Second Graders teaching First Graders

[valahian]

If people will stop wasting money to so called gradmasters and look closer to what they are learning they would realize they are being misled. You dont need other martial arts to complement wing chun, you need it because you are not learning real wing chun. You are learning to read and write from a 2nd grader while the real teachers are vanishing because of ignorance of people looking to play aerobics with wing chun. Wing Chun is a perfect art if learned corectly. Nobody should be able to take you to the ground - but your stances are wrong, your sensitivity is lacking (not softness), there is no structure (bone structure) being applied in your chi sau (just muscle fighting chi sau and techniques). Techniques, fast hands and a strong scull will not work against a real mean street fighter, but the art of wing chun will. I am a student at www.chicagowingchun.com. Check it out.

[Cobra Commander]

If people will stop wasting money to so called gradmasters and look closer to what they are learning they would realize they are being misled. You dont need other martial arts to complement wing chun, you need it because you are not learning real wing chun. You are learning to read and write from a 2nd grader while the real teachers are vanishing because of ignorance of people looking to play aerobics with wing chun. Wing Chun is a perfect art if learned corectly. Nobody should be able to take you to the ground - but your stances are wrong, your sensitivity is lacking (not softness), there is no structure (bone structure) being applied in your chi sau (just muscle fighting chi sau and techniques). Techniques, fast hands and a strong scull will not work against a real mean street fighter, but the art of wing chun will. I am a student at www.chicagowingchun.com. Check it out.


SOrry but I must disagree with you to an extent. Yes our Wing Chun systems can be very effective in a real life situation. WIng Chun is one of the top martial arts.

BUt to dismiss all other arts in this manner i find really ignorant. ANd to say fast hands and a strong skull will not work in a street fight?

Have you not seen a good boxer or muay thai fighter in a real street fight?!
Have you ever had a Kali guy pull a real or practice blade on you while you are empty handed?!

Come on! I am rooted in Wing Chun but, i also realize the strengthes of certain other arts/sciences.


Wing Chun of course like all other martial arts has a weakness or two. It is not built on perfection, nothing man made is 100% fool proof. Boxing has its weaknesses, Muay Thai has its weaknesses, Kali, etc etc.
HOwever, Wing Chun comes very close to being a flawless fighting form of expression.

I used to believe that it is the art that makes a great fighter but, I have been proven time and time again how wrong that mindset is. I now realize often times it is the individual who makes a great fighter too.

I have been watching so many Muay Thai VS Tai Kwon Do fights on the net and, of course I witness many Muay Thai guys beating the living crap out of the TKD guys. I led myself into the assumption ALL Tai Kwon Do "sux". Until this one day I saw another Muay Thai VS TKD clip. THis time it was the MUAY THAI GUY getting his butt kicked! THe TKD guy did not do those useless high spin kicks exposing his back, nor did he back off/run away too much. Instead the TKD guy was actually moving forward and attacking and countering.
It was the first time I have witnessed a Tai Kwon Do guy take the initiative and have both hands up, not expose his back, and not run away from his attacker. Perhaps he was enlightened beyond the whole "Black belt" mentality and realized there was a lot more to learn and improve.

Anyways, YOu DO have some valid points on here but, I just feel there are certain aspects/benefits of cross training you do not understand... so long as that cross training does not mess up the original Wing Chun one is studying.

[Cobra Commander]

BTW, we can put a 100 people from different Wing Chun lineages and backgrounds into a room and start a debate about what "Real" Wing Chun is,
and most likely there will be many people leaving that event that same day either upset or offended.

For some reason, after the whole William Cheung VS the Ving Tsun Athletic Association we as a Wing Chun community never truly learned from our past.

There is still so much politics going on regarding "which school/system is the true and best WIng Chun".
I feel most if not all Wing Chun schools/lineages have our strengthes as well as weaknesses.

A good Sifu is a Sifu who does not go about making claims that his school is "the real deal" or "the best and true" Wing Chun. A good Sifu does not need that image to promote his club. A good Sifu simply teaches what he knows to those who seek him.

[sihing]

To me Wing Chun is flawless, perfect per say, but it is not about that, it is about the fact that it is only us humans that are imperfect. Nothing we do will be perfectly executed, especially in a fighting environment, there are just too many things to control to be able to execute it perfectly. But if the system you are training in gives you tools that are very efficient, and effective as compared to something else that is not so efficient or effective, this can give you an edge if you use it correctly. For example, to me the fighting tools a person gains from a good WC instructor will be way more beneficial to them on the street as compared to a person learning TKD fighting tools from a good instructor of that art. This doesn't mean a TKD man can't fight, because in the end it is the person using it that counts the most. I've asked the question before, how important is what you learn regarding delivery systems as compared to how you use it?

Regarding weapons vs. an unarmed WC man, well this is not a fair comparison. It's like playing tag, can you stop another person from touching you? Very hard unless you run away, and this is the strategy when you face someone that has a weapon and you are unarmed. Unarmed fighting is allot harder as transfer of power to your tools is required to subdue your opponent, timing factors, distance factors. Trying to hit someone unarmed with a 3' long stick is allot easier IMO. Remember, don't bring a pair of gloves to a knife fight, and don’t bring a knife to a gun fight.


James

[Cobra Commander]

[

Regarding weapons vs. an unarmed WC man, well this is not a fair comparison. It's like playing tag, can you stop another person from touching you? Very hard unless you run away, and this is the strategy when you face someone that has a weapon and you are unarmed. Unarmed fighting is allot harder as transfer of power to your tools is required to subdue your opponent, timing factors, distance factors. Trying to hit someone unarmed with a 3' long stick is allot easier IMO. Remember, don't bring a pair of gloves to a knife fight, and don’t bring a knife to a gun fight.


James[/QUOTE]



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^
Very well. However, if your Sifu is very efficient in Wing CHun and somehow comes across a weapons based art like Kali or Arnis, and he picks it up to compliment his Wing Chun, would you not want to learn from him his added knowledge? Or would you be stubborn enough to brush aside whatever new knowledge he has? I mean, for the most part a good Sifu would not make such a choice of learning something else unless he feels the benefits and compatibility of that art....

I read somewhere that

"90% of assaults on the streets involve attackers with weapons" would you be prepared?

[sihing]

[

Regarding weapons vs. an unarmed WC man, well this is not a fair comparison. It's like playing tag, can you stop another person from touching you? Very hard unless you run away, and this is the strategy when you face someone that has a weapon and you are unarmed. Unarmed fighting is allot harder as transfer of power to your tools is required to subdue your opponent, timing factors, distance factors. Trying to hit someone unarmed with a 3' long stick is allot easier IMO. Remember, don't bring a pair of gloves to a knife fight, and don’t bring a knife to a gun fight.


James



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^
Very well. However, if your Sifu is very efficient in Wing CHun and somehow comes across a weapons based art like Kali or Arnis, and he picks it up to compliment his Wing Chun, would you not want to learn from him his added knowledge? Or would you be stubborn enough to brush aside whatever new knowledge he has? I mean, for the most part a good Sifu would not make such a choice of learning something else unless he feels the benefits and compatibility of that art....

I read somewhere that

"90% of assaults on the streets involve attackers with weapons" would you be prepared?[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't have any problem with a Sifu of mine that picked something up from another art. One of my Sifu's used the BJD movements and applied them to stick fighting techniques, since most likely you will not have a set of swords on your person on the street. I myself have picked up many things from looking at other arts and how they do things. Being openminded is important.

The thing is people always say things like "Have you ever had a Kali guy pull a real or practice blade on you while you are empty handed?!"
Well, even some of the best fighters around admit they could do nothing much against someone else with a weapon, so to me it is not a fair comparison because the circumstances are not fair, as the other guy has a enormous advantage over you while in possession of a weapon, especially if he's trained in that way of fighting. I know that life is not fair also, but we are here to discuss and compare things Wing Chun related, which is mostly about empty hand fighting, but not exclusively. For me, although I have never trained in a weapon specific MA like Kali or Escrima/Dumog etc..I have seen these arts in action and have picked up little things that may help if attacked while also using a weapon, defanging the snake concept comes to mind...And to me WC is multi useful in that you can adapt the movements while weilding a weapon in your hands.

I would assume, correct me if I'm wrong, that most people assaulting other's use knives which can be concealed very easily, so I ask is anyone prepared for a knife to the throat or gut situation??

James

[Cobra Commander]

[

"90% of assaults on the streets involve attackers with weapons" would you be prepared?[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't have any problem with a Sifu of mine that picked something up from another art. One of my Sifu's used the BJD movements and applied them to stick fighting techniques, since most likely you will not have a set of swords on your person on the street. I myself have picked up many things from looking at other arts and how they do things. Being openminded is important.

The thing is people always say things like "Have you ever had a Kali guy pull a real or practice blade on you while you are empty handed?!"
Well, even some of the best fighters around admit they could do nothing much against someone else with a weapon, so to me it is not a fair comparison because the circumstances are not fair, as the other guy has a enormous advantage over you while in possession of a weapon, especially if he's trained in that way of fighting. I know that life is not fair also, but we are here to discuss and compare things Wing Chun related, which is mostly about empty hand fighting, but not exclusively. For me, although I have never trained in a weapon specific MA like Kali or Escrima/Dumog etc..I have seen these arts in action and have picked up little things that may help if attacked while also using a weapon, defanging the snake concept comes to mind...And to me WC is multi useful in that you can adapt the movements while weilding a weapon in your hands.

I would assume, correct me if I'm wrong, that most people assaulting other's use knives which can be concealed very easily, so I ask is anyone prepared for a knife to the throat or gut situation??

James[/QUOTE]


^^^^ that is exactly my point too. Although it will be unfair in a street situation, having an added arsenal like Kali or something to your already efficient Wing CHun can help.
For those who have ever had a weapon pulled on them, they know what i mean when i say the word "Frozen with anxiety". SOmeone starts punching or hitting you bare handed sure, you will be more prepared mentally and emotionally within that split second because of Wing Chun conditioning. However, the minute your eyes see a blade swinging/slashing/jabbing at you, your brain automatically makes a connection and recognition in regards to what that blade can do to your life! You WILL get cut....

I think having knowledge in something like Kali or Silat would most likely desensatize you to such assaults. I believe a lot of times the fight has already been won/lost the minute it has begun because of the psychological aspect of it all.

As for your question regarding a knife being held to your throat, there is a good chance it would be too late for you if the situation heads in that direction. THough there are things you can do to escape that, the odds are against you. I think one of the principles of WIng Chun and Kali (if I am corrected?) is to not allow it to go that far. Like in WIng Chun, why take a punch or a hit when you can evade/trap/counter to prevent it? Just like in boxing= to hit but not get hit.

Of course with something like in Kali, it takes extensive extensive training and application in order for it to even merely help you get away and stay alive when facing a weapon wielding attacker.

I mean, sciences like Boxing and Wing Chun take time and patience to learn, improve and develop. Picture a combat art that involves knives and swords/sticks; where not only your attacker(s) can cut you but, where you can also cut yourself with YOUR OWN blades!!!

[sihing]

[^^^^ that is exactly my point too. Although it will be unfair in a street situation, having an added arsenal like Kali or something to your already efficient Wing CHun can help.
For those who have ever had a weapon pulled on them, they know what i mean when i say the word "Frozen with anxiety". SOmeone starts punching or hitting you bare handed sure, you will be more prepared mentally and emotionally within that split second because of Wing Chun conditioning. However, the minute your eyes see a blade swinging/slashing/jabbing at you, your brain automatically makes a connection and recognition in regards to what that blade can do to your life! You WILL get cut....

I think having knowledge in something like Kali or Silat would most likely desensatize you to such assaults. I believe a lot of times the fight has already been won/lost the minute it has begun because of the psychological aspect of it all.

As for your question regarding a knife being held to your throat, there is a good chance it would be too late for you if the situation heads in that direction. THough there are things you can do to escape that, the odds are against you. I think one of the principles of WIng Chun and Kali (if I am corrected?) is to not allow it to go that far. Like in WIng Chun, why take a punch or a hit when you can evade/trap/counter to prevent it? Just like in boxing= to hit but not get hit.

Of course with something like in Kali, it takes extensive extensive training and application in order for it to even merely help you get away and stay alive when facing a weapon wielding attacker.

I mean, sciences like Boxing and Wing Chun take time and patience to learn, improve and develop. Picture a combat art that involves knives and swords/sticks; where not only your attacker(s) can cut you but, where you can also cut yourself with YOUR OWN blades!!!

Good post Cobra.

I too have learned the defenses against most all the attacks, and consiously I know what to do, and my body does have a reaction to it, but like you said, when the sh!t hits the fan and you see the blade there, you may freeze with anxiety. And I agree that training with these weapons will give you more of a chance when faced with one. I guess no one can really say what will happen when a situation like a person coming at you with a knife arises, it's up to all of us as individuals to figure out that outcome. You should run, but if that is not a option then fight for your life. You may be able to disarm the assilant but you will more than likely suffer some for it.


James

[Cobra Commander]

Good post Cobra.

I too have learned the defenses against most all the attacks, and consiously I know what to do, and my body does have a reaction to it, but like you said, when the sh!t hits the fan and you see the blade there, you may freeze with anxiety. And I agree that training with these weapons will give you more of a chance when faced with one. I guess no one can really say what will happen when a situation like a person coming at you with a knife arises, it's up to all of us as individuals to figure out that outcome. You should run, but if that is not a option then fight for your life. You may be able to disarm the assilant but you will more than likely suffer some for it.


James


Yeah, thats why i always say it is good to make friends with people like Mike Tyson but not O.j Simpson.....

[Matrix]

To me Wing Chun is flawless, perfect per say, but it is not about that, it is about the fact that it is only us humans that are imperfect. James,
Since Wing Chun was created by humans, who are imperfect as you we can both agree, then the system cannot be perfect. How can imperfect beings create some that is perfect?

[Liddel]

Perfection is a state of MIND, not a state of BEING.

Therefore its totally dependent on the individuals POV.

The results are in........ valahian
2 / 10 Troll attempt.

Your trolling is far from perfect IMO.
:cool:

[anerlich]

dont need other martial arts to complement wing chun, you need it because you are not learning real wing chun.

I don't *need* anything to complement what I do, but I enjoy training in a variety of MA and consider they all have something to offer. I'm looking for knowledge and self-discovery, not to become a cult member.


You are learning to read and write from a 2nd grader while the real teachers are vanishing because of ignorance of people looking to play aerobics with wing chun.

You've got no idea how everyone else on this board trains, from whom they learned, or how proficient they are. You have two ears and one mouth for a reason.

You have to have some knowledge of what others might do to you, at least, if you want to be a proficient. if you go up unarmed against someone reasonably proficient with a short blade using vanilla WC tachniques and a rudimentary knowledge of BJD, you're going to end up with your forearms sliced to ribbons and probably about to bleed out even if you avoid the kill shots. In that case cross training in sprints and developing your aerobic capacity might be a real good idea.

[sihing]

James,
Since Wing Chun was created by humans, who are imperfect as you we can both agree, then the system cannot be perfect. How can imperfect beings create some that is perfect?

Bill,

Theoretically it's perfect and it does provide a answer to any combat situation. Is there a method in Wing Chun to handle grapplers and prevent them from bringing you down? Yes there is. Is there a method of dealing with someone with a weapon, like a knife or bat? Yes there is. The problem has to do with who is using it, and you they are using it against and their skills, not the method it self. Most of the arguements here are really not about the art, but about how well people can use the art, how well they know it. Most people do not put enough time in to use it correctly. And even the one's that have, the possiblility of a mistake is still there because like you said Bill, we are imperfect beings. So to me even though we are imperfect beings, we are still able to develop perfect things, like tools for building/developing things that we need or methods of fighting. How the tools are used by the person using them is the key factor.

To me something perfect does not mean it cannot be improved upon because of better technology or knowledge. The first car was perfect until we found out how to build more perfect cars. The same happened with WC IMO, generation after generation added on more knowledge and wisdom, making it better for us now. Whether or not this is happening much today I don't know, as most are using the art instead of contributing to it's development and improvement. I do know some that are doing this though.

per·fect ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pûrfkt)
adj.
1)Lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature or kind.
2)Being without defect or blemish: a perfect specimen.
3)Thoroughly skilled or talented in a certain field or area; proficient.
4)Completely suited for a particular purpose or situation: She was the perfect actress for the part.
5)
-Completely corresponding to a description, standard, or type: a perfect circle; a perfect gentleman.
-Accurately reproducing an original: a perfect copy of the painting.
6)Complete; thorough; utter: a perfect fool.
7)Pure; undiluted; unmixed: perfect red.
8)Excellent and delightful in all respects: a perfect day.
9)Botany. Having both stamens and pistils in the same flower; monoclinous.
10)Grammar. Of, relating to, or constituting a verb form expressing action completed prior to a fixed point of reference in time.
11)Music. Designating the three basic intervals of the octave, fourth, and fifth.



JR

[Matrix]

Theoretically it's perfect and it does provide a answer to any combat situation. James,

I hear what you're saying, and see your point.

I'm all for the idea of striving to perfect our skills, realizing that perfection itself is unattainable. Perfectionism can in fact be counter-productive.

[sihing]

James,

I hear what you're saying, and see your point.

I'm all for the idea of striving to perfect our skills, realizing that perfection itself is unattainable. Perfectionism can in fact be counter-productive.

I agree..We should try to be perfect in practice as the intensity in practice is never as high as in a real situation (fight how you train right..), unless your a nut:cool:

There was a student in Calgary once, I think he suffered from the perfectionism thing and quit due to that problem. He was very skilled but was always holding back, I could see it in him, and when he found out that he wasn't perfect all the time he left....His loss.

[anerlich]

To quote a celebrated coach, "Performance overrides precision" ...

and probably perfection as well.

[Mr Punch]

This thread is short of bus.

[valahian]

I never claimed WC can defeat an experienced kali fighter with a blade. I would go as far as to say that once the blade is out, there will be blood no matter who is fighting whom. I was speaking about empty hands combat. And I stand by my comments, but you are right - when the student is ready the teacher will appear - thats why I said what I said. I am not a profesional fighter, but from what Ive seen in the past few years about how WC goes to new lows brought on by so called "grandmasters" makes me say these things. Also JKD is not WC. JKD is WC for those who dont undertand WC. And yes, most of the WC clips I see from different schools on the internet are ridiculous, stances that are 80%-20%, karate punches, etc. I feel sorry for those guys who are blowing money away for a false sense of security. I dont blame them for looking at different arts in order to learn something useful. Good luck to you all.

[Cobra Commander]

I never claimed WC can defeat an experienced kali fighter with a blade. I would go as far as to say that once the blade is out, there will be blood no matter who is fighting whom. I was speaking about empty hands combat. And I stand by my comments, but you are right - when the student is ready the teacher will appear - thats why I said what I said. I am not a profesional fighter, but from what Ive seen in the past few years about how WC goes to new lows brought on by so called "grandmasters" makes me say these things. Also JKD is not WC. JKD is WC for those who dont undertand WC. And yes, most of the WC clips I see from different schools on the internet are ridiculous, stances that are 80%-20%, karate punches, etc. I feel sorry for those guys who are blowing money away for a false sense of security. I dont blame them for looking at different arts in order to learn something useful. Good luck to you all.


What do you think of a boxer's punch? Do you think its weak? by the way, if you pit Chuck Norris against Mike Tyson or Evander Holyfield or Lennox Lewis who do you think would win? :)

As for Wing Chun, there are many capable Sifu's and instructors out there who have developed a solid grasp of the system and have added bits and pieces of other sciences into their already enlightened knowledge.
I've for the most part have heard of experienced or skilled Wing CHun Sifu's either cross training in Filipino weapons (mostly knife) arts and stuff like Western boxing or picking up bits and pieces of the above mentioned sciences. Don't know why but I've seen that more common than anything else.

Don't hear of too many W.C sifu's learning stuff from Muay Thai though, don't know why...

[valahian]

I would say most likely to win Lenox, but in a fight there are also social implications so its not that simple. Most people Ive seen punching in WC are doing it wrong by the way it looks like some sort of back punch and looks like they are hurting their elbows by overextending the arm upwards. If you want to check your WC punch have somebody push against it while you are punching to see how wrong youre doing it. The boxing punch is strong but so is the karate punch, the question is can you land it?

[lawrenceofidaho]

if you pit Chuck Norris against.... Lennox Lewis who do you think would win? :)
My money is on Chuck to win by submission in ninety-nine times out of a hundred fights.

Chuck probably throws a few leg kicks from outside of Lewis' jab range, then shoots a single-leg when the opportunity presents itself. Next, he either goes immediately to a leg / ankle lock for the win, *or* obtains full mount / side mount and pounds away until Lennox gives up his arm or back to seal Chuck's victory......

Were talkin about Chuck 'F--in' Norris here, (not some joker who runs the karate classes at McDojo in the local stripmall). The man has phenomenal striking skills, a black belt in Machado Jiu Jitsu, and years of competitive experience. He's not going to sit in range and try to outpunch Lennox, -he'll take him out of his one-dimensional game and own Lennox where he's absolutely clueless -on the ground.

Lennox would never be given a chance to use his size advantage or his superior punching technique. Chuck is waaaaay too smart to let that happen.

(If Lennox started training with a good MA coach, however, he might stand a chance against Chuck after a year or so.)

[anerlich]

Most people Ive seen punching in WC are doing it wrong by the way

You sound like you haven't been out and about much (the "know it all" attitude being something of a dead giveaway), so why would anyone regard your opinion as having any weight?


JKD is WC for those who dont undertand WC.

You are ignorant on this subject (along, I suspect, with a number of others). JKD these days has nothing to do with WC. Good JKD is Matt Thornton (among others), he doesn't do ANY WC.

[valahian]

You are correct, JKD has nothing to do with WC. And youre probably right, I havent been around much and Im no professional fighter. I am just saying that a lot of WC teachers out there are misleading people into a false sense of security, teaching bad WC. Why are they calling themselves grandmaster? How do they prove that? By how much crap they teach? I havent seen one WC artist on the web punching correctly, it looks like some sort of back fist punching, overextending their arms and hurting their elbows. Oh but they can punch 8 times a second? LOL. I wonder if they can hurt a fly with those...And by the way it would be hard in street fight after one's been punched or elbowed in the wind pipe to roll around on the concrete for 10 minutes trying to pull out a technique. Im not involving knifes or guns in this fight. My one cent. :)

[sihing]

You are correct, JKD has nothing to do with WC. And youre probably right, I havent been around much and Im no professional fighter. I am just saying that a lot of WC teachers out there are misleading people into a false sense of security, teaching bad WC. Why are they calling themselves grandmaster? How do they prove that? By how much crap they teach? I havent seen one WC artist on the web punching correctly, it looks like some sort of back fist punching, overextending their arms and hurting their elbows. Oh but they can punch 8 times a second? LOL. I wonder if they can hurt a fly with those...And by the way it would be hard in street fight after one's been punched or elbowed in the wind pipe to roll around on the concrete for 10 minutes trying to pull out a technique. Im not involving knifes or guns in this fight. My one cent. :)

Valahian,

You should heed some advice, and not be so quick to judge. I used to do what you are doing now, looking at other's WC and see all sorts of things supposedly wrong. I thought I knew it all, but then I went out to meet some of these people, and was shown how effective their WC was. Do not judge dude, just go out and experience what other's have to offer. It may be different from what you are learning but that doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong.

Regarding "Grandmasters", who cares. What people call themselves has no reflection on anyone else, so my advice to you would be to train more and worry less about what other's are doing.

James

[Cobra Commander]

My money is on Chuck to win by submission in ninety-nine times out of a hundred fights.

Chuck probably throws a few leg kicks from outside of Lewis' jab range, then shoots a single-leg when the opportunity presents itself. Next, he either goes immediately to a leg / ankle lock for the win, *or* obtains full mount / side mount and pounds away until Lennox gives up his arm or back to seal Chuck's victory......

Were talkin about Chuck 'F--in' Norris here, (not some joker who runs the karate classes at McDojo in the local stripmall). The man has phenomenal striking skills, a black belt in Machado Jiu Jitsu, and years of competitive experience. He's not going to sit in range and try to outpunch Lennox, -he'll take him out of his one-dimensional game and own Lennox where he's absolutely clueless -on the ground.

Lennox would never be given a chance to use his size advantage or his superior punching technique. Chuck is waaaaay too smart to let that happen.

(If Lennox started training with a good MA coach, however, he might stand a chance against Chuck after a year or so.)






I don't know about Lewis but, I see Mike Tyson more of a guy who seems to more likely take up something like Wing Chun or Muay Thai. Maybe even some Filipino weapons art.
Tyson's whole mentality on fighting is "Street and Raw". I think Tyson would do very well in an art/science that focuses on close quarter range and teaches some legs.

Maybe thats why Tyson is travelling the world? To learn other martial arts and sciences? I remember he was serious about that whole Bob Sapp incident and, he probably figured he only has an advantage over Sapp in boxing hand to hand combat. If a person knew how to effectively use his/her legs on a boxer, perhaps even Tyson would have a hard time?

I wonder if Tyson is training in something else right now that would redevelop his punching skills while also teaching him the basics of leg work???

[lawrenceofidaho]

You should heed some advice, and not be so quick to judge. I used to do what you are doing now, looking at other's WC and see all sorts of things supposedly wrong. I thought I knew it all, but then I went out to meet some of these people, and was shown how effective their WC was. Do not judge dude, just go out and experience what other's have to offer. It may be different from what you are learning but that doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong.

Regarding "Grandmasters", who cares. What people call themselves has no reflection on anyone else, so my advice to you would be to train more and worry less about what other's are doing.

James
Can I get an 'Amen', bruthas and sistas??

AMEN!

[Self]

Okay, I have been a student of Wing Chun out of California for a while now and I understand the viewpoint of Valahian. I do see fundamental flaws in certain Wing Chun teachings but they only come out in a fighting situation. I think all of us see things like that and think, "Wow he should really keep his elbow in" and so forth. But I also understand the aspect of over-judgement and how it is important to avoid. How can I drink from their cup if mine is full?

Also regarding the idea of perfection: Only through the mind is perfection possible. I can write the formula for a perfect circle, but give me a pencil an I will draw the ugliest square thing you could ever see. Do you see my meaning? On another note, this is my first post and I am glad to join a board with some intelligent people on it so hello to all of you.


-Aaron

[anerlich]

And by the way it would be hard in street fight

Spare us, I doubt you know any more about street fighting than you do about WC.

Kind of hard to do good chain punches, bon sao's or anything else after a good throat shot.

Read Marc MacYoung's "Taking it to the streets" to find out why aspiring to be a good streetfighter makes about as much sense as trying to become famous for paedophilia.

Sihing gave you good advice. Don't be so quick to judge what others do until you've been around a hell of a lot longer.

I think the "grandmaster" mentality is a whole lot of poppy**** too, FWIW, but judging people's skill and knowledge based on a few seconds of video footage is foolish.

Try to respect the intelligence of your audience (i.e. many of them know lots more about this than you do) or run the risk of being pelted by them with rotten fruit.

[Matrix]

Can I get an 'Amen', bruthas and sistas??
Hey Lawrence,
I'll give you an Amen.

I don't know what James is drinking ;) , but I think we could all use a shot.
Good on you James. Nice post.

[Matrix]

Were talkin about Chuck 'F--in' Norris here, (not some joker who runs the karate classes at McDojo in the local stripmall). The man has phenomenal striking skills, a black belt in Machado Jiu Jitsu, and years of competitive experience. .........Hey Lawrence,
Since you're such a big Chuck Norris fan, I thought you might enjoy this clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAc1G3u-hxs&feature=MostReferred&page=3&t=t&f=b). :D

And here's another Chuck Norris fact list (http://www.chucknorrisfacts.com/). :p

[Liddel]

[B]Were talkin about Chuck 'F--in' Norris here, (not some joker who runs the karate classes at McDojo in the local stripmall). The man has phenomenal striking skills, a black belt in Machado Jiu Jitsu, and years of competitive experience.

Call it bro !

I understand people want to dog on the man now days - and walker texas ranger hasnt helped fight that stigma.

Correct me if im worng, But the man was 7 times world karate champion, back in the days when it was BARE KNUCKLE FIGHTING, before the safety concious powers that be, added gloves and whole lot of rules to make it SAFER :mad:

:cool:

[anerlich]

Chuck was, and by all accounts still is, a great MAist. Like Dan Inosanto, he's never stopped wanting to learn more about MA and never stopped training.

He's a better actor than the Governator, too ;)

[lawrenceofidaho]

Chuck was, and by all accounts still is, a great MAist. Like Dan Inosanto, he's never stopped wanting to learn more about MA and never stopped training.
These guys were already respected [masters] over two decades ago, but have not wasted the past 20 years growing stale by repeating the same training regimins over and over. They both put on white belts and stepped on to the mats to learn Machado Jiu Jitsu in the 90's, and have persevered to earn their black belts. They train with a variety of other martial artists of *ALL* backgrounds, and you'll never hear them utter words like "best style", etc....

Props to Dan and Chuck.

[Matrix]

If you look at the clip that I posted, you can see that Chuck Norris seems to be having fun with all of this. He certainly doesn't seem to take himself, or this super-human persona, too seriously. I think that's great.

[Cobra Commander]

So you guys are saying Chuck Norris would beat Mike Tyson up with not even a sweat?

Wow he must be very good than...

[lawrenceofidaho]

If you look at the clip that I posted, you can see that Chuck Norris seems to be having fun with all of this. He certainly doesn't seem to take himself, or this super-human persona, too seriously. I think that's great.
He's not trying to convince anyone that he's something he isn't for ego and / or marketing purposes. (ala; Segal, Van Damme, or 'Grandmaster' _______)

Seems like a good human being.

[valahian]

So I guess second grade teachers are still good to learn WC from, now we talk about Chuck Norris and what a good human he is, lol. WC is a perfect art for those who understand it, but if YOUR cup is full you cant even hear what Im saying but change the subject to knife fighting, how ignorant I am, Chuck Norris and so on. If that brings you on the real path of WC more power to you. This was my last post, so good luck to you all in all your endeavours. :)

[anerlich]

if YOUR cup is full you cant even hear what Im saying

Pot, kettle, black.

[Matrix]

but if YOUR cup is full you cant even hear what Im saying but change the subject to knife fighting, how ignorant I am, Chuck Norris and so on. If that brings you on the real path of WC more power to you.
We can hear you, but maybe what you have to say isn't as interesting as YOU think it is. Conversations evolve. That's life at KFO. :D