View Full Version : Yuk hing my Fathers old notes
An explanation of the Ancient Secrets of Long Boxing, eight gate five steps
長拳八門五行秘訣
By Chu Ba Dao Shi 赵爸指导(from my Father’s old notes) translated by Chu Yuk-Hing 2006
The compass is the four cardinal point and the four diagonal points. The body has the eight Gua trigrams 八卦 and the feet step out the five elements, 五行which allow us to control the eight directions. All together there are thirteen postures or shi 十三勢. The five phases correspond to advance, fire, retreat, water, gaze left, wood, look right, metal and central balance, earth. In central earth the feet develop root, like a tree. Earth develops the central balance root土 the standing juang gong 樁功.There are different methods from other Pai 派(Schools of thought).
Then you must study the four sides, it requires much time to perfect them, or else your effort will be in vain. The hand techniques are very wide and expansive. When your form becomes very compact then your movements are free then you have attained the middle and advanced levels of long boxing, or chang chuan.
In Tui So 推手we learn sticking, adhering, connecting and following. We have natural progress to reach interpreting energy. In this way we can use four once to repulse one thousand pounds. We understand sticking energy and develop good seeing and hearing energy, ting gong 聽功. Chi and blood 氣血 are very important to understand chi blood that expresses itself in internal strength. Circulating chi is difficult with out the help of a good teacher-guide. If you can control your opponents membranes his blood will not flow freely. If you grab your opponents blood vessels his chi will have difficulty in circulating, not flow freely. If you attack your opponents acupuncture points 針灸穴. Sealing the death points terminates his life. This is called dian mai 點脈. The ancients said “ there are life and death acupoints but to learn them requires oral transmission. One because of the difficulty of learning, two because it relates to life and death and it depends on the character of the individual.
One must not teach those who are not loyal and filial.
One must not teach those who do not have a good background.
One must not teach those with evil intentions.
One must not teach those who are careless or crude.
One must not teach those who have no consideration for others.
One must not teach those who are outwardly polite but not compassionate.
One must not teach those who are not reliable.
One must not teach those who are quick to learn and quick to forget. It is important to know the eight disqualifications; as for criminals they need not even to be mentioned. Those who do qualify may be given the secret transmissions orally.
You may teach those who are loyal and filial, emotionally stable, faithful to the teaching, respectful to the teaching, and always consistent. Given these five qualities, if a student is truly consistent from beginning to end and never waivers, you may transmit every aspect of the art. From generation to generation this is the way of the transmission.
David Jamieson
05-22-2006, 11:22 AM
Pretty typical notes.
A little on the cryptic side of course with talk of elements etc etc.
As for the ultra nationalistic confucian ideals set out at the end, well, I guess if that's how someone wants to be that's ok. A little uptight though and indicative of a resistance to change depending how far you want to read into it.
I gotta be honest in saying I find nothing of value in regards to tangible martial knowledge that can be applied through a shown method in these notes.
Nothing personal, just a criticism.
Chu / Yuk hing, thank you for sharing that.
Mano Mano
05-22-2006, 01:45 PM
Chu it’s good of you to share your father’s notes with us.
I think the notes are just as valuable for there cultural content not just there martial.
Even when dealing with people on here I would heed the following.
One must not teach those who are not loyal and filial.
One must not teach those who do not have a good background.
One must not teach those with evil intentions.
One must not teach those who are careless or crude.
One must not teach those who have no consideration for others.
One must not teach those who are outwardly polite but not compassionate.
One must not teach those who are not reliable.
Some people would love to posses such material as humble as it is
svenfeynord
05-22-2006, 03:57 PM
Wow! Thank You Chu and Yuk Hing! There was a world of martial knowledge in this documentation. I am surprised that a master would give such high knowledge to the outside world.
Jamieson, with 7000 posts you should have realized the importance of this information. I have just began studying and I understand. I will continue reading your postings chu. I know I can learn a lot from you.
Royal Dragon
05-22-2006, 04:32 PM
Thank You for shareing! It is not often writings of this nature are shared with the public! It is much apreciated!
thats about the best description of long boxing i have seen yet. may be you could systemize it even more by relating the five style steps to walking the circle which would just be four exchanges of sides instead of two. two excanges gives you a straight line of two people exchangeing sides if you move to the 90 instead of the 180 you get a circle..
just a different approch i use.
Royal Dragon
05-23-2006, 05:29 AM
Hmmm, rereading the notes, I believe they are notes on the Chao family Taiji. Again, very good. I have a diagram of the Chao families 64 move form (It's basically the 8 original Taiji postures done in the 8 gates with some additional footwork to represent retreating), I believe these notes couraspond to the diagram, and are probably part of the manual that covers that section of Chao family Taiji Quan.
The 64 move form is the core fundemental set of Chao Taiji, as it contains all the basics, and fundemental principals of the style. the 37 move form, and the longer set (I don't know how many moves, 108?), are expansions on the core principals and show them as applied to a large variety of movement.
The Chao Taiji system is a *Very* good, but rather rare Taiji method. It's not seen very often.
David Jamieson
05-23-2006, 06:36 AM
Wow! Thank You Chu and Yuk Hing! There was a world of martial knowledge in this documentation. I am surprised that a master would give such high knowledge to the outside world.
Jamieson, with 7000 posts you should have realized the importance of this information. I have just began studying and I understand. I will continue reading your postings chu. I know I can learn a lot from you.
I 'should' do? I'should' have?
If it's good for you, that's fine. My criticism is purely constructive and in all hionesty this type of thing isn't new to me.
Tell me how it's improved your game so that I 'should' know.
What tangible gain have you made from reading this?
Do you now know where east and west are and didn't before?
Can you punch like metal and sink like water now that you've read this?
Do you have a stronger hatred towards those that would steal bread and are you now determied that they should never learn because they are criminal.
It is not appropriate in my opinion to tell someone what their perspective 'should'
be.
read those notes as much as you like. I don't get a thing from them.
And again, that's just constructive criticism.
Sal Canzonieri
05-23-2006, 11:40 AM
So, what does your style say the 13 Postures are?
David Jamieson
05-23-2006, 12:53 PM
So, what does your style say the 13 Postures are?
lol. Look, don't nobody get yer panties in a bunch, but let me say this Sal, If you think there are only 13 postures, then you are severly limiting yourself. the postures that we can do as humans are virtually infinite and with variation in everyone according to their body.
anyway, there is nothing there that can't be scratched from the esoteric musings in any kungfu magazine on the shelves.
First of all, it's a note that is personal and for one persons understanding. It will not improve your ability to read it.
cardinal directions? diagonal directions on a compass? the feet step out the five elements? Tell how that metes out as valuable information? This is not geography and yes you gotta look left and right to be aware in a situational sense, but do you really need to be told that? Or is it self evident?
If it was along the lines of "bring the arms closer and keep the elbows down", don't expose your crotch by being to large in stance, never turn your back on your enemy and never let your gaze fall away from your enemy etc etc etc, this in my opinion would be something of value, but a lesson in geography and elements doesn't amount to anything in martial training.
Royal Dragon
05-23-2006, 01:07 PM
If you have the chart it goes with, like I do, it is a basic description of the Chao family's fundemental 8 gates (64 move) form. It makes sense to me, because I know some Chao family Taiji.
In all honesty, I don't completely understand the chart, but with knowing the form itself, and refrencing the stepping patterns shown in the chart, the "old notes" make sense to me.
David Jamieson
05-23-2006, 01:41 PM
seriously, if you are spending the amount of time required to decipher cryptic and mystical charts, you aren't learning a dang thing about pugilism.
Royal Dragon
05-23-2006, 01:51 PM
I actualy never spent much time. The writings just made sense from knowing the form.
Seriously, if you don't know the form,how could the chart make sense. look at it, is very confusing!
mantis108
05-23-2006, 02:09 PM
Thanks for sharing the chart, Royal Dragon. It's a nice chart with lots of info. It's a chart easy enough to read with or without the form.
I think both sides have a point. Frankly, both of you are right. So... may be we could just leave the arguement and move on to information exchange which I am sure will be more productive and a lot of others would love to see this thread go in the positive direction that it is going. Just a thought... :)
Regards
Mantis108
Royal Dragon
05-23-2006, 02:19 PM
You must read Chinese then!
I keep meaning to translate it to english, but in all honesty, I rarely practice the form anymore. I mostly do the Shaolin 32 Tai Tzu Chang Chuan now.
svenfeynord
05-23-2006, 02:41 PM
That chart looks amazing Royal Dragon. What book is that from? Where did you get it?
Jamieson, Chu's words are mystical and to be understood by a true kungfu master. Only through proper teaching from a real master such as Chu, would someone decipher the true fighting style and be greater than any american boxer. Obviously there is much that goes into Chu's art that we are not seeing. So you keep practicing your american boxing teachings and become as good as those fighters in the octagon. I have had enough of your style basic kickboxing teachings. I am ready to progress to a higher form of the art, where every apect is explained through symmetrical balance. It is obvious to me that you are not a true master because you would appreciate these notes he has given.
Royal Dragon
05-23-2006, 02:53 PM
That chart looks amazing Royal Dragon. What book is that from? Where did you get it?
Reply]
The chart is from my own personal collection.
>>Jamieson, Chu's words are mystical and to be understood by a true kungfu master. Only through proper teaching from a real master such as Chu, would someone decipher the true fighting style and be greater than any american boxer.
Reply]
I have to side with Jamieson. Every art has sill, and untill you have the skill to begin with, the chart means nothing.
>>Obviously there is much that goes into Chu's art that we are not seeing.
Reply]
This is correct.
>> So you keep practicing your american boxing teachings and become as good as those fighters in the octagon. I have had enough of your style basic kickboxing teachings. I am ready to progress to a higher form of the art, where every apect is explained through symmetrical balance. It is obvious to me that you are not a true master because you would appreciate these notes he has given.
Reply]
David Jamieson has been around for a very long time. I would not sell his perspective short. To many masters, the written texts mean very little, because they themselves are the embodiment of the style. To one who has that, the texts are not nessasary. To one who does not have that, the texts are not comprehendable. They are only of use to those in the middle, and those seeking insite into what they already know. It could be said that the notes are a teaching aid for those who are ready for the next level.
I for one would be more interested in Chu's physical knowledge, than the notes. I especially would like to see his Taiji Ruler system.
David Jamieson
05-23-2006, 02:59 PM
don't get me wrong, I do understand the words.
enough to say what i've already said.
and i do think there is nothing unpositive or untowards in regards for pointing out what I've pointed out.
the terms are antiquated and not suitable much anymore.
There's a lot of feng shui and confucianism tossed in in heaping helpings and I don't see how those truly serve the preservation of the arts other than they have been this add in for some time and usually to promote an agenda that is apart from the actual study of martial art.
so it is part of a dichotomy that exists in martial arts, in particular those of asia.
I think it is less helpful and more of a quagmire to take this type of approach.
Now, this says nothing of the value of the actual martial art it pertains too.
What's most important is not the trappings and mystical doings but rather the actual method and actual doing.
I don't read method and I don't see reading text as "doing" martial art and as an individual I find confucianism while pious and honorable to be litrtle more than a control mechanism for one set of society over another and forced order where there perhaps isn't a need.
But like I said, this is only my opinion and it's only pertaining to the above note as it is laid out.
svenfeynord
05-23-2006, 04:45 PM
I don't know much about confuscism. Can you point out the ideology within these notes and explain it for me?
Knifefighter
05-23-2006, 08:07 PM
Jamieson, Chu's words are mystical and to be understood by a true kungfu master. Only through proper teaching from a real master such as Chu, would someone decipher the true fighting style and be greater than any american boxer. Obviously there is much that goes into Chu's art that we are not seeing. So you keep practicing your american boxing teachings and become as good as those fighters in the octagon. I have had enough of your style basic kickboxing teachings. I am ready to progress to a higher form of the art, where every apect is explained through symmetrical balance. It is obvious to me that you are not a true master because you would appreciate these notes he has given.
Ah, yes... another one of the reasons as to why so many CMA guys can't fight.
Royal Dragon
05-23-2006, 08:31 PM
I hate to say it, but you are right. Well, it's not so much that, but the lack of practicing actual fighting. It's not the practice of forms, or stances, or even study of the texts that are the problem, it's the *Lack* of full contact fighting.
SimonM
05-24-2006, 03:48 AM
I 'should' do? I'should' have?
If it's good for you, that's fine. My criticism is purely constructive and in all hionesty this type of thing isn't new to me.
Tell me how it's improved your game so that I 'should' know.
What tangible gain have you made from reading this?
Do you now know where east and west are and didn't before?
Can you punch like metal and sink like water now that you've read this?
Do you have a stronger hatred towards those that would steal bread and are you now determied that they should never learn because they are criminal.
It is not appropriate in my opinion to tell someone what their perspective 'should'
be.
read those notes as much as you like. I don't get a thing from them.
And again, that's just constructive criticism.
I swear I saw a sign with those rules of who to teach to on a wall in Pingyao. They are basically standard Confucianism.
As for the rest it looked like plain vanilla taiji text material pretty much verbatim.
DJ is saying there is nothing new or special in what this poster has provided. And I am sorry to say that it appears to be true so far.
svenfeynord
05-24-2006, 06:31 PM
Yea I guess you are right. How would you know how to fight someone if you dont have any physical contact? I mean you have to have someone to block and attack.
wonders why these people have a hard time with this being tai chi grand push hands has been called the long river for years??
svenfeynord
05-25-2006, 04:50 AM
Royal Dragon,
In the chart why is each character lined up with a different symbol? What do the center circles mean? Surely the teacher who gave you that is a master to have thought of something so detailed. I have never seen anything like that. It is very complex. I have been trying to figure it out. Maybe you can help me decipher it. Are those his signature seals at the bottom of the page. What do they say? What is his name?
Royal Dragon
05-25-2006, 05:25 AM
Like I said above, I never deciphered the chart. From knowing the form itself, I can see it is recording each move of the set, and the stepping pattern it uses.
The circles can mean anything. Taiji is full of circles. I have charts showing the spiraling energy, as well as others showing the body mechanics as well. The art is not in the chart, it's in the physical body.
Charts, and texts are there to aid self study for those who are well along thier journey. They are only there to record details, and provide insite to the reader.
If you want a detailed explanation, you would have to ask Chu, it's a chart of his families Taiji Quan. He seems to have a genuine intrest in educateing.
Hello, Mr. Gian
Sorry for offend, but I Chu ca not be in conversation with you anymore because you too much controversy
With call yourself royal dragon and the emperor. This is reserve for only the emperor of China.and nor for regular people. Noone do not understand my notes but is the basic secret of all north south long quan (chuan) 全南北长拳基本秘决。
Maybe my son yuk hing talk to you about this more than me. Sorry but I can nnot talk to you anymore at all
Chu
Saijen
David Jamieson
05-25-2006, 09:50 AM
Hello, Mr. Gian
Sorry for offend, but I Chu ca not be in conversation with you anymore because you too much controversy
With call yourself royal dragon and the emperor. This is reserve for only the emperor of China.and nor for regular people. Noone do not understand my notes but is the basic secret of all north south long quan (chuan) 全南北长拳基本秘决。
Maybe my son yuk hing talk to you about this more than me. Sorry but I can nnot talk to you anymore at all
Chu
Saijen
hate to say I told you so, but I told you so. lol
ps. what emperor of China?
Scott R. Brown
05-25-2006, 10:22 AM
...as an individual I find confucianism while pious and honorable to be litrtle more than a control mechanism for one set of society over another and forced order where there perhaps isn't a need.
What system of conduct doesn't do this?
If society didn't have a system of conduct to control behavior we would not have a society at all! Humans together in groups ALWAYS create a controlling system of conduct. It is designed so that individuals may get along better to the benefit of everyone. Even those on the outside of a dominant system of conduct have their own control system of conduct for their sub-group!
Some basic universal rules of a controlling system within any group are:
1) Do not harm anyone within the group.
2) Do not do anything that will interfere with group cohesion.
3) Conform to the group’s controlling system.
These rules cannot be avoided if an individual wishes to be a member of any group!
David Jamieson
05-25-2006, 10:49 AM
What system of conduct doesn't do this?
If society didn't have a system of conduct to control behavior we would not have a society at all! Humans together in groups ALWAYS create a controlling system of conduct. It is designed so that individuals may get along better to the benefit of everyone. Even those on the outside of a dominant system of conduct have their own control system of conduct for their sub-group!
Some basic universal rules of a controlling system within any group are:
1) Do not harm anyone within the group.
2) Do not do anything that will interfere with group cohesion.
3) Conform to the group’s controlling system.
These rules cannot be avoided if an individual wishes to be a member of any group!
I respectfully disagree.
A social construct can be made without any heirarchy whatsoever.
It demands responsibility and accountability.
It demands that we learn generationally to do the virtuous things and to not seek to blame others where we have our shortfalls.
Our societies that we live in are alwasy seeking to blame, blame blame.
People even ponder who's fault it is for weather conditions. Look at the Tsunami or even better New Orleans. These are unavoidable disasters.
Confucianism is antiquated and has some value to it, but there is a lot of sheer crap throughout it that doesn't fit with moving men forward in thought. It is all about kowtowing, heirarchy and knowing your place. Practically speaking, it's almost as bad as a caste system in many respects.
as soon as you look for a leader, you remove your own ability to lead your own life with much virtue.
mantis108
05-25-2006, 11:40 AM
First and foremost, I think SimonM nailed it on the head although he didn't quite called the bluff. ;) Royal Dragon showed a pair of Ace and the Chu(s) folded their deck (with the classic move - I am not talking to ya!) immediately. :eek: Meanwhile, Scott and DJ are showing their possible flush and pairs and the battle continues....
Who takes the pot? Whose deck reigns superme?!
Stay tune for the battle royale of Forum Poker. :D
Mantis108
David Jamieson
05-25-2006, 11:46 AM
will there be stripping involved?
cause i really don't want to show and see anymore pee pees on this forum. lol :D
svenfeynord
05-25-2006, 01:30 PM
I am sorry Chu and Yuk Hing, for the other members of this forum's disrespectful writing. From what I have seen on this site not many people take the art seriously. Send me a private message if you wish to communicate with someone serious, willing to learn and be humble to a master.
willing to learn and be humble to a master.
I think you've got the wrong forum. Try alt.leathersex/submissive
:rolleyes:
Scott R. Brown
05-25-2006, 06:06 PM
A social construct can be made without any heirarchy whatsoever.
It demands responsibility and accountability.
It demands that we learn generationally to do the virtuous things and to not seek to blame others where we have our shortfalls
Hi David,
Can you name a successful sizable social structure that has accomplished this goal? If you can, which I doubt, can you demonstrate that its members conform to the social structure without any form of social coercion? This is doubtful as well. All social structures use some form of coercion to enforce compliance to the social structure! This coercion may be in the form of rewards, negative consequences or social conditioning which may be referred to as “education” by those who agree with the social structure or “brainwashing” by those who disagree!
You have a very idealistic view, but it is doomed to failure because it does not take into account human nature. . Humans by nature have differing personalities. Some are leaders, some are followers, some are sheep, some are wolves, some are shepherds, some are loners, some are peacemakers some are aggressive, etc.
Your view is no different than saying we could all get along if everyone would just agree with ME!! To get everyone to agree with ME I must use some form of coercion. Even a system of social rewards is a form of coercion. Once we use coercion to enforce/encourage conformity we are as bad, or worse than any other totalitarian method, whether governmentally forced or socially forced. It is just a more insidious form of totalitarianism. Groups ostracize those who refuse to comply. Once individuals do not have the freedom to non-comply with the group then your ideal falls apart.
Scott R. Brown
05-25-2006, 06:21 PM
as soon as you look for a leader, you remove your own ability to lead your own life with much virtue.
Hi David again,
Behaviors/attitudes considered “virtues” are learned. They are learned from others whether we are conditioned by our parents, religion, teachers or reading the ideas of others. This eliminates our freedom to live a life of virtue by your standard because virtue then is determined/influenced by others and not ourselves. Humans cannot exist separate from social structures because we are born into them. These structures influence us from the beginning and affect the choices we make. When a social structure influences the available choices we have then we lose freedom.
None of us live our own lives according to whatever standards we choose because our choices are influenced by our conditioning. Once we are conditioned we no longer have complete freedom to choose freely.
SimonM
05-25-2006, 08:20 PM
BTW: I took a look at the phrase that "Chu" posted in his "I'm not talking to Royal Dragon because he thinks he is the emperor of China" post... My Chinese is far from pefect but I believe the second last character is "Peru"...
I'm bringing th Chinese text with me to lunch and I'll get my Chinese friends who read much better than I to translate it.
Royal Dragon
05-25-2006, 09:28 PM
Hello, Mr. Gian
Sorry for offend, but I Chu ca not be in conversation with you anymore because you too much controversy
With call yourself royal dragon and the emperor. This is reserve for only the emperor of China.and nor for regular people. Noone do not understand my notes but is the basic secret of all north south long quan (chuan) 全南北长拳基本秘决。
Maybe my son yuk hing talk to you about this more than me. Sorry but I can nnot talk to you anymore at all
Chu
Saijen
Reply]
Mr. Chu. I am not sure what time period you live in, but in 2006, there is no Chinese Emperor. Also, I do not "Call myself" the Emperor. The name "Royal Dragon" refers to the story of Tsao Tu Ming's worm. A learned scholor such as yourself must surely be familiar with the story of the Sung dynasty silk trader Tsao, Tu Ming, and how he discovered a new type of small Dragon along the silk trail. You must also be familliar with the part of the story where Tsao Tu Ming brought these Dragon's back with him, and started selling them to the Royal house holds as pets (Hence the name "Royal Dragons", and how they grew unexpectedly to be quite large.
I'm sure you know the rest of the story. I am not named for an Emperor, I am named for the Royal Dragon's brought to the Imperial house hold by the silk trader Tsao, Tu Ming.
Clik on the link below to see a picture of the Royal Dragon I am named for.
David Jamieson
05-25-2006, 09:42 PM
None of us live our own lives according to whatever standards we choose because our choices are influenced by our conditioning. Once we are conditioned we no longer have complete freedom to choose freely.
Man, that's a tight world you see.
Reciprocal and non-heirarchical social structures may not exist now in larger portions of the civilizations that inhabit the earth now, but they do exist. And I still disagree that it is hard code for us to gravitate to forced control.
Yes, I agree, 'we' live in such a crappy construct, but that's not to say it doesn't have to be that way and I think you discount the ability for humans to naturally want peaceful co-existence overall.
take a look at your own neighbourhood. you don't all live in the same house, you don't all follow your community leader, but you do want your street lights on and you do want your garbage picked up. In that sense, there is reciprocity more than leaders and so on. I think that political mantels are donned, but for the most part of the year, unneccessary.
Maybe it's the libertarian in me more than an ideal. A social contract and construct can exist with a reciprocal and egalitarian society.
yes, certain people will be asked or will work towards management and maintenance of infrastructure, trade and even the military if need be. But decisions that effect life or death should not be in anyones hands but their own.
true democracy works towards this end. all service to the whole that is in agreement is voluntary, those who can't abide don't have to, but are not included in the resiprocity of the society.
I know where you're coming from, but you gotta see the possibilities. It's not all bleak house. :p
Royal Dragon
05-25-2006, 09:54 PM
Story of Tsao Tu Ming's Worm
The following link is one version of the story I have seen. Unfortunetly I donot have the book I found the original in, but I have seen several versions on line in the past. Some take place in the Ming dynasty, one in the Sung, and another during the Ching dynasty. All are vertually the same story though.
SimonM
05-25-2006, 10:35 PM
Noone do not understand my notes but is the basic secret of all north south long quan (chuan) 全南北长拳基本秘决。
Literally your "notes" in Chinese you posted in this say...
"North and south Long Fist's basic secret."
According to my friends this is an incomplete sentence and not grammatically correct Chinese.
So far you have provided us with:
A: Basic Confucianist principles that would be well known to anyone with even a passing knowlege of the Analects and Mencius.
B: Standard Taiji theory with a random Chinese character thrown in every so often to make it look more authentic.
C: A refusal to answer questions posed to you under the guise of "you are claiming to be the emperor of China"...?!?!?!?
Let me tell you: I know plenty of Chinese senior citizens. Not a Qing loyalist in the lot of 'em. I walk around in a rayon shirt with yellow and orange dragons all over it and the only comment I ever get is "nice shirt, where can I get one".
D: Mistakes in your chinese grammar evident immediately to the first Chinese person I showed it to.
E: Your "chinglish" doesn't read like a Chinese person who learned English as a second language. IT reads like someone who learned English as a first language who is trying to sound like they learned English as a second language. For instance I've never encountered the construct:
"Noone do not understand my notes"
The use of double negatives is quite rare among the writings of Chinese people who have learned ESL. They would be more likely to say "No one understand my notes."
So although I've danced around this for a while, trying to give you the benefeit of the doubt, I'm going to say what most of us are now thinking:
Nice troll but you aren't hooking anyone in with this. Back to the drawing board. :cool:
Scott R. Brown
05-26-2006, 01:21 AM
Man, that's a tight world you see.
Reciprocal and non-heirarchical social structures may not exist now in larger portions of the civilizations that inhabit the earth now, but they do exist. And I still disagree that it is hard code for us to gravitate to forced control.
Yes, I agree, 'we' live in such a crappy construct, but that's not to say it doesn't have to be that way and I think you discount the ability for humans to naturally want peaceful co-existence overall.
take a look at your own neighbourhood. you don't all live in the same house, you don't all follow your community leader, but you do want your street lights on and you do want your garbage picked up. In that sense, there is reciprocity more than leaders and so on. I think that political mantels are donned, but for the most part of the year, unneccessary.
Maybe it's the libertarian in me more than an ideal. A social contract and construct can exist with a reciprocal and egalitarian society.
yes, certain people will be asked or will work towards management and maintenance of infrastructure, trade and even the military if need be. But decisions that effect life or death should not be in anyones hands but their own.
true democracy works towards this end. all service to the whole that is in agreement is voluntary, those who can't abide don't have to, but are not included in the resiprocity of the society.
I know where you're coming from, but you gotta see the possibilities. It's not all bleak house. :p
Hi David,
I am sure it is my nearly 15 years of working with socio-paths in the CA prison system that influences my opinion. Individuals who have never known or experienced the dark side of human nature, that of manipulators and predators, tend to have more of a Pollyannic view of humans getting along in peaceful co-existence than those of us who have long term exposure to a more complete spectrum of human behavior. I frequently tell friends of mine without the experiences I have had that you cannot reason with the unreasonable! You just can't make nice with those who do not want to make nice with you in a fair and open exchange. Socio-paths will “appear” to accommodate you because is lulls you into a false sense of security. This sense of security and in many cases self-satisfaction at what a wonderfully advanced and understanding person you are creates a weakness in you that will be exploited by the predator. He has purposely set up the situation to take advantage of you for his own personal gain. Your ideal society must have a means of dealing with this type of individual.
Humans are inherently focused upon their own self interest. Many or most individuals will lie and cheat if they think it will benefit themselves over the benefit of others. This was graphically demonstrated to me within a Sociology class I attended many, many years ago. We played a game called the X/Y game.
The class divided into groups of 8. Each group of 8 contained 4 groups of 2. Each pair made a series of secret choices of either X or Y and then put the selection into the middle of the table. Each pair was awarded points or lost points based upon how their choice measured against the choices from the other 3 pairs. It became clear that if you guessed Y when everyone else guessed X you would be awarded the most points. If everyone guessed a specific way then everyone would benefit by receiving equal points although with lower over all points than if you gambled and guessed correctly against everyone else.
During the course of the game we were allowed to negotiate with the other pairs of the group of 8 in order to work out strategy. Me, being basically egalitarian minded and also of rather strong personality, convinced everyone in the group to work together for the benefit of all rather than risk losing everything and ending up with NO points at all. The first round or two following the negotiation went well but, it became clear to the selfish minded (basically half of the pairs at my table) that if they cheated by going against the agreement they would benefit. What they didn’t anticipate was that by doing so it opened it up for everyone to do whatever they wanted and it became a free-for-all where gaining points returned to a risky proposition. After more negotiation I got everyone to forgive each other and in the end everyone worked together. Because of the earlier deceptions some pairs had more points than others, but everyone ended up with some points. At the end of the class it turned out that the real plan was to pit the groups of 8 against each other and not the pairs within the groups of 8. It was the cumulative point totals of each pair within in the groups of 8 that mattered not the point total of each pair singly. My group won because I was able to negotiate a mutually beneficial agreement and heal the rift created by the selfish minded.
This game was intended to demonstrate just your ideal where everyone works together for the benefit of all, but contrasts it with human nature. That is the natural tendency for individuals to take advantage of the illusion of security to take advantage of circumstances for their own benefit.
Your proposal is predicated on an ideal that does not take into account those who enjoy taking advantage of the trust of others and/or enjoy creating fear and chaos in others. Some individuals prefer to dominate through fear and they enjoy it. Others prefer the more insidious route of manipulation I have mentioned above.
In your ideal civilization the act of denying reciprocal benefits to those who do not play the game is a form of coercion that influences the individual to comply with the rules of the group. Any method of coercion is a type of force. I agree my previous example contained a bit of hyperbole, but coercion is a subtle form of force. When negative consequences are imposed for non-compliance the difference in method from a totalitarian organization is only a matter of degree.
It is not a negative perspective that influences my view, but a realistic understanding of prevailing human nature.
Scott R. Brown
05-26-2006, 03:06 AM
So although I've danced around this for a while, trying to give you the benefeit of the doubt, I'm going to say what most of us are now thinking:
Nice troll but you aren't hooking anyone in with this. Back to the drawing board. :cool:
Hi Simon,
I have noted that his father's name is Yuk Hing and I have been wondering about it. I know nothing of Chinese, but it is suspiciously similar to "YUCKING"???? As in,"The joke is on you!!!!"
omarthefish
05-26-2006, 03:24 AM
Here's a quick link online publically presenting most all of that info but without being in code and with pictures and minus the tacked on confucian boy scout code of honor:
http://www.wutaichi.org/pictures/13_basic_movements.pdf
Enjoy.
David Jamieson
05-26-2006, 06:36 AM
Scott-
Our life experiences certainly play a major factor in the formation of our world view. But even you must know that not everyone in a prison is a sociopath or a psychopath.
A lot of them are dudes who made bad choices. A large percentage of them are more indicative of poor socio-economic conditions, poor education, error in thinking and so on as opposed to teh bonafide "something ain't right about him" types that are generally locked in the Special Handling Units.
Despair is no reason to stop moving towards a better world though. I would find it more difficult to resign myself to it than to make efforts to at the very least make changes in myself to the ends of what I would like to see around me.
THis is difficult as well at times, but nevertheless... :)
Scott R. Brown
05-26-2006, 07:53 AM
Hi David,
Certainly I am well aware of what types of differing personalities that may be found on a prison yard. There have been a number of inmates I prefer to some staff.
However, I have also worked with inmates that would happily kill you for the right price (a remarkably low price I might add) and then rape your dog when they were done cutting you and your family to pieces.
Please do not confuse a realistic attitude with a despairing attitude. I can fault no one for dreaming and working towards a better tomorrow, however if ones view of human nature is in error, then the plan to build a better tomorrow will be inherently flawed and doomed to failure. Reality bites as the say!!
Hello everyone
On the forum. My Father was disappointed by the negative comments about him. (I feel that a lot of Americans in general are, sad to say, suffering from what I would call an identity crisis, such as Bruce Lee want to be’s etc..) Just be yourself and get real.
My Father was going to start an on line Chu Shi Tai Ji Club, (赵式太极拳社) with a tai ji I.D. Card for free along with DVD downloads for free on many subjects of his family arts, for all who were sincerely interested as practitioners of tai ji and internal systems arts. But now he will not do this or share any further information with anyone on the internet. He also had a lot of documents to share with wonderful stories about our culture as well.
As for the chart that was on a letter post, it is authentic and the 2 persons who did the chart ( a Mr. We Chong Dao and a Mr. Kai Si they must have known our family style, as we recognize the Chinese and can interpret it. It is for more than just one form, rather many forms that come out of the one written for posterity.
This chart should not have been shared with so many people over the internet, as it was obviously intended for a select few students, perhaps inheritors of the style.
I know that there must be a few sincere people who really desire to learn, and I Chu Yuk- Hing 赵誉恒 do not appreciate anyone making fun of my name, as I have not made jokes about anyone else’s name. My name means lasting reputation for those who are really interested.
The Chinese that was written is correct. It says: all south north long fist fundamental secrets.
Maybe we should all study from the "english teacher (American in China) who knows more than my father and I....?
Yuk Hing
SevenStar
05-26-2006, 09:28 AM
That chart looks amazing Royal Dragon. What book is that from? Where did you get it?
Jamieson, Chu's words are mystical and to be understood by a true kungfu master. Only through proper teaching from a real master such as Chu, would someone decipher the true fighting style and be greater than any american boxer. Obviously there is much that goes into Chu's art that we are not seeing. So you keep practicing your american boxing teachings and become as good as those fighters in the octagon. I have had enough of your style basic kickboxing teachings. I am ready to progress to a higher form of the art, where every apect is explained through symmetrical balance. It is obvious to me that you are not a true master because you would appreciate these notes he has given.
ROFLMAO!!! I swear, it never stops...
Scott R. Brown
05-26-2006, 10:41 AM
Hi Chu,
Please understand for yourself and explain to your father that anyone can come onto the internet and say anything they want. Because of this there is an element of caution and skeptism that many adhere too in order to evaluate the information that is presented for its true value. In America and other western countries open criticism is considered a fair treament for determining the importance and validity of information. If the information survives the crucible of criticism then it may be considered valid by some, but still invalid by others.
There are also alot of smart a$$es called trolls that will say anything in order to get someone else upset. It is a form of passive/agressive behavior. Some people are open-minded, but do not have the social or verbal skills to express themselves in any other manner than abrasiveness and some people are just inherently straight forward. This may appear to be offensive, but they consider themselves as speaking directly to the point and do not consider themselves to be rude. This is a decidely western trait. It may be unfair to expect those of us who have been born and raised within a more open and free-speaking culture to adhere to your fathers expectations of behavior. We are not Confucian in our outlook or upbringing. The expectation that we adhere to a cultural code of behavior not our own is not very realistic.
If you or your father have something you consider of value that will benefit others I would encourage you to present it. But since this is an open forum it WILL be subject to scrutiny and comment by those knowledgable and ignorant. Some comments will be kind, others will be unkind, but that is the nature of internet forums I am afraid.
You may try presenting information on Tai Chi on the Tai Chi portions of this Forum. You may get a more receptive response there.
svenfeynord
05-26-2006, 12:28 PM
Here's a quick link online publically presenting most all of that info but without being in code and with pictures and minus the tacked on confucian boy scout code of honor:
http://www.wutaichi.org/pictures/13_basic_movements.pdf
Enjoy.
I have done deep research into Bagua fundementals recently. The 8 diagram chart is not correct. I am pretty sure there are not 13 original moves.
As for the chart that was on a letter post, it is authentic and the 2 persons who did the chart ( a Mr. We Chong Dao and a Mr. Kai Si they must have known our family style, as we recognize the Chinese and can interpret it. It is for more than just one form, rather many forms that come out of the one written for posterity.
This chart should not have been shared with so many people over the internet, as it was obviously intended for a select few students, perhaps inheritors of the style.
huh? if you're talking about the chart RD posted with the below post, I've had a copy for years.
guess that makes me an inheritor...oh, no, wait...I said "No, thanks"
If you have the chart it goes with, like I do, it is a basic description of the Chao family's fundemental 8 gates (64 move) form. It makes sense to me, because I know some Chao family Taiji.
In all honesty, I don't completely understand the chart, but with knowing the form itself, and refrencing the stepping patterns shown in the chart, the "old notes" make sense to me.
Royal Dragon
05-26-2006, 12:41 PM
Bagua has 8 basic moves, it's Taiji that has 13.
They are the 8 basic hands of ward off, roll back, press, push, pull down, spliting, use of elbows, and shoulder/hips, combined with the 5 steps of advance, retreat move left, move right, and to be centrally rooted. 5+8=13
omarthefish
05-26-2006, 03:16 PM
I have done deep research into Bagua fundementals recently. The 8 diagram chart is not correct. I am pretty sure there are not 13 original moves.
And that article was on Taiji, lu in particular but it included a nice little summary of the 13 shi which does not really mean "moves" anyways. In this context they are best thought of as "methods" or "shenfa".
But just for the record, it does all apply to Bagua as well. Just different terminology. In Bagua, in addition to the 8 shenfa (different from the Taiji shenfa but still 8 of them) there is a 5 element / 5 steps system integrated so it's still 8 + 5 = 13.
;)
Thank you Mr. Scot Brown for your kindness. My Father appreciates it. He still will not share anything else on the internet but he said I was free to discuss intelligent things if I so desire.
As to the chart some one put one a post, it is not correct, as far as we are concerned, although there are many patterns, so maybe some othe school like Ma Yuey-Liang uses it, but it does not corespond to the animals and other multiple correspondenses on a basic and middle level. I think maybe this came from Germany? Theymay have made a mistake.
Gan Xie
感謝，赵誉恒
Yuk-Hing
SimonM
05-26-2006, 07:16 PM
Maybe we should all study from the "english teacher (American in China) who knows more than my father and I....?
Yuk Hing
LOL! I'm not an american.
mantis108
05-26-2006, 09:06 PM
I have done deep research into Bagua fundementals recently. The 8 diagram chart is not correct. I am pretty sure there are not 13 original moves.
You are right the diagram in the article is quite mess up. I am curious by Bagua fundamentals, you mean the Yijing (classic of change) or Bagua from the Bagua style?
Mantis108
David Jamieson
05-27-2006, 05:45 AM
correct or incorrect, charts and poems don't really matter.
what matters is can you ktfo the threat that is attacking you.
mantis108
05-27-2006, 10:22 AM
correct or incorrect, charts and poems don't really matter.
what matters is can you ktfo the threat that is attacking you.
while this is true and I agreed with you in general, I don't think that intelligence and kung fu are necessarily mutually exclusive. We don't have to all be Connan the Barbarian to be effective in the fighting game IMHO. Church, state, and sicence, sport, etc can be very much seperated but it would be more of a personal choice. If there are demands on legit acadamia along side martial arts or martial sport for that matter, why not do it properly?
I am just saying that make sure we give authentic material and information if we want to provide them. It is just as bad to give half @ss info as giving a half @ss self defense technique.
I am sure those guys who composed the article should know what they are doing. Who knows ... they might just kick my behind easily. But in my opinion there is a flaw in the info that is presented and I am just calling it as it is. That's all.
Warm regards
Mantis108
Royal Dragon
05-27-2006, 01:19 PM
What flaws did you see specifically? Was this in the chart I provided? or the other one in the artical on the 13 postures?
mantis108
05-27-2006, 02:09 PM
I was referring to the 13 postures article. The most basic error that occured in that article is compass direction. North in Chinese convention is not on top (almost never). The other critical error is that the arrangement of the 8 trigams is neither Xian Tian Bagua (Heaven-Earth vertical axiel alingement) as seen it yours nor Hou Tian Bagua (Thunder-Lake horizontal axiel alingement). I think I have seen something similar to the one in the article but that I can't say for sure it's the same arrangement which is rarely rarely in use. So...
BTW, your diagram goes a little further then it appears and it's quite consistent with Daoist perspective IMHO.
Warm regards
Mantis108
Royal Dragon
05-27-2006, 04:30 PM
Hello!
That is what i thought.
As for mine, one day if I ever learn Chinese, I'll really dive into it. Untill then, any insite you can offer would be appreciated.
svenfeynord
05-28-2006, 10:01 AM
Shouldn't the teacher who gave you the chart have translated it for you?
David Jamieson
05-28-2006, 10:11 AM
Shouldn't the teacher who gave you the chart have translated it for you?
kungfu teachers aren't necessarily linguists or translators.
svenfeynord
05-28-2006, 10:22 AM
But surely to be a teacher and hand down such a chart you know what it means. Who are the teachers who handed the chart to you? Why not just ask them the translation?
I mean to possess the chart and not know what it means it becomes useless. So why have it or pass it down to the next student?
Royal Dragon
05-28-2006, 10:37 AM
Very few studnets of Chinese teachers learn Chinese, and many Chinese don't speak great english, let alone write it. I was given the chart as part of a limited comercially sold manual on Chao family arts. The understanding is that I would someday have it translated.
I really don't practice the Chao Taiji anymore as I focus mostly on the original Sung Tai Tzu 32 posture form. It is an internal set, and contains everything I need out of an art in one form.
I may teach it someday, but right now my Taiji teachings consist mostly of assisting a friend of mine, and covering a class for him here and there. He is teaching the Yang 24 to the public. I personally hate that set, but I need to be able to cover, so learing it seemed a task of duty more than anything.
... He is teaching the Yang 24 to the public. I personally hate that set, but...
I agree, I don't like it either. Btw I won't even call it 'Yang', I prefer to call it the 'Beijing 24' set.
Royal Dragon
05-29-2006, 06:23 PM
There is something about the energy of that set that just grates with me. When I have to cover that class, I do Taoist circle walking, hold the ball and I do drills like wave hands like clouds, or grasp the spaorrow's tail, but I refuse to do that form.
David Jamieson
05-29-2006, 06:47 PM
i believe most refer to it as beijing 24.
but it was built out of yang.
i think it has something to offer, especially at the level it is designed to be doled out at, IE everyone and anyone who can stand should be capable of learning and doing the beijing 24 set.
besides, sometimes it's all about reduction. :)
beijing 24 is introduction to taijiquan for all.
not a completely flawed idea in my opinion.
diagram of what i was saying about walking the circle with the five element step. is a good way to break up training and goes along with principals of yeilding in the long river.
Royal Dragon
05-29-2006, 09:27 PM
beijing 24 is introduction to taijiquan for all.
not a completely flawed idea in my opinion.
Reply]
If it is a good set, why do I feel tired, and weird after I practice it? I can do the Chao style 37, and I become alive wiht energy and vibrance, or the Shaolin 32 TaiTzu set (Or any Tai tzu set for that matter)
I can just do some Taiji Ruler, even just one exercise for 20 minutes striaght, and I feel very refreshed when I am done, but the "Bejing" 24 seems to leave me tired feeling, and run down.
It is a similar feeling to what I had when I did Chung Moo Quan forms untill I dropped, only with out as much physical exertion. I always feel like I can't quite get the breathing right or something with that set.
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