The system of clf

[VStanmore]

I took the following article from this link:http://www.clfsd.com/articles.html#system

THE SYSTEM OF CHOY LEE FUT TRANSLATED FROM NOTES
BY MASTER CHEN YONG FA
Author: Lane Louie
There are a total of 148 forms in the choy lee fut system. These are subdivided into 3 levels: primary, secondary and tertiary. Apart from the fist forms, there are also weapons as well as 18 different types of dummies, which are also divided into these 3 categories of primary, secondary and tertiary. Even lion dance routines are another category of the choy lee fut system.
Each category is further subdivided into "soft", "hard", external, internal, long, short, and medium ranges for the weapons categories.
In the primary level fist forms, there are 10 forms, these are:
1."ng lun ma" ( 5 wheel horse)
2."ng lun choy" ( 5 wheel fist)
3,"siu moi fa kuen" ( small pum blossum fist)
4."siu sup ji kuen" ( small cross form)
5."sup ji jit fu kuen' ( cross blocking tiger form)
6."peng kuen" (level fist form)
7."peng jang kuen' ( level elbow form)
8."tet ji cheung kuen" ( iron arrow long form)
9."kung jl fook fu kuen" ( subjuing the tiger form)
10."sup jl kou da kuen" ( cross pattern fighting form)
At the primary level the first type of techniques are "oi lem sou" or external hands. These are "long external hands" which are predominant in the above forms. The main type of techniques are the "long gwa chui's, cheung gnarn chui's, sol chui's etc. There is a lot of importance placed at the primary level in training the various "horse stance" fundamentals to enable the choy lee fut practitioner to be able to fully utilise and harness all the power generated not only by the stance work but also to use the waist and co-ordinate the "whole body" into one effective unit.
Each form at the primary level teaches the choy lee fut practitioner to target specific areas as well as use particular techniques. Even the direction in which a form is executed has "specifics". The way power is generated ~ different in certain forms
For example in "siu moi fa kuen" the movements are mainly in a linear direction and the techniques targeted are: "charp chui, chen ji, biu jong, dert jeung.
The power is generated by fast and flowing movements eg.-
1. "siu sup ji" again the main techniques are: "chen ji, biu jong, cup chui, sol chui"; "jet fu kuen": "chen ji, pek chui, biu jong, chet kiu; "peng jang': "loy yum,cheung gnarn chui,charp chui, and the main emphasis or target area is the "middle section".
2. "tet jin cheung kuen" teaches maneuverability in using the left and right feet as well as single foot movements.
3. "sup ji kou da kuen' places emphasis on the following techniques: "cheung gnarn chui,charn jeung,pow jeung, jin ji.
4. "kung gee fook fu" targets the "fu jow (tiger claw), cup chui, gwa chui and poe chui".
Apart from the fist techniques, there is also emphasis on different stance work within the forms. In the "short forms" of choy lee fut, different forms highlight "particular stances, for example in "peng kuen" the main points are the "tun ma"(swallow), "tol ma (forward bias horse stance) as well as teaching how to "slide" using the horse stance. The horse stance is also "broken down" into "high and low" stances as well as allowing mobility in both offensive and defensive modes. In each of these modes, the use of the "horse stance" allows the practioner to develop and utilse the power differently. For example when on the offensive, using the" tol ma" technique the power is projected forward, whereas when in the "retreat" mode using "tun ma" or "deel ma" the power is still projected forward but the amount of power generated from the stance is inherently different.
Even the way techniques are executed are trained differently. What this means is the way power is generated and applied. For example in" peng jang' (level elbow) the power is fast, flowing and strong, in "kung gee fook fu' the power is strong and slower. Even the energy levels vary from form to form. For example in the "short forms" there is often a "burst" of continuous energy whereas in the "long forms" one must learn to "pace" oneself and train for "endurance" rather than outright speed. At all times one must remember that all the forms are teaching one how to practice for "combat".
At the secondary level, there are a total of 13 fist forms. These are:
1."sze mourn kiu jo sarng ma ( 4 door bridging, running the live horse)
2."sup baat lohan kuen'( 18 lohan hands -internal clf form.
3."jor yol dan keuk kuen" ( left & right alternating Single leg form)
4."oi lem bic da soy sou ying yang kung"(External yin yang sticky exercise for close fighting and hand breaking)
5. "dai bagua kuen" ( large bagua fist form)
6. "siu bagua kuen' ( small bagua fist form)
7. "moi fa bagua kuen" ( plum blossum bagua fist form)
8. "dat ting bagua kuen"(Achieving Harmony Bagua fist form)
9. "yee jong bagua kuen"(Strong Righteousness Bagua fist form)
10."hun yun bagua kuen'(bear man bagua fist form)
11. "dou fu bagua kuen"(fighting tiger bagua fist form)
12."ng ying bagua kuen'(5 animals bagua fist form)
13."bagua sum"( the heart of bagua fist form)
At the secondary level ,the practitoner begins learning "noi lem sou" or internal hands. Techniques that fall into this category are elbows, knees or what is generally known as "2nd and 3rd gate" techniques. Also more emphasis is placed on the "bagua" techniques and forms.
The bagua forms and training also help the choy lee fut practitioner to be able to effectively change not only the direction of "attack" but also the "angle" of attack on 3 different planes. In the primary levels, most of the forms are executed in either a "linear" direction or a "cross pattern". The "bagua's work on the 8 directional changes as well as 3 different' planes'. The "planes" are divided into 3 levels, these are upper, midsection and lower levels. At this level there is also more emphasis placed on speed and the correct execution of techniques relative to directional changes. Having already "mastered" the basic techniques at the "primary levels", the secondary level technique training teaches how to quickly alternate between various techniques and to effect directional changes. For example a straight line or linear technique such as "cheung gnarn chui" executed in the "jee ng ma" stance which targets the head area, is easily changed to a "horizontal back fist or "dart chui" which is known as a spinning back fist by utilising the "kwai ma" stance in conjunction with the turning of the waist. If one then again utilises the waist and "unwinds" the waist another "dart chui" technique can easily be utilised, this can then be followed by a "dang charn. Geuk' or reverse spinning push kick as the weight is transferred onto the front leg allowing one to make use of the "spare leg" to execute the "dang charn geuk' or even a "au sol geuk" (spinning hook kick).


Shame there isn't a part 2 for the article. I would like to read more about the deep, elaborate system of clf. Some very detailed specifics to the forms if you know or have access to them.

For those privileged to learn several of the bagua forms, do you care to comment which form is your favourite and why?

[hskwarrior]

why are you re-posting something that already has been done to death?


are you new to CLF? did you JUST find the information?

[extrajoseph]

why are you re-posting something that already has been done to death?

You don't do that, Frank. Do you?

[VStanmore]

Some nice videoclips of some clf kung fu demonstration.

Even a clip with the clf ching jong!

http://www.choyleefut.com.au/update/gallery.asp

[VStanmore]

Hi EJ,
You are right. Medical theory is a part of clf! (Although it is not widely known by many in the system?)

I took the following from this link :http://www.choyleefut.com.au/medicine.asp

Traditional Chinese medical knowledge is an important aspect of Choy Lee Fut taught to our founder Chan Heung by Choy Fook. Tit Da (the treatment of muscular and skeletal injuries) provides the practitioner with an understanding of their own body as well as knowledge of pressure points for striking.

The understanding of one's muscles, tendons and ligaments as well as one's meridians allow us to better control our bodies and the flow of qi within it. This understanding can also be used to heal injuries sustained during training or combat.

Meridian and acupuncture points can also be used for devastating pressure point strikes, which form part of the higher level of Choy Lee Fut training.

The gall bladder channel is one of the twelve regular channels

Our Sifu - Chen, Yong Fa is also a qualified practitioner of traditional Chinese medicine, graduating from the Kwangtung College of Traditional Chinese Medicine, and also inheriting knowledge from his ancestors. He currently practices inside the Sydney school whilst also teaching kung fu, qigong, and traditional Chinese medicine.

[VStanmore]

The system of Choy Lee Fut is very complete in structure. It has theory as well as practice. You may have heard of the 13 postures of taiji, and the 12 bridges of Hung Gar. What about Choy Lee Fut Kung Fu?

Maybe many don't realise that Choy Lee Fut also has a foundation of principles called the sup baat ji kuet or 18 characters formula, which I think Sifu Chen Yong Fa has taught in the form of seminar.

Having such knowledge will enable one to better understand how the system and style of choy lee fut operates and is applied; the combination of both theory and practice may enable the training of a better CLF practitioner!

Those who know it, I encourage you to share some info and views for the benefit of many!

[extrajoseph]

It would be good if Frank could post his system of Fut Gar Jing Jung from Futsan and see if it has any similarity to CLF, after all one of Jeong Yim's teacher was Chan Heung!

:D

[hskwarrior]

yeah Chan Heung was one of Jeong Yim's teachers.

as well as Lee Yau San, and Monk Ching Cho. I mean fut san's ching cho, not the one the chan family stole from Jeong Yim's lineage.

See, if we wanted to bow down and follow the Chan family version that the GGM is Choy Fook, and we follow the Jeong Yim lineage than Chan Heung sent his disciple to one of his sifu's to complete his training.

In a major way, if Choy Fook was Ching Cho, then Jeong Yim became Chan Heung's Classmate under the same sifu.

See, if you remember the Hung Sing branch claims that Chan Heung sent Jeong Yim to Ching Cho. But Ching Cho according to Chan Family branch is Choy Fook. they were classmates then.

So which is it?

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

So which part of the Fut Gar Jing Jung system was passed down by Lee Yau Shan and which by Ching Cho?

Since there is no evidence that Ching Cho ever existed, I would say he was more likely to be an alias used by Chan Heung then an actual person. Have you got any evidence to say otherwise?

EJ

[VStanmore]

If Choy Fook was ching cho, then jeong yim could not have learnt from ching cho. So No. He could not be Chan Heung's classmate.

Lee Yau san was Chan Heung's teacher. Not Jeong Yim's.

Choy Lee Fut was founded by Chan Heung and NOT Jeong yim. So it is irrelevant whether jeong yim promoted his school or not. If he taught CLF, then he is teaching a kung fu system founded by Chan Heung.

If green grass monk was shaolin monk and taught jeong Yim then there should be evidence in the contents of jeong yim's lineage. So you are pure jeong yim lineage? The Fut gar jing jung means authentic shaolin. Southern shaolin is strongly based on the animals dragon, tiger, crane, leopard and snake.
Hung Gar, a very shaolin system, has these five animals in the system and is very evident in the contents of the style.
If Jeong yim learnt from ching cho who was suppose to be a shaolin monk, then where are the classical animal forms in your lineage? You don't have them, do you? Then how can you prove jeong yim learnt from a shaolin monk called ching cho? It doesn't make sense.

Or did jeong yim pass down animal forms but it got lost in YOUR lineage?
So which is it??

And before you bring up your "um ying kuen" , if I'm not mistaken, its the same five animals form taught by DFW and DFW has written a book on it called shaolin five animals. It is NOT a choy lee fut form taught from jeong yim to yuen hai to lau bun. It was supposedly a "shaolin" form which lau bun learnt from Yuen Hai's wife, not Yuen Hai himself.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

Jeong Yim never learned the Ng Ying because he was too busy promoting his own Fut Gar Jing Jung! Is that right?

:D

[VStanmore]

:eek: :D :D :D :D

[VStanmore]

Here is a link where you can see the book on Frank's "um ying kuen".

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0865680809/sr=8-4/qid=1148350922/ref=sr_1_4/002-5962016-9784824?%5Fencoding=UTF8

[CLFNole]

So it is not a CLF form? Does that make it bad or not useful? Where is the so called humility CLF and all martial arts is supposed to teach? All I see here is nothing but making fun of other people, plain and simple and to be honest it is getting old.

[VStanmore]

The system of Choy Lee Fut contains five sounds which are related to the five shaolin animals.
Contrary to some opinion, the choy lee fut sounds are not just for the sake of making noise in battle so others know your style. It is a form of hei gung, and is use to cultivate what is classically linked to five animals training of the classical shaolin animals.

For example, the "yik" sound for the dragon, and cultivation of "spirit".

The "wak" sound of Tiger , tiger training strengthening bones.

The "hok" sound for crane training essence or "jing".

The "hak"?? sound for snake cultivating qi.

The "dik" sound of leopard cultivating strength.

How many people realise that the system of Choy Lee Fut kungfu founded by Chan Heung is a very well documented system in terms of detail and contents. The sound hei gung is not transmitted purely by "heresay", there is actually written documentation. In one manuscript by Chan Yiu Chi, a certain chapter provides description of the sounds and their function, and interestingly one might expect the document to be "inner transmission" and in no way does it suggest the sounds are a form of "battle cry for recognition".

Actually Sifu Howard Choy, student of the direct descendent of the founder of Choy Lee Fut (Chan Heung) Sifu Chen Yong Fa, actually did a translation of the particular chapter from the manuscript of Chan Yiu Chi. It was available online for some time so others may have seen the chapter/info.

Interestingly, advanced Hung Gar training for the internal development also uses various sounds and some resemble that of the Choy Lee Fut sounds.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I have read some of the translations from Sifu Howard Choy. Can you post some links as to where his translations can be found? And/or some contact info for him?

Thanks!

[extrajoseph]

I think Howard Choy is married to Chen Yong-Fa's sister, he has his own website and you can contact him there:

http://www.tai-chi-centre.com

[hskwarrior]

Joseph,

as i've said before Ching Cho passed on the In and Out bagua.

what Lee Yau San passed on to Jeong Yim i don't know. Jeong Yim was a young boy when he learned from Lee Yau San.

what are you trying to tell me that Lee Yau San was strictly Chan Heung's teacher, and that Lee Yau San never taught anyone else?

Are you trying to tell me that it was impossible for jeong yim to learn from Lee Yau San, and why? The only way that can be fake is if Chan Heung created Lee Yau San Himself. Just like your elders are trying to make the world believe Ching Cho is Choy Fook.

Just cause you don't know what Ching Cho passed down to Jeong Yim doesn't mean it isn't so. Hell, in all of your 50 years of CLF experience you have yet to see, or read anything that was written by the actual CLF founder and pass it off as the info was lost in the cultural revlolution. yeah right.

so, joseph, why don't you tell me what CHing CHo and Lee Yau San passed down to Jeong Yim. You seem to have an answer for everything. correct or not.

Joseph, stay out of HSK business and stick to your Chan Family stuff. We have our history, and the longer you butt into it you only look like a spoiled chan family supporter who doesn't want to lose their ground.

As i've said, in fut san the actual ancestral tablet was found during the japanese invasion. Have i seen the tablet no. I don't go to fut san that often. But i plan to ask to see it the next time i'm there.

so, yes, your chan family information on Jeong Yim is nill and void.

[Fu-Pow]

I have read some of the translations from Sifu Howard Choy. Can you post some links as to where his translations can be found? And/or some contact info for him?

Thanks!

Hey Michael-

I have a whole slew of writings from Howard Choy that someone compiled from when Chan Family website forum before they shut it down. He's got all kinds of stuff about CLF theory, animal forms, etc. If you want I can send you the whole thing via email. What's your email again? You can send it to me via PM if you want.

FP

[extrajoseph]

Joseph,

as i've said before Ching Cho passed on the In and Out bagua.

what Lee Yau San passed on to Jeong Yim i don't know. Jeong Yim was a young boy when he learned from Lee Yau San.

what are you trying to tell me that Lee Yau San was strictly Chan Heung's teacher, and that Lee Yau San never taught anyone else?

Are you trying to tell me that it was impossible for jeong yim to learn from Lee Yau San, and why? The only way that can be fake is if Chan Heung created Lee Yau San Himself. Just like your elders are trying to make the world believe Ching Cho is Choy Fook.

Just cause you don't know what Ching Cho passed down to Jeong Yim doesn't mean it isn't so. Hell, in all of your 50 years of CLF experience you have yet to see, or read anything that was written by the actual CLF founder and pass it off as the info was lost in the cultural revlolution. yeah right.

so, joseph, why don't you tell me what CHing CHo and Lee Yau San passed down to Jeong Yim. You seem to have an answer for everything. correct or not.

Joseph, stay out of HSK business and stick to your Chan Family stuff. We have our history, and the longer you butt into it you only look like a spoiled chan family supporter who doesn't want to lose their ground.

As i've said, in fut san the actual ancestral tablet was found during the japanese invasion. Have i seen the tablet no. I don't go to fut san that often. But i plan to ask to see it the next time i'm there.

so, yes, your chan family information on Jeong Yim is nill and void.

Hi frank,

I have only done research on CLF history, I don't know anything about your history and your art, why don't you tell us how Fut Gar Jing Jung was found and what is in in your Futsan Hung Sing Kuen and where they came from?

If your founder Jeong Yim learned from Ching Cho, what did he passed down apart from the "in and out Bagua"? (stange name, how is it writen in Chinese?) If he also learned from Lee Yau Shan, what did he passed down and what was his specialty? I have heard he learned from our founder Chan Heung too, what did he passed down to your style?

You don'tseem to do anything like CLF, so it would be good to compare notes with us, that is if you want to.

EJ

[VStanmore]

Hi EJ,
Do you think if we told Frank what Lee Yau San's art was like, the info will be re-invented as something Lee passed down to Jeong Yim of hung sing kuen, from fut gar jing jung??:D :D

Jeong yim learnt a short time with CLF founder Chan Heung. How did it affect hung sing kuen from fut gar jing jung??:D :D

[hskwarrior]

joseph, you should go and ask fut san hsk.

why are you relying on me?

is this just a personal attack because i say your chan family history on Jeong Yim is a crock?

You know i don't make it a personal thing to down the Chan Family and their history. I have a problem when chan family members try to tell the world that Jeong Yim didn't come into the picture much later that when he did, was much lower that he actually was, and so on with all of the deception.

If no one spoke up about that, then everyone would still be going to the chan family about Fut San HSK.

Your branch says chan heung used the hung sing name first. but we've come to realize that they were two completely different characters and meanings.

Your branch doesn't mention (now they do as Choy Fook) Ching Cho, but the Fut San HSK does.

Your branch doesn't mention Jeong Yim previously learned from Lee Yau San, but Fut San HSK where the lineage still runs strong does.

Your branch says CHan Heung sent Jeong Yim to Fut San. However, Jeong Yims branch doesn't say Chan Heung sent him there. His branch says Monk Ching Cho sent him there to hook up with the Fut San Hung Mun headquarters. Jeong Yim and his disciples (some are named) were known to be hardcore revolutionaries.

I could go on and on about what your branch says about us, and what our branch says about us. You haven't told us why we should believe chan heung about Jeong Yim over the descendants of Jeong Yim.

You say you have not seen any chan heung writings, but you still believe what the grandson tries to say about Jeong Yim instead of going to Chan Ngau Sing, Yuen Hai, or Lee Yan's or eve Lui Chun's people. according to you we should only go to and believe the chan family about Jeong Yim and Fut San HSK.

you still haven't explained why our openings in the forms are different that each other when Jeong Yim was supposed to be a long time descendant of Chan Heung. why fut san and buk sing don't practice chan family clf. you haven't explained why Jeong Yim changed the name of the school your branch says he went to take over. If Jeong Yim was such a chan Family member, why did he change the name to use his own? Plus, now what can you say about Jeong Yim's name? where did he get that Hung Sing name? From Chan heung? or Chan Heung's great sage hung sing?

can you explain why Jeong Yim's new character (wild geese) and the Hung character has the same 3 ticks on the left side of the character if he wasn't involved with the Hung Mun?
As the Fut San HSK we have said that Jeong Yim stayed with Chan Heung for only about 5 years. However, your branch cannot effectively tell us how long Jeong Yim studied and what he learned from Chan Heung. it's probably not in Chan Family records.

So you tell me, with so many holes in the chan family account of Jeong Yim....."why should anyone wanting to know about Fut San Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut go to Chan Family Choy Lee Fut?
can you explain that?

with some many discrepancies between all of our branches when it comes to history, you fail to realize it all doesn't really matter.

The reason why Jeong Yim's HSK doesn't teach Chan Family CLF is because

[Fu-Pow]

What is this Fut Gar Jing Jung I've been hearing so much about. Is it a style related to Choy Lay Fut? ;) :D

[hskwarrior]

now,

I understand the chan family clf was documented by chan Yiu chi, and have a great wealth of history of Chan Heung's Choy Lee Fut.

But the don't have a great history of Jeong Yim and his Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon.
For whatever reasons being they were illiterate or whatever, the gung fu of the HSK is not that well documented. I am not afraid to say that.

but chan Family CLF is no better just because they wrote their own history down.

As 've said, I've never said the Chan Family isn't well documented. Yet, that is the Chan Family of CLF.

[extrajoseph]

What is this Fut Gar Jing Jung I've been hearing so much about. Is it a style related to Choy Lay Fut? ;) :D

According to our histrian Frank here, Fut Gar Jing Jung was founded by Jeong Yim after studying with Chan Heung, Lee Yau Shan and Ching Cho. It is also called Futsan Hung Sing Kuen with its birthplace in Futsan.

They have a sexy form called In and Out Bak Gwa in which they made it really long and last for hours. Apart from that, we are waiting for Frank to tell us more about its history and system, but it is definitely different to Chan Family CLF because it is not CLF.

[extrajoseph]

now,

I understand the chan family clf was documented by chan Yiu chi, and have a great wealth of history of Chan Heung's Choy Lee Fut.

But the don't have a great history of Jeong Yim and his Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon.
For whatever reasons being they were illiterate or whatever, the gung fu of the HSK is not that well documented. I am not afraid to say that.

but chan Family CLF is no better just because they wrote their own history down.

As 've said, I've never said the Chan Family isn't well documented. Yet, that is the Chan Family of CLF.

Hi Frank,

If Futsan Hung Sing Kwoon is not very well documented how did you come to the conclusion that Jeong Yim founded the Fut Gar Jing Jung School with Futsan Hung Sing Kuen? Could it be you just made it up, like you are telling a liar?

If it is that easy to write your own history, why didn't Fursan Hung Sing Kwoon do the same, I am sure there were hundreds and thousands of memebrs and not all of them were illiterate or whatever.

If they can come up with a name like In and Out Bak Gwa, may be they were!

:eek: :D :D :D

[Fu-Pow]

Anyone know the translation of in and out bagua?

[CLFNole]

XJ:

Define what a "sexy" form is. :eek: Anything like the infamous CLF 3/4' Staff Form :D

[VStanmore]

Hi Frank,

If Futsan Hung Sing Kwoon is not very well documented how did you come to the conclusion that Jeong Yim founded the Fut Gar Jing Jung School with Futsan Hung Sing Kuen? Could it be you just made it up, like you are telling a liar?

If it is that easy to write your own history, why didn't Fursan Hung Sing Kwoon do the same, I am sure there were hundreds and thousands of memebrs and not all of them were illiterate or whatever.

If they can come up with a name like In and Out Bak Gwa, may be they were!

:eek: :D :D :D

Good point EJ!

If not well documented, then just heresay?? MADE UP ANYTHING??:D

Frank goes on about how he knows his branches history, yet why does he need to rely on the biased (?) heresay (with no evidence) of an elder from another branch (buk sing?) to support his claims about his "lineage history"?

Yet on the link he posted, We can see this quote: "For the record, we, The Buck Sing Gwoon, maintain Chan Heung as the founder of Choy Lay Fut"

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41441&page=10

[hskwarrior]

joseph,

actually this is not my thought. I only echoed it.

I personally feel that Jeong Yim called his art what ever he wanted to.

However, according to the elders who are still in their 90's now, who lived during a time when CLF was striving, that Jeong Yim didn't call his art CLF. It was other sifu's who recognized Jeong Yim's art as having elements of Choy Ga, Lee Ga, and Fut ga.

You want to believe in words that were written by a dead guy, but here we have a living CLF legend in two places who recount the history. According to one of them it was a possibility that Jeong Yim's art since it was a combination of Lee Yau San, Chan Heung, and Monk Ching Cho....that his art was in its original state was "possibly" (i say possibly-not them) that Jeong Yims art was called Hung Sing Kuen.

You don't research Jeong Yim's history Joseph. I do. When It comes to what the elders say about my lineage I will listen. it doesn't mean i will believe everything i hear, but it doesn't mean i will discount it. For example, if someone in the Fut San HSK tried tell me that Jeong Yim created the jongs then I would have to tell them that is wrong because even I think Koon Pak had a big thing to do with the promotion of CLF jongs.

But like the bible and GOD, there is more to Jeong Yim than is really known. It is up to us to figure out what is missing.

see, I still see Chan Heung as starting CLF. But he kept his real CLF for his bloodline. Jeong Yim took what he learned from Chan Heung, and based his gung fu off of the latters gung fu as well as ching cho's and Lee Yau sans. But i also see Jeong Yim as the founder of FUt San Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut. Something not taught in Chan Heung's branch. so with the roots being with chan Heung's gung fu there is no way for you to expel him and not say he isn't CLF.

Jeong Yim's name and CLF are synonymous.

You ask me about what Lee Yau San passed down to Jeong Yim, but then again you have not seen in the whole of your 50 years in CLF "NO" wriitings from Chan Heung, so how do you know what Lee Yau San passed down to Chan Heung

How will we know without the actual writings of CHan Heung what was passed on from choy fook, Lee Yau San, and Chan Yuen Wu. even within your own branch its not known whether Chan Yuen Wu taught Shaolin, Hung Ga or Fut Ga. I've seen everyone of those stating that Chan Yuen Wu was a master of those ones i just mentioned.

[extrajoseph]

joseph,

actually this is not my thought. I only echoed it.

I personally feel that Jeong Yim called his art what ever he wanted to.

However, according to the elders who are still in their 90's now, who lived during a time when CLF was striving, that Jeong Yim didn't call his art CLF. It was other sifu's who recognized Jeong Yim's art as having elements of Choy Ga, Lee Ga, and Fut ga.

You want to believe in words that were written by a dead guy, but here we have a living CLF legend in two places who recount the history. According to one of them it was a possibility that Jeong Yim's art since it was a combination of Lee Yau San, Chan Heung, and Monk Ching Cho....that his art was in its original state was "possibly" (i say possibly-not them) that Jeong Yims art was called Hung Sing Kuen.

You don't research Jeong Yim's history Joseph. I do. When It comes to what the elders say about my lineage I will listen. it doesn't mean i will believe everything i hear, but it doesn't mean i will discount it. For example, if someone in the Fut San HSK tried tell me that Jeong Yim created the jongs then I would have to tell them that is wrong because even I think Koon Pak had a big thing to do with the promotion of CLF jongs.

But like the bible and GOD, there is more to Jeong Yim than is really known. It is up to us to figure out what is missing.

see, I still see Chan Heung as starting CLF. But he kept his real CLF for his bloodline. Jeong Yim took what he learned from Chan Heung, and based his gung fu off of the latters gung fu as well as ching cho's and Lee Yau sans. But i also see Jeong Yim as the founder of FUt San Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut. Something not taught in Chan Heung's branch. so with the roots being with chan Heung's gung fu there is no way for you to expel him and not say he isn't CLF.

Jeong Yim's name and CLF are synonymous.

You ask me about what Lee Yau San passed down to Jeong Yim, but then again you have not seen in the whole of your 50 years in CLF "NO" wriitings from Chan Heung, so how do you know what Lee Yau San passed down to Chan Heung

How will we know without the actual writings of CHan Heung what was passed on from choy fook, Lee Yau San, and Chan Yuen Wu. even within your own branch its not known whether Chan Yuen Wu taught Shaolin, Hung Ga or Fut Ga. I've seen everyone of those stating that Chan Yuen Wu was a master of those ones i just mentioned.

Hi Frank,

This is where you have to learn a little bit about the Chinese culture.

To the Chinese, especially the older generations, knowledge is power, literally.

So the founder of a system, no matter who or what, will always keep something for his bloodline, it is a proven strategy for survival in Chinese history.

He will always make sure he has someone in the family to continue his art and then pass the remaining secrets to them, then he makes sure there is an inner circle of disciples who will protect his bloodline and his art....

From this, we can see where Jeong Yim stands.

Go and read more books on Chinese history and philosophy and you will know what I am talking about.

EJ

[VStanmore]

A link where you can see supposedly a dvd about Frank's "um ying kuen".

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009SO4KA/ref=pd_kar_gw_1/002-5962016-9784824?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=130

[hskwarrior]

i know what you are talking about. i've been raised around chinese all my life.

i just don't try and live like a chinese.

and i think bloodline and secrets go for more than just chinese. I would do the same for my sons or daughters as well.

So, now, I hope you can see why there is a stand off.

Chan Heung first created his CLF and passed it down through his bloodline.

Jeong Yim wasn't his bloodline. So regardless, he would never have gotten CHan Heung's most intimate CLF. that was meant for his bloodline.

However, Jeong Yim with all the gung fu he had in his background started his own lineage and we all see him as you see Chan Heung.

According to the FUt San HSK, not me, Jeong Yim had more than just Chan Heung as his teacher. It's always been said that before CHan Heung Jeong Yim already had some gung fu. then He learned longer with Ching Cho than he did with Chan heung.

Joseph, as long as the Chan Family has something to say about Jeong Yim' branch, this argument will never end. look at you and me, we go back now for a few years.

let us have our story, you have yours, tam sam has his and we are all one big happy CLF family.

[hskwarrior]

so joseph,

when you act like you have to knowledge, does that mean you have to act like you have all the power?

Just because Chan Yiu Chi happened to write down the history of his grandfather and of the style his grandfather created, that doesn't mean that the Fut San HSK doesn't have a worthy story to be told.

[extrajoseph]

Frank,

By my long absence from this forum you know I don't come here often until someone tells me that you are bad mouthing Chan Heung again.

My old man had a long association with the Chan Family so I have a duty to present their side of the story, even when I know Chen Yong Fa gave instruction to his students not to say anything in this forum.

You can glorify and tell stories about Jeong Yim and Futsan Hung Sing as much as you like, but not at the expense of Chen Heung and his descendants through your ignorance.

I have nothing to say about Jeong Yim except he is not and could not be the founder of CLF, which I have been doing all my life.

If you can understand this, then you will not hear from me at all. Otherwise I'll pop up everytime you push my button.

Until then...

EJ

[hskwarrior]

you want to exchange numbers, i'll call you to ***** and complain about your Chan Family CLF to your personally?;) :rolleyes: :D

Now, I will never try and down play Chan Heung. He is one of Jeong Yim's sifu's.
However, our lineage differs than yours, and all we want is to tell our history.

If our history conflicts with yours, then we should have a conference again and this time iron out only the discrepancies. on both ends.

because you and i both know there are major discrepancies on both ends.

as you have your duty, I have mine. If you can respect that, than i can respect your position. I don't want to argue over history. Once all the drama ceases, our problems will too. Then and only then can we become one great Family.

GET IT!!!!:D

[hskwarrior]

And oh.......

I never Said Jeong Yim was founder of CLF, just co-founder.;)

But for his own branch he is a founder.;)

There's no need to argue anymore. if we don't know then we don't know. we have ours you have yours and we can all live peacefully.

In the words of the immortal Rodney King.........

CHoy Lee Fut people.......Can we all just get along?????????:rolleyes:

[VStanmore]

I took the following article from this link:http://www.clfsd.com/articles.html#system

THE SYSTEM OF CHOY LEE FUT TRANSLATED FROM NOTES
BY MASTER CHEN YONG FA
Author: Lane Louie
There are a total of 148 forms in the choy lee fut system. These are subdivided into 3 levels: primary, secondary and tertiary. Apart from the fist forms, there are also weapons as well as 18 different types of dummies, which are also divided into these 3 categories of primary, secondary and tertiary. Even lion dance routines are another category of the choy lee fut system.
Each category is further subdivided into "soft", "hard", external, internal, long, short, and medium ranges for the weapons categories.
In the primary level fist forms, there are 10 forms, these are:
1."ng lun ma" ( 5 wheel horse)
2."ng lun choy" ( 5 wheel fist)
3,"siu moi fa kuen" ( small pum blossum fist)
4."siu sup ji kuen" ( small cross form)
5."sup ji jit fu kuen' ( cross blocking tiger form)
6."peng kuen" (level fist form)
7."peng jang kuen' ( level elbow form)
8."tet ji cheung kuen" ( iron arrow long form)
9."kung jl fook fu kuen" ( subjuing the tiger form)
10."sup jl kou da kuen" ( cross pattern fighting form)
At the secondary level, there are a total of 13 fist forms. These are:
1."sze mourn kiu jo sarng ma ( 4 door bridging, running the live horse)
2."sup baat lohan kuen'( 18 lohan hands -internal clf form.
3."jor yol dan keuk kuen" ( left & right alternating Single leg form)
4."oi lem bic da soy sou ying yang kung"(External yin yang sticky exercise for close fighting and hand breaking)
5. "dai bagua kuen" ( large bagua fist form)
6. "siu bagua kuen' ( small bagua fist form)
7. "moi fa bagua kuen" ( plum blossum bagua fist form)
8. "dat ting bagua kuen"(Achieving Harmony Bagua fist form)
9. "yee jong bagua kuen"(Strong Righteousness Bagua fist form)
10."hun yun bagua kuen'(bear man bagua fist form)
11. "dou fu bagua kuen"(fighting tiger bagua fist form)
12."ng ying bagua kuen'(5 animals bagua fist form)
13."bagua sum"( the heart of bagua fist form)
?

For those interested, Chan Heung in his work "Choy Lee Fut pai lian kuen hung kung bei yil" or The secret essentials of training the style of Choy Lee Fut provides much knowledge and guidance for the training of the practitioner of CLF. l

Chan Heung broke down the training of his system into 2 main stages, each of which has 3 sub-stages....culminating in complete mastery of the systems foundation as well as nei jin or internal power, and the weapons and art of sand bag and jongs.
For lian kung, Chan Heung listed sup yil or 10 essentials of which number 7 and hei cheung and number 8 faht heung indicates the importance of breathing in the art of Choy Lee Fut.
Chan Heung says "Mei lian kuen sik ji chin, sihn jarp ma bo" and the kuet lian ho sao but yue lian ho jou indicate the importance of the footwork training in CLF. The system contains two types of stances, both koh jong and dai jong.

I think the koh jong is for application, but for initial training the dai jong is more beneficial.
As the founder has indicated, the system of CLF stresses great importance in stance and footwork training, and this is also reflected in that the first form one should learn is the ng lun ma or five wheel stance. Here you practice all the basic stances and footwork of the system.....and as early as possible the internal training is initiated through breath control to try and harness some of the power of the chi. Such that the exercise is not purely ngoi kung but also includes noi kung. Of course that is if you train the form correctly and with understanding.

But the footwork training does not stop there. You can see at the intermediate level there is the sei mun kil jow sarng ma form which should be, if I'm not mistaken, originally two separate forms. the sei mun kil contains good bridging techniques.
The jow sarng ma is for training the "running the live horse" footwork and stance transitions. It is important to develop balance in conjunction with explosive bil ma, and in application will allow you to explode and bridge the gap in distance quickly and suddenly.
Further footwork training includes the wooden stakes mui fah jong, and indeed the penetrating dragon dummy will put your stance body connection, and strength of footwork under pressure and challenge and train you to improve these.

In the ping kuen, you learn the sliding horse and the tun ma or swallowing horse and the tol ma or spitting horse.

Of course there is also the baat gwa training in the baat gwa forms.
If you are interested in fighting but don't want to learn many forms, there is the see lo sarn sau which is a series of extremely effective combinations of the baat gwa hands/fighting techniques. It is like a crash course in CLF fighting, and I think intensive drilling of them will quickly build your skill for fighting application.

Those who like a good balance of hands and foot training may like the jor yul darn geuk kuen which explores the harmonious interplay of hand and foot techniques.

[extrajoseph]

And oh.......

I never Said Jeong Yim was founder of CLF, just co-founder.;)

But for his own branch he is a founder.;)

There's no need to argue anymore. if we don't know then we don't know. we have ours you have yours and we can all live peacefully.

In the words of the immortal Rodney King.........

CHoy Lee Fut people.......Can we all just get along?????????:rolleyes:

Hi Frank,

I am trying to stay away but you keep pulling me back with your thoughtless comments. One more try:

CLF is like a huge tree and having branches means there is a tunk and roots to keep the tree strong and upright.

The trunk is Chan Heung and the roots are Shaolin.

Don't try to turn the 3 branches into 3 trunks, that would make it odd tree and we will not survive.

Build more branches but keep the trunk and the roots healthy and we will survive, otherwise we die.

It is not only history we are talking about here, it is about the survival of a tradition, which is up to us.

CLF Yut Gar!

EJ

[hskwarrior]

just as long as Tam Sam and Jeong Yim are standing in the same founders box, then there will be no more problems brother joe.

i know you only say i'm thoughtless because of how i stand on my position.

but i got love for ya anyway dude.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

Take a look at a healthy tree sometime, it has many branches and one thick trunk! Tam Sam, Jeong Yim and Loong Chi-Choy are the founders of a branch but Chan Heung is the trunk and our roots are in Shaolin.

So here is a picture of a healthy CLF "tree" :

Our roots are in Shaolin,
Chan Heung is the trunk, the founder of CLF,
Tam Sam is the founder of the Bak Sing branch of CLF (youngest),
Jeong Yim is the founder of Great Victory Hung Sing branch of CLF (in the middle),
Loong Chi Choy is the founder of Heroic Hung Sing branch of CLF (oldest), and
Chan Heung's descendants belong to the Great Sage Hung Sing branch of CLF, also an extension of the trunk.

Like a tree, there are many parts where two or three branches are mixed and also mixed with the trunk. By studying with Dino and then with Futsan you are mixing the branches but you are still part of the same tree.

But trying to cut off the Jeong Yim branch and forcefuly graft it onto the main trunk (insisting on Jeong Yim being the co-founder of CLF), you will either be rejected and fall off or kill the tree eventually. Do you really want this?

If you want to be a Futsan Hung Sing hero, then don't try to cut it off from the rest of the tree, make it a healthy and strong branch instead, then everyone in CLF will benefit from your action and you can stand tall and proud.

Divide and we shall fall, work together and we will be healthy and strong and above all, we will endure. What do you say?

CLF Yut Gar!

[CLFNole]

XJ:

Who were some of the more well known sifus from the Loong Chi Choy - Heroic Victory Hung Sing branch?

Just curious becuase you never here much about it.

Thanks.

[hskwarrior]

CLFNOLE,

I know others will bring up......"it was common to cross train and switch from sifu to sifu" because they were CLF.

But, according to the Li Iu Ling website, Lee Yan, Yuen Hai, and a few others who are well known disciples of Jeong Yim were labelled as Loong Gee Choy's students.

But, nowhere in any of these existing branches claim Loong Gee Choy.

This is one of the reasons I think Loong Gee Choy and Jeong Yim could possibly be the same person.

Not much is known about loong gee choy unless the chan family just never released anything. but if there was mor on him, then i think would have found it, heard about it or read it. But, the only branch that speaks about Loong Gee Choy is the Chan Family.

Now, Joseph, if you jump in on this, let's not get this out of hand. It is just a theory I have.

[hskwarrior]

http://www.liiuling.net.au/pdf/CLFlineages.pdf

the link above says that Loong Gee Choy's students were:

Chung Yeung, Cheung Hing, Yuen Hai (lau buns sifu) , Li Yan (singapore hsk line) and Lui Chun,(Tam Sam's sifu).

However, if this were true, why don't any of these currently existing schools have Loong Gee Choy in their lineage, but "ALL" are well known disciples of Jeong Hung Sing.

also, Joseph, i think you are wrong about On Pak dying young. According to the Li Iu Ling site On Pak died in his early 30's in 1873. Dying in your 30's was and still is considered young, especially when back then people were living over 100 years.

[hskwarrior]

Who actually started the Heroic Hung Sing?

From what i read, some say it was Chan Yiu Chi, some say Chan Koon Pak, and now maybe Loong Gee Choy????

If it was Loong Gee Choy, then why was his Hung SIng different to that of Chan Family, he was such a trusted disciple Chan Heung left him to take care of him?

[extrajoseph]

The reason why CLF is so strong in the southern part of China and the official Nanquan is mostly CLF is because of the legacy of Loong Chi-Choy.

The present day Wushu officials in Guangdong were mostly from his line, people like Ou Han-Quan, Chen Cheng-Mian (Eddie inquired about him earlier) and Dong De-Qian, they came through Fong Yuk-Shu and Yuan Hai. Yuan was trained mainly by Loong Chi-Choy who came from Guangzi, therefore his influence never gone much beyond the mainland so you guys don't hear much of him in America, except his connection with Lau Bun but Frank reckon Yuan studied with Jeong Yim and not with Loong.

Don't forget they did not have the kind of branch separation and the distance like we have today, everyone trained together, so many of the second generations studied with Loong Chi-Choy and Jeong Yim, Jeong Yim and Chan Koon-Pak, Loong Chi-Choy and Chan Koon-Pak and host of other instructors trained by Chan Heung and some even get to train with Chan Heung when he was alive, at the same time.

But according to the Fong Yuk-Shu's line they traced their lineage back to Loong and their line is politically very strong and that means something in China.

[CLFNole]

So are you saying that the majority of CLF from mainland China comes from Loong Chi Choy?

Do you know if CLF spread to Taiwan? I know it spread into Singapore and Malaysia but I have heard anything about Taiwan.

Thanks.

[extrajoseph]

Who actually started the Heroic Hung Sing?

From what i read, some say it was Chan Yiu Chi, some say Chan Koon Pak, and now maybe Loong Gee Choy????

If it was Loong Gee Choy, then why was his Hung SIng different to that of Chan Family, he was such a trusted disciple Chan Heung left him to take care of him?

Loong Chi-Choy did not started Heroic Hung Sing, it came by way of neccessity to hide the name "Great Sage" from the Ching government.

It is a courtesy to give the honour to Loong Chi-Choy to acknowledge his contribution to CLF. Heroic Hung Sing and Great Sage Hung Sing were synonymous at one time.

[Fu-Pow]

For those interested, Chan Heung in his work "Choy Lee Fut pai lian kuen hung kung bei yil" or The secret essentials of training the style of Choy Lee Fut provides much knowledge and guidance for the training of the practitioner of CLF. l

Where did you get this info, is this book available?



Chan Heung broke down the training of his system into 2 main stages, each of which has 3 sub-stages....culminating in complete mastery of the systems foundation as well as nei jin or internal power, and the weapons and art of sand bag and jongs.

What are the 2 stages and what are the substages?



For lian kung, Chan Heung listed sup yil or 10 essentials of which number 7 and hei cheung and number 8 faht heung indicates the importance of breathing in the art of Choy Lee Fut.

Translations for lian kung, sup yil and faht heung....please.



Chan Heung says "Mei lian kuen sik ji chin, sihn jarp ma bo" and the kuet lian ho sao but yue lian ho jou indicate the importance of the footwork training in CLF. The system contains two types of stances, both koh jong and dai jong.

Could you translate the saying and koh jong and dai jong.

[hskwarrior]

what else do you know about loong gee choy joseph?

why is his line so short?

why woud his own people not claim him?

You say i reckon that Yuen Learned from Jeong Yim. However, Professor Lau Bun never told this to Jew Leong or any of his other students. I'm sure if Loong Gee Choy was Yuen Hai's teacher Lau Bun would have told his students that.

I'm sure Lau Bun asked Yuen Hai who his sifu was, and it's always said to have been Jeong Yim.

Lun Chee is the only person alive right now that had met Yuen Hai, and he remembered him as being a true disciple of Jeong Yim.

Still, because of the CHan Family, I have learned more about Yuen Hai. For example, he was the Vice President of the Guandong Martial Arts Association.

I recall Au Hon Chun the one joseph is talking about also remembered info about yuen hai as well, and said once Yuen Hai and his students saved Fong Yuk SHu from being attacked. But He never said that Yuen Hai was a disciple of Loong Gee Choy, He told the Singapore HSK that Yuen Hai was the main student of Jeong Yim.

No one in Hung SIng has ever place Yuen Hai and Loong Gee Choy in the same breath.

Although I do like the Idea of Loong Gee Choy Being Chan Heung's 1st student, which means Yuen Hai's CLF is amongst the highest in CLF. Loong Gee Choy was the Dai Si-Hing, and Yuen Hai was his. I like that.

But, the Yuen Hai line, Singapore, and others who know my lineage cannot prove or disprove this information. So, we will have to stay with Yuen Hai being Jeong Yim's number 1 disciple.

Joseph, where is the loyalty amongst so many gung fu practitioners if they were all cross trainging with each other? I thought once you took a sifu that's it. I understand learning from si-sooks and such, but still.

Another thing, none of the gung fu that we practice from Lau Bun's branch can be traced back to Loong Gee Choy, but our gung fu down to the most basic sets are that of the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon. None of our CLF looks or begins like chan family clf. why is that?

The more i hear about Loong Gee Choy, i am more and more convinced that he and Jeong Yim are one and the same. There is just too many similarities between to two. Too many to be comfortable with.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

I am running out of time in this place, you need to go to Guangzhou to do some research instead of Futsan.

Sorry bro. got to run.

You take care.

EJ

[Green Cloud]

I would hope that most clf peeps like hskwarrior know that. This info is elementary information all sounds that are made are designed to create vibrations and help resinate energy to create power. I wasn't aware that this was news.

greencloud.net