Secret of the Golden Flower?

[DarinHamel]

I was hoping to post some questions about alchemy but I wasn't sure if I would get answers or just flamed for being crazy or something. Is this a good place for the mystical stuff?

[Nexus]

The short story of this is that male sperm is transformed into jing energy which during meditation is channeled up the spine and to the brain (the golden flower) for nourishment.

I won't go into this practice any further since it is better described by the taoist canon. It is usually taught by a teacher passed on from teacher to student. I'm not sure learning it from a book or a website would suffice but it may.

[DarinHamel]

The short story of this is that male sperm is transformed into jing energy which during meditation is channeled up the spine and to the brain (the golden flower) for nourishment.

I won't go into this practice any further since it is better described by the taoist canon. It is usually taught by a teacher passed on from teacher to student. I'm not sure learning it from a book or a website would suffice but it may.

Hey thanks for the quick answer. I have seen the pictures of the tiny body come out of the crown of the head and read about the tiny body coming out the forehead. In my practice the tiny tody came out my forehead.

My question was are these two different events? Did I screw it up somehow? I was hoping that the forehead emergence was the giving birth and then after the twelve years of nurturing (3 years) and training (9 years) of the baby shen it comes out the crown of the head.

Since the tiny body came out of my forehead in 1994 the twelve year mark is this year and if I screwed it up somewhere along the line I dont know if I have the umphhh to do it again.

[neilhytholt]

Hey thanks for the quick answer. I have seen the pictures of the tiny body come out of the crown of the head and read about the tiny body coming out the forehead. In my practice the tiny tody came out my forehead.

My question was are these two different events? Did I screw it up somehow? I was hoping that the forehead emergence was the giving birth and then after the twelve years of nurturing (3 years) and training (9 years) of the baby shen it comes out the crown of the head.

Since the tiny body came out of my forehead in 1994 the twelve year mark is this year and if I screwed it up somewhere along the line I dont know if I have the umphhh to do it again.

Please note that I'm not trying to flame you or anything, but how do you know a tiny tody (body) came out of your forehead?

[DarinHamel]

Please note that I'm not trying to flame you or anything, but how do you know a tiny tody (body) came out of your forehead?

LOL- Valid question and a funny one too.

I felt an uprush of energy in meditation and it felt like I was flying upwards through a dark tunnel. At the end of the tunnel I felt myself coming out of my forehead and my physical body at the same time. I was seeing through the eyes of the tiny body. As far as feelings go it was kinda like if you expand your fingers out you can feel your fingers better and not lose awareness of your hand. I felt myself inhabiting a tiny body coming out of my forehead and didn't lose awareness of my physical body.

I guess thats the best way of explaining it. I still haven't decided whether or not it was an objective event or some strange psychological experience.

[neilhytholt]

I felt an uprush of energy in meditation and it felt like I was flying upwards through a dark tunnel. At the end of the tunnel I felt myself coming out of my forehead and my physical body at the same time. I was seeing through the eyes of the tiny body. As far as feelings go it was kinda like if you expand your fingers out you can feel your fingers better and not lose awareness of your hand. I felt myself inhabiting a tiny body coming out of my forehead and didn't lose awareness of my physical body.


Dang ... I'm always jealous when people talk about their experiences. I was in some Zen group once and everybody was sitting, and at one point this guy started shaking a little bit, and then was just like completely unconscious. They sortof talked him back awake. The old timers there said they were totally jealous of him and said they couldn't believe it was his first time??? I never talked to him though about what happened to him during that time.

[DarinHamel]

Dang ... I'm always jealous when people talk about their experiences. I was in some Zen group once and everybody was sitting, and at one point this guy started shaking a little bit, and then was just like completely unconscious. They sortof talked him back awake. The old timers there said they were totally jealous of him and said they couldn't believe it was his first time??? I never talked to him though about what happened to him during that time.
Don't be jealous. I was turned down for the Catholic priesthood back in 1987. But the "calling" was valid so here I am years later basically living like a monk without the emotional support you get from living in a religious community. On the good side nobody can tell me what to read or not to read so I have a good understanding of not just Catholic mysticism but Taoist, Jewish and a few others. Still when it comes to the bodies it seems information is thin or just doesnt jibe with I have experienced. Bummer...

[neilhytholt]

Don't be jealous. I was turned down for the Catholic priesthood back in 1987. But the "calling" was valid so here I am years later basically living like a monk without the emotional support you get from living in a religious community. On the good side nobody can tell me what to read or not to read so I have a good understanding of not just Catholic mysticism but Taoist, Jewish and a few others. Still when it comes to the bodies it seems information is thin or just doesnt jibe with I have experienced. Bummer...

Well communities have problems. People tend to get their egos in a twist, so to speak.

[TenTigers]

I have circulated the small heavenly cycle with a woman during/after orgasm, and the two times I did it, the woman had such a rush of energy for the next day, they both asked me if I "did something to them". I did not "steal" her energy, I simply mingled mine with hers. Evidently, it was liike increasing the water pressure through a waterwheel attached to a turbine or dynamo. It revved them up. Funny, often the chakras are looked at as wheels, which spin.
Anyone else have these experiences?

ps-I know of one guy who used to try to steal his GF's orgasm energy as well. She caught on, and dumped him. She's a Taoist, he was into Crowley -figures.

[neilhytholt]

I have circulated the small heavenly cycle with a woman during/after orgasm, and the two times I did it, the woman had such a rush of energy for the next day, they both asked me if I "did something to them". I did not "steal" her energy, I simply mingled mine with hers. Evidently, it was liike increasing the water pressure through a waterwheel attached to a turbine or dynamo. It revved them up. Funny, often the chakras are looked at as wheels, which spin.
Anyone else have these experiences?

ps-I know of one guy who used to try to steal his GF's orgasm energy as well. She caught on, and dumped him. She's a Taoist, he was into Crowley -figures.

Dang, I don't get to do anything anymore. You guys have the life. Maybe a bus can hit me on the way to work tomorrow and put me out of my misery.

Edit. Anyways I guess I shouldn't want that because I'd probably just wind up in a hospital bed with tubes sticking out of me, it wouldn't finish me off.

But seriously, no, and the aliens never talked to me, either. Why does everybody else get to have all the fun?

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi DarinHamel,

Keep in mind that the descriptions are merely metaphorical. They state what a specific experience or phenomenon is “LIKE” not what it actually “IS”. The description is not the thing! Do not try to force your experiences to fit into a predetermined form described by others. Each person’s experiences will be unique to them, but are also similar to those who have gone before. The descriptions provided are merely a guide to help identify and categorize inherently un-catorizable experiences.

An experience in and of itself is no true measure of development. It is the transformation of our being, our perspective, the manner in which we view phenomena, and the manner in which we manifest that internal transformation in our daily lives that is the true measure of growth. Pursuit of experiences can become a distraction and may cause pitfalls one must eventually overcome to continue progress!

Experiences are no different than if I practice to perform a backwards somersault and one day when I am finally able to perform one I am proud of myself. I am happy I finally achieved my goal, but in the end it is only a backwards somersault. It does not make me a better person. A skill is merely a skill; it is not a measure of maturity or insight! This is where many who follow such inclinations stumble. Some may confuse possessing an ability or having an experience with maturity and become proud, arrogant or self-satisfied, which are stumbling blocks that must be transcended in order for progress to continue unimpeded.

Your experiences are interesting however. Please feel free to continue sharing them!

[DarinHamel]

Thanks Scott. In my opinion The Secret of the Golden Flower has a section on "confirmatory signs" as do most mystical books because they are pretty objective. Obviously there will be differences like a book describing male puberty. There will be differences but I will be able to tell if I have undergone puberty or not by referencing the book. I do understand your concerns and I appreciate them.

I understand also that a tiny spiritual body coming out of your might seem metaphorical, but thats only until it happens to you. It is also a level of Taoist Alchemical development called "Giving Birth to Baby Shen". There are levels to these things and we can grade ourselves just like a black belt is more advanced than a green belt.

neilhytholt-I've never seen a UFO either.:(

[neilhytholt]

Yeah, I'm totally p*ssed about the UFO thing. The only thing that I ever ran into was one night I was out hiking around midnight in this big state park after hours (you're not supposed to go there after dark).

Anyways, suddenly this plane cruised over about 50 feet above me, going really slow, like 100 miles an hour or less, scared the living crap out of me. It looked like an F-18, but it was almost totally silent. It cruised out right over the hilltop and down into the city below. Weird stuff.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi DarinHamel,

Yes, I agree with you, internal transformation will likely involve physical changes as well. I also agree that since the subconscious mind communicates with imagery and metaphor these physical changes may be expressed in a symbolic manner within the mind.

What I mean to say is, the lack of an identifying experience does not necessarily indicate a lack of accomplishment/attainment, but neither does the presence of an identifying experience necessarily indicate a sign of progress. An experience is an experience, it is how we choose to define/interpret it that gives it meaning to us and it is this meaning that creates the value of the experience.

The time frame you have indicated for the process you are engaging in should be considered a general frame of reference, similar to an average time period. For some individuals it may actually occur in 6 years while for others it may take 20 years. The lack of an identifying experience may not necessarily be an indication of the lack of your progress, but in the end it is the internal transformation one should be working towards and not the identifying experience. Looking for the identifying experience could indicate that your focus is too much on transient phenomena and not enough on personal transformation. If we place inordinate value on identifying experiences, when they don’t occur we could be creating a circumstance where discouragement results. It isn’t the lack of the experience that is the problem then, but the inordinate value we have placed upon it.

[DarinHamel]

What I mean to say is, the lack of an identifying experience does not necessarily indicate a lack of accomplishment/attainment, but neither does the presence of an identifying experience necessarily indicate a sign of progress. An experience is an experience, it is how we choose to define/interpret it that gives it meaning to us and it is this meaning that creates the value of the experience.

I have heard the same thing from some of my Catholic spiritual directors my entire life. It was the monastics who were more familiar with judging spiritual growth which they did seperate from the growth of the so called "psychic" abilities or events.

But I believe that spiritual growth is as objective as physical growth. People do progress at somewhat different speeds but all growth follows a pattern and the same general time periods as does psychological growth. Both physical and psychological growth have "milestone markers" that you can use to judge progress.

Since we are a unity of body, mind and spirit why seperate the spirit from them and say that it is governed by different rules of maturation?

Scott, thanks for making me think.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi DarinHamel,

Thank you too for sharing your thoughts and experiences.

Just so you are aware I am not a Catholic priest, LOL!!

My studies are primarily Zen, Hinduism, Christianity and philosophical Taoism.

Your view makes sense; however it cannot be demonstrated to be universally true. It seems to be somewhat factual for “some” of those following a specific program or system, but even within a specific system it does not seem to occur universally among the adherents. For your perspective to hold true it would be required in “every” instance for “every” individual. Zen is rife with Sudden/Spontaneous Realizations. Hui-Neng, the 6th patriarch of Ch’an for instance had an immediate spontaneous transformation after hearing the Diamond Sutra one time! This would seem to be in contradiction with your expectations!

Any attempt to demonstrate a consistent process would create a dead formulaic system. This is because it would require adherents to conform to a fixed program rather than have a program formulated for each individual’s uniqueness. The fixed program might not actually be the method followed, but it would have to be a fixed system of measure. Once we require conformity, we lose freedom. A round peg is required to fit into a square hole in order for an individual’s unique experience to be held as valid within that system. The individual would not be allowed to interpret an identifying experience according to their own temperament, that is, find their own meaning. They would be required to re-define the experience according the rules of the system in order for his experience to be validated within the system. This circumstance would not cultivate growth; it would stifle growth because unique experiences would be required to conform to an external measure. Those valid and meaningful experiences that don’t conform would be ignored and valuable insight and lessons would be lost!

Buddhist and Hindu literature suggests that successful systems use what are called “useful expedients”. Useful expedients are tools used to transform an individual’s personal perspective from a limited point of view to an unlimited or lesser limited point of view. This is the message of the “White Ox-Drawn Vehicle” metaphor found in the Lotus Sutra.

A man finds his house on fire. He tries to call his children outside to safety. The children are so engrossed in their games and toys that they don’t respond to the father’s entreaties. So the father uses an expedient to get the children outside. He promises them better toys if they will just come outside. Each child is promised a specific toy according to their own unique temperament. One is promised a goat cart, one a deer cart and one an ox cart. Once they come outside the father gives them an even better cart than he promised and it is harnessed to a great white ox.

This story is a metaphor for preparatory teachings that are used to indicate truth in a manner conducive to an individual’s inclinations, needs, temperament and personal ability. The tools of the expedient are to be modified, replaced with others or discarded all together as one progresses towards Truth. Each person has their own unique personality and therefore is best served by a method (useful expedient) conducive to their personality. This is also discussed somewhat in the Bhagavad-Gita.

It is clear that there are somewhat universal archetypes held within the psyche of man. There are common themes found in the myths from every culture expressing universal human experiences. So from that perspective it would seem that your view must hold some validity, but to insist it holds universal validity appears to be in error. Error occurs then, when we require our personal experiences to conform to a pre-determined process that is meant to be a loose guide rather than a fixed scheme.

I have known intimately numerous individuals that possess psychic abilities and had unique experiences yet demonstrated NO measure of personal insight, enhanced development, superior ethical conduct or character. One was an American Indian Medicine Man with whom I was an apprentice for a short period of time!

[DarinHamel]

Your absolutely right (and a million times smarter than me BTW). I think we were just talking about different things. I don't believe "alchemy" has anything to do with enlightenment or a persons spiritual level even though there are spiritual aspects to it.

I'm sorry, I was using "spiritual growth" when I should have been using another term. I dont even like the body, mind, spirit way of talking about this stuff. I prefer feeling, intellect and will.

-anyway-
My original question was are these two different events? I have seen the pictures of the tiny body come out of the crown of the head and read about the tiny body coming out the forehead. In my practice the tiny tody came out my forehead. Actually it did come out of my forehead again exactly three years later to the day. But the second time it was really wispy and weak.

Did I screw it up somehow? I was hoping that the forehead emergence was the giving birth and then after the twelve years of nurturing (3 years) and training (9 years) of the baby shen it comes out the crown of the head.

Since the tiny body came out of my forehead in 1994 the twelve year mark is this year and if I screwed it up somewhere along the line I dont know if I have the umphhh to do it again.

Using what you know about Taoism or Taoist alchemy what's going on?

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Darin,

I am not sure if you are addressing me here, but I have pretty much stated my view, which is I think you have misunderstood the meaning of the metaphor/allegory. If you take it too literally then you confine your experience to your expectations, your misunderstanding and the limitations you accept. Since you are insistent that your experiences must conform to the system you follow you have artificially limited your experience and are likely to misinterpret the experiences you do have. You seem to have an emotional investment in having this specific experience. If this is so you could potentially subconsciously create an artificial experience or reinterpret an unrelated experience to conform to your expectations.

I have known individuals that have done just that. From their view they have achieved an attainment or ability, but for those on the outside looking in, those with a bit more insight, it is clear they have convinced themselves they have attained something they emotionally NEED to experience. This illusion breeds spiritual pride and is a hindrance to true transformation of being. This then becomes a stumbling block that interferes with any true progress. From my view it could be the seeming preoccupation you have and the emotional investment in a superficial experience that may be interfering with the progress you desire.

No one can make the assessment you request because we don’t know your internal state of being which is what influences your progress. Alchemy is merely a metaphor for transforming an individual’s state of being. It isn’t a physical transformation; it is a transformation of mind! It isn’t the action or method you practice that is the determining factor it is the condition of your mind. Exercises are merely tools used to facilitate this internal transformation. Trying harder or practicing more diligently will not help if your mind is in error. This is why the time period is not an absolute, but merely a general guide. I can say if you view your practice as too difficult to repeat it doesn’t seem worth the effort in the first place.

It appears you are working toward outward attainment rather inner development. If this is the case, even if you did have the identifying experience you seek it would not necessarily mean anything because it won’t necessarily indicate what you think it will.

[DarinHamel]

Scott,
I can't say I disagree with anything you say. Have you ever had an out-of-body experience though? I had them spontaneously for seven years. At the end they were driving me a little nutty. The experiences I use to mark progress are in other systems too. I would not have taken them literally if they didn't happen to me literally.

For example, when I heard that the universe was made of living light I thought it was just a metaphorical statement. That is until 1994 when I intensified my Tai Chi practice to end my out-of-body-experiences once and for all. By June I was up to eight to ten hours a day which included Taoist Immortality exercises (alchemy). On weekends it would even extend into the twelve to sixteen hour range.

Then in July 27th on a walk in the woods, my mind exploded into the universe. Looking at the trees did not reveal leaves and bark. I saw explosions of fiery, living, golden light. It began where the seeds sprouted originally. The explosions then flowed upwards and downwards forming the tree. The dark gravel trail became a stream of glowing gemstones. It was like I woke up and was seeing reality for the first time.

For someone who has not been "there" I can imagine why some would think that talking about the world as uncreated light and all connected at soul level would seem like some sort of hazy metaphor. But I have been "there" so I take many metaphors and true and have experienced them as true also, such as the tiny body being nurtured for three years, but then ground to void over a nine year period of "facing the wall listening to the ants scream" and the practice of "being the calm center amidst the chaos of activity" which are symbolic.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Darin,

I am not intending to diminish your experiences or their meaning for you. I am attempting to point out that the acquisition of abilities, experiences and/or skills do not always follow a specific order or time period and have no necessary bearing on ones ethical/spiritual maturity. Some individuals have a greater talent for psychic abilities and experiences than others. Some people confuse psychic abilities and experiences with spiritual development. While some with spiritual maturity/insight do acquire psychic abilities and have transcendent experiences, others do not, may have similar ones, or may have different ones. I have known more people with psychic abilities and experiences or what they considered psychic abilities and experiences with very little maturity/insight than I have known with psychic ability/experiences and superior maturity. In fact most were decidedly immature socially and spiritually! Most of the people I have known displayed a self-important attitude often referred to as spiritual pride. These individuals confused psychic ability/experiences with spiritual development. Their unhealthy attitude impedes true personal development.

The Golden Flower treatise is an allegory that outlines one of the many methods for cultivating spirit (a useful expedient), not the development of psychic ability. It does outline some transcendent experiences similar to those you have had; however the experiences alone do not automatically endow one with spiritual insight or maturity. Information must be integrated into ones being, so to speak, to provide long lasting transformative benefits.

The Golden Flower treatise is excessively metaphorical IMO. The same information can and has been communicated in a much more understandable fashion from other authors. Because it is translated from ancient Chinese many of the allegorical references could be difficult for modern people to understand completely. Some allegorical references in these ancient texts require an understanding of the historical context and culture in which they are written. It seems to be pretty clear to me on its main points, but experience has taught me that when it comes to metaphorical language it is easy to misunderstand a point. This is because culture influences the meaning of its metaphors. What may indicate one thing to the modern mind may mean something entirely different to an individual living 2,000 years ago! Therefore it is easy to misunderstand the author’s original intent when we do not understand the cultural and historical milieu of the writer.

While there is some overlap in training modalities between the cultivation of the spirit and psychic ability/experiences, for the most part psychic ability /experiences and spiritual development may be trained or developed separately. They are not necessarily inextricably entwined.

Many spiritual masters counsel against preoccupation with psychic ability/experiences when it is ones purpose to develop their spirit as it can become a preoccupation that creates impediments to progress. On the other hand, if it is of interest for an individual or they demonstrate an aptitude for psychic ability/experiences there is no need to avoid its development as long as it is kept within the proper perspective. One of the examples I use is the basketball player Michael Jordan. His expertise is basketball and in his day he was arguably the best in the world. His basketball ability is a skill/talent, and nothing more. People do not go to Michael Jordan requesting advice on spiritual matters because of his expertise in basketball. This is because there is no necessary confluence between a skill and spiritual development, yet many people erroneously believe there to be a connection between psychic ability/experiences (a skill or talent) and advanced spiritual development. It is not so with basketball and it is not so with psychic ability/experiences. A skill or talent is merely a skill or talent and nothing more.

I have had my fair share of unusual psychic experiences. I have even had some training as a psychic and as a shaman which are inherently similar. My wife is highly psychic and can speak to the seemingly dead and/or spirits/angels whenever she wishes. Mostly she wishes not to because she finds it too demanding on her. I neither seek nor avoid experiences. I can have them whenever I choose, but I do not seek them because it is a path that does not lead to my goal. When they occur spontaneously they fascinate me and I consider the message they have to teach, but if they do not occur I am not concerned.

The experience you mention is a very profound one and I agree it is similar to those expressed by others. Perhaps TaiChiBob will be kind enough to reprise his somewhat similar experience for us.

It is not my intention to negate your experience or diminish it in any way. It was a clear spiritual experience! However, it is not the experience that is important, but its meaning; how it has transformed your life for your greater benefit that is of significance. In other words it is the information provided by the experience, how you have interpreted the information and experience, and how you have applied the information for the improvement of yourself that is of true value. If it has provided you with no real benefit it is merely just another experience like any other we have in life.

These experiences, for some, do mark a stage of development, but it is not necessarily so. For example, there are those who have had the same experience yet do not have the doubts that you seem to have expressed on this thread. I am not intending to insult you or diminish your experience and I want to be delicate with your feelings here. I am just one person expressing thoughts according to my experiences and insight. It is my intention to help, not hurt. So please do not take offense if I share my honest thinking concerning your experience. It is an experience that seems to have had a very transformative effect on you. You observed first hand the connectedness of all things. This is an experience to be treasured. However, what has it done for you personally? Has it transformed your perspective on life and existence in a manner that has increased your sense of personal value? Has it made you a better person? Can you easily repeat the experience and if and when doing so does it provide you with insights into yourself and creation that increase the overall quality/value of your life?

These are the consequences/results that would demonstrate the quality and benefit of your experience.

I am happy to continue our discussion if you so desire. This is one of the most fascinating discussions I have participated in, in a long time; if you choose not to continue our discussion that is fine too. I do hope TaiChiBob will share with you his transformative experience and share the insights and benefits he has gained. I think it would be of some benefit.

[DarinHamel]

I was hoping I wasn't going to scare you away. Yeah lets continue with another mystical model.

Death-3 days in tomb-Resurrection-50 days until-Descent of the Holy Spirit

I noticed a three day period early on with a *ahem* almost wet dream and what St Teresa calls rapture or some kundalini rising. It would be one night I would sublimate the sexual essence and three days later during meditation I would have an experience of feeling like I was being pulled upward through a tunnel.

Now this is significant because of the experience we've been discussing relates to this. It all started with a sublimating sexual essence (death) then three days later the tiny body coming out of the forehead (resurrection) and then exactly fifty days later the world is light event.

So this is another timed schedule but clearly allegorical but with an exact correlation to what I experienced. I am not so arrogant to think I am the only one or that the universe is so random that things just had to line up for someone and so why not me.

The Kaballah too has the tree of life of the stages of spiritual growth. What I know best is Catholic and Taoist. I have been getting a little disturbed recently because watching some programs on Egyptian temple got me seeing the same mystical symbolism as is in my local church. It is all about alchemy. Maybe its a function of sacred geometry to point out what you are already looking for.

(As a side note-Do you know sacred geometry? I was blown away when I realized Tai Chi was full of the spirals and numbers of life. It seems much more pure than that seen in the Luxor temple in Egypt, the Great Temple at Anghor Wat or in my local Catholic church. Thats another thing that disturbs me.)

All this points to a consistent method of developing the total human being with confirmatory signs. Its a map. Why would you think I would confuse mile markers with the destination? I want to get to Downtown and I know three land marks that are supposed to be on the road. I see the first two but now I stop and ask directions because I think I have gone too far and ask about the third. But you tell me I am getting lost in the landmarks? Or that the landmarks change from person to person? Or the first two landmarks I did see were wrong?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

You may find some useful direction at the link below. The previous art director had better taste, but.. the text is consistent with the instruction i have been blessed to receive.. Navigate the pages on the left of the screen...

http://sivasakti.com/

Be Well..

[DarinHamel]

Greetings..

You may find some useful direction at the link below. The previous art director had better taste, but.. the text is consistent with the instruction i have been blessed to receive.. Navigate the pages on the left of the screen...

http://sivasakti.com/

Be Well..
Sweet Holy Mother of God! I dont mean to offend or act like a prude but maybe a warning before sending me to a tantra site? I am a no sex before marraige christian, one of those conservative types you have no doubt heard about. No tantra sites for me.:eek:

So what was the experience that Scott said you had TaiChiBob?

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Darin,

I do not mean to imply you are getting lost in the landmarks. I am intending to caution you not too. Please remember I know essentially nothing about you, only what you have typed here. I can only discuss cautions and topics and situations of which I have some knowledge. I can only understand what you explain to me. If my impression is wrong I rely upon you to correct my impression.

I am fascinated by the fact that your experiences are conforming strictly to the time periods outlined. I think I understand your concern now. Your personal experiences seem to have ALWAYS conformed to the time period specified by the system you follow so naturally you would wonder, why not now? All I can say is in my experience everything comes in its own time. Nothing else in life conforms strictly to a predetermined time line. It is not a natural process of Tao to have a strict timeline for anything. Puberty for example occurs around the same time for most individuals, however if we observe the process closely we would see that within that time period there is wide variation. I had a friend in high school that did not even start puberty until he was over 18 while I had another friend that had completed his transition by aged 14. At age 14 he had more hair on his body than I have now, LOL!! So by observing life/Tao we see signs everywhere that there is no fixed time period for anything. I cannot guarantee how long it would take you to bench press 300# or to memorize a specific item. There is personal variation for everything based upon an individual’s unique temperament, inclinations, motivations, genetic make up, etc.

It seems reasonable to question your method and wonder if you have miscalculated or done something incorrectly. It is possible that your experiences are so conforming because you expect them too, or it may just be you happen to conform strictly to the specified time by your nature. You appear to be very dedicated.

I would recommend introspecting into your own mind and evaluate yourself; be patient and wait to see what happens. I don’t think I have anything else to offer you because your strict adherence to the timelines specified by your practice is outside my personal experience and insight. Please be sure to let us know if your expected outcome does occur and when I would be fascinated to know about it.

[DarinHamel]

Going along the Christian modality then I am past due. Going on the Taoist one I am due on June 4-10 or the end of July.

I have struggled with Tao vs Christ in my mind for years. Its even in my dreams where I die and have to choose an after life building that looks like a dojo or a church.

I decided to let life pick it last year and which ever model was the accurate one I would throw myself completely into. What if both are wrong?

Am I the only one who constantly obsesses on spiritual matters? I meditate 4hours a day. I go to mass every day. I practice Tai Chi every day. I continually read the various worlds spiritual classics. I have no interest in dating. I dont have a TV. It seems that nothing matters but God to me. All my life people tell me there is more to life than God. I have never believed them.

[Nexus]

It is not a natural process of Tao to have a strict timeline for anything.

Scott, can you elaborate on that? For example, while it may not be a natural process of the tao, perhaps it is an unnatural process of the tao? Or must all processes of the tao be natural ones?

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Darin,

I don’t think it is fair for anyone else to define your life for you. It is up to you to find your own path. While your dedication is not common behavior it is not necessarily abnormal where abnormal is defined as unhealthy behavior.

It is not what you do, but why you do it that determines whether it is unhealthy or not. If you are running away from life then it could be considered unhealthy. In this case your dedication could be a coping mechanism you are using to avoid unpleasant experiences of life. Rather than learning to cope with life you may be avoiding experiences that will allow you to grow in other ways. However, if it is a coping mechanism that is also a benefit in some manner then it is certainly better than watching TV all day, getting drunk, using drugs, partying all the time or going nuts because you have no other effective coping mechanism. In other words, if the benefits out weigh the detriments then it is providing a net good for you, but it is up to you to determine this for yourself. One way to help you identify you motivations is to introspect into your mind when you have a choice to train or attended another activity. If you choose to train because you are avoiding the activity then your training may be an escape from life. If you choose to train because attaining your goal is more important than the other activity then what you are doing is exercising self-discipline.

If your dedication is due to your natural inclination or interest then why would it be any different than anyone else pursuing their interests? An Olympic athlete may spend 8-14 hours a day pursuing their activity of choice. The gains they achieve have limits; they are transient benefits that pass away with time. Spiritual gains are eternal. That is why the Bible says store your treasures in heaven, not on earth.

There is also such a thing as over doing it. Life occurs in ebbs and flows; Yin and Yang cycles. I personally refer to it as equilibrium (balance) versus disequilibrium (imbalance). Growth is stimulated by disequilibrium. When we experience disequilibrium it is uncomfortable, unpleasant and this motivates us to regain our equilibrium. Equilibrium stimulates growth by motivating change, a change within us that is hopefully for the better. If we didn’t change we would not regain the balance we seek. So disequilibrium motivates us to change, but we must choose a change that benefits us not one that hinders growth. So for example if a person chooses to deal with their disequilibrium by getting drunk to numb the discomfort, this can be seen as a non-productive change since it does not involve growth for personal betterment. A simpler way to explain all of this is to say, stress causes change! Change equals growth. But after growth come rest which occurs during the return to balance.

After equilibrium is regained there follows a period of rest; equilibrium is rest. This appears to be a period of non-activity, but it is actually time where the lessons gained from the period of disequilibrium are fermented, strengthened and internalized into our being. Following a period of balance another destabilizing event will occur to motivate further change. If we push ourselves too hard for too long we fall into a state similar to physical overtraining, but in this case it is emotional overtraining. When this occurs we lose ground because we force a continuous disequilibrium that exceeds our endurance causing a ccondition that reduces or reverses growth.

There is no reason to choose between Christianity and Taoism. Both are merely useful expedients. They are methods of developing spirit. Neither is better or worse than the other and both may be misapplied, misunderstood and abused. If an individual truly understood the deepest meanings of the major religions they would discover they all seek to achieve the same purpose. The surface rules and rituals are for the many who do not have the aptitude for deeper meanings. Each religion merely uses different tools (rituals) and metaphor according to the culture from which they originated. They are just different fingers pointing to the same moon. Tools, the finger pointing to the moon, become unnecessary, once we discover the moon.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Ben,

LOL!!! Good question!

It all depends upon which perspective one chooses to view the processes of Tao. On a grand scale, the scale of the Absolute, there are no unnatural processes. It is impossible for something to occur outside Tao; therefore all phenomena are part of Tao and a natural process.

On a local level, the level of human experience, we may speak of natural and un-natural processes. This is merely and expedient or perhaps you could call it a technicality that is used to describe processes that follow or do not follow the principles of tzu-jan and wu-wei which are characteristics of natural, non-forced spontaneously arising phenomena. From this perspective one may push the river which while may not actually be out of accord with Tao from the Absolute perspective, it could be considered un-natural in that the act does not accommodate itself to a non-forced, spontaneously arising process.

It appears to be a paradox and in a sense it is but it is all a matter of perspective. Think of it in terms of clouds in the sky. They are merely clouds, but my mind may project onto the clouds a recognizable image. The nature of clouds is to form spontaneously following the principles of the nature of hydrology, tzu-jan and wu-wei. The forms I perceive when looking at the clouds are a natural process of my mind. The natural process of clouds is to be inherently without geometrically identifiable shape. It is a natural process of the mind to form coherent images out of seeming incoherent shapes. While it is un-natural from this perspective for clouds to spontaneously form coherent geometrical shapes, it is natural for the mind to perceive them through projection onto the cloud from within itself. While it is natural for clouds to form incoherent shapes is it un-natural for the mind to not project onto the cloud from within itself. Even if the mind does not project a coherent geometric image it will still spontaneously attempt to form a geometric consistency. This is because it is the nature of the mind to do so.

This is a difficult topic to describe and I am not sure I done so adequately, but I hope it is understandable.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Ben again,

I have had a chance to get some sleep so let me try again from a different perspective.

Let us say a tragic event has occurred. Let us say a parent loses their child. The “natural” tendency of a human is to react by crying due to this loss. This natural human reaction occurs due to the emotional attachment of the parent which creates the sense of loss when the child dies and this motivates tears to express the sense of loss. So when a parent loses a child crying is a natural response. Not crying while uncommon is not necessarily un-natural because it may also be a coping mechanism wherein the person numbs their feelings because the emotions are too large to handle. However, if one feels the impulse to cry and forces themselves NOT to cry, from one perspective this would be an un-natural act. In this circumstance un-natural would mean to go against a spontaneously arising expression of emotion. Since crying is a healthy expression of intense emotion the act of forcing oneself not to cry could be viewed as unhealthy and therefore un-natural. Since it is a tendency for humans to seek their own higher good and they are ignoring a process that brings into being this higher good it may also be seen to be un-natural from that perspective as well.

Now, due to a person’s temperament it may common for them to suppress their emotions, in other words it may be a natural process of their temperament to resist spontaneous expressions of emotion. So in this instance the suppression of emotion may be a natural act for this individual in that they are following their personality inclinations. However, since the act involves forcing emotions down against their natural tendency to be expressed it is inherently un-natural from one perspective while natural to the individual from another.

To a person viewing the tragic event from the Absolute perspective the impulse to cry “because” of the tragic event would not necessarily occur. This would be because the event is perceived from a perspective of understanding that no one actually died; death is a natural occurrence of life, the spirit is eternal, etc. This act of not crying would be considered natural because the same event is viewed from a different perspective and under this circumstance the need for emotional expression most likely would not occur as a reaction to the death. However, this person MAY still cry. In this circumstance the crying might be caused by compassion for the sense of loss experienced by those who are unable to perceive the event from the Absolute perspective. This occurs to me at times in my practice of Nursing. When I have a patient that dies, I am many time relieved for the patient. Perhaps they were in pain, perhaps they were ready to die, perhaps they were in a vegetative state, etc. I perceive the death as a release for the patient from their suffering. However, the family members who suffer the loss perceive the event as the loss of their beloved family member. When witnessing their pain and sorrow I am often moved to tears out of compassion for the pain they are experiencing.

These illustrations demonstrate to us that an act, event or process is natural or un-natural according to the perspective one chooses to view it and the reason or motivation behind "why' the event or process occured. Sometimes when we use the term natural we are referring to “common” processes. That is, what is most likely to occur as observed over time. If an event occurs outside the anticipate time period and is statistically unlikely to have occurred we may refer to the event as un-natural from that perspective, but once again from the perspective of the Absolute, just the fact the event occurred means it occurred naturally.

My statement: “It is not a natural process of Tao to have a strict timeline for anything” refers to processes of growth as observed over time. The example I gave of puberty is an example that illustrates the point. While puberty occurs at a generally consistent period of time within the lives of all animals, it does not occur at the “SAME” time for “ALL” individuals. Within a general time period there is a wide fluctuation as illustrated by my two high school friends who had widely differing times of puberty. One was essentially done by aged 14 while the other didn’t even begin until around 18.

In Taoist thought acts are considered un-natural when they occur out of accord with the principles of wu-wei and tzu-jan. Wu-wei may be simplistically defined as “without effort” or according to the path of least resistance, while Tzu-jan may be simplistically defined as occurring naturally, or of its own nature. According to these principles, an act that does not occur naturally is one that is contrived, that is artificially modified by an act of will. Under this definition only man or sentient beings (as far as we know) may behave out of accord with Tao. This is because we have a will that allows us to choose actions there are contrary to the natural spontaneous flow of Tao. Within this we may consider a sub-set view that it is a natural expression of man to act against the flow of Tao and therefore it is actually a natural act and not an un-natural act to behave against the flow of Tao. This is a return to the Absolute perspective. At any rate an illustration of an act out of accord with Tao, a contrived or artificial act, would be to suspend ones time of puberty using artificial means such as drugs or to stimulate the arising of puberty using artificial drugs. Since the body has a natural process and that process is artificially tampered with, in this case without an imperative medical need for it, the act may be seen as contrived, out of accord with Tao and un-natural.

[DarinHamel]

Scott,
That last post was brilliant. What do you do for a living? Are you a serious Taoist? Whats your educational background?

"Natural vs Un-natural has always been my test of truth for things. I put things back to and try to imagine "If I was on a deserted island my entire life what would I do?" It seems that some forms of meditation/practice would happen naturally and others would not. Although I never want to throw out the baby with the bathwater, or the immortal child with the purification ritual as the case may be.

When I was living alone in the woods and practicing meditation/Taiji for hours upon hours I was getting realizations/revelations about nature/natural-ness. I think I was getting tuned to Tao.

But the money ran out and now I am living in Detroit and still practicing meditation/Taiji for hours upon hours and I now get revelations/realizations on Egypt-Masonic connected conspiracies and all sorts of other crap. The past couple years I have really delved into the Catholic Way and meditate only in a Church with great sacred architecture. But now I am seeing connections and coorospondences everywhere I look nowadays to a world wide conspiracy. Even though I know its not real I still see it.

I just put in for a few weeks off in August to go commune with a Northern Michigan state forest. Next week I am going up for four day weekend (crazy this weekend) just for a brief hello. I think environment is king with regards to mysicism. We project too much of ourselves on the world and cities inflate the ego like nothing else. Since our mind interpret Tao I have learned to be extra careful.

So seriously are you a Taoist priest or something?

Darin

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Darin,

Thank you for your kind comments. I am just a regular guy with aptitudes and inclinations like yourself and many others, although mine are slightly different than yours. I am more of a contemplator, but I do meditate as well. I have studied Tao, Zen and Hindu thought since I was about 15 or so; also mythology, philosophy and other topics of interest to me. That makes it about 32 years now of study and application. I simply observe patterns and see how they apply to life. I am not a priest, but I probably would be a monk of some kind if the opportunity had wandered into my life and I could have done it while following my own path. I have two boys one soon to be 10 and one soon to be 15; divorced for 5 years and remarried for 1.

I have worked in many different jobs, but nursing is the one I do now. While I work as a nurse, I do not consider it my life and I do not gain any self-identity from it. It is merely a livelihood.

I do not consider myself a Taoist. This is because labels imply a fixed definition. If I say I am a Taoist it means one thing to one person and something else to another and even something else to me. None of these would be an accurate definition. Even labeling myself a student of Tao carries with it a definition, but it is more of an amorphous definition and humans want to give labels to one and other. If I had to label myself I suppose I would say I am a philosopher.

While I consider myself a student of Tao and a student of Zen I am also a student of life. As I have said, I observe patterns of life and try to see how they integrate into other patterns. It seems to be my natural inclination to do so and I was doing it spontaneously before I even knew I was doing it. At some point in my early 30’s or so the patterns started to make sense to me. That is the patterns seemed to integrate for me into an understandable cohesion. I have some college but never finished due to family responsibilities. I may return soon, or not, depending upon which way the wind blows.

I would try not to get too caught up with concerns about local or world-wide conspiracies. While they may be interesting to study, if they truly exist, there is nothing you can do about it and it will only cause fear, concern or distraction from more productive pursuits. Life is very much like the movie Matrix. There will always be a matrix or pattern of social control. I call it the world system. Life (man) would create one if one did not exist. This is because we require a relatively fixed pattern or context in which to relate to one and other. Once Tao became TWO, Yin and Yang, all forms of matrixes became inherent within nature. The division of the ONE into TWO was the first matrix. This is why the Tao Te Ching says, “…from two came three and from three came ten thousand things.” (verse 42). Groups of men may believe they control the world system, but in the end it all follows Tao, let them play in their own illusion. It is more productive to learn to rise above the matrix so it does not affect you. Be in the world, but not of the world, as it is said!

Remember that realizations should always be measured or tempered with reason. Some would disagree with this, but Yang (reason) carries equal value with Yin (direct experience). One does not prevail over the other; they are mutually arising. Experiences are integrated into our life using reason which allows us to discover a meaning that provides value or quality to the experience. If your experiences cannot be integrated into your life in a meaningful way their value is limited. Realizations that cannot be understood now may become understandable later in the light of greater experience and maturity. Realizations also change over time, their meaning frequently deepens. As we grow, an apparent Truth may appear to have changed; it hasn’t changed its meaning is merely understood within a greater context and this is may be considered a deepening of understanding.

[DarinHamel]

Scott,

I wanted to address this one quote of yours- " I can say if you view your practice as too difficult to repeat it doesn’t seem worth the effort in the first place."

I dont have the ambition to repeat Basic Training or Ranger school again either. Doesn't mean they weren't worth the effort in the first place. Some things are just once in a lifetime things. In fact either would kill me again.

I just had to point this out because it might be the one place you were wrong and I need to salvage some pride to repair my ego.

Darin

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Darin,

No problem! ;)

It was not my intention to be critical or discouraging, only to challenge what might be self-imposed limitations upon your capabilities. Perhaps my statement lacked some delicacy, for that I apologize!

[DarinHamel]

Hi Darin,

No problem! ;)

It was not my intention to be critical or discouraging, only to challenge what might be self-imposed limitations upon your capabilities. Perhaps my statement lacked some delicacy, for that I apologize!
So you not admitting you were wrong? I was mistaken again?:(
Uhg...my pride hurts. I need a band-aid.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Darin,

This is not a competition; it is only a friendly conversation between two individuals who share an interest in similar things. :)

I do not expect to be correct about everything. All I can do is suggest things according to my limited understanding and knowledge. Perhaps I was wrong; perhaps I was right, that is not my concern. My concern is to stimulate you to think about it and perhaps consider your views from a different perspective. I really don’t know you so I cannot and should not tell you what to do or how to think. You must evaluate your views and the possible limitations you impose upon yourself. I am not challenging you personally, only challenging you to think outside your box. We all have our own self-imposed limitations. We are all trapped inside a box of our own making. The box serves a useful purpose, it provides us with a foundation and structure which we use to organize our thoughts, beliefs and goals, but it may also eventually trap us inside limiting our growth. Change and growth comes when we find ourselves in circumstances that challenge our fixed views and beliefs.

This circumstance is not unique to only you; it occurs with everyone, even me!! It is just that some of us understand the game and attempt to transcend it all the while understanding that to transcend it is to find ourselves inside yet another box that will eventually require transcending as well.

Try to have some fun with it! Think of is as a challenging game. Your views have been challenged. That does not make them wrong, but neither does it make them right. They are merely your views and goals. Remember that change and growth occur when we find ourselves in disequilibrium. If you are finding yourself in this circumstance, view it as an opportunity to grow in new and unanticipated ways. It can be fun, but also a bit scary too! The unknown is always a bit scary, but that is what makes life exciting as well. If we already knew everything there would be no surprises, no excitement no change and no growth.

Please do not think that I am not challenged or find opportunities for change and growth resulting from our conversation. I do, they may not be apparent to you, but they do exist!;)

I am off to bed now! I work nights so I need my nap, but I will be happy to continue our conversation later if you like.:)

[Nexus]

Scott,

Tonight I arrived at a birthday party of a stranger (to me) who was aquianted with a friend of mine. Around 12 of us were outside on the lawn singing him happy birthday and slicing up the cake when he mentioned that we would have a water balloon fight after the cake. Before I had registered his comments completely, a pink and blue ball flew past my head and struck someone nearby. The water balloon fight had begun (someone had taken it upon themselves to start chucking water balloons at the group of us) and we were getting hit left and right! Immediately after being nearly struck in the head the birthday boy and myself rushed the water balloon buckets (they had about 100 mini-balloons). Grabbed balloons and started tossing them, everyone joined in almost immediately following that and before I knew it, we were all soaked and tossing balloons wildly. It was a lot of fun and I really cannot remember the last time I was in a water balloon fight. Loved it!

Congratulations on the 1 year of marriage. You tied the knot again, good man! A teenager and a 10 year old, what a handful! Water balloon fights at their next birthday party! LOL!

Best Wishes

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Ben,

Thank you for the best wishes!

Water ballons!!! A most excellent idea! Their Birthday's are July 2nd and July 3rd. They are exactlly 5 years apart and each other's best friend. I have never seen two siblings get along so well. Almost never and argument. I am very blessed.

I'll try to remember to let you know how it goes!!:)

[DarinHamel]

I probably shouldn't post this yet since it is still a work in progress but I have already cut a vein in these posts so I might as well spread some of my soul as well. This is the introduction to a booklet I am putting together for my future Taijiquan classes. I am on a teaching break at the moment to finish or at least bring to conclusion my experiment in Taoist Alchemy.


Immortality

Taoists teach that we are not born immortal. Our souls are undifferentiated energy flowing from the source of all life everywhere sometimes called the Tao and returns undifferentiated after death to this original source. Our animating life energy is “borrowed” and it is not “us”. Much like we say that is my Bank because our money is there, but we do not own it. Likewise our minds are not immortal. They begin to form in the womb and only the strongest can endure after death, but even these only endure for a short time in their self created heavens and hells. Taoist alchemy teaches that immortality is something that must be achieved through the hard work of bringing into union the mind and the soul. It is the synthesis of the mind and soul that transforms the mortal physical body stage by stage into an immortal one.


Taoist Alchemy

Prerequisites: For the entire thirteen years you must abstain from meats, grains, sex, plus no losing your sexual essence in any either through self stimulation or dreams, and you must observe the continual practice of the ascending grades of meditation.

10 Months of deep breathing exercises and one pointed Dan Tien focusing meditation to transform sexual essence into Qi (internal energy) within the lower belly. Confirmatory signs- Begins with feeling the internal energy and controlling it with breath and intent to condense it into the bones and then lead it up the spine using the reverse flowing method into the head and to the pineal gland which produces a vision of blazing white light (achieved April 24th , 1994)

3 Years of eyes closed emptiness meditation transforming internal energy into internal power at the solar plexus. Confirmatory signs- Begins when a tiny spirit body comes from the belly and exits out of the forehead (achieved June 6th, 1994) that is the birth of the immortal child which then returns to the belly to be nurtured. Fifty days later after the birth of the baby shen a vision of the quintessence/original nature off all things is seen (achieved July 27th, 1994) and this achievement is the first stage of immortality according to Taoists. If all ends here you will be reborn after death to continue your practice with full knowledge of your past life Then at the end of the three year period the tiny body once again exits the forehead this time weaker and somewhat wispy. (achieved June 6th, 1997).

9 Years of eyes open mindfulness meditation “being the calm center amidst the chaos of activity” which begins with the alchemical process rising into the center of the brain where it transforms the internal power into Void - Confirmatory signs- Red Sparks blazing before the inner vision means the activity has moved from the lower elixir field to the middle one and at the end of the spray of sparks is an amber glow like a burning ember (achieved December 25th 1997). SPECULATION: Finally the void body exits the top of the head and enters a world of pure being and endless light. Upon the return of this small body which has absorbed some of that endless light, it transmits that light to the physical body and it too will radiate light transforming it stage by stage into a body of pure energy.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

DarinHamel: Humble apologies if the referenced site offends you.. that was not my intention.. people see what they choose to see, i see a site that offers ancient and proven techniques for utilizing some of our most powerful energies.. you see offensive material... I suggest that you see past your prejudices and look for the wisdoms of energy cultivation and manipulation.. the Taoist and Buddhist Tantric practices are not dependent upon sexual practices.. the heightened sensual experiences are a by-product of the discipline, and.. considering that the human is "hard-wired" for sexual procreation, it is reasonable to expect a heightened awareness in this area..

I ask my students to recall how much physical activity they expend during their intimate encounters, then compare it to a workout at the gym.. Tantra is a discipline that seeks to utilize the incredible energies of our sexual nature in all aspects of living.. there are ways to make every activity as intense as the intimate ones.. it's quite remarkable.. The site referenced uses the most common experience shared between humans, sexuallity, to illustrate the cultivation and careful manipulation of energies that can greatly enhance your experience of living.. but, it does not imply that "sex" will do that.. (it sure helps, though ;) )..

I had hoped to offer you insights into very powerful energies and their usefulness in our everyday lives.. ways to conserve, cultivate and distribute those energies..

Now, i will offer some "Bobisms"... "God" is simply a word that points to supreme spiritual awareness, not some cosmic puppeteer".. "God" is a word that carries way too much religious and social baggage..

"God"?.. whose "God"? is one culture's "God" superior to another".. religions are merely different cultural interpretations of simple spiritual awareness...

We are not these aging bodies, we are the eternal energy that animates them.. we are like snowflakes, unique patterns of exactly the same stuff.. energy/spirit/"God".. We are ALL son's (and daughters) of "God", Jesus simply had the awareness and will to claim his birthright..

Scott is as grounded and responsible a poster as i have seen on these forums, you will do well to consider his commentary with an open mind.. and i agree with the aversion to labels.. the description is not the thing, do we eat the menu?

Be well...

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Yikes!! i just read the post of your upcoming pamphlet..

In a great analogy by an author i can't remember: You can engineer and build the world's greatest bridge.. or, you can just walk across the waters.. the choice is yours alone..

Be well..

[DarinHamel]

Greetings..

Yikes!! i just read the post of your upcoming pamphlet..

In a great analogy by an author i can't remember: You can engineer and build the world's greatest bridge.. or, you can just walk across the waters.. the choice is yours alone..

Be well..
Walk across the waters? I suppose thats good for individual with that special ability but wouldn't a good solid bridge be better for the common man.

[DarinHamel]

See past my predudices? You know if I was telling people to see past theirs and accept Jesus Christ as their personal lord I would most likely get flamed and rightly so. People have different perspectives that should be respected. There are those who think that sex and drugs can bring them closer to God or help them realize enlightenment. I am not one of them but I would not push my beliefs on another.

I am not upset though it may seem that way. I am just mystified that the "so called" open minded tend to think everyone is ok unless they are a conservitive christian. Then your wrong or in the least need to see past our predudices.

Even if I left the Church my moral code would stand on its own since I have studied the "Natural Laws" behind it. I swear when I read natural law theory I think I am reading Taoist classics.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

DarinHamel: It's your choice.. you will define yourself as you choose.. Your interpretation of Taoist Alchemy is interesting. You've chosen to accept a particular interpretation, i have chosen another..

The universe does exactly what we believe it will.. according to how much we actually believe.. it has no care for ritual or games, only the depth of knowing..

Be well..

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Darin: I have no interest in your religious inclinations, that's your business and i respect it.. you put forth some religious interpretations and so did i..

The prejudice refers to your interpretation of the referenced website's information.. if you chose to see past your interpretation of "sex" you would see some powerful information very relevant to some of the info you have posted.. only trying to be helpful..

Be well...

[DarinHamel]

TaiChiBob,
Your right and I apologize. I have staked the last 20 years of my life on what I believe is "Alchemy" and I took what you said personally. Once again I apologize.
Darin

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Darin: Humble thanks, but.. no apologies necessary.. we are all in this together, my intentions are always helpful (regardless of how they may sometimes appear).. i wish you nothing but the best in you journies...

Be well..

[Scott R. Brown]

Scott is as grounded and responsible a poster as i have seen on these forums, you will do well to consider his commentary with an open mind.. and i agree with the aversion to labels.. the description is not the thing, do we eat the menu?

Thanks Bob.:)



I have staked the last 20 years of my life on what I believe is "Alchemy"...
Darin

Hi Darin,

It is in our best interest to try to rise above attachment to our personal worldview. I think of each consciousness as a different facet of an Eternal, Infinite Jewel. Each facet reflects its experiences in a different way which through its unique perspective adds value and quality to the gestalt of the Infinite Jewel. Each perspective (facet) benefits the whole. When we share our personal worldview with others just the act of sharing adds value to all those hearing or reading it. Some may disagree, some may agree, some may think about it and modify their personal view, etc. but each person that hears or reads it is changed in some manner. Sharing our views causes ripples, like a pebble being tossed into a pond, which interacts with and affects all the other ripples in the pond.

The views of others do not negate the value of our own. Since we each have our own personal limitations interacting with others helps us transcend our limitations by exposing us to different ways of viewing the same phenomena. This will add value and quality to our perspective if we allow it too.

The following is only my view and not meant to diminish or de-value your chosen path.

Your pamphlet is interesting! It pretty much reprises what you have been saying about your purpose and experiences so far. I don’t really agree with the Taoist Alchemy’s perspective. It is my view that it does not follow the principles of Tao, but attempts to artificially achieve something that will occur naturally anyway. It isn’t the practices I disagree with, but the stated purpose the practices are meant to achieve. It isn’t what you do, but why you do it that matters!

If Tao follows a spontaneously arising process of life (actually Tao IS the spontaneously arising process of life) then all an individual need do is accommodate themselves to that process and they become a part of it. When we become a part of something we automatically receive the benefits/qualities of the whole! By accommodating ourselves to Tao we receive all the qualities of Tao, including eternity/immortality! When I say accommodate it seems to imply there is something a person must do, an action that must be performed, but this is not the case. If an action is performed externally only, without the correct attending attitude, then the actions are not in accord with Tao. They are artificial and contrived. It isn’t performing external actions that cause one to be in accord with Tao; it is our attitude that causes this state of being to arise. This state of accord arises spontaneously in accordance with the principle of tzu-jan, that is it occurs spontaneously and “of its self”. Remember it isn’t what we do, but why we do it that matters the most! If our mind is pure then the actions that follow will be pure as well.

Accommodating ourselves to Tao does not arise from artificial, contrived actions, but grow from the inside out following the principles of tzu-jan and wu-wei. So to become in accord with Tao it is the attitude one adopts/accepts that is of most significance. By adopting/accepting the proper attitude actions occur in accord with Tao naturally and spontaneously. The way we acquire this “proper” attitude is through realization. That is, we “realize” there is no other way to act. It happens anyway! We are always in accord with Tao; it is that we “think” we are not in accord or do not “realize” that we are in accord that creates what “appears” to be a separation from Tao. It is similar to the Christian principle of accepting Christ as your savior. It is said that Grace is a gift from God, but one must accept the gift in order for one to receive the benefits of that gift. The fact is we are all in God’s Grace. The only thing that separates us from this Grace is some accept it (realize it) and some don’t. It is the same with Tao, some realize we are in accord with Tao and some do not. Realization changes our perspective and when our perspective changes, we change. But the change is subtle and internal. Our actions may appear the same from the outside, but the internal motivation for performing the actions changes and therefore the quality of the results change. When D. T. Suzuki was asked the difference between realization and everyday life he said, there is no difference except you feel you are about 6 inches off the ground. This is just another way of saying, “It is the same, but different!” The change is internal and only noticeable to those with insight. Most others would not see much of a difference. This is why in Zen it was necessary for a Master to acknowledge the change in one who had just attained realization. Without insight others cannot perceive or understand the internal transformation that has occured.

To me, if a person is applying the principles of Taoist Alchemy with the purpose of attaining immortality then their motivation is in error. We are already immortal; we just don’t realize or accept it, just as we are already in accord with Tao or already in God’s Grace, but do not realize or accept it. If I do not recognize I possess a gift it is the same thing as not having it at all.

Taoist Alchemy involves actions. Those actions may assist in transforming the attitude/perspective; if this occurs then the actions are of benefit. But if one becomes too preoccupied and focused on external practices and is not internally transformed then the actions have no benefit. Actions, rituals are tools meant to assist in internal realization/transformation. It is the realization/transformation that provides eternal benefits, not the actions.

I am not attempting to convince you to discard your practice of Taoist Alchemy, but to broaden your perspective concerning it. If you recall I consider it merely another “useful expedient”. You seem to have an emotional attachment to the practice. This is an assumption on my part and I recognize I may be incorrect, but you as much as said so when you mentioned your 20 years of investment in the practice. After such a dedicated investment of time and energy who wouldn’t feel some sense of attachment? With 20 years investment it may be difficult to consider a different manner of approaching the subject. Healthy commitment to a goal is a benefit, unhealthy attachment is a hindrance. In fact there is no reason to change your practice, the only thing that may change is your understanding about what you are attempting to accomplish. This change would be a deepening, not a discarding, of your present understanding.

These are just some thoughts meant to stimulate you to think and consider other ways of looking at Tao and your practice.

[DarinHamel]

This is one of those proof is in the pudding things. We wont know for sure until our hearts stop beating. When I started I assumed everyone was wrong and that I would have to blaze my own path. I promised I wouldn't trust the "burning in the breast" of the Mormans or the just have "faith" of my Church, the "It's Tradition" or the Jews and I am sure the Buddhists have one too.

Perhaps because I was raised in a tradition of such strict blind obedience that I take such a pragmatic approach to sprirituality. If I find someone saying you can build something called internal power by breathing exercises and that I can test the Qi then I will try it, which I did and it worked. Its one of the reasons I prefer Taijiquan over Yoga. I need constant feedback since I lack trust in authority.

We are very different in our approach but I think I am moving into your approach more and more. I remember the story of Buddha where he strived and strived and finally let it go and became enlightened. Would he have gotten enlightened without the striving?

I think striving is an early part of the process. There is a saying in western alchemy that goes, "Nature unaided fails". I take this to mean that in order to achieve our highest possible state we need contrivances to get us going.

Now for the important question. Doesn't this forum have spell check?

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Darin,

That sounds like a healthy attitude. I would agree about the contrivances. It is just another word for "useful expedient".

There is quiet a bit of research now days on life after death. There has even been substantial research into reincarnation wherein children have been interviewed when they have remembered a past life and the information has been checked against known facts. There have been repeated studies. The researchers are not crack pots, but credentialed psychologists and pyschiatrists. So while it is not a hard science, there is mounting and substantial evidence to demonstrate that life after death exists. The majority of reports demonstrate a consistency of experience regardless of the indfividual's age, culture and religion.

I will be happy to recommend authors if you are interested.

[DarinHamel]

Thanks for the offer of recomondations but I am going to take some time off striving. No reading, no marathon meditations and no trying to figure out how the world works. I am going to just take walks without destinations for a while. Sounds like a Taoist pilgramage.

I'm also going to keep on discussing Taoist and Tai Chi stuff. Dao or Tao?

[Scott R. Brown]

Cool! I look forward to it!;)

[neilhytholt]

Yeah, I don't know, Scott. IMHO you are missing the picture.

"When I say accommodate it seems to imply there is something a person must do, an action that must be performed, but this is not the case. If an action is performed externally only, without the correct attending attitude, then the actions are not in accord with Tao. They are artificial and contrived. It isn’t performing external actions that cause one to be in accord with Tao;"

Of course, what did Lao Tzu say, "Lao Tzu states, 'The Tao that can be spoken is not the real Tao."

IMHO your stance is one that is quite common in 'Vissapana' meditation circles, Zen and Chan Buddhism, etc. Which is you just sit there, and enlightenment will somehow just 'happen' to you.

Then people have some thinking view of something and think, "Oh, this is what enlightenment must be." And they write books about the philosophy of Zen and crap like that.

I guess if the Tao is thinking you know the Tao then these people must be really smart.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

In a great line from "The Last Samurai", Katzumodo, after looking for the "perfect" Cherry Blossom.. realizes in his dying moment.. "they are all perfect".. And, so it is with Tao.. it is ALL Tao.. undifferentiated, complete and whole.. regardless of how we may perceive our actions, they are the universe experiencing and expressing itself, Tao.. The "way" things are....

The only variable is our awareness of it...

Be well...

[dwid]

IMHO your stance is one that is quite common in 'Vissapana' meditation circles, Zen and Chan Buddhism, etc. Which is you just sit there, and enlightenment will somehow just 'happen' to you.

Then people have some thinking view of something and think, "Oh, this is what enlightenment must be." And they write books about the philosophy of Zen and crap like that.

I guess if the Tao is thinking you know the Tao then these people must be really smart.

Zen and Vipassana are from totally separate types of Buddhism with quite different approaches and outlooks from what I've read and experienced in participating in activities of and discussing with practitioners of both. I think, if there is a similarity that approximates the one you describe here it is the idea of creating the conditions in which enlightened thought and action are possible. Meditation is not so much the road to enlightenment as the gym in which one develops the muscles that make enlightened thought/action possible. Of course, Shunryu Suzuki once wrote that correct practice of meditation is itself a form of enlightenment, so I guess there's that, but I think your simplification paints an unfair picture of these practices.

[neilhytholt]

Zen and Vipassana are from totally separate types of Buddhism with quite different approaches and outlooks from what I've read and experienced in participating in activities of and discussing with practitioners of both. I think, if there is a similarity that approximates the one you describe here it is the idea of creating the conditions in which enlightened thought and action are possible. Meditation is not so much the road to enlightenment as the gym in which one develops the muscles that make enlightened thought/action possible. Of course, Shunryu Suzuki once wrote that correct practice of meditation is itself a form of enlightenment, so I guess there's that, but I think your simplification paints an unfair picture of these practices.

I'm sure an ape would think that human representations of his behavior are unfair as well, but that doesn't mean he can write like Shakespeare or build cars.

Anyways, whatever. If these people are happy sitting around and thinking they have all the answers, then who am I to argue with them?

[dwid]

Sounds like you've had some bad experiences with Buddhists.

No doubt, there are some jack@sses out there who get off on playing guru.

Still, mindfulness practice has proven benefits. There's some solid research on adapting it to treat some forms of psychiatric illness and some chronic physical illnesses as well.

[neilhytholt]

Sounds like you've had some bad experiences with Buddhists.

No doubt, there are some jack@sses out there who get off on playing guru.

Still, mindfulness practice has proven benefits. There's some solid research on adapting it to treat some forms of psychiatric illness and some chronic physical illnesses as well.

In grade school, they talk about atoms. In junior or high school they talk about protons and neutrons and electrons. Then in late high school or college they talk about quarks or neutrinos. Then in higher classes they go into field theory or string theory, and admit that actually, the phenomena cannot be easily classified and they don't know what lies beyond quarks or neutrinos.

Therefore, for somebody in grade school to chasten somebody in a grad program that there are atoms but no quarks or neutrinos is kindof dumb. For somebody in grade school to think that by staying in grade school and continuing study of atoms, that they can learn what lies beyond quarks or neutrinos is also kindof dumb.

[dwid]

I guess I'll never be a jedi.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi neilhytholt,

“The Tao that can be spoken is not the real [eternal] Tao.”


You have misunderstood Lao Tzu’s point; this is a common misunderstanding of his “DESCRIPTION” of Tao! Many think Tao is not, or cannot be described due to this line, but they miss that Lao Tzu states this and then writes an entire treatise DESCRIBING Tao, not to mention Chuang Tzu, Hui Nan Tzu, Leih Tzu and many others, including myself. :)

It is in the nature of man to describe his experiences; this is how we communicate them to others. A description is nothing but a tool we use to discover where to look when we are seeking a similar understanding or experience as others who have gone before us. Words are nothing more than a kind of map, a tool used to guide us to a particular destination; to be discarded once we have arrived. Words are the finger pointing towards Tao, but they are NOT Tao! If we did not use words to point the way it would be more difficult for others to discover where to go. Once we apprehend Tao we no longer require the description.

It is not that we do not discuss or describe Tao. It is that we are not to mistake the verbal description with the actual thing. A description is the finger pointing to the moon; it is not to be confused with the moon!

Put in simpler and more practical everyday terms, a description of the taste of an orange is NOT the taste of an orange! If I have never tasted an orange, a description may be helpful when I go about attempting to discover what an orange is and what it tastes like. Once I have tasted the orange I no longer require the description because I know its taste from direct experience.

Tao is greater than any description! No description of it will be able to come close to the direct experience of Tao, just as a description of the taste of an orange is not its actual taste! The message of Lao Tzu is, “Do not confuse the “description of Tao” with Tao!

The taste of an orange that can be spoken is not the real taste of an orange.

Once one understands this they have taken their first step towards becoming a true Jedi!!;)

[neilhytholt]

I guess I'll never be a jedi.

If your 5-year old is watching T.V., and says they want to be an astronaut, what do you tell them? That if they get excellent grades, go through years of school, and try really hard, keep in excellent physical shape, and get super-lucky, out of thousands of equally qualified applicants, that they might be chosen as an astronaut?

No, you say, "Of course you'll be an astronaut. Now it's 9:00 and your bedtime!"

[neilhytholt]

Hi neilhytholt,

You have misunderstood Lao Tzu’s point; this is a common misunderstanding of his “DESCRIPTION” of Tao! Many think Tao is not, or cannot be described due to this line, but they miss that Lao Tzu states this and then writes an entire treatise DESCRIBING Tao, not to mention Chuang Tzu, Hui Nan Tzu, Leih Tzu and many others, including myself. :)

MM - slap! :)

[dwid]

I guess I'd rather be awake than be a jedi.

[neilhytholt]

I guess I'd rather be awake than be a jedi.

Awake?

What makes you think you're awake?

If someone is aware they're thinking, does that mean they're awake? Or does it mean they're one step above a sheep?

[Scott R. Brown]

Awake?

What makes you think you're awake?

You may be asleep, but I wouldn't presume others are as well!!!;)


If someone is aware they're thinking, does that mean they're awake? Or does it mean they're one step above a sheep?

If someone thinks they are awake, does that mean they are asleep? I don’t think so! Sleep is a specific state of consciousness that is easily distinguishable from being awake.

You may be referring to the question, "Are we fully aware?" The state of "fully aware" as compared to the state of mind that most people find themselves in on a day to day basis has been compared to being awake as opposed to being asleep. That is, they fully or more completely perceive reality as opposed to having an illusory perception of the world.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The secret of the Golden Flower is there is no Golden Flower.. that is someone's description of "their" experience.. That is not to imply that their description of how they arrived at that experience is not beneficial, but.. i can only suggest that you suspend the notion that "their" experience is somehow more valid than your own and have your own experience..

Are we asleep or awake? We are here, now.. beyond that simple observation it is speculation based on preference..

Be well..

[dwid]

There's a secret garden inside all of us.:)

[DarinHamel]

I guess I'd rather be awake than be a jedi.
I'd rather be a jedi.

[DarinHamel]

Just a reminder that when Carl Jung followed the "instructions" in Willhelm's translation of the text (the first and for some time only available translation), he went a bit off the deep end for a while, and had to go back home and play with small tin soldiers until he got "better"...
I never knew he gave it a try. Did he observe all the requirements?