Fut Ga Jing Jong."

:D

[VStanmore]

Maybe the karate guys can MAKE UP a jong for each of their kata, and teach it to their black belts!:D

[VStanmore]

actually,

My branch teaches and practices an Internal form we call Um Ying Kuen.

It is usually taught as an internal form but i like doing it fast.

.

What are the principles and essence of internal Choy Lee Fut?

What makes a CLF form internal? Because you do it SLOW ??:D

CLF?? A. That is because you don't do CLF, you do Hung Sing Kuen from Fut Gar Jing Jung.

"if know the most possible method was called Fut Ga Jing Jong."

:D

[VStanmore]

If I am not mistaken, your "Um Ying Kuen" is the same five animal form that DFW teaches and he has written a book on it called Shaolin Five Animals. It is NOT a Choy Lee Fut form, but supposedly a "shaolin" form which Lau Bun learnt not from Yuen Hai, but Yuen Hai's wife.

So NO. You do not have an internal Choy Lee Fut form.
You don't have any Choy Lee Fut animal forms??

CLF??


A. That is because you don't do CLF, you do Hung Sing Kuen from Fut Gar Jing Jung.

"if know the most possible method was called Fut Ga Jing Jong."

:D

[hskwarrior]

Fool,

I never said to you that we practiced CLF internal. I said we have internal from Lau Bun.

Where did you see me say We teach CLF internal?

you don't.

To Tell you the truth, you can keep all your chan family CLF because i am completely happy with the CLF that Lau Bun has passed down, and that of the Fut San Hsk.

See, the one thing you cannot change is that Jeong Yim's name and CLF are synonymous. The one difference is that CHan Heung has His CHoy Lee Fut, and Jeong Yim has his.

It is people like you and Joseph that keep the fire going that if it don't come from Chan Heung it ain't CLF.

Well you are wrong. Completely. You guys are the ones more mad that we don't practice or preach your families version of CLF. We pass on the tradition of the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon, whether it's Fut Gar Jing Jong, Hung Sing Kuen or Hung SIng Choy Lee Fut, the fact of the matter is Jeong Yim's Hung SIng Kwoon is one of the most famous in southern China.

As I've said, while Chan Heung's Lineage is Choy Fook, Lee Yau San and CHan Yuan Wu. While Jeong Yim's Lineage is Lee Yau San, Chan Heung, and Monk Ching Cho.

Now, if Chan Heung sent Jeong Yim to Fut San, you guys still can't explain why he changed the name from whatever it was to use his own.

Possibly he changed the name of whatever the school was called that was ran by the old blind guy, to that of his hung sing kwoon because he was developing the gung fu he learned separately from that of Chan Heung. Maybe that is the reason why you don't find Chan Family CLF in the FUt San Hung SIng Kwoon.

There are no photo's of CHan Heung in any fut san HSK around the world, we don't teach Chan Heung's type of Choy Lee Fut, however, the pay more homage to the green grass monk more than anything.

Once again, the chan family practices Chan Family CLF, while in Fut San they Practice CLF that was passed down from Jeong Yim. I know you think it's fun trying to make a fool of me, but i know for sure you don't have the heart to contact the fut san hung sing kwoon and speak to them with such arrogance.

See, I understand where joseph comes from. He fights for the honor of his chan family lineage. That's totally cool. I will do and have been the same for my branch. All you guys have done is spout off Chan Heung This Jeong Yim didn't do that or this, but you have failed to tell me exactly what it is that Chan Heung says that Jeong Yim did.

From the stand point of the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon it just looks like Chan Family members trying to stir up trouble. I mean, who gave the Chan Family the right to try and tell us about a disciple that didn't even stick around them that long?

I just hope by this stupid arse bickering shows the onlookers that the Chan Famiily will fight for their spotlight as long as they can. What they don't realize is that the Fut San HSK doesn't even care about what they have to say about our branch. Maybe I shouldn't care either. As I was saying, I hope that all this makes people realize "if you want to learn about Fut San Hung SIng Choy Lee Fut, then you should start their and research their history.

Don't rely on Chan Family information when it comes to Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon. I am personally starting to think that there was some bad blood between Chan Family and HSK because Jeong Yim changed the name of Chan Heung's students school, and made a name for himself.

Go to www.hongshengguan.com and start there.

I don't care about How joseph and this other guy are talking smack. it doesn't bother me because i know they are clueless to happenings at the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon. They are as clueless to my branch as i am to theirs. But since they want to control the history they want to tell US about OUR history. But at least i can admit my Ignorance of CHan Family CLF.

[VStanmore]

Fool,

I never said to you that we practiced CLF internal. I said we have internal from Lau Bun.

Where did you see me say We teach CLF internal?

you don't.


There are no photo's of CHan Heung in any fut san HSK around the world, we don't teach Chan Heung's type of Choy Lee Fut, however, the pay more homage to the green grass monk more than anything.
.
A. That is because Futsan don't do CLF, they do Hung Sing Kuen from Fut Gar Jing Jung.
"if know the most possible method was called Fut Ga Jing Jong."
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41515

:D

[VStanmore]

Possibly he changed the name of whatever the school was called that was ran by the old blind guy, to that of his hung sing kwoon because he was developing the gung fu he learned separately from that of Chan Heung. Maybe that is the reason why you don't find Chan Family CLF in the FUt San Hung SIng Kwoon.

.
Well even within the same branch or lineage, content can easily change and get lost with time and successive generations, as people might learn or remember things wrong, change and/or adapt, or simply forget and make-up missing or forgotten things. There is also possibility that as time goes by, people make up things to fulfill a need not satisfied already by what they have, or to take the place of something they did not inherit or learn from the previous generation.

That is why it is so important to DOCUMENT AND RECORD the contents and information through manuscripts and kuen Po as did Chan Heung and his family. So even if successive generations adapt what they learn, the more original material of the previous generation is still accessible through manuscripts/kuen po for the future generations, keeping the system relatively intact.

Not surprising if futsan did not have (??) kuen pos and written documentation, the further removed they are from Chan Heung's family, the less their material will resemble the Choy Lee Fut as passed on by its founder, Chan Heung.

You can see this even with forms of the same name. For example, sup ji kau da and ping kuen are names of forms found in Chan Heun's Choy Lee Fut, as is Tid jin cheung kuen. But ping kuen of futsan may be different to that of Chan Heung's family....why? Well not hard to understand the possibility given the possible reasons as outlined above, especially if they did not keep kuen pos, and as time goes on and the further they are removed from the family of Chan Heung, the chances are they will look even more different and unrecognisable except in name??

By the way, sup ji kau da, ping kuen, tid jin cheung kuen are only primary level forms. There are more advanced secondary level forms such as the bagua sum, and there are advanced tertiary level forms such as the choy lee fut animal forms.

So you don't have any choy lee fut animal forms??

Or,

A. That is because Futsan don't do CLF, they do Hung Sing Kuen from Fut Gar Jing Jung.
"if know the most possible method was called Fut Ga Jing Jong."
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=41515

:D

[extrajoseph]

Don't rely on Chan Family information when it comes to Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon. I am personally starting to think that there was some bad blood between Chan Family and HSK because Jeong Yim changed the name of Chan Heung's students school, and made a name for himself.

Go to www.hongshengguan.com and start there.

I don't care about How joseph and this other guy are talking smack. it doesn't bother me because i know they are clueless to happenings at the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon. They are as clueless to my branch as i am to theirs. But since they want to control the history they want to tell US about OUR history. But at least i can admit my Ignorance of CHan Family CLF.

Hi Frank,

In your fundamentalist-like enthusiasm to promote the history of Futsan Hung Sing, you have turned Jeong Yim, a great fighter of CLF, into a Judas.

You have now portrayed him as a traitor who has the disrespect and the contempt to wrestle his teacher for the title as the founder of CLF and forgo the name of CLF.

You have outcaste him 5 generations after his death all for the sake of promoting Futsan as a tourist destination.

Your first lineage is through Lau Bun, did you ever hear him say Hung Sing is not CLF? Did you ever hear him say Hung Sing is called Fut Gar Jingh Jung and not called Hung Sing CLF? Did you ever hear him denied Chan Heung was not the founder of CLF?

Is this how you see yourself as an American Hung Sing warrior? If you want to be a warrior, find a just cause first!

You can always tell us how great Futsan Hung Sing was and is, without turning Jeong Yim into a Judas. He has done too much for CLF to have you crashed his balls like this!

You are not only ignorant of the Chan Family CLF but you are also ignorant of Chinese culture and have no respect for CMA protocols.

EJ

[hskwarrior]

yeah yeah yeah.......that's what YOU say.

I know for a fact that there even some from the Fut San HSK that check in on this forum, and they are well aware of what I'm doing. Still, not once was i Censored by either the Fut San HSK, Chan Family, or even my own sifu.

So, i'm not worried about the negative things you feel towards us trying to tell our own history which takes away from all the attention you hope the Chan Family to get.

Still, if i was doing any harm to the Fut San HSK in my efforts to promote our lineage, all they had to do is either call my sifu, or talk to him when he calls them, or even email me directly. I get regular emails from fut san and nothing about me making a mockery of CLF or Hung Sing.

It's all your own insecurities Joseph. I got it when I realized you will fight for your "great great grand father". You will say what you need, or direct all the attention to where you think it needs to be. That's fine. All i'm doing is the same as you with your lineage. You trying to stop us from doing so must make others wonder why you don't want our history to come to the surface.

Jeong Yim made name for himself based off of what he did. He was a known revolutionary, and his disciples followed in the same footsteps. The only thing we say is that Jeong Yim learned from CHan Heung, went back to share with his former sifu what he learned from his latter sifu.

While Chan Heung was promoting his own branch, Jeong Yim was doing the same for his. It is obvious that the two went their own directions. The reasons behind it we may never truly know. However, based on some of the things i've read, it seems like the Chan Family is upset that Jeong Yim opened his own school, developed his own gung fu, and made an incredible name for himself and Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon. In Southern China Jeong Yim's history cannot be erased. It is hand in hand with Southern Gung Fu History.

Regardless of whatever Jeong Yim was, Fut Gar Jing Jong, Hung Sing Kuen or even Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut.....his legacy is well known. And, obviously I am proud to be from his lineage.

So again, you can say that i am making the Hung SIng Kwoon look bad. But until they contact me and tell me so, it's just your personal opinion.

And I'm not too interested in your personal opinions.

[hskwarrior]

Well, I'm not chinese. don't try to be chinese.

I would look real silly trying to pass myself on as being Chinese, abiding by chinese culture when I'm not Chinese. (obviously).

I don't know of any sifu that teaches their caucasian students to "BE chinese. They most likely will never teach you proper CHinese Cultural ettiquettes.

I know about chinese culture, but I also know how people try to abuse Chinese Culture to uphold their position in order not to lose it.

See, I've been told by more Chinese than you realize that I'm more chinese than most. Although, I don't choose to eat with Chop Sticks when eating a bowl of cereal, or even start chasing down chinese girls because "i'm a gung fu guy now."

I don't try to learn Chinese so that I may tell other white people about chinese. I've absorbed what i needed to to survive within the chinese community that i am involved in here in Frisco. Joseph, I know more about Chinese culture than you know about me, but because i am not Chinese, i don't live like a chinese.

the proof is evident. I'm still talking with as many HSK and Buk Sing masters and elders that have a way to get in touch with me, and i'm still talking.

Not every one thinks about me the way YOU do.

[extrajoseph]

Frank,

If you are sensitive by any stretch of imagination, you would not try make out Jeong Yim to be a Fan Guek Jag (a traitor) to CLF, that hurts a lot of people in the CLF family when we know he gave his life to the art.

By doing this you are not very Chinese, meaning you have no sense of appreciation of what the Chinese values are.

Kwan Kung was highly admired by the Chinese because he symbolized friendship, loalty and trust which Jeong Yim and Chan Heung gave to each other.

You came along 5 generations later and took them apart. Now to me, that is not being Chinese and I was not referring to you being a Chinaman by race.

Just one look at you and we know you are not one of us.

No one talked to me like the way you do either!

:mad:

[extrajoseph]

While Chan Heung was promoting his own branch, Jeong Yim was doing the same for his. It is obvious that the two went their own directions. The reasons behind it we may never truly know. However, based on some of the things i've read, it seems like the Chan Family is upset that Jeong Yim opened his own school, developed his own gung fu, and made an incredible name for himself and Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon. In Southern China Jeong Yim's history cannot be erased. It is hand in hand with Southern Gung Fu History.

Hi Frank,

Can you give us some evidence how Jeong Yim promoted his own Fut Gar Jing Jung while Chan Heung was doing the same for CLF. Please don't give us so and so said what, give us some historical facts.

I think you have got it all wrong, no one is upset by Jeong Yim, least of the Chan Family because what is good for Hung Sing CLF is good for CLF and the same applied to Bak Sing, they are more upset by the way you have portraited Jeong Yim to be a Fan Guek Jag, all just to promote Futsan as a tourist destination. No one, except you, is trying to erase him.

Everyone does CLF differently, but like CLFNole says, we are "Yut Gar" (One Family)!

EJ

[CLFNole]

One thing I really don't agree with is that there was animosity between CLF players long ago. Sure some people might not have got along but I remember hearing about Wu Wun Cheuk (not sure of the spelling) who first started his training under Chan Ngau Sing. His parents moved and Chan Ngau Sing recommend he study with Chan Yiu Chi, who was apparently close to the area he moved.

If such animosity exited between branches why would Chan Ngau Sing (student of Jeong Yim) recommend his student follow Chan Yiu Chi of the Chan Family?

Answer: They got along back then. So lets learn from their example and get along now. What is all this crap doing? Nothing but making us look like idiots. If you are from the Chan Family lineage you are a student of CLF, if you are from the Jeong Yim lineage you are student of CLF, if you are from the Tam Sam lineage you are a student of CLF and if you are of a mixed lineage (like myself) you are a student of CLF.

Who cares who has what form and who doesn't. The seeds are the same and CLF is CLF. Practice what you know, be humble and open-minded and you can do great things. I think the early generations would be disgusted by the things going on today and all the hate people put out there.

This is not directed at anyone just something we all should think about.

Peace.

[extrajoseph]

...and there is no animosity between people from Futsan and from King Mui as Frank made them out to be, it is just tourist business.

[Fu-Pow]

Amen. We should all be training and promoting CLF from whatever branch. Right now the battle is not between Hung Sing and Chan Family. At least it shouldn't be.

It's between Kung Fu and so called MMA. Kung Fu is taking a beating....literallly and figuratively...we all need to be training hard and sparring a lot and getting out and competing against other martial arts..... instead of bashing each other on the forum.

Who the **** cares who taught who to what? Or who has what forms? I like history and comparison as much as anybody but it shouldn't divide people. It should bring us together and see what's missing and what we can learn from each of the branches.

Chan Family has more forms, internal stuff, dummies. Hung sing could use some of this stuff.

Hung Sing side brings a somewhat simpler approach in terms of forms but some great combinations. Some of the best short hand combinations I know are from Hung Sing and Bak Sing. (Yes, that's right Bak Sing, my Sifu picks up stuff that works...no matter the source. )

The best martial artists are the ones that are willing to use what works for them and discard what doesn't. Don't get stuck in this lineage or that lineage or this form or that form.

If you want to bring CLF more glory then make it work for you and then get out and demonstrate its effectiveness.

[extrajoseph]

Na Mo Au Li Tou Fut!

[hskwarrior]

can you EJ give me proof that he wasn't?

[hskwarrior]

no, you are making Jeong Yim out to be a traitor. Not me. Those words came out of your mouth and your mouth alone.

Jeong Yim's branch Like it or not has amassed much fame for what Jeong Yim did, and also that of his disciples. I have shown you the evidence of that based on what has been written about the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon.

You only go by the grandsons writings, and in all your so called 50 years of CLF, you have yet to see any writings from Chan Heung. I guess it was destroyed in the revolutions, huh?

I guess the same couldn't have happened to Jeong Yim either, huh? because it happened to chan heung first, right?

You don't realize that the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon in China's gung fu history is famous. Not for what Chan Heung did, but for what Jeong Yim did.

joseph, you act like Chan Yiu Chi's histortical facts are better than anything the Fut San branch has. You think Chan Family reigns over Fut San HSK. but, you and i both know it doesn't.

You can tell me what Jeong Yim didn't do all day long. But you have not, could not, and will not ever prove it wrong.

You haven't proven me wrong about Ching Cho, you haven't proven me wrong about Jeong Yim. all you can do is say "no, he didn't do that" Or "where's your proof?"

If you need me to show your proof, then joseph somewhere in your defense is a huge crack. Because I don't feel the need to prove our history to you. However, you must not be completely confident with your knowledge of the Chan Family history for me, to have you wanting me to provide you with proof. if you were so confident you would just ignore me and let me talk. but no, you want me to provide you with proof because you are not all that sure yourself.

I will say this to you, and every single person that is on this forum, don't kill the messenger. If you have a problem with what information comes from the fut san Hung Sing Kwoon then do something about it. If you won't, then shut your mouth. You should know by now, there is not one person on this forum that can convinve me otherwise that my lineage is wrong.

for years joseph you have asked me to provide proof. Why haven't you provided proof? No one here has provided ANY proof.

Proof, he asks me. I wonder why he needs proof? If he was so right, then why would he need proof? Hell, I don't Know.

[hskwarrior]

EJ,

Hum Lien Kai Dai.:D

[hskwarrior]

the wooden dummy isn't something so intriquette that NO ONE could come up with and equally effective one as the one CHan Koon Pak put together. I mean anyone could put a dummy set together. So what they may have more dummy forms. How many dummy forms do you want to practice?

when do you have to time to put your stuff to use when you are practicing some many forms?

Internal, who really cares about internal CLF. Hell, I got internal in my branch, so i'm not worrying about it.

and Joseph, how do you figure there is no animosty? This is what i read from sources that focus on the King Mui lineage under Chan Heung. It seems that it must have been worth mentioning for them to say Jeong Yim changed "our" schools name and used his own. I see that as bitter.

As i've said before joseph, if it weren't for people like you who try and steal the focus on anything that's not Chan Heung, then maybe the world would want to know more about Jeong Yim.

Instead, you are here battling ME on what the FUT SAN Branch has provided. You point your finger at me as if I am the one who created this whole mess. In this case as well in many others my CLF brother EJ, you are wrong again.

I am a Hung SIng Kwoon disciple from the Fut San Lineage. You are of Chan Heungs. You tell your story, I will tell mine. You don't think the people can see that you are the one attacking me about the history of Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon.

You force me to attack you back about your swiss cheese chan family CLF history. If you would leave well enough alone and let us tell the legacy of Jeong Yim then maybe we as CLF brothers can live in peace.

In the big picture of things, like it or not,.......the fut san HSK dosen't practice or teach Chan Family Clf. We practice CLF that was passed down and developed by Jeong Yim. IF you can't explain why our branch doesn't have your stuff, then leave it alone.

Chan Family I'm not for sure doesn't practice Jeong Yim's CLF, although there was something i heard. However, it is a well known fact that CHAN family CLF was passed down in its true sense only to Chan Heung's bloodline. No one else would have gotten what the bloodline was teaching due to "NO Bloodline."

Again, Buk Sing although Hung SIng more than anything, doesn't teach Chan Family CLF either. So here you are, with two branches of CLF that don't teach or practice the CLF of one specfic branch. But it's all CLF?!?!? Why is it that two branches don't teach what the chan family branch does?

And he says there was NO CHAN CLAN. HA!!!!!

[hskwarrior]

Joseph started this. I was trying to be cool. But Joseph had to start with all this mess on how he thinks he can tell me the history of my branch when he isn't from my branch.

This can go both ways, but it is because of people like joseph that there continues this my branch your branch this branch.

IF we are all CLF then we should all get along. but it won't happen because jospeh hates it when anyone tells of the fut san hsk history because it contradicts what he was taught by his great great grandfather as he puts it.

Still, CLF would be better off if the WHOLE history just disappeared off the face of the planet. because it is a shame that do to historical reasons people have to disrespect each other.

But maybe thats just the name of the game in gung fu. and if so, i wish i would have quit long ago.

[CLFNole]

Frank you are just as guilty as XJ when you get down to it. Both of you have biased opinions of history as one would expect. You are obviously biased to what the Hung Sing Kwoon promotes as history and XJ to what the Chan lineage has promoted. I have my own belief I just choose not to push it on everyone.

The difference is you tend to get to confrontational when someone disagrees with your opinion. You have to remember there will always be people who don't agree with you and you just have to accept it.

I think we would all be better off if we discussed CLF instead of being public relations firms for various histories. History is nice to read about but it won't help your training.

All lineages have a wealth of information that could be shared amongst each other but that will never happen at the rate we are going.

[hskwarrior]

thats where you and i agree clf nole.

but yes i am just as guilty.

see, right now I'm trying to give reasons but keep hitting that back button. As you know I am sometimes too passionate about my history. Normally, i don't even worry about lineage and actually love all CLF. it's just when Joseph and others start bragging about Chan Family does this and that and secretly trying to undermine the other branches by doing so.

What is taught in chan heung's branch is for their branch. the same goes for us. the same goes for buk sing. but you don't hear us bragging about this form or that form or what the others don't have. We only wanted our history to be included. Not excluded by those who have not from my branch.

I just hope you can see how he tries to drag the attention always to the Chan Heung side. If anyone says anything, joseph will be there to say ....oops, chan Heung has done this already."

THe fut san HSK deserves just as much attention as joseph is trying to steal from us.

on that note, i am done with this whole history bullsh1t. I will continue to try and promote all the branches of CLF. Just because i am a proud Hung SIng guy, doesn't mean i don't find validity in the other branches. I love watching and seeing how others execute their CLF as opposed to our way. I love finding the similarities, as well as the differences.

In the future i hope all history will be accepted so that we can go on with the promotion of all our schools in the CLF family. this is something i truly believe.

And, I will say it first here, one day i hope to be teaching CLF to my students that consist of all 3 branches material. it is what i am referring to as modern day CLF.

The past is the past, and as modern day CLF practitioners we are responsible for taking CLF into the new millenium. The fighting back then was a lot different than ours, which means we have to adapt our CLF for todays purposes. Whether that means entering more MMA type things, or more sanshou. Or just continue to develop our gung fu for self defense purposes.

We all have something to offer each other in regards to contributions in CLF. I just hope one day we can get together and become one great family without the evilness of history. Although it's my passion (history) by now i truly mean this when i say i wish it wasn't. this history stuff really is a mess.

be around.

hsk

[CLFNole]

Frank:

I think your beginning to see the light. From reading this stuff for awhile I think sometimes you come out and say some stuff in a strong manner, which ultimately brings others out that will challenge you on it. XJ definately knows how to push your buttons and I think he does it becuase he knows how you will react.

I think of things like this. Be thankful for what you know and be open to what you don't know. For example don't dismiss the Chan Family internal sets or the baat kwa sets because you don't know them or don't have them. It comes off as being jealous. The same can be said for a Chan Family member that doesn't have a hung sing set. No style is superior to the other it is the player that matters most. Personally I think CLF has way too many forms. I know my fair share and often when practicing with Sow Choy or my sifu we talk about really needing so many. On one hand it is nice becuase you can teach forms to others that fit their body structures but it is a lot for one person to retain.

[VStanmore]

Possibilities for why futsan forms different to Chan Heung's family's??

Took this from another post:

Well even within the same branch or lineage, content can easily change and get lost with time and successive generations, as people might learn or remember things wrong, change and/or adapt, or simply forget and make-up missing or forgotten things. There is also possibility that as time goes by, people make up things to fulfill a need not satisfied already by what they have, or to take the place of something they did not inherit or learn from the previous generation.

That is why it is so important to DOCUMENT AND RECORD the contents and information through manuscripts and kuen Po as did Chan Heung and his family. So even if successive generations adapt what they learn, the more original material of the previous generation is still accessible through manuscripts/kuen po for the future generations, keeping the system relatively intact.

Not surprising if futsan did not have (??) kuen pos and written documentation, the further removed they are from Chan Heung's family, the less their material will resemble the Choy Lee Fut as passed on by its founder, Chan Heung.

You can see this even with forms of the same name. For example, sup ji kau da and ping kuen are names of forms found in Chan Heun's Choy Lee Fut, as is Tid jin cheung kuen. But ping kuen of futsan may be different to that of Chan Heung's family....why? Well not hard to understand the possibility given the possible reasons as outlined above, especially if they did not keep kuen pos, and as time goes on and the further they are removed from the family of Chan Heung, the chances are they will look even more different and unrecognisable except in name??

By the way, sup ji kau da, ping kuen, tid jin cheung kuen are only primary level forms. There are more advanced secondary level forms such as the bagua sum, and there are advanced tertiary level forms such as the choy lee fut animal forms.

So you don't have any choy lee fut animal forms??

And before you go about MAKING THING UP LIKE JONGS, things to consider??

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41534

[hskwarrior]

clfnole,

i completely agree with you. I am always open minded, I jus won't budge when it comes to the history and sway to the other side.

as for the internal forms, i don't discount them, I'm just not interested in learning internal forms.

See, i what i think is if i started practicing chan family forms others will try and clown and call me a traitor. however, I do see a lot of Chan Family CLF that i like, and there are some things i wouldn't do because to me it doesn't make sense.

again, i will say this, i Love all choy lee fut because it is such a great system and i think we can all benefit from each other like you said. Just each person should absorb what works for them.

still, one day, we will all practice CLF as a whole. not this branch nor that branch. just one big family.

[VStanmore]

Internal, who really cares about internal CLF. Hell, I got internal in my branch, so i'm not worrying about it.



No. You do not have internal CLF. Your "um ying kuen" is not a Choy Lee Fut form. It was supposedly a "shaolin" form learnt by Lau bun from Yuen Hai's wife, not from Yuen Hai himself.

And before you go about talking about internal, what makes that form "internal"? Is it because you do it SLOW?? :D :D

Do you know??

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41429&page=7

[hskwarrior]

kenny you better stop it. i'll get you banned again.

[VStanmore]

No. You do not have internal CLF. Your "um ying kuen" is not a Choy Lee Fut form. It was supposedly a "shaolin" form learnt by Lau bun from Yuen Hai's wife, not from Yuen Hai himself.

And before you go about talking about internal, what makes that form "internal"? Is it because you do it SLOW?? :D :D

Do you know??

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41429&page=7

Frank,

So you have no answer for the questions?

So you don't know about internal??

"Better go get these guys banned, before they expose more of our lack of knowledge! How could we keep faking it and making things up if they keep exposing us!"??:D :D

[VStanmore]

Frank,

If you are sensitive by any stretch of imagination, you would not try make out Jeong Yim to be a Fan Guek Jag (a traitor) to CLF, that hurts a lot of people in the CLF family when we know he gave his life to the art.

By doing this you are not very Chinese, meaning you have no sense of appreciation of what the Chinese values are.

Kwan Kung was highly admired by the Chinese because he symbolized friendship, loalty and trust which Jeong Yim and Chan Heung gave to each other.

You came along 5 generations later and took them apart. Now to me, that is not being Chinese and I was not referring to you being a Chinaman by race.

Just one look at you and we know you are not one of us.

No one talked to me like the way you do either!

:mad:

Hi EJ,
Watch out! Expose more of his lack of knowledge and he might get you banned!??
:D

[extrajoseph]

Hi VT,

Frank may be able to change history but he has no power to ban anyone here. Whether he has knowledge or not it is up to others to decide.

Keep cool, bro.

EJ

[hskwarrior]

if this guy stanmore keeps showing himself like kenny poop,

yes i will get him banned. this guy is outrageously posting just like kenpoop.

yes i do have the power.

[VStanmore]

Hi VT,

Frank may be able to change history but he has no power to ban anyone here. Whether he has knowledge or not it is up to others to decide.

Keep cool, bro.

EJ

Hi EJ,
Frank has posted another post about getting someone banned.

His lack of knowledge is quite evident even if he gets those who exposes it banned!:D

Frank has been f-a-r-t-ing from his mouth.....Maybe he is so accustomed to it that he doesn't smell the stink of his own f-a-r-t when he opens his mouth!?? Is he stuck? Maybe he should try unplugging the other end, and his bad air will go out the correct path!?? :D :D

[extrajoseph]

Hi VT,

If I were you I wouldn't use too many **** words because they end in four and is considered bad luckk by the Chinese!

EJ

[VStanmore]

Hi EJ,

it was about Frank f-a-r-ting from his mouth!:D :D

[hskwarrior]

kenny (vstanmore)

If you don't cease your bullsh1t you are going to get banned again.

i'm warning you.

you really must be retarded to think we don't know its you.

I got your noi lim sau for you right here.

[VStanmore]

Did someone just f-a-r-t from his mouth?

Try unplugging the other end of the tunnel, and the bad air will go out the correct opening. Not the mouth.

:D

[hskwarrior]

keep it up kenny.;)

[chasincharpchui]

Frank,

If you are sensitive by any stretch of imagination, you would not try make out Jeong Yim to be a Fan Guek Jag (a traitor) to CLF, that hurts a lot of people in the CLF family when we know he gave his life to the art.

By doing this you are not very Chinese, meaning you have no sense of appreciation of what the Chinese values are.

Kwan Kung was highly admired by the Chinese because he symbolized friendship, loalty and trust which Jeong Yim and Chan Heung gave to each other.

You came along 5 generations later and took them apart. Now to me, that is not being Chinese and I was not referring to you being a Chinaman by race.

Just one look at you and we know you are not one of us.

No one talked to me like the way you do either!

:mad:


i hope ur clf is better than ur cantonese
coz ur cantonese sucks

i hope uve been reading an english version of clf history otherwise id want to get a second opinion on ur translations

[iron_silk]

i hope ur clf is better than ur cantonese
coz ur cantonese sucks

i hope uve been reading an english version of clf history otherwise id want to get a second opinion on ur translations


That is very rude.

You can feel that someone's phonetics is no good and desire a different source for your info. That is your choice.

But when you post what you did describing is as "suck" and "i hope your clf better" has got no purpose but to insult another person who hasn't insulted you.

If you got problems understanding than ask again or perhaps give pointers for improvement. If you dislike this source of info then GO elsewhere.

[Fu-Pow]

Ironsilk-

Just put that guy on your ignore list. He has nothing useful to contribute.

FP

[Buck Sing Gwoon]

Fu Pow...... why dont you put all the people you have no heart to face on ignore lists... or maybe your better off saying, lets put the Buck Sing Choy Lay Fut guys on ignore lists?! Cause they speak up!

You showed your true colours to the world!

Your quote of "Respect gets respect" should be changed as you have none for yourself! Remember :rolleyes: ;) :D

You put me and others on your childish ignore list.... Wow, what an adult and manly thing to do!

Trying to encourage others to put us on their ignore lists is Your Own Sneaky, Childish, Cowardly way of trying to eliminate us from speaking up on this forum.......

I'm an adult and unlike YOU, I will listen to what you or others have to say and if need be, ill respond accordingly.

Buck Sing Gwoon

[hskwarrior]

and fu pow does right?

he runs away in the face of danger. now we know when it comes to him if it's "fight or flight"

one minute he's all about forms how many and such. now he's changed his tune.

i don't get this guy.

[chasincharpchui]

That is very rude.

You can feel that someone's phonetics is no good and desire a different source for your info. That is your choice.



phonetics haha

he cant even spell it right, i dont really care bout his phonectics, being a gwai lo n all its normal for his phonectics to be wrong


That is very rude.

But when you post what you did describing is as "suck" and "i hope your clf better" has got no purpose but to insult another person who hasn't insulted you.



yeh yeh its ok for EJ and his boys to say crap bout hung sing choy lay fut and call it hung sing kuen and discredit jeung yim lineage.

but its so wrong for me to say i hope ur clf is better

afterall according to his followers ping kune sup ji kow da are BASIC chan family choy lay fut forms. And there are much more ADVANCE choy lay fut forms that Jeung Yim didnt learn, EJ must have learnt them all by now so he's better at CLF than any HUNG SING CLF or BUK SING CLF guy

btw his cantonese does suck


That is very rude.

If you got problems understanding than ask again or perhaps give pointers for improvement. If you dislike this source of info then GO elsewhere.

pointers for improvement? well ur clf is so good already coz u got to learn the advance forms that jeung yim didnt get to learn i suggest u spend more time learning ur chinese. distinguishing cantonese and mandarin


Ironsilk-

Just put that guy on your ignore list. He has nothing useful to contribute.

FP

still a coward eric

[hskwarrior]

chasincharpchui,

The Chan Family may have a Ping Kuen, but so does Fut San HSK. Both Ping Kuen's are different. Additionally, Ping Kuen came from Chan Ngau Sing, at least ours does. Ping Kuen, Cheung Kuen, and Kou Da Kuen are Fut San Sets.

Aside from the basic techniques, Chan Family sets are different than Fut San sets.

Chan Family usually start their sets right where they are, while ALL Hung SING and BUK SING sets start with the "L" pattern going to the left. IF the chan family have that in any of their forms, then it's really possible they got it from us.

Fut San's Cheung Kuen is a really long set. I thought I finished it but came to learn I only learned half the set.

But, I understand now where joseph is coming from. I am just as passionate as EJ when it comes to MY lineage. However, it's when they try to take all the focus away from whatever is going on and insert Chan Heung's name into everything.

well, not everyone wants to hear about chan heung. some people actually want to learn about the disciples of the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon. It is clear that somewhere in the early days there was a split between Chan Heung and Jeong Yim. It's quite obvious that both were very popular during their hayday, but to push aside what Jeong Yim did, and who he was, or even fill the public with falsehoods in order to keep the public's attention is wrong.

that's why i've been promoting all three branches as being CLF. You won't find Buk Sing CLF in Chan Family branches. You won't find Chan Heung's gung fu in Fut San branches which include Buk Sing of course. Still, even buk sing have CLF techniques not taught in the other branches and are exclusive to their branch.

Chan Heung didn't create the buk sing deadly snake strikes. But it's still CLF.

When it comes to the In and Out Bagua that Ching Cho passed down to Jeong Yim, i believe the In and Out part is Internal and External bagua.

Also, the hammers that Chan Ngau Sing used to defeat some one named Ying Sha and a hundred of his followers was not taught by Chan Heung. The Hung SIng Kwoon developed their own method to using their gung fu.

[Eddie]

erm, I thought Mr Xtra Joseph IS Chinese, and whats more, hes even closer the the Chan family than most of us realise. Or does one become a 'gwai lo' when he moves to the west?
:rolleyes: :cool:

[chasincharpchui]

erm, I thought Mr Xtra Joseph IS Chinese, and whats more, hes even closer the the Chan family than most of us realise. Or does one become a 'gwai lo' when he moves to the west?
:rolleyes: :cool:

EJ a chinese? thats really surprising


THe opposite of "hoi" (open) is sou (close), so it is "sou ma" to close the horse.

Cheers guys, keep training.

:)

this tells me his cantonese is really really bad

if he is chinese by DNA, he's cantonese is still really really bad

[CFT]

EJ a chinese? thats really surprising

THe opposite of "hoi" (open) is sou (close), so it is "sou ma" to close the horse.

Cheers guys, keep training.this tells me his cantonese is really really bad

if he is chinese by DNA, he's cantonese is still really really badNo This just tells us that his Cantonese romanisation is not too good (though it's perfectly fine in this case) - which is true of 99% of Hong Kong and Guangdong Chinese people. There is simply isn't much, if any, formal schooling in Cantonese romanisation like there is with Mandarin pinyin.



Frank,

If you are sensitive by any stretch of imagination, you would not try make out Jeong Yim to be a Fan Guek Jag (a traitor) to CLF, that hurts a lot of people in the CLF family when we know he gave his life to the art.EJ, do you mean "faan gwut jai" (youth that reverses the bone)?

[chasincharpchui]

No This just tells us that his Cantonese romanisation is not too good (though it's perfectly fine in this case) - which is true of 99% of Hong Kong and Guangdong Chinese people. There is simply isn't much, if any, formal schooling in Cantonese romanisation like there is with Mandarin pinyin.


THe opposite of "hoi" (open) is sou (close), so it is "sou ma" to close the horse.

Cheers guys, keep training.

:)




romanisation has nothing to do with this, since wen did sou literally mean close?






EJ, do you mean "faan gwut jai" (youth that reverses the bone)?



If you are sensitive by any stretch of imagination, you would not try make out Jeong Yim to be a Fan Guek Jag (a traitor) to CLF, that hurts a lot of people in the CLF family when we know he gave his life to the art.


:mad:



fair enough cantonese doesnt have formal romanisation like mandarin

but u gotta admit EJ's FAN GUEK JAG is way off faan gwut jai

so not only is his cantonese bad, his cantonese romanisation is even worse

which then i say

hope his choy lay fut is ALOT better

[CFT]

romanisation has nothing to do with this, since wen did sou literally mean close?I think I posted a link further back up the thread to the correct character. "Sou" as in to retrieve or take back. So "hoi maa" is to open the horse and "sou maa" to to retrieve or close the horse. I'm pretty sure it's standard terminology.


fair enough cantonese doesnt have formal romanisation like mandarin

but u gotta admit EJ's FAN GUEK JAG is way off faan gwut jai

so not only is his cantonese bad, his cantonese romanisation is even worse which then i say hope his choy lay fut is ALOT betterAhhh! But don't forget not everyone speaks Cantonese with standard Hong Kong or even Guangzhou pronunciation. I believe that alot of the Chinese immigrants to the USA were from Toisan so this may skew the pronunciation.

I don't know what Chinese dialect EJ uses. But, for example, I think Toisanese use "doi" instead of "jai" (as in the above example). So I am only thrown by the "jag" character, but I still recognise the whole phrase.

[hskwarrior]

many forms by the same name but are different in content are very very common in CLF. Not ALL clf came from CHan Heung.

No one said that Jeong Yim taught CHan Heung the In and Out bagua. what has been said many times is that Jeong Yim returned to Chan Heung and shared what he learned while they picked and chose various techniques to add into the system.

The problem here is can you match the ping kuen from both families? No you couldn't. The same ping kuen that the LKH lineage practices may be different that that of King Mui. The Kong Chow branch also has forms similar to that of Chan Heung in name but i'm sure it's different than what was taught by chan heung.

Now i never said Jeong Yim was the founder of CLF. Just the founder of his own branch that taught their own CLF. Jeong Yim's teachers were Lee Yau San, CHan Heung and Monk Ching Cho. other than the In and Out bagua, i've never heard what other things Ching Cho taught Jeong Yim, but the 3 sets i've mentioned are a product of the In an Out bagua.

[hskwarrior]

misty,

How to explain? Jeong Yim has his Cheung Kuen. I have seen the Iron Arrow Cheung Kuen and it looks more along the lines of Che Kuen with a whole lot of techqniques.

However, the Cheung Kuen as passed down by the Fut San HSK is totally different.

Both Chan Heung and the Lau Bun have 5 animals set. but they are different in content but same in name only. how to explain?


then again, who cares about sets?

See, the real fighters know that you can only use a small amount of CLF in a real life and death situation. there is no time to use moves from the sets. you have to adapt a few techniques and make them part of your fighting arsenal. but if you think the sets are going to make you a great fighter, then you are wrong?

why is there such an emphasis on how many forms or who teaches what forms?

Kwa Sow Chop is still kwa sow chop no matter how you look at it.

[iron_silk]

phonetics haha

he cant even spell it right, i dont really care bout his phonectics, being a gwai lo n all its normal for his phonectics to be wrong

yeh yeh its ok for EJ and his boys to say crap bout hung sing choy lay fut and call it hung sing kuen and discredit jeung yim lineage.

but its so wrong for me to say i hope ur clf is better

afterall according to his followers ping kune sup ji kow da are BASIC chan family choy lay fut forms. And there are much more ADVANCE choy lay fut forms that Jeung Yim didnt learn, EJ must have learnt them all by now so he's better at CLF than any HUNG SING CLF or BUK SING CLF guy

btw his cantonese does suck

pointers for improvement? well ur clf is so good already coz u got to learn the advance forms that jeung yim didnt get to learn i suggest u spend more time learning ur chinese. distinguishing cantonese and mandarin

still a coward eric

criticism is one thing but you are just insulting on a personal level without debating points. That just makes you are a jerk.

If you got a point to make then make it...but from the way you respond you make too many assumptions. That just makes you arrogant

I was just talking about the cantonese...not CLF since that was the post I was quoting.

[chasincharpchui]

I think I posted a link further back up the thread to the correct character. "Sou" as in to retrieve or take back. So "hoi maa" is to open the horse and "sou maa" to to retrieve or close the horse. I'm pretty sure it's standard terminology.


THe opposite of "hoi" (open) is sou (close), so it is "sou ma" to close the horse.

Cheers guys, keep training.

:)


yes u posted the link
but it was i who corrected ppl who listened to EJs explanation of sou

sou does not mean close


Ahhh! But don't forget not everyone speaks Cantonese with standard Hong Kong or even Guangzhou pronunciation. I believe that alot of the Chinese immigrants to the USA were from Toisan so this may skew the pronunciation.


sou does not mean close in any chinese dialect


I don't know what Chinese dialect EJ uses. But, for example, I think Toisanese use "doi" instead of "jai" (as in the above example). So I am only thrown by the "jag" character, but I still recognise the whole phrase.

no this tells me that he has heard someone else say it and doesnt know the correct chinese characters

and on a further note with pronunciation
sou does not mean close in any chinese dialect

[chasincharpchui]

criticism is one thing but you are just insulting on a personal level without debating points. That just makes you are a jerk.

If you got a point to make then make it...but from the way you respond you make too many assumptions. That just makes you arrogant

I was just talking about the cantonese...not CLF since that was the post I was quoting.

the jerks in here are the ones constantly attacking hskwarrior for defending jeung yim's legacy and lineage

EJ has bad chinese in general, hope his clf is better


and eric is still a coward


made my 3 points

[hskwarrior]

chasincharpchui,

Thanks for seeing it that way.

I will fight for Jeong Yim's lineage regardless. The more i fight the more comes to light. In the past especially around the 1970's at the Chan Heung Memorial Association celebration every one, i mean every one got lumped up with Chan Heung. All the other lineages had some problems with that because the were placed in the wrong area's under the wrong teachers.

As I've always said, Lau Bun's lineage is the oldest in the U.S (including his L.A. time) our school is over 80 years old and continously run. never closed down.

anyways, i understand that after us there wasn't too many Fut San HSK related schools. really it was just us and DFW. Then came along the laceys and tat mou.
but no one ever talked about the history or researched it. we had always just re-told what we were told until i started doing some research. In the beginning i thought Chan was OUR founder. but the more i dug up it sounded like jeong yim had a lot to do with CLF. more than just being a student.

so I understand why all the people's panties are all in bunches. only one story of CLF was ever told, and then here i came.....this loud mouth no one spouting off that Jeong Yim was co-founder. boy did i make a lot of people mad then.

but i said it before and i will say it again. There is more to Jeong Yim than just him being a student. do the research. you will find that chan heung is not worshipped in the Hung SING kwoon, Jeong Yim and Chan Ngau Sing are and even tam sam. but there are no photo's of Chan Heung up in the fut san kwoon.

it makes you wonder why?

again, thanks for your comments chasincharpchui.

hsk

[hskwarrior]

what i was trying to say was.....

in the beginning there was only us who told the FUT SAN HSK history. we researched it. others just took it for granted.

so for years only the chan family history of clf was told. then came us with another version of CLF history and everyone gets exicted. they jump down my throat because i didn't tell their story, i told ours which conflicted with theirs.

when you two different exponents of the same style with much notoreity on both ends you have to wonder why neither talk much about the other. they're from the same style, but chan heung doesn't mention much except that jeong yim was sent to fut san (which was untrue) by chan heung to take over the blind guys school. However, that's not how it went down according to the fut san hsk.

you have to wonder why these two stay away from each other like the way they do. both have made excellent contributions to CLF, but neither want to acknowledge each other. that's a shame.

still, the way some chan family members here (:rolleyes: ...EJ) try to sway the publics eye back over to the chan family whenever someone other than Chan Heung is mentioned is completely bogus to me. it seems they or he doesn't want others to take a look at Jeong Yim's lineage. and that sucks because CLF isn't ALL about chan heung. it's about every single teacher and disciple that came after the establishment of the system.

Choy Lee Fut is what it is today, Chan Family, Hung SIng and Buk Sing. To say anything to the contrary is foul. By bringing it back to chan heung only completely negates Tam Sam and Jeong Yim and what they've done for CLF.

Chan Heung only taught the "real CLF" to his blood line who would only then pass it down to their own bloodline. if you weren't part of their bloodline you would be sh1t out of luck.

However, Jeong Yim relied on his teachings from Lee Yau San, CHan Heung and CHing Chol. Tam Sam relied on his teachings from Lui Chun, and whatever his students learned from Ku Yu Jerng, and through his own fights. these two developed the CLF that was taught to them, and added in their own refinements outside that of Chan Heung. Our stuff is not taught in their branches, which means our choy lee fut is different than theirs. same roots, just different methods and approaches and sets. but it's still CLF. and since chan heung was the first founder, i can see why they try and put chan heung up in front of everyone else.
that's where the fight begins.

but, if the chan clan were to step aside when it comes to Jeong Yim and let his lineage tell his legacy without adding in their two cents then maybe in the future we can all get along as CLF brothers.

This fight isn't our fight. it has been going on probably since the 3rd generation.

it's up to us today to start promoting the whole CLF system instead of only one branch. when you only promote one branch you don't show no love to the others. then another fight will begin. and the whole thing will go on for another generation.

As CLF people we should start promoting it as a system with three different branches that teach different ways and methods of the CLF style.

In fact i would love to see new generation teachers teaching all three branches of CLF as one whole. a generation after that we might actually start living in CLF peace.

one big happy family.

CLF Yat Gar (Chan, Hung SIng, Buk Sing........not just chan family)

[iron_silk]

the jerks in here are the ones constantly attacking hskwarrior for defending jeung yim's legacy and lineage

EJ has bad chinese in general, hope his clf is better


and eric is still a coward


made my 3 points

just because they are jerks doesn't you are not. There are better ways of doing things...but if you never denied it then my bad.

just because EJ has poor Chinese doesn't mean hskwarrior doesn't have a poor manner in explanation...I never stopped him he just doesn't hold up a good arguement at times and go bit angry.

Eric (Fu-Pow) I never mentioned him at all...

You are straight forward so I guess I should stop complaining.

I am done.

[k-no]

News flash, dumb a55.

Choy Lay Fut was once a "made up style".

Now all these arts like Wing Tsun, Shotokan and EVEN Choy Lay Fut claim "grappling" or "anti-grappling" techniques to capitalize on the MMA craze.

Shall we now force them all to change their branch names?

Of course, it's kind of silly of me to respond to an obvious and not very good troll...

[CFT]

and on a further note with pronunciation
sou does not mean close in any chinese dialecthttp://www.365zhaosheng.com/html/2006/41/200641913551220224.shtml
Fourth paragraph.

Or even better, a CLF reference:

http://www.cngongfu.net/ct/12.htm

Point 159 on Baat Mou Kuen (White Hair Fist).

[chasincharpchui]

http://www.365zhaosheng.com/html/2006/41/200641913551220224.shtml
Fourth paragraph.

Or even better, a CLF reference:

http://www.cngongfu.net/ct/12.htm

Point 159 on Baat Mou Kuen (White Hair Fist).

okay on the 4th paragraph

if u really read it properly he 'kup see sou ma' which translates to retrieved stance in time. its not describing a closed stance. it juss says yip man retrieved his stance in time, and because its yip man he wouldnt be in a horse stance would he? he is bloody wing chun, they have a goat stance but not a horse. he would have been in a cat stance(diu ma), so being in diu ma that line either means he retrieved his leg from diu ma into an upright standing position or he did his wing chun retreating steps( i dont know wat they're called) ok...which brings


me onto ur next point....
actually wat was ur point?

i read the baak(not baat) mo kuen

at step 159 from diu ma to sou ma

that line it just means bring back ur leg from diu ma to stand upright position it doesnt mean wat hskwarrior was asking bout, wen ur in a horse stance and u drag 1 knee over to the opposite knee twist and lock the stance, EJ called that the sou ma stance becoz of his expertise in cantonese "open and close" "hoi & sou"

its better described in gum gong law hon cheung

step 89. sou jawh ma and then bring feet together

its still not a closed horse

sou still doesnt mean close

in both forms the sou comes in at the end of the form where you salute in cat stance and den step back together upright with ur feet. but u wouldnt know that would u coz u do fut san wing chun

in both points that ive made ur taking back the leg(the hanging/diu kerk)
into an upright feet togther position, not a closed horse stance

i cant believe u made me read a crap story on yip man

u could have atleast told me

waste of time

[CFT]

okay on the 4th paragraph

if u really read it properly he 'kup see sou ma' which translates to retrieved stance in time. its not describing a closed stance. it juss says yip man retrieved his stance in time, and because its yip man he wouldnt be in a horse stance would he? he is bloody wing chun, they have a goat stance but not a horse. he would have been in a cat stance(diu ma), so being in diu ma that line either means he retrieved his leg from diu ma into an upright standing position or he did his wing chun retreating steps( i dont know wat they're called)

....

i cant believe u made me read a crap story on yip man

u could have atleast told me

waste of timeSorry about that. I just searched for the term. I had a suspicion it was a story, but didn't read the full text.

BTW the Wing Chun Kuen basic stance is "Yee Jee Kim Yeung Maa" - Character Two Goat Clamping Horse. It still serves the same purpose as other basic horse stances in Southern CMA systems: training the muscles and ligaments for rooting.



ok...which brings me onto ur next point....
actually wat was ur point?

i read the baak(not baat) mo kuen

at step 159 from diu ma to sou ma

that line it just means bring back ur leg from diu ma to stand upright position it doesnt mean wat hskwarrior was asking bout, wen ur in a horse stance and u drag 1 knee over to the opposite knee twist and lock the stance, EJ called that the sou ma stance becoz of his expertise in cantonese "open and close" "hoi & sou"

its better described in gum gong law hon cheung

step 89. sou jawh ma and then bring feet together

its still not a closed horse

sou still doesnt mean close

in both forms the sou comes in at the end of the form where you salute in cat stance and den step back together upright with ur feet. but u wouldnt know that would u coz u do fut san wing chun

in both points that ive made ur taking back the leg(the hanging/diu kerk)
into an upright feet togther position, not a closed horse stanceThanks for the Romanization correction. That's step 90 in the Gum Gong Lor Hon Jeung that you've translated. OK, taking the individual character "sou" I agree does not mean "close", in normal language use we would probably use "gwaan", "baiy", or "saan". But taken together, "sou ma" in the above statement seems to convey the sense of closing the horse - i.e. you are retrieving the left horse, bring both feet together ("waan yuen" - return to origin).

Are we agreed that from a feet together position into ANY horse can safely be referred to as "hoi maa" (opening the horse)? You must have a very particular representation of a closed horse stance - what does this stance look like?

In the Wing Chun Kuen I practice we tend to close our forms in the face-forward goat clamping stance (no salutes - usually punches) then feet together, legs straightened out then palms pushed down at sides - which seems to be perfectly normal Southern CMA practice, why do you think that Wing Chun Kuen is some kind of alien practice?

[chasincharpchui]

Sorry about that. I just searched for the term. I had a suspicion it was a story, but didn't read the full text.

BTW the Wing Chun Kuen basic stance is "Yee Jee Kim Yeung Maa" - Character Two Goat Clamping Horse. It still serves the same purpose as other basic horse stances in Southern CMA systems: training the muscles and ligaments for rooting.


Thanks for the Romanization correction. That's step 90 in the Gum Gong Lor Hon Jeung that you've translated. OK, taking the individual character "sou" I agree does not mean "close", in normal language use we would probably use "gwaan", "baiy", or "saan". But taken together, "sou ma" in the above statement seems to convey the sense of closing the horse - i.e. you are retrieving the left horse, bring both feet together ("waan yuen" - return to origin).

Are we agreed that from a feet together position into ANY horse can safely be referred to as "hoi maa" (opening the horse)? You must have a very particular representation of a closed horse stance - what does this stance look like?

In the Wing Chun Kuen I practice we tend to close our forms in the face-forward goat clamping stance (no salutes - usually punches) then feet together, legs straightened out then palms pushed down at sides - which seems to be perfectly normal Southern CMA practice, why do you think that Wing Chun Kuen is some kind of alien practice?


yes it is agreed that feet together position into ANY horse can safely be referred to as hoi maa. sou ma is not particularly a stance its juss a move that u do from ANY horse into feet together position.


CLFNOLE or any other CLF student,

again my chinese is bad and i'm trying to get the chinese names for some of the horses.

For example. when in sei ping ma.......if you were to slide your right leg back to your left leg (or what we call "close horse" what is the chinese name?

and when in the closed horse what it is called when you step out into the sei Pin ma.

in the closed horse the knees are bent and you drag your foot towards the other one.

any help is appreciated.

clearly hskwarrior was not asking for 'sou ma' coz both knees are bent and u drag your foot towards the other one

yet


THe opposite of "hoi" (open) is sou (close), so it is "sou ma" to close the horse.

Cheers guys, keep training.

:)

from your understanding of the moves in the 2 forms which mention sou ma the explanantion by EJ is clearly wrong

And im not alienating ur style, goat stance exists in other southern kung fu styles
eg. jow ga
juss wing chun dont finish their forms the way most of them do

[CFT]

clearly hskwarrior was not asking for 'sou ma' coz both knees are bent and u drag your foot towards the other one

yet

from your understanding of the moves in the 2 forms which mention sou ma the explanantion by EJ is clearly wrongAhh I see now. Frank's "closed horse" still has knees bent but presumably feet together and is clearly not the end sequence to the form rather a transitory stance into another one. Whereas what I think of as "sou maa" is feet together, knees straight, salute/punch/palms down, etc. End of form.


And im not alienating ur style, goat stance exists in other southern kung fu styles
eg. jow ga
juss wing chun dont finish their forms the way most of them doDon't know what you mean here?

[hskwarrior]

hey whats up folks.

yeah, my closed horse is with both knee's bent, both knee's are touching each other, both feet are touching each other. then when we open up we open long with a slide of the back foot to recover from the distance.

that closed horse is good for close quarter evading of leg shots.

anyways, while in sei ping ma, (let's do a right closed horse) you pull your right leg inward-keeping your knee's bent-until it touches the left leg. slight pause then we would open up into either horses.

so the closing part is what i am wanting to know the name of. it's also a good hook of the ankle and when you close you are basically sweeping him. give it a try. start in sei ping ma. your foot has to be inside his front foot. close horse (use your muscle to help you) and the result should be his foot lifting and strectching towards you until he falls.

but the one it's being done to should act like he doesn't know martial arts because usually people always have to something when they do.

but thanks for your help folks.:D

[hskwarrior]

the closing (in description) is like closing a window, a sliding door, something of that nature. and the same is for the opposite (open horse) we open horse from a bent knee postion as well.

I'll describe a section of cheung kuen to make it easier to understand.

in sei ping ma, i start my circle punch, break, close and open, and repeat.

our circle is basically two poon kiu's (with the same hand) done in a continous circular manner, and on the downward motion as it hooks the hand of the puncher, the poon kiu clears (meaning sending it flying in the opposite direction) and the we yum chop to the stomach. the break part can be a break of a wrist hold, or even done in a pek choy manner using your forearm striking his upper torso. then we close, and open horse and repeat said routine three more times.

was that clear-er?:o

[CFT]

Frank, that was very helpful. I still don't know if there is a correct term, but my suggestion would be "hup maa"/"hop maa". "Hup" means to join together, in this case your legs.

http://zhongwen.com/d/166/x88.htm

Perhaps chasincharpchui can comment on the appropriateness. I'm not a CLF practitioner so don't know if this term is already in use.

[hskwarrior]

cft,

it's all good.

i think well, i hope there is a terminology that means like closing a door or window. at least that's the action of the horse right, to bring two sides together?

[chasincharpchui]

cft,

it's all good.

i think well, i hope there is a terminology that means like closing a door or window. at least that's the action of the horse right, to bring two sides together?

frank post pictures of wat ur talking bout
saves confusion and misinterpretation of wat ur asking

[hskwarrior]

chasincharp,

i will take some photo's today i hope.

i will post a few photo's with the stance, and also applications soon.

be patient.

thanks again for the pm dude.