Yip Man's Teaching Method

[Zhang Yong Chun]

Does anyone have any first-hand knowledge of how Yip Man taught his classes?

Probably not. That generation of martial artists are all near or in their sixties now and almost never post to Western internet message boards.

But it would be interesting to see what people know about how Yip Man taught the art.

97% of the Wing Chun we know about descends from him, but legend has it that he rarely taught much of anything in public and let the senior students run most of his classes.

In the days before seminars, videos, martial arts magazines, and martial arts publishing companies, how did our teachers or teachers' teachers learn from Grandmaster Yip Man?

[Ultimatewingchun]

"but legend has it that he rarely taught much of anything in public and let the senior students run most of his classes."


***THAT'S NOT A LEGEND...that's a fact! ;)

[Liddel]

For the most part its been passed to me that it was a natural progression in the classes that older students would become Assitants to further be able to pass the art on.

Once you had a good command of fighting and VT theory you need the necessary experience in teaching to become a good sifu, hence letting senior students run the class, to get that experience of 'how' to teach it.

Thats why there is such a difference out there with VT sifus, because not all of those students that perhaps got to a proficient level actually had the 'learning how to teach' experience under guidence from thier sifu.

This is something thats lost alittle nowadays, learning how to teach VT.

Essentially it was very similar to asking the Sifu anyway, if the assistant didnt know hed ask the sifu and then he would (hopefully) pass it on to the student.

GM Ip kept VT close to his Heart, My sifu asked him questions all the time, and often in public he'd just smile and tell you in a more private setting, or discussed it with him in a low voice and showed him actions under the table, so protective !

This was something that was passed on to his students to, My sifu told me Lok Yui used to lock the wooden dummy at his school so know one could use it when he wasnt there, they kept it very close to thier hearts ;)

[Vajramusti]

Of course I was not there- but years ago I was also curious as to how he taught.
So I asked a fair amount of people who knew him the same type of question- how did he teach?
I pass it on not as fact but as considered opinion- some comclusions...
1. like many he apparently evolved as a teacher- from his Fatshan days, to getting the first wave in HK- including Leung Sheung, lok Yiu, WSL, WC,TST started. then turning over much of
public teaching to senior students and concentrating om the more lucrative private teaching- after all it was his living after he lost his wealth.
2.With aging and health problems he also slowed down on his teaching.

3.In the public teaching he would occasionally correct an error leaving other students
to "teach".
4.He did not do much chi sao with the average public student.
5.His systematic teaching was to private tuition paying students. Some of those were with him for a short amount of time. A handful stayed the course for a long period of time.
Of course there are lots of self serving stories about who studied how, what and for how long. And less than true stories can be repeated many times to reinforce appearances. There is a Pandora's box in all this- serves no good purpose to try to pry open. Many first generation students are gone, ill, retired and/or certainly not active on the net. And many wont say much and let some barkers bark.
6. Given 1-5-different people got different things from him- no cookie cutting
mass production.
7. In any field of achievement- there are students who have devoted time to learning, some have been short termers, some A studnets, some Bs, somecs, Ds and Fs- with varying notes on what happened ina single class leave alone a while program.
8.best to polish and share and develop what has come down to us and thank those including Ip man who developed this great art. Its not the only way but it is a pretty good way.

joy chaudhuri

[Ultimatewingchun]

My God...Joy finally made a post I completely agree with!!!

I think all of his points about Yip Man's teaching methods are correct.

In retrospect, however...I think we would have all been better off if he taught everyone the same way - and the same things - whether he was in public or in private.

Look at Brazilian jiu jitsu, for example.

Everyone learned the same system in an open atmosphere - and today you have literally thousands of people who are highly skilled in the art.

In wing chun...as Wong Shun Leung has been known to have said:

"Wing Chun is a great horse but few can ride it"...

I think there are a number of reasons for that (ie.- the complexity of a "seemingly" simple art)...but one of the biggest reasons imo is the fact that Yip Man's teaching method was not open and not uniform.

All that said: I'm glad we had him around !!! :cool:

[sihing]

My God...Joy finally made a post I completely agree with!!!

I think all of his points about Yip Man's teaching methods are correct.

In retrospect, however...I think we would have all been better off if he taught everyone the same way - and the same things - whether he was in public or in private.

Look at Brazilian jiu jitsu, for example.

Everyone learned the same system in an open atmosphere - and today you have literally thousands of people who are highly skilled in the art.

In wing chun...as Wong Shun Leung has been known to have said:

"Wing Chun is a great horse but few can ride it"...

I think there are a number of reasons for that (ie.- the complexity of a "seemingly" simple art)...but one of the biggest reasons imo is the fact that Yip Man's teaching method was not open and not uniform.

All that said: I'm glad we had him around !!! :cool:

I think because of it not being taught uniformly, we have what we have today, argurments between where our the tan sau should be type stuffs.

I think as a instructor one should be there to guide the students, but on the other hand you want the students to pick things up for themselves also and to not always look at you the instructor as the one with all the answers. For me, I talk to much sometimes in class and give it all away.:D My experience doing this has told me that most do not pick it up even when you do spill the beans, so there is alot of repeating needed for them to get the point, except for the fast ones, and they only need one time...or a good DVD..;)

James

[Shaolin Fist]

I think because of it not being taught uniformly, we have what we have today, argurments between where our the tan sau should be type stuffs.


:confused: ...............Maybe and a Big Maybe at that, the real reason his students has arguments about where the Tan Sau should be is because YM never knew himself !

Tan Sau is just a basic tool and if one cant explain how to use it and what positions it can be effectively used in a 2hour beginners class then time to have a quiet word with your Sifu about a refund ;)

[anerlich]

AS an MA YM by all accounts was pretty peerless. He produced some great students, but reading between the lines, this was in spite of rather than because of his teaching methods.

Better than Mark Kerr's training methods (per Smashing Machine):

1. Get addicted to painkillers (and more PE drugs most likely)
2. Crazy alcoholic fiancee

(No I have not tried this myself)

[Liddel]

Better than Mark Kerr's training methods (per Smashing Machine):

1. Get addicted to painkillers (and more PE drugs most likely)
2. Crazy alcoholic fiancee

(No I have not tried this myself)

Anerlich - have you seen the Pride match between Kerr and a kickboxer (he wore kickboxing trunks) where kerr does the shoot and the opponent gives elbow after elbow to kerrs head and kneck while holding the ropes ?

The guy keeps giving the elbows even after a warning from the ref which only serves to pi$$ Kerr off who throws him down and puts the boot in a few times, in a painkiller agro skitz out.

Its most entertaining :rolleyes:

[tjwingchun]

From the discussions and questions I have heard Yip Chun have and reply to, and from all the articles over the years that I have read, I have my own thoughts on the 'Yip Man's teaching' debate.

I get the feeling that he did not like the fact that he HAD to teach to live, coming from a wealthy background and a very strict traditional upbringing where Wing Chun was only for the priviliged, having to teach openly to all and sundry did not lie too well with him.

There are some very well known students of Yip Man who he did not particularily like, but because they were wealthy and he needed the cash he tolerated them, others he did not trust so taught differently and those that were close to him he gave specific knowledge to that related to their needs at that time.

Apparently most students of Yip Man did not stay in continual training with him for more than 2-3 years before going off on their own lifes pathway, in classes if a student came up to him saying "Sifu, Sifu is this right?" he would dismiss them with a "yes" without even considering the question, does this mean his 'teaching' was wrong, well as a qualified science teacher I can say that the methods would not have allowed me to get my Post Graduate Certificate in Education, but his 'teachings', meaning what he actually taught people cannot be in doubt.

I have heard many claim they were the top student of Yip Man, but just because you were in his presence does not give you his talents, a fool will remain a fool even after the best attention of an exceptional teacher.

My instructor Sifu Samuel Kwok has over the years talked to many of the old students of Yip Man as well as both the sons, Yip Chun and Yip Ching, to try to distill the 'teachings' of Yip Man, I have gone down another route to justify the way I teach Wing Chun, I have looked into personal body mechanics and realistic fighting concepts, so if you wish to ask him about the different Yip Man methods visit his website http://www.kwokwingchun.demon.co.uk and contact him I am sure he would give you his opinions.

My final thoughts are that Yip Man was the last Great Grandmaster of Wing Chun and it will be many years before the politics and prejudice will allow another, whatever the questions asked about his methods nobody can deny the impact that he has had on the world of martial arts, from this one person in the 50's & 60's Wing Chun has spread throughout the globe his legacy, excellence.

As we follow in his footsteps we can only hope to make a few positive additions to the scheme of things as the impact he created is immense. As a man he had the humility to refused the title of Grandmaster when alive but now in memory we cannot deny his undisputable title of YIP MAN, GREAT GRANDMASTER OF WING CHUN.

[Cobra Commander]

"but legend has it that he rarely taught much of anything in public and let the senior students run most of his classes."


***THAT'S NOT A LEGEND...that's a fact! ;)


Was that a good way of teaching? Or did a lot of junior students get confused and struggled longer to grasp the principles and applications?

[Vajramusti]

tjwingchun sez:
My instructor Sifu Samuel Kwok has over the years talked to many of the old students of Yip Man as well as both the sons, Yip Chun and Yip Ching, to try to distill the 'teachings' of Yip Man,

((Kwok seems to be a good sifu and the Ip brothers have followings of their own.
Apparently however, were not really into their father's art as kids. They stayed behind in Fatshan when Ip man came to macao and HK. They dint come to HK when Ip Man was pretty well through with much of his active teaching.))



Cobra Commander asks:


Was that a good way of teaching?

((IMO of course-Depends on what criteria are used. Those who paid tuition for some time and were in good standing apparently got goodies that they could develop. Short termers got less.
And may name droppers got very little.
Old time Chinese masters were not teaching American style (kung fu) 101 etc to registered students at a public institute. This is not just in wing chun---look at taiji,
some styles of southern mantis.... most tachi students do not have the foggiest idea of the martial applications and implications of their art. Check out the silly southern mantis debates about who got the goods and who didnt. Rhetorical-
Look at the wing chun writings...how many sifus really pass on the art?)))

joy chaudhuri

[Liddel]

Was that a good way of teaching? Or did a lot of junior students get confused and struggled longer to grasp the principles and applications?

Why is it that we think it was so different back then to now ?

There were students that couldnt wait to be taught the next level, in fact some were never taught because they couldnt wait, so they just looked and copied.

Some just paid GM Ip for Kung Fu - and learnt in a small amount of time.
Do you really think these individuals have a good command of VT.

Given we have less time these days to learn kung fu - but its difficult to find someone thats didicated, willing to try hard and commit for a large part of thier life to learn an entire art. Without even going into the COST. $$$$$

We have people looking to make money from teaching, get famous perhaps, increase thier ego...

Why do you assume it wasnt the case back then...and lay blame towards his teaching methods.

This was probably worse for GM IP because he was famous - he probably couldnt go to dinner without someone saying 'ohh your Gm Ip Man, can you teach my son Kung Fu ?' when the son doesnt even want to learn but the parents push them to learn from a MASTER :rolleyes: Quite popular in chinesse culture.

Im not advocating his methods were perfect, but IMO hes not to blame for the VT dancers out there.

My Sifu told me of an occasion when he found Gm IP crying one day. He asked him what was wrong and Ip Man said that no one was listening to him - they were sending a group of students to a competition and others had chosen the fighters with no regard for what Gm IP wanted. He was loosing influence and control because of other peoples agendas. :o

All this talk just frustrates me - im off to hit a bag or something. :mad:

[tjwingchun]

Sigung Yip Chun has always said that though he was taught Siu Lim Tao when he was 7 years old he had no real interest when he was young and only took Wing Chun seriously again when he was around 33 years old after following his career, but prior to that he was present in his fathers apartment when many of the private lessons were going on and he picked up much by observation, and in the latter years his father had changing views on certain aspects of the forms, but this is all moot, all we can assess are the principles and concepts that are put infront of us today, and we have to be able to justify those as instructors with sound arguments, theoretical as well as practical, not just passing the buck with the old chestnut "GM Yip Man said so!"

As we ALL develop in time and as we ALL have different experiences and outlooks on life, we ALL can have something to offer, it is up to the student to make informed choices about the direction they take in life.

So not just those who trained with GM Yip Man have valuable knowledge, there is also much outside WC, some say look to the source, I say look at the purity and clarity.

I look to the past with respect and guidance, and to the future with hope and for direction.

And to Liddel I will say, that though "All this talk just frustrates me - im off to hit a bag or something.":mad: " is how you feel, if we are talking at least we are not fighting, that tends to come after the diplomacy has failed, lol.;)

[Cobra Commander]

Why is it that we think it was so different back then to now ?

There were students that couldnt wait to be taught the next level, in fact some were never taught because they couldnt wait, so they just looked and copied.

Some just paid GM Ip for Kung Fu - and learnt in a small amount of time.
Do you really think these individuals have a good command of VT.

Given we have less time these days to learn kung fu - but its difficult to find someone thats didicated, willing to try hard and commit for a large part of thier life to learn an entire art. Without even going into the COST. $$$$$

We have people looking to make money from teaching, get famous perhaps, increase thier ego...

Why do you assume it wasnt the case back then...and lay blame towards his teaching methods.

This was probably worse for GM IP because he was famous - he probably couldnt go to dinner without someone saying 'ohh your Gm Ip Man, can you teach my son Kung Fu ?' when the son doesnt even want to learn but the parents push them to learn from a MASTER :rolleyes: Quite popular in chinesse culture.

Im not advocating his methods were perfect, but IMO hes not to blame for the VT dancers out there.

My Sifu told me of an occasion when he found Gm IP crying one day. He asked him what was wrong and Ip Man said that no one was listening to him - they were sending a group of students to a competition and others had chosen the fighters with no regard for what Gm IP wanted. He was loosing influence and control because of other peoples agendas. :o

All this talk just frustrates me - im off to hit a bag or something. :mad:


Yeah we live in a fastfood society where everything we want we want it quickly and right away. Even I have to overcome this mentality somedays.

I find it to be very hard train 5 days a week in class over here in North America. I wonder if they still focus 8 hour/5-6 days a week in martial arts training in other parts of the world.

I know for a fact over here in North America, a lot of us are juggling with rent, school, mortgage, depts, tuition, etc etc so it makes it hard to put the mind 100% behind Wing Chun class. We are so rushed to get results over in our Western society that we sometimes forget that Wing Chun existed in a time and place before Western society even existed, where patience and day to day applications were the main key to success.

[Vajramusti]

etc etc so it makes it hard to put the mind 100% behind Wing Chun class.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
((Answer from who grew up in Cobra country. Depends on priorities. Am a very busy person but I make time for wing chun- made time daily for 30 years withouta break.
But- I dont watch, Desperate housewives, American Idol, Paula Zahn, Presidential broadcasts, dont eat at Mc Donalds and not pusuing a Mercedes, hardly use credit cards...though struggle with passing up first class lunches and suffering fools.
Solving wing chun puzzles...angles, lines, energy flows, timings, combinations, footwork- keeps the art fascinating. One makes time for one's love, me thinks.))

joy chaudhuri

[Zhang Yong Chun]

Yeah we live in a fastfood society where everything we want we want it quickly and right away. Even I have to overcome this mentality somedays.

I find it to be very hard train 5 days a week in class over here in North America. I wonder if they still focus 8 hour/5-6 days a week in martial arts training in other parts of the world.

I know for a fact over here in North America, a lot of us are juggling with rent, school, mortgage, depts, tuition, etc etc so it makes it hard to put the mind 100% behind Wing Chun class. We are so rushed to get results over in our Western society that we sometimes forget that Wing Chun existed in a time and place before Western society even existed, where patience and day to day applications were the main key to success.

It's funny, but the entire world is hurtling towards a post-industrial, disposable goods economy where none of us have time for much of anything but to buy more things that will help us...buy more things. In the major cities of China, everyone is so busy working that few committ themselves to disciplined, progressive training in a martial art.

Most young people, in fact, are trying to learn English and develop skills that will translate to money and jobs, quite like the American model.

The days when you can selflessly devote yourself to a ten hour day practice of your chosen art form are rapidly closing. There are too many distractions and too many demands on the modern man.

[Liddel]

One makes time for one's love, me thinks.))

Im with Joy on this one.

We seemed to have strayed from the point a little IMO.

The point of my post was to say that 'the students' that 'didnt' dedicate themselves as much as others, the ones that may have paid for kung fu (not learnt) the ones that were all about anything but being good at Kung Fu and fighting.....

Seem to be the students, that make individuals question Gm Ip's teaching methods, where as i see the reasons / blame laying with those individuals and not with Gm Ips teaching methods.

Also these students IMO, put thier own stamp on VT (which is fine !) but sell it as Ip Mans VT (which is not fine, nor fair).

At the end of the day - im not like some out there that want to blame Gm Ip for "this and that" i appreciate that im able to learn VT Kung Fu from my Sifu who lucky for me didnt think the same way as Gm Ip and taught a NON chinesse. :)