ATTN: Mantis108 ...another translation question

[Oso]

Kevin suggested I pose this question to you on the forum so...

Would you be so kind as to translate and otherwise wax erudite upon this:


Yi Jin Jing





:D ;)

[Oso]

anyone else is free to chime in...Kevin just said to check with Robert as he knew he's have a good long explanation. :)

[mantis108]

Thank you very much for the question. Indeed, I have 2 ways to answer this. ;)

The short answer is the direct translation Yi Jin Jing - Tendon Changing Classic.

But I never really like this translation because the word Yi has more than one meanings. It would have to implies more than a simple changing form one stage to another. The use of the definition of change implies the simple process is finite which in my mind is insufficient. The word Jin (tendon) is also problematic because the Chinese anatomy perspective is very different from the western counter part. This would cause a lot of confusion IHMO. More importantly, it is not a mere transformation of musculature otherwise it's purely a physical exercise and would have nothing to do with Kung Fu which has a deep internal aspect as well. There is also the issue of Fajing to be addressed as well.

The legend of Yi Jin Jing according to Sun Lutang is that Bodhidharma created the Yi Jin Jing and the Xi Sui Jing (bone marrow cleansing classic). General Yue Fei then extended these into a 3 part training process for Xingyiquan. Basically, it is known as 3 layers of Kung Fu - Yi Gu (Bone changing), Yi Jin, and Xi Sui. As you can see Yi Jin is the intermediate layer; thus, it is very much internal in nature. However, having said that I don't think that Xingyi would necessarily do Yi Jin Jing (the form) or Xi Sui Jing per se but the very concept of it is important for Sun to to formulate and develop his "internal boxing" school material as it is part of his idea "Three Returns Nine Rotataions Is One Pose". If you asked me the "one pose" that he alluded to although he didn't specified, I believe it would be Xian Ren Gong Shou (immortal arches hands) as found in our Mantis Neigong forms as well. [sorry folks have to bring it back to mantis in order for this thread to stay in this board. ;)]

Kevin and I talked about this and I guess this is the reason why he recommended you posting this question to me as we all know that I am the long winded typist. LOL... :D

I hope this answer your quesiton.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Oso]

Thanks much!

Kevin has opened the two training sessions/seminars he's given with Yi Jin Jing and a brief intro to 3T9R and I've been asking him questions....he say's I'm starting to sound like you...which I took as a compliment. ;)


& to keep it Mantis...Kevin says that 3 Turns 9 Rotations is THE mantis chi kung.

my question to that is: Why? Who adopted it into Mantis first and why is it deemed the necessary chi gung/nei gung for mantis.

so, that should keep it here.;)

[mantis108]

Well, a big bear version of me ... Grizzly Me = Oso. That's kinda catchy. :D

Before we get into the 3 Returns Nine Rotations, here is a link to an online version of "Neigong Tu Shuo" (Internal Exercise Illustrated) written by Wang ZuYuan during Late Qing dynasty.

<<内功图说>>清.王祖源 (http://www.wushuweb.com/forum/Announce/announce.asp?BoardID=99&ID=340418&r=340432&Upflag=1&p=1&q=1)

Much of the text of this book is found in the "Tanglang Quanpu" of Cui Shou Shan. I copy and paste the Chinese text of the index for now and will try to translate that later. I am sure Kevin would recognize the index and the corresponding part in the Tanglang Quanpu.

<<内功图说>>清.王祖源

内功图说

叙
潘序
十二段锦
分行外功诀
内功
神仙起居法
易筋经十二图
却病延年法

It is of note that in Cui's Quanpu there is no illustration. Cui taught a standing Ba Duan Jin (8 pieces of Brocade) but not the seated 12 pieces of brocade as found in the Internal Exercise Illustrated. Also Cui shuffled the order of the material but essentially he took most of the text from the book. You will also find the legend of Bodhidharma creating the Yi Jin Jing and later General Yue "taught" it in the text accompanying one of the last diagrams of the book.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Oso]

great link...wish I read chinese... :(

the pics are bonus though.

I was taught a chi kung supposedly from a ninjitsu line...it was seated and IMO a pretty good nei gung. need to dig my notes out on it and get it back in to circulation. It was called 'kuji kiri' but my spelling is probably way off. It bears some resemblance to the pics in that link especially the hands behind the head and in the lower back.

[Oso]

The word Jin (tendon) is also problematic because the Chinese anatomy perspective is very different from the western counter part.

Robert,

would you care to elaborate on exactly what 'Jin' is referring to...if not 'tendon' as westerners think of it?


Thanks,

Matt

[mantis108]

Hi Oso,

I am not an expert on medical science but I will share my view based on the Chinese martial arts perspective - combative anatomy. It is personal understanding and by no means an advice to exercise accordingly.

First and foremost, muscle play an important role in work (energy producing) in western anatomy. What type of work a muscle group does or rather can produce depends on the composition of different muscle fibers that are presented (ie slow twitch, fast twitch A or B). So then you train accordingly with aerobic or anaerobic to get the desired result in the western sports model which does not necessarily view stretching as work or energy producing. Bones and tendons don't even matter that much.

Chinese model however sees things a bit differently based on Xue (blood - yin attribute) and Qi (enery - yang attribute). Xue Qi is the Liangyi (two archetypes) which is yin & yang that are comparable and compatible to the yin yang of the "universe" Heavan and earth (Tian Di). In human term, Yin Yang expressed as 2 attributes Jing (essence) and Shen (preceptual faculty) commonly known as Jing Shen (the spirit) precept.

In pugilism, Shen expresses its intelligent attributes through the 4 limbs (eyes, ears, arms, and legs); while, Jing manifests its brilliant attributes through the 4 extremities (bone-teeth, tendon-nails, boold-hair, and muscles-tongue). This is the Bagua (8 trigrams) of pugilism. In other words, pugilism is to "honor" the Heaven and Earth through exercising the Jing Shen. So you see why Jing Shen has a place in the Ba Fa (8 protocols or methods) of Pugilism. We can not exercise the bone or boold per se. But we can exercise on tendon (jin) and muscles (ji). However, ji is also relatively softer and on the service which by the way is considered similar in nature to skin processing yin attribute. This in Chinese view is not where "true" strength or power came from. It is the deeper layer and the relatively harder yang attribute, which the tendon has, that provides that "true" strength. The most crucial tendons, which are elastic sometime membrane like substances that have the property not unlike rubber band, are in the lower limbs. This is where "energy" is stored or rather resided. Surely when stretched and trained properly, they "yield" (pun intended) the most work or energy producing. No wonder in most "traditional" styles, strecthing the lower limbs is regarded as the priority. Strong kicks comes from strong tendon and it's an expression of the yang attribute. It is in this work that we see Kung Fu in its most fundamental form.

So Kung Fu is holistic and organic. It is a unification of mind, body and spirit as discussed above.

I hope this makes sense to you. :)

Warm regards

Robert

[Oso]

ok...definitely some thing to think on while working YJJ.

one question: use use the words 'precept' and 'preceptual'.

I'm trying to figure out that section of your post but my understanding of the word you are using is throwing me off.

'Precept' means, in english, "A rule or principle prescribing a particular course of action or conduct"

I have an interest in this specifically becuase of the pretty serious shoulder damage I have and have been hoping there was something to the 'tendon change' that had a direct benefit to the strength and elasticity of the tendons.

I think modern strength afficiandos would say that you can't build 'tendon strength' per se but I haven't given up on the 'old ways' and feel there is something there to be had...if only we can truly crack the metaphorical way that the Chinese language is used. :)


hmmm, BTL, might be hard to keep this truly mantis...if you feel the need to shift it, I'd rather see it on the Training Forum vs. the Internal Forum. I'd rather hear hard criticism from those guys than some hippie froo froo crapola.;)

[mantis108]

Shen is a rather difficult term to define. We have to bear in mind the holistic and organic nature of it. BTW, my apologies for not spell check carefully. Shen should be preceptive faculty and to be precise perceptual-preceptive faculty (I think I just created a new word preceptual, lol...) It is the yin yang.

Jing Shen is a precept although we can mostly have a perception of it while observing ourselves and others.

Now to keep this thread on mantis, we can simply give an example of the preparation of doing the mantis Qigong forms such as 8 pieces of Brocade, 3 Returns 9 Rotations, and 18 Luohan Gong or even the fighting forms. Fu Qi (feeding the Qi) which basically is standing in attention and meditate for a specific number of breaths. Here it is the origin, equilibrium point, precondition of Jing Shen - the percept-precept. Yes, Jing Shen is as much a percept (feeling) as a precept which is "A rule or principle prescribing a particular course of action or conduct" for standing in attention is precisely that. Again it is about yin ying of things. In fact, this goes with the whole idea of pugilism. You feel and move a certian way when you are doing a Taiji form and your feel and move a different way while doing a mantis form but it is the same Jing Shen that thread through your course of action. Through the form, the observers are brought onto another plane via the Jing Shen (spirit) that is project by the performer; hence, their Jing Shen is lifted in unision with the performaner similarly in other arts and sports. If the performer failed to do so, obviously he or she needs to practice more. So... But "in the beginning", we must properly prepare ourselves in carry out the precept (short for percept-precept) - Jing Shen.

BTW, I can relate to the shoulder injury that you have. I had a not so severed injury as yours but it's bugged me for awhile also. It took a lot of rest, some physio techniques and some Qigong techniques. Still it's not a hundred percept heal but strong enough to function relatively "normal".

Hope this clarify certian things for you.

Warm regards

Robert

[Oso]

Thanks. Lack of clarity resides with me now. ;)

still need to wrestle with the concept of percept-precept as you are explaining it but that will be a good thing to do in the exercise.


the shoulder is coming along I think. I did 30 minutes of arm drills last night for the first time since surgery. I'd done a bit here and there till I felt I'd pushed it enough. But, last night was the first time I jumped into rotation with my students again. Felt good but I was definitely rusty.

[K.Brazier]

Deep stuff guys.
Yi Jin Jing, the original name, almost definetly refers to an exercise different from the one I taught Matt.
The other, older version, is also a standing exercise with more stretching type movements.
It is more along the lines of our 18 Luohan Gung.
Either way, the points Robert is making are valid.

The form I taught Matt is called Wen(literary)Yi Jin Jing.
I have a book on this from the 30's where they talk about an older version of Wen Yi Jin Jing.
Here is a quick but poor translation;

"The hand carved edition was originally called Yi Jin Jing External Strength Training Illustrated. According to research this method is designed to train your two arms. It will increase your physical strength. The preface from the original book said,
'When you do this external strengthening kung fu you must be in a quiet place facing the east. Calm your thoughts and gather your spirit....'"


On the 'pre- /per-' confusion.
Shen, which can be translated as perceptive faculty, I usually use the term vitality.
Within the Chinese culture the word jing shen is within everyday usage to refer to someone's vitality.
Such as 'hen you jing shen'-'(you/he)very has vitality'

The body is made up of the materials of the earth or universe. The shen within it is what gives it life.
You use the shen and intellect to acquire the materials of the earth to sustain your shen.
In addition to acquiring the materials of the earth to sustain your shen you can also increase shen through proper direction and focus of the thoughts.
This is the nei dan shu or internal alchemy training. It is a type of focused meditation.

And finally, there are the physical exercises that we have been talking about which promote smooth running of the body. This aids and promotes the shen.

As for the shoulder
(BTW, I interned in Tainan city hospital Chinese medical dept.)
The treatment overview would include rehabilitory motions and herbal medicine.
From the Qi Gung shifu it includes this as well as strengthening the qi.
There would likely be a mention to limit or decrease some foods (white turnips and bananas are two examples) directly after the initial injury.

Sadly, in Western medicine there is little of herbal medicine to help this type of injury.

[mantis108]

Here's an article by Cheng Dali that discuss the origin of the terms Yi Gu, Yi Jin, Yi Shui, etc...

His conclusion is that these terms were originally from the Daoists and novelists during the Wei and Jin (approx. c. 265 CE) period. It gained popularity once again during Song dynasty in the Daoist texts again. So this article argues for the concept of Yijinjing is actually Chinese Daoist and/or novelist in origin. It is likely that Shaolin or Buddhists in China borrowed it for the creation of the book.

魏晋已有“易筋”说 程大力

魏晋已有“易筋”说
程大力

达摩被称为少林武术祖师，其根据除了《少林拳术秘诀》所云达摩创罗汉十八
手，后发展为少林五拳外，就是《易筋经》前李靖之序云达摩曾传《易筋经》、洗髓 《经》。唐豪曾对《易筋经》作了详细的考证。他在《少林武当考》中指出：此书疑是羽 “流所作，托名达摩以售其欺者耳”，断定《易筋经》为道教或修道者所作伪书。看《易
筋经》内容，几乎无一不是道教养生的传统方法。唐豪先生的结论无疑是正确的。
此后，达摩传《易筋经》和创少林拳之伪，遂成定论。这是唐豪先生于少林武术研究
最重要的贡献。

但唐豪先生又说：不但李序所云达摩适魏年月，以及得皮、得肉、得骨、得髓 “之语，由《传灯录》脱换而来。即所谓‘易筋经’、洗髓经’，亦由皮、肉、骨、髓之语， ‘
自无生有”，其口吻亦是从《传灯录》脱换而来”。查《景德传灯录》有：达摩“欲西返“天竺，乃命门人曰：时 将至矣，汝等盍各言所得乎？’时门人道副对曰：如我所见， ‘ ‘不执文字，不离文字，而为道用。’师曰；汝得吾皮。’尼总持曰：我今所解，如庆喜 ‘ ‘见阿众佛国，一见更不再见。’师曰：汝得吾肉。’道育曰：四大本空，五阴非有，而 ‘ ‘我见处，无一法可得。’师曰：汝得吾骨。’最后，慧可礼拜后依位而立，师曰：汝得 ‘ ‘吾髓’。”“易筋”、洗髓”是否就是从这里来的，似乎有些似是而非。“

其实，易筋、洗髓这样的名称，也并非从佛教著作《景德传灯录》而来，而已然
是中国传统养生与神仙术早有的术语。

有人从宋·张君房《云笈七签·延陵君修真大略》中找到有“其功至，则气化
为血，血化为精，精化为髓。一年易气，二年易血，三年易脉，四年易肉，五年易髓，
六年易筋，七年易骨，八年易发，九年易形”等语。并由之断定： 可见道家的‘易 “
筋’、易髓’理论，早在宋代即已在养生功法中广泛应用和流传了。”（李良根《〈易筋经〉源流考证》见《武魂 》#$$% 年第八期）其实，易筋”、易髓”之类的词语，出现 “ “
远比这要早得多。这里补充一条更早的资料。查《汉武帝内传》中西王母就对汉武
帝说过这么一番话：夫如欲修之，先营其气，太上真经》所谓行益易之道。益者益 “ 《
精，易者易形。能益能易，名上仙籍。不益不易，不离死厄。行益易者，谓常思灵宝
也。灵者神也，宝者精也。子但爱精握固，闭气吞液，气化血，血化精，精化液，液化
骨，行之不倦，神精充溢。为之，一年易气，二年易血，三年易脉，四年易肉，五年易
髓，六年易经，七年易骨，八年易发，九年易形。形易则变化，变化则道成，道成则位
为仙人。”《汉武帝内传》署为班固撰，视其内容则显然不可能，但隋志中已有其篇
目，所以《四库全书总目》该条云其：殆魏晋间文士所为乎。”《汉武帝内传》是部半 “
小说半房中养生的著作，至晚魏晋时已经面世，如此说来，则“易筋”、易髓”之类 “
词语，至晚魏晋时已在道教或小说家的著作中出现，因此，显然不可能是少林或佛
门创造或采用的术语。

Mantis108