Which martial Art to learn? Plum Blossom Mantis or Baji Chuan?

[cybermantis]

I am confused I cant make up my mind which art to learn Baji or Mantis I love em both, mantis trains every day and the sifu is supposedely certified inder Duke Y.M. Cheng from Buena Park california. I am getting older, the mantis I would have to commute 1hr away and the baji is 15 minutes away but the only thing is the baji only has class once aweek from 2-3 hours Is that enough to learn the art, I wanna be good. or can a person learn both?
I have the time now to devote more of my time into becoming a good fighter?:confused:

[SPJ]

7 star mantis has many forms.

In contrast, plum flower mantis has not that many forms.

Six harmony mantis has even fewer forms.

In general, mantis is busier with hand and foot moves.

you may try out or sit in a few classes and see what you like.

personally, I love Ba Ji the first time I saw the performance.

:)

[SPJ]

http://www.chinatanglang.com/index.asp

this is a good link of plum flower mantis info. but it is in Chinese.

you may download video info on all the forms, but you have to register first.

:)

[cybermantis]

So personally I love baji the best but sifu jason only teaches 1x per week and the class lasting 2-3 hours on saturday morning but what I hear is, that it is pretty intense learning and training ?
So my my heaart and soul tells me that Jason will make a good Baji fighter outa me?
I guess Im gonna give him a try ? Is there else I can do besides train and learn to advance my training skills?

[SimonM]

I'm all about the Baji lately. On the other hand I could never get into Mantis.

[ChinoXL]

You know, baji and mantis compliments each other very nicely

[golden arhat]

6 combinations is generally considered to be the most sophisticated and soft version of mantis as i have heard it is like iron wrapped in wool. good inside kungfu article on it back issue.:) where are you getting the option to study three styles of mantis ? i have only seen southern mantis probably due to the fact that most chinese immigrants to the uk are from hong kong or southern china.

[Three Harmonies]

Meihua Tanglang actually has quite a few sets, but nothing like the Qixing schools. It is true that Liuhe Tanglang has only eight forms (some circles say nine, but they have created a form or two sometimes). But the basic training in Liuhe is much more involved (sounds like Baji eh?) with the 93 Secret Hands, and conditioning work etc.etc. So it all evens out.
Liuhe is usually considered the "softer" of the Mantis styles, (my teacher jokingly refers to it as old man Mantis ;) ) and your analogy of steel wrapped in cotton is correct.
The more I do Liuhe Tanglang and Xing Yi, the more similarities I see with the Baji training I have done and still do. Each is unique don't get me wrong, but their are certainly certain movements that are **** near identical. Just my opinion though.
Cheers
Jake :D

[gfx]

baji and meihua mantis have vastly different approaches to fighting. It really depends on your personality and your preference to the approaches.

Baji prefers heads on attacks that throws everything into an opponent, while meihua mantis relies on fast feet and body works to avoid and gore the opponent with less power, but much much more speed.
Basically, do you prefer to flow and sting like a bee or bash someone like a bear?

If the instructions are good, once a week is plenty. Martial arts are mostly developed on personal training imho. The teacher will give you guidelines, but to grind them into the body is entirely up to the practitioner. There is not that much to teach about baji, the principals are intuitive, but the practice is not easy.

Both styles are not easy to practice. Meihua mantis's demand on body and feet structure while moving in blinding speed is difficult, while Baji's heavy demand on power generation and body structure is famous (infamous?).

In my opinion, you can be functional as a fighter much faster with Meihua mantis, but Baji really helps to bring one's skill to the next level.

Why not do both? Not at the same time though, one at a time.

[SPJ]

Cool.

I like the bear analogy.

Hu Bei Xiong Yao.

Tiger back and the bear waist.

:)

[Sifu Darkfist]

I train both and think both are essential
The fast waist shifting power of soft target attacking and relentless speed of Mei Hua are only a prelude to the death blow of the entire body attack of the Baji combatant.
Combined these two arts can deal easily with all four ranges (yes ground fighting included due to chin na being applied on the ground and endless elbows and head butts).

Work two jobs and pay for both
Life is too short to deprive yourself of either

[omarthefish]

So personally I love baji the best but sifu jason only teaches 1x per week and the class lasting 2-3 hours on saturday morning but what I hear is, that it is pretty intense learning and training ?
So my my heaart and soul tells me that Jason will make a good Baji fighter outa me?
I guess Im gonna give him a try ? Is there else I can do besides train and learn to advance my training skills?

Jason's class is only as "intense" as you make it.

He has some truly difficult exercises and you could go a long way with the Baji he has to offer but I really didn't find his classes particularly more intense than any other good MA workout. 2-3 hours is deceptive. You still need to be pretty self motivated. It's not like he's going to be there at the head of the class like a drill master or something. There's a small group and you work together independantly. Then periodically he comes over and checks up on you, suggests exercises to work on etc.

Baji is not for everyone.

Also, he teaches Baji more than just once a week. There's classes on both Sat and Sun. and Friday evening I think he has a special class for the spear training. It may be that the more begginers group for Baji only meets on Sat. morning.

Trying to integrate Baji and Mantis is just silly to me. A lot of the Wu-Tan groups start you off with Mantis for several years before introducing Baji. You could go that route but IMO, there is nothing to be gained from blending the two. Mantis is more easily understandable and more quickly learned.

You mentioned age may be an issue which makes me wonder why you don't consider Jason's Bagua classes. Same group of people, same class times. Easier on the body.


There is not that much to teach about baji, the principals are intuitive, but the practice is not easy.

lol. I was tempted to respond to this with the rolling eyes smiley and nothing more. I'd say there is little intuitive about it at all. The movements are more different from what "came natural" than anything else I have ever been exposed to. I think the body method is truly unique or at least extremely challenging for most people to really understand and if you think there is not much to teach about it then it only suggests to me that you have no quan pu.

Baji is just a hair less complicated/subtle than Taiji or Bagua and truly deserves to be categorized as a "Wudang" style in contrast to Mantis which is essentially Shaolin.

[omarthefish]

I'm all about the Baji lately. On the other hand I could never get into Mantis.

Interesting.

So when did you start getting exposed to Baji and what kind of exposure are you getting?

[gfx]

lol. I was tempted to respond to this with the rolling eyes smiley and nothing more. I'd say there is little intuitive about it at all. The movements are more different from what "came natural" than anything else I have ever been exposed to. I think the body method is truly unique or at least extremely challenging for most people to really understand and if you think there is not much to teach about it then it only suggests to me that you have no quan pu.

Baji is just a hair less complicated/subtle than Taiji or Bagua and truly deserves to be categorized as a "Wudang" style in contrast to Mantis which is essentially Shaolin.

The principals are as complicated as you make it. I personally find baji principals very easy to understand. Same thing goes for bagua and taiji principals. Of course theoritical understanding and physcial practice is two separate things.

I think you are misunderstanding what I meant. You are talking about the difficulty of physically understanding the movements. That can only be done though constant repetition on the part of the student if he is willing. The teach can only provide the theory and framework of the movements as a guideline. Which serves to helps to prevent the student from straying into incorrect movements while practicing. I did tong chui and nian bu every day for almost half an year until I finally felt I was finally able to them somewhat correctly. So yes, I agree with you, baji is physically difficult to understand.

However martial art theories are not complicated stuff. What works are usually very simple. The important things is getting the _correct_ method of it. ( not to say that what you are doing is incorrect, just making a general statement )


I do agreed with you that mixing Baji and mantis at an early stage is not a good idea. The mindset and body mechanics are too different. However baji can give valuable insights into power generation. Which is very different from how meihua mantis does things.

[omarthefish]

Well, whatever. If you think they are intuitive, that was your experience. I don't know what ideas you were presented with or what training methods so I can't say. We could be talking about very different ideas.....or not.

I have to take issue with your wiley rephrasing of my other point though:



I do agreed with you that mixing Baji and mantis at an early stage is not a good idea. . .

I do NOT agree with you on this.

I do not thing that mixing them is not a good idea "at an early stage". I do not think it is a good idea period.

[FuXnDajenariht]

just ****in pick one bro. you cant go wrong cuz their both quality arts to practice. go with the best teacher thats the most convenient for you. if anything you can study both of them but you hafta start somewhere. dont go mixing arts either. kung fu is all in the name baby. dont believe the hype. if you aint sparrin', you aint fighting. theres no secrets to fighting.


and mother**** the confederate flag. :mad:

[zhangxihuan]

I am confused I cant make up my mind which art to learn Baji or Mantis I love em both, mantis trains every day and the sifu is supposedely certified inder Duke Y.M. Cheng from Buena Park california. I am getting older, the mantis I would have to commute 1hr away and the baji is 15 minutes away but the only thing is the baji only has class once aweek from 2-3 hours Is that enough to learn the art, I wanna be good. or can a person learn both?
I have the time now to devote more of my time into becoming a good fighter?:confused:



remember, certified is NOT the same as actually going to the master's school.

personally I woudlnt drive that far.

[RAF]

I don't think that one would literally want to mix baji with meihua praying mantis, i.e. forms or movements but there is some overlay which helps in either system.

For years I misunderstood what my teacher meant when he said he put baji power into his forms. The stance work (8 basic postures) and the da qiang (big pole training) are pretty basic and would help in any system and that is the foundation that goes from baji into other forms (now, I know there are some who literally mix praying mantis and baji but they have their own ideas and I only speak from the perspective of what my teacher has shown or told me).

At one point, many years ago, baji wasn't so accessible and so everyone started in praying mantis (in some Wutan(g) schools). The first thing one learned in praying mantis was 8 basic postures/stances and we held them for a minute or more as we transitioned through them.

A couple of years ago, Sun De Yao, a taiji meihua praying mantis lineage holder came and lived at our school for about 2 years. My praying mantis days are long gone but I got to watch him train one of our senior students, Rob Peterson, privately for well over a year, 3-4 times a week. Since Rob had stance work and da qiang training under his belt, Master Sun De Yao spent an enormous amount of time using the forms to condition/develop the unique waist movement from his style. He built upon the foundation that Rob had arleady built, however, the unique body shenfa of praying mantis still made the transition difficult and I think sometime people learn a little bit of this and a little bit of that, mix it up and fail to differentiate the finer point of each respective system.

As time went on, I got to film some of the training (the copy is in my teacher's hand, I have no copy) and briefly followed some of Master Sun's spear form and training. At one point he picked up a da qiang and started to do some drills that were different from baji (they helped build into the uniqueness of his system) but also similiar. I asked him if they had big pole training in meihua praying mantis and he responded affirmatively. End of show and conversation.

As I have in my handle, "Traditional Northern Chinese martial arts are all sons of the same mother," [Liu]. Just like brothers they have a similiar genetic makeup but there are differences. Training in the basics of either system (not literally mixing them) will help to transition you but after some point, the uniqueness of the system must blossom and the systems part ways. Some systems are closer in their ways but eventually they do part ways otherwise why differentiate the system?

[omarthefish]

... Training in the basics of either system (not literally mixing them) will help to transition you but after some point, the uniqueness of the system must blossom and the systems part ways. Some systems are closer in their ways but eventually they do part ways otherwise why differentiate the system?

Well said.

My unstated point exactly.

[K.Brazier]

Cybermantis,
Did you make your final decision yet?
Here is a link to a mantis site with some articles and clips(by me).
Kevin

plumflowermantisboxing.com