The art of CLF grappling

[VStanmore]

The devastating striking techniques of CLF are quite widespread, but I wonder how many realise that CLF also has a very complete and sophisticated grappling/Cum la system.
If I am not mistaken there is even a whole for containing the cum la/grappling techniques of CLF called something like 18 (?) yum yerng noi ngoi lim sou (18 yin and yang internal and external sticky (?) hands).

I think the form listed in this article:
http://www.clfsd.com/articles.html#system

."oi lem bic da soy sou ying yang kung"(External yin yang sticky exercise for close fighting and hand breaking)

I think this form also fits the grappling category.

If you have the vcd set of Sifu Chen Yong fa, in one of the discs where he was interviewed you can see the devastating speed and skill of his Choy Lee Fut cum la/ grappling sau faat.

There should be a two man grappling form in the clf system.

Anyone with more knowledge on these forms, please elaborate.

[brothernumber9]

There is a CLF school or two in FL that has incorporated gound fighting/submission wrestling into their curriculum.

[wiz cool c]

How is the CLF grappling practiced? Is there a free style method within CLF? Do you work on the techneques one at a time?

[VStanmore]

How is the CLF grappling practiced? Is there a free style method within CLF? Do you work on the techneques one at a time?

Like all practical skill, kung fu requires hands-on practice for effective learning and mastery. This is even more particularly so for grappling/cum la techniques, and so you would expect the training method to at some stage encompass partner work in addition to self-training.

Certainly you can list joint-locking techniques as technique 1, #2, etc etc in response to grab or hold 4, 5 etc etc however the effectiveness of this method alone is questionable.

Choy Lee Fut's designer/s was very clever in the construction of the system.Initially, single techniques can be demonstrated and isolated for drill practice on a co-operating partner ----the aim is not to injure him or her but to familiarise oneself with the techqnique and its subtleties, get a hands-on feeling with applying on another person. It makes good sense that if you can't apply it with speed, accuracy and precision without thinking on the how's of the technique on a co-operative opponent, then how can you hope to apply it on a resisting opponent. The aim is to learn it so well that is almost like "second nature".

There is an entire form teaching the series of grappling techniques in CLF, and some techniques are also contained in other advanced hand forms. Choy Lee fut does not confine grappling to only grappling, that is, the grappling techniques are also used in conjunction and in combination with effective striking techniques, resulting in a devastating arsenal of combat tools.
If I am not mistaken,there should be a two-man form of grappling techniques as well.
No one will just stand there and let you grapple them, sometimes you have to use striking combinations and bridge, and have the feeling and sensitivity to feel the force of the opponent and instinctively apply the appropriate technique, and if the opponent successfully counters or escapes, to have the skill and sensitivity to change with the opponent effectively to overcome him or her.
If you have the vcd set of Sifu Chen Yong Fa, have a look at the section where he is teaching the kei lun sau faat or unicorn hands. In it, there are drills where you apply grappling/cumla on the partner, the partner goes with the force and counter grapples you, you of course go with his force and evade to counter grapple him and so it goes on, teaching you to develop a feeling for the techniques and counter techniques, training for sensitivity and familiarity, training technique as well as skill.

Separate isolated techniques are good for drilling, and form is good for remembering and practicing, and in fact I think the appearance of the grappling in other hand forms says something about strategically effective times or moments in other technique combinations to apply cum la.

If you experience the higher level forms of CLF, I think you may be amazed how well built the combinations are, and if you analyse them you may discover very clever strategy/tactics/moments for application.

I encourage those who know the grappling forms to share their views.

[Fu-Pow]

There is a CLF school or two in FL that has incorporated gound fighting/submission wrestling into their curriculum.

I think he's talking about stand-up grappling...ie kam na/chin na.

[brothernumber9]

no, I'm talking about fighting on the ground, and not necessarily to get right back up to the feet. I just saw their website a few weeks ago and was pleasantly surprised.

[Fu-Pow]

no, I'm talking about fighting on the ground, and not necessarily to get right back up to the feet. I just saw their website a few weeks ago and was pleasantly surprised.

I realize what you are talking about....I'm just saying that the "grappling" that he referred to at the beginning of the thread is stand up grappling, not ground fighting. If CLF traditionally has groundfighting that would be news to me.

Props to that school though for being able to incorporate it. I'd personally like to learn few ground fighting escapes just so I can get back up on my feet if I need to.

FP

[brothernumber9]

I see,

the "he" was for Vstanmore.

My mistake.

[VStanmore]

Choy Lee Fut does have "take downs" in the form of throws, sweeps and tripping ,and cum la.A take down does not have to be in the form of a "shoot" to be a "take-down". The method can be variable, but if it delivers the goods then it is a take-down! CLF is a fighting system and not a sports competition so you would likely see more emphasis on a quick incapacitation of the opponent, and my opinion is in actual serious application the cum la with the correct ging and technical details can easily be converted to a "break" rather than a "submission" for the "tap". And the cum la locks can easily be converted to a "throw".

Choy Lee Fut is such a deep system it can cater for the fighting preferences of many different people, personalities and body types.
Perhaps the hand techniques of CLF are more widely known and preferred by its practitioners than the other aspects like kicking and cum la. But Chan Wan Hon, son of the 3rd keeper of CLF, Chan Yiu Chi, was known for his kicking prowess. He was a fighter and quick to accept a challenge match, and many a challenger fell from his kicking attacks. The Kow tan take-down was also one of his favourites.

Another elder of CLF, sil lau gau was suppose to be devastating with the peck choi technique. It particularly suited him and he has been referred to by some as the king of peck choys.

The cultural revolution was a bad time for chinese kung fu. The training had to go into more hidden, and workers spent long hours of the day at work. So training with forms were more restricted. But Chan Wan Hon taught his students the see lo sarn sau training, which is a series of extremely effective combinations of bagua hands/ fighting techniques from the choy lee fut arsenal and produced very good fighters. If I'm not mistaken, the kow tan take down can be found in the first of the series of the see lo sarn sau.

There is a lot of treasure in the choy lee fut system, but of course the ignorant might make things up and ramble ramble.

What do you think of these "solutions"?

"if you don't have it, make it up"??

"fake it........until you make it"??

:D

[extrajoseph]

Chen Yong-Fa's father Chan Wan Hong also thought there were too many forms in CLF, so he attempted to distill the essence into the see lo sarn sou and not just because of the cultural revolution when they have to train in a tight spaces and hidden from view. It was indeed an extremely hard time for the family.

Look carefully and you will see the nei lim sou as well as the take downs in the se lo.

Pity no one teaches this now.

[VStanmore]

Hi EJ,
Thanks for the info. I think had Chan wan hon gotten his project off the ground and distilled the essence of all the fist forms into 3 sets, we would have another treasure for a "crash-course" in the essence of the art of Choy Lee Fut kung fu!

[Fu-Pow]

see lo sarn sou

Translation?

[VStanmore]

So I am pretty good with my CLF (i mean using it in real life) and i was never taught the dummy set and put one together that was one-effective-two-looked just as good, or even better than what Koon Pak did then what is the problem?

.

I don't consider you at the same level as Chan Heung or Chan Koon Pak in terms of kung fu.

Chan Heung spent more than 20 yrs gathering and refining his skills from 3 teachers. And add to that the INHERITANCE OF SHAOLIN KUNG FU from shaolin monk Choy Fook. The complexities of the wooden dummies, depth of the system, and comprehensiveness of the style of Choy lee Fut founded by Chan Heung. Do you think you can easily find a man off the streets who thinks he is a good brawler and expect something like Chan Heung's CLF to be MADE UP in ONE GENERATION?? (Like you think you can do...make up this and that equal or better than koon pak's! :eek: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: )

So are you admitting you are MAKING UP THINGS (wooden dummy??) now because your lineage does not have it?? So are you MAKING UP JONGS for each or almost each of your hand sets? Before you go about MAKING THINGS UP, do you understand the specific training philosophy/principles and essence of each of the different sophisticated CLF wodden dummies??


http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41441&page=10

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41429&page=7

Are you now going to MAKE UP SOME ANIMAL FORMS FOR YOUR LINEAGE?? But what if the animal forms were inherited and developed for some generations from as eartly as the shaolin temple, do you still think you can MAKE UP SOMETHING better of 'just as good'??

You can make up things as you want, you can make up jong for each hand set but don't cheat people! Tell them plainly its not a traditional knowledge. Tell them you just made it up. The karate guys can also make up a jong for each of their kata, and teach it to their black belts. But they shouldn't cheat people and tell them they have traditional jongs for kata passed down from Gichin Funakoshi!

And before you go about MAKING THINGS UP, do you understand the specific training philosophy/principles and essence of each of the different sophisticated CLF wodden dummies??

What do you think about these "solutions"?

"If you don't have it, make it up"??

"Fake it......until you make it"?? :rolleyes: :D :D

[VStanmore]

So I am pretty good with my CLF (i mean using it in real life) and i was never taught the dummy set and put one together that was one-effective-two-looked just as good, or even better than what Koon Pak did then what is the problem?

.

I don't consider you at the same level as Chan Heung or Chan Koon Pak in terms of kung fu.

Chan Heung spent more than 20 yrs gathering and refining his skills from 3 teachers. And add to that the INHERITANCE OF SHAOLIN KUNG FU from shaolin monk Choy Fook. The complexities of the wooden dummies, depth of the system, and comprehensiveness of the style of Choy lee Fut founded by Chan Heung. Do you think you can easily find a man off the streets who thinks he is a good brawler and expect something like Chan Heung's CLF to be MADE UP in ONE GENERATION?? (Like you think you can do...make up this and that equal or better than koon pak's! :eek: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: )

So are you admitting you are MAKING UP THINGS (wooden dummy??) now because your lineage does not have it?? So are you MAKING UP JONGS for each or almost each of your hand sets? Before you go about MAKING THINGS UP, do you understand the specific training philosophy/principles and essence of each of the different sophisticated CLF wodden dummies??


http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41441&page=10

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41429&page=7

Are you now going to MAKE UP SOME ANIMAL FORMS FOR YOUR LINEAGE?? But what if the animal forms were inherited and developed for some generations from as eartly as the shaolin temple, do you still think you can MAKE UP SOMETHING better of 'just as good'??

You can make up things as you want, you can make up jong for each hand set but don't cheat people! Tell them plainly its not a traditional knowledge. Tell them you just made it up. The karate guys can also make up a jong for each of their kata, and teach it to their black belts. But they shouldn't cheat people and tell them they have traditional jongs for kata passed down from Gichin Funakoshi!

And before you go about MAKING THINGS UP, do you understand the specific training philosophy/principles and essence of each of the different sophisticated CLF wodden dummies??

What do you think about these "solutions"?

"If you don't have it, make it up"??

"Fake it......until you make it"?? :rolleyes: :D :D

[VStanmore]

Hey EJ!

Why go learn the traditional kung fu style called Choy Lee Fut?? If I can get you the market, can you MAKE UP a gorilla form for the customers who would like such a form, or even a gorilla style for those who would like to go further with gorilla?? :D :D

[hskwarrior]

and he doesn't realize i know he's kenny poop.

[CLFNole]

I would agree with you there. His constant badgering of you was a trademark before..

[extrajoseph]

Let's be fair, I don't think he is the only one who is constantly badgering and I am not referring to anyone in particular.

Lets all stop and go to some practice.

OK?

[Infrazael]

Choy Lee Fut does have "take downs" in the form of throws, sweeps and tripping ,and cum la.A take down does not have to be in the form of a "shoot" to be a "take-down". The method can be variable, but if it delivers the goods then it is a take-down! CLF is a fighting system and not a sports competition so you would likely see more emphasis on a quick incapacitation of the opponent, and my opinion is in actual serious application the cum la with the correct ging and technical details can easily be converted to a "break" rather than a "submission" for the "tap". And the cum la locks can easily be converted to a "throw".





You would be surprised to how easy a "submission" can produce something called a "broken joint."

It's called applying pressure.

Fighting is fighting is fighting. Sport or non-sport, gloved or bare knuckle. Fighting is fighting.

If you can fight, you can fight.

If you can't, then you can't.

In my experience "sport" and "competition" produces far more fighters than non-sport ones. The reason? Training methodology. CLF is so ****ing badass if everyone would simply train with 100% aliveness and full intent . . . . . . . .

[VStanmore]

Applying pressure is more for control.

There is better method for executing a break.

[Mano Mano]

You would be surprised to how easy a "submission" can produce something called a "broken joint."

It's called applying pressure.

Fighting is fighting is fighting. Sport or non-sport, gloved or bare knuckle. Fighting is fighting.

If you can fight, you can fight.

If you can't, then you can't.

In my experience "sport" and "competition" produces far more fighters than non-sport ones. The reason? Training methodology. CLF is so ****ing badass if everyone would simply train with 100% aliveness and full intent . . . . . . . .
I coundn't agree more

If we put a person from all branches in together to fight who would win? Great Sage, Heroic Victory, Fut San Hung Sing & Bak Sing.
The winner would be the person who was the best fighter irrespective of branch.

[hskwarrior]

that would be such a great fight though.

because only we know how aggressive CLF can be.

and the toughest person to fight is your own classmates or others from your style because we already know how to deal with what we do.

so mano mano, you are completely correct.

when it comes to fighting, i don't see lineage. I only see CLF. I don't box, MMA, or anything else. I just do CLF.

[Mano Mano]

that would be such a great fight though.
I think it would be one of greatest learning opportunities


because only we know how aggressive CLF can be.
Aggressive yet at times with the deceptive appearance of passivity


and the toughest person to fight is your own classmates or others from
your style because we already know how to deal with what we do. you got that right.

[hskwarrior]

i like the pacivity part.

thats part of my phyical appearance. i look just some overweight guy and people usually don't like to bother with me.

my sifu also likes it when others mistake him as some ordinary old man.

[VStanmore]

You would be surprised to how easy a "submission" can produce something called a "broken joint."

It's called applying pressure.

Fighting is fighting is fighting. Sport or non-sport, gloved or bare knuckle. Fighting is fighting.

If you can fight, you can fight.

If you can't, then you can't.

In my experience "sport" and "competition" produces far more fighters than non-sport ones. The reason? Training methodology. CLF is so ****ing badass if everyone would simply train with 100% aliveness and full intent . . . . . . . .

Not all training should be done if the form of partner work. Training cum la joint locks with a partner can be good for developing feeling and sensitivity, as well as perfecting technical details. But breaks can also be practiced for example on the ching jong, where there is tough resilience for executing more power, and if your break shatters the wooden arm then imagine what will happen with the opponent's joint when applied seriously!
Depending how you view grappling and cum la, the art of cum la does benefit from detailed knowledge of human anatomy and here it may overlap with that of accupressure point striking. Knowing vulnerable and weak accupressure points, and being able to locate them with speed, precision and accuracy on an opponent, it will greatly increase the effectiveness of the "locking" for "control" even against a large and physically stronger opponent.
It is obviously impractical to practice accupressure point striking on the opponent with power, so what to do?
The comprehensiveness of the system of Choy Lee Fut already has a solution.....
There is the tung yun jong or copper man dummy for training the accupressure point striking, and it is, if I'm not mistaken, one of the 18 jongs of Choy Lee Fut.

When you think about it, the oi lim bic da soy sou yum yeung kung note the term "soy sou" or hand breaking. It is my opinion that the design intent of kum la is more inclined towards a "break" hence "hand breaking" and not to pressuring for a "tap" although you may do it that way.

The fan form called soy sou sihn, or hand breaking fan also has accupressure point striking. 18 point strikes to be specific. And there are the 2 fan wooden dummies for training as well.

So you can see how comprehensive and deep the style is.

Likely only the ignorant would think because he thinks hes a good brawler he can MAKE UP something better or equal to the system of Chan Heung's Choy Lee Fut.

:D

[Infrazael]

Hehe . . . . .

Nothing wrong with cross training either. Learn CLF, learn submissions, learn everything you can.

All the old masters cross trained . . . Chan Heung, Jeong Yim, everyone.

We should probably do the same too.

And yes an all-out CLF tourney?

Why can't we organize something? The Kyokushin boys already do it. Muay Thai has fights all the time.

Why can't we have a CLF tournament, some sort of annual thing? That would be awesome.

[CLFNole]

Are the pressure point dummies & fan dummies in existence or just pictures in the kuen po? I was wondering since we claim CLF has 18 dummies but if many don't exist do we really have 18 sets?

[hskwarrior]

ha,

without proof that chan Heung created all the jongs, you cannot call it CLF jongs.

How do you know that the idea of Jong's didn't come from the training aids of Shaolin.

You can't put everything under Chan Heung. Joseph said that Chan branch has a kuen po for throwing rocks. But the concept of throwing rocks is millions of years old.

So how can chan Heung create and re-invent rock throwing if it already existed?
wasn't he doing exactly what Kenny poop is saying that I or others are doing when they don't practice Chan Heung Choy Lee Fut?

If Chan Heung created Spear forms why did he if they already existed? I'm sure shaolin taught spear forms.

wing Chung and other systems have their own jongs. So are you saying that these styles are stealing from chan heung? What about the Wing CHun Dummy? it looks just like the CLF one just inverted.

So when you act like no one but Chan Heung can put together a form for the Jong, a spear form, a buddha Palm form, or anything else you Kennypoop are full of sheet.

Gung Fu existed long before Chan Heung was alive. Weapons existed long before Chan Heung. The staff, the spear, the tiger forks, the tiger hooks, and so on. So if they already existed, kenny are you saying that that your own lineage holder Chan Heung was wrong for taking something that already existed and made it his own?

So basically what Chan Heung did was take weapons and things that already existed and forgred it into his own concoction. Put a twist on it that can be traced back to the CLF style.

And you say anyone is wrong for doing the very same thing Chan Heung was doing?!

why?

How stupid can you get?

[VStanmore]

Not all training should be done if the form of partner work. Training cum la joint locks with a partner can be good for developing feeling and sensitivity, as well as perfecting technical details. But breaks can also be practiced for example on the ching jong, where there is tough resilience for executing more power, and if your break shatters the wooden arm then imagine what will happen with the opponent's joint when applied seriously!
Depending how you view grappling and cum la, the art of cum la does benefit from detailed knowledge of human anatomy and here it may overlap with that of accupressure point striking. Knowing vulnerable and weak accupressure points, and being able to locate them with speed, precision and accuracy on an opponent, it will greatly increase the effectiveness of the "locking" for "control" even against a large and physically stronger opponent.
It is obviously impractical to practice accupressure point striking on the opponent with power, so what to do?
The comprehensiveness of the system of Choy Lee Fut already has a solution.....
There is the tung yun jong or copper man dummy for training the accupressure point striking, and it is, if I'm not mistaken, one of the 18 jongs of Choy Lee Fut.

When you think about it, the oi lim bic da soy sou yum yeung kung note the term "soy sou" or hand breaking. It is my opinion that the design intent of kum la is more inclined towards a "break" hence "hand breaking" and not to pressuring for a "tap" although you may do it that way.

The fan form called soy sou sihn, or hand breaking fan also has accupressure point striking. 18 point strikes to be specific. And there are the 2 fan wooden dummies for training as well.

So you can see how comprehensive and deep the style is.

Likely only the ignorant would think because he thinks hes a good brawler he can MAKE UP something better or equal to the system of Chan Heung's Choy Lee Fut.

:D
For those interested, I took this selection from the CLF fan article. It has been available online for some time.

At a higher level of training, the steel fan is used with a copper-man dummy to improve a student’s acupressure point striking techniques. The copper-man dummy is constructed in such a way that when the correct acupressure point is hit, it makes a distinct clicking noise. The idea is to strike as many points as accurately as possible in the shortest time. The student has to strike points with force and accuracy, otherwise the clicking sound will not be heard clearly.

Our teacher often said;

“It is easy to strike the points but difficult to locate the points.”

To do “dim-mak” well, the student has to study the meridian charts, to know its locations by heart and what damage each one can cause. The surface area of an acupressure point is very small, 2-3 mm at the most, so accuracy is very important, especially when you try to hit a fast moving target.

The trick is to deliver the strike with “ging” (penetrating force), while maintaining speed and accuracy. In the Choy Lee Fut manual for steel fan dim-mak it is stated that when using the fan;



“the mind must be coupled with the heart,

the heart with the strength,

the strength with the qi,

the qi with the fan,

the fan with the eyes, and

skill with dexterity”.

Choy Lee Fut also has many couplets that guide the practitioner's training and/or application of the art.

Anyone heard of this kuet? : "Be still like a mountain,....move swiftly like a frightened rabbit."
Another one "lian ho sou but yue lian ho jou" telling the CLF practitioner the importance of footwork in the training of CLF kung fu.

And of course there is the sup baat ji kuet or 18 characters formula which should be the foundation of the structure of CLF in terms of theory. Combine it with practice, and I think the results will be remarkable!

[SevenStar]

Choy Lee Fut does have "take downs" in the form of throws, sweeps and tripping ,and cum la.A take down does not have to be in the form of a "shoot" to be a "take-down". The method can be variable, but if it delivers the goods then it is a take-down!

Wresting and judo both have several takedowns. the double leg is just a very efficient one, and thus preferred by many wrestlers.


CLF is a fighting system and not a sports competition so you would likely see more emphasis on a quick incapacitation of the opponent, and my opinion is in actual serious application the cum la with the correct ging and technical details can easily be converted to a "break" rather than a "submission" for the "tap". And the cum la locks can easily be converted to a "throw".

Do you REALLY think that a lock from a grappler can't easily be converted to a break?? jing or not, it's not hard at all. Same with choking. I've choked several people unconscious; there is nothing unique to CLF that allows this.


Choy Lee Fut is such a deep system it can cater for the fighting preferences of many different people, personalities and body types.

ANY art worth its salt will do this.

[Infrazael]

Wresting and judo both have several takedowns. the double leg is just a very efficient one, and thus preferred by many wrestlers.



Do you REALLY think that a lock from a grappler can't easily be converted to a break?? jing or not, it's not hard at all. Same with choking. I've choked several people unconscious; there is nothing unique to CLF that allows this.



ANY art worth its salt will do this.

Excatly what I've been thinking.

Why do so many CMA people think their "grappling" is automatically superior to submission fighting? BJJ?

[Fu-Pow]

Wresting and judo both have several takedowns. the double leg is just a very efficient one, and thus preferred by many wrestlers.



Do you REALLY think that a lock from a grappler can't easily be converted to a break?? jing or not, it's not hard at all. Same with choking. I've choked several people unconscious; there is nothing unique to CLF that allows this.



ANY art worth its salt will do this.

CMA Hater #6 has arrived.

[Infrazael]

CMA Hater #6 has arrived.

Well I think he brought up some good points.

Yes we have Qinna and locks in CLF. Yes they are very good and can be extremely brutal.

That doesn't mean we're any better at them than other people . . . . . . .

And armbars and kimuras are just as devastating submissions and breaks as any wrist lock from standing.

[SevenStar]

Applying pressure is more for control.

There is better method for executing a break.

I agree with that....that' something any grappler could teach you.

[SevenStar]

CMA Hater #6 has arrived.


I prefer to be thought of as BS hater #1. I actually love CMA. I wish I could train shuai chiao more often. But BS is BS, regardless of style. There just seems to be more of it lingering here...

[SevenStar]

Excatly what I've been thinking.

Why do so many CMA people think their "grappling" is automatically superior to submission fighting? BJJ?


because for some reason they can't get it through their skull that "submission" doesn't mean that you can break with it. They just assume the only use bjj locks have is to make someone tap out.

[Fu-Pow]

Why do so many CMA people think their "grappling" is automatically superior to submission fighting? BJJ?

Because we do it on our feet.

[SevenStar]

Because we do it on our feet.


1. we do too.

2. you have more degrees of freedom on your feet from most joint locks. They are easier to escape.

3. on the ground, it's easier to control you, which makes it easier to obtain the lock.

[Fu-Pow]

1. we do too.

Who is we? Too general for me to respond.



2. you have more degrees of freedom on your feet from most joint locks. They are easier to escape.

Agree with first statement. Second statement, it depends on who is doing the locking and to whom.




3. on the ground, it's easier to control you, which makes it easier to obtain the lock.

Not sure. The ground may have some advantages but some disadvantages also. Depends on the context.

The specialty of CMA is stand-up grappling not on the ground. Different strategies, training, methods and conditioning are involved in making it effective.

There is not really a way to "tap" standing up so you won't be seeing this any kind of competition format anytime soon.

[SevenStar]

Who is we? Too general for me to respond.

people who grapple, but specifically bjj. some schools do go over bjj for self defense - particularly gracie schools. it focuses on throws and standing locks. Personally, I'd rather lock someone on the ground, however I do use restraints during standup, in particular, chokes.




Agree with first statement. Second statement, it depends on who is doing the locking and to whom.

yeah, I can agree with that.



There is not really a way to "tap" standing up so you won't be seeing this any kind of competition format anytime soon.

you can tap the person with your feet, or they could do it verbally, i'd think.

[Green Cloud]

I'm not sure if it's part of CLF but my sifu taught us an extensive amount of grappling. He called it Sit Gat (Mongolian Wrestling) There is also a significant about of throwing, joint locking ( kam Na) and floor fighting.

I mean common how many forms are in CLF ??? Do you guys think all we do is sao gwa cup chop been. Once again this is the reason why CMA gets a bad wrap, because most practisioners just don't know their SHHITE.

greencloud.net

[Green Cloud]

Yo what up Seven, listen up holmes as far as getting someone to tap out while standing that's easy and done often. How many time have you seen the hanging arm bar in the UFC.

My favorite are choke holds those are even easier to do standing up rather on the floor. If you understood some of the more classical Jiu Jitsu styles you would know that.

greencloud.net

[Ben Gash]

As I've always maintained, all of the techniques for ground fighting are contained within CLF's forms, you just have to develop the necessary attributes. Personally I just see it as a natural extension of sticky hands. If you listen to someone like Rickson Gracie, or any highly technical grappler, they'll tell you that sensitivity is the key to success on the ground, and indeed they do several drills which are similar to sticky hands/pushing hands. When you need to control your opponent then you need to be fully aware of how they're moving. However, that's how I teach standup fighting!
I teach my guys tons of Cum Na and standing wrestling, and as time goes on I introduce more ground skills, and I always try to instill ground awareness from day one ("don't do the throw that way because you'll be at a disadvantage on the ground" etc). It's a myth that the wrestling in CLF is unsophisticated, it's a style that emphasises leg movement and waist turning, that's a recipe for good wrestling.Many times I've had my heart in my mouth when demonstrating with students as a small movement has produced a huge result and they've slammed into the floor :o
I readily acknowledge that there is a whole host of kung fu schools that don't do anything like this, and I think one of the big problems is that many people view skills in isolation. They'll kick, then they'll punch, then they'll grapple. Kung Fu as it was conceived should be an integrated fighting system, where you use the most appropriate technique for the situation, and flow seamlessly from kicking, to punching, to grappling, to punching, to grappling, to kicking and so on.
To borrow a line from coach Ross "position is everything, the rest is just the gravy."

[SevenStar]

Yo what up Seven, listen up holmes as far as getting someone to tap out while standing that's easy and done often. How many time have you seen the hanging arm bar in the UFC.

My favorite are choke holds those are even easier to do standing up rather on the floor. If you understood some of the more classical Jiu Jitsu styles you would know that.

greencloud.net


where did I say you can't tap someone standing? I think you misread my reply to fu pow.

However, I did say standing locks are easier to escape. rarely a saturday night goes by that I don't choke someone at my job - I'm very well aware of standing chokes and locks.

[SevenStar]

As I've always maintained, all of the techniques for ground fighting are contained within CLF's forms, you just have to develop the necessary attributes. Personally I just see it as a natural extension of sticky hands. If you listen to someone like Rickson Gracie, or any highly technical grappler, they'll tell you that sensitivity is the key to success on the ground, and indeed they do several drills which are similar to sticky hands/pushing hands. When you need to control your opponent then you need to be fully aware of how they're moving. However, that's how I teach standup fighting!
I teach my guys tons of Cum Na and standing wrestling, and as time goes on I introduce more ground skills, and I always try to instill ground awareness from day one ("don't do the throw that way because you'll be at a disadvantage on the ground" etc). It's a myth that the wrestling in CLF is unsophisticated, it's a style that emphasises leg movement and waist turning, that's a recipe for good wrestling.Many times I've had my heart in my mouth when demonstrating with students as a small movement has produced a huge result and they've slammed into the floor :o
I readily acknowledge that there is a whole host of kung fu schools that don't do anything like this, and I think one of the big problems is that many people view skills in isolation. They'll kick, then they'll punch, then they'll grapple. Kung Fu as it was conceived should be an integrated fighting system, where you use the most appropriate technique for the situation, and flow seamlessly from kicking, to punching, to grappling, to punching, to grappling, to kicking and so on.
To borrow a line from coach Ross "position is everything, the rest is just the gravy."

I don't entirely disagree with this. But IMO, there is no need to reinvent the wheel. most chin na doesn't translate directly to the ground - adjustments must be made. while you are reinventing, you could be applying. When I was training longfist, we did this. they tried to translate chin na to the ground and I relied on my judo and also some bjj (before I started formally training bjj) that my friend and I picked up from a copy of the fighter's notebook that he bought online. We schooled everyone on a regular basis. my friend even triangle choked the sifu a number of times. He was great at standup, but it so happened that groundwork wasn't his cup of tea. Trying to translate chin na to the ground didn't work the way they thought it would.

[Ben Gash]

No real need to reinvent anything. Think about doing a salute in cat stance. Now think about doing it lying on your back, perpendicular to your opponent while holding onto their wrist. See where I'm going? All the standard groundfighting holds are contained in the forms of most Chinese systems, it's just that most people don't train it that way.

[Water Dragon]

That hasn't been my experience. I love using wristlocks on the ground. I learned all my wristlocks from Tai Chi's push hands. There's a cretain way that you use wrist locks on the ground, and you need BJJ to do it. Wrist locks work great off of other subs, but you need to immobilize the elbow before you go for the wrist. If you don't immobilize the elbow, the other guy will just worm or power his way out of it. Sorry, that's just the reality I've experienced. If you can't tap someone with a basic armlock or americana, you'll never get the wrist.

[Green Cloud]

hey Seven * can I get a job at that bar sound like fun:D

[Knifefighter]

When it comes to grappling, if you are not sparring with it against resisting partners, it is a complete waste of time. If it is only in your forms and you are not doing the above, it is the same as not having it in the forms in the first place as far as usefullness goes.

[Ben Gash]

So, the same as any other aspect of fighting then :rolleyes:

[SevenStar]

No real need to reinvent anything. Think about doing a salute in cat stance. Now think about doing it lying on your back, perpendicular to your opponent while holding onto their wrist. See where I'm going? All the standard groundfighting holds are contained in the forms of most Chinese systems, it's just that most people don't train it that way.


that won't directly translate to the ground, you have to grab the arm properly, remember to pull back and apply pressure with the hips, know how to keep the opponent immobile... it doesn't direclty transfer, even though you may be able to find a similar standing technique. the modification that needs to be made is the reinvention I'm referring to.

[Ben Gash]

How's that re-invention? :confused: That's just common sense.

[SevenStar]

hey Seven * can I get a job at that bar sound like fun:D

:D you'd probably love it. there are plenty of knuckleheads here, so come on down. this past saturday, my buddy choked someone unconscious, as we were fighting him and his two brothers. We aren't allowed to strike unless it's considered a level 4 or 5 - multiple attackers or weapons, so we use a lot of choking, holds and locks.

[Water Dragon]

How's that re-invention? :confused: That's just common sense.

Naw, not really. Imagine if all I've ever done is BJJ, just ground work. I come into your school and want to play with your guys; not train, just play. I figure that I already know how to do armbars, shoulder locks, wrist locks, chokes, all I need to do is apply that to stand up and I'll be OK. Besides, I read a couple Chinese chin na books, so I have an idea of what's going on.

How do you think that situation's gonna turn out? I think your guys would wipe up the floor with me.

Just like CMA, there are a huge amount of nuances in groundwork that are highly specific to groundwork.


No real need to reinvent anything. Think about doing a salute in cat stance. Now think about doing it lying on your back, perpendicular to your opponent while holding onto their wrist. See where I'm going? All the standard groundfighting holds are contained in the forms of most Chinese systems, it's just that most people don't train it that way.

Let me use this as an example. We're talking about a basic armbar, or maybe a wristlock. To make the armbar work, you want to use your leg push his face away from you and then trap his head under your thigh. If he can't point his face toward you, he can't escape.

You also want to pin your knees together to trap the elbow. Most people tend to cross their feet which makes the armbar real loose. You want your thighs tight together so he can't wriggle out.

When you lay back and thrust out your hip, you also want to stretch your head backward. You're also going to hold his hand, thumb up, tight to your chest. You're using both maximum leverage and stretching his arm out at the same time. This puts a lot of pressure on the elbow.

You're not going to learn those nuances or how to tpply them without spending some those nuances. We haven't even delved into principle yet.

What you can use from CMA is something like this. Let's say you go for the armbar and screw up. He turns his thumb down to stop the armbar. His pinky is now up, and his arm is pretty much trapped, so do a standard 'S' lock on him to get the tap.

[Green Cloud]

:D you'd probably love it. there are plenty of knuckleheads here, so come on down. this past saturday, my buddy choked someone unconscious, as we were fighting him and his two brothers. We aren't allowed to strike unless it's considered a level 4 or 5 - multiple attackers or weapons, so we use a lot of choking, holds and locks.


Sounds like fun if your bar was in the local tri state area I would definately pay you guys a visit:)

[Ben Gash]

Let me use this as an example. We're talking about a basic armbar, or maybe a wristlock. To make the armbar work, you want to use your leg push his face away from you and then trap his head under your thigh. If he can't point his face toward you, he can't escape.

You also want to pin your knees together to trap the elbow. Most people tend to cross their feet which makes the armbar real loose. You want your thighs tight together so he can't wriggle out.

When you lay back and thrust out your hip, you also want to stretch your head backward. You're also going to hold his hand, thumb up, tight to your chest. You're using both maximum leverage and stretching his arm out at the same time. This puts a lot of pressure on the elbow.


Yes, but I already know all that :confused: Obviously the best way to develop your groundwork is to workout with ground guys. My point was that just because you're doing what would generally be considered a Ju Jitsu armbar doesn't mean you're not also doing classical CMA.

[SevenStar]

How's that re-invention? :confused: That's just common sense.


no, really it's not. If it were, then everyone who trained chin na would know how to grapple. As we all know that is definitely not the case. there are more degrees of movement on the ground than there are standing. You can escape different ways, hence the stronger need for positioning and immobilization.

[SevenStar]

Yes, but I already know all that :confused: Obviously the best way to develop your groundwork is to workout with ground guys. My point was that just because you're doing what would generally be considered a Ju Jitsu armbar doesn't mean you're not also doing classical CMA.


sticking by that statement, than anyone who does a chin na lock is also doing bjj...

Obviously, the two are not the same. If I am doing a bjj armbar, that's what it is. it's NOT cma, although they may share similarities. when I punch, am I throwing a right cross or a reverse punch? when I throw a front kick with the lead leg, is it a bençao, a teep or a front thrust kick?

if I am doing a bjj / judo arm bar, what you are doing standing is not the same, though is may be similar.

[TenTigers]

from what I've seen of Joi Bot Sien,(real JBS, not wu-shu or some of the made up crap that's out there) there is an emphasis on takedowns,suplexes,leg takedowns, ground fighting, etc. I have not seen CLF's Joi Bot Sien, other than Lei Siu-Hung's, but I have seen other versions from different systems. (Lama Has Joi Bot Sien as well. I'm wondering if that is where the section in Fu-Hok came from?)
Has anyone seen Doc Fai-Wong's Joi Bot Sien? What is the origin of that set? If it is from Wong Gong, where did he get it from?
But I digress...do you agree that JBS is full of groundfighting? It seems to me that all the ne-waza/bjj stuff has been in CMA for quite some time, we simply have to take another look at the forms we misunderstood as being "too showy" and see their underlying priciples. There might also be a reason why JBS is taught later in the curriculum, saving specific techniques to the more deserving, trusted students.

[Ben Gash]

We appear to be talking at cross purposes sevenstar. I'm not saying what you think I'm saying. I agree with most of what you say.

[TenTigers]

yeah-that can't be helped. Hey-if DFW created his JBS-more power to him, as it seems to be a very intensive form complete with throws, jointlocks,dim-mak as well as the healing required for the dim-mak strikes (36 in all) he states that the student must learn all the 36 points and the herbal formulas to heal the strikes before learning the set. Look, Wong Fei0Hung took his father's Hung Kuen, added some Hop-Ga from Wong Yun-Lum, some other stuff from Leung Guan,a bit of this a dab of that and created what we call Hung-ga. That was only 3-4 generations ago. Cheung Lai-Chuen created Bak Mei-two generations ago. Some of the sets in many Hung schools are very recent. Who's to say? If it's a good set, has real value, then fine. The trouble arises when someone creates a set and claims otherwise. Heck, if you think it's so good, then own up to it and be proud of your accomplishment.
But...I would not like to see this thread hijacked too much, so if anyone has any info on JBS as far as legitimate groundfighting-speak up

[Green Cloud]

Your absolutely right Rick, Joy bat sin has lots of sit gat tech. and groung fighting. Both Lama and choy lee fut.

[Ben Gash]

Why are you having this bizzarre argument? I can assure you that DFW's drunken forms (Joi Bot Sin Kuen and Joi Lohan Kuen) are not made up :rolleyes: , and you don't believe it either, you're just having a nuts philosophical debate :rolleyes:

[TenTigers]

yes, Ben it got sidetracked. Basically what I was saying is that it seems to be an excellent form, I was interested in where it came from. However, I also stated that even if DFW created it himself, it would only be to his credit. I in no way was saying anything negative about DFW. Quite the contrary, he has been an inspiration to me since the early seventies.

Misty-what separates famous Kung-Fu Masters from the other Joe Blows? History-which is told after the fact, by the survivors. All of us have the potential to be the next Wong Fei-Hung, or Cheung Lai-Chuen, and the potential to create forms. Look at how many styles, sub-styles and different forms there are in Kung-Fu. Forms were not brought down from Heaven by the Imortals, they were created by regular men-Joe Blows, if you will. What will decide if a form or style is valid? In the past, it either held up in combat or it didn't. In today's world, unfortunately, if a guy has a large enough organization, or branches, it will determine whether or not the form or style remains. I can think of several styles that the majority of their forms were "created" by the Sifu, and only remains because these guys all belong to the same "Good Ol' Boys Club", where the motto is, "You lie, and we'll all swear to it" If you've been in CMA for awhile-say 20 yrs, you can name these guys off the top of your head as well.

That being said, could we stick to the subject please? One thing I hate is finding a cool topic, and it's eight pages long, only to find that seven of those pages are children bickering about bullsh!t.

So, the topic was...grappling in TCMA. My thoughts are that it DOES exist, and you can find it in Joi Bot Sien, and probably in Fukien Dog Boxing, and Grand Earth Style in Northern Kung-Fu, as well as some shuai-jiao schools.

Ben-are you from Doc Fai-Wong's lineage? What can you tell us about Joi Bot-Sien?

[Green Cloud]

Okay what was the point of this thread??? Is it my CLF has more than your CLF or were we talking about grappling:confused:

The Fact is I've never see one form that looks the same from the different CLF branches. Arguing who has the best shiite out there is counter perductive.

If it has Sao Deng Gwaw cup or Chop it's choy lee fut!

[Ben Gash]

TenTigers, your PM box is fuul :(