Real Tai Chi?

[mantid1]

I have heard so many coments about "Real Tai Chi" and was just wondering if anyone could give me a definition of real tai chi.

It seems everyone thinks that they have the real deal. What is it? Just doing the form? Push hands exercises? Free style push hands? Do you ever teach punching and kicking drills up to speed like Mainstream kung fu styles?

If you never drill the techniqes up to speed how will you apply them in a real self defense situation?

Most of what I teach is the form and some basic push hands drills. Many of the people who do it are older and do not care about the fighting anyway. To be honest, they have a hard time just with the form.

I had one young man who wanted to learn to fight with the tai chi. So I broke it down just as I do my kung fu style into drills using punches, kicks, two person drills, push hands drills and throws. After about a year I threw him into the san shou class to fight. He did very well against the kung fu students. Was it Tai Chi or just san shou? Not sure. His movement was a little different than the others but at least he did fight.

Has anyone ever been abe to see CC Chen's daughter or other students fight san shou? Did it look like just another san shou fight or did they display thier style by the techniques they used? Just wondering. They are the only school I know of the does that type of fighting.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


Has anyone ever been abe to see CC Chen's daughter or other students fight san shou? Did it look like just another san shou fight or did they display thier style by the techniques they used? Just wondering. They are the only school I know of the does that type of fighting.I have seen both Tiffany and Max fight and i've trained with WCC Chen.. Tiffany, moreso than Max, has elements of Taiji in her approach to fighting.. but, at combat speed Taiji is difficult to discern by the untrained eye.. Max is quick and smart (and his arms are unnaturally long).. it is in the training environment that you see the development of Taiji skill into true combat skill..

Be well..

[Ray Pina]

Been focusing on Taiji. All I can say is that it's teaching me to coordinate my body better .... get power all the way from the foot and ankle up through the knee, into the waist, hips, shoulder, elbow, wrist, fingers.

Now I see why you train it slow, so you can feel each part. I train it like I train everything else, walk back and forth focusing on getting a good drive off the leg, hanging time, feel the connections. I learned not to tense the arm, that it won't increase the mass only slow it down. So I go back and forth doing pong (sp?).

My master hasn't taught me the form, just breaks out sections, shows me the idea, the power, and how to train it. Then we train it.

As for fighting, I add everything I learn into my fighting and take it with me. What part is taiji, what part is Hsing-I, Ba Gua. It's hard to say from looking on the outside. But when I'm using rib and a certain ****ing power in the clinch, I learned that from Hsing-I. When I use wave punching, hitting from relaxation, I learned that from Taiji.

Doesn't matter what it is or how it looks to someone else. When you beat them, then you have the right to say what it is.

[neilhytholt]

My master hasn't taught me the form, just breaks out sections, shows me the idea, the power, and how to train it. Then we train it.


That school you go to sounds like a really good school.

[Ray Pina]

I'm definitely happy with it. It fits my personality and I know I'm becoming a better martial artists, and person, as the days go by. The next few months are going to be big for me, with some big fights I want to participate it. But then again, I guess any fight you commit to is big:)

[bamboo_ leaf]

(What is it?)

the ability to understand and demonstrate what empty and full mean how open and close work. These are things that can be used martially but are not martial in themselves.

If one is seeking the end result seeks to make it into something they feel works its called missing by an inch is just as much as a thousand miles. Unless one is very clear its quite hard and requires a good teacher or guide to help you find taiji in yourself.

[bamboo_ leaf]

ah but it does matter. Read some historical accounts of the yang family before saying this, or some of the other taiji masters, from other taiji family styles.

They were very careful to show that what they did was very different from what everyone else was doing at the time. Had they used the same things that others used only with more speed and strength no one would really have thought much of it

[RiceWine]

If you can be a bad ass with it then it would be the real deal. =)

[DarinHamel]

You can practice the individual moves as two person practice if you looking for drills. There are eight basic hand techniques and five basic stepping methods. I suppose "real" tai chi are those 13 basic forms.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

There are very few people alive that i consider sufficiently authoritative as to define "real Taiji".. and, i haven't seen any of them post here..

I don't think Taiji is confined by descriptions and words.. i think it is revealed through practice and guidance by someone who demonstrates many of the characteristics described in the "Classics"... Sometimes, i think that even a good teacher may not "have it", but is capable of guiding others "to it"...

It is a teacher's best effort to empower their students beyond the teacher's level..

I know how Taiji has been revealed to me, and i believe it is real.. but, i have seen it revealed to others differently, and it was still real.. we know its authenticity when we cross-hands.. there are few, if any, that can express observably "real" Taiji through forms..

Taiji can be expressed through the way one lives their life.. but it is like a tire uninflated.. the life lived in Taiji fashion would be observably impressive.. except for its functionality.. then, when appropriate conditions are available, the one living the Taiji life might cross hands with another for sport, or play, or.. real.. Then, we see how much air the tire can hold, we can tell if it's functional.. Then, at its highest potential, even the crossing of hands is unavailable because the Taiji player neutralized the problem before it got that far.. "real Taiji".. wins the battle before it's fought..

So, how do we tell? We experience it, and, somehow we just "know".. we can deceive ourselves with so many opinions of others, but.. within each of us, when we feel it and experience it, we "know" it....

Be well..

[DarinHamel]

Amen to TaiChiBobs post.

[neilhytholt]

Greetings..

There are very few people alive that i consider sufficiently authoritative as to define "real Taiji".. and, i haven't seen any of them post here..

...

So, how do we tell? We experience it, and, somehow we just "know".. we can deceive ourselves with so many opinions of others, but.. within each of us, when we feel it and experience it, we "know" it....

Be well..

So many words, so little demonstration, so few concrete names of who these real teachers are.

[Scott R. Brown]

So many words, so little demonstration, so few concrete names of who these real teachers are.

I have a nice idea!! If you would like to know something, how about trying a little courtesy? Have you ever tried asking?

I heard it works pretty well! You are more likely to get your question answered and you won't look like such a D!CKHEAD!!

[Blacktiger]

Oh brother dont even bother

[neilhytholt]

I have a nice idea!! If you would like to know something, how about trying a little courtesy? Have you ever tried asking?

I heard it works pretty well! You are more likely to get your question answered and you won't look like such a D!CKHEAD!!

Honestly, I've already searched for the teachers, and IMHO there is nothing to taiji except for long fist and some push-hands.

Best teachers at last count:

Marin's teacher in China. Chen Yu. Marin's page : http://www.taijigongfu.com/
Gin Soon : http://www.gstaichi.org/
Chen Xiaowang: http://www.worldchentaichi.com/Chen%20Xiaowang.htm
Dan Docherty: http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/
Yang Jun: http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/

All of these people are just human and none have ever shown any fighting ability greater than or equal to the MMA folks.

[Scott R. Brown]

Honestly, I've already searched for the teachers, and IMHO there is nothing to taiji except for long fist and some push-hands.

Best teachers at last count:

Marin's teacher in China. Chen Yu. Marin's page : http://www.taijigongfu.com/
Gin Soon : http://www.gstaichi.org/
Chen Xiaowang: http://www.worldchentaichi.com/Chen%20Xiaowang.htm
Dan Docherty: http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/
Yang Jun: http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/

All of these people are just human and none have ever shown any fighting ability greater than or equal to the MMA folks.

Hi neilhytholt,

These comments are well said! I appreciate your opinion. Of course many would disagree.

Certainly many people have fantasy ideas about Tai Chi, but this also occurs within other MA as well, including MMA. Many MMA consider it the be all and end all of MA. It isn’t!! It applies itself to a fixed context. Any MA that applies itself to a fixed context will be found to be deficient at times when applied to real world encounters. This is because the real world has innumerable, unpredictable contexts that occur.

I have a good friend who is at a grand-master skill level in IPSKA, an international combat shooting organization. He has been in the military, is presently in law enforcement, has written and had published numerous combat shooting articles in gun magazines and has taught gun tactics and safety. He is good at what he does. Put him in a specific context or an environment conducive to his skills and he will blow 15 holes in any MMAist before the MMAist could get close enough to harm him. Combat shooting is his context. Change the context to favor a MMA and my friend will get his head caved in. If 3 guys hide in the bushes or in a dark room with swords and jump a MMAist the context is within their favor and the MMA will have his skills challenged to their limits just to survive.

Life occurs according to varying contexts. Humans find personal fulfillment in pursuing activities that have value to them within the contexts they prefer. Most Tai Chi practitioners do not train to be heroes in the octagon! Their purposes and motivations are generally different than those who prefer a more hard and physical venue to display and test their skills. This does not make their pursuit of less value, only of different value.

Keep in mind that those who compete, train to win! Within this context, for most, they either win or lose. Those who train to defend themselves, train to survive! If they survive, they win! Surviving within this context does not require the defeat of an opponent as it does within the context of a MMA bout. It only requires maintaining ones safety. The purpose and contexts of the two perspectives are different and cannot be reasonably contrasted in a negative manner. It is comparing apples to oranges.

Some individuals, like Ray Pina, try to combine Tai Chi principles within their MMA experience and seem to find value and success within their experience. There is a real world martial application to Tai Chi and there are historical references to its successful usage. The fact an individual cannot find any value from their own perspective does not necessitate its non-existence.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


So many words, so little demonstration, so few concrete names of who these real teachers are.And, the same can be said of this quote.. words!! Where is "neilhytholt", who are you.. what are your credentials.. where is your demonstration?

Real teachers i have trained with: W.C.C.Chen; Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming; Wei Lun Huang; Li En Jiu; David Chin; and others... Demonstrations? Available upon request..

Honestly, I've already searched for the teachers, and IMHO there is nothing to taiji except for long fist and some push-hands.Honestly, have you, really? I doubt that you have made any real inquiries, made any real journies.. if you haven't crossed hands with the teachers i have named your search is flawed. Maturity and perseverance are useful virtues.

Be well..

[dleungnyc]

Honestly, I've already searched for the teachers, and IMHO there is nothing to taiji except for long fist and some push-hands.

Best teachers at last count:

Marin's teacher in China. Chen Yu. Marin's page : http://www.taijigongfu.com/
Gin Soon : http://www.gstaichi.org/
Chen Xiaowang: http://www.worldchentaichi.com/Chen%20Xiaowang.htm
Dan Docherty: http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/
Yang Jun: http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/

All of these people are just human and none have ever shown any fighting ability greater than or equal to the MMA folks.


I know what you are saying, trust me, my view on Tai Chi in the past was pretty low, that is, until I met my current teacher.

From my limited experience, 'real' Tai Chi is very difficult to be 'seen', it has to be 'experience', 'feel'. Until my current teacher 'demonstrated' on me, I didn't believe it either.

And to compare any practioners in any MA to folks in MMA is like comparing apples to oranges. I will just use myself as an example, IF I am involve in a situation that requires my martial arts training. The opening shot from me will be going for the eyes, throat or groin(Not saying I will be successful), failing that, my next target would be the knees and ankles and looking for ways step on/kick to break them. I doubt many MMA folks spends much time training to protect those areas, since its against the rules that they are training for to strike those areas (eyes, throat and groin).

[neilhytholt]

Yeah, I don't have any credentials. I am a loser. But I'm not claiming to be anything great or have anything great.

It's just that I studied CMA for a couple of years. Thought that I was bad-ass because I studied the claw the eyes, break the neck, etc. Then I got myself all beat up by boxers!!!

Anyway, my point kindof isn't that taiji sucks or anything, just that if you aren't testing your skills, you probably don't have any.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Neil: Same story.. i got schooled by a USMC boxer about 25 years ago.. he took my best kick to the torso without even flinching.. boxers condition their torsos well.. (a lesson i haven't forgotten)..

About 17 years ago i was introduced to Taiji as a way to recover from a slipped disc (L4-5 of all places).. for the first five years i believed the hype, then was schooled again by Muay Thai.. since then, i have been diligent in my pursuit of Taiji excellence (not that i'm there, just diligent)..

Don't be too quick to judge, there are quite a few out there that test Taiji regularly and with gusto.. I test Taiji and myself as often as i can.. WCC Chen's students are very well trained and capable Taiji fighters.. David Chin's student Chris Heintzman is a regular Cage winner with great Taiji skills.. There's a lot more going on than most people are aware of..

Be well..

[yangyang]

Yeah, I don't have any credentials. I am a loser. But I'm not claiming to be anything great or have anything great.

It's just that I studied CMA for a couple of years. Thought that I was bad-ass because I studied the claw the eyes, break the neck, etc. Then I got myself all beat up by boxers!!!

Anyway, my point kindof isn't that taiji sucks or anything, just that if you aren't testing your skills, you probably don't have any.

At least my teacher made it on your list. LOL. Seriously though, I think you have a good point. A lot of tai chi people today NEVER test what they are learning outside of their own students. I think it's good for your personal developement to test your skills from time to time. No need to be afraid of losing, because losing is what teaches you.:)

[neilhytholt]

Greetings..

Neil: Same story.. i got schooled by a USMC boxer about 25 years ago.. he took my best kick to the torso without even flinching.. boxers condition their torsos well.. (a lesson i haven't forgotten)..

About 17 years ago i was introduced to Taiji as a way to recover from a slipped disc (L4-5 of all places).. for the first five years i believed the hype, then was schooled again by Muay Thai.. since then, i have been diligent in my pursuit of Taiji excellence (not that i'm there, just diligent)..

Don't be too quick to judge, there are quite a few out there that test Taiji regularly and with gusto.. I test Taiji and myself as often as i can.. WCC Chen's students are very well trained and capable Taiji fighters.. David Chin's student Chris Heintzman is a regular Cage winner with great Taiji skills.. There's a lot more going on than most people are aware of..

Be well..

See, finally some names. Thank you very much!

[imperialtaichi]

Neil: Same story.. i got schooled by a USMC boxer about 25 years ago.. he took my best kick to the torso without even flinching.. boxers condition their torsos well.. (a lesson i haven't forgotten)..



That's the thing. I know that because I am smaller built, there is just NO WAY I can win in a fight by trading punches with a boxer/Muay Thai/bigger person. Plus I don't want to train myself by damaging my body (kicking coconuts is not perticularly good for my legs). I had street fights when I was a teenager because I was "angry". My right knuckles are permantly disfigured from the hard stuff I trained before.

Tai Chi had given me a totally new set of skills to deal with these difficult opponents, without further damage to the body.

I know a good teacher is hard to find, because all these flower-child-hippies are turning it into some esoteric play thing and ruining the name. When every Tom D!ck and Harry is teaching Tai Chi, the real skillful guys just get lost in the market. The real Tai Chi is a very useful tool in many ways. If you look into it, you will find it in the most unusual place.

Cheers,
John

[Scott R. Brown]

Yeah, I don't have any credentials. I am a loser. But I'm not claiming to be anything great or have anything great.

It's just that I studied CMA for a couple of years. Thought that I was bad-ass because I studied the claw the eyes, break the neck, etc. Then I got myself all beat up by boxers!!!

Anyway, my point kind of isn't that taiji sucks or anything, just that if you aren't testing your skills, you probably don't have any.

Hi neilhytholt,

You are not a loser. It seems that you are disillusioned and discouraged, there is a difference! That fact that you were schooled by boxers is a gift, not a curse! You learned relatively early that you were living the MA fantasy! Many schools make their money off this fantasy and encourage it. Many schools do not train students for real life encounters because they train within a different context than “REAL” streetfighters train. Punching and kicking the air is not real fighting and neither is most MA sparring. Boxers train to actually hit people and withstand being hit. They know how to give and take “REAL” punishment because they train for it. They continually condition their bodies to withstand the punishment of being hit. If an individual wishes to learn to “ACTUALLY” defend themselves then they must train to do so and not live within the MA fantasy!

We all get discouraged sometimes. Now is the time to take a look at your personal goals and find the training you really desire. This means if you want to “REALLY” fight you are going to have to go where “REAL” fighters train. You will have to actually get hit in your training, get your joints twisted and your body tossed around a bit. You will take “REAL” punishment and this will toughen you up for “REAL” life encounters. Training needs to be as true to life as possible while maintaining your relative safety. There is no better way to prepare oneself for a “REAL” fight.

This does not mean that MA training is useless. But it is important to understand the context within which one is training. As I said earlier, even MMA can be easily defeated by changing the context beyond their abilities. This is the law of combat that has ensured victory for thousands of years. This is also one of the reasons Alexander the Great was Great! He changed the context of his battle strategy to methods beyond the experience, understanding and ability of his foes. His foes could not adapt to his unanticipated tactics and they were easily defeated. This same principle applies to individual combat.

You were living the MA fantasy! Now you are free from the bondage of your illusion and can choose to live the MA reality. Now you can look for instruction that provides you with practical skills, but it may take some time to find the type of instructor you desire. You are not the first person to learn this discouraging lesson so you are not alone. My brother-in-law learned this painful lesson in a harsher manner. His best friend trained in the MA for some 15-20 years and was a former Special Forces soldier with combat experience. He was shot and was killed by a person with a .25 cal hand gun and absolutely “NO” MA training. His assailant was a woman who was smart enough to change the context of their encounter to her advantage even though she couldn’t fight her way out of a paper bag. He is dead and she has life in jail. My brother-in-law never trained again because his years of emotional investment in the MA fantasy was destroyed in an instant and he could not resolve the reality with his fantasy, that is, MA training OF ANY KIND does not make one invincible. No matter how well trained you are, you will never be faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound! Bullets, hammers to the head, motor vehicles and brutal street thugs CAN AND WILL KILL YOU no matter how skilled you think you are!

That is life!

[neilhytholt]

Hi neilhytholt,

You are not a loser. It seems that you are disillusioned and discouraged, there is a difference! That fact that you were schooled by boxers is a gift, not a curse! You learned relatively early that you were living the MA fantasy! Many schools make their money off this fantasy and encourage it. Many schools do not train students for real life encounters because they train within a different context than “REAL” streetfighters train. ...

This event of my getting beat down by boxers happened almost 20 years ago now. I'm not very worried about it.

I'm not disillusioned and discouraged (well, yes a little bit, at all the CMA teachers who are teaching fancy panced wushu these days). And, the fact that every teacher requires me to take their version of their forms, which is a complete and utter waste of time.


We all get discouraged sometimes. Now is the time to take a look at your personal goals and find the training you really desire. This means if you want to “REALLY” fight you are going to have to go where “REAL” fighters train. You will have to actually get hit in your training, get your joints twisted and your body tossed around a bit. You will take “REAL” punishment and this will toughen you up for “REAL” life encounters. Training needs to be as true to life as possible while maintaining your relative safety. There is no better way to prepare oneself for a “REAL” fight

This does not mean that MA training is useless.

Been there, done that. Never said I thought MA training was useless. IMHO most martial arts training isn't very useful especially that which just focuses on forms.



You were living the MA fantasy! Now you are free from the bondage of your illusion and can choose to live the MA reality. Now you can look for instruction that provides you with practical skills, but it may take some time to find the type of instructor you desire.

I can't seem to find the kind of instructor who (a) teaches hardcore combat applications and (b) teaches them in a way that is relatively safe (meaning with control) and (c) is easy to deal with and doesn't have an attitude.

You know of one, please let me know.

But honestly, I'm kindof over that. Every instructor wants you to do things their way, and I'm a bit tired of that control thing. In fact, I'm pretty much over studying with teachers since they're all pretty much annoying IMHO. Haven't met one (other than my first teacher) that isn't highly opinionated, and just lets you be, or doesn't play weird political games. IMHO politics in CMA is one of the worst things. I don't want to waste my time and $$$ on that anymore.

Honestly I haven't found a teacher better than my 1st teacher. He's retired now, but he was nice, he was genuinely excited by martial arts, he didn't charge us a ton, he let us do our own thing if we wanted to (you want to focus on nunchuka? great! You want to do staff? Great! You want to do forms this week? Great! You want to beat up each other with sticks today? Great!) It's almost impossible to find a teacher like that these days.

Anyways, teachers only can do so much. I don't really expect very much of teachers anymore.



You are not the first person to learn this discouraging lesson so you are not alone. My brother-in-law learned this painful lesson in a harsher manner. His best friend trained in the MA for some 15-20 years and was a former Special Forces soldier with combat experience. He was shot and was killed by a person with a .25 cal hand gun and absolutely “NO” MA training. His assailant was a woman who was smart enough to change the context of their encounter to her advantage even though she couldn’t fight her way out of a paper bag. He is dead and she has life in jail. My brother-in-law never trained again because his years of emotional investment in the MA fantasy was destroyed in an instant and he could not resolve the reality with his fantasy, that is, MA training OF ANY KIND does not make one invincible.

Yeah, you shouldn't train to be 'invincible'. MA training is for personal self defense, IMHO, and you shouldn't spend too much time on it since you're likely to die of other causes anyway.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi neilhytholt,

I cannot disagree with any of your comments.

One of the worst things about MAs are the prevailing attitudes of the instructors and students. Unfortunately serious MA training for real life combat is not a field that attracts large numbers of nice people. Many instructors (and students) are inherently insecure people with the need to feel powerful and important. When training in a serious manner you want to be confident your partner does not have some psychological need to dominate EVERYONE in a manner that makes your training with them dangerous. I have had partners like this and trained in schools that did not properly supervise these types of individuals. Not only that, they wouldn’t let me correct the technique or make comments to my partner that would reduce the likelihood of me being injured. Needless to say I did not continue at that school.

I am with you on the basic structure of classes too. At some point people know what it s that they want to learn and there is a lot of wasted time playing the political game of the school or instructor.

Why not try a boxing gym? I love boxing training. I am training my boys now and it is primarily boxing, modified aikido and basic grappling skills.

Remember, not everyone trains to be a badass. Some people just enjoy the exercise and pretending to be Shaolin monks or faux-samurai! I only really train now because I like the exercise. I find most schools tedious so I no longer attend although I will most likely return to Tai Chi classes in the next 5 years or so just because I enjoy it.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

While i largely agree with the sentiments regarding Taiji fighting skills and the lack of qualified instructors in that aspect of Taiji, i am also compelled to take a broader perspective of Taiji. It has come to the point that so many people are so narrowly focused on "Taiji fighting" that we risk losing so many other real benefits of the art. Not to mention that i take exception to the following prejudicial and discriminatory remark:

I know a good teacher is hard to find, because all these flower-child-hippies are turning it into some esoteric play thing and ruining the name.I can assure you that i know several "hippies" that can hand 90% of MA fighters their butts on a platter.. I am an old Hippie and it is BS to assume that it is the "hippie-types" ruining Taiji. It is a broad range of unfocused MA socialites that want to be seen as Martial Artists, not just "hippies"..

It is unfortunate that all aspects of Taiji can't coexist for the benefit of the Art as a whole. Self-defense is foundational to Taiji but there are many more benefits, too.. superior health enhancing qualities, advanced meditative skills, beneficial philosophical perspectives and general flexibility improvements just to name a few.. In the same manner that we fear losing the fighting aspects, we could lose other valuable benefits by too narrowly focusing on any single aspect of the art. Fighting is supported by enhanced health derived from Taiji practice, it is supported by enhanced awarenesses derived from Taiji's meditative skills, Taiji's fighting skills are judicially used according to wisdoms gained by philosophical insights, and those fighting skills are improved with the greater degrees of flexibility from Taiji training... But, there is an elitist attitude that suggests that if someone isn't training to be a hardcore fighter, their Taiji is deficient.

Like the field of medicine, Taiji has its specialties.. fighting, meditation, health, philosophy.. and, the "general practitioner"... While someone's interest may be limited to fighting, it is also appropriate to acknowledge the contributions of other "specialists" to the general advancement of the Art. One of Taiji's major attractions is its well-rounded curriculum, it has something for everyone. If it were just another Fighting System it would be lost in the crowd. The fighter may well benefit from a health advocate's insights, or a meditator's awareness enhancing insights, etc... Taiji's suburban popularity exposes so many more people to its benefits and its self-defense potential that we may gain martial interest from unlikely sources, people that had no idea they could develop such capabilities..

In the Central Florida area we are blessed with a good Taiji community.. there are several good schools and independent teachers.. many are skilled healers, advanced meditation teachers, Yoga or dance instructors... and most are at least aware of, or hands-on involved with real self-defense skills, too.. We have a local club that meets monthly for dinner, activities and regularly scheduled "push-meets".. this club is not exclusive to anyones Taiji perspective or lineage and, we have seen great benefits from all perspectives.. we have over 100 members (30 or so that are regularly active).. we have several world-class teachers of fighting skills and a very active CMA/MA/MMA community... Very little conflict between schools/styles and a great interactive learning environment..

It has been my experience that the Arts advance through cooperation not exclusion or prejudice and discrimination... not everyone trains to be the next world champion, nor should they.. at some level, i think MA should hope that its necessity as self-defense would fade away in favor of an evolved and harmonious society.. but, until then, train well and be prepared..

Be well..

[qiphlow]

to taichibob and scott r. brown:
thanks, gentlemen, for being (once again) the voice of reason!

[unkokusai]

I can assure you that i know several "hippies" that can hand 90% of MA fighters their butts on a platter.. .


How did you come up with that %? And wouldn't "Hippy" imply someone uninterested in learning the combat applications anyway?

[yangyang]

Very well said Bob. That's the best answer to the fighting question that I have ever read. Must be all that Florida sunshine that maintains sanity.:D

[neilhytholt]

Very well said Bob. That's the best answer to the fighting question that I have ever read. Must be all that Florida sunshine that maintains sanity.:D

Taiji is a fighting martial art.

It is not a health dance. 90%+ of the teachers DO NOT fight with tai chi. If you start calling around tai chi places, 90+% of them teach health dance, not martial art.

Good grief, get with it, people. Bob is basically advocating wushu for non-fighting.



superior health enhancing qualities, advanced meditative skills, beneficial philosophical perspectives and general flexibility improvements just to name a few..

Why not just do Hatha Yoga, Bob?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

unkokusai:

How did you come up with that %? And wouldn't "Hippy" imply someone uninterested in learning the combat applications anyway?The % is based on personal experience.. and, you don't know too much about hippies :) ..
This "Hippie" and many like me are prepared for whatever happens, we simply choose to keep our potentials hidden until needed.. I favor the quote, "better to a warrior in the garden, than a gardener in the war".. noting that "better" is in the garden, not waging war (i refuse to comment on the characteristics of my garden) ;) .. Be prepared, not eager...

Be well..

PS: Humble thanks for the support <bows>...

[neilhytholt]

Greetings..

unkokusai:
The % is based on personal experience.. and, you don't know too much about hippies :) ..
This "Hippie" and many like me are prepared for whatever happens, we simply choose to keep our potentials hidden until needed.. I favor the quote, "better to a warrior in the garden, than a gardener in the war".. noting that "better" is in the garden, not waging war (i refuse to comment on the characteristics of my garden) ;) .. Be prepared, not eager...

Be well..

PS: Humble thanks for the support <bows>...

This is basically the reason I do not study tai chi. Is because all the teachers I run into are like this guy.

Why, oh, why are the fighting taiji teachers so few or far between?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

neilhytholt: tsk, tsk, Neil.. drag your happy butt down here, and see how the Yoga, Wushu advocates play... Knowledge is born of experience, Neil.. looks like you could use the "experience" to improve your knowledge.. runnin' your mouth to people you don't even know indicates a lack of knowledge, knowledge of potential consequence.. i assure you that i am a big advocate of Taiji combat arts.. and, i would be all too happy to offer you a free class or two.. i am not so narrowly focused that i come off sounding, well, like you.. abrasive, contentious smug, and.. oh yeah, full of it.... Lighten-up, you're gonna burn out at this rate.. or, someone will burn you down..

Be well...

[neilhytholt]

Greetings..

neilhytholt: tsk, tsk, Neil.. drag your happy butt down here, and see how the Yoga, Wushu advocates play... Knowledge is born of experience, Neil.. looks like you could use the "experience" to improve your knowledge.. runnin' your mouth to people you don't even know indicates a lack of knowledge, knowledge of potential consequence.. i assure you that i am a big advocate of Taiji combat arts.. and, i would be all too happy to offer you a free class or two.. i am not so narrowly focused that i come off sounding, well, like you.. abrasive, contentious smug, and.. oh yeah, full of it.... Lighten-up, you're gonna burn out at this rate.. or, someone will burn you down..

Be well...

Thanks for the offer. You're equally egotistical, just not as abrasive. But all this hippies taiji IMHO is just sickening. The Communists don't run the USA. You don't have to pretend to be doing dancing.

I went through the main taiji forms again, and IMHo they are inferior to basic long-fist. They don't have all the applications of basic long-fist.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


I went through the main taiji forms again, and IMHo they are inferior to basic long-fist. They don't have all the applications of basic long-fist.That, Neil, indicates your lack of experience and knowledge of combat..

Thanks for the offer. You're equally egotistical, just not as abrasive. But all this hippies taiji IMHO is just sickening. The Communists don't run the USA. You don't have to pretend to be doing dancing.Communists? WTF? I don't "pretend" to do anything... i do it, or don't.. my history is verifiable, Neil, you're barking up the wrong tree.

And, if you're getting sick, try the "morning after pill", it suits your condition...

Be well.....

[neilhytholt]

Greetings..

That, Neil, indicates your lack of experience and knowledge of combat..
Communists? WTF? I don't "pretend" to do anything... i do it, or don't.. my history is verifiable, Neil, you're barking up the wrong tree.

And, if you're getting sick, try the "morning after pill", it suits your condition...

Be well.....

No, seriously, modern taiji doesn't have all the moves, kicks, flips, everything that longfist does. It was designed that way so that the Imperial palace people in robes could fight with it. It is also well documented that YLC didn't want to teach the Manchus his fighting art, so he watered it down as well.

I mean, take the Yang long form. It's so redundant you can shorten it down without losing anything.

As for the Chen lineages, that's probably closer to real fighting, but those are even more rare than the Yang people.

But call me ignorant or whatever. :)

[unkokusai]

Greetings..

unkokusai:
The % is based on personal experience.. and, you don't know too much about hippies
This "Hippie" and many like me are prepared for whatever happens, we simply choose to keep our potentials hidden until needed.. I favor the quote, "better to a warrior in the garden, than a gardener in the war".. noting that "better" is in the garden, not waging war (i refuse to comment on the characteristics of my garden) ;) .. Be prepared, not eager......:rolleyes:


So, do you mean that these 'Hippies' (according to your revised definition of the term) can beat 90% of the MA fighters you know or that all of your super-hippies can beat 90% of the MA fighters in the world? :confused:

[neilhytholt]

IMHO that hippie, baby boomer generation was terrible and pitifully weak compared to the one before. Look what they're doing with the country now that they're in office. It's a total disaster.

But just wait until the next one (ours) comes into power. Then you better hope you're dead or off the planet, because there will be a total meltdown.

[imperialtaichi]

I can assure you that i know several "hippies" that can hand 90% of MA fighters their butts on a platter.. I am an old Hippie and it is BS to assume that it is the "hippie-types" ruining Taiji. It is a broad range of unfocused MA socialites that want to be seen as Martial Artists, not just "hippies"..



Well said Bob. Of course when I said "hippies" I don't mean you.... :p

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi neilhytholt,

The following quote is from lkfdmc’s Chan Tai San thread. It is post #147.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34317&page=4&highlight=chan+tai+shan


Reviewing the thread, I noticed a question about Chan Tai san and Xing Yi people....

He knew quite a lot, he got around obviously, but the best story in relation to Chan Tai San and Xing Yi is this one...

For the overseas community, Toisan county prints a sort of yearly almanac of things that happened "back home"... How or why Sifu Chan got a hold of an old copy from 1954 I have no idea, but into the school he walks one day with it...

He shows us the section on sports and physical culture... there is the 1954 Canton Province free sparring championship results...

We note that our si-bak (older uncle) Lei Fei San was #2 and Chan Tai San was #3... so we ask who number 1 was and what happened....

Sifu Chan got stopped by number 1, who then fought Lei Fei San in the finals and also beat him. The fact the guy beat BOTH Chan Tai San and Lei Fei San made us darn curious... what style did he do?

Xing Yi, Sifu Chan said....

Well, how did he fight? We of course wanted to know...

Sifu didn't get into much detail, he said the guy told them (both him and Lei Fei san) that he only did 12 techniques EVER, just drilled the same ones over and over....

Sifu Chan then said, basically, whatever he did, I can tell you one thing, he hit HARD....

You will note that Xing Yi practitioner only trained 12 techniques EVER! The founder of Aikido Morihei Ueshiba taught it is better to know a few techniques well.

You don’t really know much about the MA, especially Tai Chi. We can all see Tai Chi doesn’t meet up with your expectations and the tone of your recent posts leads one to conclude you are merely a troll seeking attention. Who cares if Tai Chi practitioners can fight or not. It is up to the students and instructors to train according to THEIR goals not YOUR goals. If they want to fight they will, if they want to exercise that is fine for them too. Since you want to learn real fighting Tai Chi try applying yourself to learning it first and then applying it to fighting and I don’t mean training for a few years. Dedicate yourself to it for 10 years or so and then you may have the experience to properly evaluate what you have learned. If it takes too long for you to get to the “good stuff” the problem may be your attitude not the ART. You are certainly showing us how bad your attitude is. I wouldn’t train a person with your bad attitude. Try changing your attitude and ask questions appropriately. Go to train with TaiChiBob; he offered you some free instruction. All you want to do is complain and insult others without actually making an effort! No wonder you can’t find what you are looking for, you aren’t doing anything productive to find it. If you can’t find an instructor that teaches what you want to learn, that is a problem of your own creation. Your poor attitude is most likely your hindrance. If you attitude is this poor on the boards I wonder what type of poor attitude you project in person. Others seem to be able to find what they are looking for, but in the entire universe you are the only one who is refused what they want? As long as you perceive your glass as half empty you doom yourself to a life of disappointment.

[neilhytholt]

You are certainly showing us how bad your attitude is. I wouldn’t train a person with your bad attitude. Try changing your attitude and ask questions appropriately. Go to train with TaiChiBob; he offered you some free instruction. All you want to do is complain and insult others without actually making an effort! No wonder you can’t find what you are looking for, you aren’t doing anything productive to find it. If you can’t find an instructor that teaches what you want to learn, that is a problem of your own creation. Your poor attitude is most likely your hindrance. If you attitude is this poor on the boards I wonder what type of poor attitude you project in person. Others seem to be able to find what they are looking for, but in the entire universe you are the only one who is refused what they want? As long as you perceive your glass as half empty you doom yourself to a life of disappointment.

I'm not really looking for a fighting tai chi instructor. I am looking for one, meaning, I am looking for evidence of one.

You seem to think I'm trolling when I say that IMHO that tai chi is nothing but long fist + push-hands.

I don't idly say this. Since another poster on here pointed out that long-fist, especially Plum-Flower Fist which is considered long-fist, has push-hand techniques, I did some research. I also found this article here.

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/chenboxingmanuals.html

I also found other articles that say that 'tai chi' as it was called, wasn't called that prior to the mid 1850s. I have footage of the so-called '13 form', the supposed original form, and it looks nothing like what Chen is passing on.

Even if you believe the stories of Zhang San Feng creating tai chi, and somehow after 600 years or something it passed to the Chen village (and where is the evidence of this? I haven't found anything solid at all), it is said he took -- what style before? Shaolin.

So I don't idly say that it IMHO it is just long-fist + push-hands. You might think it is trolling, but it is not trolling.

[B-Rad]

I don't idly say this. Since another poster on here pointed out that long-fist, especially Plum-Flower Fist which is considered long-fist, has push-hand techniques, I did some research.

If you're refering to what we were talking before (I'm the poster formerly known as "Brad") I meant that plum flower fist used silk reeling, not push hands. Of course they might do that too... wouldn't be the first non taiji style to have some kind of pushands training, but I'm not sure.

[B-Rad]

I have footage of the so-called '13 form', the supposed original form, and it looks nothing like what Chen is passing on.
There's lots of "original 13 for Zhang San Feng taiji quan" forms out there ;)

[chud]

This is basically the reason I do not study tai chi. Is because all the teachers I run into are like this guy.

Why, oh, why are the fighting taiji teachers so few or far between?

It is true that there are not a lot, at least not in comparison to the number who do it as dance or health exercise, but there are martial Tai Chi guys out there. Go to Taiji Legacy and check it out sometime. Or ask around on here and find someone reputable in your area. They're out there. I had to go through two bad teachers before I got to a good one, but I did find it.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi neilhytholt,


I'm not really looking for a fighting tai chi instructor. I am looking for one, meaning, I am looking for evidence of one.

TaiChiBob offered you some free lessons. Take him up on it and let us know what you think!


You seem to think I'm trolling when I say that IMHO that tai chi is nothing but long fist + push-hands.

First let me apologize! I try not to make firm statements when assessing another person’s motivations since on a BB it is difficult to make these accurate. I should have said it “APPEARS” you “MAY” be trolling, and not implied you “ARE” a troll. Maybe you are, maybe you aren’t, but it is beginning to appear so. The reason I come to this conclusion is because of your approach to the subject is inherently negative.

If desired to locate a “REAL” fighting Tai Chi person this is how I would approach it myself:

Hi everyone,

I am interested in finding and training with a Tai Chi practitioner who applies Tai Chi to real life fighting. If you do this or know of anyone who does this please contact me!

This is a friendly, open invitation designed to demonstrate true interest in a non-offensive manner. It invites response without insulting anyone or Tai Chi. There is no complaining or whining in the request. This form of request will be received better and reflects better on your character because it is ASKING and not TELLING!



I don't idly say this. Since another poster on here pointed out that long-fist, especially Plum-Flower Fist which is considered long-fist, has push-hand techniques…

I also found other articles that say that 'tai chi' as it was called, wasn't called that prior to the mid 1850s. I have footage of the so-called '13 form', the supposed original form, and it looks nothing like what Chen is passing on.

So what! Everything comes from something! Nothing comes from nothing! There are only so many ways to hit, kick, move, joint lock and throw. Some one at some point in history took what he knew and changed it to fit his perspective and needs. That is how all MA were created! You are concerning yourself with minutia that, while interesting from an intellectual perspective, is inherently unimportant when someone is trying to stick you with a knife! If it works, it works! If it doesn’t, it doesn’t! Maybe it didn’t work because you have inadequate skill or maybe because the style is inadequate, or maybe both.



Even if you believe the stories of Zhang San Feng creating tai chi, and somehow after 600 years or something it passed to the Chen village (and where is the evidence of this? I haven't found anything solid at all), it is said he took -- what style before? Shaolin.

Again, interesting historically, but still minutia!


So I don't idly say that it IMHO it is just long-fist + push-hands. You might think it is trolling, but it is not trolling.

It is your constant negative attitude that makes it appear you MAY be trolling. If you are sincerely interested in your quest:

1) Behave a bit more courteously.
2) NICLEY ask for help in your search.
3) Quit insulting those who offer you assistance in your search.
4) Take up TaiChiBob’s offer and then get back to us with a fair and honest assessment of what you find!

[neilhytholt]

TaiChiBob offered you some free lessons. Take him up on it and let us know what you think!

Dude, I'm 3000 miles away from Florida. I'm not going to go to Florida for some taiji instructor.

I've already visited several taiji instructors, and like I said before, they're just human.

They have showed me some applications, pushed me around, one threw me around, and I thought that was somehow 'special' until I ran into a hung-gar instructor who did the same things and explained to me not only how to do it, but had me doing it myself in about 15 minutes. Something they said would take years.

So I'm sorry if that's a 'negative attitude', but that's been what I've found.

Like I've already said, if I'm getting on a plane it's to go see Wong Kiew Kit.

Edit...

Furthermore, who are you guys to try to dictate my attitude? Have I attacked you? Have I said you suck? Have I said you have no skill? Have I said all taiji instructors suck and have no skill?

I advocated an opinion that I thought taiji was push-hands + longfist. And then you attack me, personally.

I said I thought Bob was advocating wushu and that taiji was a fighting art. And that doing taiji as dance was sickening, etc. But I didn't attack you.

You are attacking me, saying I have a bad attitude, etc.

Therefore, you guys should learn some wude, as it were. You think you know it all?

Anyways he said he doesn't bother with boards anymore because he thinks people have too big of egos.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi neilhytholt,

So your search is only important to you as long as it doesn't inconveniance you?

[neilhytholt]

Hi neilhytholt,

So your search is only important to you as long as it doesn't inconveniance you?

Well I have 2 kids to feed + very little spare time.

I have already done a LOT of research on taiji. IMHO it's a waste of time to travel just for some taiji teacher who may or may not be good.

Edit. So anyways the answer to your question is I don't want to be inconvenienced. Why would I want to be? What's the point?


You know, the problem here I think is that you have a different view on martial arts training, and taiji, which is like you have to kow-tow to the teacher or something and it is something that has to be earned over a long time, etc. etc. etc.

Well, I've found there are 2 basic types of teachers of martial arts. There are those that are informal, and teach you right away and there those that are formal and make you wait a long time. There are some that are formal and teach you right away, but those are rarer.

The formal ones that make you wait a long time talk about wude, etc. etc. Most of them that I've run into don't have the goods, which is why they use formal and wude to make you wait a long time. Because they want to suck $$$ out of you as long as they can or keep their position as long as they can over you.

Those types of teachers are NOT worth wasting one's time with, IMHO.

When I hear these stories of these people wasting 10 years or more and learning nothing but basic form and push-hands with a few applications, it's just so sad, so sad.

So I'm sorry if you think I have a bad attitude, but that's just what I've come across. It's not 250 years ago anymore where you have to wait to get something, where the teacher has to hold back because it's a family secret or something. If they're not teaching you the martial art and showing you applications, etc., they probably don't know it and are probably trying to string you along for all the $$$ you're worth.

I've run into too many teachers like this, so IMHO teachers who talk about wude are guilty until proven innocent.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


I've already visited several taiji instructors, and like I said before, they're just human. "several taiji instructors"? do you really believe that you can form such generalized opinions from "several" instructors?

IMHO that hippie, baby boomer generation was terrible and pitifully weak compared to the one before. Look what they're doing with the country now that they're in office. It's a total disaster.Again, broad generalizations.. it's not the "hippies" in power, it's the Ivy League jocks.. those dandy neo-conservative religious self-righteous right-wingers.. no self-respecting "hippie" gets caught-up in that mess.. "pitifully weak "? it's easy to start a war, just ask GWB.. but to stop one, it took "hippies" and the power of "the people" (Vietnam 1975).. and, just for the record, i did my time '69-'70.. although i disagreed with the war and the ploicy, when i was drafted i didn't run.. freedom has a price, even if you don't like the cashier.. i served on the principle of this great Nation, not for its misguided leadership..

Be well...

[neilhytholt]

Greetings..

"several taiji instructors"? do you really believe that you can form such generalized opinions from "several" instructors?
Again, broad generalizations.. it's not the "hippies" in power, it's the Ivy League jocks.. those dandy neo-conservative religious self-righteous right-wingers.. no self-respecting "hippie" gets caught-up in that mess.. "pitifully weak "? it's easy to start a war, just ask GWB.. but to stop one, it took "hippies" and the power of "the people" (Vietnam 1975).. and, just for the record, i did my time '69-'70.. although i disagreed with the war and the ploicy, when i was drafted i didn't run.. freedom has a price, even if you don't like the cashier.. i served on the principle of this great Nation, not for its misguided leadership..

Be well...

"IMHO that hippie, baby boomer generation was terrible and pitifully weak compared to the one before."

The set of baby boomers would include the so-called 'ivy league' people that are in office now, would it not?

Anyways, I'm done with this conversation.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


The set of baby boomers would include the so-called 'ivy league' people that are in office now, would it not?Thank you for leaving out the Hippies in that last generalization..

Be well...

[B-Rad]

Originally Posted by neilhytholt
You seem to think I'm trolling when I say that IMHO that tai chi is nothing but long fist + push-hands.
Well, you did argue the exact opposite a month ago... pretty much said you were going to end the conversation when it was suggested taiji could be considered a type of longfist. I'm sure it's just a case of you changing your mind (it happens) but you did seem to start going off about how taiji is just longfist + pushhands pretty soon after acting like it was a stupid idea and making a coment about how much the taiji people would disagree. Defenitely makes it look like you're just trolling the taiji boards, though I suppose you could just be the type of person who flip flops opinions on a whim whenever you come across a new bit of info.


I have already done a LOT of research on taiji. IMHO it's a waste of time to travel just for some taiji teacher who may or may not be good.
No you haven't :p Reading some online articles and visiting a few locals isn't a lot of research... at least compared to what some of the people you're arguing with have gone through. For most people to really do research on taiji they HAVE to travel. If you can't, well, that's just too bad. Find something else that interests you and stop wasting time looking for something which you wouldn't have the means to find even if it does exist.

[chud]

]I have already done a LOT of research on taiji. IMHO it's a waste of time to travel just for some taiji teacher who may or may not be good.


No you haven't :p Reading some online articles and visiting a few locals isn't a lot of research... at least compared to what some of the people you're arguing with have gone through. For most people to really do research on taiji they HAVE to travel.

Yep, that's me. I drive an hour and a half each way to train with my Sifu, because I feel that he's the best option. He teaches the form AND explains the applications as well. I could train locally and save myself a lot of time, but I want the best so I travel. Some things are worth it.

[neilhytholt]

Well, you did argue the exact opposite a month ago... pretty much said you were going to end the conversation when it was suggested taiji could be considered a type of longfist. I'm sure it's just a case of you changing your mind (it happens) but you did seem to start going off about how taiji is just longfist + pushhands pretty soon after acting like it was a stupid idea and making a coment about how much the taiji people would disagree. Defenitely makes it look like you're just trolling the taiji boards, though I suppose you could just be the type of person who flip flops opinions on a whim whenever you come across a new bit of info.


No you haven't :p Reading some online articles and visiting a few locals isn't a lot of research... at least compared to what some of the people you're arguing with have gone through. For most people to really do research on taiji they HAVE to travel. If you can't, well, that's just too bad. Find something else that interests you and stop wasting time looking for something which you wouldn't have the means to find even if it does exist.

Okay, I said I wouldn't talk about this anymore. But yes, I did think taiji was different until you pointed it out and I did more research into the form, Ziranmen, Mei Hua Chuan, Northern Mantis, Taiji Mantis, etc. Can a person change their mind? Guess not according to you.

In addition, I'm understating the # of taiji places. Several is where they actual do fighting. I've been to taiji places in Boston, Connecticut, New York, California, Oregon, Chicago, and Colorado.

If you want my REAL, unadulterated, not being nice, opinion, it is this: 99.999% of people who take taiji can't fight their way out of paper bags.

99.999% of people who take taiji (or more) are old people doing it for 'health benefit' or new age Lao Tzu wannabes. I get laughed at almost everywhere if I ask if they do tai chi fighting.

If you look at the schools where they actually do applications which is probably fewer than 1% of the places out there, most of them suck because they don't do full contact sparring.

Edit ...

You know, you guys have got to stop attacking the argumenter. That is known as a logical fallacy.

If you attack me, I'll attack back. Of course, I don't have much to attack because I don't even know you. But you somehow seem to know a lot about me, and insinuate a lot of things.

But taiji places that do actual fighting + sparring very rare compared to the places that do it as some sort of dance. Very rare, indeed.

If you look at karate places most all of them have students who can do some sparring. If you look at taiji places it's like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Therefore, (now I'll attack you). It's no wonder you're so defensive.

Anyway, I'm done. If you want to mis-state my position, challenge me for changing my mind, call me stupid, whatever, I'm done with the conversation.

[tjqg]

Everybody think the Tai Chi he is teaching is the real Tai chi, and that's fine, anyway, Tai Chi has been evolving all the time.

But we might tell if a Tai Chi has evolved too much from authentic Tai chi.

What's the essence of Tai Chi?

the Tai Chi classic said: Open and Close, that's all about Tai Chi.

the Tai Chi classic said: Open and Close, Empty and Solid, they are the essence of Tai Chi.

Some people don't understand Open and Close and misunderstand Empty and Solid, their Tai chi is real for sure, but not necessarily authentic.

[greendragon]

Neil... I have the opposite opinion, and not just because I am an old hippie. Most Karate practitioners I have seen cannot fight. They throw slow high kicks barely keeping their balance, They are stiff and become confused when they are beat down. Tai Chi however has some great fighters, like Peter Ralston. When I mention Tai Chi I am not talking about the many geriatric health exercise classes.
What exactly is your objective or motivation in learning martial arts ?

[tjqg]

Neil... I have the opposite opinion, and not just because I am an old hippie. Most Karate practitioners I have seen cannot fight. They throw slow high kicks barely keeping their balance, They are stiff and become confused when they are beat down. Tai Chi however has some great fighters, like Peter Ralston. When I mention Tai Chi I am not talking about the many geriatric health exercise classes.
What exactly is your objective or motivation in learning martial arts ?


I know some great Tai Chi fighters too, but they studied other martial arts before they studied Tai Chi.
I never saw a person who can fight a boxer after yang style tai chi training.
with chen style training, you may good at Fali or pushing hand, but you still can't fight a boxer.

[unkokusai]

I dunno dude, I have met some Chen Taijiquan folks who handle themselves pretty well!

[yangyang]

Like I've already said, if I'm getting on a plane it's to go see Wong Kiew Kit.



Dude if you think Wong has got the TCC goods, you better think again. From what I read, he never even had a tai chi teacher, and taught himself application from a book. Wong is a kung fu guy, not really a TCC guy.

[yangyang]

I know some great Tai Chi fighters too, but they studied other martial arts before they studied Tai Chi.
I never saw a person who can fight a boxer after yang style tai chi training.
with chen style training, you may good at Fali or pushing hand, but you still can't fight a boxer.

I have to disagree with you there. The problem is that if you stand up and trade punches with a boxer, you're going to get hit, and hit hard! A good TCC man doesn't do that, he wouldn't stand in a boxers stance and trade punches with a boxer, or even try to wrestle with a wrestler. I fooled around with a boxer some and I came in close, closed the gap, and once I had contact with his body, it became a different game.

[neilhytholt]

Dude if you think Wong has got the TCC goods, you better think again. From what I read, he never even had a tai chi teacher, and taught himself application from a book. Wong is a kung fu guy, not really a TCC guy.

I never said I thought he was a TCC guy. Just that if I get on a plane to go study with somebody it will be WKK. IMHO TCC is nothing special worth wasting time over.

[yangyang]

I never said I thought he was a TCC guy. Just that if I get on a plane to go study with somebody it will be WKK. IMHO TCC is nothing special worth wasting time over.


Ok, my mistake.

I'm sorry you have had such a bad experience in TCC. To tell you the truth, your experience is nothing new. I know more than a few who have wasted many years and got nowhere. I think a lot of the problem is that there is just too many **** people teaching TCC that are not qualified to teach it. Too many people who have never had any martial training, but only theory. It's a very sad state of affairs today, this is why you see a lot of so-called TC people cross-training with other arts. I agree that TC isn't just about fighting, and has many other attributes worth studying for, but the martial side certainly seems to be more history than anything present. It's time for the real teachers to step up and expose their skills, and I mean in different formats - not just with other TC people. Furthermore, these teachers should open up and stop hiding everything. Secrets in this day and age is nonsense. It's hard enough do to this stuff even when someone shows it to you, so hiding and keeping parts of the art secret is just silly. I think TCC can still be turned back into a martial art if enough qualified people start teaching that way. May take a while though......

[neilhytholt]

Ok, my mistake.

I'm sorry you have had such a bad experience in TCC. To tell you the truth, your experience is nothing new.

I haven't wasted a lot of time with TCC. I have gone to a LOT of places, I have found a handful of places that do fighting. When analyzing the TCC fighting applications IMHO there is nothing there that isn't in longfist.

Therefore, I don't get what the big deal about TCC is. IMHO TCC is nothing but longfist + push-hands.

It is possible that I'm mistaken, so if anybody knows of great combat style teachers, please let me know. People keep reading a lot of stuff into the posts. I don't understand where they get this stuff.

[qiphlow]

ok, i have to weigh in here...
taijiquan has both health and self-defense benefits. if one wants to train taijjiquan for health, then one should focus on doing forms, add some qigong, maybe some standing meditation. if one wants to learn self defense, then one should look for the applications to the postures in the forms and practice those with a partner, practice some push hands, and also spar from time to time. if one wants to learn to fight for sport, then one should look for a gym that trains this type of fighting.
for me, i started training taijiquan just for something to do besides eat psychedelics--i had no idea what to expect. i found i liked it, and still do to this day. i also found that the self defense aspects were not always so easy to uncover, but they do exist. i am quite confident that i could defend myself if i had to. luckily i haven't had to do that.
i really doubt that any of the people that i train with got into taiji to learn how to kick ass, but i don't doubt that we could if necessary.

[svenfeynord]

I want to know who is a real teacher on this site? Seems there are a few people who are serious then they turn out weird. Can anyone direct me to a real teacher on here?