what is your view on Chen style TaiChi ?

[greendragon]

I am thinking of checking out a school teaching Chen family TC. What do you guys think of it, would like to hear either good or bad. How does it compare with other styles ? I have been doing the combined form popular in China. The Yang style schools seem weak, stiff and not teaching martial applications but that is just the local problem I am sure. I have a chance to go with Chen style but don't know much about it.

[Crushing Fist]

Chen style is very cool...


Its dynamic with quick explosive motions mixed in and more circular than Yang with its linear power delivery.


Doing Chen style is what first gave me explosive snapping power

I would highly recommend it.


BTW, the combined form you do, is that the 24 move form?

[greendragon]

yes, the 24 form. Sounds good, I've had some jook lum mantis so I can appreciate the snapping type striking. thanks.

[JuanMaldonado]

Chen style is very cool, looks very explosive. I haven't tried it myself but have seen some of it demonstrated. I would try it if I had a chance.

Too bad about your local Yang schools. Yang Style is beautiful to look at when done correctly and the apps are very powerful.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Taiji is taiji, all styles are good depending on what one is looking for.

http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=Xing;action=display;num=1147374280; start=0

probably your best bet on the net is to contact Mo_ling at Ef and ask him about chen style and different teachers here in the US. He seems to have a very broad and unique perspective on the art.

No, I do not practice chen style

[Hunt]

I've been been studying chen stlye old frame for about a year now....I must say that I went into it thinking of it as a supplement to my health, but the more I learned, the more I became facinated with the martial aspect....Of course I have nothing to compare it with...definitely empowering...of course 99% of this is due to my instructors

[Mo Ling]

Thanks for the kind words of course 'Leaf.
You know, your inquiry is hard to address because at issue is really what YOU are lookinng for and why. Answering that will answer your questions to some degree, but in the end, it is also about what you want to train, and why versus your local availability and/or willingness to travel.

If you want what Chen has but your llocal Yang style offering are of a higher calibre, I would suggest going with the highest skill you can rather than a lesser version of something presumed to be better/different. The same applies in reverse, if Chen or some other art is better locally.

[DarinHamel]

Chen style classes seem to be the only ones you can count on to have martial applications in them. I have seen no other Taijiquan that is so consistent across the country. Just as Chen usually has fighters Yang style usually doesn't. Worldwide it might be different but here in North America thats the way it seems to me.

I teach Yang style btw.

[yangyang]

Chen style classes seem to be the only ones you can count on to have martial applications in them. I have seen no other Taijiquan that is so consistent across the country. Just as Chen usually has fighters Yang style usually doesn't. Worldwide it might be different but here in North America thats the way it seems to me. I teach Yang style btw.

All I can say is WOW! Please show me all these North American Chen style FIGHTERS please. I anxiously await your response. I have never seen a single person who does Chen that actually fights. All this speak about Chen being the martial and Yang being the health is all nonsense. You get what you train, no matter what the style.

[DarinHamel]

All I can say is WOW! Please show me all these North American Chen style FIGHTERS please. I anxiously await your response. I have never seen a single person who does Chen that actually fights. All this speak about Chen being the martial and Yang being the health is all nonsense. You get what you train, no matter what the style.
Take a deep breath there buddy... I posted my opinion in response to anothers question. It was just one mans opinion. I did not post to argue. Take your anger somewhere else.

[Hulei Boy]

The Chen style and it's variation such as Zhaobao and Hulei do seem to sport some good fighters. The locks, leverages, and throws are all pretty evident and similar to the old Shuai Jiao or Chinese Wrestling throws. My teacher's teacher, Lin Ah Long only uses Taiji techiniques when he fights and is a renown fighter in Taiwan (he trains both Zhaobao and Yang style Taiji). The Chen Taiji people are also big on push hands drills and this is also most likely a good reason for their fighting ability. In fact, in push hands competition it is usually Chen people or Wu style (Wu Jian Quan) people that are the champs.

[yangyang]

Take a deep breath there buddy... I posted my opinion in response to anothers question. It was just one mans opinion. I did not post to argue. Take your anger somewhere else.

First of all, I'm not angry at all. To each his own, but you still haven't answered my question; Where are all these Chen fighters that you are talking about?? Show me some.

I'm not putting down Chen style at all, but all I have seen is push hands contests which generally are or become wrestling matches. I have seen no high level skill in any Chen push hands tournaments yet. Plenty of pushing and pulling though.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


I have seen no high level skill in any Chen push hands tournaments yet. Plenty of pushing and pulling though.LOL.. that is a perception.. if you have played with the likes of Josh Waitzken, Dan Caulfield, the Childress clan, Tiffany Chen, etc... you would realize that the "pushing and pulling" can be a very advanced sensitivity experience.. they can elevate sensitivity to a combat level, not just polite unbalancing games... Try pushing-hands with Taiwan Rules, where throws are expected and subtle manipulations in the heat of struggles are hardly noticable to the untrained eye.. I think we have a restricted perception of Taiji's martial capability, we seem to think it must be some esoteric set of mystical movements.. it is combat done with Taiji principles. At combat speed Taiji appears similar, it's the results that are Taiji's signature...

Be well...

[yangyang]

I don't know Bob, I respect your opinion and experience, but I guess I see things differently. The Chen tournaments (and Yang) that I have seen are tugging, pulling, and pushing, which is mostly the same way wrestlers get their advantages. The elavated sensitivity you speak of could or could not be TCC and I see no YI leading Chi or any of those higher principles being exhibited. Maybe it's the way the rules are setup which can be restricting and inhibiting, but judging by tournaments alone I see no fajing, no peng jing, just pulling, tugging, and pushing. I should also mention that I do see some good rooting skills anyway. I'm only an intermediate (at best) player myself, so maybe my eyes are not seeing the truth yet, but **** if it doesn't look exactly like wrastling to me:)

As far as the Tiffany/Max/William Chen Yang style people go, they train with boxing gloves and to me that is another non-tai chi type activity to train. I am not criticising their skillz but training methods that involve boxing gloves seems like Boxing, not TCC. I never heard of Yang Cheng Fu or CMC using boxing gloves.:)

[B-Rad]

As far as the Tiffany/Max/William Chen Yang style people go, they train with boxing gloves and to me that is another non-tai chi type activity to train. I am not criticising their skillz but training methods that involve boxing gloves seems like Boxing, not TCC. I never heard of Yang Cheng Fu or CMC using boxing gloves.
If I'm not mistaken, they openly train boxing and san shou to go with their taiji. If you look at the CMC form the punching and kicking seems pretty limited. Tiffany Chen is one of the few people I've actually seen knock people around in pushands though without resorting to wrestling or brute strength.

[yangyang]

If I'm not mistaken, they openly train boxing and san shou to go with their taiji. If you look at the CMC form the punching and kicking seems pretty limited. Tiffany Chen is one of the few people I've actually seen knock people around in pushands though without resorting to wrestling or brute strength.

If you practice traditional TCC as a martial art, there should be no need to supplement it with kickboxing and such. My comments are just general observations and not a criticisism towards the people you mention.

Generally, when people do this it is because something is lacking in their current training. TCC has kicks, punches, throws, fast sets, San Shou, and power development, but it's up to the individual practitioner to train it properly.

[SPJ]

There are also sub styles within Chen Tai Ji.

:)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


As far as the Tiffany/Max/William Chen Yang style people go, they train with boxing gloves and to me that is another non-tai chi type activity to train. I am not criticising their skillz but training methods that involve boxing gloves seems like Boxing, not TCC. I never heard of Yang Cheng Fu or CMC using boxing gloves.
If I'm not mistaken, they openly train boxing and san shou to go with their taiji. If you look at the CMC form the punching and kicking seems pretty limited.
Yes, they use boxing gloves, MMA gloves, bare hands, etc... they train in the safest yet closely realistic conditions .. it is better to train a Taiji fajing expression with some concern for the safety of the partner, otherwise we either injure the partner or do "air drills"..

CMC is only one perception of Taiji. WCC Chen has demonstrated to me, personally, the power he can generate from the "1 inch punch", i was darn happy he was wearing MMA-type gloves.. If you look at many perceptions (styles) of Taiji you will see all the applications necessary for self-defense.. The Chens' train in approximately realistic conditions using Taiji principles from many styles.. i can't seem to find fault with this approach.. If someone uses boxing gloves to mitigate potentially dangerous techniques in the training environment, what's the issue?

I wonder if the use of "boxing gloves" somehow changes the dynamics of training? It seems like it would empower someone to use more aggressive Taiji techniques while protecting the training partner.. acquiring a more practical knowledge of the technique.. If i decide to train with a willing partner in the use of FaJing force, i would anticipate a slow progression into 75-90% of combat speed.. at that speed protection is essential.. we will train the technique and the defense(s) to the point that it "makes sense"...

It doesn't seem proper to complain of non-realistic training on one hand and then lament the use of protective gear that enhances that training on the other hand..

Although i don't favor the CMC forms, i can't argue the capabilities of CMC or his students.. there must be something to it..

Be well...

[B-Rad]

If you practice traditional TCC as a martial art, there should be no need to supplement it with kickboxing and such. My comments are just general observations and not a criticisism towards the people you mention.
Depends on what branch of taiji you're learning. Besides, what's wrong with learning new techniques? If people only stuck with faithfully imitating the techniques passed down to them without adding and subtracting then there wouldn't be so many branches of taiji quan.

If you compete in something like San Shou you're going to need boxing techniques (or something similiar). Most Yang taiji people, while they may have good self defence skills, just don't have the punching or kicking techniques needed for competitive fighting contained in the form. Yang taiji has what... just a front heel kick? 2 punches? The traditional Yang style form and its derivitives have a lot of great fighting techniques, but is defenitely lacking when it comes to punching and kicking compared to the average san shou fighter. Knowing taiji quan isn't going to magically give you an awesome side kick (unless it's a traditional part of the training... like in Chen style for example).

[B-Rad]

If you're an expert in taiji quan learning new technique from an outside source isn't suddenly going to negate your taiji experience.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


If you're an expert in taiji quan learning new technique from an outside source isn't suddenly going to negate your taiji experience.Agreed, and didn't imply that it would..

Yang taiji has what... just a front heel kick? 2 punches? Sweeping Lotus Kick (Cut Eyebrow Kick/inside crescent) Punches? if all you can discern is 2 punches, look again.. ;)

Yang style form and its derivitives have a lot of great fighting techniques, but is defenitely lacking when it comes to punching and kicking compared to the average san shou fighter. Knowing taiji quan isn't going to magically give you an awesome side kick (unless it's a traditional part of the training... like in Chen style for example).There's nothing magical about it, if someone trains diligently, follows up with the associated QiGongs, meditations, drills, and fight-training.. all the tools you "need" are available for SanShou, or any other purpose.. Remember, there are people out there that have retained "original Yang", spirals, FaJing, conditioning, speed, etc....

From my experience(s), Taiji is more than the forms.. it is a set of principles that can be applied to external as well as internal situations.. the principles are universal, from combat to making love.. It is the narrowly focused or those with limited vision that seek to confine Taiji to some rigid traditional set of movements.. Taiji is living dynamic Art, it evolves in the same manner it was created.. through the insights and diligence of dedicated people..

Be well...

[B-Rad]

From my experience(s), Taiji is more than the forms.. it is a set of principles that can be applied to external as well as internal situations..
True, but you're not going to learn how to do a good side thrust kick without learning it from somewhere. And it's better to learn it from someone who's really good at it, and has used it extensively rather than try and reinvent the wheel.


Sweeping Lotus Kick (Cut Eyebrow Kick/inside crescent) Punches? if all you can discern is 2 punches, look again..
Sorry, I forgot about the lotus kick. I should've rememberd that, I've done a Yang taiji form before though it's been a long time since I've practiced it ;) As for the punches... I still really don't see much variety, at least without modification. At least nothing that would stand up to someone who had good western boxing skills. I'll try to look again though, as I said it's been awhile since I've practiced or looked closely at Yang Cheng Fu's taiji. My judgement could be clouded by the fact that I learned boxing techniques and other martial arts before I'd been exposed to taiji quan, so I never needed to look for it in my taiji form. Never NEEDED to practice it as a complete martial art, since I could defend myself fine before.

[B-Rad]

Quote:
If you're an expert in taiji quan learning new technique from an outside source isn't suddenly going to negate your taiji experience.

Agreed, and didn't imply that it would..
I was responding to Yang Yang on that one. I felt he was implying that learning new stuff from a san shou fighter or boxer meant you couldn't be considered a real taiji person. Like you said, "Taiji is more than the forms.. it is a set of principles that can be applied to external as well as internal situations.. "

If you find a technique(s) that isn't in your form work that you like, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to absorb it into your taiji quan. I mostly practice Sun style now, and it's a good example of this. Incorperating material from outside sources into taiji quan.

[yangyang]

In the Yang long form that I practice there is two side kicks, lotus kick, and about 4 front heel kicks, and there is about five different punches in the form. I don't know what you guys are talking about, but everything you need is in the tai chi forms. What? You can't isolate the kicks and punches from the form and train them independently??? I do. Using other arts principles are not the same as TCC principles, if you do that you are only taking yourself away from TCC. That's my opinion and many others as well. Do what you want, but it takes so long as it is to get the correct body method in TCC, why would you want to go and screw that up by learning how a boxer punches or a kickboxer kicks?? Makes no sense at all to me.

[Water Dragon]

If I'm not mistaken, they openly train boxing and san shou to go with their taiji. If you look at the CMC form the punching and kicking seems pretty limited. Tiffany Chen is one of the few people I've actually seen knock people around in pushands though without resorting to wrestling or brute strength.

If you pay close attention to the CC Chen guys, you'll see that the punching is actually pretty different than boxing. You don't have the jab, cross, hook, uppercut type combos. Instead you have your 'punch' which comes from a wide variety of angles (inside of a circle). For the most part, the fist and arm position doesn't change. The body changes more in relation to the opponent (this comes from Tui Shou) The mecahnics are trained pretty differently too although you end up with something similar (not exactly the same, similar)

As far as Chen Taiji, I'd say study the silk reeling and push hands, and find a good Judo club. Don't worry about the form or applications.

[tjqg]

The difference between Chen and Yang style is not on fighting.
Both Chen Fake and Yang luchan were great fighters, and none of any style Tai Chi masters are good fighter today, except their opponent are their students, though.

[greendragon]

Thanks for the good discussion, glad I came back as it took a while to get some response. To further clarify... I have a good background with hsing-i, pa-kua, aikido and some other stuff. I have been doing the combined 24 movement form taught by the chinese government for years, it is supposed to be mostly yang but mixed with other styles.
Now I see a chance to learn from an officially sanctioned Chen teacher. I see little skill in this individual from watching him fight in tournaments. However I am thinking of joining to learn the teachings of Chen and learn from the forms what I can. I like to keep adding to my fighting skills, even though I don't think I will ever need to harm anyone, fighting builds a strong spirit !

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..



Both Chen Fake and Yang luchan were great fighters, and none of any style Tai Chi masters are good fighter today, except their opponent are their students, though.How does someone make such an uninformed statement? I can inroduce you to numerous Taiji "fighters" that can hold their own in any venue..

Supposing that a person trains for 20 years in "external" arts then trains for another 15 years focusing on "internal" systems.. then, they insightfully apply the internal principles to all their techniques.. I suggest that they have evolved their fighting skills to be "internal".. Taiji is just a word, its principles are universal, and we sometimes come off as elitist when we battle of definitions..

There are too many people assuming that the only evidence of a "fighter" is found in sanctioned ring-style matches.. the evidence, by my standards, is observable when the MAist has to use it for real.. it's a different dynamic on the street, i've seen too many "good ring-fighters' get trashed in the streets.. Most people train for self-defense, not to be the next UFC champion.. It's almost comical how many students choose their art based on the current dominating style or fighter in sanctioned matches... The single most important quality is the student's dedication, almost any Martial Art will serve the dedicated student well...

Be well..

[qiphlow]

[QUOTE=TaiChiBob]
There are too many people assuming that the only evidence of a "fighter" is found in sanctioned ring-style matches.. the evidence, by my standards, is observable when the MAist has to use it for real.. it's a different dynamic on the street, i've seen too many "good ring-fighters' get trashed in the streets.. Most people train for self-defense, not to be the next UFC champion.. It's almost comical how many students choose their art based on the current dominating style or fighter in sanctioned matches... The single most important quality is the student's dedication, almost any Martial Art will serve the dedicated student well...
QUOTE]


i agree one thousand percent!!!!!!!

[pudaoking]

quote:
waterdragon said: "As far as Chen Taiji, I'd say study the silk reeling and push hands, and find a good Judo club. Don't worry about the form or applications."

Huh??????? I understand studying the silk reeling and push hands part, but find a judo club. Are you insane? Why would somebody studing Taijiquan, Chen or otherwise waste time learning Judo which is not even a martial art but was created only as a sport? That would be like a gourmet chef who studies his craft in france with top chefs to add to his cooking skills the art of how to make a burger king whopper. That would only waste time and be detrimental to his advanced training. And don't worry about the form or applications? Apparently you don't study any form of chinese martial arts, but in arts like Tajiquan the most important aspect, especially for the beginer, is in training form by training in the form. Without proper form study you have nothing. Don't even bother studying chinese martial arts because you will never get anywhere. The forms are an essential and indespensible learning tool in your lifelong journey of learning and practicing Tajiquan. Learning applications after you have completely learned and practiced the form for at least a year or two, is also very important, otherwise how else would you know how to use your techniques properly in combat. It usually is a wise idea to know what it is you are practicing or doing .

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Good Judo and good Taiji are of common principles..

pudaoking: I hope you're not serious about Judo not being a Martial Art.. it is, regardless of its lineage.. many of our most beneficial inventions were unintended consequences of other concepts.. The chinese invented gunpowder and used it for fire-crackers.. Judo is quite capable as a self-defense strategy..

Be well..

[Water Dragon]

It usually is a wise idea to know what it is you are practicing or doing .

It's usually a wise idea to know what or whom you're talking about as well. You make a lot of assumptions, most of them are wrong.

[pudaoking]

Greetings to you TaichiBob, I'm sorry to say I thoroughly disagree with you that Judo is a martial art. Yes it has been taught by some as if it is a martial art, but just because it has some techniques that you could use in a fight and just because it was invented by Jigoro Kano who himself was a master of Jujutsu doesn't make it any less a sport. Look anywhere on the google search engine under Judo and the people who study it themselves refer to it as a sport. Would you consider a WWF wrestler a real martial artist based on the fact that some of the wrestling techniques could be used by some in combat? How about football. The football players can tackle and take down an opponent, that's considered a fighting technique is that a martial art? Even my favorite sport, Boxing as effective as it can be out on the street, is still considered a sport, not a martial art. Martial arts are called such because they instill a higher learning in the individual for a complete way of life. They contain a philosophy and theories and principals to follow as well as moral and ethical teachings, they also cover as a complete system a path for spiritual enlightenment, improved health and better quality of life. A martial art is a complete system of self defense both in empty hand and weapons. It should cover all types of situations and be prepared to handle them. Judo has martial capabilities in only a few areas, like throws. Not much more, I believe that judo like sumo is geared as a sport only. Again I am only stating my opinion, I am sure there are Judo practioners out there who could hold their own against lots of martial artists, but it is still a sport.

[pudaoking]

Quote by waterdragon:

"It's usually a wise idea to know what or whom you're talking about as well. You make a lot of assumptions, most of them are wrong."

Hi waterdragon, I think I do know what I'm talking about as far as Tajiquan or other chinese martial arts are concerned. I always do thorough research before studying a style I may be interested in, by reading about it's history and liniage, current masters and practioners around the world who teach it as well as reasearching deeply into the styles theories and principals, techniques and applications. As to whom I am talking to or about, your right I don't know who you are or what your background is, you could be a master for all I know with thousands of students worldwide, I am only commenting on what information you have given in your posts. I think what you said regarding Chen style Taijiquan was extemely inncorrect, so I said so. As far as making assumptions which you claim are wrong, elaborate a little so I can understand where I errerd. Maybe your right and I assumed what I said about you not studying chinese martial arts is incorrect, and maybe I was a little harsh in the way I reffered to Judo as being beneath Taijiquan and detrimental to someone studying internal arts, so on that topic I apologize to people that practice that sport, but in regards to what I said about the importance of form and applications I know I am right on that subject. And if you do study traditional chinese martial arts, how can you dismiss form and applications when they are the core and foundation of your training?

[Water Dragon]

The base of Chinese martial arts are the way they develop and use power. The forms are simply one way to practice using that power. Forms are a small part of any 'traditional' school of CMA. They have much more painful things to occupy your time, lol. Right now, I'm coaching this kid who hits like a bulldozer, but he's real tense and tires himself out easily. He's also pretty slow. I have him practicing The Tan Ging Hay from Southern Mantis so he can get some relaxed power. My guys also practice the Chicken Step from Xing Yi to develop some stiffness on the jab. Pretty soon we'll start doing a little push hands to develop defense. We practice Muay Thai and MMA.

Remember from your history what Chen was designed for. It was a battle field art at a time when people fought in armor. So was Judo. The 'original' Chen would have been something used as a last ditch effort if you lost your weapon. So was Judo.

My opinion is that the kid would be better off learning the Silk Reeling, and push hands and going to a Judo club if his intention is to learn how to fight. That's simply my personal opinion based on my own experience.

[unkokusai]

It was a battle field art at a time when people fought in armor. So was Judo.


No, Judo was not.

[Water Dragon]

I'm not here to get into a yes-it-is-no-its-not argument.

[unkokusai]

Martial arts are called such because they instill a higher learning in the individual for a complete way of life. They contain a philosophy and theories and principals to follow as well as moral and ethical teachings, they also cover as a complete system a path for spiritual enlightenment, improved health and better quality of life.


This romanticized bull**** is tiresome. Pebble snatching fantasy boys who saw too many Kung-fu episodes on TV. :rolleyes:

Besides which, if you understood half the words you used there you'd see that all that junk can be found in just about any endeavor, from Kyudo to boxing, to cooking, fer cryin out loud. Give it a rest.

[mawali]

idea:
a. study yang style for 2 years.
b. study shuaijiao for 3 years

the result is that you will be far ahead of most taiji practitioners.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Chen style classes seem to be the only ones you can count on to have martial applications in them. I have seen no other Taijiquan that is so consistent across the country. Just as Chen usually has fighters Yang style usually doesn't. Worldwide it might be different but here in North America thats the way it seems to me.

I teach Yang style btw.

That's not a valid statement. While there are more Chen stylist who practice the martial aspects of Tai Chi, numerically, there are more Yang Stylists in the world, period. That skews the numbers dramatically. There are just more people practicing Yang Style than Chen, just as there are more people studying Yang than Wu, Wu (Hao Style) Sun style, etc.

There are more people who learn the Cheng Man Ching short forms and then think that they are Tai Chi masters and open a school somewhere saying that they teach Tai Chi.

[greendragon]

I have come to understand the differences. It is in the silk reeling. Chen uses a more spiraling and complex delivery of power with tan tien more like a spinning orb than a point to be moved in a linear direction. Power is brought up into the back and delivered and grounding is maintained through the Gua (inguinal cut). Direction is more from the waist and less from the hips, this is a subtle difference. Overall it DOES seem less relaxed than Yang, but then I am a beginner. ..and I don't like the footwork/stances as well as Yang. Just my report from my cross training experience.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Forgive my poor understandings here, but.. whether it be Chen, Yang, Sun, Wu.. whatever, the choreography is just a tool for educating the student.. Indeed, many "teachers" out there never got to any real depth of learning, they learned to dance the family dance.. There is as much combat effectiveness in Yang as there is in Chen, if you find the right teachers.. While the choreography is instrumental in learning, it is only the beginning.. the foundation of Taijiquan..

"Silk-reeling" is not specifically limited to Chen, it benefits all styles.. A well trained and experienced Yang teacher will reveal the internal structure of Yang after a certain level of competence is developed with the basic choreography.. that structure is circular, spiral and linear, it is expansive, not exclusive..

Mastering the choreography is like building a good road.. mastering Taiji is like building a high performance race-car to drive on that road..

At some point, Taiji is "realized".. the labels fade, and style comparisons become mildly amusing.. they are just different paths up the same mountain.. and, the view from the top is the same.. (or so i hear)...

Be well...

[tjqg]

If I'm not mistaken, they openly train boxing and san shou to go with their taiji. If you look at the CMC form the punching and kicking seems pretty limited. Tiffany Chen is one of the few people I've actually seen knock people around in pushands though without resorting to wrestling or brute strength.


people here speak highly about Wcc Chen, Tiffany Chen, i just went to their wevsite to see some pushhand clip, I don't know why those weird wresting called pushhand.

[B-Rad]

Got a link? I've never seen their website.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


people here speak highly about Wcc Chen, Tiffany Chen, i just went to their wevsite to see some pushhand clip, I don't know why those weird wresting called pushhand.lol.. this is a common comment from people that haven't played at that level.. what you see as weird wrestling is a very nuanced and dynamic Taiji skill-set.. these clips are of matches between people of considerable skill, they are listening, adhering, controlling and expressing in "real-time" and under pressure.. they are moving Taiji skills toward the level where it can be effectively used in highly competitive "full-contact" competitions.. A sad commentary for Taiji is that most people see no Taiji in the really harsh environments of "reality" fight games, from which they form the notion that Taiji isn't that good as a martial art.. Tiffany, Josh, the Childresses, Dan, Chris.. these are people that are willing to take the risks and raise the bar..

Be well...

[Shaolindynasty]

Martial arts are called such because they instill a higher learning in the individual for a complete way of life


Thus the "Do" of Ju"do"

[Zhijian Tsui]

Out of Chen Or Yang style,i always go with Chen Style.

[jack]

Among all the tai ji styles, old traditional cheng style taiji (老架) is the best & it is also the mother of all taiji styles.

Why it is the best also had something to do with its history background.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


Among all the tai ji styles, old traditional cheng style taiji (老架) is the best & it is also the mother of all taiji styles.Hmmm.. How about Lu He Pa Fa? It is easy to make such claims, more difficult to support.. Taiji is a dynamic and living Art, evolving with each successive generation.. lineage and ancestory is valuable but no indicator of current status.. We are here, now, today.. what works today is all that matters..

Be well....

[jack]

Lu He Pa Fa 華嶽心意六合八法拳

華嶽心意六合八法拳，又叫『水拳』，全名為『華嶽心意六合八法三盤十二勢拳』。六合八法相傳始自宋代陳希夷 ，不過是穿鑿附會之可能性極大。但又因六合八法之拳勢似以形意拳之整勁為核心、八卦掌之步法為轉移、太極拳 之柔勁為變化，故有人推測六合八法可能創於此三拳興起後的清代，而託偽於陳希夷。

　　『華嶽』即指此拳多流於華山一帶；『六合』即體合於心、心合於意、意合於氣、氣合於神、神合於動、動合 於空；『八法』乃行氣集神、骨勁內斂、象形模仿、圓通策應、頂撥虛空、往來返復、靜定守虛、隱現藏機；『三 盤』即上盤行走如追風、中盤動作如遊龍、下盤落地見真功，所謂『三盤練會是英雄』；『十二勢』即龍戰（推掠 ）、虎賁（撲差）、鶴列（攝引）、豹掌（劈捉）、猿眩（鞭擊）、熊板（撐撥）、雁翼（旋翻）、蛇行（伸縮） 、鷹拍（挑打）、鸞趨（纏繞）、鵬搏（翼抖）、麟盤（扣鎖）。正如其李東風祖師（傳為陳搏弟子）五字歌訣其 中四句：「心意本無法，有法是虛無，虛無得自然，無法不容恕」。

傳至近代遼寧鐵嶺人吳翼翬再從汴梁宋清文學得呂紅八勢，並將其加入六合八法之中。呂紅八勢，相傳為登封李逢 源所遺傳，亦有稱呂紅乃人名，字鴻文，乃明代高塘人。在戚繼光《紀效新書．拳經捷要》記載：「呂紅八下雖剛 未及綿張短打‥‥‥」其中所說的『呂紅八下』即『呂紅八勢』。呂紅八勢為衝擊、挑掠、斬截、翻擰、穿轉、閉 滾、雲撐、扳橫八下。
　　六合八法除有一路拳架外，還有單練法，稱為『三盤十二勢』。然而這十二勢已貫穿於六合八法拳路中。而現 今所傳各家架式動作均不盡相同，可能是因為吳翼翬根據各弟子的資質，而在所傳之架式亦有所改變 。

(轉自中國古今武術網)
參考資料:
http://hk.geocities.com/tai_chi_cchk/wah.htm

[jack]

Greetings..

Hmmm.. How about Lu He Pa Fa? It is easy to make such claims, more difficult to support.. Taiji is a dynamic and living Art, evolving with each successive generation.. lineage and ancestory is valuable but no indicator of current status.. We are here, now, today.. what works today is all that matters..

Be well....

Hi,
Do you study the history of the Ming dynasty?
Do you know where did the old traditional cheng style taiji originated from?
Do you know that old traditional cheng style taiji could be related to shaolin MA?

In order to know the old traditional cheng style taiji better, you have to read up some of Ming dynasty history.

[scholar]

Which Ming dynasty histories mention any style of Taijiquan?

I've read Chinese history for 30 years, and the earliest usage of the name I can come up with is 1850 or so...

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Well, Jack.. a translation might be helpful.. but, aside from that, i am quite familiar with the history of Taiji.. i conclude that beyond verifiable histories, it is speculation and conjecture.. people manipulate the ambiguities to suit their own purposes..

Be well...

[jack]

Taijiquan was not named taijiquan in the beginning, it had names like“長拳 ”、“棉圈 ”、“ 十三勢 ”、“軟手”. It was only called taijiquan at a much later time after it had been created. Why was it called taijiquan? That is because its theory had something to do with Taoism & Yi Jing’s teachings.

Have you ever heard of 《紀效新書》，《拳經三十二勢》written by a great Ming dynasty general called 戚繼光 & a stroke called 金剛搗碓 in taiji?

Do you know that the creator of old traditional cheng style taiji, 陳王廷 was once also a Ming dynasty military officer?

Old traditional cheng style taiji was created in a dynasty full of chaotic.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Taijiquan was not named taijiquan in the beginning, it had names like“長拳 ”、“棉圈 ”、“ 十三勢 ”、“軟手”. It was only called taijiquan at a much later time after it had been created. Why was it called taijiquan? That is because its theory had something to do with Taoism & Yi Jing’s teachings.

Have you ever heard of 《紀效新書》，《拳經三十二勢》written by a great Ming dynasty general called 戚繼光 & a stroke called 金剛搗碓 in taiji?

Do you know that the creator of old traditional cheng style taiji, 陳王廷 was once also a Ming dynasty military officer?

Old traditional cheng style taiji was created in a dynasty full of chaotic.

Why are you peppering your posts with Chinese instead of the transliterations? :confused:

[jack]

You can try software like worldlingo but translation could sometime result in giving you the wrong data. With the Chinese words provided, at least you can find out the truth yourself.

There are people who knew how to read & write Chinese in this forum. They will know whether am I providing the correct info or not?

------ ------------------------ ------------------------------- ------------------------------

For those who are learning yang style taiji, please try to learnt the Inner Residence Yang Style TaiJiQuan (楊氏府内太極拳). The widely spread yang style taiji, which a lot of people are learning now is not the real yang style taiji.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Jack: So, is it your assertion that you don't have the skills to adequately explain the concepts you put forth in another language? Or, is it that you enjoy demonstrating a skill of linguistics that others may not have? Forums are places where people come to interact on subjects of mutual interest.. cryptic or disguised messages fail to be classed as effective communication..

Be well..

[jack]

I guess you must have thought that I am uttering nonsense, right? The histories of old traditional chen style taiji & inner residence yang style taiji are no longer secrets in mainland, Taiwan & Hong Kong anymore.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/kpcheung79/INTRODUCTION.HTM

http://tw.knowledge.yahoo.com/question/?qid=1206060509842

http://www.gzbeauty.com/product/product.asp

These are some links that will help you to have a better understanding of old traditional chen style taiji & inner residence yang style taiji but too bad they are all in Chinese.

This is the least that I can do for you.

[jack]

http://www.gzbeauty.com/product/detail.asp?id=722
http://www.gzbeauty.com/product/detail.asp?id=721
http://www.gzbeauty.com/product/detail.asp?id=720
http://www.gzbeauty.com/product/detail.asp?id=719

[mawali]

1. Generally, laojia can be stated to be practiced by the older generation who are not into wushutaijiquan mode! Qingzhou may be said to be Old style (Frame)practitioner!

2. There is no laojia in Yang style. One may call Zhengfu/Zhenduo Xinjia because Luchan took all the obvious Chen style postures and made it a new.modern version and added his name.

3. The previous exertional level of all styles of taijiquan have been trimmed so much that most today is health exercise and form training. Very few people do gong training so much is lost.

4. Present lineage Yang style do not teach inner residence yang style (what the %ll is that? What is the exponent's name who teaches this? I am positive he is not a present Yang recorded lineage member!

5. There is no Ming dynasty taijquan exponent since the surnames were Chen>Yang>Wu2>Wu3>Sun (recent). Please give a name so I can check on this.
To my recollection there is no Cheng style unless one is referring to Cheng Manqing and he is recent and not in frame of Ming (1644-1911/12?).

[jack]

Hi,

1.Qing Zhou? Are referring to 陈庆州?

http://www.gzbeauty.com/product/product.asp?page=8&id=58&keyword=&types=&week=0

2.There could be some laojia movements in yang style. Remember the second form of laojia is called 炮捶(Here I called it the cannon punch/fists).

http://www.gzbeauty.com/product/detail.asp?id=720

I saw the sentence:智捶中主要有撇身捶、搬拦捶、栽捶、指裆捶、肘底捶等捶法。I believe撇身捶、搬拦捶、栽捶、指裆捶、肘底捶are laojia’s cannon punch/fists movements.

3. Yes, Present lineage Yang style does not teach inner residence yang style. The story goes like this: When yang lu chan (楊露禪) started teaching taijiquan. He changed it into something that had softer approach because most of his students were royalties that had poorer physical stamina as comparing with those farmers, soldiers etc. He taught them the real stuffs but one of his sons (I believe it was his elder son, yang ban hou（楊班候）) was unhappy about it cos he felt that the real stuffs should be kept within the yang family. Yang ban hou even took over the teaching & created a new kind of yang style taijiquan, which is the present lineage Yang style.

But one of the student (I can’t recall his name) who was working for one of the royalties refused to gave up his yang style. So an agreement was make between him & the Yang family that he (the student) wouldn’t told others the secret of the real yang style taiji.

Masters & students of inner residence yang style were always under attacked by masters & students of present lineage Yang style until recently. But things had changed as more & more people believed them when inner residence yang style practitioners started publishing their articles & vcds to the public.

The master which you saw on the vcd cover is Li Zheng（李正）.He learned both inner residence yang style & present lineage Yang style.

4. Cheng Man Qing is 鄭曼青 from Taiwan. He created the Zheng Zi Tai Ji Quan, 鄭子太極拳. Cheng could meant chinese characters of 程,鄭,陳 & many more. That is why I said, “translation could sometime result in giving you the wrong data.”!

Cheng Manqing learnt his taiji from Yang Deng Fu (楊澄甫) of the yang family & Ye Da Mi (葉大密) in shanghai. It was Ye Da Mi, who introduced Cheng Man Qing to Yang Deng Fu. But when he went to Taiwan, he only acknowledged yang deng fu as his taiji master & left out Ye Da Mi cos Yang Deng Fu was much more famous at that time.

Besides Yang Deng Fu, Cheng Manqing also claimed that a Taoism priest named Zuo Peng Lai (左蓬萊) & monk called Baggie Monk (布袋和尚) taught him MA too. But this was totally unheard of when he was still in shanghai.

Yang Deng Fu & Sun Lu Tang (孫祿堂) were both Ye Da Mi’s taiji teachers. Sun Lu Tang is the founder of the Sun style taiji. But Sun style taiji is not a pure taiji because it had included the Ba Gua & Xing Yi’s techniques in it. As for Ye Da Mi, he later created his Ye style taiji.

[scholar]

I see, by looking at the characters I can tell that what jack means by "cheng" style we would understand as "chen" style, as in Chen Wangting, Chen Fake, Chen Xin, Chenjiaguo, etc.

That clears things up a bit. There may be records of that family from Ming times, I'm not aware of any, and they may very well have been doing what we would today call Taijiquan, but I don't think it was called that then.

As near as I can tell, Yang Luchan and Wu Yuxiang were the first to use the term when they were promoting the art they had learned from the Chens to the Qing court. Yang Luchan and Yang Banhou were also teaching the Palace Brigade of the Qing Imperial Guards, so I doubt they watered it down any for the military, who wouldn't have been easy to fool. The full transmission is reported to have gone from Luchan and Banhou to Wu Quanyuo, at least.

[omarthefish]

Oh...the irony......




。。。 That is why I said, “translation could sometime result in giving youthe wrong data.”!

Cheng Manqing learnt his taiji from Yang Deng Fu (楊澄甫) of the yang family . .. Deng Fu ....

Besides Yang Deng Fu...Sun Lu Tang (孫祿堂) ...

You mis-translated Yang Chengfu in English, not a typo because you called him Yang "Deng" Fu multiple times and you got Sun Lutang's name wrong in Chinese. It's 孙禄堂. ;)

[omarthefish]

2. There is no laojia in Yang style. One may call Zhengfu/Zhenduo Xinjia because Luchan took all the obvious Chen style postures and made it a new.modern version and added his name.

Absolutely not true. "Lao Jia" is the appropriate term to refer to all versions of Yang style that pre-date the Yang Chengfu version. Mostly that just means the 108 but there are a few others as well. The style I train is called the "Lao Jia 103" and is a later variant but still from before Yang Chengfu made his contributions to the style.


5. There is no Ming dynasty taijquan exponent since the surnames were Chen>Yang>Wu2>Wu3>Sun (recent). Please give a name so I can check on this.
To my recollection there is no Cheng style unless one is referring to Cheng Manqing and he is recent and not in frame of Ming (1644-1911/12?).

But Yang Luchan was Ming era. If he was teaching in the imperial palace he was Ming dynast. LATE Ming but who do you suppose he was teaching? The republican army? And what about all those Chen's, many generations of Chens in the Ming dynasty.

p.s.


Lu He Pa Fa 華嶽心意六合八法拳

華嶽心意六合八法拳，又叫『水拳』，全名為『華嶽心意六合八法三盤十二勢拳』。六合八法相傳始自宋代陳希夷 ，不過是穿鑿附會之可能性極大。但又因六合八法之拳勢似以形意拳之整勁為核心、八卦掌之步法為轉移、太極拳 之柔勁為變化，故有人推測六合八法可能創於此三拳興起後的清代，而託偽於陳希夷。

　　『華嶽』即指此拳多流於華山一帶；『六合』即體合於心、心合於意、意合於氣、氣合於神、神合於動、動合 於空；『八法』乃行氣集神、骨勁內斂、象形模仿、圓通策應、頂撥虛空、往來返復、靜定守虛、隱現藏機；『三 盤』即上盤行走如追風、中盤動作如遊龍、下盤落地見真功，所謂『三盤練會是英雄』；『十二勢』即龍戰（推掠 ）、虎賁（撲差）、鶴列（攝引）、豹掌（劈捉）、猿眩（鞭擊）、熊板（撐撥）、雁翼（旋翻）、蛇行（伸縮） 、鷹拍（挑打）、鸞趨（纏繞）、鵬搏（翼抖）、麟盤（扣鎖）。正如其李東風祖師（傳為陳搏弟子）五字歌訣其 中四句：「心意本無法，有法是虛無，虛無得自然，無法不容恕」。

傳至近代遼寧鐵嶺人吳翼翬再從汴梁宋清文學得呂紅八勢，並將其加入六合八法之中。呂紅八勢，相傳為登封李逢 源所遺傳，亦有稱呂紅乃人名，字鴻文，乃明代高塘人。在戚繼光《紀效新書．拳經捷要》記載：「呂紅八下雖剛 未及綿張短打‥‥‥」其中所說的『呂紅八下』即『呂紅八勢』。呂紅八勢為衝擊、挑掠、斬截、翻擰、穿轉、閉 滾、雲撐、扳橫八下。
　　六合八法除有一路拳架外，還有單練法，稱為『三盤十二勢』。然而這十二勢已貫穿於六合八法拳路中。而現 今所傳各家架式動作均不盡相同，可能是因為吳翼翬根據各弟子的資質，而在所傳之架式亦有所改變 。

(轉自中國古今武術網)
參考資料:
http://hk.geocities.com/tai_chi_cchk/wah.htm

I warned y'all this was gonna happen, or at least I tried to.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42334

I caught some crap for coming down on the last guy to post just in Chiense saying I was beeing a hardass or something. Well, enjoy the new world order. KFO has just gone bilingual. :(

[jack]

Oh...the irony......



You mis-translated Yang Chengfu in English, not a typo because you called him Yang "Deng" Fu multiple times and you got Sun Lutang's name wrong in Chinese. It's 孙禄堂. ;)

I just look up the dictionary. 澄 can be pronounce as cheng or deng. Actually, 楊澄甫's real name is 楊兆清. 楊澄甫 is his other name.

孫祿堂 is in traditional chinese, whereby 孙禄堂 is in simplified chinese.

Traditional chinese is an old ancient & fully grown wording system being used for thousand of years. Whereby simplified chinese's history is too short & its system is also incomplete in order to fully replace traditional chinese.

Simplified chinese is much more easy to learn than traditional chinese. But many traditional chinese books, calligraphy & cultures etc. can only be fully understood by knowing traditional chinese.

[jack]

Absolutely not true. "Lao Jia" is the appropriate term to refer to all versions of Yang style that pre-date the Yang Chengfu version. Mostly that just means the 108 but there are a few others as well. The style I train is called the "Lao Jia 103" and is a later variant but still from before Yang Chengfu made his contributions to the style.


But Yang Luchan was Ming era. If he was teaching in the imperial palace he was Ming dynast. LATE Ming but who do you suppose he was teaching? The republican army? And what about all those Chen's, many generations of Chens in the Ming dynasty.

p.s.



I warned y'all this was gonna happen, or at least I tried to.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42334

I caught some crap for coming down on the last guy to post just in Chiense saying I was beeing a hardass or something. Well, enjoy the new world order. KFO has just gone bilingual. :(

1．In the past, when various Europe empires & America ruled many parts of the world. They had to recorded, pronounced & remember the names of the places, the people & all various stuffs in their own individual ways. And ambiguity started, even in UK & US English too.

As for the Chinese…..In mainland, cheng is 程 & chen is 陳. But in Taiwan & Hong Kong, cheng is 鄭。It’s ambiguity too.

2．Well, Your kind of “lao jia” may not be his kind of “lao jia”. And my kind “lao jia” may not be your kind of “lao jia”. It’s still ambiguity but this time round, it’s in definitions & standards.

In order to end such kind of ambiguity, it will be best if we can go back to the basic. That is the old traditional chen style.

3．The founder of taijiquan, chen wang ting (陳王廷) lived in the Ming era, late Ming. Taiji is a MA based on various MAs during the Ming era.

Yang luchan doesn’t lived in the Ming era. He lived in the Qing era. He learned taiji from chen chang xing (陳長興) of the chen family.

[omarthefish]

I just look up the dictionary. 澄 can be pronounce as cheng or deng. Actually, 楊澄甫's real name is 楊兆清. 楊澄甫 is his other name.

Nevertheless, his name is pronounced Yang CHengfu. As the most famous Taijiquan teacher outside of granpa Yang Luchan, you should know that.


孫祿堂 is in traditional chinese, whereby 孙禄堂 is in simplified chinese.

Got me there.


Traditional chinese is an old ancient & fully grown wording system being used for thousand of years. Whereby simplified chinese's history is too short & its system is also incomplete in order to fully replace traditional chinese.

Get your head out of the sand. It already HAS replaced traditional Chinese for the VAST majority of Chinese speakers.


But many traditional chinese books, calligraphy & cultures etc. can only be fully understood by knowing traditional chinese.

Bull****. Name one.

You aren't even fluent in either one yourself. You are in no position to be making this argument.


1．In the past, when various Europe empires & America ruled many parts of the world. They had to recorded, pronounced & remember the names of the places, the people & all various stuffs in their own individual ways. And ambiguity started, even in UK & US English too.

Explain how this is relevant to the thread or at least why it was in reponse to one of my posts because it looks like a complete nonesequeter to me.


As for the Chinese…..In mainland, cheng is 程 & chen is 陳. But in Taiwan & Hong Kong, cheng is 鄭。It’s ambiguity too.

There's nothing ambigous about that. That's just your inadequate Chinese showing through again. Either that or your Taiwanese accent. The character 鄭 is not a Taiwanese versoin of 程. It is a Taiwanese or rather just traditional writing of 郑， which is pronounced "zheng" not "cheng". Very similar and with a Taiwanese accent probably almost indistinguishable.


2．Well, Your kind of “lao jia” may not be his kind of “lao jia”. And my kind “lao jia” may not be your kind of “lao jia”. It’s still ambiguity but this time round, it’s in definitions & standards.

There's nothing ambiguous about it to anyone with half a brain and at least a high school education in English. You said that there is no "lao jia" in Yang style but there is. No if's and's but's or ambiguity. I can say with absolute clarity that there IS, in fact, "lao jia" in Yang style. The fact that there is also a "lao jia" in Chen style should not be confusing to anyone who is not either totally high or just doesn't speak English as their first language.

My basic reason for coming down on you over this is that it's just dumb and pretentious. You are acting kind of like some sort of linguistic or historical elitest when you don't even have most of this stuff right yourself. What is the point in putting in Chinese characters next to every signifigant name? Are you planning to turn in a book report later? The effete intellectual thing you've got going here would work better if you didn't keep making mistakes with the terminology and then trying to covering it up with meaningless platitudes about the vagueries of the language when in this case it's not vague at all.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
p.s.

Yang luchan doesn’t lived in the Ming era. He lived in the Qing era. He learned taiji from chen chang xing (陳長興) of the chen family.

I misread your post there. Sorry.

[jack]

1.Yes, most people pronounced his name as Yang Chengfu. But most people did don’t mean others can’t pronounce his name as Yang Deng Fu since dictionary allowed two pronunciation of the same character. I heard others address him as yang dengfu before. People should be allowed to make their selections & choices whenever there is a chance.

By the way, the dictionary I checked is a simplified chinese dictionary.

2. Actually the first kind of chinese that I learn is simplified chinese, not traditional chinese. But chinese characters system is actually a kind of symbolical wording system. Traditional chinese characters could reflect better than simplified chinese in symbolical expression.

3. No doubt that simplified chinese characters had replaced traditional chinese characters for majority Chinese speakers. But traditional chinese is an culture asset, an old ancient chinese culture asset. And there are still millions of people using it, even the Korean & Japanese are still using it too. Sometimes, majority don’t mean that it is right to do so.
Why must people destroy it just because of some political differences? This is bad.
4. By having some knowledge in both simplified & traditional chinese, I know how Sun Lu Tang was written in both simplified & traditional chinese. Can you?

Just imagine, if you only knew simplified chinese & you got no or very little knowledge of traditional chinese. And one day you need to find some info in those old books, calligraphy etc. written in traditional chinese. Would you not have difficulties in reading them or may be miss out something?

If foreign languages were allowed to be taught & used in mainland, why can’t traditional chinese be allowed to continued its existence in this world?

5. I was just hoping that by stating the dissimilarity of simplified & traditional Chinese; the dissimilarity of the way how mainland PRC, Taiwan ROC, Hong Kong SAR & others’ pronunciation & interpretation of a same character will help non-Chinese speakers or interested personnel to have a better understanding of the ambiguities that happened. This is what I was thinking, at least.

Go check the regional & language options in your operating system. You can see that even under a same language, it was divided into many countries’ uses.

6. For temporary could you please put down those chinese histories books in your hands & go read up more other histories books of the world. Don’t forget to read up UK & US English books too.

Sometimes I just grouped my answers or views & post them out in one same article. They don’t really have to be addressed directly to someone. Stop thinking that every article or paragraph that replied was out to get you.
7. In traditional chinese, 楊鄭孫祿 are written in this way. In simplified chinese, 杨郑孙禄are written in this way. If you used mainland’s HanYuPinYin(汉语拼音) system, 郑 is zheng but if you used taiwan’s GuoYuPinYin(國語拼音), 鄭 is cheng. Besides HanYuPinYin & GuoYuPinYin systems, there are others . It also depends on what kind of software that you use too.

Just alone the word, yang in simplified chinese of HanYuPinYin system could have given you characters like 杨扬阳养羊养洋& many more.

周潤發or 周润发is also known as Chow Yun-Fat in Hong Kong, US & other places. Is it wrong for him to use the name of Chow Yun-Fat? And why is he being called Chow Yun-Fat?

Because Chow Yun-Fat is a Hong Kong’s Cantonese! In catonese, 周 is being pronounced as Chow, 潤is being pronounced as Yun & 發is being pronounced as Fat. There is nothing wrong to use chow for周 & cheng for 鄭!

7. I am not a linguistic or historical elitest but are you one?

You don’t even know that yang luchan lived in the Qing dynasty.
You don’t even know that 澄 can be either pronounce as cheng or deng.
You don’t even know that how sun lutang was written in both traditional & simplified chinese.

You are way worst than me, man.

8. You don’t have start politics here. There is no need to start another new one here. We already have a lot here.

[omarthefish]

lol@

1.Yes, most people pronounced his name as Yang Chengfu. But most people did don’t mean others can’t pronounce his name as Yang Deng Fu since dictionary allowed two pronunciation of the same character. I heard others address him as yang dengfu before. People should be allowed to make their selections & choices whenever there is a chance.

Yes it DOES mean that others can't pronounce his name as Yang Dengfu because that's not his name. The fact that you think multiple entries in a the dictionary for the character means you could go either way with it just highlights your ignorance of how the language works. The English equivalent is called either a heteronymn or a ****graph. Here's some examples:

http://rinkworks.com/words/heteronyms.shtml
http://www.rhlschool.com/eng3n19.htm

For those too lazy to click on the links it's like english, the word "buffet". You can't just swith pronounciations on a whim because the dictionary has 2 of them. The one that means a place to eat and the one that means to get beaten about are distinct and to use one pronounciation in place of the other is just wrong and quite frankly...comical. You can NOT say I was "bufayed" about by the high winds" and be any more correct than going up to the "bufet[/i] for more sausages". Likewise, the creator of the Yang 88 was Yang CHENGfu, like it or not.



By the way, the dictionary I checked is a simplified chinese dictionary.

Well goodie for you. You are still wrong.




5. I was just hoping that by stating the dissimilarity of simplified & traditional Chinese; the dissimilarity of the way how mainland PRC, Taiwan ROC, Hong Kong SAR & others’ pronunciation & interpretation of a same character will help non-Chinese speakers or interested personnel to have a better understanding of the ambiguities that happened. This is what I was thinking, at least.

That's just it though. There's nothing ambiguous. Just a lot of people who are wrong. The people who actually are from Taiwan, mainland China or HK can all communicate this stuff with 100% accuracy. The only question is the individual's level of literacy. It's only ambiguous if you are speaking English. No need to try and overmystify stuff like that.

---------------------------------------------
skipping past the mountain of vague off-topic political stuff an back to the language issue.....
---------------------------------------------




If you used mainland’s HanYuPinYin(汉语拼音) system, 郑 is zheng but if you used taiwan’s GuoYuPinYin(國語拼音), 鄭 is cheng. Besides HanYuPinYin & GuoYuPinYin systems, there are others . It also depends on what kind of software that you use too.

Yes and in the American south "potatoes" are often called "'taters" but that doesn't make it proper "English" pronounciation. All you are pointing out is that people in Taiwan "talk funny". Why not just go all the way and bring in the dialects? What about Spainish and Italian? Is the phrase "How are you doin?" ambiguous because Mexicans say "Como estas" and Italians say "Como estai"? (I don't know how it's spelledin Italian. Just spelling it like I hear it.)

Yeah. People who speak different languages like Cantonese or Mandarin pronounce things differently. There's a big revelation. :rolleyes: Comparing Taiwanese speakers to PRC speakers is like comparing British speakers to American. Big deal.

And putting little Chinese characters beside every 3rd phrase in your posts is pretentious as hell. Get over yourself. You just do it at random. There's nothing confusing about "guoyupinyin" vs. "hanyupinyin". Get over yourself already.


Just alone the word, yang in simplified chinese of HanYuPinYin system could have given you characters like 杨扬阳养羊养洋& many more.

Yes and not one of them is the least bit confusing. If you actually spoke Chinese you'd know that. Speech gives context. How about "bat". I suppose you often find that ambigiuous as you can never tell if it means something used in baseball, something that flies around at night or something used to take small hits of pot in semi-public areas. :p In context it should be 100% clear. Same with the phoneme "yang"


周潤發or 周润发is also known as Chow Yun-Fat in Hong Kong, US & other places. Is it wrong for him to use the name of Chow Yun-Fat? And why is he being called Chow Yun-Fat?

Because Chow Yun-Fat is a Hong Kong’s Cantonese! In catonese, 周 is being pronounced as Chow, 潤is being pronounced as Yun & 發is being pronounced as Fat. There is nothing wrong to use chow for周 & cheng for 鄭!

Wrong again because while "Zhou Runfa" and "Chow Yunfat" are different dialectics' pronounciation for the same 3 characters, 鄭 and 程 are not the same character. It's not traditional vs. simplified. They are just different characters.


7. I am not a linguistic or historical elitest but are you one?

Yes I am actually. You OTOH, I feel are more of a dilletante.


1.You don’t even know that yang luchan lived in the Qing dynasty.
2.You don’t even know that 澄 can be either pronounce as cheng or deng.
3.You don’t even know that how sun lutang was written in both traditional & simplified chinese.

Put your reading glasses on and go back and re-read the same page.

1. I already posted that I misread your post and mis-spoke.
2. No. Actually you are just being and idiot. It CAN be pronounced either way, just not in his name. Check the links above on ****graphs for reference.
3. No. I didn't "even know" that you were typing in traditional. I see things first in simplified out of habit. I can read traditional stuff just fine. Writing would be a problem but reading is not.


8. You don’t have start politics here. There is no need to start another new one here. We already have a lot here.
That's actually your own sidetrack. All this business about preserving traditional characters and whatnot. Completely irrelevant to my points which are:

- the ambiguity you allude to doesn't exist.
- randomly sprinkling your posts with Chinese characters for no apparent reason is really pretentious.
- you mis-read Yang Chengfu's name and won't own up to it.

[omarthefish]

p.s.

The language sensor removed the letters h o m o from the word "h o m o graphs".

lol. That's awsome. It's not even a swear word. I guess from now on I'll have to go back to calling them "rump rangers" since the word **** is not allowed here. :rolleyes:

[scholar]

I had the same problem with Chen S...h...i...tong's name when I tried to post this video a while back. It is appropriate to the thread, however... ;-)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8643034864900307444&q=taijiquan+tai+chi+chuan

[jack]

lol@


Yes it DOES mean that others can't pronounce his name as Yang Dengfu because that's not his name. The fact that you think multiple entries in a the dictionary for the character means you could go either way with it just highlights your ignorance of how the language works. The English equivalent is called either a heteronymn or a ****graph. Here's some examples:

http://rinkworks.com/words/heteronyms.shtml
http://www.rhlschool.com/eng3n19.htm

For those too lazy to click on the links it's like english, the word "buffet". You can't just swith pronounciations on a whim because the dictionary has 2 of them. The one that means a place to eat and the one that means to get beaten about are distinct and to use one pronounciation in place of the other is just wrong and quite frankly...comical. You can NOT say I was "bufayed" about by the high winds" and be any more correct than going up to the "bufet[/i] for more sausages". Likewise, the creator of the Yang 88 was Yang CHENGfu, like it or not.



Well goodie for you. You are still wrong.




That's just it though. There's nothing ambiguous. Just a lot of people who are wrong. The people who actually are from Taiwan, mainland China or HK can all communicate this stuff with 100% accuracy. The only question is the individual's level of literacy. It's only ambiguous if you are speaking English. No need to try and overmystify stuff like that.

---------------------------------------------
skipping past the mountain of vague off-topic political stuff an back to the language issue.....
---------------------------------------------




Yes and in the American south "potatoes" are often called "'taters" but that doesn't make it proper "English" pronounciation. All you are pointing out is that people in Taiwan "talk funny". Why not just go all the way and bring in the dialects? What about Spainish and Italian? Is the phrase "How are you doin?" ambiguous because Mexicans say "Como estas" and Italians say "Como estai"? (I don't know how it's spelledin Italian. Just spelling it like I hear it.)

Yeah. People who speak different languages like Cantonese or Mandarin pronounce things differently. There's a big revelation. :rolleyes: Comparing Taiwanese speakers to PRC speakers is like comparing British speakers to American. Big deal.

And putting little Chinese characters beside every 3rd phrase in your posts is pretentious as hell. Get over yourself. You just do it at random. There's nothing confusing about "guoyupinyin" vs. "hanyupinyin". Get over yourself already.


Yes and not one of them is the least bit confusing. If you actually spoke Chinese you'd know that. Speech gives context. How about "bat". I suppose you often find that ambigiuous as you can never tell if it means something used in baseball, something that flies around at night or something used to take small hits of pot in semi-public areas. :p In context it should be 100% clear. Same with the phoneme "yang"



Wrong again because while "Zhou Runfa" and "Chow Yunfat" are different dialectics' pronounciation for the same 3 characters, 鄭 and 程 are not the same character. It's not traditional vs. simplified. They are just different characters.


Yes I am actually. You OTOH, I feel are more of a dilletante.


Put your reading glasses on and go back and re-read the same page.

1. I already posted that I misread your post and mis-spoke.
2. No. Actually you are just being and idiot. It CAN be pronounced either way, just not in his name. Check the links above on ****graphs for reference.
3. No. I didn't "even know" that you were typing in traditional. I see things first in simplified out of habit. I can read traditional stuff just fine. Writing would be a problem but reading is not.

That's actually your own sidetrack. All this business about preserving traditional characters and whatnot. Completely irrelevant to my points which are:

- the ambiguity you allude to doesn't exist.
- randomly sprinkling your posts with Chinese characters for no apparent reason is really pretentious.
- you mis-read Yang Chengfu's name and won't own up to it.

You are just a hardcore Chinese communist member or supporter who tries to prove his/her patriotism by condemning ROC, Taiwan, KMT or traditional Chinese etc. regardless of what the consequences are.

I am interested to join you in this type of extremist game.

[jack]

lol@


Yes it DOES mean that others can't pronounce his name as Yang Dengfu because that's not his name. The fact that you think multiple entries in a the dictionary for the character means you could go either way with it just highlights your ignorance of how the language works. The English equivalent is called either a heteronymn or a ****graph. Here's some examples:

http://rinkworks.com/words/heteronyms.shtml
http://www.rhlschool.com/eng3n19.htm

For those too lazy to click on the links it's like english, the word "buffet". You can't just swith pronounciations on a whim because the dictionary has 2 of them. The one that means a place to eat and the one that means to get beaten about are distinct and to use one pronounciation in place of the other is just wrong and quite frankly...comical. You can NOT say I was "bufayed" about by the high winds" and be any more correct than going up to the "bufet[/i] for more sausages". Likewise, the creator of the Yang 88 was Yang CHENGfu, like it or not.



Well goodie for you. You are still wrong.




That's just it though. There's nothing ambiguous. Just a lot of people who are wrong. The people who actually are from Taiwan, mainland China or HK can all communicate this stuff with 100% accuracy. The only question is the individual's level of literacy. It's only ambiguous if you are speaking English. No need to try and overmystify stuff like that.

---------------------------------------------
skipping past the mountain of vague off-topic political stuff an back to the language issue.....
---------------------------------------------




Yes and in the American south "potatoes" are often called "'taters" but that doesn't make it proper "English" pronounciation. All you are pointing out is that people in Taiwan "talk funny". Why not just go all the way and bring in the dialects? What about Spainish and Italian? Is the phrase "How are you doin?" ambiguous because Mexicans say "Como estas" and Italians say "Como estai"? (I don't know how it's spelledin Italian. Just spelling it like I hear it.)

Yeah. People who speak different languages like Cantonese or Mandarin pronounce things differently. There's a big revelation. :rolleyes: Comparing Taiwanese speakers to PRC speakers is like comparing British speakers to American. Big deal.

And putting little Chinese characters beside every 3rd phrase in your posts is pretentious as hell. Get over yourself. You just do it at random. There's nothing confusing about "guoyupinyin" vs. "hanyupinyin". Get over yourself already.


Yes and not one of them is the least bit confusing. If you actually spoke Chinese you'd know that. Speech gives context. How about "bat". I suppose you often find that ambigiuous as you can never tell if it means something used in baseball, something that flies around at night or something used to take small hits of pot in semi-public areas. :p In context it should be 100% clear. Same with the phoneme "yang"



Wrong again because while "Zhou Runfa" and "Chow Yunfat" are different dialectics' pronounciation for the same 3 characters, 鄭 and 程 are not the same character. It's not traditional vs. simplified. They are just different characters.


Yes I am actually. You OTOH, I feel are more of a dilletante.


Put your reading glasses on and go back and re-read the same page.

1. I already posted that I misread your post and mis-spoke.
2. No. Actually you are just being and idiot. It CAN be pronounced either way, just not in his name. Check the links above on ****graphs for reference.
3. No. I didn't "even know" that you were typing in traditional. I see things first in simplified out of habit. I can read traditional stuff just fine. Writing would be a problem but reading is not.

That's actually your own sidetrack. All this business about preserving traditional characters and whatnot. Completely irrelevant to my points which are:

- the ambiguity you allude to doesn't exist.
- randomly sprinkling your posts with Chinese characters for no apparent reason is really pretentious.
- you mis-read Yang Chengfu's name and won't own up to it.

You are just a hardcore Chinese communist member or supporter who tries to prove his/her patriotism by condemning ROC, Taiwan, KMT or traditional Chinese etc. regardless of what the consequences are.

I am not interested to join you in this type of extremist game.

[jack]

lol@


Yes it DOES mean that others can't pronounce his name as Yang Dengfu because that's not his name. The fact that you think multiple entries in a the dictionary for the character means you could go either way with it just highlights your ignorance of how the language works. The English equivalent is called either a heteronymn or a ****graph. Here's some examples:

http://rinkworks.com/words/heteronyms.shtml
http://www.rhlschool.com/eng3n19.htm

For those too lazy to click on the links it's like english, the word "buffet". You can't just swith pronounciations on a whim because the dictionary has 2 of them. The one that means a place to eat and the one that means to get beaten about are distinct and to use one pronounciation in place of the other is just wrong and quite frankly...comical. You can NOT say I was "bufayed" about by the high winds" and be any more correct than going up to the "bufet[/i] for more sausages". Likewise, the creator of the Yang 88 was Yang CHENGfu, like it or not.



Well goodie for you. You are still wrong.




That's just it though. There's nothing ambiguous. Just a lot of people who are wrong. The people who actually are from Taiwan, mainland China or HK can all communicate this stuff with 100% accuracy. The only question is the individual's level of literacy. It's only ambiguous if you are speaking English. No need to try and overmystify stuff like that.

---------------------------------------------
skipping past the mountain of vague off-topic political stuff an back to the language issue.....
---------------------------------------------




Yes and in the American south "potatoes" are often called "'taters" but that doesn't make it proper "English" pronounciation. All you are pointing out is that people in Taiwan "talk funny". Why not just go all the way and bring in the dialects? What about Spainish and Italian? Is the phrase "How are you doin?" ambiguous because Mexicans say "Como estas" and Italians say "Como estai"? (I don't know how it's spelledin Italian. Just spelling it like I hear it.)

Yeah. People who speak different languages like Cantonese or Mandarin pronounce things differently. There's a big revelation. :rolleyes: Comparing Taiwanese speakers to PRC speakers is like comparing British speakers to American. Big deal.

And putting little Chinese characters beside every 3rd phrase in your posts is pretentious as hell. Get over yourself. You just do it at random. There's nothing confusing about "guoyupinyin" vs. "hanyupinyin". Get over yourself already.


Yes and not one of them is the least bit confusing. If you actually spoke Chinese you'd know that. Speech gives context. How about "bat". I suppose you often find that ambigiuous as you can never tell if it means something used in baseball, something that flies around at night or something used to take small hits of pot in semi-public areas. :p In context it should be 100% clear. Same with the phoneme "yang"



Wrong again because while "Zhou Runfa" and "Chow Yunfat" are different dialectics' pronounciation for the same 3 characters, 鄭 and 程 are not the same character. It's not traditional vs. simplified. They are just different characters.


Yes I am actually. You OTOH, I feel are more of a dilletante.


Put your reading glasses on and go back and re-read the same page.

1. I already posted that I misread your post and mis-spoke.
2. No. Actually you are just being and idiot. It CAN be pronounced either way, just not in his name. Check the links above on ****graphs for reference.
3. No. I didn't "even know" that you were typing in traditional. I see things first in simplified out of habit. I can read traditional stuff just fine. Writing would be a problem but reading is not.

That's actually your own sidetrack. All this business about preserving traditional characters and whatnot. Completely irrelevant to my points which are:

- the ambiguity you allude to doesn't exist.
- randomly sprinkling your posts with Chinese characters for no apparent reason is really pretentious.
- you mis-read Yang Chengfu's name and won't own up to it.

You are just a hardcore Chinese communist member or supporter who tries to prove his/her patriotism by condemning ROC, Taiwan, KMT or traditional Chinese etc. regardless of what the consequences are.

I am not interested to join you in this type of extremist game.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

It's pretty simple.. the vast majority of posters here rely on english.. to consistently post in another language is disingenuous.. if you know your stuff post it in english.. if not, keep up the games.. Even those that are Chinese do a respectable job of communicating in english.. English is perhaps the most precise language on the planet (in use today).. if you lack the skills to offer concepts in English i certainly question your Chinese.. if there's no direct translation use analogies..

Be well..

[mawali]

jack,

1. Yes Qingzhou is the Chen laojia exponent.

2. To my understanding, present Yang lineage Zhenduo/Chengfu/Zhongwen. Their external characteristics are apparent and deviation is small between them.

3. Who (by name) is a present day Hidden-inner residence/Laojia style master? Now there are many who claim Yang laojia learning but their forms are not even close!

4. How come Zhenduo et al are the present lineage but they do not teach inner residence yang style? It is odd if lineage is the standard of excellence and knowledge!!!!!!!!!

[omarthefish]

You are just a hardcore Chinese communist member or supporter who tries to prove his/her patriotism by condemning ROC, Taiwan, KMT or traditional Chinese etc. regardless of what the consequences are.

I am not interested to join you in this type of extremist game.

lol........

Realized you can't defend your position on the language thing so now your going to try and invalidate my position by making random personal attacks? :D

You can't support those either. Just take your e-ball and go home already.

[omarthefish]

mawali,

I have no idea on 1 and 2 but I can comment on the others.

3. There is plenty of reason for forms to differ as the term "lao jia" in Yang doesn't refer to a specific version like it does in Chen. It just means "before Yang Chengfu". There were already quite a few variations before YCF came along. Yang Luchan's son's all taught somewhat differently and then there is the whole "bagua-taijiquan" that you can read about on chinafromtheinside.com which is also called "Yang Style Laojia 103" as opposed to the "standard" laojia which is usually counted as 108.

It's a catch 22. Some people may complain about all the variation but the answer to that problem is simple: standardization....which has been done. It's called "contemperary wushu". If you force everyone to do it the same then that's what happens.

I know that I have seen other people peforming supposedly the same taiji that I am learning and, yes, it wasn't even close but then again, on at least one occasion my teacher (in Xi'an) had the opportunity to compare notes with a teacher in Taiwan and found they were identitcal so there are continuous lines. Just no standardization.

4. Is Yang Zhengduo from the Yang family? That would answer it for you. The Yang family has been very actively promoting the Yang Chengfu style for many years. Yang Chengfu himself created the form for public distribution and that's what they are doing. I don't know if or why they still hold the complete transmission from Yang Luchan but even if they do, much of that is even to this day not taught to outsiders. Same thing with my own teacher. He teaches and promotes the YCF style to anyone but his laojia is only taught to long term students and not performed publically.

[mawali]

omarthfish,

Thanks. So based on your private laojia training, your teacher was either a student of Li Zheng or Erle Maontague.

Comes back to my point of lineage but how come your teacher is privy to laojia but the Yang family is not? or is it Yang style? Inquiring minds...

[omarthefish]

lol....

I've only got a minute here as I am just sucking back some instant coffe before I head out.

Who said that Yang family isn't privy? The only thing that can be said is that they aren't publically teaching. What's going to take more time than I have right now is to post some lineage. Not MY lineage, just reminding people off all the lines that are out there.

YCF changed the set. He created a new set. Do you really think he just threw out the set that was passed down to him from his grandfather? Nevermind that Yan Luchan had more than one son, taught his son in law and numerous others. ALL of that, an entire generation of people preceded YCF. YCF was NOT the most senior Taiji guy around even when he was teaching at the Nanjing acadamy.

Just for the record, the one I learning, while not the "lao jia 108" is still called "lao jia". It's called "Yang Style Laojia 103 steps" and has nothing to do with the 85 step that YCF created. Comes down from Wu Junshan who was the same generation as Yang Chengfu.

[jack]

Hi, mawali

There are 3 types of chen style taichi now. They are the old structure (luo jia, 老架), new structure (xin jia,新架) & small structure (xiao jiao,小架).

Chen style old structure chen style was considered as the oldest taichi system. This is the system that turned yang luchan into a famous taichi master.

New structure chen style was created based on old structure chen style with certain tough movements being taken out. It goes for a softer approach. Old structure chen style was called old structure after new structure was created. Before that, chen style taichi mean old structure chen style taichi.

Small structure was created based on new structure chen style. Its movements are smaller as comparing to new structure chen style. It was known as zhao bao jia( zhaobao structure,趙保架). The name zhao bao refer to the town zhaobao located next to the chens family village. Small structur’s creator was chen qing ping(陳清萍). He used to teached in town zhao bao, that why is was also known as zhaobao structure.

All other styles of taichi were either directly or indirectly related with these 3 types of chen style taichi.

The yang style of yang luchan was called big structure(da jia,大架). When his sons & descendants took over the teaching, it was being modify with smaller movements. It was named as small structure (xiao jiao,小架).

Besides big & small structures, there is also another structure called middle structure(zhong jia,中 架) too. Ye style taichi is created based on this middle structure.

Inner residence yang style taichi’s movements are similar to yang style big structure. Many present yang style lineage masters & students don’t recognised Inner residence yang style’s history & teaching. They say it’s fake yang style. But I think otherwise.

[omarthefish]

There are 3 types of chen style taichi now. They are the old structure (luo jia, 老架), new structure (xin jia,新架) & small structure (xiao jiao,小架).

I see the Chinese dilletant is still with us pretending he's an authority.

You miss-spelled "lao jia" and this statement is not correct anyways. Xiao Jia is semi synonymous with Xin Jia and both the terms are misnomers anyways. Really there's just different people teaching different flavours.

Secondly for such a Chinese nerd, you should know that "~jia" is generally just called "fram" not "structure". Using the standard commonly accepted English terms avoids confusion.

....Small structure was created based on new structure chen style. Its movements are smaller as comparing to new structure chen style. It was known as zhao bao jia( zhaobao structure,趙保架)....

Completely innacurate. The terms "small frame", "new frame" and "old frame" have nothing to do with Zhao Bao style. Zhaobao is it's own style with it's own history. At what point in history it broke off of or Chen style or just evolved on its own in neighboring Zhaobao village is debateable. Either way, it's been around for far longer than the terms "loa jia" and "xin jia".

The yang style of yang luchan was called big structure(da jia,大架). When his sons & descendants took over the teaching, it was being modify with smaller movements. It was named as small structure (xiao jiao,小架).

Although "lao jia" (old frame) is often used in reference to Yang style， the biggest frame of all in Yang style was Yang Chengfu, fully two generation AFTER Yang Luchan. He actually made much of the movements bigger and more open。

[B-Rad]

Yup. Yang Cheng Fu's form being the "large frame" is pretty much common knowledge among those who've been doing taiji quan for awhile, and I think it's also pretty obvious visually just from looking at the form itself. There's a teacher of "old Yang" style here in Columbus, and he began to teach my class one of the forms he knew. His name for it was something like "application frame" but it's been a long time so I may not be remembering acurately. I remember the techniques were more compacted, and he also talked about it having more follow steping. I've mostly stuck with standardized and Sun style short forms myself, so I don't know much about it.

Jack, what taiji quan branches have you practiced or had contact with? What's your experience?

[B-Rad]

I don't know the names in the lineage, but I think his teacher was an old 90+ year old guy in Taiwan who learned from one of Yang Cheng Fu's older relatives (or maybe a student of this relative).

[mawali]

Yang Chengfu had no older relatives. He had older brothers along with Zhao Bin and Zhongwen.
Why is it that when you ask people for names associated with Old Yang, the names just dry up or do not conform to present reality? Even Erle Montaigue Old Frame looks nothing like Li Zheng's Old Frame. The only authority of substance is to be a student of Li Zheng or a family member because Erle's Old Yang just seesm to be Chengfu with some fajing along with a few lowered postures for austerity.
Just using some real world analysis in determing the real from the false!

[Ron Panunto]

Jack,

You've kind of got things screwed up about Chen style. To begin with, there are really only 2 divisions of Chen, the first being small frame (xiaojia), and the other being large frame (dajia). Small frame was the original or oldest frame of taiji. Zhaobao developed from small frame when a Chen practitioner married and moved to Zhaobao village.

Large frame was a later development. When Chen Fake developed a variatipon of dajia that showed more obvious silk reeling, some practitioners then began referring to Fake's version of dajia as "xinjia" or new frame, and its predecessor as "laojia" or old frame.

Ron

[B-Rad]

He had older brothers along with Zhao Bin and Zhongwen. Brothers, uncles, parents, grandparents... they're all relatives, lol. Sorry if you misunderstood. And I don't have the names because I'm not his student and didn't commit his lineage to memory. The teacher is Dr. Huang here in Columbus. He allowed us to train in his building briefly, and would give me pointers about taiji quan sometimes. He taught a bit of his "old Yang" style when guest teaching as a favor to my teacher one day. When asked directly he did give names clearly though. Maybe one of the Wu Tan people would know more about Dr. Huang's taiji quan lineage, since he was one of Liu Yun Qiao's baji students.

[omarthefish]

Yang Chengfu had no older relatives. He had older brothers along with Zhao Bin and Zhongwen.
Why is it that when you ask people for names associated with Old Yang, the names just dry up or do not conform to present reality? Even Erle Montaigue Old Frame looks nothing like Li Zheng's Old Frame. The only authority of substance is to be a student of Li Zheng or a family member because Erle's Old Yang just seesm to be Chengfu with some fajing along with a few lowered postures for austerity.
Just using some real world analysis in determing the real from the false!

Sorry to come in here and yet again complain I don't have time but it is WAY past my bedtime. I just picked up the 5th season of "24" and got hooked in right up untill now. It's already 1:30 am. *grrrr*

Anyways, tommorow, I'll take some time out to read up on the links but .. . .

This is what google gives you for "Yang Style lao jia" in Chinese:

http://www.google.com/search?q=%E6%9D%A8%E5%BC%8F%E8%80%81%E6%9E%B6&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

That's 276 hits.

For "Yang Style 108 steps"， the more common name for it, you get 640,000 hits:

http://www.google.com/search?q=%E6%9D%A8%E5%BC%8F108&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

"Yang Style 108 steps" is another name for Yang Style Lao Jia. Point being, the lao jia is no secret. I'll try and post some names tommorow but the short answer is that "lao jia" in most cases (in terms of google hits) refers to Yang Chengfu's 85 (or 88) step version as contrasted to either the Beijing 24 or the national standardized versoin of YCF's form. If you want to specifically look for pre-Yang Chengfu, in other words, the Yang Luchan form, you have to search for the 108 to avoid confusion as "lao jia"........ready for this....is ambiguous. (just not due to language problems). The 108 gives you 640,000 hits. It's a WIDELY known form and can also be called "lao jia" but as "lao" simply means "old" there is no way to clearly differentiate it from the "old" Yang Chengfu form (in comparison to the standardized version for competition) and the "old" frame coming from Yang Luchan.

Actually, all of these questions are discussed at length on the Chinese google hits that I linked. I'll go over it tommorow and attempt to provide some names.

[mawali]

omarthefish,

My expeience has been different regardign differentiation of Yang taijiquan!
The modern forms are called wushutaijiquan or Beijing shi taijiquan (24, 40, 42, 48, etc) as compared to the version of Zhongwen, Zhanduo, etc who follow the Chengfu frame.
Never has those been called laojia. Usually Old Yang refers to the form/frame of Luchan!

Personally Old Yang is an attempt at marketing a secret style, which is nonexistant since the transformation of tai chi has been a way to keep it current so it has to change according to taste and each choose the flavour they want-no better nor worse! No ambiguity here!

Thanks for the links!

[omarthefish]

Never has those been called laojia. Usually Old Yang refers to the form/frame of Luchan!


That's what I thought before that last post but I googled it just to make sure and what do oyu know.....

http://www.google.com/search?q=%E6%9D%A8%E5%BC%8F%E8%80%81%E6%9E%B6&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

That's the results for "old frame yang style" in Chinese and while many of the hits refer to "the original frame from Yang Luchan" an equally large number refer to the 85 step from YCF which is definately "old" when compared to the Beijing shi taijiquan (24, 40, 42, 48, etc) which were created in the 50's. The 85 step was created ...30's I think. Can't give the exact date from memory but it's republican era.

Personally Old Yang is an attempt at marketing a secret style, which is nonexistant....

If that's the case, how do you explain these VCD's with demos of the 108, AKA "old Yang":

http://www.kungfu.com.hk/mall-1.asp?offset=250&txtProductID=VCD-YangTaichi-0030

It's obviously not secret but it IS "old frame". It's fidelity to the original frame of Yang Luchan is of course highly suspect and in that sense you are right but that does not mean that there is no old frame. Even if it has evovled and changed over the generations how would YOU then refer to the 108?

What do you make of this lineage chart published in this months "Wulin" in Guangzhou which documents the lineage all the way down today for another "Old Yang", this time, the 103, which is, in fact, a "secret" transmission? Wether or not it comes from Yang Luchan is debatable but there is no doubt that it originated before Yang Chengfu's time and is a radically different form from the YCF form.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/17497713@N00/170311552/in/set-72157594170400582/

There's a little link towards the top of the image to make it big enough to read. Yang Chengfu is nowhere on the chart as this style is believed to have come down mainly from some Liu Dekuan (a direct student of Yang Luchan's) and from Xia Guoxun (Yang Luchan's son in law).

I didn't put the English names on the chart but by the 4th generation on the chart we already have the Zhang Xiangwu, Jiang Xinshan, Guo Zhushan and Zhaofulin lines all still around today.

Many of those lines call it "bagua-taiji" but Zhang Xiangwu insisted on calling it simply "Yang Style Old Frame 103".

Either way, my point is that we can't just say that "old frame" yang style doesn't exist just becuase what the name points to isn't what we think, in theory, the name should point to. Evovled and changed over the years or not 7,960 google hits say it exists.

[RAF]

Although I have met Dr. Hwang of Colombus several times, his Yang's taiji has never come up. However, I did hear from others that he knew Liu's material but what you refer to as the old Yang's taiji was Yang Chien Hou's middle frame and that is what I have heard he teaches. Keep in mind that I haven't heard this directly from him but someone who studied with him before.

[jack]

Jack,

You've kind of got things screwed up about Chen style. To begin with, there are really only 2 divisions of Chen, the first being small frame (xiaojia), and the other being large frame (dajia). Small frame was the original or oldest frame of taiji. Zhaobao developed from small frame when a Chen practitioner married and moved to Zhaobao village.

Large frame was a later development. When Chen Fake developed a variatipon of dajia that showed more obvious silk reeling, some practitioners then began referring to Fake's version of dajia as "xinjia" or new frame, and its predecessor as "laojia" or old frame.

Ron

Hi, Ron. I think you get it all wrong. This is chen taichi link which could support my story. But it is in chinese.:)

http://www.taichi.org.tw/Circulation/chenstyle.htm

[tjqg]

Chen style classes seem to be the only ones you can count on to have martial applications in them. I have seen no other Taijiquan that is so consistent across the country. Just as Chen usually has fighters Yang style usually doesn't. Worldwide it might be different but here in North America thats the way it seems to me.

I teach Yang style btw.


I don't think you can count on any style of Tai Chi when facing a robber.
Tai Chi was one of the most effective martial arts in the past, but masters at that time had to work very hard every day, and not only forms and tuishou, they had to stand still for hours, roll heavy vats and really fight, and most grand tai chi masters studied other martial arts prior to Tai Chi.
nowadays we attend a Tai Chi class once a week, have a good time with an instructor who never really fight, how can you fight a bravo who are trained to kill people?

[mawali]

The Yang style lineage per the present inheritors but it is as it is.

Many people were left off so enjoy:

http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/info/images/familytree.jpg

one source only!

[omarthefish]

Hi, Ron. I think you get it all wrong. This is chen taichi link which could support my story. But it is in chinese.:)

http://www.taichi.org.tw/Circulation/chenstyle.htm

He [Jack] is just quoting practically verbatum this bit here:

. . .陳清萍所傳者為新架之小架，簡稱小架，又稱趙堡架，此套拳路是從新架變化出來，且更為緊湊。

Bolded where it says, "more simply called 'new frame' or also 'zhaobao frame'.

But the problem is that this theory is completely unsupported and would come as a GREAT surprise to all the Zhaobao practictioners here in Xi'an, of which there are quite a few. Zhaobao, while it almost certainly shares a historical connection with Chen style, is VERY distinct from Xinjia. There is some xin jia here in Xi'an too. A guy over in Xinxing park is supposed to be quite good at it. Master Li Suicheng is probably the top Zhaobai guy around and I have seen his class over in the park on the south side of town that just went up about a year ago. It looks nothing like Chen style except in that it is obviously Taijiquan. Many Zhaobao people also refer to their style as "He" style if they are from a certain branch.

I'm afraid the consensus, and that's how words are defined, by consensus, is pretty much what Ron posted back there. I thought this was common knowledge in Taiji circles.

[jack]

Hi, Ron

Besides old frame, new frame & small frame. There is still another chen style taichi frame call Hu Lei frame(忽雷架,sudden thunder frame). It created based on small frame.

Its creator was Li JingYan (李景延), also from the zhao bao town. His teacher was Chen Qing Ping.

Besides checking from the traditional Chinese websites, you may check from the simplified Chinese websites too. Compare them.

:)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Then there's the Hong Practical Style.. just to muddy the water..

It's a little humorous, watching people try to define or resolve the ambiguities of words.. with more words..

Be well..

[omarthefish]

Gotta agree with that.

I'm backing off on this thread. I made my points and don't feel like arguing.

Hulei is generally considered a variant on Zhaobao just like "He Shi". Trying to call it a Chen subtype is just a political thing. Chen people pushing their agenda.

[jack]

Why not let ask the kungfu magazine to do a research story on chen style taichi? since they are in this line.

Another link for you all:

http://home.pchome.com.tw/service/saulinmca/taichistory.htm#太%20極%20演%20變

[omarthefish]

lolololololooll.....

I hope that wasn' t directed at me. *groan*

Dude, I do not gp to KFO for research, I go to China. Check the local. Get my info on Chen from other people who are doing that. I get my info on He style and Zhaobao from the He and Zhaobao teachers that a magazine like this one interviews. In other words, why look to a magazine or a website reference when you can go to the source?

btw, you in Taiwan or something? Because you keep linking Taiwanese website references.

[jack]

Have you read the taiji essays wrote by a famous mainland MA researcher, Kang Ge Wu 康戈武?

[ 太极拳发展的成形时期
　
综合笔者目前看到的考证材料，明末清初时期是太极拳发展的成形时期。明洪武七年从山西洪洞迁至河南温县陈家 沟（时名“常阳村”）的陈氏一族，精习武术。传八世到了明祟祯至清康熙年间时，第九世的陈王廷（1600－ 1680）文武兼备。当时，经明代戚继光（1528－1587）和程冲斗（1561－？）等著名武术家规范 提倡的武术套路运动形式已经成为各家拳法传播的重要形式，并且出现了将导引和吐纳术渗入武术锻炼的趋势。连 少林寺武僧也于此时开始兼习“易筋经”强身功法，出现了“始有内外交修之旨，身心两修之功”的少林拳体系（ 见1915年版《少林拳术秘诀》）。陈王廷顺应这一趋势，为了“教下些弟子儿孙，成龙成虎任方便”（见陈王 廷遗词《长短句》），于晚年着手创编拳架。据《陈氏拳械谱》，陈王廷所造拳架共7套，包括有太极拳（一名十 三势）五路、长拳一百八势一路、炮捶一路。在陈王廷所造拳架中，有29势同于戚继光综合古今十六家拳法编成 的《拳经》三十二势拳套。此外，在《陈氏拳械谱》中，还有“红拳”、“盘罗棒”等谱，以及“古刹登出少林寺 ”这样的词语，说明陈王廷是在总结民间和军队中流行拳法的基础上，取众家之长编创出太极拳早期拳 架的。]

[太极拳发展的成熟时期
　
清朝中叶，太极拳走完了它的幼稚期，进入了成熟期。这一时期的代表人物有陈氏十四世的陈长兴（1771—1 853）、陈有本，长兴之徒——永年人杨露禅（1799—1872）、有本之徒——陈氏十五世陈青萍（17 95—1868），还有兼得杨露禅和陈青萍之传的永年人武禹襄（1812—1880）。太极拳进入成熟期的 特征主要表现在三个方面。
　
其一、出现了突出健身功能的拳架。陈王廷创编的七套拳架，经五传至陈长兴、陈有本时，原来一百零八势的长拳 和太极拳（一名十三势）第二路至第五路，在陈家沟已很少有人练习，陈氏拳家已经由博返约，专精于太极拳第一 路和炮捶（现称陈式太极拳第二路）。大约道光咸丰年间（1821—1861），为了适应保健的需要和不同学 习对象的练习需要，陈有本去掉老架中的某些难度动作，编成陈氏新架太极拳。这套拳架与陈氏老架没有本质的区 别，主要区别在于老架拳弧形绕转的圈较大，新架拳圈较小。故也称老架为大圈拳，称新架为小圈拳。有本的弟子 、族侄陈青萍，又在有本所传拳架的基础上创造了两套架式。其中一套小巧紧凑，动作缓慢，练会后逐步加圈；由 简入繁，逐步提高技巧。另一套，注重技击，常在周身一起转圈的过程中突然发劲，劲快而猛烈，有似旱天炸雷。 前者，青萍传于陈家沟北邻的赵堡镇，人称赵堡架。后者流传于陈家沟东邻的王圪村，人称“圪颤架”，或称 “忽雷架”。]

[imperialtaichi]

I don't think you can count on any style of Tai Chi when facing a robber... nowadays we attend a Tai Chi class once a week, have a good time with an instructor who never really fight, how can you fight a bravo who are trained to kill people?



Hello Tjqg,

In a way you are right... but it is not the Tai Chi that's the problem, it is the fact that people are not willing to work on it, and a lot of instructors lacks the knowledge and know how. If you substitute with another art, but still only train once a week, and the instructor is incompetant, no matter what you train you will still be in effective.

I can assure you, if my more dedicated Tai Chi students are faced with armed attackers, they will do OK. I also have students who are very experienced fighters who are now training in Tai Chi because they see it as more effective than anything they have trained before. You cannot say you can't count on any style of Tai Chi.

Cheers,
John

[omarthefish]

Have you read the taiji essays wrote by a famous mainland MA researcher, Kang Ge Wu 康戈武?


I'll answer the question if you explain what your point is with the article quoted.

This is not a Chinese forum and I am not going to discuss this with you in Chinese.