Wing Tsun with the mantis flare!!!!!!!!!

[SunRooster]

So my topic has much todo with the fact that I am finding so many techniques that are similar in style as much as application to a mantis fist based systems. What are your thoughts in the wing tsun family? Please be polite and respectful about this subject its just a topic. :cool: My opinion which isnt worth anything, I am only a student of the arts:Is that mantis may have influanced the hand to hand applications of wing tsun but the foot work is not influanced by mantis. I know that the foot work of mantis comes from monkey or ape techniques but I am curious where the foot work of wing tsun comes from? I am here to see the other opinions of this subject and not here to make waves so lets keep it strickly a polite conversation. Nothing off topic please and thank you.
Yours truly,
SunRooster:)

[couch]

I know that the foot work of mantis comes from monkey or ape techniques but I am curious where the foot work of wing tsun comes from?
SunRooster:)

Buddhist Monks with lots of time on their hands!!!

:),
Kenton

[Ernie]

am curious where the foot work of wing tsun comes from? SunRooster:)


As politely as i can put it , the foot work as all foot work comes from man ,,,, why people insist on reducing themselves to lower life forms amazes me !

why a MAN would imitate an insect , or any other species other then his own ,,,being that he is not built like a bug , or a rat , or a wiener dog

is well ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, stupid ! ;)

that was me being nice :D

[Vajramusti]

Wing chun hands and feet are related to wing chun structure and wing chun structure is quite unique to wing chun,. Things can look similar here and there but not be the same.

joy chaudhuri

[Matrix]

Things can look similar here and there but not be the same.Good point Joy,
People can look to the night sky and claim to see shapes (constellations) in the stars, which are totally unrelated. The human mind is very creative.

[travelsbyknight]

The wing chun I practice looks A LOT like southern mantis. Jook lum tong long pai to be exact. Uh oh! I mentioned the words jook lum. No political fights please.

Wing chun!

Fook sau is the same as mor shew from southern mantis. Also, my wing chun has a lot of bak mei in it in regards to how strikes are used. The biggest misconception about wing chun is that it ONLY uses straight chain punch blasts. Bull****e! You can attack with the edge of the thumb, phoenix fists, leapard fists, daimond fist, , hammer fists, willow leaf palms, different parts of palms, uppercuts and hook punches. I'm not even going to get into all the different kicks you can do besides the ONE cannon kick from chum kiu.

You're only limited by your imagination. I've seen wing chun that looks JUST like hung gar. When I first saw it I didn't recognize it until I saw them use tan sau and read the names of the different hands.

To call wing chun a "human" form while ignoring the "animal" aspects is very snobby in my opinionl. The animals aren't exact replicas of animals. Rather, in all gung fu styles, the animal is a concept that changes from style to style, individual to individual. If you're doing a tiger technique you don't need to have a tiger claw out. The animals are emotions and energy and movement as well as individual eagle claws or mantis hooks or what not.

What animals are wing chun made of? Hmm. Well, what does a biu jee look like? Flatten your fingers right now, straight ahead. A bil gee looks like a SNAKE HEAD. What does a bong sau look like? A BROKEN BIRD WING. Oh crap. EVeryone's eyes open. We're taught to deflect strikes and attack because a smaller person can't take strikes head on. IT WOULD BE DUMB TO TAKE A STRIKE HEAD ON. Tigers go head to head because they're gigantic and strong. Many tiger techniques go head on but also deflect depending on who uses them. Which animal isn't strong enough to take direct strikes and therefore must deflect them? THE CRANE. Slam. Another revelation. Wing chun is also made up of the crane.

Now, let's talk about the almight dragon. You know what? Let's save how wing chun incorporates the dragon until all the naysayers absorb all of the above. Laterz.

[Buddha_Fist]

What animals are wing chun made of? Hmm. Well, what does a biu jee look like? Flatten your fingers right now, straight ahead. A bil gee looks like a SNAKE HEAD. What does a bong sau look like? A BROKEN BIRD WING. Oh crap. EVeryone's eyes open. We're taught to deflect strikes and attack because a smaller person can't take strikes head on. IT WOULD BE DUMB TO TAKE A STRIKE HEAD ON. Tigers go head to head because they're gigantic and strong. Many tiger techniques go head on but also deflect depending on who uses them. Which animal isn't strong enough to take direct strikes and therefore must deflect them? THE CRANE. Slam. Another revelation. Wing chun is also made up of the crane.

Now, let's talk about the almight dragon. You know what? Let's save how wing chun incorporates the dragon until all the naysayers absorb all of the above. Laterz.

You're chasing hands with your mind.

Why the @$%@#$ do you need to keep your mind busy thinking about snakes, tigers, and snails? Wouldn't it be more direct, simple and efficient (Ving Tsun!) to talk about footwork, timing, etc. instead of talking about how your Bong Sao looks like an elephant's pinky toe?

:eek:

Oh crap - Your eyes are open now!

:rolleyes:

[Mr Punch]

I know that the foot work of mantis comes from monkey or ape techniques but I am curious where the foot work of wing tsun comes from?...What are your thoughts in the wing tsun family?Hi Sunrooster.

Before this runs 25 pages let me just say categorically that WE DON'T KNOW! The wing chun family, being like all good families, a seriously dysfunctional one, likes to bicker, but nobody actually knows the origin of wing chun. There will be several people on the board who will claim it comes from this or that, but we don't know.

This is one of the two reasons that the answer will most likely be something like 'don't worry about it, just train!' The other main reason that this answer (and various ruder variations) will come out is because chunners like to think as their art is sooooo practical these historical things don't matter and therefore they will frequently belittle people who ask such questions!

So many people forget that this
My opinion which isnt worth anything, I am only a student of the arts applies to all of us!

In more direct answer, I think Joy has it about right. Mantis hands will of course look a bit like chun hands and vice versa: there are only so many positions of the hand useful for fighting. This does not mean that one came from the other.

One poster has come out with the oft-supposed story that wing chun comes from the snake and the crane, a story for which again there is no proof, but it is often mentioned and may contain some truth.

As for the footwork, most chunners seem blind to the fact that most standard lines of wing chun footwork leave them seriously lacking in power and/or root and/or movement so try getting them to agree on a history...?!:eek:

Regards, crazy uncle Mat in the attic.

[Shaolin Fist]

Why the @$%@#$ do you need to keep your mind busy thinking about snakes, tigers, and snails? Wouldn't it be more direct, simple and efficient (Ving Tsun!) to talk about footwork, timing, etc. instead of talking about how your Bong Sao looks like an elephant's pinky toe

Actually he was just trying to answer the original question, maybe if you start another thread about footwork and timing etc then hopefully the participants might stay on the subject rather than talk about how effective a frogs leg is in combat !

If no one disputes the Shaolin origins of WC then off course the style must have in parts though not wholly derived from the Five Animals of Shaolin. Though i suppose the enventors of WC could have started from scratch just to dissociate themselves from the ugly Orangutan :D

And its also ignorant to think other Southern and Shaolin systems dont share at least the same understanding and knowlege of structures and techniques. When was the last time someone walked into a school teaching Shaolin Snake fist and tested their structures against them. You might just be oh so disappointed what you thought was 'unique' and 'ground breaking' is just basic knowlege to some.

Just as some of us cross train today, some people in the past must have done so as well. So to have been influenced by other styles is not such an improbability but who knows it all happened so many centuries ago !

[Matrix]

What animals are wing chun made of? Hmm. Well, what does a biu jee look like? Flatten your fingers right now, straight ahead. A bil gee looks like a SNAKE HEAD. What does a bong sau look like? A BROKEN BIRD WING. Oh crap. EVeryone's eyes open. .....You are not opening anyone's eyes, unfortunately. FYI, we've all heard this type of "logic" before.
If making shadow puppets on the wall inspires you in your training, then by all means continue to imagine all the animals real and imaginary (dragon) when you're training.
Just one word of caution, once you starting crowing like a rooster, you've crossed the line. ;)

[Ernie]

2 arms 2 legs , one mind [sadly filled with silk suits and shaw brothers flicks ]
cars have horse power [ but last time i looked under the hood i didn't a few hundred horses squeezed in there !]

just modern mechanics

so unless you sprout feathers , tails , some claws , a beak ,,,,,,,,,,,,

it's all just human mechanics , with human emotions , and human intent

unless your into being less then human ,,, hell throw on a furbie suit and have at it :eek:

as Bfist said chasing hands with the mind ,,,,, adding and extra step looking out side of yourself

reverse the thinking toss the animal junk out and just look at the most efficient human motion based on fighting humans

i wonder if professional athletes practice there monkey pulls head from a$$ form as part of there regiments ....:rolleyes:

and yes I'm still being polite :D

[5Animals1Path]

It's been said. People look like people doing things. There's only so much one body can do. Etc,etc.


Blah.

[jack]

Wing Chun came from Yong Chun White Crane, so foot work of wing tsun comes from white crane but it had been remodify.

[Buddha_Fist]

Actually he was just trying to answer the original question, maybe if you start another thread about footwork and timing etc then hopefully the participants might stay on the subject rather than talk about how effective a frogs leg is in combat !

:rolleyes:

OK, so what's the relationship of the original question (Where does Wing Chun's footwork come from) with what's below?


...Flatten your fingers right now, straight ahead. A bil gee looks like a SNAKE HEAD. What does a bong sau look like? A BROKEN BIRD WING. Oh crap. EVeryone's eyes open. We're taught to deflect strikes and attack because a smaller person can't take strikes head on. IT WOULD BE DUMB TO TAKE A STRIKE HEAD ON. Tigers go head to head because they're gigantic and strong. Many tiger techniques go head on but also deflect depending on who uses them. Which animal isn't strong enough to take direct strikes and therefore must deflect them? THE CRANE. Slam. Another revelation. Wing chun is also made up of the crane.

Stuff like this does not accurately discuss the mechanical characteristics of human body motions. Sure, you can spend the next 20 years doing analogies that roughly describe in general terms body mechanics... But why do you need to walk fifty times around a house before entering it, if all you wanted was entering in the first place? Wing Chun is based on a mindset that should be constantly turned on and that discerns between necessary and unnecessary.


Back to the topic:

I am sure that some of the other southern styles must have had up to a certain degree an influence on how Wing Chun has developed. Sometimes by Wing Chun adopting some of the things they do, while at other times doing exactly the opposite.

I think however that the "revolutionary" thing about Wing Chun (several hundred years ago) was that it did not try to imitate any animal, but always sought the most efficient way to make use of the tools that human anatomy offers. Wing Chun was different in that regard to many of the styles that existed back then. Certain similarities to other styles can be found for sure, but these are likely to be purely coincidental because of the abovementioned reason. Realistically, it is impossible to trace back accurately the roots of Wing Chun's footwork. Plus it must have evolved over time - nothing is static.

You can always make up theories on this topic, but you will never hit the nail on the head. You can spend all the time of the world on this topic, chasing your tail like my neighbour's Chihuahua. Your time is better invested analyzing how you can make your footwork faster, more stable and more explosive - that is, if you're interested in achieving results fast... ;)

[sihing]

I've always believed that Wing Chun was created based on Human movement not animal movements. Over all these years I've heard all the stories but when I looked at the art and analysed it, it was obvious that those stories are just fantasy. The one thing that sets us apart from the animals is our intellegence. Why anyone with a brain like ours would want to imiate an animal that can do things physically that we never could, is beyond me. Wing Chun is a very thought out system that has evolved over the generations, each one adding on it's own flavor and influence. Allot of the other Martial arts ***** foot around when fighting and can't even use the things they practice in training, Wing Chun on the other hand is very direct, simple and effective. One thing it isn't is natural, at least for most people.

Like others have said before me, it is my belief that other Kung Fu systems have created stories to associate themselves with Wing Chun, "Mantis hands and Hsing feet=Wing Chun", bla bla bla is all a bunch of marketing schemes designed to make people believe Wing chun stemmed from other arts that already exsisted. Looking at an Art in action and seeing similarities does not mean they came from the same source or share similar concepts and applications. The only way you are going to find out truly if Mantis hands and Wing chun hands are similar is to find out for yourself by playing around with a good Wing chun man.

Train more and worry less about stuff like this is my advice for you SunRooster, it's better use of your time.

James

[Shaolin Fist]

In the past different Kung Fu styles wanted an edge over other Kung Fu systems and above all they needed their own identity. To pass on their bible of knowlege they 'wrote down ' their system in the way forms or sets. Within the exterior of the Animal forms were hidden the essences of that system.

Now anyone who has ever trained extensively in the Five animals would know that the systems has a superficial 'Art' behind it, for example the tiger, crane etc. But the actually training behind the movements is Kiu Sau science. The animal part is only expressed through the intent, ie. panther work on speed and power develoment, snake on forward deflection with intent without head on resistence. Which is same as the expressions of bil, Tan, Wu, and huen sau which all use the science of forward deflecting energies. The crane element can be seen in the bong sau which 'floats' and redirects forward and pressing energies. Or the crane jong which allows one to protect centre whilst hooking or controlling just like the Fok Sau in WC.

So its not what the exterior look or shape of the hand , its what the intent of what hand is achieving. That's why we all end up speculating the meaning of forms, why are there so many interpretations enen on the SLT ?........its because we cant always see the intent or energetics behind the arm unless someone explains it to us. Just in the same way i was surprised when i was squashed by a small Gracie BJJ guy, i thought it was silly for him to lie on top of me cos i thought i would just flip him off but cos couldn't see his energy he felt twice his weight and i struggled till he eventually choked me out.

Tiger specialises in clearing, pressing, folding and it does this to trap and and close the gap. And this can be seen in the Lap Sau, Pak Sau and gum sau which is identical in most Southern systems. Behind the expression of the 'claw' is gouging, palm, grabbing, Pak, pressing chopping and so on.......... Even the Po Pai Guen from WC is no different to the tiger one. When it comes to forward close range striking, the claw changes to phoenix fist. So the Tiger system is really using the intent and the attributes of speed and ferosity, a bit like saying 'she fought like a 'Tiger' ??? . Most animal styles dont actually fight like the animal style they represent that impression was partly fueled from the likes of Golden Harvest and Shaw Brothers to sell more tickets.

What in my opinion sets WC apart from the other system is that its taking the same tools and re-packaged it to create a faster and more efficient fighting system. So the tools WC share are pretty much the same its just that the science of strategy is different. And from what i have read and seen, WC was born from the need to teach revolutionarys the skills to kill using the most efficent means. So the monks needed to take the best and most efficent from what they already had. The creators of WC didn't re-invent the wheel, they just created a F1 wheel out of one from a tractor !

I'm not here to advocate the Shaolin 'Animal' arts, but just to clarify a few points. Off course i understand if you spent years studying one system, there is not always time or the will to study others. I for one would not be in a position to judge the merits of ground fighting as i have no knowlege other than what i see in the media and through some brief interactions. So i wouldn't judge a persons ability to fight based on their forms or general physique as i feel its the fighter's ability to execute application, power and strategy that make's the real difference.

[Vajramusti]

In the past different Kung Fu styles wanted an edge over other Kung Fu systems and above all they needed their own identity.
((A broad and considerably vague overgeneralization. Everyone-a historian??))

Within the exterior of the Animal forms were hidden the essences of that system.

((Little to with wing chun- atleast what has come from Ip man))

Which is same as the expressions of bil, Tan, Wu, and huen sau which all use the science of forward deflecting energies.

((Again an overgeneralization.Many wing chun motions have their place, occasion and controls. "Forward deflecting enrgies" can be merely a verbal cliche. STRIKE!))

The crane element can be seen in the bong sau which 'floats' and redirects forward and pressing energies.
(("Float"? Would not be my first choice of words))

.

That's why we all end up speculating the meaning of forms, why are there so many interpretations enen on the SLT ?.......

((No different levels. depths and extent of learning plus ego can result in all sorts of conclusions))

Just in the same way i was surprised when i was squashed by a small Gracie BJJ guy, i thought it was silly for him to lie on top of me cos i thought i would just flip him off but cos couldn't see his energy he felt twice his weight and i struggled till he eventually choked me out.
((Your experience. Problematic in generalizing fir everyone))


And this can be seen in the Lap Sau, Pak Sau and gum sau which is identical in most Southern systems.

((Seen? Again the key is the eye of the beholder. Lots of folks use "Shaolin"" for legitimacy- doesnt mean much for analysis of the art. But you are entitled to your opinions.))

joy chaudhuri

[ChangHFY]

sunrooster, hows everything? just to state my opinion, no offense intended.
Both Tang Lang and Ving Tsun. Were considered to be created in mid to late 1600's around the time of the Qing take over. They were both created to combat the Qing. That being a fact. It would be accurate to say that they would have quite a few similarities, being that they are both considered revoulutionary systems of
combat.
Tang Lang being the culmination of 19 systems. Ving Tsun also the culmination of
quite a few Shaolin systems.
(sorry, about the mention of Shaolin. im not trying to start anything just giving my
opinion) And since the Northern Shaolin temple was established first. Which some of the Shaolin warrior monks then established the Southern Temple. To aid against pirates and threats towards the south. So there were quite a few similarities even in historys. Even going back to Wong Long in the creation of the tang lang pai.

That being aside,
personally i have studied both systems

Though the tang lang was primarily Qi Xing Tang Lang.

and Wing Chun being Ip Man and Hung Fa Yi.

Even though it was a Northern system of Mantis, I found quite a few similarities. Especially in the hand movements, chin na even some of the qigong.
Once again, sorry if I offended anybody with my opinion. (no harm intended)


take care,
zai jian

[Shaolin Fist]

Vajramusti

((A broad and considerably vague overgeneralization. Everyone-a historian??))
A broad overgeneralization i agree, but still a fact that when you go into China, every single MA style has numerous branches with their own individual stamp and family name attached to it. i dont really have to be an qualified historian to make that assumption, and i wasn't referring to a specific CMA.


((Little to with wing chun- atleast what has come from Ip man))
The point i was trying to convey across was that you cant tell what a shape is doing as you cannot see the intent or energy. And from my experience Tan sau is a pure movement rather than a shape. which means i dont need an open hand to perform the action i could perform a Tan with a fist, wrist or arm.


((Seen? Again the key is the eye of the beholder. Lots of folks use "Shaolin"" for legitimacy- doesnt mean much for analysis of the art. But you are entitled to your opinions.))

Yes i agree, i will take note to drop that Shaolin word :rolleyes: Maybe !..........Its just if you study from teachers who say that their system are of shaolin origins, then i just take their word for it. But i did also include the broader 'Southern' term as well which maybe i should use more of. But as you rightly said its just my opinion.

[Wisdom]

((Seen? Again the key is the eye of the beholder. Lots of folks use "Shaolin"" for legitimacy- doesnt mean much for analysis of the art. But you are entitled to your opinions.))

joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]


Why do people have a problem when the word “Shaolin” or anything to do with how is used?


It is a fact that Shaolin, Wu Tang and Emei Systems predate Wing Chun therefore it has to be a fact that Wing Chun would have had a major influence from these systems.

Shaolin, Wu tang and Emei practitioners would of discussed and exchanged ideas, methods and strategies with each other just like we all are here on this forum or when we have discussions with people from other systems ect.,

If Shaolin systems use the Ying Yang, five elements and eight directions which are Taoist philosophies. Wu Tang systems such as Hsing-I use “Da Mo” internal exercises for developing the layers of internal pressure leading to they ability to issue the striking force which has come from a Buddhist. This is even stated as true by Sun Lu Tang who said Hsing-I was developed from Da Mo’s internal classics.The Hakka arts have a southern Shaolin and Emei flavour which again shows dialog between practitioners of arts. The list could go on and on creating similarities between systems.

Yes all purely speculation and opinion, but if all systems of Kung Fu have to of come from somewhere. You would have to admit at least that it would seem strange that there is such a mix of the same understandings within different branches or families of cma’s, if no contact was made between them.

So stating the most likely possibility for this similarity would be that cross training and exchanging of ideas had to of taken place.

This would have to be why Sunrooster has found similarities between Wing Chun and Tong Long and Shaolin Fist understands about animal essences and their relationship to bridge energies which correspond over to Wing Chun Bridge energies it all makes perfect sense no mumbo jumbo just logic there.

So why would Wing Chun be different?

Whatever lineage of Wing Chun if you follow the history they all stem back to Shaolin. Including the Yip Man system. He even uses the legend of the Five Elders with the Wing Chun creation being due to Ng Mui a Shaolin Nun true or not it's used and he put his name to it.

So even if people state that Wing Chun is not Shaolin and that it comes from Emei then it would still have to have some form of influence form Shaolin as all the temples in China were centres' where people from all walks of life came together. So some one must have said something that made some one else think which then created an influence on what they did within their system, a ripple effect, surely. So why blank the past why not learn from it instead.

So why should people have to refrain from using the word “Shaolin” when Wing Chun had influence from Shaolin. So what’s the big problem really when you think about it, you could say Wing Chun is Shaolin, Wu Tang and Emei Kung Fu or at least influenced. Yes it’s all just labelling but them Wing Chun is a label in itself! But with out a label how are you going to know about the product! So in my opinion I don’t see the problem with using the word Shaolin. As we could all learn more about Wing Chun and CMA from it.

I hope no one takes offence as that is not what is intended.

[sihing]

[QUOTE=Wisdom
It is a fact that Shaolin, Wu Tang and Emei Systems predate Wing Chun therefore it has to be a fact that Wing Chun would have had a major influence from these systems.[/QUOTE]

Wing Chun was not influenced by the predated systems. How can a non living thing like a Martial Arts system influence anything?? Wing chun was influenced by the PEOPLE that practiced/taught those systems, not the systems themselves or how they worked. Remember,1) never be a slave to a system, and 2) no one Martial Arts system is more importanat than the individual using it.

I will tell you, with all my experience that I have had in Wing Chun, it is still my choice whether or not I use it in a fight. I control what tools I use and how I will use them, not the delivery system I have choosen to learn.

James

[Ernie]

[QUOTESo why should people have to refrain from using the word “Shaolin” .[/QUOTE]


to shoalin or not to shoalin

the reason you should not use terms like { shoalin , disciple , grandmaster , Emie , wu-tang [unless the rap group they rock ! ] 5 animal , 3rd insect , 5th brother ,,,the list goes one ,,,,etc,,,

is very simple

you sound like a fruit !

just like trekies , dungeon and dragon dweebs , renaissance fair,WW2 ,cowboy and Indians re enactors

a whole bunch of lonely people seeking acceptance with other lonely people and creating a false identity

no different the the bible thumpers that worship snakes


in the realm of combative discussion , modern training methods , science of conditioning the human body

you just can not be in any way shape of from taken seriously

no matter how bad a$$ 5th brother of master buffalo fist was fabled to be in 1604

anyone that needs to justify there combative training with a history lesson ,,,,,screams of '' I suck but let me sell you the same crap I fell for ''


hope that helps it was not met to offend just the raw honest truth
;)

[Shaolin Fist]

I personally have no problem with hearing either side of the coin, just so long as both sides are given a equal shout so people have a more informed position to make a judement and to choose their own path. After all we are all free to wander into a MMA school and just be free of any of the history blah blah blah and get real workout in the process.

I personally like heritage and i respect culture, religion etc......... i want to know where i come from..........and i want to call my grandad.......'Grandad' and i would love to know who his grandad was ! I call my uncle.........'Uncle' and not just 'Bob'.........and address my Sifu..........'Sifu' but off course you are free to call your Sifu by his first name. I dont have a problem with rank either, so just cos you might address your Commander in Chief by his first name........i personally wouldn't !

Just as i respect different races who preserve their heritage and culture. I also respect people who give credit to their source of knowlege, Just the same way as the Gracie's acknowleged their roots. I am all ears to hearing history (factual or otherwise) on any subject but just like anyone else 'in moderation please!'

It doesn't matter if we cant proove what happened 300 years ago, we can still speculate. Just because it cant be proven that we are a direct decendant of the ape doesn't bother me as i would rather hear that than hear that i am the decendant of a species of rat !

If my son came upto me and said that a Chinaman invented electricity then i would ba happy to be in the position to correct him, just the same as i know where my tomatos originated from.

Just to coin the phrase :D ........No offence intended just my side of the Coin