Spear Question

[Judge Pen]

How heavy were traditional spears used in battle during Medieval Chinese history? The spears I see now are made with whippy wax-wood staffs that are very flexible. Is that traditional in the battle field sense or is that a more modern adaptation of the Chinese spear?

[Oso]

without checking my research at home...

the older spears were bigger and heavier and more like lances and used initially from chariots and in phalanx formations.

Gene's probably got the full scoop.

fyi, the '100 weapons' issue is a good buy if you don't have it. Has lots of pics and brief descriptions...a good starting point for deeper research.

[BruceSteveRoy]

I am not sure how heavy they are but i think that the really light whippy ones are contemporary wushu. same with the tin foil... err... i mean wushu (soft) steel swords. to the best of my knowledge the only weapon they didn't lighten is the long pole. but i might be wrong. it was funny in china trying to buy combat (hard) steel weapons. they thought i was crazy and kept trying to sell me japanese weapons.

[Judge Pen]

I am making a new spear and I wanted a sturdier shaft, but the one that I received from Cold Steel is about three pounds of wax-wood. I'm looking at a 4 pound spear total

[The Willow Sword]

You can Use Willow. (hehe my screenname nonwithstanding here) Willow branches can get pretty thick and be quite durable, more so than the waxwood. I Lucked out back in the day and found a real thick peice of waxwood and mounted a spear tip on it( i used real horsehair for the tassle as well).

Peace,,TWS

[Judge Pen]

I already have the waxwood staff. It's very thick and sturdy. No "whip" to it but it still maintains the flexibility upon impact. It's a nice staff; just a bit heavier than normal.

I have white horse-hair for the tassel. The spear-tip was bought from museum replicas (actually a basic Viking spear tip, but it looks the part). I intend to lacquer the staff black with gold inlay and have a nice looking heavy spear. It should be quite the workout to swing it around.

[mantis108]

Like Oso said is a modified lance which is use on Chariots or horseback. The Generals would be able to use the metal spears because of the price of the material isn't cheap at all. Also you can't really wheel that much of weight around while hauling it along on foot the whole day. So foot soldiers would use the wax wood shaft that is relatively more expensive that the rattan shaft. Again it depends on how much money the military has to equipe the troops. Spear contingent became very important because of the extremely effective tactics of General Qi Jiguang's champaign against the Japanese pirates who often used samurai swords. He used the highly mobile battle group formation called the Mandarin Duck formation which uses:

1 color-captain
2 shield men
2 wolf tooth clubs (made with bamboo) men
4 Spear men
2 tiger fork men

Sometime he might use upto 6 spear men. In that case, no tiger fork men would be used. This formation is also modified from another ethnic group's tactic. Speed and mobility is key in the tactic of Gen. Qi. This is why light weight yet sturdy spear is perferred. He realized that one on one closed quarter the samurai sword will cut his foot soldiers into pieces. So he used long weapon such as the spear to stab the subject and use short weaponry (ie the wolf tooth club) to keep the subject at bay and pinning him down so that the spear men can do their job. It's a brilliant tactic.

Back to the wax wood, it's a great material because it's great for training Fajing. as well.

Mantis108

[YMC]

Well, from talking to some collectors and researchers into Chinese/Asian weapons, the concensus is that the majority of spearheads were mounted on hardwoods (oak and the like). I've seen pictures of spearheads with broken shafts remaining in the recepticle that looked to be hardwood. The collectors I've talked to have apparently never seen an antique spearhead with a waxwood rememnets; but this is a limited number of people.... So from what I understand, waxwood was not generally used. That being said, I have heard of a case (although I've never seen the reference myself) were waxwood was used. The wood was wrapped in rattan strips and lacquered.

However, given the relative abundance of waxwood in the more southern regions of China, it wouldn't be out of the realm of reason to assume that it was used.

Mantis 108,

I'm aware of the use of bamboo wolf teeth clubs in the Mandarin Duck formation, but I didn't know that waxwood shafts were used for the spears. Do you happen to remember the source you found that? Always trying to add to my limited knowledge.

[mantis108]

I am not sure of the specific type of wood that he would use for the spear. But he did say that it's important to have a harder type of wood. The spear head should be light weighting less than a tael. The shaft should be tapper with the butt end fatter than the "waist" and the head. The wood should be chopped not sawed.

Regards,

Mantis108

[Oso]

I don' like waxwood...or rattan for staff training.

I've broken two waxwood staves now...too wimpy...one broke because it couldn't handle my fajing. ;)

I understand the fajing part of the training with the flexible staff but staff vs. staff...my ash will disintigrate any waxwood.:cool:


Are than any links to diagrams or pics of the Mandarin Duck Formation? or any other group tactics used by the Chinese Military.

[Judge Pen]

I understand the fajing part of the training with the flexible staff but staff vs. staff...my ash will disintigrate any waxwood.:cool:


You haven't seen my waxwood staff! :mad:

[Oso]

you haven't seen my ash staff. :)

[Crushing Fist]

gentlemen...




it all depends on the size of your shaft







:p

[BruceSteveRoy]

i think oso just really wants judgepen to check out his ash.

[Judge Pen]

I'm not going to carry this implicit analogy any further!

[Oso]

:D


we can have a duel...choose your seconds...weapons have already been chosen.

The father of all weapons shall prevail!

[Judge Pen]

:D


we can have a duel...choose your seconds...weapons have already been chosen.

The father of all weapons shall prevail!

I choose Jim! I feel a hangnail coming on; I don't think that I can continue.

[Oso]

aww, c'mon...I'll even let you use a real spear head.

my second is just a little dude named Doni.

[Judge Pen]

my second is just a little dude named Doni.

Doni Osmond!?! Now I'm really scared! :D

[Oso]

you can ask your second who he is. ;)

[Judge Pen]

you can ask your second who he is. ;)

That doesn't sound good.

[Oso]

naw, he's just this short, kinda bordering on fat, dude...nothing to worry about. relax.



now, I think we should have this someplace dramatic...and neutral...and equidistant...say, Clingman's Dome? We can battle our way up the spiral ramp to the top platform and decide once and for all the greatest weapon in all kung fu history.

[Judge Pen]

Here? http://web.umr.edu/~mstauter/highpoint/cling.jpg

You're bigger and more powerful than me; I prefer open space to move. How about Neyland stadium at midnight next full moon? I bet they would even play rockytop through the stadium speakers.

http://www.utk.edu/new_images/UT_Ecard19.jpg

[Oso]

a stadium showdown would be too 80's.

needs to be old school.

[PangQuan]

you guys should battle your way to the top of this, winner take all.

http://academics.hamilton.edu/biology/smiller/Mt.%20Fuji.jpeg

[GeneChing]

To get back OT, I've not seen any antique examples of waxwood shafts and I don't know how far back its usage goes. That's a great question. I will comment that the quality of waxwood has diminished in recent years. My guess is that it's old growth waxwood versus new growth, the same issue that's plaguing a lot of over-harvested woods nowadays. That, in addition to the trend towards wushu-weight weapons, has significantly lowered the standards for waxwood. Regardless, I've seen some excellent examples of battleworthy waxwood, mostly the older pieces.

A big problem with waxwood is that termites love it. I've seen termites reduce a piece of waxwood to swiss cheese in less than a day. Once a termite gets in, it completely spoils the integrity, obviously. It's a huge problem for vendors. In both this company (http://www.martialartsmart.net/) and my previous company, I've seen entire shipments spoiled by termites. I'm sure this is a factor in trying to find antique pieces, if they even exist. Another factor is that few people today know how to maintain their weapons. Any wood must be oiled an maintained. Most modern practitioners rely solely upon the oils of their hands, which can produce a fine sheen over time, but is little substitute for a decent wood oil.

There's this old tale about how long staffs used to be made from some tropical hanging vines that circulates in southern lore. Allegedly, the master would select athe proper vine, and then dig a ditch under the vine where it reached for the ground. The ditch would be filled with special oils, which the vine would then drink, fortifying the wood to increase its strength and flexibility. It's a lovely myth, but I have yet to find any sort of validity to it.

[PangQuan]

always in between me and my hijacking gene. :mad:

[Oso]

To get back OT, I've not seen any antique examples of waxwood shafts and I don't know how far back its usage goes. That's a great question. I will comment that the quality of waxwood has diminished in recent years. My guess is that it's old growth waxwood versus new growth, the same issue that's plaguing a lot of over-harvested woods nowadays. That, in addition to the trend towards wushu-weight weapons, has significantly lowered the standards for waxwood. Regardless, I've seen some excellent examples of battleworthy waxwood, mostly the older pieces.

A big problem with waxwood is that termites love it. I've seen termites reduce a piece of waxwood to swiss cheese in less than a day. Once a termite gets in, it completely spoils the integrity, obviously. It's a huge problem for vendors. In both this company (http://www.martialartsmart.net/) and my previous company, I've seen entire shipments spoiled by termites. I'm sure this is a factor in trying to find antique pieces, if they even exist. Another factor is that few people today know how to maintain their weapons. Any wood must be oiled an maintained. Most modern practitioners rely solely upon the oils of their hands, which can produce a fine sheen over time, but is little substitute for a decent wood oil.

There's this old tale about how long staffs used to be made from some tropical hanging vines that circulates in southern lore. Allegedly, the master would select athe proper vine, and then dig a ditch under the vine where it reached for the ground. The ditch would be filled with special oils, which the vine would then drink, fortifying the wood to increase its strength and flexibility. It's a lovely myth, but I have yet to find any sort of validity to it.

see what happens when you don't keep your eye on us?

as far as oil goes...almost any natural oil will 'fortify' the wood by keeping it from drying out and getting brittle.

I've got a set of single sticks that were left to soak in mineral oil for a period of time and those things have just one chip in them in almost 10 years time. they were a gift and I can't remember what he said he made them out of...hickory I think.

I don't soak my staves but I do use mineral oil on them every couple of months.

I'd have to say that quality of spear/lance shafts weren't that much of an issue to military troops. They broke, you cut a new one for the next battle and go on.

now, back to what really matters:

ok, JP, whenever we do manage to get this multi state free sparring thing on, we will have to see who's got better long weapon skill.

[Judge Pen]

Thanks for the infor Gene. We were just having fun until you popped up to provide some real information. As for oiling the wood, how would that work if you have laquered the staff?

Back to the challenge match, I'm all up for Mt. Fuji (my wife can be our translator) but since it was PanQuan's idea I think that he should foot the bill. That will be his price of admission.

If not, how about a barge floating down the Tennessee River? I can see one right now that would work. . . .

[PangQuan]

i think the barge idea would be for the best :D

but it would only work if you were fighting in a ring of fire and on broken pieces of glass. you know, to keep it real.

[Judge Pen]

If you wanted to wait until labor day, then we could do it on "Boomsday" the annual mega-fireworks display here in Knoxville. How's that for a ring of fire?

[Oso]

the barge would be sorta Jackie Chan'ish so that would be old school enough.

I would think that once you lacquer the wood then you are done. You are also relying on the wood laquer sealing in the moisture of the wood and I don't think that would hold up long term. oil treating is best for wood weapons you are going to actually use. mineral oil is the same stuff you get for cutting boards and butcher blocks. it soaks in quick and in 24 hours you have a completely dry weapon. ime, the mineral oil treatment improves 'stiction' and grip

[Judge Pen]

the barge would be sorta Jackie Chan'ish so that would be old school enough.

Ok, so how would fighting to the top of a concrete spiral be more old school than the barge?

If you want, we could cover my back yard with bamboo spikes and mayflower posts. THAT would be old school. We just have to take them down when we're done so my dogs still have a place to safely pee.


I would think that once you lacquer the wood then you are done. You are also relying on the wood lacquer sealing in the moisture of the wood and I don't think that would hold up long term. oil treating is best for wood weapons you are going to actually use. mineral oil is the same stuff you get for cutting boards and butcher blocks. it soaks in quick and in 24 hours you have a completely dry weapon. ime, the mineral oil treatment improves 'stiction' and grip

So if I apply a few coats of the mineral oil before I lacquer the wood would that be better than just lacquer alone?

[KC Elbows]

I've never heard the fable Gene mentioned, but I had heard in the past that waxwood is to be soaked in oil for a full year before allowing to dry. No idea if anyone has ever actually done that, but that's what I heard.

Especially if you're going to fight on top of anything, even a barge.

As for oil from your hands, I would think twice before crossing hands with someone whose hand is oily enough to preserve wood. They're likely to have profound ting jing, fa jing... some kind of jing.:eek:

[Judge Pen]

Glad to see you back, KC. I always like reading your posts.

[Oso]

Ok, so how would fighting to the top of a concrete spiral be more old school than the barge?

The concrete spriral clearly alludes to a temple. duh. :rolleyes:

If you want, we could cover my back yard with bamboo spikes and mayflower posts. THAT would be old school. We just have to take them down when we're done so my dogs still have a place to safely pee.



So if I apply a few coats of the mineral oil before I lacquer the wood would that be better than just lacquer alone?

the lacquer won't take once the oil is on it.

why do you wan't laquer anyways? I'm just going to break it no matter how pretty it is.

[Judge Pen]

the lacquer won't take once the oil is on it.

why do you wan't laquer anyways? I'm just going to break it no matter how pretty it is.

My wife likes to make things pretty. :o

[GeneChing]

Oso is spot on about oils. Nice to see someone who knows what they are doing. There are plenty of wood oils on the market and chopping block oil is particularly fine, although I've had the benefits of various nut oils, almond in particular, expouned to me at length. Personally I'm lucky when I have enough time to clean my weapons - I don't have the time to be crushing fresh almonds...

As for lacquer, usually you only lacquer things that aren't expected to be flexible, like jewelry boxes, furniture or armor. If you oil before you lacquer, I imagine that might mess with your lacquer adhesion. But the only things I've laquered have been fences and patio furniture, so I don't really know much about it.

If you fight on a barge in TN, perhaps a garbage barge would be best. It's easier to dump the body that way. Don't forget to mytube it and post it here after.

[Judge Pen]

If you fight on a barge in TN, perhaps a garbage barge would be best. It's easier to dump the body that way. Don't forget to mytube it and post it here after.

That would be evidence. Evidence is bad.

[TenTigers]

This method is the way I was taught: The waxwood staff is first shaved,removing all bumps, then sanded smooth. It is placed in a trough-or nowadays a pvc pipe, which youcan cap at both ends, filled with Tung Oil. It should stay in the oil for several months, rotating it to assure that it soaks in uniformly. After that the staff is much heavier, denser, but with a resiliency of rattan. It will most likely take a stain, but not a laquer. I am not sure about a shellack. There must be some oil-based varnish of some sorts, but for fighting, it was not required. The staff would most likely be too brittle for the type of technique we employ.

[Judge Pen]

Thanks. I think I'll try that method. Instead of lacquer I may just paint it with an oil based paint after trearment and put a clear coat on top of that.

[PangQuan]

sounds like it will be a looker, post a pic in a while when its completed.

[Oso]

Oil is oil, I think as far as what it does for the wood...i.e. keeping it moist and flexible.

Tung oil is good...linseed oil is also good but get the boiled if you decide to go with it because it takes forever for the raw to dry for use.

after fiddling around, I just settled on the mineral oil because it's simpler to use and dries quick and is cheap and it works.

JP, if the waxwood doesn't work out, I still have several 7' x 1" ash staves...they are octagonal which some people don't like but I do. It also wouldn't take much for them to be hand sanded round. If you want something thicker, get in touch with me and I can get it made...can also do hickory which is as hard as ash but not quite as flexible....that's why they make baseball bats out of ash.



Thanks. I think I'll try that method. Instead of lacquer I may just paint it with an oil based paint after trearment and put a clear coat on top of that.

you're still putting a rigid finish on something that you want to flex...it'll crack.

go with an oil stain. mix Minwax Cherry with Minwax Ebony about 50/50 and you get a nice dark red stain. then you can reapply oil with a rag and or restain as it wears.

[Judge Pen]

Oil is oil, I think as far as what it does for the wood...i.e. keeping it moist and flexible.

Tung oil is good...linseed oil is also good but get the boiled if you decide to go with it because it takes forever for the raw to dry for use.

after fiddling around, I just settled on the mineral oil because it's simpler to use and dries quick and is cheap and it works.

JP, if the waxwood doesn't work out, I still have several 7' x 1" ash staves...they are octagonal which some people don't like but I do. It also wouldn't take much for them to be hand sanded round. If you want something thicker, get in touch with me and I can get it made...can also do hickory which is as hard as ash but not quite as flexible....that's why they make baseball bats out of ash.


you're still putting a rigid finish on something that you want to flex...it'll crack.

go with an oil stain. mix Minwax Cherry with Minwax Ebony about 50/50 and you get a nice dark red stain. then you can reapply oil with a rag and or restain as it wears.

Thanks for the tips. I'm going to Lowes today to pick up the PVC and I'll probably look around for the oil too. Oso, does the mineral oil give the wood a darker color too?

The waxwood staff is about as flexible as a baseball bat, so I'm not worried about it cracking too much, but I'm thinking about the staining option first and see how it looks.

[Oso]

Thanks for the tips. I'm going to Lowes today to pick up the PVC and I'll probably look around for the oil too. Oso, does the mineral oil give the wood a darker color too?

The waxwood staff is about as flexible as a baseball bat, so I'm not worried about it cracking too much, but I'm thinking about the staining option first and see how it looks.

Lowes should have the butcher block stain but maybe not in a big size. That's ok.

if you go with the pvc idea, which is a good one, you don't really need to fill the pvc completely up. wood only really absorbs by wicking up from the ends. there is some penetration from the sides but not much. If you dump the 8 or 12 oz bottle of mineral oil in the pipe and keep it stood on end, it will soak it up just fine. if you cap both ends then you can shake or turn it every once in a while to coat the sides enough.

mineral oil will only slighly darken the wood. though, on the waxwood, I don't think you are going to get hardly any penetration or staining on the surface of the wood because of whatever it is that gives the particular tree it's name. (not actually 'wax' I don't think because as far as I know 'wax' is an animal product...could be wrong though)

interesting link:

http://www.georgehernandez.com/h/xMartialArts/Wood.htm

the entire genus Ligustrum

http://www.desert-tropicals.com/Plants/Oleaceae/Ligustrum.html

didn't really find any reference by botanical sources about the use of it in weapon making...but I didn't spend a lot of time on it.

[Judge Pen]

I haven't received the spear head in the mail yet so I'm wondering if I should wait to soak the wood until I can sand down the end to fit into the spear-head. It seems like it would be easier to whittle and sand down when the wood is dry as opposed to after it has soaked up the oil.

[PangQuan]

for sure dude

[GeneChing]

KC Elbows, it's actually a fine blend of hand oil and sweat, plus constant rubbing, that gives old waxwood a nice patina. If you don't think human hands are that oily, you've probably never worked with real sword steel. Two nights ago I was cleaning prints of my sword (it's funny how many peole just need to touch real swords). But back to the hand oil, the best handoil sweat comes from young women that have been fed a steady diet of sesame and olive products. Remember you got to get them rubbing. It's all about the rubbing.

Great links above Oso!

[PangQuan]

the best handoil sweat comes from young women that have been fed a steady diet of sesame and olive products. Remember you got to get them rubbing. It's all about the rubbing.

you sly dog you.

[Judge Pen]

Australian Timber Oil: "A unique blend of oils oringally formulated to protect dense Australian tallowwood, cambara and merbau from extreme exposure. . . . Containing a precise blend of superb-grade linseed oil for maximum penetration, long-oil alkyds for durability and pure Tung oil for color depth and water repellency." It is a Mahogany stain too, but I don't know how much color will take to the waxwood.

I'm going to soak my staff in this stuff for a week or so. Think that's long enough or should I leave it in there longer?

[Oso]

lol, you had to fall for the yuppie marketing, didn't you?

just kidding...it's probably great stuff...possibley over kill with the blend but it'll probably do the trick.

if you just soak one end, you'll know it's done when it's whicked out the other end.

you may need to cut a bit off both ends of the staff to open the pores back up, maybe as much as an inch or too. I don't know how sappy waxwood is to begin with and as it dried, the sap could have plugged the pores....kinda like when you need to cut a couple inches off the bottom of an Xmas tree right before you put it in the stand so it will drink water.

[Crushing Fist]

great thread here



I have a little cherry laurel staff I cut about a year ago and this gives me some ideas about what to do with it.


:D

[Judge Pen]

lol, you had to fall for the yuppie marketing, didn't you?

just kidding...it's probably great stuff...possibley over kill with the blend but it'll probably do the trick.

if you just soak one end, you'll know it's done when it's whicked out the other end.

you may need to cut a bit off both ends of the staff to open the pores back up, maybe as much as an inch or too. I don't know how sappy waxwood is to begin with and as it dried, the sap could have plugged the pores....kinda like when you need to cut a couple inches off the bottom of an Xmas tree right before you put it in the stand so it will drink water.

Well the fact it was a stain and had the linseed oil and the tung oil (two oils recomended here) sold me on it. Plus it came in a gallon so I can soak the staff in the PVC pipe. Then I can report if the oil will go through the waxwood from the sides. This one is a bit of an experiment. I like ordering the staff from where I got it because its a larger diamerter than what you can get from places like martial arts mart, but it only comes in two lengths (4' and 6').

I don't want to cut off too much as it's only 6' as it is (I don't want a quarter staff with a spear head on it) I intended to soak the whole thing in the oil-stain and I was going to sand it down and smooth out the staff first. I'll gring doen on each end and hope that helps with the wicking.

[Oso]

yea, like I said, it's probably good stuff...I just laugh at all the marketing I see in the DIY stores...I worked at one for 4 years in the 80's and I've been in maintenance/facilities management for 10 years now.

Take for instance, the 4 or 5 varieties of the product Goop. There is no difference in the product inside the tube.

anyway.

I'm still not so sure you're going to get that good a penetration unless you do something to the ends...at least sand them w/ some 80.

[Judge Pen]

I'm still not so sure you're going to get that good a penetration unless you do something to the ends...at least sand them w/ some 80.

Yeah, I'll do that. I intend to sand the whole thing down really well before I soak it. How long should I soak the thing? Will a week be long enough? Too long?

[Oso]

hard to say.

you could try this:

mark the level of the oil in the tube. if you keep it capped then evaporation won't be an issue and you can approximate how much oil has been soaked up.

if you wanted to exercise your math skills you could figure the volume of the cylinder that is the staff and if you could get at least 10% of the oil mix soaked in to it I'd say you'd be doing good.

you may want to rotate ends every 48 hours if you don't have complete submersion in the tube... I think every 24 would be too short a duration. Then, figure a minimum of 4 days and then work in multiples of 4 from there.

based on that, I'd say 8 days minimum. :D

[Judge Pen]

hard to say.

you could try this:

mark the level of the oil in the tube. if you keep it capped then evaporation won't be an issue and you can approximate how much oil has been soaked up.

if you wanted to exercise your math skills you could figure the volume of the cylinder that is the staff and if you could get at least 10% of the oil mix soaked in to it I'd say you'd be doing good.

you may want to rotate ends every 48 hours if you don't have complete submersion in the tube... I think every 24 would be too short a duration. Then, figure a minimum of 4 days and then work in multiples of 4 from there.

based on that, I'd say 8 days minimum. :D

Math makes my head hurt. Why do you think I became a lawyer?

I've filled the 4" PVC (6' 3" long) with the oil and the staff. I've capped both ends. The pipe is laying flat in my garage floor. I'll wait 7 to eight days, open the puppy up and see how it looks.

[KC Elbows]

Gene,
Is there any activity that shouldn't involve young women that have been fed a steady diet of sesame and olive products?

JP,

Oso's advice has been spot on, though I'm glad you looked at other products than minwax: minwax is definitely good for the money, it's a good all around product, but for something like a dumpster duel you need to take it to a new level of class.

Oso,

If you keep dogging the hippie products, there'll be no more Dr. Bronner's for you. And then how wll you replace half-true Socialist-fluoride poison & tax-slavery with full-truth, work-speech-press & profitsharing Socialaction?

[Oso]

I shall continue to persecute hippies and hippie products until some hippie is brave enough to stop me. That is my American Dream and I shall live it fully.


:D

[Judge Pen]

I DIDN'T buy a hippe product. I bought an Australian product. :rolleyes: :D

[TenTigers]

I believe the usual soaking time is several weeks, rather than days. Personally, I trust TCMA traditions rather than modern improvements when it comes to anything Martial Arts related, as they have stood the test of time.
As i stated before, SHAVE all knobby bumps down first, then SAND the staff. When a wasxwood staff is not soaked, and not everyone soaks their staves, the rule of thumb was to do 1000 heartthrusts. Between the sweat, oil, and blood, the staff is developed, the student's skill is developed, and most important, the student's discipline,will and intent is developed.

[Oso]

yea, JP, I'd go with TenTigers advice...you'll be needing the skill development. :D

old traditions are best. that's why I have soaked my staff in fat rendered from 18 year old virgin appalachian girls who have been raised on RC Cola, Moon Pies and Doc Watson. Not TCMA but still, a tradition. ;)

[Judge Pen]

I believe the usual soaking time is several weeks, rather than days. Personally, I trust TCMA traditions rather than modern improvements when it comes to anything Martial Arts related, as they have stood the test of time.
As i stated before, SHAVE all knobby bumps down first, then SAND the staff. When a wasxwood staff is not soaked, and not everyone soaks their staves, the rule of thumb was to do 1000 heartthrusts. Between the sweat, oil, and blood, the staff is developed, the student's skill is developed, and most important, the student's discipline,will and intent is developed.

My staff was shaved and then thoroughly sanded down before immersion in the oil. Fine, I'll soak it there until Labor day (Booms day, Oso--I'll have the barge ready). That will give me time to sharpen the spearhead more. I'll be using it to shave by that time.

Oso, your traditions are faulty. There are no 18 year old Appalachian girls who are still virgins.

[BM2]

One of my antique spear heads has some wood stuck inside it. It is a reddish color.
I really doubt that something as flexable as waxwood was used as put one of my big spear heads on a wax wood pole causing it to bend just holding it straight out. The whipping action was too extreme.

[Judge Pen]

My waxwood staff is 1 and 1/2" in diameter at the bottom and 1" in diameter at the top. It's pretty sturdy.

[Oso]

Oso, your traditions are faulty. There are no 18 year old Appalachian girls who are still virgins.

You have to find them early and kill their father and brothers.

[GeneChing]

I remember reading about some medieval blade quenching methods. I can't recall the source, but one method involved quenching the blade by inserting it down through the shoulder girdle of a kneeling nubian slave. Of course, that's steel, and we're talking about wood, but the Appalacian virgin thing just reminded me of that.

[Oso]

eww, that's inhumane.

I realize I may have been misunderstood.

I am actually performing several beneficial services.

1 - preventing a terrible thing happening to young appalachian girls.

2 - assisting with their self-esteem by paying for liposuction.

I can see how I might have been misunderstood.

[Judge Pen]

Here's a picture of it and the horse hair tassel that I've made.

It's 14 inches long and I should be able to sharpen it to a knife's edge.

[PangQuan]

your tassle can double as a pai mei costume.

well, until you get oso's blood on it

[Oso]

puhleeze.:rolleyes:

I have seen JP fight. He's not toooooo bad but he will not be able to withstand my skills of the staff.

[PangQuan]

:p

where is your staff rooted?

[Oso]

...besides, I bleed bourbon.

[PangQuan]

well then, as a spectator, i will remember to bring a flask

[Judge Pen]

I have seen JP fight. He's not toooooo bad but he will not be able to withstand my skills of the staff.

You've never seen me fight with a razor-sharp spear on a barge floating down the Tennessee river during a huge fireworks display. It's totally different.


...besides, I bleed bourbon.

We'll get along fine. You just added some motivation to draw blood.

[Oso]

:p

where is your staff rooted?

my staff roots where ever it chooses.

;)

[Oso]

well then, as a spectator, i will remember to bring a flask

you won't get narry a drop.



You've never seen me fight with a razor-sharp spear on a barge floating down the Tennessee river during a huge fireworks display. It's totally different.

I hope so. ;)

[Judge Pen]

You should hope not. Just wait until the fireworks turn orange and they start blaring "Rocky Top." That sh!ts like musou rage!

[Oso]

bah... like I said, seek every advantage you can. No one has gotten past my staff in over 20 years. I do not think a young whippersnapper like yourself will do so.

However, I have decided you are worthy and will be kind and allow you to survive and learn from this experience.

[Judge Pen]

However, I have decided you are worthy and will be kind and allow you to survive and learn from this experience.

NO! This is a blood grudge match (officially sanctioned and legal Gene, we promise). There will only be one survivor. *Sharpens spear*

[Oso]

NO! This is a blood grudge match (officially sanctioned and legal Gene, we promise). There will only be one survivor. *Sharpens spear*


yea...we're selling TV rights to Spike...unless TC Media want's to bid on it.

???????

[Judge Pen]

Maybe the SifuAbel ShaolinTiger fight can be the undercard. This one is going to be the fight for the ages.

[Oso]

naw, neither one of us has enough street cred to be top billing for those two.

but, if we could get second billing, we could bum rush the ring and beat the crap out of them with staff and spear.

of course, I would administer the better beating...****...I can't decide who...;)