stomach/private attacks.

[Cobra Commander]

WHy is it so difficult to sense/feel/see a lower attack from someone who is fighting you?

For example=

1)someone doing a feint attack from above and suddenly (quietly) hitting you in the stomach.

2)someone feinting from above with arms and suddenly kicking you in the privates (the Wing Chun front heel kick for example)

3) and someone simply hitting you in the private with their hands.

Why is
it so difficult to feel/sense/see these under body attacks and effectively deal with them b4 being hit?

What drills/exercises can one do to train and prepare for such sneaky attacks? Are some of the answers in Sil Lum Tao too???

[anerlich]

I doubt that much scietific study has been done on this, but:

varying the direction and level of attacks makes them more difficult to defend against - this is pretty standard KF tactics. The purpose of a feint is to get you to react, thus creating an opening or set up a following technique

if you develop "tunnel vision" instead of a broad external attention, it may be easier to slip in an attack at the periphery

Some of these attacks may even come from outside the field of vision, and without any contact by definition you cannot see them coming. With contact, you might be able to feel what's going on to some degree but it still isn't 100% reliable (nothing is)

How to train for this? Get training partners to try to do it to you in sparring, a lot (get some good groin protection and don't go all out)

Can SLT help? Not much IMO. SLT won't help you perceive incoming attacks.

[Matrix]

WHy is it so difficult to sense/feel/see a lower attack from someone who is fighting you?
You do sense/feel the attack. Unfortunately it's too late by then. ;)

It's not much different than getting sucker-punched in the head. The problem is that we tend to be very upper body focused and within a narrow range at that. So, I would say you just need to work on expanding your sensitivity. One thing would be to use peripheral vision. That is being aware of things happening away from the center of your visual focus. That will help in the "seeing" part of the question.


What drills/exercises can one do to train and prepare for such sneaky attacks? Are some of the answers in Sil Lum Tao too???
We call the exercise chi sao. :)
So when you are rolling, what are you mentally focusing on?
If you know where both of your opponents hands are, without chasing them, it's harder for them to hit you. Of course in a fight, it will not be like chi sao, from that point of view, in that your opponent is not going to offer both of his hands to you.

Also, you need to be in control of your balance while taking your opponents (easier said than done). This is where your horse and footwork can really help you to deal with this problem.

You need to have control of that space in front of you, and that means from head to toe, not just between your shoulders and your elbows.

And yes the answer is in SLT too.... If you know the form then just ask the question to yourself as your playing it. It's just a part of the answer of course, but it's always good to start at the beginning.

[Matrix]

1)someone doing a feint attack from above and suddenly (quietly) hitting you in the stomach.I'm less concerned about feints per se. If they feint, I'm coming down the center anyways, so they better be prepared for that. As Andrew put it so well, the purpose of the feint is to get you to react. You need to stick to your game plan. Control the center and seek contact (bridge). Sometimes the best defence is a good offence.

and you know what........
You just might get hit :eek: so you better be prepared for that eventuality.
A hit to the stomach is one strike. If you were playing chess, are you going to fold because someone took your pawn? Fighting is messy. If your goal is to try to avoid getting hit, you will lose, IMO.

"the privates" is another issue. Learn how to use your legs/knees to protect the lower half. If you can vcontrol their balance, it's hard for them to hit you with any power.

As always, your mileage may vary.

[Cobra Commander]

I find that often counters to lower attacks is not emphasized as often with drills. Well.... I'm sure in some people's Chi Sao practice they include it.....

Learning to deal with these types of attacks early on in our training I believe will be beneficial. Or at least the basic concepts of them.

The worst is when your partner or attacker gets at you up close with silence out of the blue.

Think of a boxer who is so close to his opponent he can land a clean solid uppercut to the solar plexus.

[Matrix]

The worst is when your partner or attacker gets at you up close with silence out of the blue. Oh well, you didn't tell me that we were dealing with ninjas.
That's a completely different discussion.........

[Mr Punch]

Yeah, when they butt you in the nuts... it's those midget ninjas that'll really get to you.

[Anisole]

it is very hard.

but, most of the time the most easiest thing to do is just to go in and jam their attack. then they will think twice to do feints. It takes alot of courage to do this. the best way i think as commented by anerlich also do a lot situational sparring. personally, i tend to look at alot of kung fu animal styles because there is alot of hidden set ups.

[marcus_pasram]

Hello CobraC,

I would suggest you discuss your concerns with your SiFu. Sometimes, we as students, try to get ahead of ourselves without understanding where we are. Consider this post as a reference, food for thought, or ignore :)

If you train properly, you will develop a habit to react "instinctively" to simultaneously cover your opened area and attack your opponent. Coverage is an important concept in the drills you practice with your training partners. One of the basic ones, has you facing your partner squarely, with both of you in YJYKM and neutral Jong. Your opponent swings (from the outside) to hit you high or low, and you respond with a Tan da when he goes high, Gaan Da when he goes low. Shifting and all that good structural stuff. See this clip (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7602027524959935401&q=sifu+allan+lee). As you practice this over and over, you will start to develop that awareness for outside attacks. Similarly, there are other (San Jong Sau) drills (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2378998932253613453&q=sifu+allan+lee) to help you with straight attacks, kicks, etc that incorporate mobility, distance, timing, coverage etc into your response.

These drills are designed to help you train your reflex, among other things and are not fighting. As you're able to handle these drills by executing your technique, you gain that "feeling", and confidence and insight into the "techniques" you train.

As ANerlich wrote, a feint is a common ploy designed to elicit some reaction from you, to draw you into a trap. Later on, the San Jong Sau drills incorporate training to deal with feints. SLT and Chi Sau are just as important, however, as we are taught, SLT won't help you with reflex. Chi Sau does help with Coverage and supplements what you learn in the San Jong Sau training.

If you're in NYC - come drop by our school. Open minded Wing Chun practitioners are always welcomed.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I know I've said his many times in the past - but it bears repeating here on this thread once again:

Elbows and knees travel twice as slow as hands and feet when straight line blows are thrown - and 4x slower when round blows/kicks are used...and therefore they're easier to pick up and read when something is coming at you...

and seeing will provide time for you to react...

even against low line attacks.

Watch those elbows and knees - especially when there's no bridge.

[Matrix]

Yeah, when they butt you in the nuts... it's those midget ninjas that'll really get to you.I just HATE when that happens............ :eek:

[Matrix]

Watch those elbows and knees - especially when there's no bridge.
In a nut shell, that's it. :)

[Meklorien]

Yuppers. Watch the knees and elbows. Also, remember to feel your bridge connections at the dan tien level. You will sense lower level attacks that way. Relying on just your arms and eyes is top heavy.

[Dave P]

What drills/exercises can one do to train and prepare for such sneaky attacks? Are some of the answers in Sil Lum Tao too???

As previously stated by Matrix, the answer lies in Chi Sau practice. Specially in Lat Sau Tjik Cheung (Loose of contact, attack instantly. Is his movement moving backwards, attack immediately)

If somebody has the possibility to grab you in the groin, you'll also have the possibility to hit him in the center of mass. Your move should be shorter, your attackline is shorter. A low attack from your opponent is a possibity for you to strike down the center. Always focus on going forward. Grab every possibility to attack, or you will be attacked.

[YungChun]

How do you watch--read focus on...

Elbow A

Elbow B

Knee A

Knee B

All while maintaining a general visual awareness of the entire body, energy state and distance all at the same time? Not to mention a complete situational awareness of other possible threats..

Moreover differences in opponent's height, position and movement may well obstruct some or most of these points from view..

IMO this is not the 'singular' focus one needs to maximize visual awareness of the opponent and situational awareness of the environment.

No offense to the elbow watchers out there.. JMO

[CFT]

Elbows and knees travel twice as slow as hands and feet when straight line blows are thrown - and 4x slower when round blows/kicks are used...and therefore they're easier to pick up and read when something is coming at you...

and seeing will provide time for you to react...

even against low line attacks.

Watch those elbows and knees - especially when there's no bridge.I'm not sure about this. We made observations about low attacks in training yesterday. When the 4 (2+2) arms crowd the centreline then the line of vision is very much blocked so one cannot easily (if at all) see low kicks to the centre (stomach, privates, knees).

I think in these situations you want to get even closer for knee to knee contact, or you train to get so sensitive that you can feel the changes in your opponents weight distribution, which may be easier of you really are using forward intent.

[Meklorien]

Wow. Okay, you can't literally "watch" elbows and knees with your eyes. You must feel them. How do I know my opponent is moving the knee? I am feeling him pick up the leg through the bridge. How do I know my opponent is moving the elbow? I am feeling him move the elbow through the bridge.

Like others have stated in this thread, you must practice chi sao and probably don chi for this type of development. Good chi sao, not the kind one often see's wherein the participants are hurried and rolling arms for the sake of rolling arms. Set a good stance, keep the elbows in and go slow. Feel your opponent's ground, centerline -- energy.

If you practice wholesome chi sao the answer to your question will be clarified.

[Dave P]

We made observations about low attacks in training yesterday. When the 4 (2+2) arms crowd the centreline then the line of vision is very much blocked so one cannot easily (if at all) see low kicks to the centre (stomach, privates, knees).

Probably in sthis case (as I try to imagine) the distance between those two persons it too large. Here you often find the 'fighting against the opponents arms' situation. Instead of fighting the opponents center of mass.
Try to step in closer to the opponent and make sure you are in control of the situation. He won't find a chance to bring up his leg. Why should he do that? He's in trouble. And if you're in trouble, better not stand on only one leg :p

On the other hand, If you are in contact with the opponents arms, and he lifts up his leg you can easily bring him out of balance so he has to gain back control of that balance by putting his leg back on the ground (or fall and break his jaw on the concrete :rolleyes: ) Try this once in Chi Sau, let your partner lift up his leg and than play with his balance by bringing one of his arms down. (and ofcourse continue the attack...)

greetz

[CFT]

Sounds good Dave.

[Cobra Commander]

Probably in sthis case (as I try to imagine) the distance between those two persons it too large. Here you often find the 'fighting against the opponents arms' situation. Instead of fighting the opponents center of mass.
Try to step in closer to the opponent and make sure you are in control of the situation. He won't find a chance to bring up his leg. Why should he do that? He's in trouble. And if you're in trouble, better not stand on only one leg :p

On the other hand, If you are in contact with the opponents arms, and he lifts up his leg you can easily bring him out of balance so he has to gain back control of that balance by putting his leg back on the ground (or fall and break his jaw on the concrete :rolleyes: ) Try this once in Chi Sau, let your partner lift up his leg and than play with his balance by bringing one of his arms down. (and ofcourse continue the attack...)

greetz


This feels like sound advice and knowledge. Though I know of a Muay Thai/JKD guy who understands how Wing Chuners often want to step in close range and attack. SO what he would do is try not allowing the Wing Chuners from getting too close to him. He would rather be in HIS kneeing/fisting distance. He's kind of a challenging fighter to deal with.

[anerlich]

Okay, you can't literally "watch" elbows and knees with your eyes. You must feel them.

It's a bit hard to feel them without contact, unless you have paranormal abilities. If you can't watch them outside contact range (a notion with which I disagree), better make sure you have heavy duty groin protection.

Once you're in close, I agree you can't watch real easily. And as Victor would tell you, once you're in contact range, the sense of touch is superior. But outside of it, watch those elbows and knees.

[Meklorien]

It's a bit hard to feel them without contact, unless you have paranormal abilities. If you can't watch them outside contact range (a notion with which I disagree), better make sure you have heavy duty groin protection.

Once you're in close, I agree you can't watch real easily. And as Victor would tell you, once you're in contact range, the sense of touch is superior. But outside of it, watch those elbows and knees.

It's never a good idea to watch anything in particular even when you don't have the gap closed, but yeah, I agree. You have to watch the whole package.