Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun chi sao movie

[aaron baum]

this is a clip of Alan Orr Sifu and Neil training light chi sao from standup to floor....

www.alanorr.com/htdocs/images/neilandsifuchisau2.mov

best

aaron

[stricker]

thanks aaron. its nice seeing wing chun chi sao and stand up sparring into clinch work going to the ground etc together i wish i got the chance more often...

i wont give a step by step critique if you dont want as youll beat me up when i get the chance to meet you lot :D

also especially with chi sao ive found its very different in real life than a video clip.

ps when they were on the ground neil could have got out of the kesa gatame as if your not wearing gis you should be able to slip out and take the back pretty easy ;) i bet its not so easy tho alan looks like hes got big biceps on him.

[sihing]

Yeah, I liked the clip, going from a pure art drill to incorporating all kinds of ranges and situations in a sort of light sparring way. Great training at a lower intensity (no one gettin killed along the way).

Jon (Stricker), I stole a training idea from one of Emin's Lat Sau tapes. When two students are in forward facing X-arm stances, instead we don't exchange punches in contact range but alternate lead punch and rear pak (the other guy does the same pattern, when he lead punches I rear pak and so forth). From here I've found on a real simple level the idea of always chasing center and learning to do all of this from a more practical fighting stance. I've also found that you can do almost anything in relation to attacks from this posture (straight, lead/rear rounds, low straight or round, step back and kicking & even shooting). I figure it is a bit harder to intercept these things while being engaged with the regular drill of punching and pak'ng. Again this is nothing too too advanced, more of a beginner/intermediate level thing..I like it better than just having someone attack you once from a non contact range...

James

[AndrewS]

James,

pak punch is the older European lat sao method. I've done it for years and now far prefer what my sifu shows now- working punch to punch, outside/outside contact, inside/outside contact, outside/inside contact, inside/inside contact, showing how to use a punch to stop a punch from either inside or outside contact. Once you introduce changes this magnifies the focus on chasing center by an order of magnitude, and stresses your balance far more- the pak punch thing reinforces chasing hands and leaning on each other.

FWIW,

Andrew

[sihing]

James,

pak punch is the older European lat sao method. I've done it for years and now far prefer what my sifu shows now- working punch to punch, outside/outside contact, inside/outside contact, outside/inside contact, inside/inside contact, showing how to use a punch to stop a punch from either inside or outside contact. Once you introduce changes this magnifies the focus on chasing center by an order of magnitude, and stresses your balance far more- the pak punch thing reinforces chasing hands and leaning on each other.

FWIW,

Andrew

Cool Andrew. I think the way I am doing this drill is a bit further away in range than what I saw your Sifu doing on the tapes, as we are using at least one 10-12"step distance. Right now, with the students I have if I were to do this with them at any closer range they would all fall over backwards or just constantly retreat, they (and I for the most part) are still are not use to such a close range as of yet with forward pressure towards our COM, but when they are I will heed your advice and start using the punch as the counter action instead of Pak. We do a even more basic drill when we just sit facing each other in YJKYM and one partner chain punches down the centerline while the other alternately pak sau's, always chasing centerline. When one of them stops, the other should instinctively just attack over top with palm strike and control of the other limb. When students were not doing this instinctively I actually had them lean a bit to get that feeling of just hitting the center and not waiting for anything to be in the way, it worked for the time they did the drill, but I do not want them to gain the bad habit of leaning..

James

[stricker]

james,

yeah thats the vanilla lat sao roll. a lot of the gradings etc i think are based off throwing basic attacks off that hooks kicks etc. take any attack from any martial art, put it in the middle of that and hey presto thats a bit of the lat sao syllabus. not much like defending real attaks imo but still it has some value.

one other big part of the lat sao thing is attacks off mistakes. ie any mistake your partner could make from the perfect punch-pak is a way in. thats like a basic introduction to chi sao skills sticking following deforming wedging etc...

also do you know the change where you go from left lead to right lead and back? when you get that down it becomes more dynamic one of you can really pile the pressure on, changing angles etc. i liked that, lots of fun.

also one detail is the foot to foot contact, you can feel when the other person goes to kick etc...chase the centre with your footwork ;)

when i tried the punch on punch lat sao andrew described from neutral stance i thought it was very good. much more pressure on your stance, structure etc, really forces you into good technique, more directly fighting oriented etc. what andrew said...

also like anything beware its just a drill ;) of course drills are usefull too

[stricker]

also actually something you said reminded me of one of the mma drills which is basically a fairly long thai boxing drill (jab cross kick hook cross kick cross hook etc... ) then at random one of you shoots or if not on the mats just plays touch knee. the drill is just complicated enough to keep your brain busy while your practicing shoot defence.

[sihing]

Yeah, I like the "drill" because while you are doing the basic pak and punch, you are in the beginning distracted with that, where as from a non contact situation there is nothing to be distracted from, so in a way it can speed reaction time up a bit. There is also sensitivity thing at play here, as slight as it is, you should be able to feel something different when the other guy goes from the structure of the drill to an attack.

stricker- "one other big part of the lat sao thing is attacks off mistakes. ie any mistake your partner could make from the perfect punch-pak is a way in. thats like a basic introduction to chi sao skills sticking following deforming wedging etc.."

Yes I've found this out too, I usually have them pak right for the COM, but once in awhile I have them side pak, and the person receiving this has to change from wrist power point to elbow point & strike. Just something to mix things up a bit. In all the drills I explain that there are many variables that can be changed, like tempo, rythym or broken rythyms, power/intention towards center, etc etc..so you can make the drill harder as time goes by according to skill levels.

JR

[stricker]

good stuff james yeah i didnt say broken rhythms and all that... there are also attacks from the roll much like poon sao it can become a world of its own.

[Gooseman]

Did not like that vid at all, the heavier lad pulls a chancery headlock from the side and uses brute strength to get the throw, this would never work against a serious and well rounded grappler.
The repeat front kick was empty and not productive, and the overall posture and body alignment was stiff and unflexible.
The mobility on the ground was slow and unimaginative, Boztepe demonstrates this sort of thing 1000X faster and represents a more credible side of the art.
Keep training and maybe check out your local BJJ club to improve the grappling!
The Gooseman
( Honks only @ honking time ).

[Alan Orr]

Hi Gooseman? How about using your real name.

I noticed you had some feedback on a clip from my site.

Re:
Did not like that vid at all, the heavier lad pulls a chancery headlock from the side and uses brute strength to get the throw, this would never work against a serious and well rounded grappler.


Reply:
If you notice we are just playing, Neil who is in the clip is a good grappler, who is a amateur NHB Champion with 7 - 0 in amatuer fights. I was holding the head lock on him so he could work his way out, no brute strength was being used if you look at the body language. I was getting him to think. On the ground I just press him a bit and was again just making him work with relaxed strength which is a whole different thing to brute strength.


Re:
The repeat front kick was empty and not productive,

Reply:

Again, playing at the slow speed we were. I was showing Neil a gap in his distance control. Power was not required to teach this.

Re:
and the overall posture and body alignment was stiff and unflexible.

Reply:

This just tells me you have no understand of body structure. The back should be straight in Wing Chun. Linking and delinking of the kinetic links of the body (joints) gives you the skill to control or release power. Sure it is hard to see if your level of skill does not know what it is looking at.

Re:

The mobility on the ground was slow and unimaginative,

Reply:

Answer above, plus we where also on a wooden floor and the grappling was just messing around, as we like to Chi Sao with a mind open for any attack range.


Re:

Boztepe demonstrates this sort of thing 1000X faster and represents a more credible side of the art.

Reply:

Your opinion, so thats fine.

Re:

Keep training and maybe check out your local BJJ club to improve the grappling!
The Gooseman

In fact I have a good grappling back ground. Training with the Shark Tank in LA, plus many firends in BJJ who fight NHB in this country, my BJJ training partner Pete Ivring help me a lot, my studnets who have BJJ and wrestling backgrounds etc. I train my fight team who are out doing it. I train one to one and with small groups with Carlson Gracie black belt Leo Nagao from Brazil, whos now in London.

Real fighting or hard training is different that playing and teaching with is what the clip was showing. Also our method of structure is different than other Wing Chun systems for sure. But this is a method that been on the street in the ring and on the mat many times. We have a very open minded school and a strong group we welcome like minded or not people to visit us and that way we all learn. Also as I said many times before, its best to have had first hand experience or understanding of something before you add your views.

I was watching the runner Michael Johnson talk about his running style and how people where telling him he had to change it. Well, we know the rest!

We will have many more clips up in the next coming weeks. Some will be hard training as well. I will be putting up some instructional clips for people to get a idea of what our method is about.

My best

Alan Orr

www.alanorr.com

[wuzuquan]

Nice clip, great to seea smooth flow from Wing chun stand up to ground work.

he slow speed shows good control and confidence in posture.

One question Alan with the greatest respect, in terms of rooting you seem a little heavy on the front leg, how do you find this?...

I did the same for a while but found it lead me into leaning forward particularly when clinching with BJJ/MMA guys and actually drew me into lifting the hips and reducig the rooting effect? do you find this also?

Regards

[Alan Orr]

Hi Wuzuquan

Thanks for your reply. We use our stance 50/50 then load the weight depending of the contact of pressure or the release of force we wish to make.

This is a part of an article on my site www.alanorr.com where you can read the full article.

It may help, my best

Alan


Body Structure
It would seem that many practitioners of Wing Chun believe that having good hand movements in your forms means you have a structure in your system. Well, that is structure of hand movement, but that is not the same as having full Body Structure control. Also some may think that as they hold the stance strongly or even tense certain muscles that they have Body Structure. This is also not what structure is about. The term has become more widely used in the past few years since my teacher, Robert Chu, coined the term as an important, if not the most important, key to correct Wing Chun. Therefore in this article I would like to show some of the ideas that make up what we would term Body Structure in the Chu Sau Lei system of Wing Chun.

I have had many people telling me that they have structure in their Wing Chun, but on assessment of their control and use of movement it is apparent that they do not have the same idea of what structure means in the way we term it. Often they have a very fixed and/or static body structure, although not realizing it themselves.

I’m not saying they are incorrect to use the term for what they are doing, but what I am saying it is not the same ‘Body structure’ principles that Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun is based on.

“I use a pot of hot tea as an analogy. The heat is Qi. The pot is your body structure (Shen Ti Xing). The tea in the pot is Li (raw strength). The direction the tea goes in is Yi (intention). The tea pouring out is Jing (power).”
Robert Chu Sigung

Ideas like adjusting where the weight falls on your feet to maximize power control are foreign to most. So, why do you need power? To be in control in close-range fighting and be able to generate and receive force without losing your base, you need to know how to maximize your potential for power, which is exactly what proper Wing Chun will teach you. Body structure gives you a powerful base from which to attack, defend and control. So what are the attributes we need? The way I see it, they can be divided into External and Internal attributes. The external attributes are; being able to generate maximum mass through proper body mechanics and body power. The internal attributes are; Yi – Intention & Chi cultivation. A Wing Chun fighter should be soft on the inside and hard on the outside. What that means is internally you should be relaxed and centred and externally your opponent will feel that you are very strong and grounded which gives the illusion of superior strength. Often people tell me I feel very strong but at the same time they cannot really find how to control my source of power. This is because I am in fact not really using muscle strength therefore it’s much harder for my opponent to neutralize my body power.

A misconception?

Lik Chong Gerk Jang Sang - Power originates from the heel
Some people use the saying ‘power comes from the heel’. This may be the reason some people may think that having your weight on your heels is powerful. It is not.

The reason we use the terminology “originates” rather then “comes from” is that weight distribution starts from the whole of the feet before power is issued through the balls of the feet. So you could say that power started in the heels, but had to be transferred through the balls of the feet in order to be used. If you were to merely have your weight in your heels and not transfer your weight to issue power you would end up with a very unstable stance. This is why many people find it hard to equalize pressure or forward pressure when utilizing a stance position with their weight dead on their heels or any other fixed part of the foot. In truth you could say that the weight in your feet really truly depends on what direction pressure is coming into your body. What I mean by this is if you have true body structure the real skill is to take pressure and redirect that pressure into the ground, commonly described as “rooting”. If you have this control of skill you should be able to redirect the force through your body and also store force in your body, which will allow you to reissue it back to your opponent with greater power. That brings me to the next maxim which is often also misunderstood:

Ging Chong Gwut Gun Faat, Lik Chong Gerk Jang Sheng - Power comes from bones and tendons, strength originates from the heels
Often people describe power in Wing Chun being delivered by bone power or bone alignment. Unfortunately, what you often see is locking out of the joints, i.e. the main punching arm will be extended at the elbow and shoulder. This is a very limited source of power development and more importantly causes severe damage in the long term to the elbow and to the rotor-cuff of the shoulder. (As a practitioner of Chinese medicine, I can confirm that I have often had to treat this problem with new students). Now, locking the joints out on impact does produce a release of power but this is only a small amount compared to the power that can be produced with the whole body structure via kinetic linking to the ground. One of the main benefits of this type of body connection alignment is that not only can you issue power in this manner due to the “spring” nature of the body but you can also absorb power through the body into the ground without taking undue pressure into the joints. If you align your body in this correct manner the joints will absorb pressure and redirect the pressure without effort into the ground and the tendons will twist and strengthen and become stronger with this practice. Therefore when we talk about strength originating from the heels this is really talking about absorbing pressure and rooting therefore explaining the nature of the body in its spring position.

"Power originates from the heels, travels up the ankle and knee joints, is in conjunction with the waist, issues forth from the body and rib cage, travels down the shoulders, to the elbow, to the wrist and manifests from the hands". -Robert Chu Sigung

Let me sort out the missing links for you. Kinetic linking is a term which describes how to correctly load gravitational forces in your body.

Generating maximum mass is achieved through the alignment of the ankle, knee, hip, shoulder and elbow. These are the kinetic links in which power is generated and transferred. Should one of these links be out of alignment, its ability to transfer power from the rest of the body is reduced. To issue power using these mechanics you push your body forward and upward, making sure the three dan tian are moving in sequence, from bottom to top (Qi Hai > Tan Zhong > Yin Tang). Your three dan tian points are located approximately at the same positions as your segmented centers of gravity. So what you’re doing is pushing your entire mass forward and upward using all the aligned kinetic links (joints) in your body. Whether stepping or stationary, the principles remain the same. This is what is meant by using power from the ground up. Naturally, rooting power into the ground is done using the same mechanics.

The problem you will have in combat if you are locking out your joints is that you have committed your striking power. Therefore if you have actually missed your target you will find yourself exposed and also will have no stored power available. When I think of this I would say it is like having only one arrow, once you’ve shot that arrow you’ll have none left. If you generate your power from the ground you’ll have an endless source of ammunition. So now you have an automatic machine-gun! Therefore if you punch and miss you can then readjust and re-fire much more quickly and much more effectively because you haven’t over-committed your arm position. The fact is, the body alignment and body position are the important factors in generating power.

[Gooseman]

If you notice we are just playing, Neil who is in the clip is a good grappler, who is a amateur NHB Champion with 7 - 0 in amatuer fights. I was holding the head lock on him so he could work his way out, no brute strength was being used if you look at the body language. I was getting him to think. On the ground I just press him a bit and was again just making him work with relaxed strength which is a whole different thing to brute strength.

Ok, Alan, yes, yes, yes pin me, blind me with the old blah blah!

"The Goose in the Hoose"

[aaron baum]

i train with both guys and they are both skilled and tested fighters as well as being gentlemen. I train like this, as well as many different other drills, sparring and grappling etc...and the end result is here:

www.alanorr.com/htdocs/images/aaron%20pride&glory.mov

we train with guys such as leo nagao (world jiu-jitsu champion, world french-greco roman champion) who spars and trains with Bustamante, Belfort, Ruas....all good fighters id say....but thats only my opinion....

best

aaron

[stricker]

hehehe gooseman trained in the top gun academy of wrestling :p

or was that goose and iceman i forgot

so anyone wanna talk technical about this? standup, chi sao, clinch or ground? or just stuck in th my way is best you dont know what your talking about i train with x y z rut...

does anyone talk about actual wing chun or fighting... or just bs 2nd hand stuff...

[praecox]

hi aaron,

1. is Chi Sau strenght-fitness kind of drill OR "university" of precise, touch-sensitive contact and excelent footwork?

2. what is the right Fok Sau direction and why (Pon Sau section)?

3. what is passive hand, what is active (absorbing vs pushing)?

4. how to use the strenght of knees and how the good knees-work can change a lot?

5. from what section comes these boxing punching/footwork and why?

Chi Sau is not easy.

best

j