Choy Lee Fut Misprint in Wikipedia?

[HSCLFCPA]

Who writes the Choy Lay Fut section under the topic Kung Fu in Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia?

On the first page, the site mentions that there are 3 branches of Choy Lay Fut and yet it names 4: 1) Hung Sing (HS) lineage of the Chan Family; 2) HS lineage of Chan Cheong Mo; 3) HS lineage of Cheung Yim; and 4) Buk Sing lineage of Tarm Sarm.

[hskwarrior]

Yeah I agree.

However, typically the main famillies are CHan, Hung Sing and Buk Sing. Still, Chan Koon Pak was the one who started using the Hung Sing (strong victory), and his disciples kept using that name.

since he is chan heung's son he got lumped up in the family clf, however, it thought that Jeong Yim may have been the one to teach gung fu to Koon Pak, who intitially didn't want to learn kung fu, he wanted to become a merchant in Kong Moon.

Still, i agree, there really is 4 families of CLF, but again koon pak got lumped up with his fathers group.

If he learned from his father, then his school should have been called Hung Xiong (great sage hung sing) not something more on the lines with Jeong Yim's CLF.

[hskwarrior]

but i will tell you this.......

it's people from the Plum blossom federation. DFW's people.

[Fu-Pow]

however, it thought that Jeong Yim may have been the one to teach gung fu to Koon Pak, who intitially didn't want to learn kung fu, he wanted to become a merchant in Kong Moon.

CLF.

Yeah, I could see Koon Pak learning from Jeong Yim instead of his own father. That makes perfect sense.

[Eddie]

actually, it does....

I dont teach my own son. He doesnt listen to me :). My student does :cool:



ok, my son is only 5 and has that stubborn german blood, but it might be the same

[hskwarrior]

fu pow's a dummy eddie, ignore him.

My sifu's son has never learned gung fu from his father. My sifu tried to teach them but they weren't interested.

according to chan yong fa's account of chan heung and so on, it says that Koon Pak didn't want to learn gung fu AT ALL.

but fu pow, you are even ignorant on the history of the very branch you jock.

you sucka

[CLFNole]

I have heard that after Chan Hueng passed away that Chan Koon Pak may have followed Jeong Yim. Not sure if it is true or not but I have heard it even in my own lineage.

But honestly, who cares :confused:

[Eddie]

hskwarrior, fu pow is my kung fu brother, and I concider him an online friend. I'm not really interested in your fight, I like you both. I didnt say that to go against him really, was just chipping in.

What would these forums be without Fu Pow and HSKWarrior ;)

[chasincharpchui]

hskwarrior, fu pow is my kung fu brother, and I concider him an online friend. I'm not really interested in your fight, I like you both. I didnt say that to go against him really, was just chipping in.

What would these forums be without Fu Pow and HSKWarrior ;)

eddie u sure fu-pow sees u as that aswell? a kungfu brother, and online friend?

coz fu-pow got real anal bout it last time wen someone called him that haha

[hskwarrior]

i agree. he stands alone here.

[Eddie]

eddie u sure fu-pow sees u as that aswell? a kungfu brother, and online friend?

coz fu-pow got real anal bout it last time wen someone called him that haha

who cares. I still see him like that, just as I see HSKWarrior as the same.

Yesterday I got the news that one of my friends and a business partner passed away (at age 24 only). Life seem to be short these days

[Fu-Pow]

I have heard that after Chan Hueng passed away that Chan Koon Pak may have followed Jeong Yim. Not sure if it is true or not but I have heard it even in my own lineage.

But honestly, who cares :confused:


If its true that actually kind of makes sense but the way hskpreacher spins it Chan Koon Pak chose to learn from Jeong Yim over his own father.

[Fu-Pow]

eddie u sure fu-pow sees u as that aswell? a kungfu brother, and online friend?

coz fu-pow got real anal bout it last time wen someone called him that haha

Sorry, who are you again? I must have missed it the first time I asked you.

[Fu-Pow]

eddie u sure fu-pow sees u as that aswell? a kungfu brother, and online friend?

coz fu-pow got real anal bout it last time wen someone called him that haha


For the record I do see Eddie as my friend. We don't agree on everything but somehow I know that Eddie is a good guy. I even had my Sifu send him a personal invitiation to our tournament last year....not sure he ever got it though.

One thing that you need to learn Frank is that respect gets respect.

If you show me respect I'll show you 2x respect back. If you disrespect me I'll show you 2x disrespect back.

Its like my Sifu taught me somebody hits you, you hit them back twice as hard.

[Ben Gash]

Fu Pow, your PM box is full.

[Fu-Pow]

Taken care of.

[Eddie]

hi fu pow, i never got that invite, but thats the way of our postal system tho. if ever u need my address, you can check out site choylayfut.co.za

we are going way of topic now.

wikipedia is cool. you can find all sorts of cool info on there. Like this, which is almost fitting to this conversation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_moon_landing_hoax_accusations :cool:

[hskwarrior]

you spin it off as if i said Chan Koon Pak chose to learn from Jeong Yim.

I stated Chan Koon Pak did not learn from his father, maybe not initially( i wasn't there) but according to chan yong fa's translation.......Koon Pak did not want to learn gung fu. gung fu wasn't his thing. just like many kids these days, they wouldn't want to learn from dad.

you are just mad that it didn't come from you.

unlike you, i still research Choy Lee Fut history as much as i can.

eddie, you can view fu pow as you like. i never have a problem with you. we're cool. regardless if you disagree with how i'm treating fu pow. see...... the key word is treating. he gets treated as he treats others.

[hskwarrior]

you've shown me respect.....never. you've been against me from the start.

others here like eddie show me respect, even clfnole at times, but people like you get treated how you treat me.

treat me with respect and you get some in return. you talk smack to me you get smack talked right back.

i've got 15 years or more over you in CLF, and that means more experience.

show some respect and you will get it in return.

but you ain't listenin'.:confused:

[Fu-Pow]

you've shown me respect.....never. you've been against me from the start.

others here like eddie show me respect, even clfnole at times, but people like you get treated how you treat me.

More likely, they put up with you.




treat me with respect and you get some in return. you talk smack to me you get smack talked right back.

i've got 15 years or more over you in CLF, and that means more experience.

show some respect and you will get it in return.

but you ain't listenin'.:confused:

Frankly, I've had enough of your antics Frank and I think other people have had enough of this bickering. There is a proposal going around that we all put you on ignore list and invite others to do the same.

Nice knowin' ya.

FP

[hskwarrior]

haha.....you lost.

[Ben Gash]

Did somebody just say something?;)

[hskwarrior]

not to you.

[Fu-Pow]

I don't know but I keep seeing this message:

This message is hidden because hskwarrior is on your ignore list.

What do you think it means? :confused:

[hskwarrior]

it means you poosied out.

not very choy lee fut.

[hskwarrior]

but this means i don't have to hear from that knuckle head from now on!?!?!?!?!?!?!


let's party.

[hskwarrior]

to ben gash.......


GOOOOOOOOOOOD BYEEEE AND GOOOOOOD RIDDENS.

SUCKA.

[Ben Gash]

I don't know, maybe if you ignore them they'll just go away ;)

[hskwarrior]

no way we wont go away.

bunch of sissies.

that was weak how fu pow punked out like that.

[htowndragon]

hey frank

when the hell is your book coming out

[chasincharpchui]

Sorry, who are you again? I must have missed it the first time I asked you.

wow uve replyed to my posts, ive been waiting for it

hows bout replying to my other posts

im jordan and i do buck sing choy lay fut

[Fu-Pow]

This message is hidden because chasincharpchui is on your ignore list.

[hskwarrior]

anyways,

if anyone's open for discussion........

this is a section on Koon Pak based on Chan Family records found on wikipedia:


Chan Koon Pak 1857-1916

Chan Koon Pak was the second son of Chan Heung , founder of Choy Li Fut Kung Fu. After his elderly brother Chan On Pak passed away, he carried on the banner of the system. In the beginning, Chan Koon Pak wanted to become a merchant in the city of Kong Moon (modern day Jiang Men). His friends and family members persuaded him to teach the system of Choy Li Fut founder by his father. Under the constant pressure and encouragement, in 1898 he finally took the position to be the chief instructor of the Hung Sing School of Jiang Men at the Wong clan family temple opened by Chan Cheong Mo. He produced many out standing students in Jiang Men before he moved to Canton in 1906 (today known as Guangzhou). He appointed Chan Cheong Mo to take over the Hung Sing School in Jiang Men.

In Canton, many well-known local kung fu masters requested Chan Koon Pak accept them as students. He opened the Choy Li Fut School in Canton. When he decided to retire, his son Chan Yiu Chi continued to teach in Canton.


now this is in regards to whom Chan Kwoon Pak learned Choy Lee Fut from. According the Chan records, and as i've commented before the (see above highlighted areas) Koon Pak may have learned from Jeong Hung Sing.

Now, Koon Pak was born in 1857, but never learned gung fu from his father, moved to Kong Moon to become a merchant. So, his father (chan heung) passed away in 1875 when Koon Pak was only 18 years old. In saying this, Koon Pak NEVER learned CLF from his father.

However, in 1898 after the constant pressure to open a school in his fathers honor.....he still had to learn CLF from somewhere. Once again, according to Chan Records Jeong Yim was assigned to take care of Koon Pak. So Koon Pak could have and actually may have learned Jeong Yim's CLF, and that is why his schools "Hung Sing" or Heroic Victory is more similar to Jeong Yim's Hung Sing, which i believe was originally Jeong Yim's Hung Sing but Koon Pak changed their name to disassociate itself from Jeong Yim's school which was known to be heavily involved with the Hung Mun. (in their ---the chan clan----records Koon pak changed the name because of Lee Yan's connection to the underworld.

Therefore, If Chan Koon Pak never learned from his father.......shouldn't he be placed under the one who taght him as opposed to being placed under his father---whom he never learned gung fu from?

what do you guys think about this.

[Ben Gash]

Chinese custom dictates that on lineage charts you are placed beneath your father (if he did kung fu of course). This is why Chen Yong Fa is shown as being his father's descendent when he learned from his grandfather.

[hskwarrior]

how is this man choosing to ignore me yet he's answering my post?

now is that contradiction for ya or what?

okay, mr gash............

however, Koon Pak never learned his from his father. and "who" actually taught him is up in the air.

I understand bloodline theories, but Chan Heung was not his sifu. He learned someone else's CLF. Remember Chan Family taught their blood line the true CLF and passed down watered down stuff (maybe).

So, with no more blood relations to teach him he's stepped off the family line and learned something else.

is it the bloodline that keeps him in place or what?

[hskwarrior]

i know this is all empty,

but if Koon Pak never learned from his father, but somewhere down the line he was taught something.........then possibly Chan Family CLF is not the real stuff passed down from chan Heung.

His other disciples may have taught what chan heung taught, but what about Koon Pak's line...including Chan Yiu Chi?

[Fu-Pow]

Chinese custom dictates that on lineage charts you are placed beneath your father (if he did kung fu of course). This is why Chen Yong Fa is shown as being his father's descendent when he learned from his grandfather.

Interesting, I did not know that.

[hskwarrior]

you are only speaking of bloodline.

with Koon Pak in the bloodline it changes the direction in Chan Heung's CLF.

[VStanmore]

anyways,

if anyone's open for discussion........

this is a section on Koon Pak based on Chan Family records found on wikipedia:


Chan Koon Pak 1857-1916

Chan Koon Pak was the second son of Chan Heung , founder of Choy Li Fut Kung Fu. After his elderly brother Chan On Pak passed away, he carried on the banner of the system. In the beginning, Chan Koon Pak wanted to become a merchant in the city of Kong Moon (modern day Jiang Men). His friends and family members persuaded him to teach the system of Choy Li Fut founder by his father. Under the constant pressure and encouragement, in 1898 he finally took the position to be the chief instructor of the Hung Sing School of Jiang Men at the Wong clan family temple opened by Chan Cheong Mo. He produced many out standing students in Jiang Men before he moved to Canton in 1906 (today known as Guangzhou). He appointed Chan Cheong Mo to take over the Hung Sing School in Jiang Men.

In Canton, many well-known local kung fu masters requested Chan Koon Pak accept them as students. He opened the Choy Li Fut School in Canton. When he decided to retire, his son Chan Yiu Chi continued to teach in Canton.


now this is in regards to whom Chan Kwoon Pak learned Choy Lee Fut from. According the Chan records, and as i've commented before the (see above highlighted areas) Koon Pak may have learned from Jeong Hung Sing.

Now, Koon Pak was born in 1857, but never learned gung fu from his father, moved to Kong Moon to become a merchant. So, his father (chan heung) passed away in 1875 when Koon Pak was only 18 years old. In saying this, Koon Pak NEVER learned CLF from his father.

However, in 1898 after the constant pressure to open a school in his fathers honor.....he still had to learn CLF from somewhere. Once again, according to Chan Records Jeong Yim was assigned to take care of Koon Pak. So Koon Pak could have and actually may have learned Jeong Yim's CLF, and that is why his schools "Hung Sing" or Heroic Victory is more similar to Jeong Yim's Hung Sing, which i believe was originally Jeong Yim's Hung Sing but Koon Pak changed their name to disassociate itself from Jeong Yim's school which was known to be heavily involved with the Hung Mun. (in their ---the chan clan----records Koon pak changed the name because of Lee Yan's connection to the underworld.

Therefore, If Chan Koon Pak never learned from his father.......shouldn't he be placed under the one who taght him as opposed to being placed under his father---whom he never learned gung fu from?

what do you guys think about this.

I don't see where it says Koon pak did not learn kung fu from his father.

I don't see where it says jeong yim was assigned to take care of koon pak.

Where did you get this?

[iron_silk]

I don't see where it says Koon pak did not learn kung fu from his father.

I don't see where it says jeong yim was assigned to take care of koon pak.

Where did you get this?

Yeah Frank...even if Chan Heung died when Chan Koon Pak was 18 there would be sufficient time.

[hskwarrior]

I don't feel I have to answer anyone that is only asking me a question to try and prove me wrong.

If you do the research then you would understand what i'm talking about.

but i will try to copy some text from their info.

[hskwarrior]

Taken from DFW's Website.

Chan Koon Pak (1857-1916) was the second son of Chan Heung , founder of Choy Li Fut Kung Fu . After his elderly brother Chan On Pak passed away, he carried on the banner of the system. In the beginning, Chan Koon Pak wanted to become a merchant in the city of Kong Moon (modern day Jiang Men).

[VStanmore]

Taken from DFW's Website.

Chan Koon Pak (1857-1916) was the second son of Chan Heung , founder of Choy Li Fut Kung Fu . After his elderly brother Chan On Pak passed away, he carried on the banner of the system. In the beginning, Chan Koon Pak wanted to become a merchant in the city of Kong Moon (modern day Jiang Men).

I still don't see where it says koon pak did not learn kung fu from his father.

If someone wants to become an engineer, does that mean he could not have learnt kung fu?

Where is the chan records that said jeong yim was assigned to take care of koon pak?

Where is the chan records that say koon pak did not learn kung fu from his father?

You gave only a quote from an internet website and it still didn't say koon pak did not learn kungfu from his father. Being a merchant doesn't mean you could not have learnt kung fu. Wong fei hung was said to be a doctor, so does that mean he could not have learnt kung fu from his father?

What are these chan records? Where did you access them and do you have a copy?

Can you post the original chinese of chan records? Can you read chinese?

[VStanmore]

Here is a quote (also from an internet website) from an article:

"Chan Heung put considerable emphasis on power training, which is essential in jong techniques because one must have a strong and solid stance and tough limbs. It is not an easy task to send a heavy sandbag flying or to smash a solid piece of timber with a heavy weight attached swing from end-to-end like a yo-yo.

Chan Heung’s son, Chan Koon-Pak, also made jong techniques one of his specialities and received full instructions from his father. While teaching in Guangzhou, Koon-Pak was approached by Choy Kwai-Yuan and his two sons to teach them the wooden dummy techniques. They had the space required for installing the various jongs in their home. Chan Koon Pak accepted their request and gave them the specifications to construct the jongs."

The article can be found here:
http://www.tai-chi-centre.com/woodendummies.htm

[hskwarrior]

actually after you introduce yourself, then maybe i will go further.

My conversation was with those i know. you i don't know and don't know what your purpose of jumping in on this conversation. I don't even know if you do CLF.

so until you introduce yourself..i'll keep my mouth shut for the moment.

[hskwarrior]

You seem to have a lot of proding questions for me.

however, i refuse to argue about CLF with someone i am not even sure does CLF.

IF you do CLF, then what is your stake in questioning me the way you are?

I've never met you before, and the same goes for you.

Spit it out.

and by the way, do you have any Chan Family records to refer to to see if i am bs'ing?

but for you info, I have written each branches history based on the available info out there from CHan Yong Fa's account, to DFW's account, and Fu Hang Ng's.

It is possible i made a mistake or even it could have been my own misunderstanding. But as i said, i have emailed the Fu Hang Ng school and am waiting for their responce.

peace.

[hskwarrior]

Check this one out,

and then you can respond to this.

http://members-central.optushome.com.au/meanstreets/clf/clfkhint.htm

[Green Cloud]

hey Frank how are ya bra, That was an interesting read and obviously comes from Chan Yun fa's Camp. Unfortunatly there is no evidence to back up this claim and is definatly desighned to pump CYF's lineage, since he claims to be the keeper of the system.

What a bunch of crap, everyone knows who ever follows the traditions is the keeper of the style.

[iron_silk]

You always seem to be turning defensive whenever someone come up with points you simply have no answer for...this is definitely a pattern with you.

If you don't want to discuss it with these guys you don't know then don't...but this constant half answer, half ignoring......doesn't really help your case....seems a tad immature or simply out of answer when the heat is up.

This is getting predictable. It sucks that when it comes time for you to step up and support your points you find any excuse to demean the person by claiming they are not worth your time. That is weak!!!

[VStanmore]

Check this one out,

and then you can respond to this.

http://members-central.optushome.com.au/meanstreets/clf/clfkhint.htm
I don't see much value in the link you posted. Seems like nothing more than biased heresay with no evidence.

Sounds ridiculous the way it puts chan heung is not a kung fu master but a scholar. How could chan heung not be a kung fu master if he spent more than 20 yrs gathering and refining his skills. Longer than jeong yim did with his teachers.

How could all "followers of tradition" be keeper of the style if not all of them received the complete contents of the style in the first place? Ridiculous.

If Jeong yim is founder of clf, then how come his branch does not have all the deep internal clf and elaborate complex wooden dummy techniques?

[iron_silk]

hey Frank how are ya bra, That was an interesting read and obviously comes from Chan Yun fa's Camp. Unfortunatly there is no evidence to back up this claim and is definatly desighned to pump CYF's lineage, since he claims to be the keeper of the system.

What a bunch of crap, everyone knows who ever follows the traditions is the keeper of the style.

Green Cloud,

Remember Frank is a friend of Chen Yong Fa I believe. Also Chen Yong Fa never claimed that title on his students have. Furthermore if he did claim it, it is only to the Chan Family lineage of which he is the direct male descentant and bound by tradition is only rightfully named as keeper.

Though ultimately he himself has not claimed it.

[hskwarrior]

to tell you the truth.........

i've seen some of the wooden dumm sets, and other wooden dummy sets out the and in the 25 years or so of my CLF training, i haven't seen ANYTHING that was so intricate, out of the ordinary, or complex as you claim CLF dummies to be.

and iron silk, i've been decent with you up until now. but when you start making false claims that i am friends with Chan Yong Fa, thats when i have to put you in check. Don't put my name in your mouth unless you know of what you are talking about. THere are more CLF elders that know about me than you. so don't be a hater.

if you have something to say, then speak up little biatch.

[hskwarrior]

Gus,

what the EFF are you talking about?

Now you are jumping on their band wagon?

what keeper of what style?

do you realize that Chan Yong Fa is not the keeper of the style. Someone in CHina by the name of Sun is said to be the keeper of the style.

how can there be so many keepers of one style?

[hskwarrior]

I quit this boring arse forum,

when most of you read something, and the names of the people who were interviewed were printed at the top, then for you dumb arse's to bring in CHan Yong fa's name into this is rediculous. you have no clue.

so are all you fools telling me that Kong Hin is a Chan Yong Fa disciple?

[hskwarrior]

were any of you there to prove first hand that Chan Heung was a gung fu man and not a scholar?

IF all you have on Chan Heung is based off of CHan Family writings, then keep it in the chan family. there are two other well known famous branches to focus on here.

Don't dispute me, if you have the balls big enough, dispute Kong Hing, however i don't think either of you will ever raise an eyebrow when it comes to him. i believe you ALL will tuck your tails and run after trying to dispute him.

The chan Family doesn't have anyone living who is almost literally 100 years old.

however, there are two buk sing people one in canada and one in china (almost 100 years old) still living that in reality are buk sing people but were hung sing people when training under Tam Sam. They actually lived thru much of the history, and they have a very different story to tell when it comes to CLF.

but don't worry stick to the chan side of things, i feel most of you are better off that way. ignorance is bliss.

[hskwarrior]

iron silk,

i purposely don't get involved too much when it comes to the chan side of things.

chan family supporters are so blind to see what's around them i'll let them stay blind.

everyone on the chan side of things dispute Jeong Yim and what he has done for CLF. Why do you think everytime some Hung Sing stuff comes up, people like joseph, iron silk and so on say "no, let's talk about Chan Heung and his 8 internal bagua forms.

any one in their own organization can come up with new things to practice. just as the way Chan Heung did, his lineage did, and so on. If you guys think Chan Heung came up with every single thing the chan family does, and Chan Yong Fa, Chan Yiu Chi, or whoever never added in things to take the system further than i think you guys are great chan family supporters. keep up the good work.

let the Hung Sing People who know about their own founder tell the story and stop trying to obscure Jeong Yim's history with that of CHan Heung's.

[VStanmore]

Taken from DFW's Website.

Chan Koon Pak (1857-1916) was the second son of Chan Heung , founder of Choy Li Fut Kung Fu . After his elderly brother Chan On Pak passed away, he carried on the banner of the system. In the beginning, Chan Koon Pak wanted to become a merchant in the city of Kong Moon (modern day Jiang Men).

I still don't see where it says koon pak did not learn kung fu from his father.

If someone wants to become an engineer, does that mean he could not have learnt kung fu?

Where is the chan records that said jeong yim was assigned to take care of koon pak?

Where is the chan records that say koon pak did not learn kung fu from his father?

You gave only a quote from an internet website and it still didn't say koon pak did not learn kungfu from his father. Being a merchant doesn't mean you could not have learnt kung fu. Wong fei hung was said to be a doctor, so does that mean he could not have learnt kung fu from his father?

What are these chan records? Where did you access them and do you have a copy?

Can you post the original chinese of chan records? Can you read chinese?

You also said you have seen some of the dummy sets. What were the wooden dummy sets you saw and where did you see them? Do you have links to videoclips of the sets you saw? Who performed them? I don't think they are widely known in the states.

[hskwarrior]

http://www.3famclflinks.zoomshare.com

as well on a chan yong fa site where bak mo was performed, the dummy set, a fan set.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1s7bz6vD5A

[VStanmore]

Is that all you've seen? So the only dummy sets you have seen are the ones released on the vcds? Did you see anyone of the dummy sets in real life and not just on video?

What about the breaking hand dummy, the horse dummy, the penetrating dragon dummy, the copperman dummy, the plum blossom dummy, the pole dummy, the fan dummy, sword dummy, and the rest of the ( if I'm not mistaken) 18 dummies of clf ?

I think a lot of people would have seen those vcds, and so that would not put you on any special position to comment on the chan dummies and other materials shown on the vcd sets?

[hskwarrior]

to tell you the truth, the dummy sets created by the chan family branch is great, its wonderful for them.

However, i'll stick to Hung SIng Kwoon dummy sets. IF i was going to go into battle using my staff, then it's possible i may check out chan family stuff to compare.

Sa bau jong, not too hard to put together on the bag that hangs in my school. same concept.

Possibly one day, i will learn a few Chan Family dummy sets, a few Buk Sing ones too.

but for now, i'll stick to what we got.

Just because the chan family has many forms, it doesn't mean they are better than any of the other branches. as i've said, i haven't been impressed by hub bub about Chan Family this and that. I don't find it any different than what any other CLF branch has put out.

Remember, what was passed down within the CHan Family stayed within the Chan Family. The other branches teach their own stuff and passed that down within their own branches.

For sure, the Chan Family DOES NOT teach ANY of the techniques that Tam Sam created and passed down within his branch. IF you can dispute this, then please be my guest. I implore you to prove that wrong.

The Chan Family doesn't teach the sets and concepts and such that the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon passes down within their branch. The Chan Family doesn't teach Joy Yau Biu Sei which was passed down within Lau Bun's branch.

For those reading, and want to know why Jeong Yim doesn't teach anything of the Chan Family branch it's because how far do you think in 5 years Chan Heung developed Choy Lee Fut? Jeong Yim stopped learning from Chan Heung after 5 years and then went on to learn from Monk Ching Cho (the Green Grass MOnk).

According to OUR history (not theirs) Jeong Yim returned to Chan Heung and "shared" with Chan Heung some of the new stuff Jeong Yim learned. Regardless of culture, if someone created something and then someone came along and said "let's add some of this to make it better" into the mix isn't at all impossible for Jeong Yim to achieve that.

again, the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon doesn't teach Chan Heung material except for the 10 seeds. Set wise, their material is different from each other.

[extrajoseph]

Check this one out,

and then you can respond to this.

http://members-central.optushome.com.au/meanstreets/clf/clfkhint.htm

Hi Frank,

Did you see this disclaimer written in red at the top of the page?

'What is said forthwith conflicts with the popular history concerning the development of Choy Lay Fut. It is presented as we heard it, and without bias. The Buck Sing Gwoon takes no responsibility whatsoever for it's implications, if any. For the record, we, The Buck Sing Gwoon, maintain Chan Heung as the founder of Choy Lay Fut.'

Even the author was embarassed by the story made up by Kong Hing and Leong Ji, have you got no brain to see through the tripe?

Go and visit King Mui sometime!

EJ

[VStanmore]

Interestingly, the way you view forms, why do you not just teach pure lau bun clf but instead you and your sifu go back to futsan to GET MORE FORMS and now teach some futsan forms as well?

If Jeong Yim taught Chan Heung, or founded clf, then how come his branch doesn't have all the wooden dummies, internal clf and the 8 bagua forms?

What wooden dummy did you say the hung sing has?

[hskwarrior]

how dumb are you joseph?

i may be color blind, but i have read that. and i see it as them trying not to pick sides.

however, the main sifu of that school doesn't feel the same way.

[VStanmore]

Hi Frank,

Did you see this disclaimer written in red at the top of the page?

'What is said forthwith conflicts with the popular history concerning the development of Choy Lay Fut. It is presented as we heard it, and without bias. The Buck Sing Gwoon takes no responsibility whatsoever for it's implications, if any. For the record, we, The Buck Sing Gwoon, maintain Chan Heung as the founder of Choy Lay Fut.'

Even the author was embarassed by the story made up by Kong Hing and Leong Ji, have you got no brain to see through the tripe?

Go and visit King Mui sometime!

EJ

Hey EJ,

Good point!

Look at this quote: "For the record, we, The Buck Sing Gwoon, maintain Chan Heung as the founder of Choy Lay Fut"

:)

[hskwarrior]

where did you read that they were "EMBARRASSED"?

or is that just your way of playing with words.?

or how you manipulate them?

[hskwarrior]

what will king mui have to offer me?

why would i want to go there?

I've been to fut san already.

so what's your point?

[VStanmore]

Interestingly, the way you view forms, why do you not just teach pure lau bun clf but instead you and your sifu go back to futsan to GET MORE FORMS and now teach some futsan forms as well?

If Jeong Yim taught Chan Heung, or founded clf, then how come his branch doesn't have all the wooden dummies, internal clf and the 8 bagua forms?

What wooden dummy did you say the hung sing has?

EJ,
I wonder why he and his group are getting MORE FORMS from futsan given how he feels about forms? And why teach more forms from the futsan group that is not found in the lau bun clf? :D

[hskwarrior]

you still don't know the background of that school and what they actually believe.

I don't care regardless. If you have a problem with what was said, then i Suggest you literati go and see Edler Kong Hing and speak to him yourself.

however, that won't happen because you all are tooooooo scared to find out his point of view personally.

[VStanmore]

King Mui is the village of the founder of CLF: Chan Heung.

[VStanmore]

I don't care about Kong Hin's point of view. I rather listen to Ng Fu Hang, Chen Yong Fa and EJ.
Did Kong Hin meet Chan Heung? I don't think so. Why can't he be biased?

[hskwarrior]

Yuen Hai was Jeong Yim's student. Jeong Yim IS the founder of his Kwoon in Fut San.

Lau Bun was a student of Yuen Hai. Lau Bun came to america in the early 1900's. Jeong Yim died only two years after Lau Bun was born.

Lau Bun learned HS CLF in it's most earliest form. He learned what was being taught at THAT time. Chan Ngau Sing took what was being taught and made it easier for the newer students.

We never went back to learn more forms, we were happy with our own. But after dealing with Fut San who instantly recognized us as coming directly from Fut San, we only then chose to pick up whatever Fut San was teaching. So, we picked up a few more forms that were passed down from the origin of OUR gung fu. What's the problem with that?

I see, its just your way of trying to stir up some trouble.

If the Chan family was so great and such, then why did they take Doc Fai Wong as the one who teaches their bloodline now? Why doesn't the bloodline of Chan Family Choy Lee Fut teach their own family? Yet the let some guy from san francisco come into china and they chose him to teach their own family.

I wonder why someone from america had to go to china to teach the CHan Family their own Choy Lee Fut?????????

[extrajoseph]

how dumb are you joseph?

i may be color blind, but i have read that. and i see it as them trying not to pick sides.

however, the main sifu of that school doesn't feel the same way.

Hi Frank,

How dumb can you be?

They have already picked their side and said so, the main sifu of that school knew Chen Yong-Fa very well from way back when they fought together in tounaments.

EJ

[hskwarrior]

vstanmore,

I am not a Chan Family member. I practice Fut San Hung SIng Choy Lee Fut.

If i was a Chan Family disciple, then i could see the benefit in going to Ging Mui.

Still, My roots come from Fut San Hung SIng Choy Lee Fut, the birth place of Jeong Yim's gung fu, which consisted of teaching from Lee Yau San, Chan Heung and Monk Ching Cho.

See while in your lineage.......it looks like this..

Chan Yuen Wu Choy Fook Lee Yau San
I
Chan Heung


While Jeong Yim's lineage looks like this.......

Lee Yau San (1st sifu) Chan Heung (second sifu) Monk Ching Cho (3rd sifu)
I
Jeong Hung Sing

[hskwarrior]

The founder of that school thinks you are a joke joseph. and you know that.

still, if any of you chan family CLF people have a problem with that then take it to the source and as one well known sifu once told you to have a meeting and discuss this face to face.

[extrajoseph]

Yuen Hai was Jeong Yim's student. Jeong Yim IS the founder of his Kwoon in Fut San.

Lau Bun was a student of Yuen Hai. Lau Bun came to america in the early 1900's. Jeong Yim died only two years after Lau Bun was born.

Lau Bun learned HS CLF in it's most earliest form. He learned what was being taught at THAT time. Chan Ngau Sing took what was being taught and made it easier for the newer students.

We never went back to learn more forms, we were happy with our own. But after dealing with Fut San who instantly recognized us as coming directly from Fut San, we only then chose to pick up whatever Fut San was teaching. So, we picked up a few more forms that were passed down from the origin of OUR gung fu. What's the problem with that?

I see, its just your way of trying to stir up some trouble.

If the Chan family was so great and such, then why did they take Doc Fai Wong as the one who teaches their bloodline now? Why doesn't the bloodline of Chan Family Choy Lee Fut teach their own family? Yet the let some guy from san francisco come into china and they chose him to teach their own family.

I wonder why someone from america had to go to china to teach the CHan Family their own Choy Lee Fut?????????

Hi Frank,

That just goes to show it is not about blood lines it is about being open minded and learn as much as you can and from as many source as possible so your Kung Fu can be the best in the end.

I am sure Jeong Yim and Koon Pak would have exchanged some techniques and taught each other how to improve their skills but that doe not mean Jeong Yim taught Koon Pak.

Likewise, if one of Chan Heung descendants wants to learn from Doc Fai, (a famous sifu from America - the land of dreams and success), it does not mean the Chan Family has lost their art. It means that they are thirst to improve and do better, whatever it takes.

And that is what makes us CLF great! (and lasting!)

Anmd you Frank? You got stack in Futsan!

EJ:(

[iron_silk]

and iron silk, i've been decent with you up until now. but when you start making false claims that i am friends with Chan Yong Fa, thats when i have to put you in check. Don't put my name in your mouth unless you know of what you are talking about. THere are more CLF elders that know about me than you. so don't be a hater.

if you have something to say, then speak up little biatch.


I am sorry I didn't mean to make "false claims" I said I remembered and I clearly remembered wrong. So I admit that. I just thought you said you communicated with him and you two were cool...I must have been thinking of someone from Lee Koon Hung side.

Maybe you mentioned that you were going to ask his cousin some questions???

No matter how angry I got with you in the past or how you insulted me and others with threats I never called you rude name. Don't think that is ever necessary and I always say what I mean. You just don't ever respond to all them.

[hskwarrior]

WARNING: This History of CHOY LAY FUT was given in brief by Si Gung Kong Hing at his home in Kowloon, March 1998. Added are parts from an interview with Leong Ji (Lun Chee) at the Buck Sing Gwoon Melbourne.

This transcript provides revelations that contradict the history of Choy Lay Fut and it's founder Chan Heung. These are

What is said forthwith conflicts with the popular history concerning the development of Choy Lay Fut. It is presented as we heard it, and without bias. The Buck Sing Gwoon takes no responsibility whatsoever for it's implications, if any. For the record, we, The Buck Sing Gwoon, maintain Chan Heung as the founder of Choy Lay Fut.

the last highlighted area released them from liability in regards to that statement.

it doesn't reveal the true thoughts on the matter what so ever.

[VStanmore]

Hey EJ,

Good point!

Look at this quote: "For the record, we, The Buck Sing Gwoon, maintain Chan Heung as the founder of Choy Lay Fut"

:)
EJ,
Why doesn't that guy see the quote in the very website he posted the link to? :confused:

This quote:"For the record, we, The Buck Sing Gwoon, maintain Chan Heung as the founder of Choy Lay Fut"

[hskwarrior]

iron silk,

what i said was that I have met Master Fu Hang Ng at one of DFW's tournaments.

He,his students and I actually spent some time talking. It was at that time that Master Fu Hang Ng covered up the Hung Sing in my tattoo and said to me "all i see is CLF" no division.

I am in contact with his students, and i have already asked the question and started the ball rolling.

as you know Fu Hang Ng is a blood relative in the CHan Family.

[iron_silk]

iron silk,

i purposely don't get involved too much when it comes to the chan side of things.

chan family supporters are so blind to see what's around them i'll let them stay blind.

everyone on the chan side of things dispute Jeong Yim and what he has done for CLF. Why do you think everytime some Hung Sing stuff comes up, people like joseph, iron silk and so on say "no, let's talk about Chan Heung and his 8 internal bagua forms.

any one in their own organization can come up with new things to practice. just as the way Chan Heung did, his lineage did, and so on. If you guys think Chan Heung came up with every single thing the chan family does, and Chan Yong Fa, Chan Yiu Chi, or whoever never added in things to take the system further than i think you guys are great chan family supporters. keep up the good work.

let the Hung Sing People who know about their own founder tell the story and stop trying to obscure Jeong Yim's history with that of CHan Heung's.


I think that is extreming the whole thing a bit (as usual) since I never once mentioned Chan Family forms, let alone bagua, I don't question your points. I don't take any one side, but I do expect claims to be supported.

I don't think ANYBODY ever said Chan Heung came up with everything...that is an exaggeration.

We really should strip down on all the bullcrap dispute and stick to core difference each side is trying to peddle.

[hskwarrior]

stanmore

take a look again?

show me where it says "we're sorry, We are Embarrassed" and were forced to print those comments?

I only see a release of Liability, not a sign of embarrassment.

where is the embarrassment?

why do you think if they were embarrassed to print that, then why did they?

[VStanmore]

I saw This quote:"For the record, we, The Buck Sing Gwoon, maintain Chan Heung as the founder of Choy Lay Fut"

[hskwarrior]

actually,

if you ever claim anything........Joseph will come in to chime that Chan Heung has a whole set of blah blah blah to learn about that subject.

The only thing i agree with you iron Silk, is that there is too much bs in CLF history.

what should happen is that CHan Family is the founder of Chan Family Choy Lee Fut, Jeong Yim is the Founder of Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut, and Tam Sam the founder of Buk Sing Choy Lee FUt.

what is taught in each branch is different all the way around.

Chan Heung learned his gung fu from others, he didn't invent the system on his own. he only took the best of what he learned and developed into his own system.

Since Jeong Yim learned from Lee Yau San, Chan Heung and Green Grass Monk Jeong Yim took the best of what he learned and created a system of gung fu that was passed down within his own school.

Tam Sam taught what he developed within his own school as well.

the argument of who was first, and who has the most forms has to stop. Buk Sing Kwoon only has three CLF forms, yet their reputation as hardcore fighters are well known.

we all have our own histories, it;s when people from the other branches trying to tell you about your own family is when the problem starts.

[iron_silk]

If the Chan family was so great and such, then why did they take Doc Fai Wong as the one who teaches their bloodline now? Why doesn't the bloodline of Chan Family Choy Lee Fut teach their own family? Yet the let some guy from san francisco come into china and they chose him to teach their own family.

I wonder why someone from america had to go to china to teach the CHan Family their own Choy Lee Fut?????????


Well you don't really know their arrangement...I must admit it does sound funny...but it is really between them should leave it as such and really doesn't reflect history since there could be many of good reasons I am sure.

For one you can always learn from anybody...maybe the current generation of CLF masters at King Mui isn't quite up to par? Only speculations I have no idea.

[VStanmore]

I saw This quote:"For the record, we, The Buck Sing Gwoon, maintain Chan Heung as the founder of Choy Lay Fut"

The quote is telling us that the buck sing gwoon considers Chan Heung the founder of CLF.
Not jeong yim. OK?

[hskwarrior]

stanmore,

where is the embarrassment?

I still only see a release of liability.

Although they may believe what it says, they are only releasing themselves from any reprecussions from posting that information.


come on.:mad:

[hskwarrior]

also, i can tell you that information is really old.

do you know how long that has been out there?

I can tell you that the Buk Sing people did support Chan Heung until they started researching Hung SIng Kwoon history. that's when things changed.

as well, some don't want to rock the boat so they don't trip off of the popular history. You see, Tam Sam shared his info with his students. Tam Sam was a Hung Sing Man, who believed in the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon not Chan Family CLF.

[extrajoseph]

EJ,
Why doesn't that guy see the quote in the very website he posted the link to? :confused:

This quote:"For the record, we, The Buck Sing Gwoon, maintain Chan Heung as the founder of Choy Lay Fut"

Because people like Frank only wants to see what they want to see. FULL STOP!

[hskwarrior]

are you sure the buk sing branch believes that Chan Heung was the sole founder?

are you sure about that? have you ever spoken with a Buk Sing elder to base your comments on?

i didn't think so.

[VStanmore]

The quote is telling us that the buck sing gwoon considers Chan Heung the founder of CLF.
Not jeong yim. OK?
I see them claiming chan heung is founder of CLF. I'm not talking about liability.

This quote: "For the record, we, The Buck Sing Gwoon, maintain Chan Heung as the founder of Choy Lay Fut"

[hskwarrior]

do you people see how i've asked questions but none have been answered?

[VStanmore]

are you sure the buk sing branch believes that Chan Heung was the sole founder?

are you sure about that? have you ever spoken with a Buk Sing elder to base your comments on?

i didn't think so.

This quote:"For the record, we, The Buck Sing Gwoon, maintain Chan Heung as the founder of Choy Lay Fut"

The quote mentions only Chan Heung as founder of CLF. No Jeong Yim or co-founder. OK?

[extrajoseph]

as well, some don't want to rock the boat so they don't trip off of the popular history. You see, Tam Sam shared his info with his students. Tam Sam was a Hung Sing Man, who believed in the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon not Chan Family CLF.

No. Not true, Tam Sam was long dead before Kong Hing made his claim. Futsan actually never said Chan Heung was not the founder of CLF.

[iron_silk]

actually,

if you ever claim anything........Joseph will come in to chime that Chan Heung has a whole set of blah blah blah to learn about that subject.

The only thing i agree with you iron Silk, is that there is too much bs in CLF history.

what should happen is that CHan Family is the founder of Chan Family Choy Lee Fut, Jeong Yim is the Founder of Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut, and Tam Sam the founder of Buk Sing Choy Lee FUt.

what is taught in each branch is different all the way around.

Chan Heung learned his gung fu from others, he didn't invent the system on his own. he only took the best of what he learned and developed into his own system.

Since Jeong Yim learned from Lee Yau San, Chan Heung and Green Grass Monk Jeong Yim took the best of what he learned and created a system of gung fu that was passed down within his own school.

Tam Sam taught what he developed within his own school as well.

the argument of who was first, and who has the most forms has to stop. Buk Sing Kwoon only has three CLF forms, yet their reputation as hardcore fighters are well known.

we all have our own histories, it;s when people from the other branches trying to tell you about your own family is when the problem starts.

Although I think Joseph is quite knowledgeable I don't quite agree with his behaviour all the time. (just like the way I feel about you)

I just want to know when did this Jeong Yim learn from Lee Yau San came about???? cause way back when or even a while ago this was never mentioned.


I mean slowly but surely your history version of Jeong Yim is taking over Chan Heung's life. First it was Ching Cho, second Lee Yau San, and third....he is the b@stard love child of Chan Yuen Wu??????

I agree we should stick to our own lineage but to say Jeong Yim taugh Chan Koon Pak spit in the face of Chan Family since he is the second generation successor.

And no offense to Kong Hing but he came from a lineage (Tam Sam - Buk Sing) that is a generation removed from Jeong Yim and left before completing his training. Moving away from all this to develop his own how well can his possibily know the history??? Despite Kong Hing being of old generation...time and people affect the history being told. Period. Not hard facts I am afraid.

Think we'll just have to accept that this is as far as it will go.

[hskwarrior]

see, to the folks like joseph who act like Chan family representatives are only ****ed off that they cannot disprove Jeong Yim and his lineage or history.

they have tried to fool you people to think that CHan Heung sent Jeong Yim to open a fut san hung sing kwoon much later than when we tell it.

but then we have government officials who confirm that Jeong Yim was already teaching in Fut San before 1851. He was registered in 1851 when he organized all the Hung SIng Kwoon's in Fut San to join in on the revolution.

They have tried to claim that Chan Sent Jeong Yim to Fut San in 1867 to re-open a chan family school. However, Jeong Him returned in 1867 to re-open his own school after evading capture for 3 years from 1864-1867.

But if you listen to the Chan Family members about Jeong Yim, then you will never know about him and his legacy because they want to push it to the back burner so you can focus on Chan Heung and his lineage.

I guess this fight will never end.

[VStanmore]

Yeah, where did this Lee yau san thing come into the story?

What's next? You dug up an electronic kuen po from E. T. ?:D

[iron_silk]

also, i can tell you that information is really old.

do you know how long that has been out there?

I can tell you that the Buk Sing people did support Chan Heung until they started researching Hung SIng Kwoon history. that's when things changed.

as well, some don't want to rock the boat so they don't trip off of the popular history. You see, Tam Sam shared his info with his students. Tam Sam was a Hung Sing Man, who believed in the Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon not Chan Family CLF.


If they all were so united to support Chan Heung to begin with there must've been a good reason. Since Buk Sing don't hold back on history and all.

Then we all decide to change when they returned to Fut San right? So Buk Sing didn't really know their history until recently....which makes what Kong Hing said out of date really.

[iron_silk]

see, to the folks like joseph who act like Chan family representatives are only ****ed off that they cannot disprove Jeong Yim and his lineage or history.

they have tried to fool you people to think that CHan Heung sent Jeong Yim to open a fut san hung sing kwoon much later than when we tell it.

but then we have government officials who confirm that Jeong Yim was already teaching in Fut San before 1851. He was registered in 1851 when he organized all the Hung SIng Kwoon's in Fut San to join in on the revolution.

They have tried to claim that Chan Sent Jeong Yim to Fut San in 1867 to re-open a chan family school. However, Jeong Him returned in 1867 to re-open his own school after evading capture for 3 years from 1864-1867.

But if you listen to the Chan Family members about Jeong Yim, then you will never know about him and his legacy because they want to push it to the back burner so you can focus on Chan Heung and his lineage.

I guess this fight will never end.


It would be really cool if someone could check up on the registry though. But seriously how reliable to is that?

So Chan change the story to push Chan Heung...not unlike Fut San changing their history to push Jeong Yim???

[VStanmore]

see, to the folks like joseph who act like Chan family representatives are only ****ed off that they cannot disprove Jeong Yim and his lineage or history.

they have tried to fool you people to think that CHan Heung sent Jeong Yim to open a fut san hung sing kwoon much later than when we tell it.

but then we have government officials who confirm that Jeong Yim was already teaching in Fut San before 1851. He was registered in 1851 when he organized all the Hung SIng Kwoon's in Fut San to join in on the revolution.

They have tried to claim that Chan Sent Jeong Yim to Fut San in 1867 to re-open a chan family school. However, Jeong Him returned in 1867 to re-open his own school after evading capture for 3 years from 1864-1867.

But if you listen to the Chan Family members about Jeong Yim, then you will never know about him and his legacy because they want to push it to the back burner so you can focus on Chan Heung and his lineage.

I guess this fight will never end.

This is getting ridiculous isn't it? Jeong Yim registered with government of futsan to overthrow government through revolution?

[hskwarrior]

the information on Jeong Yim learning from Lee Yau San came via Chan Ngau Sing down to his disciple Qian Wei Fang, and so on from generation to generation.

Iron Silk, if you take time to research it, the fut san Hung SIng Kwoon has much of this information on it. You ask why did all this new information come out only now?

well it's because until 1998 no one new that the Hung SIng Kwoon in Fut San Still existed. The first people to put on the net jeong yim's info was my sifu's website(hungsing.com).

Now, that information on the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon is available, then new stuff was uncovered.

In actuality, written records, and a few Kuen Po's were excavated on the Fut San Hung SIng kwoon. I will try to post the pictures of one of the Fut San History books, and even a small section of a Kuen Po.

pls seehttp://www.hongshengguan.com

Use worldling.com to translate.

[hskwarrior]

no you are ridiculous.

I am not going to re-do this with someone who came late into the picture.

what you don't know about the fut san hung sing kwoon stanmore, is not my problem.

check out fut san hung sing kwoon's website for your self.

do you read chinese. i got a whole lot in chinse for you to read.

however, you cannot disprove the governments account of Jeong Yim when he was in fut san. all you can do is b1tch and complain.

seach the site, gain some knowledge on hsk, and then try again later.

[VStanmore]

This quote:"For the record, we, The Buck Sing Gwoon, maintain Chan Heung as the founder of Choy Lay Fut"

The quote mentions only Chan Heung as founder of CLF. No Jeong Yim or co-founder. OK?
Anyway, lets get to the point, instead of going around in circles. The quote only mentions Chan Heung is founder of clf. No other founder. No jeong yim. OK?

[hskwarrior]

Now when it comes to the process of how and why Jeong Yim is recorded in 1851 is not my problem. all that matters is that he is officially recorded as teaching in fut san in 1851.

That info did not start with me. so unless you have some alterior motive in trying to prove ME wrong, you need to do some research on the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon before you can debate me on my own lineage.

I hate having to retell all this bs for some dude who wants to battle the legendary Hung SingKwoon Warrior.

[hskwarrior]

the release of liability of the person who posted that site clearly states that although they feel this way, we are saying "we" don't.

Still i don't see the embarrassement brother joseph was referring to.

trust me those who originally told the story are not embarrassed. you can go to the bank on that one.
I know as well as joseph, that the sifu of the person who posted that site strongly believes in the Fut San Hung Sing kwoon history.

all they were doing was stepping away from the drama.

If they didn't truly believe it, then they never would have posted it.

that is a buk sing site, not a chan family site.

[iron_silk]

the information on Jeong Yim learning from Lee Yau San came via Chan Ngau Sing down to his disciple Qian Wei Fang, and so on from generation to generation.

Iron Silk, if you take time to research it, the fut san Hung SIng Kwoon has much of this information on it. You ask why did all this new information come out only now?

well it's because until 1998 no one new that the Hung SIng Kwoon in Fut San Still existed. The first people to put on the net jeong yim's info was my sifu's website(hungsing.com).

Now, that information on the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon is available, then new stuff was uncovered.

In actuality, written records, and a few Kuen Po's were excavated on the Fut San Hung SIng kwoon. I will try to post the pictures of one of the Fut San History books, and even a small section of a Kuen Po.

pls seehttp://www.hongshengguan.com

Use worldling.com to translate.


I like it a lot more when we share info rather then shout at each other.

I can see why from the site you believe what you believe. I think the truth will ultimately be something in between and never be truly discovered.

Also I don't believe the Chinese government one bit. Not one bit. They do what they do for themselves and have to answer to no one. This isn't just about CLF it's about the way they are in general.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,


but then we have government officials who confirm that Jeong Yim was already teaching in Fut San before 1851. He was registered in 1851 when he organized all the Hung SIng Kwoon's in Fut San to join in on the revolution.

Sun Yat-San was all over China when he aske people to join in the revolution, he must have been a school teacher all over the place. He may have even been in Futsan at the time, may be we can say he founded the Futsan Hung Sing Kwoon. What do you say?

:D

[VStanmore]

Hi Frank,



Sun Yat-San was all over China when he aske people to join in the revolution, he must have been a school teacher all over the place. He may have even been in Futsan at the time, may be we can say he founded the Futsan Hung Sing Kwoon. What do you say?

:D
EJ,
Nice one!
Ha ha ha .....anyone want sun clf with the in and out kau da?:D :D

[hskwarrior]

here is one of the HSK written histories........

the other is a Kuen Po from FUT San HSK.

I am without a doubt SURE joseph will try to claim CHan Heung on this one.

[hskwarrior]

haha....that IS a good one.

Anyone want to kill a tiger with a coat hanger?

or hear.....why don't you stand there and let me throw some rocks at you. now don't move around or i might not hit you, okay?

how about a quick show of super Human Strength?

Or even want to kick up some rocks in the air and break them with our incredible Chan kicks!!!!!

YEAH!!!! That sounds GRRRRREeeaaattt.

It sure does!

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

Here is a good example of your misinformation due to lack of knowledge on Chinese history and language.

This is a hand wtitten manuscript for a story written by a guy called Chan on the Futsan Hung Sing Kwoon. It was serialised in the local newspaper as a martial arts novel and not as a history of CLF.

It is definitely not a kuen po.

You have to do better than that Frank to show us that Jeong Yim was the founder and Futsan was the birthplace of CLF.

EJ

[VStanmore]

EJ,
So the guy is using a martial arts novel as history of clf?:D

It goes to show the reliability of his research?

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

The second picture you have posted is also not a kuen po, at least not a proper one, more like a short hand.

Do you knoiw what a proper CLF kuen po looks like? It has a definite structue and not just a short description of what the body and limbs are doing.

That shows Futsan don't have the goods to make their claim if that is the best you can throw at us.

EJ

[hskwarrior]

i never said CLF was founded by Jeong Yim.

I said Co-founded. and that Jeong Yim is the founder of His Hung SIng Kwoon. not Chan Family CLF.

Now, i told you all that Joseph will have some answer against what i posted.

joseph has a counter to everything. right?

[hskwarrior]

And Joseph, what makes you an authority on what a kuen po is?

IF you have a problem with FUT San HUNG SIng CLF then take it to the elders there.

You are a fool to think you can ever convert me. Fut San is where we started and you can't change that.

you can't prove anything joseph. and this stanmore guy reminds me of KENNYPOOP.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

The bit that showed on the novel is about Chan Ou-Sheng and not about your beloved Jeong Yim! Isn't it ironic?

:D

[hskwarrior]

see, now joseph is telling us how and where and what structure some one should record their information.

if the chan family does it that way, then that's fine. we are not CHAN FAMILY CLF.

you will never get rid of HUNG SING CHOY LEE FUT joseph. deal with it.

[extrajoseph]

And Joseph, what makes you an authority on what a kuen po is?

IF you have a problem with FUT San HUNG SIng CLF then take it to the elders there.

You are a fool to think you can ever convert me. Fut San is where we started and you can't change that.

you can't prove anything joseph. and this stanmore guy reminds me of KENNYPOOP.

Hi Frank,

Have you seen a proper Kuen Po? Get a look at one before you talk about the subject. The proof is on you.

Regards,

EJ

[hskwarrior]

i know it was about Chan Ngau Sing and how he dealt with someone at the temple.

and my translation to you is as loose as your own information on Jeong Yim.

[hskwarrior]

i know it was about Chan Ngau Sing and how he dealt with someone at the temple.

and my translation to you is as loose as your own information on Jeong Yim.


see, all you've done joseph is say, no you're wrong. then back it up.

you have never schooled me on Jeong Yim. why don't you let us, the Hung Sing People hear what you know about jeong yim. you won't will you? becauseyou know you are wrong when it comes to Jeong Yim.

stick to Chan Heung.

[hskwarrior]

and you still haven't answered what makes you an authority on Kuen Po's.


i know you say your're hella old, come on.


answere me old man.

[extrajoseph]

see, now joseph is telling us how and where and what structure some one should record their information.

if the chan family does it that way, then that's fine. we are not CHAN FAMILY CLF.

you will never get rid of HUNG SING CHOY LEE FUT joseph. deal with it.

Hi Frank,

Why would I want to get rid of Hung Sing CLF? it has been around longer than you and I will ever be.

All CLF is Chan Family CLF whether you like it or not because we all have the same ancestry, get that into your head and deal with it!

EJ

[hskwarrior]

you may be knowledgeable on Chan Family CLF joseph,

but you are completely and utterly ignorant when it comes to Jeong Yim's Hung Sing Kwoon.

you try to fill these people with your own bs, and try to sway people away from going to the Fut San source.

You said i should go to King Mui. I aksed you why. You never answered.

you throw out all types of sheet, but you cannot tell me about my lineage. at all.

I wonder why that is?

[hskwarrior]

why?

because Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut conflicts with the Chan Family Choy Lee Fut history.

that's why.

[VStanmore]

why?

because Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut conflicts with the Chan Family Choy Lee Fut history.

that's why.

How many times do you need to be told this:This quote:"For the record, we, The Buck Sing Gwoon, maintain Chan Heung as the founder of Choy Lay Fut"

The quote mentions only Chan Heung as founder of CLF. No Jeong Yim or co-founder. OK?

Why do you keep rambling on and on with so much useless comments?

If you have something substantial then show it. Otherwise just say so that you don't. OK?

[extrajoseph]

why?

because Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut conflicts with the Chan Family Choy Lee Fut history.

that's why.

Why?

Because you are telling me that my great great grandfather is not my great great grandfather but someone else. That is why!

[hskwarrior]

your ancestry may be Chan Yuen Wu, Choy Fook, and Lee Yau San.

My ancestry is Lee Yau San, Chan Heung, and Monk Choy Fook.

Our Gung fu may have started with Chan Heung, but Jeong Yim didn't stay long, and after his time with Monk Ching Cho he developed his own type of Choy Lee Fut. He developed his CLF and included what he learned from Lee Yau San, and Ching CHo into what he learned from Chan Heung.

this kind of CLF was Not taught in the Chan Family branch. It was taught in Jeung Hung Sing's branch. Chan Heung's Choy Lee FUt was Not taught in Jeong Yim's Branch. The Buk Sing Branch teaches Jeong Yim's Choy Lee Fut. They don't teach Chan Family Choy Lee FUt.

With Three Different Schools teaching the same style, with three different -completely different--styles of Choy Lee Fut. you have to ask why, why doesn't all the Choy Lee Fut schools-----if they all started with Chan Heung, then why don't the other two branches of the same style practice and teach Chan Heung's material?

[hskwarrior]

is that some sarcastic remark? or are you saying that "I" frank, am telling you that I am saying your Great Great Grand Father is someone else?

speak clearly, dude.

[hskwarrior]

oh, kenny's back..

kenny=Vstanmore.

Vstanmore......you better be careful, or they will know you are kenny, and you will get banned again.

[VStanmore]

Hi EJ,

I'm curious is there any Lee Gar left in Sun Wui? I would like to see some Lee Gar, Choy Gar and Mok Gar kungfu, as they were suppose to be some of the 5 famous shaolin lineages in Guangdong.
I remember reading about a Lee Gar sifu in HK surnamed Mok I think.
Would like to hear your experiences if you have encountered any remnants of those styles.

Thanks.

[extrajoseph]

Our Gung fu may have started with Chan Heung, but Jeong Yim didn't stay long, and after his time with Monk Ching Cho he developed his own type of Choy Lee Fut. He developed his CLF and included what he learned from Lee Yau San, and Ching CHo into what he learned from Chan Heung.

Hi Frank,

Then please don't use the term CLF and call yourself something else. For example "Chan Lee Ching" Kung Fu or something and that would solve all your and our problems.

EJ

[extrajoseph]

is that some sarcastic remark? or are you saying that "I" frank, am telling you that I am saying your Great Great Grand Father is someone else?

speak clearly, dude.

Hi Frank,

Obviously you don't know what a metaphor is.

If I do CLF and our founder is Chan Heung and you come along and say to us we do CLF too but our founder is Jeong Yim, does that not meant now you are telling us our "great great grandfather" (our CLF ancester) is someone else?

It is very very insulting! Frank. Get it?

EJ

[hskwarrior]

ahhhhhh, your problem Joseph is that Because the Hung SIng branch doesn't view Chan Heung as OUR founder, you think we should call ourselves something else? right?

In your old age, you should know that Hung SIng Kwoon's style was also referred to as Hung Sing Kuen.

We went over this before, It was reported by elders that around the 3rd generation the Hung Sing Kwoon didn't use the name Choy Lee Fut. It was others who referred to Jeong Yim's style as having elements of Choy Ga, Lee Ga, and Fut Ga. The FUt San Hung SIng Kwoon was using Hung SIng Kuen or even Fut Gar Jing Jong.

It really sucks for ALL of CLF when one branch wants to exlude another or others because they don't practice and teach that one branches methods, ideas, principles, and so on. It really sucks that there are Chan Family members who won't let Jeong Yim have the history he so rightly deserves.

The chan Family has NO connection to the Green Grass Monk, but Jeong Yim did. because the green grass monk wouldn't go away, the chan family resorts to changing history turning him into Choy Fook so in order to keep the scales tipped in their favor.

The fact of the matter is that Jeong Yim was a short time student of CHan Heung. Regardless of the reason, Jeong Yim then went to Ching Cho. Before Chan Heung Jeong Yim studied with Lee Yau San, and is most likely why Jeong Yim adopted to Chan Heung's gung fu so well.

What sucks is that someone in the third generation records their history for posterity. And people belive it. Much like the believed the BIBLE and come to finde out that the original version has been modified to suit the publics feelings. However, when many of the other side cannot read or write their own names, and was not able to physically able to write it down due to their handicaps it doesn't mean they are lying when they verbally re-tell their lives and their histories people want to kick it to the curb.

Well guess what, many of you have gotten to know your grandfathers and got to know more of them by asking questions. NONE of what you learned about your grand fathers in 2006 are recorded for future use. I can say at least 50% of the people who read this forum has never taken the time to do a family tree.

Some of us even have living great great grand mothers yet no one has ever taken the time to write THEIR histories. And this is 2006. So to say that The Fut San Hung SIng Kwoon is wrong in the account of their own history because their were no written records from its origin is completely unfair. Not right. at all.

However, the Fut San Lineage lives on becuase of Soldiers like myself, and other HSK elders. Leave it up to the CHan Family HSK history would disappear all together.

really really sad joseph.

[hskwarrior]

and the very same goes for what you say about OUR founder.

why is your point of view about your founder more important than mine.

and you know that you have just revealed that your focus on me is more on the line of anger than anything.

[hskwarrior]

see, you forget that i have never denied that Chan Heung was Jeong Yim's sifu.

However, there is the thing about what Chan Heung actually taught Jeong Yim.

But, Jeong Yim was not a Chan Heung soldier. He obviously was more dedicated to the Green Grass Monk, which is more likely the reason he chose to change the name of Chan Heung's school (the one by the blind guy) to that of his own.

I don't know for sure if Jeong Yim was pushing CHOY LEE FUT or HUNG SING KUEN, i'm not that old. Maybe you are joseph, but not me. But somewhere down the line CLF and Jeong Yim got linked up, and aftewards people believed Jeong Yim and CLF went hand in hand.

However, Chan Heung wasn't Jeong Yim's only sifu. Lee Yau San and Ching CHo were his other two. when developing his own gung fu what did you think he would do? He did just as chan Heung did, he combined all the gung fu he learned into a system that he taught.

But i see where you could be upset.

[extrajoseph]

We went over this before, It was reported by elders that around the 3rd generation the Hung Sing Kwoon didn't use the name Choy Lee Fut. It was others who referred to Jeong Yim's style as having elements of Choy Ga, Lee Ga, and Fut Ga. The FUt San Hung SIng Kwoon was using Hung SIng Kuen or even Fut Gar Jing Jong.

Hi Frank,

That's great. You do Hung Sing Kuen and Fut Gar Jing Jong and we do CLF, so we have nothing in common and we can stop this conversation because we are no longer talking about CLF or CLF history and you can say whatever you want about Fut Gar Jing Jong. It is none of my business.

Cheerio,

EJ

[hskwarrior]

cheerio.

i stopped eating that cereal long ago.

however, the hungsing branch is choy lee fut and you can't shake us. we have our own history and there's nothing you can do to change that.

Let the fut san hung sing kwoon tell the world about Jeong Yim and you can tell them about chan heung.

[extrajoseph]

No problem Frank,

You can tell the world about Hung Sing Kuen and Fut Gar Jing Jong from Futsan and leave us CLF practitioners alone.

Go ahead, you Hung Sing Warrior from Futsan.

Me? I do CLF!

[hskwarrior]

me too, joseph, me too.

brother.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank;

Did you say 'brother'? Who's your great great grandfather?

:eek: :D :D :D

[Fu-Pow]

You guys really need to try that ignore list feature. It just makes quality of life so much better. You don't have to wade through all the crap to get to the good stuff.

Instead of crap I just see this:

"This message is hidden because hskwarrior is on your ignore list. "

Its like everytime I read that its like a blessing from heaven.

FP

[VStanmore]

However, i'll stick to Hung SIng Kwoon dummy sets. IF i was going to go into battle using my staff, then it's possible i may check out chan family stuff to compare.

Sa bau jong, not too hard to put together on the bag that hangs in my school. same concept.

Possibly one day, i will learn a few Chan Family dummy sets, a few Buk Sing ones too.

but for now, i'll stick to what we got.

.

Watch out EJ!

Hung Sing kuen from Fut gar jing jung might soon have a sah bow jong!

The guy mentions "same concept", so maybe before he goes about MAKING SOMETHING UP, he could show he understands by describing the training philosophy/principle/s and essence of the Choy Lee Fut Sah bow jong??

:D :D

[VStanmore]

you still don't know the background of that school and what they actually believe.

I don't care regardless. If you have a problem with what was said, then i Suggest you literati go and see Edler Kong Hing and speak to him yourself.

however, that won't happen because you all are tooooooo scared to find out his point of view personally.

Hey EJ,

The guy goes on about how he knows his branches history, yet why does he need to rely on the biased (?) heresay (with no evidence) of an elder from another branch (buk sing?) to support his claims about his "lineage history"?

Yet on the link he posted, We can see this quote: "For the record, we, The Buck Sing Gwoon, maintain Chan Heung as the founder of Choy Lay Fut"

[VStanmore]

Hi Frank,

That's great. You do Hung Sing Kuen and Fut Gar Jing Jong and we do CLF, so we have nothing in common and we can stop this conversation because we are no longer talking about CLF or CLF history and you can say whatever you want about Fut Gar Jing Jong. It is none of my business.

Cheerio,

EJ

Hi EJ,
He mentioned hung sing dummies! I wonder what wooden dummies hung sing kuen has?

:D :D

[Fu-Pow]

Does Choy gar and lee gar of today resemble choy lay fut?

You might see some connection to Lee Ga because the founder of Lee Ga was Lee Yau San, the same Lee that was Chan Heung's teacher.

Choy Ga is not directly related to Choy Lay Fut. Choy refers to Choy Fook, who apparently knew something like Northern Shaolin....or so the story goes. ;)