Traditional Forms still interesting to demo?

[iron_silk]

Basically what I am saying is that with so much wushu and extreme martial arts going around I wonder if people are still interested in watching traditional forms being demonstrated?

Although martial artists can tell genuine forms from acrobatics tricks but typical spectators probably find more entertainment watching stunts performed.

Any thoughts?

[Pork Chop]

I'm always down to watch a good traditional person strut their stuff before any of that acrobatic stuff but if i'm at a tourney and I've got the choice of watching intermediate level students all run through Kung Lek, Bung Bo, Tiger Crane or watching some acrobatic wushu kids busting their humps tryin to get to nationals, i'll probably watch the wushu kids.

I know that sounds like a total contradiction; but really it's not. When i say "good traditional" I mean someone who's got some body connection and power. Tai chi can even be okay to watch if it's done well. Doesn't have to be blazing fast or be all fancy with high kicks, just has to display solid fundamentals. A lot of traditional folks don't really have that and some even resort to "wushu-ifying" their "traditional" with cartwheels & stuff.

All that being said, in terms of pure exhibition, i'd rather watch any type of exhibition fighting (read: toned down ring fight, not choreographed applications demo) than any forms exhibition. hehe

[GeneChing]

Generally speaking, old masters only do traditional forms, not modern wushu or free sparring. When you get on in years, you understand why. ;)

That being said, I focused mostly on old masters for my DVD Shaolin Trips: The First World Traditional Wushu Festival (http://www.martialartsmart.net/dvd-gc001.html). Honestly, I think the forms demos are really only interesting to traditionalists, so we'll see how it sells.

[PangQuan]

im big on application, traditional forms are always a pleasure to watch. so long as they are clear, and powerful.

not too much application shown in modern wushu. probably not too much being taught though either.

its amazing to me really, in all of the modern wushu i have learned, every bit has had application with it.

[SanHeChuan]

a traditional form well done is way better than wushu. But the key is that it has to be performed execptionally. Wushu is performed with amazining speed and power, and traditionalist could learn alot about how to do a form well from them. You need to explode with your techniques as if you were fighting for real...and blah blah blah.

[SPJ]

personally, I always like the "old" forms.

:)

[Blacktiger]

I think the traditional forms over wushu any day.

You have the application factor as well which raises the skill level as opposed to Wushu - just throwing a punch or movement and moving to the next without any thought going into it.

All in all old masters and traditional forms rock :)

[B-Rad]

Depends on who's demoing. A lot of times it's a choice between a good dancer who doesn't understand application (the contemporary guy) and a bad dancer that doesn't understand the application (the "traditional" guy) ;) My favorite forms to see demoed are Xiao Baji Quan, Hung Gar's Tiger & Crane, and good quick Bagua Zhang. I also really like the first international standardized wushu spear form.

[iron_silk]

Of course you (and I) prefer traditional forms, partly because we see the value in the sets compared to the flashy wushu.


BUT what about the public who doesn't know any better? Do they really want to see traditional guys doing sets after watching wushu guys flying through the air?

That's my point...do people (in the general public with lack of kung fu knowledge) enjoy traditional?

[PangQuan]

non martial artists, i think, would enjoy the wushu more.

it is more visually pleasing to the average joe. only a martial artist could appreciate the skill in a well performed traditional set.

[BruceSteveRoy]

I would prefer to watch traditional for the most part unless the wushu person is an exceptionally good gymnast...er...i mean... martial artist. this clip is wushu monkey staff form. its a person winning a gold medal in a tournament in china. maybe i am wrong and just don't know what i am looking at but i fail to see its usefullness. i guess what i am trying to say is that my neighbors daughter can twirl a baton but that doesn't mean she can use it to fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-kqdUXqI9c&search=monkey%20staff

however, this is impressive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytACIbap7r8&search=chang%20quan

i don't know. i just get mad at how little applicable technique most wushuers demonstrate. its all about flash. and at the same time i can't deny the athleticism. long and short is i am more in favor of watching traditional and seeing technique that i can translate into fighting.

~Steve
p.s. on that 2nd clip how does that wushu guy not hurt his junk landing in those splits like that?

[wutymes]

^^^ to the poster above
Zhao Qing Jian trains traditionally a lot too, it's ok that you didn't know. But he is the real thing as well as also a modern champion wushu wise.
Also, he does hurt himself eventuallyy. Many wushu obsessed people think its so cool to be like that, but it really leads to a lot of pain later. Try having to put on Jow every night!

traditional forms are more beautiful in some cases. Their fist movements are intricate, fast, and connect faji really well. Modern forms: do a litle bit, then pause for a few seconds, then run, then go into a xuan feng jiao 900 degrees. Of course, this is like post 2000'ish. It actauly looks really embarassing like you forgot your form. The modern forms from the 80's were beautiful though-they still had application while giving a little more to the eye in terms of speed and athleticism.

[BruceSteveRoy]

yeah, i didn't know who he is. but like i said his form was impressive. i had nothing bad to say about it. i was simply making a critique of modern wushu as a whole. most of it looks too showy with few effective techniques but some of it is very impressive. i guess the best way i can put it is i think it is more art than martial. and again i admire the athleticism even if i am not a fan of the style.

[firepalm]

For the general public most may typically find the Wushu routines more interesting, the streamlined speed of the Wushu movements coupled with high flying kicks usually gets better audience response then typical traditional form.

Look in your own backyard in Vancouver, many of the traditional schools are incorporating Wushu or completely switching over; Kin Fung Athletic Group, Shung Ying Kung Fu Club, Ken Low's Shaolin Kung Fu & Raymond Cheung's Shaolin Hung Gar Kung Fu Club. All have incorporated a great deal of modern wushu. And the current Vancouver Wushu Clubs are going even more acrobatic; West Coast, the Monk and so on...

For many of these schools they demo to promote their schools, they can't grow if people don't enjoy their performances thus more Wushu. Personally I see nothing wrong with it, in fact I applaud the schools that are progressive enough to broaden themselves and what they offer. Some schools like Liang Shouyu treat Wushu as something to train the younger people that can help to develop foundations and then later when they get older they move onto more traditional training, San Shou or Tai Chi. A good work model I think.

Just my two cents! :D

[iron_silk]

For the general public most may typically find the Wushu routines more interesting, the streamlined speed of the Wushu movements coupled with high flying kicks usually gets better audience response then typical traditional form.

Look in your own backyard in Vancouver, many of the traditional schools are incorporating Wushu or completely switching over; Kin Fung Athletic Group, Shung Ying Kung Fu Club, Ken Low's Shaolin Kung Fu & Raymond Cheung's Shaolin Hung Gar Kung Fu Club. All have incorporated a great deal of modern wushu. And the current Vancouver Wushu Clubs are going even more acrobatic; West Coast, the Monk and so on...

For many of these schools they demo to promote their schools, they can't grow if people don't enjoy their performances thus more Wushu. Personally I see nothing wrong with it, in fact I applaud the schools that are progressive enough to broaden themselves and what they offer. Some schools like Liang Shouyu treat Wushu as something to train the younger people that can help to develop foundations and then later when they get older they move onto more traditional training, San Shou or Tai Chi. A good work model I think.

Just my two cents! :D


Good to hear from you firepalm,

I guess it is true that people must progress to gain the popularity wushu and other fancy whatnot.

I sometimes wonder...if people are even interested anymore when watching traditional forms being demo-ed.

I know what you mean...I went to Kin Fung anniversary and at least half of the sets were wushu (repeated). Where you there?

[firepalm]

You know if traditional forms are done well, speed, power, spirit, eye focus, precise movement, etc... they are also good to watch.

The past February at the Pacific Elite Tai Chi event, one of the highlights of the evening was the demo by Wilkie Wu's Bak Mei Club. Except for one Tai Chi spot in their demo it was straight ahead traditional Bak Mei. Bak Mei is not the prettiest style but the speed, spirit, power and so on that students demonstrated made them a joy to watch especially for the traditionalists out there.

At the past Tiger Balms a Master Daniel Kun from the Kong Han Athletic Club did his very traditional Wu Cho Five Ancestors style, his movement, coordination & connection of his body, his power & spirit was so outstanding. This gentleman had real Kung Fu, by that I mean genuine skill. The only problem I think is that few there know CMA well enought to truly appreciate what he did.

Just a footnote!

[WinterPalm]

One difference is that traditional forms are meant to develop a person. I have learned a few sets that are very cool to watch, if you know what you are doing, and I do them regularily, but are very boring according to most people I know. Try dynamic tension in a competition and see how many gold medals you get.
Whereas wushu forms are designed to please a crowd, accomplish certain parameters in the performance, and overall, are meant as a display rather than a method of training to fight. Traditional forms can be very interesting to watch, and many are not slow dynamic tension but fast with fighting applications, but to me, after watching a handful of forms, especially of the same style, I start to get bored reguardless of wushu or kung fu.

[Jimbo]

Although the so-called Extreme Martial Arts and wushu demos are what seem to impress more people, I personally prefer to watch. a good traditional stylist, particularly when they understand the principles and applications...you can often tell by the way they play their sets, and it has nothing to do with how pretty or flashy they are.

After seeing the first two or three, all the ESPN2 type performances look like cookie-cutter mass productions, with only minor technical and personal variations. When you watch a high-level practitioner play his set, although he displays the flavor and distinctiveness of his art, his performance is definitely molded by his personality, physique, and most of all martial experiences that make his interpretation of it unique.

Besides, this constant quest for newer, flashier stunts with every-more "technical difficulty will eventually work against the practitioners of extreme MA. Most people can no longer do a lot of that stuff by the time they get well into their 30s, let alone their 40s and up. More unnatural stress on the joints, muscles, tendons and ligaments; probably even more than wushu. As a traditional CMA-ist is still in his/her physical prime, the X-MA-ist is already on the downslide. Because beneath the superficial flash, there is not much further one can dig.

[BlueTravesty]

I can see why most people like the Modern wushu forms, as they are flashy and tend to have a lot of high-flying kicks... I would be impressed too, if it weren't for all the running. I don't mean that in a "I'm a traditional kung fu practitioner (which I am) so I prefer traditional sets (which I do)" sort of way. I mean that in a "wow, that would have looked really cool without all the running." sort of way.

Some of the Chaquan wushu routines looks really cool since they don't have all that running around crap, of course those are the "classical" sets, and very few traditional sets have running of any kind incorporated. In MJLH the closest to running I've ever seen from sifu or the senior students is the "sand-scraping steps" which are usually accompanied by strikes, and done for limited distances.