How effective are Martial Arts in Self Defence

[masterblaster12]

I truly believe the best defence is a Gun.
1 You dont know if Opponent is stronger than you.
2 You dont know if he is Armed
3 You dont know his pain tolerance
4 You dont know if he is on Drugs like steriods = Steriod Rage, PCP = No Pain etc.
5 He may be a Total Psychopath

Which Martial Art for Realistic Street Defence .
Well I would chose a combination of the following:
Krav Maga Excellent Disarming Techniques in very Dangerouse situations.
Military Unarmed Combat Teaches you to survive kill or be killed techniques no messing about.
Jeet Kune Do yes can be a good system provided you have good instructors who train towards realistic self defence & mental toughness.
Wing Chun Yes Combat Wing Chun is excellent but again only would join class whose aims are teaching you street defence and showing you how to Disarm Attackers.
Muay Thai & Kyokushinkai Karate the only two Hard Contact Martial Arts that I truly respect as both arts can & will teach you how to give & recieve punishment but I would still add Krav Maga Disarming Techniques to all Martial Arts to complete your system towards realistic Street fighting techniques.
Grappling Excellent to learn as most fights go to the Ground.
I recomend Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Gene Lebells Jiu Jitsu System, Sombo, Judo, Jiu Jitsu & Even Aikido.
But Grappling on its own is useless if ambushed by a Gang. You must learn Grappling & Striking combined to be a total effective fighter. Also Disarming Techniques if in the street. I know many Martial Artist who have frozen when confronting Knife Stick Chain or any other number of weapons.
Remember the way you train is the way you react in a fight.
Knowledge = Power.
As for Tae Kwon Do or Shotokan well I wish you luck in a Street encounter.

[PangQuan]

I truly believe the best defence is a Gun.
1 You dont know if Opponent is stronger than you.
2 You dont know if he is Armed
3 You dont know his pain tolerance
4 You dont know if he is on Drugs like steriods = Steriod Rage, PCP = No Pain etc.
5 He may be a Total Psychopath

Which Martial Art for Realistic Street Defence .
Well I would chose a combination of the following:
Krav Maga Excellent Disarming Techniques in very Dangerouse situations.
Military Unarmed Combat Teaches you to survive kill or be killed techniques no messing about.
Jeet Kune Do yes can be a good system provided you have good instructors who train towards realistic self defence & mental toughness.
Wing Chun Yes Combat Wing Chun is excellent but again only would join class whose aims are teaching you street defence and showing you how to Disarm Attackers.
Muay Thai & Kyokushinkai Karate the only two Hard Contact Martial Arts that I truly respect as both arts can & will teach you how to give & recieve punishment but I would still add Krav Maga Disarming Techniques to all Martial Arts to complete your system towards realistic Street fighting techniques.
Grappling Excellent to learn as most fights go to the Ground.
I recomend Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Gene Lebells Jiu Jitsu System, Sombo, Judo, Jiu Jitsu & Even Aikido.
But Grappling on its own is useless if ambushed by a Gang. You must learn Grappling & Striking combined to be a total effective fighter. Also Disarming Techniques if in the street. I know many Martial Artist who have frozen when confronting Knife Stick Chain or any other number of weapons.
Remember the way you train is the way you react in a fight.
Knowledge = Power.
As for Tae Kwon Do or Shotokan well I wish you luck in a Street encounter.

i would say each martial art has something to offer. you just have to know what your after. if it is strictly self defense of the un armed nature, any style that is being correctly represented by the instructor will have something to offer.

from there it is all personal preference and research.

i agree, today's best defense is a gun. but thats not always a likely scenario either.

the best any of us can do is train hard and see what happens.

[masterblaster12]

I think most Martial Arts Schools today teach garbage in regards self defence.
The only true way to know if your skills are going to work on a street fight is if one you have excellent cardio vascular two you are extremely aggressive three you are in good physical shape that means bag work sparring flexibility grappling techniques muay thai kickboxing & lots of disarming techniques.
Train with body armour & helmet get a student to attack you with knife stick & baseball bat practice various disarming techniques. As for disarming a Gun thats Hollywood yes there are techniques but one squeeze of the trigger and you can kiss your life goodbye.
Also body must be conditioned to take impact you must be able to take kicks & punches to the stomach . Also using head protection get used to taking blows to the head. Running is also excellent do roadwork so you dont get out of breath in a fight. Yeah train hard but train smart if the Martial Artist just practises Katas & Stupid flowery movements he or she wont last 5 seconds in a street confrontation.
Simple train to totally destroy your attacker. No mercy fighting techniques. There is no referee to stop the fight in the street or protect you. Street = No Rules.
When your attacker is in the floor dont stop kicking & punching until the attacker is out cold if he gets up you could be in trouble.
Learn to break bones using both grappling & striking techniques combined.
If you practice Wing Chun also add Grappling & Disarming Techniques to your arsenal. Thats how you have a chance. Myself I rather shoot the Punk.

[Kapten Klutz]

You might want to think about another issue which is not going to jail because of excessive force.

[PangQuan]

if someone has a gun, i give them what they want willingly.

if they have a blade or stick, i fight, depending on the individual, and whether there is a group or just one person.

the gun = permit, license, and a concealed weapon permit to have authorized usage.

not to mention you will have to justify any reasons why you were required to use your fire arm, in a court of law.

[Cobra Commander]

if someone has a gun, i give them what they want willingly.

if they have a blade or stick, i fight, depending on the individual, and whether there is a group or just one person.

the gun = permit, license, and a concealed weapon permit to have authorized usage.

not to mention you will have to justify any reasons why you were required to use your fire arm, in a court of law.


LOL if someone had a blade OR a gun, i'd say I stand the chance of becoming seriously hurt or dead. Thats just being honest.

SO I'd do my best to give them what they want, unless of course it was my manhood lol!

But seriously, I'd say a blade can be a very dangerous tool even if your attacker is not experienced with it. Thats what Sifu taught me.

[PangQuan]

a gun of course.

a blade can be a dangerous tool, i just have this thing about me.

if someone tries to use oppresion against me or anyone else, if i have a chance to serve, them i will.


depends on the blade of course, but there is an old saying, sheathing the sword.

you take a hit to drop your man. ill take a cut or shank purposefully on many parts of my body to finish my assailant.

on that note however, if i venture into hoods where things like this go down, i always have my own blade.

im not too worried about knifes as it would be a knife fight, guns are different.

you have to be realistic in a knife encounter. chances are you WILL be cut or stabbed. a high chance.

with that in mind you have to plan ahead and get hit where YOU want it, but with correct follow up.

of course if i have someone with me, ill just play along, if im alone though...eye of the tiger baby.

in this age, people shy away from using knives to hold people up. guns are too easy to get.

[Cobra Commander]

a gun of course.

a blade can be a dangerous tool, i just have this thing about me.

if someone tries to use oppresion against me or anyone else, if i have a chance to serve, them i will.


depends on the blade of course, but there is an old saying, sheathing the sword.

you take a hit to drop your man. ill take a cut or shank purposefully on many parts of my body to finish my assailant.

on that note however, if i venture into hoods where things like this go down, i always have my own blade.

im not too worried about knifes as it would be a knife fight, guns are different.

you have to be realistic in a knife encounter. chances are you WILL be cut or stabbed. a high chance.

with that in mind you have to plan ahead and get hit where YOU want it, but with correct follow up.

of course if i have someone with me, ill just play along, if im alone though...eye of the tiger baby.

in this age, people shy away from using knives to hold people up. guns are too easy to get.


That is true. It IS possible to beat a guy down who has a blade. You can hit him a dozen times and even knock him out but, what if he cuts you a few times or even once in a vital area and you bleed to death later while he regains conciousness in a hospital? Just a scenario, not trying to butt heads with you lol. :p

[PangQuan]

no i totally get what your saying.

i would only attack a guy weilding a knife, if i had at my disposal a means of killing or incapasitating him quickly. a blade of my own, or a bludgeoning tool.

but keep in mind, i generally carry a weapon everywhere i go. from a knife to a pair of nunchaku.

on my way to and from class i always have a 6' ratan staff. or as i like to call it, the ol' bone breaker.

[dwid]

You have to consider that a gun isn't the holy grail of self defense.

Don't get me wrong. I have a permit and I carry, but when sh!t jumps off, there are issues of being able to draw and retain. You need to exercise a certain level of vigilance in order to see a threat before it invades your space, at which point, drawing and retaining are substantially more likely to be compromised.

So, while a gun may be as good a defense as you can get, I look at it as a piece and not the entirety of my personal protection.

As far as legal issues go, you're more likely to go to jail for beating someone than for shooting them if you follow the law and don't pull your gun unless your life is seriously threatened. Let me give an example to illustrate from a case that actually happened here in Columbus.

A guy wakes up in the middle of the night to noises in his house. He is on the second floor and hears people on the first floor. He grabs a bat and catches the first of two burglars off-guard. The perp was armed with a shotgun and so the guy hit him with the bat until he went down, and maybe a few more times until he seemed incapacitated. He then grabs the shotgun and shoots the other guy. I believe both burglars died. However, he was only charged with the first assault, as even though the fight was bat vs. shotgun, it was deemed that hitting the guy as many times as he did was excessive force, whereas he only shot the other guy once - not excessive.

If you carry, even legally, you may well find yourself having to go to court over shooting someone, but you will be no worse off (and quite possibly better off) than if you beat the sh!t out of someone or cut/stab them. The law is funny that way.

[Cobra Commander]

You have to consider that a gun isn't the holy grail of self defense.

Don't get me wrong. I have a permit and I carry, but when sh!t jumps off, there are issues of being able to draw and retain. You need to exercise a certain level of vigilance in order to see a threat before it invades your space, at which point, drawing and retaining are substantially more likely to be compromised.

So, while a gun may be as good a defense as you can get, I look at it as a piece and not the entirety of my personal protection.

As far as legal issues go, you're more likely to go to jail for beating someone than for shooting them if you follow the law and don't pull your gun unless your life is seriously threatened. Let me give an example to illustrate from a case that actually happened here in Columbus.

A guy wakes up in the middle of the night to noises in his house. He is on the second floor and hears people on the first floor. He grabs a bat and catches the first of two burglars off-guard. The perp was armed with a shotgun and so the guy hit him with the bat until he went down, and maybe a few more times until he seemed incapacitated. He then grabs the shotgun and shoots the other guy. I believe both burglars died. However, he was only charged with the first assault, as even though the fight was bat vs. shotgun, it was deemed that hitting the guy as many times as he did was excessive force, whereas he only shot the other guy once - not excessive.

If you carry, even legally, you may well find yourself having to go to court over shooting someone, but you will be no worse off (and quite possibly better off) than if you beat the sh!t out of someone or cut/stab them. The law is funny that way.


The law only works for Mike Tyson, who can literally at the drop of a hat exit his vehicle enraged and,
beat the living daylights out of you or me and get away with it.
Hell he can even throw in some knee blast to your testicles and headbutt you. Add a lethal bite to your thigh or ears and he gets cuffed the same week and, the next week he'll be having his photo's taken with some pretty women in Brazil.

On the other hand, I'm sure if Mike Tyson was shooting people from a roof top or committing drivebye's, he'd be either serving a triple life sentence or be facing the death penalty.

Yeah the law IS FUNNY.

[Samurai Jack]

I'm not all that certain that a gun represents the best defensive value for most self-defense situations. In cases where your opponent isn't threatening lethal force i.e. armed with a knife or gun, then YOUR weapon represents a serious liability.

For example, if you draw your weapon against an unarmed assailant and the moron dosen't back down (seen this happen in my youth), what the hell do you do? Shoot him? What if you shoot him accidentally? It's happened before. Either way, that's murder in the eyes of any court. And if he starts fighting you and you haven't drawn your weapon, how much harder is it to fight him while keeping him from taking your gun? Not to mention what happens if he succeeds in grabbing it.

The only time you'd want your gun IMO, is if your opponent has one. In which case you're pretty screwed anyway because you stand a very good chance of being killed or accidentally killing a bystander should you choose to deploy your weapon rather than just meet his demands.

Just playing devil's advocate...

[dwid]

Well, I'll be honest. I don't get into brawls. I haven't been in a for real fight (outside of the gym) since Junior High School.

Any situation in which I am being physically assaulted and I cannot get away is a situation in which lethal force would be justifiable in my mind. People die or are permanently disabled from complications from unarmed assaults all the time. Furthermore, people often survive being shot, so you can't assume that just because you shoot some guy, he's going to die.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who puts the lives of me or those I love in danger, whether wielding a weapon or not, is doing so at great personal risk.

Finally, while the argument about having a good chance of being killed or killing a bystander simply doesn't hold up. Show me the statistics on people who legally carry firearms accidentally shooting themselves or others. It doesn't happen. Furthermore, cops get in gunfights all the time without injuring bystanders or being killed themselves, and cops are by and large some of the worst shots imaginable. I spend more time at the shooting range than the vast majority of police officers do. Use common sense, good judgment, gun safety, and be ever mindful of your lines of fire, and it's highly unlikely you'll shoot anyone you don't intend to.

[Kapten Klutz]

Use common sense, good judgment, gun safety, and be ever mindful of your lines of fire, and it's highly unlikely you'll shoot anyone you don't intend to.

Have you ever tested this when the bad guys were also shooting at you?

[dwid]

The point is, that it's not a given that you're going to kill some innocent bystander or get shot yourself. No, I've never been under fire, and I hope that I never am. I hope I'm never in a situation where I have to choose between injuring or killing another human being or being injured or killed myself. It's a terrible position to be in. Even police officers and soldiers are traumatized when they have to take a life - it's a terrible thing.

However, I'm not going to let the fear of unpredictable outcomes in such a scenario keep me from taking steps to protect myself and those I love. The point I was trying to make was that perhaps Samurai Jack was a bit extreme in his predictions about the likely outcomes of having to use a firearm to protect yourself. As I stated early in this thread, I agree that firearms aren't the be-all end-all solution to every self-defense problem. However, I do believe they are an important component to practical self-defense. It is simply naiive to believe that you can counter every attack scenario with empty hand tech's or melee weapons. Guns are a reality of the modern era, and people ignore this reality at their peril.

[Crushing Fist]

what I've been told...




It's better to be tried by 12 than to be carried by 6





the real question is how will we defend ourselves from the road warrior zombies?




on the topic of the thread:

every advantage you can get helps

MA are one of those advantages

but only if you train consistantly and realistically

a false sense of security and/or superiority can be a serious liability.

[dwid]

what I've been told...




It's better to be tried by 12 than to be carried by 6





the real question is how will we defend ourselves from the road warrior zombies?




on the topic of the thread:

every advantage you can get helps

MA are one of those advantages

but only if you train consistantly and realistically

a false sense of security and/or superiority can be a serious liability.


Thanks Crushing Fist. I'm glad that at least two of us on KFO can at least keep it real and always bring it back to the apocalyptic duo of road warrior/zombies. :D

We must be forever vigilant against this threat. This is why we train.

Regarding the serious portion of your post, you managed to say what I've been trying to say in fewer words and perhaps more clearly. The judged by 12, carried by 6 thing is something my last bagua instructor used to quote frequently. It bears repeating.

[masterblaster12]

I had a carry conceal Permit in the USA when I lived in Texas its no big deal to obtain one. Anyway Iam enclosing a link with all the info.
Remember to say you feared for your life those are they key words in court.
Link below:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_(USA)

[Kapten Klutz]

The judged by 12, carried by 6 thing is something my last bagua instructor used to quote frequently. It bears repeating.

On the other hand judged by 12 can really suck if it means time in a state prison. Very, very bad result. I'd rather lose my wallet and cell and get smacked around than end up in a heIIhole like that.

[Banjos_dad]

I truly believe the best defence is a Gun

invariably when people tell me this, and i ask what kind if gun they are carrying at that moment...lol you all know the rest :D err, well uh, it's in my car, i didn't bring it today, etc....

that's about all the time i can rationalize wasting on this baiting troll crap.
i think if you had a gun people would just take it away from you and perhaps jam it up your pooper... lol. whereas if you learned kung fu, no one could take it away and kick your own butt with it lmao.

[Crushing Fist]

On the other hand judged by 12 can really suck if it means time in a state prison. Very, very bad result. I'd rather lose my wallet and cell and get smacked around than end up in a heIIhole like that.



but would you rather be dead?

[Hard Fists]

People like to talk trash about Taekwondo (sp) all the time, but many of them don't know what they are talking about. I never trained it, but there is a school that many of my friends attended and it was no joke. I think that when people talk trash they must be referring to the mcdojo aspect of Korean martial arts. In fact, some of the toughest guys I knew back then were training at Master Choi's school in DC. I seem to remember them kicking a lot of a$$. A couple of years ago I had a discussion with a budy that trains at that school and we broke into some of the basics down-his technique seemed pretty solid...The guy can fight, and so can his Master. People used to challenge Master Choi a lot---and get beat a lot in the 80s. People keep trying to classify one art as more deadly or better than another....bottom line: if you can fight, you can fight. If you train to fight in different senarios, you'll be better at fighting in those senarios. If all you do is hit pads and yell in class, then you may get your a$$ kicked before you take your training seriously. I've seen people do some pretty amazing things from lots of different arts. One just needs to have the ability to adjust, adapt, train, and implement knowledge.

[tjwingchun]

Well what a bag of worms!

Coming from the UK, if I carry a gun, knife or weapon I get locked up, simple fact, so I do not have the luxury or option or of carrying anything apart from what is naturally part of my body.

Cannot argue with the 5 statements that need discussion:-

1 You dont know if Opponent is stronger than you.
2 You dont know if he is Armed
3 You dont know his pain tolerance
4 You dont know if he is on Drugs like steriods = Steriod Rage, PCP = No Pain etc.
5 He may be a Total Psychopath

Essentially we never know the level of violence that we are going to be faced with until it happens, unless you are a NHB fighter who not only knows weeks ahead that they are having a fight, they know the size, ability and some of the time the techniques the opponent prefers, and then when the fight starts they are 20 feet apart! The luxury, in my experience most street fight start from about 2 feet.

There has been alot of commonsense talked and though some have opposing ideological attitudes the general thread seems to be reality and practicality, as far as the law is concerned a few years ago a ex-army lad came to my door when I was out and threatened to put a gun to the baby-sitters boyfriend, infront of my girlfriends 8 year old daughter, not once but twice in the same evening, the police were called but nothing was done. I went to see him to ask him what he thought he was doing petrifying a young girl, he refused to open the door, I opened it, and when I went to talk to him he went for me but 3-4 slaps left him crying like the failed bully always does. I was done for assault and in court they took my 30+ years martial arts experience into account, knowing what I could have done but did not, and was fined £50.

The moral of the tale is everybody is allowed reasonable use of force, but if you are jumping up and down on their heads when the police turn up expect the book thrown at you.

Take care out there and keep smiling lol.

Trevor

[Mr Punch]

what I've been told...




It's better to be tried by 12 than to be carried by 6It's better to be carried by six than be Big Bubba's b**ch!

People throw around this quote like they've thought about what it would mean to even spend one year in a maximum security prison. Only one year...?! I agree with the sentiment, but I7d rather adopt a more sensible motto, like something about not being there...
the real question is how will we defend ourselves from the road warrior zombies?This kind of nonsense has no business on a serious thread like this... 'sides we could just leave it to our preprogrammed zombie ninja pirate kong robot.
on the topic of the thread:

every advantage you can get helps

MA are one of those advantages

but only if you train consistantly and realistically

a false sense of security and/or superiority can be a serious liability.
Excellently put.

Hard Fists is right about some TKD.

TJWC is right about the laws in many places... and the responsibility we have to face.


I was done for assault and in court they took my 30+ years martial arts experience into account, knowing what I could have done but did notUnfortunately they didn't know you had 30+ years experience in wing chun, so they didn't know 3-4 slaps was about the maximum limit of your skills...! :D

Joking! :cool:

[SevenStar]

I'm not all that certain that a gun represents the best defensive value for most self-defense situations. In cases where your opponent isn't threatening lethal force i.e. armed with a knife or gun, then YOUR weapon represents a serious liability.

For example, if you draw your weapon against an unarmed assailant and the moron dosen't back down (seen this happen in my youth), what the hell do you do? Shoot him? What if you shoot him accidentally? It's happened before. Either way, that's murder in the eyes of any court. And if he starts fighting you and you haven't drawn your weapon, how much harder is it to fight him while keeping him from taking your gun? Not to mention what happens if he succeeds in grabbing it.

The only time you'd want your gun IMO, is if your opponent has one. In which case you're pretty screwed anyway because you stand a very good chance of being killed or accidentally killing a bystander should you choose to deploy your weapon rather than just meet his demands.

Just playing devil's advocate...

another thing to think about is the time it takes to draw the gun. I saw a study somewhere that read to the effect of, from 20 feet or less, knife vs gun, the knife will usually win if the gun isn't already drawn. given that statistic, I would guess that it's the same for gun vs ASP. coincidentally, over the weekend, a guy claimed to have a gun (he didn't), but he was grabbed by someone from behind and I had drawn my baton before he even finished pulling his hand from under his shirt. Had I hit him, he woulda been KOed before he was even close to drawing his gun - I was within 20 feet of him, and it's a 21' extendable baton.

[Pork Chop]

I was within 20 feet of him, and it's a 21' extendable baton.

21 foot extendable baton? :eek:
Mine's only a foot long. :D

[Iron_Fisted_TKD]

As for Tae Kwon Do ... well I wish you luck in a Street encounter.

Ok... you obviously don't know anything about tae Kwon Do. Please do not talk about martial arts that you do not know about.

Tae Kwon Do is actually one of the best martial arts for street defense. Tae Kwon Do uses mainly kicks (of course) and in street fighting that doesn't change. Against in-experienced fighters, High kicks really do own. They get kicked in the chest and head, while trying to attack you with their fists. It is actually really amusing. Against experienced/professional fighters, low kicks must be used. Saying that Tae Kwon Do is not good for street fighting obviously comes from the mouth of someone who has not had their femur/ankle/knee snapped in half by a low side/front/round kick.

:rolleyes: Idiot. Feet hit harder, and have more range than any other weapon in the arsenal of the human body.

I am (by no means) putting tae Kwon Do above any other martial art. I am, however, saying that Tae Kwon Do is very appropriate for street self defense. Just because a few stupid ATA Tae Kwon Do black-belts suck balls, does not mean that more serious Tae Kwon Do people also suck balls.

Observe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkdzGLWIdOA&search=tae%20kwon%20do%20tornado%20kick
http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/16408/Kickboxing_Knockout.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS8vvlKgzPQ&search=tae%20kwon%20do%20taekwondo%20karate%20kyok ushin%20kickboxing%20wtf%20olympic
Little guy takes down a big guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMp13KOvaQA&search=tae%20kwon%20do
TKD VS Kyokushin Karate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkHuXhH0J7w&search=tae%20kwon%20do%20taekwondo%20karate%20kyok ushin%20kickboxing%20wtf%20olympic

Yeah so... shut the f!ck up because I have won street fights against people who use Wing Chun and Muy Thai. In my opinion, Wing Chun focuses too much on punching and not enough on kicking, Tae Kwon Do being the opposite.. Usually focusing too much on kicking, and not enough on punching. I take street grappling classes and some training similar to that should be used in correlation with TKD.

[SevenStar]

street grappling? explain.

[PangQuan]

they hold thier classes in an alley covered in broken glass and nails.

[Iron_Fisted_TKD]

street grappling? explain.

I didn't pick the name but that is what it is called... It is taught by some gung-ho ex-navy seal sniper 7th Dan Hapkido instructor (ITA certification) who teaches realistic hapkido for the "street"? lol... Idk what he was thinking when he named it, but it is a very good class (only 50 bucks a month too!!) that teaches many ways to deal with people that "hug" you when you start pounding their @ss with kicks and punches.

To be quite honest, Tae Kwon Do hardly touches on what to do if someone really starts grappling with you. They teach basic grab escapes, but nothing past the basic "twist your wrist towards their thumb" escape techniques.

Tae Kwon Do also teaches to follow up with a strike after a counter ALWAYS. I would prefer to quickly snap an arm than to punch them in the face... and believe me, I LOVE punching:D

Again as for the name of the class, I think it is all marketing... I guess people will like to hear the words "street grappling" rather than "modernized hapkido"

[TaiChi-IronPalm]

I didn't pick the name but that is what it is called... It is taught by some gung-ho ex-navy seal sniper 7th Dan Hapkido instructor (ITA certification) who teaches realistic hapkido for the "street"? lol... Idk what he was thinking when he named it, but it is a very good class (only 50 bucks a month too!!) that teaches many ways to deal with people that "hug" you when you start pounding their @ss with kicks and punches.

To be quite honest, Tae Kwon Do hardly touches on what to do if someone really starts grappling with you. They teach basic grab escapes, but nothing past the basic "twist your wrist towards their thumb" escape techniques.

Tae Kwon Do also teaches to follow up with a strike after a counter ALWAYS. I would prefer to quickly snap an arm than to punch them in the face... and believe me, I LOVE punching:D

Again as for the name of the class, I think it is all marketing... I guess people will like to hear the words "street grappling" rather than "modernized hapkido"

I got a black belt in some style of hapkido back in 85 and its pretty cool, I got it in north carolina, from some dude teaching downtown, I dont know what the lineage is or whatever, it may not even be real hapkido, but what I learned was alot like if you combined Tang Soo Do/Tae Kwon Do type striking with Aikdo and Jujitsu type locks, throws, and chokes. It has always been pretty effective in the street. Doesnt hurt that I can take multiple, at least 12 looking back at the fight, punches to the jaw and temple from a 6'8" 300lb Marine presidential guard and not be knocked out, I guess that is a strong chin? That helps for sure, funny though it only took one punch to his crotch to end the madness of him having me jammed up against a wall punching the crap out of me.

[jkdninja]

I train in Jun Fan Gung Fu/ Jeet Kune Do with Sifu Lamar Davis. I have TKD and BJJ experience as well. I find that the JKD can be applied more effeciently to a street fight than the other styles I have trained in. I would also agree with earlier posts that the gun is the best weapon of choice. But that to brings great responsibilities. Checkout this web site: http://www.hardcorejkd.com it is by Sifu Lamar Davis. His training is geared toward the real life world and not tournaments or MMA fights. Also check out http://www.realcombatonline.com this site has articles from Sifu Davs as well as other well known instructors. it also has a forum if you want to join it it is free as well.

KS

[SevenStar]

the drawback of the gun is that if you don't already have it drawn, ****ed and trained on your attacker, you may not be fast enough to use it. I won't addressthe rest of your post, as we are all entitled to our own opinions...

[Samurai Jack]

Finally, while the argument about having a good chance of being killed or killing a bystander simply doesn't hold up. Show me the statistics on people who legally carry firearms accidentally shooting themselves or others.

Sorry it's taken me so long to respond. I've been out of the country. Here are some quotes, and thier sources:


"The issue of "home defense" or protection against intruders may well be misrepresented. Of 626 shootings in or around a residence in three U.S. cities revealed that, for every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides (Kellermann et al, 1998). Over 50% of all households in the U.S. admit to having firearms (Nelson et al, 1987). It would appear that, rather than being used for defense, most of these weapons inflict injuries on the owners and their families."

http://medlib.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html

"From 1993 to 2002,1 data from the BLS Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries (CFOI) show that 175 workers were killed on the job as the result of an accidental gunshot wound. While this total represented only 0.3 percent of the 61,146 workplace fatalities suffered by all workers during this 10-year span, these fatalities are especially alarming because they involve firearms and are prevalent in military and protective service occupations."

Below is a chart showing the rates of accidental gunshot deaths between the years 1993 and 2002. Note the fact that these individuals were police, government agents, and military who shot and killed themselves or a by-stander in the course of doing thier jobs. These statistics do not include either gulf war, for obvious reasons.

http://www.bls.gov/opub/cwc/tables/sh20040903ar01t1.htm


"Research has shown that a gun kept in the home is 43 times more likely to kill a member of the household, or friend, than an intruder.(Arthur Kellermann and Donald Reay. "Protection or Peril? An Analysis of Firearm Related Deaths in the Home." The New England Journal of Medicine, vol. 314, no. 24, June 1986, pp. 1557-60.) The use of a firearm to resist a violent assault actually increases the victim's risk of injury and death(FE Zimring, Firearms, violence, and public policy, Scientific American, vol. 265, 1991, p. 48)."

"Keeping a gun in the home carries a murder risk 2.7 times greater than not keeping one. That is, excluding many other factors such as previous history of violence, class, race, etc., a household with a gun is 2.7 times more likely to experience a murder than a household without one, even while there was no significant increase in the risk of non-gun homicides. " (Arthur Kellermann et. al., "Gun Ownership as a Risk Factor for Homicide in the Home," The New England Journal of Medicine, October 7, 1993, pp. 1084-1091)

"The present study, based on a sample of eighteen countries, confirms the result of previous work based on the 14 countries surveyed during the first International Crime Survey. Substantial correlations were found between gun ownership and gun-related as well as total homicide and suicide rates. Of the recorded homicide rates, 16% were commited unintentionally. Widespread gun ownership has not been found to reduce the likelihood of fatal events committed with other means. Thus, people do not turn to knives and other potententially lethal weapons less often when more guns are available, but more guns usually means more victims of homicide and suicide." (International Crime Victim Survey 2004)

So there you go. Some statistics and comments from our governement, the National, and International Crime Victim surevey (used by law enforcement to track trends in crime), Scientific American, and the New England Journal of Medicine.

[Fajing]

Ok... you obviously don't know anything about tae Kwon Do. Please do not talk about martial arts that you do not know about.

Tae Kwon Do is actually one of the best martial arts for street defense. Tae Kwon Do uses mainly kicks (of course) and in street fighting that doesn't change. Against in-experienced fighters, High kicks really do own. They get kicked in the chest and head, while trying to attack you with their fists. It is actually really amusing. Against experienced/professional fighters, low kicks must be used. Saying that Tae Kwon Do is not good for street fighting obviously comes from the mouth of someone who has not had their femur/ankle/knee snapped in half by a low side/front/round kick.

:rolleyes: Idiot. Feet hit harder, and have more range than any other weapon in the arsenal of the human body.

I am (by no means) putting tae Kwon Do above any other martial art. I am, however, saying that Tae Kwon Do is very appropriate for street self defense. Just because a few stupid ATA Tae Kwon Do black-belts suck balls, does not mean that more serious Tae Kwon Do people also suck balls.

Observe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkdzGLWIdOA&search=tae%20kwon%20do%20tornado%20kick
http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/16408/Kickboxing_Knockout.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS8vvlKgzPQ&search=tae%20kwon%20do%20taekwondo%20karate%20kyok ushin%20kickboxing%20wtf%20olympic
Little guy takes down a big guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMp13KOvaQA&search=tae%20kwon%20do
TKD VS Kyokushin Karate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkHuXhH0J7w&search=tae%20kwon%20do%20taekwondo%20karate%20kyok ushin%20kickboxing%20wtf%20olympic

Yeah so... shut the f!ck up because I have won street fights against people who use Wing Chun and Muy Thai. In my opinion, Wing Chun focuses too much on punching and not enough on kicking, Tae Kwon Do being the opposite.. Usually focusing too much on kicking, and not enough on punching. I take street grappling classes and some training similar to that should be used in correlation with TKD.


Dude, a few points.....first of all calm down. :p Hey, I agree with you about TKD. If you are an awesome TKD practitioner with the right skills and training, you can whoop ass. However, this is no reason to diss other styles like Wing Chun or Muy Thai. They both also produce some awesome fighters. There will always be people on these forums claiming that one style is inferior or terrible, but this is just because they have yet to encounter a good practitioner, who does the style justice. People often pick on Tae Kwon Do because of all the cheesy dojos that lack proper training measures. I see 8 year olds with black belts. :rolleyes: Furthermore, those clips aren't very good ones. Those are cheesy point tournaments that have too many pads, restrictions and not enough diverse arts competing. Post a UFC or MMA event where a TKD guy whoops as and it will be more powerful in supporting your arguement. Anyway, I do agree with you overall. It depends far more on the fighter than the art itself. TKD fighters can whoop some ass too. Just an observation.....:D

[unkokusai]

Tae Kwon Do is actually one of the best martial arts for street defense.


.........................LOL

[dwid]

Sorry it's taken me so long to respond. I've been out of the country. Here are some quotes, and thier sources:



Below is a chart showing the rates of accidental gunshot deaths between the years 1993 and 2002. Note the fact that these individuals were police, government agents, and military who shot and killed themselves or a by-stander in the course of doing thier jobs. These statistics do not include either gulf war, for obvious reasons.

http://www.bls.gov/opub/cwc/tables/sh20040903ar01t1.htm



So there you go. Some statistics and comments from our governement, the National, and International Crime Victim surevey (used by law enforcement to track trends in crime), Scientific American, and the New England Journal of Medicine.

Thanks for all the data. I have to admit I see some weaknesses in the way the data are interpreted in the reporting, but it is something we'll likely have to agree to disagree on. The fact is that the base rates for accidental shooting deaths are extremely low. 175 over a 10 year period, many of which occurred in occupations where firearms were regularly carried is not very many. Further, if 50% of American homes contain firearms then it is erroneous to claim, as one of the above mentioned authors do, that "most of these weapons inflict injuries on the owners and their families." Clearly most of these weapons are never used in any violent way whatsoever. Including data on intentional suicides is just a way to inflate the numbers, as it is irrelevant to the topic of accidental injuries and fatalities. Anyway, yes firearms can pose a danger. Certainly lots of people buy guns and store them unsafely in homes with kids, etc... and I would never advocate any of that. However, you'll note in looking at my original quote that I was specifically referring to people who legally carry firearms, as in those with concealed carry permits who have gone through the required training and people who are otherwise permitted to carry firearms. I suppose these people would fall into the 175 work related accidental firearm fatalities, which again, is not very many given that the data included police officers and such. Data on injuries and fatalities related to guns are some of the most manipulated data there are - both sides of the fence (the gun owner people and the gun control people) have their extreme supporters and both are certainly guilty of skewing the stats in their favor. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle and is basically common sense.

[Ironwind]

Not saying be completely stupid about it but if my life depended on it and I was armless I'd would try my best to just break his arm or even in jujitsu "the falling arm bar" thing blast til' the clips empty then whoop'm.

But if it happened to be more than 1 person then use each person against the other... right???

[Cleveland]

If you are at a distance, run. Most criminals do not know how to use and aim a gun in the first place. If you are close, martial arts is very effective. Where I train in Northern Shaolin, my Sifu teaches kung-fu for self defense. We learn gun defense, REAL knife defense (which is included in our testing), and even chair fighting. The biggest reason people can't defend themselves is there are too many garbage schools who teach the fancy stuff. We learn forms, but he stresses real techniques like groin kicks, eye gouges, and throat strikes. If you are close enough, and have trained long enough, your martial arts should be able to protect you or give you a means for escape.

[SevenStar]

Most criminals do not know how to use and aim a gun in the first place.

that's a very dangerous ASSumption to make.


If you are close, martial arts is very effective.

How do you know? How many times have you used your art in a real altercation against a gun?


We learn forms, but he stresses real techniques like groin kicks, eye gouges, and throat strikes.

All of the areas you mentioned are not necessarily fight enders, and in some cases (like with eye gouges and throat stirkes), are very hard to hit against a moving, resisting opponent.

[螳螂(Mantis)]

I think we can all agree that violence USUALLY causes more problems than it solves. If someone is threatening my life than I will be passive unless I am absolutely sure that he doesn't intend on letting me live. I won't let them tie me down or lock me in a closet either. If I am going to die then I die fighting. Of course we all have every right to fear death but I was taught to never fear anything except fear itself. Easier said then done :D . And I live in Florida so I can kill if I feel my life is in danger according to the state law. One thing I have learned is that psycology is a great weapon in combat. You can judge someone's character by their words, actions, facial expressions ect. and you will have a better chance of knowing what action to take since you know what kind of person you are up against. For example if some dude walks up to me with a gun in his trembling hand demanding that I hand over my wallet, with beads of sweat dripping from his face and nothing but sheer terror and suspensful agony, then I would show as much agression as possible because he is obviously scared about what may happen next. Now it would be a good idea to know what he is afraid of specifically (e.g. physical pain, the law, death,phobias...) but in a situation such as this I probably wouldn't have the time to see what makes him tick. This may not give you 100% satisfactory results but I gaurentee you that a good understanding of the human mind will give you a better chance at turning the tables on your attacker. Each personality and emotion type has a counter to it. But to what effect the counter will have depends on how severe the signs of a particular personality type or emotion(at that givin moment). If you are having a hard time figuring out who you are dealing with by looking for the "not so obvious signs" than it's best not to chance it like that. But I seriously doubt you will not be able to determine character and/or emotion in a situation as tense as life and death. Physical contact is only half the battle. The mind plays it's role in a fight too. So it helps if your body and reflexes are fast but your mind is faster. It just gives you more time to judge the situation and how you should react. Remember that we are humans, we are on the top of the food chain because of the thing we each have concealed inside our heads. Adrenaline plays a major factor in combat too but I think we all know enough info on that, so I won't throw out anymore info then I think will be read.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I live in Atlanta.

A couple of months back, there were stories of bartenders getting held up in the Kennesaw (North Metro ATL) area of Cobb County GA. An ex-marine was a bartender or a waiter at a place called Jocks and Jills. He got off of his shift, locked up the bar, and then crossed the dark, open parking lot to get to his car. All he had on him was his backpack. As he's crossing the lot, two people jump out of their van. One has a shotgun, the other has a pistol. He kicks the shotgun out of hte dude's hands, catches it, shoots him, and then shoots the chick with the pistol. They were threatening to kill him, and they'd killed someone before. The ex-marine got off scot-free.

That, my boys, takes some primo cahones. Taking on a shotty....****...

[qiphlow]

hasn't this subject come up like 5 billion times already? when it comes down to it, YOU are the one who will have to use the tools that you have to defend your life or your family. martial arts are a tool, as is a gun, a knife, a bat, a chain, etc.
these things are useless without a human being to use them. it's kind of stupid to argue which one is the best--what works for you may not work for someone else. it's all subjective.

[straight blast]

Feet hit harder, and have more range than any other weapon in the arsenal of the human body.


I'll give you that they have more range, but hit harder?

With all due respect...Come on.

Elbows and headbutts hit harder due to the amount of body mass & strength of structure.

The human head weighs roughly the same as a bowling ball & if delivered properly (much in the same way as a good kicker delivers properly) has the entire body structure behind it.

I have seen many Muay Thai fights where a fighter has shaken off a good head kick (surprisingly I'll admit) but it is rare in the extreme to see one walk away after a solid elbow.

Just my 2c

[msg]

i think most not all MA would work on the street you just have to remember it does not allways look like the forms you practice but it willwork .Or the differnt MA styles that are hundreds of years old would not still be around

[Shaolin Wookie]

Knees and bow's, my boys....knees and bow's.....

[mantiskilla]

i want to hear more about the marine/ shotgun incident. thats one of the coolest things i've ever heard. got a link to an article or anything?
________
Honda logo (http://www.honda-wiki.org/wiki/Honda_Logo)

[mawali]

Regardless of what we say about taekwondo, it is the most popular MA. It seems to offer people what they want in a martial sport or martial art! Take your pick.
It is organized, skills are transferrable, and agility, strength and conditioning are part of the health and fitness area.

All this without empty force, chi **** and other wily creations of the New Age tai chi movement! Dig that!
is wizz ( w i z z) a bad word?

[JDK]

Regardless of what we say about taekwondo, it is the most popular MA. It seems to offer people what they want in a martial sport or martial art! Take your pick.
It is organized, skills are transferrable, and agility, strength and conditioning are part of the health and fitness area.

All this without empty force, chi **** and other wily creations of the New Age tai chi movement! Dig that!
is wizz ( w i z z) a bad word?

I was 17, no formal training...but I trained religiously on my own ( Jeet Kun Do, Karate, Boxing) We had a kid in the neighborhood who was a Black Belt at
the popular taekwondo school in our area. H e somehow got word that I like to practice martial arts...so he challenged me.
I accepted...I was a little nervous because he was rich, and had studied at a School for 3 years and was a certified Black Belt...while I was lower niddle class with no formal training at that point...I just orders Books and self-taught myself as best I could.

Our "sparring" (in front of several of our mutual friends) quicly turned into a fight which lasted about 5 minutes.

I am not bragging here or trying to sound conceited..but I kicked his Butt.:D
Believe me...I was as surprised as him and the crowd!!!!!:eek:

He left embarrassed, making excuses and never challengd me again.


That was the first experience I had...but it was a real eye-opener ((remember...this was 1974...and Korean Karate was very popular).....I practiced it too....but I also had become a Boxer by then, and it was then I realized that I had what is called a Natural Heavy ability to Strike...or "Heavy Hands". My tendon strength and fast twitch muscles in my upper body were God given and came naturally.

I complied an amatuer record of 11-1 with 8 first round knock outs. I had fights in Ohio, Nashville Tenn, and one in North Carolina.

I really like the traditional MA's though...so I began to study Hung-gar, Southern Shaolin and Choy li Fut at a Real School .

I remember my third week...we did an exercise called Three Star Blocks and a 38 year old Akron Police Offficer was my partner as we paired off in class randomly.
He had 3 years training in the System plus his Police Training.

I could tell he was really trying to impress me with his hard Blocks to my forearms
so I increased my striking and matched his intensity.
I was 6"1 and 200 pounds and he was aboput the same..maybe a little taller.

It soon became apparent that I was hurting him with my blocks, and I was "in the zone" and not really feeling any pain of my own The more frustrated he became, the harder I blocked, using my waist, legs and trunk rotation to generate power.

I write this NOT to brag or sound conceited...ther were plenty of humbling experience waiting for me in future classes...and alot of things I could do well.

I overheard him go up to Sifu after the exercise and while rubbing his forearms he said Boy...that new kid is realy strong! If he sticks with Stance Training and the Power exercises he is really going to be good!
I admit it..I was kinda proud of myself.:D

Next week at class as we paired off..SIFU chose me as his partner.:eek:
But...he was a 60 year old man, who for all intents and purposes looked like a young 50 year old man, with no grey hair and a very friendly disposition.

As we began our 3 Star Blocking...I noticed he didnt seem like he was putting forth much effort...and yet within 1 minute my forearms arms were throbbing!:( I increased my power as I had done the week before,,,,but Sifu seemed to somehow absorb my blows without any pain ...and continued to pound my forearms with the same effortless looking 6 Star Blocks! This 60 year old man...stoof 5foot 8, weighed maybe 165-170...and yeat he was [b] killingme!!!! ONLY my pride kept me going for the full exercise. I was dumbfounded and sore.
We took a short tea break then...and he slipped into his backroom and gave me a bottle of Bruise Medicine and instructed me how to use it.

Unknown to me at the time, his specialty for the last 30 years was Iron Body, Iron Palm and Iron Vest...I later watched at a demonstration where they broke a heavy 4 foot by 4 foot Cement Block over his back with a Sledge Hammer..while he had the razor sharp piont of a Spear pressed against his adams apple,while a senior student place his foot on the other end of the Spear on the ground to hold it in place.:eek: I watched as the Spear Bent and Sifu
absorbed the point of the Spear without damage to his throat. We were all invited down to examine both the Spear, his throat and the cement Block.

In class later that week he was very matter of fact about it...said he didnt like doing it, because it felt like he was showing off.

I learned in Class over the next year that even with all my God-given natural punching ability...this man was able to either move, sidestep, block OR absorb my best punches...without any effect!!!!! It was frustrating and humbling.

But that was the intention....the humility part I believe.

JD

[PhillyKid81]

Martial Arts is no different from anything else...it will be much more effective for those who fight a lot. The biggest problem with all martial arts is the people that practice them. They have a set of assumptions in mind: a punch will be a hook rather than a cross, for instance. They'll design the perfect techinque to counter it until they get a 1-2 jab hook combination. Then the technique's out the window. The funny thing about any martial art is that it attempts to bring structure and order to something that's inherently chaotic, namely fighting.

A system's principles will work in a street fight, rehearsed techinques won't. As an analogy, imagine learning to play basketball by simply shooting the rock in your backyard. You do lay-up drills, you practice dribbling between chairs, you practice your fade-away, and then you go to the local gym to test it out. Well, all of your backyard training never taught you how to handle a 3/4 press. It never taught you how to choose the perfect moment to switch the ball from your right hand to the left to get a defender off balance. And it certainly never prepared you for the pace, agression, and spontaneity of an intense pick up game.

Fighting can't be too different. Admittedly, I'm not a martial artist: I'm a ball player. But I don't have any scripted reaction to any one given situation on the court. I'm not sure what I'd do if a guy forced me baseline with my left hand underneath the basket. I just have enough experience playing the sport that I'm able to analyze the situation and deduce what options are available to me at any given point in time.

I've taken a few classes in Wing Chun, JKD, and Sayoc, and these guys all say: "Once you deliver the kick to the groin, you go for the arm bar, and once he's on the ground, you do yada yada yada..." . Well, what if you miss the kick to the groin? What if he fights his way out of the arm bar? Most guys would go into panic mode because they only know a five-step technique that's supposed to lead to eventual submission. But once they miss step 2, they'll either go back to regular scrapping or get stomped out on Chelten Avenue.

When I was in 8th grade, I had a class where I sparred against an adult who practicied Hung Gar. He kept trying to trap my arms, but I just decided to **** back and drill him in the chest with a right cross. He then told me that I wasn't allowed to do that. Why not? Can't the Praying Leopard Strike counter a right cross?

In all, I think the best way to learn to fight is to do something that allows you to fight. Boxing teaches good footwork and you develop good timing and get somewhat accustomed to the pace of an assault. You can learn good body structure from Wing Chun, but it only matters if you have the patience to really understand and become comfortable with its concepts. Otherwise, you'll look as pathetic as that William Cheung guy. I've seen fights Broad Street more disciplined than that.

[JDK]

GREAT POST!!!!!!

You get my "Vote' for post of the week~:D

"Its not WHOSE right...its WHAT'S right"
My favorite saying..... JD

[msg]

i agree with phillykid81 boxing i think is good to start of with my very first teacher was a golden glove from boston he allways said punches in bunches .so boxing is a good foundation to build from

[Shaolin Wookie]

i want to hear more about the marine/ shotgun incident. thats one of the coolest things i've ever heard. got a link to an article or anything?

I'll see if I can find something on it. It happened just a while ago. I'll post a link if I can get my webfu on it.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Here's some links on the MArine that kicked the shotty out of a robber's hand, then stabbed someone with a pocketknife:

It's not as glamorous as it sounds.....but I gotta tell ya.....he had some sand....

http://www.11alive.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=80405

http://www.newschannel5.tv/News/Other/3092/Former-Marine-fends-off-robbers-in-Atlanta--kills-one

That part about the cut on the hand and a bruise on the chest made me laugh. It's sad that anyone had to die in such a stupid manner (for money---especially a teenage chick), but if you're going to survive at the point of two guns, with nothing but a pocketknife at your side.....that was the way to do it. Not that he could tell, though. They were all wearing masks.

Streets are safer because of him, I guess. They'd already robbed several people in hte area.....and sooner or later one of those guns was going to get used---that's pretty much guaranteed.

Only reinforces my confidence in knives.

[kidswarrior]

The biggest problem with all martial arts is the people that practice them. They have a set of assumptions in mind: a punch will be a hook rather than a cross, for instance. They'll design the perfect techinque to counter it until they get a 1-2 jab hook combination. Then the technique's out the window. The funny thing about any martial art is that it attempts to bring structure and order to something that's inherently chaotic, namely fighting.

A system's principles will work in a street fight, rehearsed techinques won't.

Agree with the first sentence to a degree--the problem for many (I wouldn't say all) is their own presuppositions about what will always or will never work. This all or nothing/always or never thinking (inflexibility and lack of adaptability) is dangerous. Instead, maybe we need to view techniques as possible responses to possible scenarios--backed up by plenty of free flowing simulations of street defense (forms--especially with innovative and evolving bunkai--and some types of partner work can enhance this).

So while techniques may not always work as learned verbatim, I still believe there is a place for them. When the movements are ingrained, there is a good chance that when faced with a crisis, the seasoned martial artist's muscle memory and intuituve sense will take over and make new combinations from pieces of the old formulated techniques in response to the confrontation. This is just a different take on the original poster's next thought, that a system's principles will work more often than prescribed techniques. I would like to add, systems don't get into fights, people do, so experience (muscle memory/intuition) must take over. In fact the poster makes this point about his own sport:


I just have enough experience playing the sport that I'm able to analyze the situation and deduce what options are available to me at any given point in time.

All in all, an excellent post, and certainly much that deserves further thought by those of us who study the martial arts.

[lonewolf]

i agree with phillykid81 boxing i think is good to start of with my very first teacher was a golden glove from boston he allways said punches in bunches .so boxing is a good foundation to build from

while many people may agree with this philosophy and i too learned in this order i wish i would have learned wrestling or jujistu first. most street fights end up on the ground and we all can admit that in the UFC not many don't end up going to the ground. does any body here remember the very first UFC. a professonal boxer against hoyce gracey. the boxer goes down and never comes back up. learning to go to the ground is a whole new ball game and it's hard to undo the training that comes with a stand up game. :cool:

[msg]

tired of all the royce gracey hype he won because the people he fought played his game that was there mistake

[lonewolf]

tired of all the royce gracey hype he won because the people he fought played his game that was there mistake

hey i don't like the hype either. jujistu is boring whenit comes to the entertainment side of the sport, but i have to say that there was no option given when fighting him. kimo for while was the only one that tried to make sure he wasn't going to play gracey's game but was still submitted, gracey wasn't able to continue the tournament because kimo beat him to bad but kimo still lost. i don't care what style you practice, i'd like to see you in the ring with gracey.:p

[kidswarrior]

tired of all the royce gracey hype he won because the people he fought played his game that was there mistake

I actually agree with this, but weren't we talking about self defense? As in street/alley/parking lot of movie theater, etc.? This is much different than MMA bouts. I believe the thread started out even mentioning guns. Now Gracie, Kimo...or whoever, would be hard pressed to put a gun holder in an armbar :D

[lonewolf]

if a man points a gun at you... you give him your wallet. duh, everybody knows that. self defense isn't just fighting. it's knowing how to come out of a bad situation alive.

[debo108]

Regardless of what we say about taekwondo, it is the most popular MA. It seems to offer people what they want in a martial sport or martial art! Take your pick.
It is organized, skills are transferrable, and agility, strength and conditioning are part of the health and fitness area.

All this without empty force, chi **** and other wily creations of the New Age tai chi movement! Dig that!
is wizz ( w i z z) a bad word?

yo, this guy is on some crazy stuff! for one, it shows you have absolutely NO DEPTH of knowledge regarding martial arts and second you have depth to your own practice. 'chi' or empty force as it is more often reffered to in CMA circles is anything but a new age or tai chi invention. it is one of the fundemental principles of chinese medicine theory and has been so for thousands of years.

you need to get an education my friend.

[msg]

i have to totaly agree with you tkd its all emty movements it all relieys on external strengh and momentom you stop that and its very easy to over come ...i know some people are going to disagree with that not trying to say anything bad .there is a lot of MA like that most karate to. just to perdictable alot of emty movements ......and talking about karate see if this makes sence to you or even right ..a karate dojo opened and is looking for instructers they said they were looking for anybody with any kind of MA background if none ok the will train you in 4 weeks time so you can teach for them and you get 60 percent of that class u teach can anybody say money scam thats such crap to do that it bring MA a bad name ...i forgot the name i will get it again and let anybody who want to know who they are so nobody gets riped off

[kidswarrior]

Question for lonewolf....


This is how the thread opened:

How effective are Martial Arts in Self Defence

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I truly believe the best defence is a Gun.

Your post:


if a man points a gun at you... you give him your wallet. duh, everybody knows that. self defense isn't just fighting. it's knowing how to come out of a bad situation alive.

So, are you agreeing, or disagreeing with the first poster? :confused:
And duh, I can be a little slow, but just wanted to nail down whether you're taking exception to my post or his?

[JDK]

To All,

I have been doing some thinking...and I guess in my enthusiasm I came on
much too strong with my personal beliefs. I don’t have all the answers and AM
still in search of Truth....I have so much to learn, like all of us.

Please forgive.

I want to talk Martial Arts from now on...so I will restrict my posts
To that Subject. Anything else...feel free to send me a Private Message

Again...sorry to have stirred up so much hostility and controversy...that was
never my intention

JDK
Eliom12@sbcglobal.net

PS I Would lke to return to my Original question....WHY have NO Pure Traditionalist Kung-Fu Students or Masters entered and WON the UFC ? Even withoput eye gouging, fish hooking, and groin strikes allowed... somebody somewhere to authenticate and Vindicate TMA's would use Iron Body, Palm,Dim Mak, Iron Vest, Stone Warrior, etc...

So why not ? Not looking for excuses here...we ALL know somewhere, some student or master would win it if he could, if for nothing more than the satisfaction of winning the money, vindicating TMA'sm etc..

The New JDK

[kidswarrior]

[B]To All,

I have been doing some thinking...and I guess in my enthusiasm I came on
much too strong with my personal beliefs. I don’t have all the answers and AM
still in search of Truth....I have so much to learn, like all of us.

Please forgive.

JDK

Takes a big man to admit when he may be wrong. Thanks for making a courageous public statement to that effect. You have my utmost respect.

In fact, your action here to promote peace whenever possible goes to my belief about why there is no TMA movement underway to defeat MMA's in a contest (octagon, whatever). I personally see the ultimate goal of TMA as building the calm, confident demeanor to walk away from an antagonist whenever possible (if he leaves us no choice, well then, that's the other part of why we train). MMA is intended for the opposite: taking on the antagonist no matter what, and from what I've seen, further antagonizing and attempting to intimidate him leading up to the fight. This posturing, hubris, and trash talking is also why I don't watch boxing anymore.

So here's my question: would a TMA who showed up for a MMA event get a standing ovation for turning and walking away rather than fighting? If not, maybe
that is our answer to why we haven't seen more TMAs in contests: any TMA/CMA master who glorified and promoted violence is not someone I would want to train with, emulate, or send my students to. Fortunately, I don't personally know of any.

[lonewolf]

Question for lonewolf....


This is how the thread opened:


Your post:



So, are you agreeing, or disagreeing with the first poster? :confused:
And duh, I can be a little slow, but just wanted to nail down whether you're taking exception to my post or his?

i disagree with the first poster. the best self defense weapon is your brain. a gun's purpose isn't defending anything, it's killing something. in using a gun there is always the chance that not only will you kill your attacker but someone else that isn't involved. bullets aren't selective in who it strikes but a martial artist can be.

[kidswarrior]

i disagree with the first poster. the best self defense weapon is your brain. a gun's purpose isn't defending anything, it's killing something. in using a gun there is always the chance that not only will you kill your attacker but someone else that isn't involved. bullets aren't selective in who it strikes but a martial artist can be.

Then I agree with you wholeheartedly!! Whenever someone (like one of the teens I work with:eek: ) tells me they have a gun for self defense, I always ask, So your bullet is going to intercept his bullet, or act as a shield around you? :rolleyes: Thanks for clearing that up for me. :)

[SevenStar]

In fact, your action here to promote peace whenever possible goes to my belief about why there is no TMA movement underway to defeat MMA's in a contest (octagon, whatever). I personally see the ultimate goal of TMA as building the calm, confident demeanor to walk away from an antagonist whenever possible (if he leaves us no choice, well then, that's the other part of why we train). MMA is intended for the opposite: taking on the antagonist no matter what, and from what I've seen, further antagonizing and attempting to intimidate him leading up to the fight. This posturing, hubris, and trash talking is also why I don't watch boxing anymore.

no, MMA and boxing are professional level events... they get paid for them... humans like drama and creates interest... their interest sells tickets. Period. Most of the mma guys I know are more humble and calm than most of the tma that I know. That is a trait which competition is great at building. At the end of the day, it's about the competition. I've beaten guys who after losing offered to buy drinks. A guy that I lost to came to my school afterward to train. mma guys are no different from anyone else. People unitiated to mma - like many on this board - don't know that.


So here's my question: would a TMA who showed up for a MMA event get a standing ovation for turning and walking away rather than fighting? If not, maybe
that is our answer to why we haven't seen more TMAs in contests: any TMA/CMA master who glorified and promoted violence is not someone I would want to train with, emulate, or send my students to. Fortunately, I don't personally know of any.

I love it when people try to rationalize something so simple. you don't see tma in mma because on average, they lose. the tma training regimen would have to drastically change in order for it to be successful, and many are not willing to do that. Consequently, they don't compete in the mma venue. There is nothing wrong with that, it's just preference. How can a tma compete in forms and point tournies, then say they have no desire to compete, so they don't do mma? that's crap. That applies to any venue. You have to train a certain way for it. I for example, being primarily a contact guy, regularly got points taken away from me in point sparring tournies for excessive contact. I can spar lightly, but when competing, it wasn't what I was used to - that wasn't the venue I was training for.

Look at san shou. it's a competition venue stemming from traditional cma. However, I bet a lot of cma would suck at it. Why? because they don't train for that venue. Bottom line is that it's an issue of training for the venue and whether or not you want to train for that venue.

Several cma and jma - even some on this forum - have competed in mma. If tma won more often, you would actually see MORE tma competing, because people would be flocking to it to train. Honestly, I'm expecting to see a boom in san shou in the coming years. san shou combined with wrestling, IMO would be great for mma, and now that there are some san shou guys doing mma, I think it's popularity will slowly increase. Once the san shou guys start fighting in the major events, it will greatly increase.

To answer your question though, no, he would not get a standing ovation. Why? because mma events aren't spur of the moment like a point tourney, where a bunch of people just enter. you are told months ahead of time who your opponent is, and your opponent trains specifically for you. If it's a pro event, there is money involved. Even if it's amateur, spectators pay for tickets. By showing for the event, then walking away, you are wasting people's time and money. No way would you receive a standing ovation for that.

[SevenStar]

Then I agree with you wholeheartedly!! Whenever someone (like one of the teens I work with:eek: ) tells me they have a gun for self defense, I always ask, So your bullet is going to intercept his bullet, or act as a shield around you? :rolleyes: Thanks for clearing that up for me. :)


now let's ask the reverse. Someone shoots at you - is your martial art going to act like a shield? will you be able to dodge every bullet until you get close enough to disarm him? What if you attacker has a knife? chances are, you will be cut, unless you run. If you HAVE to defend against a knife, would you rather do it with an empty hand, or with a knife? Guns, knives, spray, etc can all be used as self defense implementations. As lone wolf mentioned, your brain is the self defense weapon, but your brain knows how to manifest a defense method through the gun, just as it does your bare hands.

[SevenStar]

PS I Would lke to return to my Original question....WHY have NO Pure Traditionalist Kung-Fu Students or Masters entered and WON the UFC ? Even withoput eye gouging, fish hooking, and groin strikes allowed... somebody somewhere to authenticate and Vindicate TMA's would use Iron Body, Palm,Dim Mak, Iron Vest, Stone Warrior, etc...

So why not ? Not looking for excuses here...we ALL know somewhere, some student or master would win it if he could, if for nothing more than the satisfaction of winning the money, vindicating TMA'sm etc..

The New JDK

Training. A standup TMA - karate, pretty much any style of kung fu except dog, chang taiji or shuai chiao, tkd, etc all focus on stand up striking. They may have standup grappling in the system, but it generally has a backseat and there is typically no ground grappling at all, unless it was brought in for another art. It is virtually impossible to win an mma match without having knowledge of the ground game. In addition, you have to train for the venue, be it three, five or ten minute rounds. You can't just take tma classes and go fight mma. You have to train for the mma venue. THAT is why none have won. improper training for the venue. On the same token, most mma would get owned in a boxing match. it's not what they train for. The mma, being used to pacing himself for 5 mins, would be in trouble trying to pace for 3 minute boxing rounds - his pacing and timing are thrown off. Likewise for the boxer who tries to fight a 5 minute mma round without training for it. Competition is very specific.

[SevenStar]

i have to totaly agree with you tkd its all emty movements it all relieys on external strengh and momentom you stop that and its very easy to over come ...i know some people are going to disagree with that not trying to say anything bad .there is a lot of MA like that most karate to. just to perdictable alot of emty movements ......and talking about karate see if this makes sence to you or even right ..a karate dojo opened and is looking for instructers they said they were looking for anybody with any kind of MA background if none ok the will train you in 4 weeks time so you can teach for them and you get 60 percent of that class u teach can anybody say money scam thats such crap to do that it bring MA a bad name ...i forgot the name i will get it again and let anybody who want to know who they are so nobody gets riped off


it sounds like you have never seen really good karate. And scammers are everywhere. I have personally met CMA scammers.

[SevenStar]

I actually agree with this, but weren't we talking about self defense? As in street/alley/parking lot of movie theater, etc.? This is much different than MMA bouts. I believe the thread started out even mentioning guns. Now Gracie, Kimo...or whoever, would be hard pressed to put a gun holder in an armbar :D

BJJ has gun defenses, just like your art does. I wouldn't try ANY from ANY STYLE unless absolutely necessary, but yes, a bjj guy can arm bar a gun weilder and disarm him, just as you have disarms in your style.

[SevenStar]

i think most not all MA would work on the street you just have to remember it does not allways look like the forms you practice but it willwork .Or the differnt MA styles that are hundreds of years old would not still be around

yeah they would. as long as there is some interest for WHATEVER reason - look at tai chi for health - the average person doesn't even know it is also a fighting style - it's popular for the health benefits. it's all about supply and demand. If you ask most people - and we have actually done this on the main forum a couple of times - most people will tell you that learning to fight is not their primary reason for training. It's usually fitness, confidence or in the case of kids, discipline.

[JDK]

So I must conclude my original suspicions ( and commen sense) were correct.

Todays TOP fighters in the UFC, Pride Fighting, etc...will dominate every Kung-Fu guy out there, regardless of Iron everything.
Regardless of QI GONG
Regardless of Dim Mak
Regardless of anything short of the traditional Kung-fu Karate guys learning grappling, full contact sparring , Jujitsu, western boxing and cardio endurance.

So my opinion is this....Traditonal Chinese Japanese, and Korean Arts ususally work on the street against the average joe ( assuming the martial artist has trained HARD in his karate,..etc...) and the average Joe while not a trained fighter isnt a concrete jawed, drugged up, steroided up monster who has several years in real bar Fight experience...

But since 1993, no TMA from the above mentioned schools, relying only on their Traditional Training...has never won any of the 68 UFC events...and never will.

It is a case of 2007 Fighters have evolved and become to big, to fast, too strong, and too well versed in several disciplines to be challenged by the Karate Guys who go full speed and full contact with or without pads.

Otherwise...all the other excuses and philosophy disussions are for another thread.

I will sum it up like this.

If we were able to Pit the 1968 Greenbay Packers under Vince Lumbardy against the 2007 Baltimore Colts..the Packers, who are from another era without the weights, nutrition, specialized coaches, diet and advanced knowledge the Colts would have...we would not only witness a blow out scoring wise..but the Packer Players from that tme would no doubt recieve serious injuries.

Agreed?

JDK

[SevenStar]

So I must conclude my original suspicions ( and commen sense) were correct.

Todays TOP fighters in the UFC, Pride Fighting, etc...will dominate every Kung-Fu guy out there, regardless of Iron everything.
Regardless of QI GONG
Regardless of Dim Mak
Regardless of anything short of the traditional Kung-fu Karate guys learning grappling, full contact sparring , Jujitsu, western boxing and cardio endurance.

that's not what I said. I said you have to train for the venue. dim mak won't matter. qi gong won't matter. However, they won't have to learn western boxing, either. longfist striking, for example, would work fine. BUT, in mma they MUST grapple. there is no way around that. Otherwise, they will be hopelessly lost once they get taken down. there is plenty of grappling out there though - they don't HAVE to train bjj, though. they can train judo, wrestling, catch, etc. A member on this forum - ultimatewingchun - trains wing chun and catch wrestling.

the requirements are proper training for the venue and a combination of striking and grappling. Without those, you don't stand a chance, whether you are traditional or sport based. A western boxer with no ground game would be lost in mma as well.


So my opinion is this....Traditonal Chinese Japanese, and Korean Arts ususally work on the street against the average joe ( assuming the martial artist has trained HARD in his karate,..etc...) and the average Joe while not a trained fighter isnt a concrete jawed, drugged up, steroided up monster who has several years in real bar Fight experience...

But since 1993, no TMA from the above mentioned schools, relying only on their Traditional Training...has never won any of the 68 UFC events...and never will.

they don't train for the venue. that said, you have a few guys with a traditional base who do really well, but they now train for the mma venue. cung le, david louisseau, georges st pierre...


It is a case of 2007 Fighters have evolved and become to big, to fast, too strong, and too well versed in several disciplines to be challenged by the Karate Guys who go full speed and full contact with or without pads.

No. It is a matter of training for the venue, as I keep saying. Put the mma guy in a kyokusinkai match and he may get stomped, because it's not what he trains for.


If we were able to Pit the 1968 Greenbay Packers under Vince Lumbardy against the 2007 Baltimore Colts..the Packers, who are from another era without the weights, nutrition, specialized coaches, diet and advanced knowledge the Colts would have...we would not only witness a blow out scoring wise..but the Packer Players from that tme would no doubt recieve serious injuries.


the colts left baltimore in like 1983...

[buddabelly]

Quote from site:
"When making a statement to the police about
what happened, you have to come up with
truths that make you look good faster
than the criminal can come up with lies
that will make you look bad. And if --for
whatever reason-- you can't do that,
you're in deep trouble."
Marc MacYoung


http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/legal.html

[lonewolf]

why are people talking about football here? this is for martial arts nerds. wussy jocks that want to wear pads, slap each other on the rear and chase each others balls around can go elsewhere.

[SevenStar]

why are people talking about football here? this is for martial arts nerds. wussy jocks that want to wear pads, slap each other on the rear and chase each others balls around can go elsewhere.


exactly... martial arts NERDS.... buncha keyboard warriors.

[JDK]

... However, they won't have to learn western boxing, either. longfist striking, for example, would work fine.

I respectfully disagree. I continue to practice Longfist and it would be no match for a trained UFC Fighter's Western Boxing Punches .


BUT, in mma they MUST grapple. there is no way around that. Otherwise, they will be hopelessly lost once they get taken down. there is plenty of grappling out there though - they don't HAVE to train bjj, though. they can train judo, wrestling, catch, etc. A member on this forum - ultimatewingchun - trains wing chun and catch wrestling.
the requirements are proper training for the venue and a combination of striking and grappling. Without those, you don't stand a chance, whether you are traditional or sport based. A western boxer with no ground game would be lost in mma as well.


I agree 100 percent...no question, you are right on the button..68 UFC's in 14 years to back it up


they don't train for the venue. that said, you have a few guys with a traditional base who do really well, but they now train for the mma venue. cung le, david louisseau, georges st pierre...

Again I couldnt agree more.
Your training "for the venue" is exactly my point...you have been able to state it better than me.



No. It is a matter of training for the venue, as I keep saying. Put the mma guy in a kyokusinkai match and he may get stomped, because it's not what he trains for.

DARN! You were doing so good, and I was being so agreeable.;)

Just as the Kyokushinkai martial artist would NEVER dare step in to Today's UFC ( A few tried in the early days and almost got killed) without learning all the applicable arts for UFC fights....a UFC Fighter would dominate every Kyokushinkai
artist who tried to rely only on his Kyokushinkai training. IF said Kyokushinkai Fighter trained for the UFC Venue..they could be successful,

But you gotta know down deep in your heart, that Ortiz, Silvia, Matt Hughes, Liddel, etc...would KILL Kyokushinkai martial artists in their Kyokushinkai Venue.

Unfortunately its not a two way street.

Not all..but the Top 20 UFC Fighters are so highly skilled and trained for brutal strikes.....they would simply be too much for even a well trained Kyokushinkai artist..

Dont you agree ?????? Here's even a trailer to watch so others can decide their opinions... I even picked a good looking string of hard strike knockouts by the Kyokushinkai fighters. But they dont have a Tank Abbot ( in his prime) rushing across the Mat at them...and can you imagine what a Chuck Liddel strike would do to these honorable Traditionalists ???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD5FQIN-hFo







the colts left baltimore in like 1983...

My bad man.....thats cold embarrassing me about it though ;)

I stand corrected..the Indianapolis Clots....

JDK

[unkokusai]

why are people talking about football here? this is for martial arts nerds. wussy jocks that want to wear pads, slap each other on the rear and chase each others balls around can go elsewhere.


Awww...someone got beat up by the football team in high school. You'll get over it in time, champ. :rolleyes:

[JDK]

Originally Posted by SevenStar
... However, they won't have to learn western boxing, either. longfist striking, for example, would work fine.


I respectfully disagree. I continue to practice Longfist and it would be no match for a trained UFC Fighter's Western Boxing Punches .


I agree 100 percent...no question, you are right on the button..68 UFC's in 14 years to back it up

Again I couldnt agree more.
Your training "for the venue" is exactly my point...you have been able to state it better than me.

DARN! You were doing so good, and I was being so agreeable.;)

Just as the Kyokushinkai martial artist would NEVER dare step in to Today's UFC ( A few tried in the early days and almost got killed) without learning all the applicable arts for UFC fights....a UFC Fighter would dominate every Kyokushinkai
artist who tried to rely only on his Kyokushinkai training. IF said Kyokushinkai Fighter trained for the UFC Venue..they could be successful,

But you gotta know down deep in your heart, that Ortiz, Silvia, Matt Hughes, Liddel, etc...would KILL Kyokushinkai martial artists in their Venue.

Unfortunately its not a two way street.

The Top 20 UFC Fighters are so highly skilled and trained for brutal strikes.....they would simply be too much for a well trained Kyokushinkai artist..

Dont you agree ?????? Here's even a trailer to watch so other can decide their opinions... I even picked a good looking string of hard strike knockouts by the Kyokushinkai fighters. But they dont have a Tank Abbot ( in his prime) rushing across the Mat at them...and can you imagine what a Chuck Liddel strike would do to these honorable Traditionalists ???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD5FQIN-hFo




My bad man.....thats cold embarrassing me about it though ;)

I stand corrected..the Indianapolis Clots....

JDK

[JDK]

Awww...someone got beat up by the football team in high school. You'll get over it in time, champ. :rolleyes:


LOL!

I am sorry ...but that was funny.

Please forgive me unkokusai for laughing.

JDK

[unkokusai]

Spread the joy!!!:D

[The Xia]

Have you ever encountered a true, tough, and technically sound TMAer before reaching this conclusion that they are no match for UFC fighters? You mention Kyokushin Karate. They have a lot of tough fighters. The rule against headshots wasn't there in the past but that's beside the point. If you think that a good Kyokushin fighter can't throw a solid punch to the head because of that rule then I don't think you really know what Kyokushin is about. And you mentioned longfist punching not being as effective as the boxing seen in MMA. Frankly, I don’t think the boxing of some MMA is even close to up to par with most pure boxers. Sometimes it just looks like plain old flailing. Once again though, that's besides the point. Have you ever seen a true, tough, and technically sound longfist fighter to come to the conclusion that longfist punches are inferior to boxing? I'd suggest you take a look at Sifu Lai Hung, a Bak Siu Lam and Choy Lay Fut teacher. He is famous for his full-contact fights all around Asia.

[SevenStar]

I respectfully disagree. I continue to practice Longfist and it would be no match for a trained UFC Fighter's Western Boxing Punches .

I trained longfist once upon a time. there is no reason why a longfist guy could not hold his own. I train with mma guys now, and they aren't always great strikers. Some are more grapling oriented. Longfist has the equivalent of basic boxing punches - they have to train them in a way conducive to fighting. heavy bag, focus mitts, plenty of combinations, etc. MasterKiller also went from longfist to mma and has said that he had no issues keep up with them from a striking perspective, but he was lost on the ground. Now, a pure boxer would likely destroy the longfist guy, but that's a different matter.



DARN! You were doing so good, and I was being so agreeable.;)

Just as the Kyokushinkai martial artist would NEVER dare step in to Today's UFC ( A few tried in the early days and almost got killed) without learning all the applicable arts for UFC fights....a UFC Fighter would dominate every Kyokushinkai
artist who tried to rely only on his Kyokushinkai training. IF said Kyokushinkai Fighter trained for the UFC Venue..they could be successful,

But you gotta know down deep in your heart, that Ortiz, Silvia, Matt Hughes, Liddel, etc...would KILL Kyokushinkai martial artists in their Kyokushinkai Venue.

Unfortunately its not a two way street.

Nah, different rules, different ruleset. Tito is awesome on the ground, but is a horrible striker. Also, in kyokushin, you can't punch to the face, nor can you grapple. There are also some very good kyokushin guys in K-1. mma fighter georges st. pierre trained kyokushinkai for 10 years, then started bjj.

[SevenStar]

Have you ever encountered a true, tough, and technically sound TMAer before reaching this conclusion that they are no match for UFC fighters? You mention Kyokushin Karate. They have a lot of tough fighters. The rule against headshots wasn't there in the past but that's beside the point. If you think that a good Kyokushin fighter can't throw a solid punch to the head because of that rule then I don't think you really know what Kyokushin is about. And you mentioned longfist punching not being as effective as the boxing seen in MMA. Frankly, I don’t think the boxing of some MMA is even close to up to par with most pure boxers. Sometimes it just looks like plain old flailing. Once again though, that's besides the point. Have you ever seen a true, tough, and technically sound longfist fighter to come to the conclusion that longfist punches are inferior to boxing? I'd suggest you take a look at Sifu Lai Hung, a Bak Siu Lam and Choy Lay Fut teacher. He is famous for his full-contact fights all around Asia.

any clips?

[The Xia]

any clips?
There may be some. If there are, I don't know where they are. Here is some information on him. http://www.buksing.com/history/lai_hung/
Here are his kwoons. http://www.htai.com/kungfu/lhcmai.html
An interview where one of his students, Sifu Dave Lacey, talks about him. http://members-central.optushome.com.au/meanstreets/clf/clfsifu.htm

[The Xia]

In fact, your action here to promote peace whenever possible goes to my belief about why there is no TMA movement underway to defeat MMA's in a contest (octagon, whatever). I personally see the ultimate goal of TMA as building the calm, confident demeanor to walk away from an antagonist whenever possible (if he leaves us no choice, well then, that's the other part of why we train). MMA is intended for the opposite: taking on the antagonist no matter what, and from what I've seen, further antagonizing and attempting to intimidate him leading up to the fight. This posturing, hubris, and trash talking is also why I don't watch boxing anymore.

So here's my question: would a TMA who showed up for a MMA event get a standing ovation for turning and walking away rather than fighting? If not, maybe
that is our answer to why we haven't seen more TMAs in contests: any TMA/CMA master who glorified and promoted violence is not someone I would want to train with, emulate, or send my students to. Fortunately, I don't personally know of any.
Historically speaking, TMA was used for fighting. It wasn't an afterthought. Period. If you'd like I can give you examples. Sure, there are other benefits to training martial arts besides fighting ability but the name martial arts says it all. And there is nothing wrong with competition. I mentioned Sifu Lai Hung. He fought in many tournaments and is a highly respect TCMA master.

[lonewolf]

Awww...someone got beat up by the football team in high school. You'll get over it in time, champ. :rolleyes:

hmm i'm sorry i was too busy bringing home medals from tae kwon do tournaments to concern myself with showering with the other guys. how much did you enjoy grabbing balls from between another man's legs? our football team had barely enough guys to be on the field coming from a class c school. besides if you're so good at that game why are you writing here instead of going pro? knee injury? that's always the lame excuse. or did somebody fumble your balls when the draft came to watch you play? in any case your the guy that sits at home ignoring his wife while watching a bunch of boys try to act tough while the rest of us are at home getting laid. high school is over and us nerds have been enjoying ourselves ever since.:cool:
p.s. how's the beer gut?

[unkokusai]

hmm i'm sorry i was too busy bringing home medals from tae kwon do tournaments to concern myself with showering with the other guys.


LOL! I knew it! You gotta move on! Sure, you were intimidated and made to feel inferior because the other kids were more aggresive and physically superior to you, but that's all in the past. Let it go! You can get past it!

[unkokusai]

our football team had barely enough guys to be on the field coming from a class c school.


So, your football team sucked and you were still not good enough to make the team. Yeah, that's gotta sting..

[unkokusai]

high school is over and us nerds have been enjoying ourselves ever since



So you admit that you were a social outcast, and that that scarred you for the rest of your life.

That's sad.

That could be a 'Made for TV Movie of the Week.'

[JDK]

I trained longfist once upon a time. there is no reason why a longfist guy could not hold his own. I train with mma guys now, and they aren't always great strikers. Some are more grapling oriented. Longfist has the equivalent of basic boxing punches - they have to train them in a way conducive to fighting. heavy bag, focus mitts, plenty of combinations, etc. MasterKiller also went from longfist to mma and has said that he had no issues keep up with them from a striking perspective, but he was lost on the ground. Now, a pure boxer would likely destroy the longfist guy, but that's a different matter.

Good point.
The highly trained Western Boxer does posses the superior punch...but only with Boxing Gloves..( remember Mike Tyson and Mitc Green's Fist fight outside a Nightclub? Tyson almost knocked his eye out of its socket...BUT...fractured his hand doing it)



Nah, different rules, different ruleset. Tito is awesome on the ground, but is a horrible striker. Also, in kyokushin, you can't punch to the face, nor can you grapple. There are also some very good kyokushin guys in K-1. mma fighter georges st. pierre trained kyokushinkai for 10 years, then started bjj.

I agree ..Tito isnt a great striker...and K-1 and Pride Fightiing have some tough Hombres...but...until some of them trained almost exclusively for the UFC...they were soundly defeated by the more well rounded UFC Fighters.
Maybe you have some names of kyokushin, K-I, Pride Fighters, etc... who have won the UCF.

Incidently..the Clip I posted showed kyokushin fighters striking hard to the head
was that an old clip? [B]The Xia informed me in his earlier posts that headstrikes were not allowed in kyokushin ..maybe I misunderstood..
he said You mention Kyokushin Karate. They have a lot of tough fighters. The rule against headshots wasn't there in the past but that's beside the point. If you think that a good Kyokushin fighter can't throw a solid punch to the head because of that rule then I don't think you really know what Kyokushin is about.


JDK

[SevenStar]

Good point.
The highly trained Western Boxer does posses the superior punch...but only with Boxing Gloves..( remember Mike Tyson and Mitc Green's Fist fight outside a Nightclub? Tyson almost knocked his eye out of its socket...BUT...fractured his hand doing it)

striking surface. I know guys who train iron palm that broke their hands in fights. Such is life. that's why the bare knuck boxers preferred to strike softer areas of the body. They still posess a superior punch, it's just all in the placement.


I agree ..Tito isnt a great striker...and K-1 and Pride Fightiing have some tough Hombres...but...until some of them trained almost exclusively for the UFC...they were soundly defeated by the more well rounded UFC Fighters.
Maybe you have some names of kyokushin, K-I, Pride Fighters, etc... who have won the UCF.

I gave you one - st pierre. the majority of his life was kyokushin. he trains bjj, wrestling, boxing and muay thai now, but has 16 years or karate and a 3rd degree black belt.


Incidently..the Clip I posted showed kyokushin fighters striking hard to the head
was that an old clip? [B]The Xia informed me in his earlier posts that headstrikes were not allowed in kyokushin ..maybe I misunderstood..
he said You mention Kyokushin Karate. They have a lot of tough fighters. The rule against headshots wasn't there in the past but that's beside the point. If you think that a good Kyokushin fighter can't throw a solid punch to the head because of that rule then I don't think you really know what Kyokushin is about.


1. you can kick to the head, not punch. Notice NONE of those clips showed a punch to the head. a punch to the head will earn disqualification.

2. you read my post wrong. I'm saying lack of head punches is a disadvantage to some mma guys, as they tend to be headhunters.

3. you fight how you train. A kyokushin guy who is used to not punching to the head will fight without punching to the head, because that is what he knows. Now, once he starts working head strikes, sure he'll do them.

[JDK]

I gave you one - st pierre. the majority of his life was kyokushin. he trains bjj, wrestling, boxing and muay thai now, but has 16 years or karate and a 3rd degree black belt.

Which UFC did he win? ? ( not trying to be smart)


1. you can kick to the head, not punch. Notice NONE of those clips showed a punch to the head. a punch to the head will earn disqualification.

2. you read my post wrong. I'm saying lack of head punches is a disadvantage to some mma guys, as they tend to be headhunters.

3. you fight how you train. A kyokushin guy who is used to not punching to the head will fight without punching to the head, because that is what he knows. Now, once he starts working head strikes, sure he'll do them.[/QUOTE]

I understand now. But Xia incinuated that kyokushin guys could win the UCF
and were better fighters. Now I find out that dont uch to the head and they dont Grapple ??????? Please give me a break...you and I both know they would get killed in the Octagon.

Bottem line in my humble opinion.....

I wish the "no rules" that were included in the firts 2 or 3 UFC Events were still in effect today.

But even today..under todays UFC guidlines , rules, time limitsand decisions...the UFC represents the best available "look" at what the best trained fighters on the Planet are and are not capable of.

I know there are underground fights today where some pretty tough guys fight

( do a [B]KIMO SLICE FIGHT search online and see an example of striking with the hands only...that will chill you. Keep in mind as you watch that as much as $10,000.00 dollars is at stake in these Backyard Fights.:eek:

I maintian..EVEN if you included groin strikes, fish hooking, eye goughing and a true no-hold-barred Fight Event...the UFC Guys would adapt and win every one...just like the last 14 years.

Can I get an AMEN?

JDK

[The Xia]

SevenStar,
I don't know your friends that trained iron palm so I can't really say anything about them. However, I will say this: iron palm conditions the hand to deliver a particular, and devastating, type of strike and conditions it to protect from injuries. The key is to train it correctly.
http://members-central.optushome.com.au/meanstreets/clf/clfsifu.htm
This link that I posted a bit earlier has a good snippet on it. Here it is, "One of the most vital parts of our training under Kong Hing was the practice of "Teet Jeung Kung" or "Teet Sar Jeung" (iron palm". The iron palm training was performed on a flat leather punching bag (filled with blue metal) which was placed on a square wooden stool. Each blow was delivered with the whole force of the body's own weight crashing down hard from a standing position (with the striking hand above head level) into a low horse stance. The power generated from the impact of such a blow, is devastating as its powerful force virtually penetrates through the body causing severe internal damage and hemorrhage - usually the recipient does not feel the initial pain until hours later. (According to Sifu Lacey, this happened to two of his students back in 1970. During separate sparring bouts with him, both had been on the end of a downward smacking backfist, on the left side of their chests. The following morning both students spat blood resulting from internal hemorrhage caused by the shock vibration of the blow upon retraction)."
How's that for conditioning? ;)
As for your comments on a pure boxer's punches compared to a longfist guy's, it depends on the man. If the longfist guy does his stuff well, he will hit very hard. The methods of punching are different but that doesn't mean they don't work. Boxing is one way to hit, but it's not the only way. It isn't superior to other methods either.
JDK,
Oops I meant to say that no punches to the head are allowed in Kyokushin fights. Kicks to the head are allowed though. And again, just because current Kyokushin rules don't allow head punches doesn't mean you shouldn't be prepared for them if you are fighting a Kyokushin man with rules that allow them. Just because they don't allow them during their fights doesn't mean the practitioner won't use them in a different venue. How many Kung Fu practitioners do you see using panther fists and tiger claws during sparring? However, if the hands are conditioned and the techniques are well drilled, don't expect them not to be used in a street situation.
And here is Georges St. Pierre's record.
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterID=3500
Lastly, UFC and MMA venues aren't the end all to fighting. In the streets, anything goes technique wise, and multiple opponents and weapons can enter the mix. So if you think that the UFC is the same as the streets, you are mistaken. It's a whole different ballgame. By the way, TMA was used for life and death combat. That's a historical fact. This doesn’t mean it can’t be used in competitions with rules. It just means that many techniques can’t be used there. However, there will still be a lot of stuff you can still use.

[SevenStar]

SevenStar,
I don't know your friends that trained iron palm so I can't really say anything about them. However, I will say this: iron palm conditions the hand to deliver a particular, and devastating, type of strike and conditions it to protect from injuries. The key is to train it correctly.

typical fashion - mung beans, 100 strikes per day per striking surface, moved on to steel shot... The hands are delicate, filled with many small bones and despite conditioning, can be broken. That's why target choice is important.


The power generated from the impact of such a blow, is devastating as its powerful force virtually penetrates through the body causing severe internal damage and hemorrhage - usually the recipient does not feel the initial pain until hours later. (According to Sifu Lacey, this happened to two of his students back in 1970. During separate sparring bouts with him, both had been on the end of a downward smacking backfist, on the left side of their chests. The following morning both students spat blood resulting from internal hemorrhage caused by the shock vibration of the blow upon retraction)."
How's that for conditioning? ;)

that is a pretty hard strike! I wonder how his hand would have fared though if a blow that hard was struck at their forehead. Target choice.


As for your comments on a pure boxer's punches compared to a longfist guy's, it depends on the man. If the longfist guy does his stuff well, he will hit very hard. The methods of punching are different but that doesn't mean they don't work. Boxing is one way to hit, but it's not the only way. It isn't superior to other methods either.

I'mnot talking about strength of the punch alone, but strength, skill, effectiveness, etc. boxers don't train kicks, forms, weapons, qigong, etc. The only thing they do is punch. I seriously doubt you will EVER find a longfist guy with hands as good as a boxer.



Lastly, UFC and MMA venues aren't the end all to fighting. In the streets, anything goes technique wise, and multiple opponents and weapons can enter the mix. So if you think that the UFC is the same as the streets, you are mistaken. It's a whole different ballgame. By the way, TMA was used for life and death combat. That's a historical fact. This doesn’t mean it can’t be used in competitions with rules. It just means that many techniques can’t be used there. However, there will still be a lot of stuff you can still use.

No, they aren't. However, they are the closest thing available to it right now, which is what he's saying. Even in no rules vale tudo, you didn't see many of the techniques many of you guys talk about. That's gotta make you wonder why. Also, gladiators fought in sport to the death - wrestling and boxing. muay was the battlefield art of the soldiers of thailand. These things have been used in life or death combat as well, this is a proven fact. That really has no real relevance to the art or how it is trained today though, nor does it have any relevance to cma today.

[JDK]

With the Obvious devestating power that a True Iron Palm Master posseses,
why have NONE stepped forward and won any of the 68 UFC's ?

It would'nt matter WHO they were facing...One slap anywhere on the trunk, head or bladder are would end the fight.

If it was a grappler rushing in..a Striker staying away ( the Iron PALM man would have to be patient and let the Striker come within range) thenBAM*!

FIGHT OVER........

PS: Feel free to substitute Pride Fighting, K-I or any other Organized Contest out there...the question remains the same, Iron Palm is not outlawed or forbidden by the rules....so why hasnt anyone in 13 Years just Won One...just One...to get the money, validate and vindicate the accussations against TMA's...???

JDK




Bottem line in my humble opinion.....

I wish the "no rules" that were included in the firts 2 or 3 UFC Events were still in effect today.

But even today..under todays UFC guidlines , rules, time limitsand decisions...the UFC represents the best available "look" at what the best trained fighters on the Planet are and are not capable of.

I know there are underground fights today where some pretty tough guys fight

( do a KIMO SLICE FIGHT search online and see an example of striking with the hands only...that will chill you. Keep in mind as you watch that as much as $10,000.00 dollars is at stake in these Backyard Fights.

I maintian..EVEN if you included groin strikes, fish hooking, eye goughing and a true no-hold-barred Fight Event...the UFC Guys would adapt and win every one...just like the last 14 years.

Can I get an AMEN?

JDK
__________________
"It's not WHO'S right...its WHAT'S right" Truth Comes from many Sources
so try and disregard WHO is saying it..and explore if WHAT is being said has any Truth to It.[

[SevenStar]

you train all cma styles... why do you seem so adamantly against them? As for Iron palm, the hand is very delicate with many small bones. Their hands can break as well if a strike is misplaced. in a battle of iron palm master's fist vs. anyone's skull, I choose the skull. you likely will not find any iron palm master interested in competing though, if there are even any who are young enough... I don't keep up with the CMA scene a whole lot anymore, so I have no clue who the youngest known iron palm master is.

[JDK]

you train all cma styles... why do you seem so adamantly against them? As for Iron palm, the hand is very delicate with many small bones. Their hands can break as well if a strike is misplaced. in a battle of iron palm master's fist vs. anyone's skull, I choose the skull. you likely will not find any iron palm master interested in competing though, if there are even any who are young enough... I don't keep up with the CMA scene a whole lot anymore, so I have no clue who the youngest known iron palm master is.

I know it must seem I am against them....but I would'nt continue to train in them if I there were not other things to consider besides winning a UFC Competition. I am too old for that now anyways....( maybe some here saw the beating Shamrock took at the hands of Ortiz.. TWICE!:(

The UFC is a Game for the Young.

The CMA's can be praticed for lifetime.....reason number one that I practice them.

2) They do not "burn the body out" prematuraly like the Competitive Sports.
( In Boxing all trainers know that a fighter only has so many fights in them...and then they can "grow old' overnight

3) CMA's are quite effective for most conflicts one encounters in life. I seriously doubt I will ever have Chuck Liddel or ST Pierre encounter me and want to fight;)

4) CMA's contain the proper balance of Ying/Yang..unlike the excess Yang training in the Sport based Contests and Schools.

5) Weapon Training, and herbal supplementaton instead of Steriods and other harmful Drugs like HGH....

I could on...but the Lifetime Health Benefits are invaluable in my opinion.

My only dissappointment was that no Traditional Master has ever won a UFC Contest....training the traditional way with Iron Palm, Body, Stone Warrior
Iron Vest, Power Times Nine, etc.....

It is BECAUSE of my love for the Traditional Kung-Fu Styles that I would like to see a victory in a "World's Best Fighter" type , no holds barred Competition..no matter if it is the UFC, PRIDE FIGHTING, K-1, etc...

It's just a sobering conclusion to me...that at the end of the day...to be the best possible Fighter one can possibly be....one would HAVE to train like a UFC Top Contender.

I had this hope that us CMA's could produce someome who could win ..just once.

My own personal hang-up I guess...so I am ready to move on....

JDK

[SevenStar]

that burnout is largely a myth. you cannot COMPETE at an advanced age, but you can always train. one of my judo coaches is 80. he still rolls. another is in his early 40's and still competes on an international level. couture is in early 40's. people associate the ring game with the entire career. because one stops competing does not mean that one quits training.

[JDK]

You are right SevenStar ...I didnt mean to question the abilit of many to continue practicing most of their entire life.

As I shared on another post my 68 year old former teacher not onlyabout broke my forearms with his Three Star Blocks....but worked out at least Twice every day...PLUS on Class teaching Nights ( Mon, Tue, Wed, Fri) he didnt just sit and observe...he participated in the entire workout ( sometimes his 3rd of that day) with us...from the first 35 minute Static Stances, Snake Turns Over, Tiger Isometric, Tokens and of course the Instruction/ evaluation of each student
concernign what they were working on, andwhere they were in their training!

PLUS...one night a week HE was instructed by Master Ong..and then later Stephen Ong on a seperate Night for Black Belts Only!!!!!:eek: And from what I heard...both Ong's were very hard and disciplined, and demanded 100% effort from their Black Belts, regardless of their age!!!!!(

Stephen came down a few times during our Greenbelt Class Night ( he was around 20 at the time) and the entire tone of the Class would change.( As a 2 year student part of me hated it when he came down..because I knew we were in for a long night! ..The other part of me loved it though...knowing we would receive fresh information, direct correction on any mistakes ... and of course Martial Arts wisdom beyond his years.

Bob Keen joined us in lineup as a Student..and we practiced even harder, as Stephen's workout was much more strenuous and demanding! ( at 20 years Old..he couldnt understand why everything was so hard for us...he would stick out his leg in perfect waist high side-kick position...and talk to us at the same time..sometimes for over 2 minutes. His legs never quivered, shook and I never saw his balance faulter. ( I guess doing Stances from age 8 or 9 will do tha for you!:)

Bob Keen was and IS living proof to me that Traditional Shaolin and related Arts do allow for longevity and continued strength and stamina and good health.

I really miss those days.......

JDK

[The Xia]

SevenStar,
I agree that target choice is important. Many hand weapons work better on certain parts of the body then others. Iron palm does have a purpose but I don’t generally see it associated with things like punching the skull. Knuckles can be conditioned pretty **** well too though so I don't rule out the possibility of having good bare knuckle punches to the skull. I know other arts were used for no-rules combat, I'm just pointing out that CMA was. You don't generally see the types of techniques I mentioned in Vale Tudo because CMA practitioners, past and present, don't generally enter many of those. However, those techniques were used and are functional. Only a fool would poo poo them because you don't see it in the UFC. They may save your life one day. That doesn't mean a good hip toss can't do the same in a different situation. I'm just saying that you should train what suits you and consider all the angles. As for not finding a longfist guy that punches as well as a boxer, I disagree. It really depends on the practitioner. Boxers also train cardio, footwork, bobbing and weaving, etc. The thing is that they are limited to punching. This leads some to believe they are the best punchers. However, there are some boxers that don't have the best hands but rely on other things such as a cast iron jaw, phenomenal stamina, footwork, etc. I've seen fighters like that. Besides, the kinds of punching longfist has are different then boxing. It's like comparing apples and oranges. I will say one thing though, there is definitely a greater variety of hand techniques in longfist then in boxing. That doesn't mean anything unless the fighter can use all of it though. If the boxer is better with his less encompassing arsenal then the longfist guy is with his vast array of hand techniques, then the boxer has better hands. If the longfist guy is great with all his hand techniques, then that’s a different story.
JDK,
I think the reason why you don't see much TMA in MMA is because most TMA guys that want to compete generally go to their own venues. The martial arts world is divided into various communities. Sure they interact and crossover but the leap of TMA into the octagon really hasn't happened. That doesn’t discredit the validity of TMA in fighting though.

[SevenStar]

You don't generally see the types of techniques I mentioned in Vale Tudo because CMA practitioners, past and present, don't generally enter many of those.

list a few of them. I'm sure they have been seen before. No rules is no rules. I'm sure someone in another style at some point has thought of similar techniques.


However, those techniques were used and are functional. Only a fool would poo poo them because you don't see it in the UFC.

vale tudo and ufc are different entities. the vale tudo fights had few to no rules.


As for not finding a longfist guy that punches as well as a boxer, I disagree. It really depends on the practitioner. Boxers also train cardio, footwork, bobbing and weaving, etc. The thing is that they are limited to punching.[/.quote]

ALL of those are integrated into the punching. you bob and weave while punching on the mitts. you build cardio while shadow boxing and sparring, etc. the components of cma I mentioned are not like this.


[quote]This leads some to believe they are the best punchers. However, there are some boxers that don't have the best hands but rely on other things such as a cast iron jaw, phenomenal stamina, footwork, etc. I've seen fighters like that.

can you name or post footage of even one longfist guy who punches better than a boxer?


Besides, the kinds of punching longfist has are different then boxing. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

sure it is - the methodology and techniques differ. But I would say boxing's usage of hands is superior, mainly for the same reasons I always mention. That's not to say boxing is better than longfist overall.



I think the reason why you don't see much TMA in MMA is because most TMA guys that want to compete generally go to their own venues. The martial arts world is divided into various communities. Sure they interact and crossover but the leap of TMA into the octagon really hasn't happened. That doesn’t discredit the validity of TMA in fighting though.

to be honest, I think that there would be a lot more tma in mma if the tma had more success earlier. You know that mma guys are all about adapting. If tma would've had more success than muay thai, they would all be training tma and fighting with it. However, there weren't any really remarkable successes with tma in mma history, other than keith hackney.

[The Xia]

list a few of them. I'm sure they have been seen before. No rules is no rules. I'm sure someone in another style at some point has thought of similar techniques.
I agree that you will see small joint manipulation, kicks to the knee, eye gouging, etc in venues that would allow them no matter what kind of martial artists enter. But something like a panther fist is CMA.

vale tudo and ufc are different entities. the vale tudo fights had few to no rules.
I know this. A lot of old school BJJ fighters came from this format.

ALL of those are integrated into the punching. you bob and weave while punching on the mitts. you build cardio while shadow boxing and sparring, etc. the components of cma I mentioned are not like this.
I wouldn't say that. Sparring is sparring and will build stamina no matter what stylist is doing it. CMA has punching, blocking, and evading drills as well. To some extent, you can even compare forms to shadow boxing using various combo sets. I also see no reason why a CMA guy can't freestyle shadowbox using his stuff either.

can you name or post footage of even one longfist guy who punches better than a boxer?

sure it is - the methodology and techniques differ. But I would say boxing's usage of hands is superior, mainly for the same reasons I always mention. That's not to say boxing is better than longfist overall.
There's many great longfist guys. If I name or post a video of any one of them, or even an average longfist guy, he'll likely have better hands then a lousy boxer. And lousy boxers do exist. And even if we are comparing said longfist guys to skilled boxers, who is to say that the boxer will always have better hands? Sure boxing is all about punching but I can name styles of CMA that focus more on a single aspect too (perhaps not to the extent of boxing though). Take Wing Chun for example. They have some kicks and other stuff but the system is more hand focused. That doesn't necessarily mean a Wing Chun guy will have better hands then someone from a CMA that isn't as hand focused. It depends on the person. Overall though, I’d say longfist styles have more variety of hand techniques then boxing. So if the longfist guy can use his extensive arsenal better, why wouldn’t he have better hands? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying boxing sucks. It’s not a complete system though. So to be a complete fighter, you can’t rely solely on boxing. Crosstraining in it is fine towards that end though.

to be honest, I think that there would be a lot more tma in mma if the tma had more success earlier. You know that mma guys are all about adapting. If tma would've had more success than muay thai, they would all be training tma and fighting with it. However, there weren't any really remarkable successes with tma in mma history, other than keith hackney.
I would agree that perhaps MMA would be different if TMA did better early on. I think the reason it didn’t is really because of the TMA people rather then the actual TMA. Muay Thai guys in general spar more then most TMA guys. A lot of TMA guys that entered probably had point sparring as the sum of fighting experience. Many people in TMA also don’t understand the contents of their forms and don’t drill techniques well or enough. Many TMA also guys neglect conditioning. If those guys sparred in more realistic ways, understood their styles, drilled their techniques better, and were well conditioned, the story might be different. So I say it’s not the fault of the actual arts, but many of the current practitioners.

[SevenStar]

I agree that you will see small joint manipulation, kicks to the knee, eye gouging, etc in venues that would allow them no matter what kind of martial artists enter. But something like a panther fist is CMA.

panther fist.... that's the same as a half knuckle, right? I learned in in both tang soo do and jma.


I wouldn't say that. Sparring is sparring and will build stamina no matter what stylist is doing it. CMA has punching, blocking, and evading drills as well. To some extent, you can even compare forms to shadow boxing using various combo sets. I also see no reason why a CMA guy can't freestyle shadowbox using his stuff either.

I think you missed my point. sure a cma can do those things. but those are the core of what a boxer does. When a cma does forms, he's not training techniques and combinations how he would use them in a fight, necessarily. A boxer is. Qigong training is not building my attributes at the same time as it trains my striking as I would use it in a fight, etc. When I hit mitts, the bag, spar, etc. I am punching the entire time. The whole workout I am getting cardio AND training my technique. it's simultaneous. much of tma is not that way.



There's many great longfist guys. If I name or post a video of any one of them, or even an average longfist guy, he'll likely have better hands then a lousy boxer. And lousy boxers do exist.

why compare a great longfist guy to a lousy boxer?


And even if we are comparing said longfist guys to skilled boxers, who is to say that the boxer will always have better hands? Sure boxing is all about punching but I can name styles of CMA that focus more on a single aspect too (perhaps not to the extent of boxing though). Take Wing Chun for example. They have some kicks and other stuff but the system is more hand focused.

you said it - they focus on punching, but not to the extent of boxing. I remember seeing threads on the WC forum where wc guys have said boxing has superior hands to wc. There have also been several threads on cross training wc and boxing.


That doesn't necessarily mean a Wing Chun guy will have better hands then someone from a CMA that isn't as hand focused. It depends on the person. Overall though, I’d say longfist styles have more variety of hand techniques then boxing. So if the longfist guy can use his extensive arsenal better, why wouldn’t he have better hands? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying boxing sucks. It’s not a complete system though. So to be a complete fighter, you can’t rely solely on boxing. Crosstraining in it is fine towards that end though.

having many tools only means that - you have many tools. simplicity is a wonderful thing. boxing and judo, boxing and bjj, etc. the same would be said in terms of longfist and crosstraining - longfist isn't complete.


I would agree that perhaps MMA would be different if TMA did better early on. I think the reason it didn’t is really because of the TMA people rather then the actual TMA.

I don't. The main drawback of the early tma was that they did no grappling and trained improperly for the venue. The fate would've been the same. That said, if tma did get back into mma and cross trained some grappling and adapted their training for the venue, they would do better. That's something I'd like to see.


Muay Thai guys in general spar more then most TMA guys. A lot of TMA guys that entered probably had point sparring as the sum of fighting experience. Many people in TMA also don’t understand the contents of their forms and don’t drill techniques well or enough. Many TMA also guys neglect conditioning. If those guys sparred in more realistic ways, understood their styles, drilled their techniques better, and were well conditioned, the story might be different. So I say it’s not the fault of the actual arts, but many of the current practitioners.

I don't disagree with that. It's always the fault of the practitioner. That said though, the traditional styles don't make provisions for these things - sport styles do. That is one major advantage of them in these events.

[The Xia]

panther fist.... that's the same as a half knuckle, right? I learned in in both tang soo do and jma.
It is a knuckle strike. It's also a Choy Lay Fut signature technique. You can get a bit of information on some ways it can be used on this link. http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/ten_elements.htm
Go to Chop.
To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if you find a panther fist in Okinawan Karate or Chinese derived Korean arts. After all, it's possible with the Chinese influence. However, in a Vale Tudo match which is mostly BJJ and a few other arts, are you really going to see that?

I think you missed my point. sure a cma can do those things. but those are the core of what a boxer does. When a cma does forms, he's not training techniques and combinations how he would use them in a fight, necessarily. A boxer is. Qigong training is not building my attributes at the same time as it trains my striking as I would use it in a fight, etc. When I hit mitts, the bag, spar, etc. I am punching the entire time. The whole workout I am getting cardio AND training my technique. it's simultaneous. much of tma is not that way.
Qigong does have a purpose in training as do forms. The problem is that many practice them incorrectly. Forms are a catalogue of a given styles techniques. They allow you to work them solo. They also provide conditioning if done well.

why compare a great longfist guy to a lousy boxer?
Just making a point. I think too many people assume that all "sport" martial artists are people who actually fight. This isn't always the case. Although on average, I will agree more "sport" martial artists fight then "traditional" martial artists.

you said it - they focus on punching, but not to the extent of boxing. I remember seeing threads on the WC forum where wc guys have said boxing has superior hands to wc. There have also been several threads on cross training wc and boxing.
There's no problem cross training Wing Chun and boxing. That's fine. However, I still maintain that it's not boxing that has better hands then Wing Chun, but you may find boxers that have better hands then chunners. You may also find chunners that have better hands then boxers. It's all about the individual.

having many tools only means that - you have many tools. simplicity is a wonderful thing. boxing and judo, boxing and bjj, etc. the same would be said in terms of longfist and crosstraining - longfist isn't complete.
Longfist has all sorts of strikes, throws, and joint locks. That's pretty complete to me. That still doesn't mean you can't cross train though. Adding an art with more of a ground fighting focus like Judo or BJJ can't do any harm. Adding a striking art with shorter range techniques like Wing Chun can prove successful as well. I think that adding any art to the mix will be fine so long as the fighter can use it.

I don't. The main drawback of the early tma was that they did no grappling and trained improperly for the venue. The fate would've been the same. That said, if tma did get back into mma and cross trained some grappling and adapted their training for the venue, they would do better. That's something I'd like to see.


I don't disagree with that. It's always the fault of the practitioner. That said though, the traditional styles don't make provisions for these things - sport styles do. That is one major advantage of them in these events.
See, here is the thing. To me, TMA that doesn’t train to fight really isn’t all that traditional. In the past, TMA guys fought. I don’t care if they are Chinese, Korean, Japanese, American, Brazilian, or whatever, anyone who fights will likely have training that reflects that. Drilling and conditioning was huge in the past. Drilling techniques over and over against increasing levels of resistance allows you to learn to use the techniques. They did forms too. But they did forms correctly, with intent and proper body mechanics. They also understood the applications to the forms, and as said before, drilled them constantly. Many of these guys also fought too. That is what is traditional. Because of the fact that many of the old timers actually fought, they really couldn't afford to train like many of the so called traditionalists of today. As far as I’m concerned, doing forms without proper understanding and drilling techniques and conditioning rarely or never isn’t traditional. How did TMA get to this state, well that’s a long story but I think most of us know the answer anyway.

[SevenStar]

It is a knuckle strike. It's also a Choy Lay Fut signature technique. You can get a bit of information on some ways it can be used on this link. http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/ten_elements.htm
Go to Chop.
To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if you find a panther fist in Okinawan Karate or Chinese derived Korean arts. After all, it's possible with the Chinese influence. However, in a Vale Tudo match which is mostly BJJ and a few other arts, are you really going to see that?

Do you really think anything is new to any style? aside from capoeira and muay thai, I don't think I've seen a lot of techniques that aren't shared across other styles. I would fully expect that at some point in time a brazilian fighter used or discovered a use this strike, particularly if it was used with success.


Qigong does have a purpose in training as do forms. The problem is that many practice them incorrectly. Forms are a catalogue of a given styles techniques. They allow you to work them solo. They also provide conditioning if done well.

I know they have purpose in training. But they are not serving their purpose at the same time that you are learning how to strike. with mitts, I build cardiod while honing my striking. with the bag, I build strength while honing my striking. In shadow boxing, I build cardio while honing my striking. the attributes training and skill training are integrated. that is my point.


Just making a point. I think too many people assume that all "sport" martial artists are people who actually fight. This isn't always the case. Although on average, I will agree more "sport" martial artists fight then "traditional" martial artists.

No, it's not always the case, but the training is the same nonetheless. the ones that come consistently will be in some sort of fighting shape. The guys we have who fight will put in some extra time with coaches after class and on non class days to train, but the actual class training for fighters and non-fighters is the exact same, from the calesthenics to the sparring.


There's no problem cross training Wing Chun and boxing. That's fine. However, I still maintain that it's not boxing that has better hands then Wing Chun, but you may find boxers that have better hands then chunners. You may also find chunners that have better hands then boxers. It's all about the individual.

we'll disagree on that one. theoretically speaking, a TKD guy can have better hands than a boxer. How likely is it? it's not. Why? because of the methodology of tkd.


Longfist has all sorts of strikes, throws, and joint locks. That's pretty complete to me. That still doesn't mean you can't cross train though. Adding an art with more of a ground fighting focus like Judo or BJJ can't do any harm. Adding a striking art with shorter range techniques like Wing Chun can prove successful as well. I think that adding any art to the mix will be fine so long as the fighter can use it.

the ground component is lacking in longfist, which is why I say it's incomplete. All arts will be lacking in some area.


See, here is the thing. To me, TMA that doesn’t train to fight really isn’t all that traditional. In the past, TMA guys fought. I don’t care if they are Chinese, Korean, Japanese, American, Brazilian, or whatever, anyone who fights will likely have training that reflects that.

not the same. the training is venue specific when you are talking about these types of things. training for judo shiai will not prepare me for a muay thai match. training for an mma match will not be the same as training for a san shou match. Regardless of the tma taining to fight, unless they are training specifically to fight mma matches, then they will be handicapped in an mma match. Now from an overall self defense perspecitve, yes, you are correct.

[The Xia]

Do you really think anything is new to any style? aside from capoeira and muay thai, I don't think I've seen a lot of techniques that aren't shared across other styles. I would fully expect that at some point in time a brazilian fighter used or discovered a use this strike, particularly if it was used with success.
I can't say for sure that a pure BJJ guy never used a panther fist or some variation. However, it isn't something trained in BJJ so how will you learn to use it?

I know they have purpose in training. But they are not serving their purpose at the same time that you are learning how to strike. with mitts, I build cardiod while honing my striking. with the bag, I build strength while honing my striking. In shadow boxing, I build cardio while honing my striking. the attributes training and skill training are integrated. that is my point.
You said you build cardio and work on striking while shadowboxing. The same can be said for people who do forms correctly.

No, it's not always the case, but the training is the same nonetheless. the ones that come consistently will be in some sort of fighting shape. The guys we have who fight will put in some extra time with coaches after class and on non class days to train, but the actual class training for fighters and non-fighters is the exact same, from the calesthenics to the sparring.
You can say the same for a good TMA place.

we'll disagree on that one. theoretically speaking, a TKD guy can have better hands than a boxer. How likely is it? it's not. Why? because of the methodology of tkd.
I agree that it wouldn't be likely. But look at what TKD has become. I heard that once upon a time it was different. If this is true, then wouldn't the chances of finding some TKD guys in the past with better hands then some boxers increase?

the ground component is lacking in longfist, which is why I say it's incomplete. All arts will be lacking in some area.
There is ground fighting in CMA. Although with the exception of Shuai Jiao and Fujienese Dog Boxing, it doesn't seem to be a focus. I never said anything is wrong with training more grappling and ground fighting focused styles in addition to more standup focused arts.

not the same. the training is venue specific when you are talking about these types of things. training for judo shiai will not prepare me for a muay thai match. training for an mma match will not be the same as training for a san shou match. Regardless of the tma taining to fight, unless they are training specifically to fight mma matches, then they will be handicapped in an mma match. Now from an overall self defense perspecitve, yes, you are correct.
I agree with you on this.

[Shaolin Wookie]

sure it is - the methodology and techniques differ. But I would say boxing's usage of hands is superior, mainly for the same reasons I always mention. That's not to say boxing is better than longfist overall.
.

Watch Andre Ward fight.....all in the feet...but then again, he was playing the "rules" and "scoring card" game rather than the KO game.

Boxers will always have the strongest punch, cuz they line up the shoulder, elbow, and wrist, and this is generally frowned upon in kung fu. With joint manipulation, it sets you up for some nasty stuff, if a good enough practitioner is on the other end.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I can't say for sure that a pure BJJ guy never used a panther fist or some variation. However, it isn't something trained in BJJ so how will you learn to use it?

Or more importantly, where and when to use it, the best angle, or with rotation or no rotation, etc....

[The Xia]

Boxers will always have the strongest punch, cuz they line up the shoulder, elbow, and wrist, and this is generally frowned upon in kung fu. With joint manipulation, it sets you up for some nasty stuff, if a good enough practitioner is on the other end.
I still disagree with the notion that a boxer will always have the strongest punch. There are martial artists from various styles that have punches that can match up to boxers. Don't forget that there are many ways to throw a punch. The kind of punches that a boxer throws will not necessarily do the same type of damage then that of other stylists. For example, many styles have a punch where the impact sort of surges through the person's body. It’s really not that far off from an iron palm strike. This can cause a lot of internal damage if someone pulls it off right. What I'm saying is that a punch isn't always the same. Different kinds of hurt and damage can be dealt out with a fist. I'm sure many people on this board know what I'm talking about. Actually, this line of thought has given me an idea for a new thread.

Or more importantly, where and when to use it, the best angle, or with rotation or no rotation, etc....
True. Thanks for elaborating. :)

[SevenStar]

I can't say for sure that a pure BJJ guy never used a panther fist or some variation. However, it isn't something trained in BJJ so how will you learn to use it?

we were discussing vale tudo. I'm sure they have run across it in training. BJJ, probably not so much.


You said you build cardio and work on striking while shadowboxing. The same can be said for people who do forms correctly.

sure. But not during qigong, weapons, meditation, iron palm, etc. There are more disconnects in cma.


You can say the same for a good TMA place.

I'd say the jury is out on that one. you can't really measure whether or not you are in shape for a street fight. What we can say is that most tma are not ready for sport fighting from normal training alone.

[/quote]I agree that it wouldn't be likely. But look at what TKD has become. I heard that once upon a time it was different. If this is true, then wouldn't the chances of finding some TKD guys in the past with better hands then some boxers increase?[/quote]

no. tkd is kick oriented. older tang soo do had more japanese like hand strikes, but I wouldn't put them anywhere near a boxer's caliber either.


There is ground fighting in CMA. Although with the exception of Shuai Jiao and Fujienese Dog Boxing, it doesn't seem to be a focus. I never said anything is wrong with training more grappling and ground fighting focused styles in addition to more standup focused arts.


ground grappling and ground striking are not the same. I would still consider it incomplete. IMO, having grappling in your forms does not mean much.

[SevenStar]

I still disagree with the notion that a boxer will always have the strongest punch. There are martial artists from various styles that have punches that can match up to boxers. Don't forget that there are many ways to throw a punch. The kind of punches that a boxer throws will not necessarily do the same type of damage then that of other stylists. For example, many styles have a punch where the impact sort of surges through the person's body. It’s really not that far off from an iron palm strike. This can cause a lot of internal damage if someone pulls it off right. What I'm saying is that a punch isn't always the same. Different kinds of hurt and damage can be dealt out with a fist. I'm sure many people on this board know what I'm talking about. Actually, this line of thought has given me an idea for a new thread.


we've actually had some of those discussions before, based off of discussions like the one we are having now. A lot of the cma agreed that power really isn't generated much differently, if at all in most cases.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Rooting is always the basis of power generation, and the ground is our primary weapon. Boxers get power by rotating off of the back foot's toes.....in much CMA (not all....jade ring is kind of like boxing) heel-ground contact is paramount......

[SevenStar]

Rooting is always the basis of power generation, and the ground is our primary weapon. Boxers get power by rotating off of the back foot's toes.....in much CMA (not all....jade ring is kind of like boxing) heel-ground contact is paramount......

sure,but that changes neither the way power is generated, nor the path of its release.

[The Xia]

we've actually had some of those discussions before, based off of discussions like the one we are having now. A lot of the cma agreed that power really isn't generated much differently, if at all in most cases.
Does boxing have duan jing?
It's described here. http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Taichi/combat.html#principles

Duan Jing: Short Energy
This type of energy emission is less common and is considered a rather advanced method. The energy transmission path is shorter than that of Long Energy and originates at the centre of mass which is supported via the rooting leg. The energy emission begins at the centre of mass and propogates outwards. Down the root and out through the limbs. It is targeted on and acts upon the centre of mass of the opponent directly, using it as a base for a crushing attack that ruptures organs, rends musculature and breaks bones.
The fastest application of such energy is called Leng Jing or Cold Energy. The reason it is called this is that the emission was so sudden that it catches the opponent by great surprise, so great it became fright, causing him to break out in cold sweat.

[SevenStar]

short power? I would argue that it does in some aspect. infighting techniques are all done in close and should be done with no wind up. you can also see yielding, listening and several other energies in boxing and muay thai.

[Mas Judt]

There is significant sophistication in some CMA. But a lot of the stuff those CMA guys think are completely lacking in Muay Thai or Boxing (or no equivilant existing) have not been exposed to good Muay Thai or Boxing. Or they are blind.

There is a reason Western Boxing was incorporated into San Shou - quickest route to usable hand skills.

Honestly, I can't stand the CMA guys who will argue this stuff and not prove it live. On the other hand, I know several who can and do... (Seven, Brian just put the beat down on an MMA challenger to his Long Fist school. How embarrassng is THAT. Of course, they don't know who Brian is or what Long Fist is really like...)

At the end of the day, the conversation should be on training methods, strategy and results. At the end of the day, the only thing worth discussing are usable skills.


-- Oh, Seven, heel down - done correct does change how power is generated and released. Or I should say, it CAN, based upon understanding. Those CMA guys have a lot of wierd stuff.

[SevenStar]

I woulda liked to have seen that - did he actually challenge brian (dumb ass) or did he just talk smack about the school in general?

How does heel down vs heel up change how it's generated?

LOL, the filter censors dumb ass as one word, but not seperately.

[Mas Judt]

He started with talking smack and offered to prove his point. He walked away stunned, feeling he needed to rethink his approach. He said he was pretty experienced, but everyone says that to Brian before they get introduced to the ground.


Heel down allows you to engage the spine in developing power. This is a distinct skill that I have only found in CMA. Actually, there IS a bunch of stuff in CMA that just does not exist in the West. but most CMA guys don't realize what is IN Western MA. (Somehow Muay Thai gets clasified this way - but it's not - it is good silat stripped down for sport combat. So no surprise on shared principles.)

[SevenStar]

how does the foot orientation change engage the spine? does it detract in any way from using the ball of the foot, or is it the same, PLUS spine engagement?

[Mas Judt]

Call me.

It's a different mechanic not based on driving the hips or centrifugal force. But easier to explain in conversation.

[SevenStar]

Your phone will ring today.

[Water-quan]

In all, I think the best way to learn to fight is to do something that allows you to fight. .

When it comes sparring time, you should have butterflies and worries. If you don't, then maybe it's time to go on a walk about, train with different people, different places that give you butterflies and worries.

It's easy to stay in a place where yo are dominant... but to fight is frightening, so the only training that can help isn't about style, it's about the daring... the butterflies and worries. Step in to another school, and you'll feel them again...

As for what to do in a fight - every one knows what to do - it's not rocket sceince, lol - it's just the doing it under pressure that is difficult. The only training for that is to put yourself under pressure... butterflies and worries.

[SevenStar]

When it comes sparring time, you should have butterflies and worries. If you don't, then maybe it's time to go on a walk about, train with different people, different places that give you butterflies and worries.

It's easy to stay in a place where yo are dominant... but to fight is frightening, so the only training that can help isn't about style, it's about the daring... the butterflies and worries. Step in to another school, and you'll feel them again...

As for what to do in a fight - every one knows what to do - it's not rocket sceince, lol - it's just the doing it under pressure that is difficult. The only training for that is to put yourself under pressure... butterflies and worries.

sparring is not frightening. I do not get butterflies when I spar, regardless of whether it's someone in my club or from another. It's still sparring. there is an understanding there. In the ring, that's where butterflies come in. There you have an understanding, but a different one - you understand that he wants to knock you out.

[Water-quan]

sparring is not frightening. I do not get butterflies when I spar, regardless of whether it's someone in my club or from another. It's still sparring. there is an understanding there. In the ring, that's where butterflies come in. There you have an understanding, but a different one - you understand that he wants to knock you out.

No butterflies? That means no real danger, or no real care.

[msg]

i know a lot of people that dont have butterflys i never had them dosent mean there no danger just some people are more scaried than others

[Water-quan]

i know a lot of people that dont have butterflys i never had them dosent mean there no danger just some people are more scaried than others


There's no shame in being scared. The greatest of fighters talk of nerves. It;s thepeople who claim no nerves that I distrust. Maybe it's because they stay in clubs where they are the seniors and can easily defeat juniors... or maybe they always maintain a certain level, always fighting people of a certain level, I don't know.

Anyway, that is all just grabbing the surface of what I have said. Having a real fight is a terrifying experience, but experience of terror helps. No amount of so so no risk sparring will surfice as pressure training. To pressure train you need to put yourself under some pressure. Even forms competitors know that when you do it in fornt of a crowdm under the pressure of the competition, all bets are off and everythign is scarier, the legs go weak and so on.

Those who want to play at no fear then good for them - no one is doing anything wrong - it's just different ways and means. Those who actually want any real skill, then one way I have found is to continuosly seek out people who are better than you, whilst at the same time having people who are not as good as you to train with as well - the combination of the two provides excellent means of adapting, testing, practicing and overcoming.

I feel fear plenty. I get butterflies and sometimes wish I wasn't doing it and was anywhere else. Those boxers who feel nothing - well, that's not worth a penny.

[Mas Judt]

You just need to learn how to digest the butterflies. Hmmm. Good eating.

[Bagua8]

martial arts are as effective as you want them to be. everyone has a personal preference. They've been proven through time. tkd was used by koreans to defeat the occupying manchus. ex: The high kicks were useful for kicking them off horseback. Shoalin kung fu was proven its usefulness when bandits attached the shaolin temple and the monks put them in their place. It is better to know many martial arts than 1, each 1 has its strong point.

[JDK]

martial arts are as effective as you want them to be. everyone has a personal preference. They've been proven through time. tkd was used by koreans to defeat the occupying manchus. ex: The high kicks were useful for kicking them off horseback. Shoalin kung fu was proven its usefulness when bandits attached the shaolin temple and the monks put them in their place. It is better to know many martial arts than 1, each 1 has its strong point.

You make a good point Bagua8, in that knowing many styles, technigues, and a variety of cross-training is an indispensable part of today's Martial Artist who desires to be effective in real-life situations.

Each art does have it's strong points and some not-so-strong parts.

In my humble opinion.....we are living in a time not experienced or faced by the fighters of any past generation.
As man has progressed in knowledge and wisdom in every area from medicine to electronics to Physical conditioning ....Why would Supplementation of the practice of fighting with a Variety of styles and different training regimenes not ALSO evolve by 2007 ?

My opinion is this.

The well trained Baqua practioner with several years of consistant, effective teaching and practicing of the 8 Palms, Cirle Walking, etc.....would probabley be able to defend himself against the average untrained fighter...and also a fighter trained in the more Sport orientated arts such as Sport Judo, Korean Traditional Karate, Competition Sport Karate and even the average Western Style Boxer, etc...

The problem we face now as Martial Artist is real life fighting ( not sparring) against trained, cardiovascularly fit, weightlifting, Heavy Bag Hitting, Bulked up men who have learned Grappling, Stand-up, Submissions, Ground fighting, etc... who have now been training in not only Real Competitive Sparring and training...but also Pride Fighting, UFC, Muay Tia, Jujitsu and other Real Contact Events in Rings, Octagons and on the Street.

Today's Martial Artist should be at least aquianted with all of these...and then pick a specialty that suits his Body Style, Strengths and then practice , practice , PRACTICE! FULL CONTACT...FULL OUT IN THE GYM...( WITH Protective Gear)
and then practice the "Softer Internal Arts" to compliment their Real Life Fighting training.

Peace

JDK

[JDK]

sparring is not frightening. I do not get butterflies when I spar, regardless of whether it's someone in my club or from another. It's still sparring. there is an understanding there.

In the ring, that's where butterflies come in. [u]There you have an understanding, but a different one - you understand that he wants to knock you out.!!!![/quote]

Love that last sentence..:D How true!

Peace
JDK

[SevenStar]

They've been proven through time.

doesn't matter. you can't base YOUR ability NOW on what somebody else did years ago. the art didn't prove itself, the people using them proved themselves.



tkd was used by koreans to defeat the occupying manchus. ex: The high kicks were useful for kicking them off horseback.

I've heard similar about the chinese use of high kicks. I would bet money that it is just a myth. I would really love to see a speeding horseman get taken down of his horse by a flying sidekick. Even if it's true, at what expense to the kicker? He HAD to get injured, I mean come on - he's kicking an armored object moving faster than he is. that means he likely would have injured his leg, resulting in him falling. Then what, he gets trampled by the next horse?


Shoalin kung fu was proven its usefulness when bandits attached the shaolin temple and the monks put them in their place. It is better to know many martial arts than 1, each 1 has its strong point.

in some sense, sure. learn striking and grappling. However, I don't see much benefit to knowing several similar arts. IMO, learning longfist, wing chun, shotokan, CLF, TKD and wado ryu would be pointless.

[BraveMonkey]

MMA’s who compete in tournaments tend to be first and foremost athletes. They train their bodies hard and often times that is what they do for a living. Many of these guys are huge to begin with so they’ve got a lot going for them already since even an untrained guy who is built like a tank is still, well, built like a tank!

The average TMA’s practices in his or her spare time, for a variety of reasons. This type of practitioner may be in great shape but still can’t compete on the level of a professional. Hell, I workout for a couple of hours everyday but I still wouldn’t want to take on an NFL linebacker in a back alley, whether he was an MA-er or not.

So what about the MMA guy who is small and wiry and still whoops butt? It’s still about the training. As it’s been pointed out many many times by a variety of people, you are going to respond to a situation as you are conditioned to respond. If you have an “anything goes” mentality drilled into your brain, then you are going to have an edge over someone who continually things, “block, then strike” or any number of combinations. In a real fight your brain is going to go back to basics and often times complex combos are too advanced for your primitive “fighting” mind to draw upon under stress.

TMA’s can still work well on the street if the training is good. Here is what you need to train to improve your chances of surviving a street altercation (in order):
1. A good mindset. Are you willing to put in the time and take the hurt that comes along with gaining real skill and ability?
2. A good teacher. Do you have someone who knows the game and is willing to let you in on the rules?
3. A good style. This is probably the least important because a good student and a good teacher produce good results, regardless of style.

Also, I’d like to point out that many traditional Chinese martial arts do more than just strike. My school works a lot on ground work along with the strikes and chi na. Do we acquire the same ground skills as a BJJ-er? Probably not, but a street altercation is not a tournament match either. The bottom line is that if you feel that you are lacking in some skill area, then fill in those gaps. Some styles lack certain skills but all too often people jump to studying a different style because they don’t want to put the time into learning what their own style has to offer because it’s not “the best.” Remember that studying a style that is “the best” at something (punching, kicking, ground work) is not going to make YOU the best at it. Mixing up your arts can be a good thing, but you don’t always have to do so to be well-rounded and competent.

[SevenStar]

good post.