What is the point of Tao Lu? (aka forms, kata, etc.)

[Fu-Pow]

Just wondering what people think about this.

[MasterKiller]

My take is that Tao Lu are basically combat-specific bodyweight exercise routines. Before there were jump ropes and HIIT routines, doing forms was a pretty good way to develop flexibility, elevate cardio, and build kinesthetic awareness.

But exercise science has become more efficient and forms work is antiquated.

Now, the value of forms is merely to pass on the flavor of the style.

Everyone knows that to use your forms in a live setting, you have to break them down and drill individual movements. If that's the case, why not start with the individual movements in the first place? You'd eliminate two (or more) years of training time right off the bat.

[David Jamieson]

you do start with individual movements. You can't learn a form all at once and the rule of thumb is that you get each movement right before moving on to another.

sometimes, it is taught taht the sequence be given and then refined. This is ok to, and is more interesting for the student than being corrected however many times before moving on.

The nature of the form to string together combinations and moves into form makes it no less efficient than anything else out there.

What is it that is more efficient and makes forms inadequate mk?

forms are part of training, but certainly not all, you do have to extrapolate, you do have to drill material taken from within teh form, you do have to do force feedback and resistance training to make any of it work and it all get's drawn out of form.

form is a teaching method and does indeed include and show flavour of a given style. It could be said that they are a more robust transimission method than one or two selections from another method that doesn't use form. Which is ok too.

purpose wise, they develop co-ordination and strength , timing etc etc. Although I would admit I still see a lot of people play them mechanically and with not a lot of those three things. But that's ok, with time and effort, they should by all rights come troi understand the form better and take it out of the pattern dancing realm and into the applicable parts of it.

That's if they want to bother with the fight aspect of ma which is another cookie altogether.

why do you ask fu pow? at a dark place in your training? :p

[SPJ]

Kata is to be taken apart and then put back pieces by pieces.

Kata is just another form of practice and not the only practice.

so the point of kata is that it is just a collection of many individual moves in a sequence.

--

[Banjos_dad]

i always imagined that forms developed back in the days when the knowledge of reading and writing were reserved mainly for the wealthiest or most influential people.... i imagine people connecting the techniques from their art into a sequence as a way of cataloging those moves in a way that could be memorized and performed in a standardized sequence.

[SPJ]

Yes.

There are names and songs/poems/classics associated with moves and kata.

oral transmission or Kuo Jue;

some are considered "secrets" not to be written down.

:)

[PangQuan]

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41558&page=4

[EarthDragon]

Master killer,
I read your posts often and almost always agree with the point you are trying to convey, however when you said this...

But exercise science has become more efficient and forms work is antiquated.

Now, the value of forms is merely to pass on the flavor of the style.

Everyone knows that to use your forms in a live setting, you have to break them down and drill individual movements. If that's the case, why not start with the individual movements in the first place? You'd eliminate two (or more) years of training time right off the bat.

I would like to point out that forms, quen, kata, practice will never become antiquated. if so they why are we still doing them 2,600 years after thier inception?

Also properly taught you DO learn the movements individually then when you master or at least become proficient doing them, you string them together will movement.

Just as the person learning english it taught the letters of the alphabet first then words, then sentances. This is the same with form.

In closing why would you want to eliminate 2 (or more ) years off of your training? are you in a hurry to venture down a lifelong path? This is why kung fu today sucks or has been watered down and commericilized. Everyone is in a big hurry to learn and they dont take the time to become good at anything before they are crying to learn more.

[neilhytholt]

Forms are so the teacher can make $$$ off of you and force control over you and make you waste a ton of time without doing any real fighting. :mad:

[PangQuan]

So then explain why a teacher 1000 years ago would use forms to teach his one and only disciple?

it wasnt for money. it wasnt for control. it was because he knows what he's doing.:rolleyes:

[PangQuan]

its just part of the package.


the biggest thing i notice on people who rip on forms is that they actually seem to believe that all people practice is form. that they think there is no resisting opponents, no sparring, no rolling, no fighting.

sure there are schools like that, and even CMA students will rip on that. we know you cant learn to fight from just forms. but we also know the benefits of them.

some people can see the benefits and others cannot. those that cannot will always question. it is human nature to question that which you do not fully understand.

but dont worry, we understand that you do not understand. we will continue to be patient and explain to the best of our ability.

[yutyeesam]

I agree with MK, but in a different way. We drill concepts and applications first to understand the essence of combat structure.

Later on down the line, we train form. This way, when learning the form, you have a language to understand and interpret the form better.

From a business perspective, most adults want fitness, self defense, and stress relief from their training. They don't want to memorize a lot of vague movements that they don't really understand.

I love forms and forms training and performance. And I want my students to, as well. But I ease them into our daunting world of forms. I satisfy the fitness and combat needs first, both of which are a lot more primal in nature. Once those needs are being met, then I start teasing them into the world of forms and weapons.

I think it benefits to have a rich and expanded movement vocabulary (through learning forms), but only when you're mentally ready for it. As my sifu said, "If you eat too much at one time, you don't digest. It just turns into waste."

-123

[neilhytholt]

So then explain why a teacher 1000 years ago would use forms to teach his one and only disciple?

it wasnt for money. it wasnt for control. it was because he knows what he's doing.:rolleyes:

How do you know they did this? If you look at the remaining scrolls that are still passed down from the Tang dynasty, for instance, that were transferred to Japan, it would appear they were technique based, not form based.

[David Jamieson]

From a business perspective, most adults want fitness, self defense, and stress relief from their training. They don't want to memorize a lot of vague movements that they don't really understand.

yeah, they don't want to do the work of actually learning the form, because that's hard, but they do want the form.

people i've shown and shared with for the most part don't dig the "fight" aspect and do want the exercise with a difference and the stress relief etc and they want to do form more than to bang for real.

people who want to learn from you, for the most part will follow the method you lay out for them.

forms aren't $ makers. I would say that if someone wants to make money then that comes down to marketing and keeping an eye on teh zeitgeist.

for instance, you would do better to have an mma school than a tma school simply because it's more promoted and people want to be associated with something that everyone else has an idea of what it is.

otherwise, despite all the different styles we may practice, to the mainstream, it's all karate and their brother was a ninja and the gracies would choke us all out etc etc etc.

[EarthDragon]

neihyholt
Forms are so the teacher can make $$$ off of you and force control over you and make you waste a ton of time without doing any real fighting.

May be your teacher did this to you, perhaps this is why you dont understand the importance of practice. i dont charge my students to learn and my shrfu is from taiwan who's shrfu did not charge, etc. etc. So your statement is a rather sweeping assumption from YOUR expereince. All the applications found in our 5 forms are absolutley fighting based.

I teach 8 step praying mantis are you going to say that system is not combat/fight based?

also what scrolls are you speaking of? it is better to not make statements like these when your lack of experience shows through.

[PangQuan]

its the same thing.

a technique is form. combine many form together for a sequence. do this solo, or with partner.

any evidence that shows existance of pre desinged technique is showing form.

it doesnt matter when people began to put the form together. probably very early on.

when you practice a technique, we want to feel what can flow out of it, without disruption. least resistance. once you do one technique and find a second of least resistance, you have started sequence.

i can think of this on my own. i am no great master. i am sure other has had same idea.

[neilhytholt]

I agree with MK, but in a different way. We drill concepts and applications first to understand the essence of combat structure.

Later on down the line, we train form. This way, when learning the form, you have a language to understand and interpret the form better.

From a business perspective, most adults want fitness, self defense, and stress relief from their training. They don't want to memorize a lot of vague movements that they don't really understand.


Ahhh, if only more CMA teachers were like you.

[neilhytholt]

neihyholt
Forms are so the teacher can make $$$ off of you and force control over you and make you waste a ton of time without doing any real fighting.

May be your teacher did this to you, perhaps this is why you dont understand the importance of practice. i dont charge my students to learn and my shrfu is from taiwan who's shrfu did not charge, etc. etc. So your statement is a rather sweeping assumption from YOUR expereince. All the applications found in our 5 forms are absolutley fighting based.

I teach 8 step praying mantis are you going to say that system is not combat/fight based?

IMHO it's a question of learning curve. When I took jujitsu, it was a much shorter learning curve, because they actually practice techniques. I can't remember doing any form longer than about 9 moves in those classes.

IMHO forms are useless. Why do I think this? Because most martial arts have different forms for the same applications. So why even bother with forms? It just seems like a waste of time.

[yutyeesam]

forms aren't $ makers. I would say that if someone wants to make money then that comes down to marketing and keeping an eye on teh zeitgeist.



Amen. Forms, if anything, are money losers! I've lost many a student in my time because I got them into forms too soon.

-123

[neilhytholt]

Amen. Forms, if anything, are money losers! I've lost many a student in my time because I got them into forms too soon.

-123

Really? I think wushu teachers would say otherwise. What do they have to teach besides forms?

[PangQuan]

the surface is skin deep.

[PangQuan]

Really? I think wushu teachers would say otherwise. What do they have to teach besides forms?

but you see. those that teach wushu, teach wushu.

people go there because thats what they WANT. so of course they will pay for it.

generally speaking, you have to be a complete dolt to go and start learning modern wushu, thinking its nothing more then a compulsory performance sport.

lunch time.

[yutyeesam]

IMHO forms are useless. Why do I think this? Because most martial arts have different forms for the same applications. So why even bother with forms? It just seems like a waste of time.

It's only a waste of time if you want it to be. When you're given something, it's up to you to make something out of it. If you view it as meaningless, then it is exactly that.

Remember, martial arts is the study of energy. Whether you are learning how to traingle choke someone trying to pass your guard, or learning a rising block w/an upward palm, it is all in the science of energy. It's all connected. The two scenarios might seem totally unrelated, but they are not, if you look really closely at what energy is used to get from point A to point B.

-123

[yutyeesam]

Really? I think wushu teachers would say otherwise. What do they have to teach besides forms?

Their main business is teaching children. In that case, yes, forms are a big part of the money makers.

Adults are a different story.

EDIT: I'm referring to successful schools that have 100+ students.

-123

[Ray Pina]

The purpose of form: to lose the importance of martial arts.

My master always says China's specialty is losing it's good stuff. Perfect example, they discover gun powder and other nations come in and develop it to a higher level.

Personally, I believe the government emphasised form, good form = champion, as a way to curb a nation of millions of martial artists. Over time, you lose everything. The best part, is that you have people fighting over it's importance today ... who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

[David Jamieson]

ray-

fighters win and lose all the time.
some people are not so good at it, some people have no ability and skill that can be measured in anything but drops and other people have a lot of those traits and still lose in fights.

everyone loses fights. and when they do, it's because they can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. :p

forms are not just wushu. that's where a line needs to be drawn. Form is just a shell, a pattern. It is either brought to life or not by the player of it. It is either analyzed and used by the one who is interested or performed as a dance by someone who is not so interested in the aspect or meaning on another level.

it's a method of practice, that's all it is for me. Apparently, some people are really offended by this method and will go to great lengths to point out the inadequacies of it based on venues that have little to do with it.

one doesn't bring a gun to a wrestling match, but any martial artist can try their hand at their pleasure in seeing if what they have learned is effective. Or one can decide they don't need to or want to do that but still enjoy using the method.

Millions of people hit a heavy bag and do a 'boxers workout TM' and will never step in a ring. It is not really necessary for all martial artists to step into a ring fighting venue. People play paint ball, people fence without any undue harm coming to them.

I think maybe the issue is people who just play form who 'think' they can find but won't step up. I don't think everyone who trains using forms is like this.

How many times you get hit is not the measure of your martial experience either. Nor is how many times you hit someone else. Sometimes it's just the pleasure of training. In fact, for anyone, doing any martial art, 99% of it all is training and not fighting or sparring. sparring is another method, boxers don't always spar. They don't always fight. UFC guys spend more time training and drill than in competition fight environments.

[neilhytholt]

The purpose of form: to lose the importance of martial arts.

My master always says China's specialty is losing it's good stuff. Perfect example, they discover gun powder and other nations come in and develop it to a higher level.

Personally, I believe the government emphasised form, good form = champion, as a way to curb a nation of millions of martial artists. Over time, you lose everything. The best part, is that you have people fighting over it's importance today ... who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

The more I hear about your teacher the more I think he's a smart man.

[David Jamieson]

gunpowder was the example?

your master sounds traditional. lol

not to mention, you call him 'master'.
No offense, but what's the purpose of being a 'master'?

[neilhytholt]

gunpowder was the example?

your master sounds traditional. lol

not to mention, you call him 'master'.
No offense, but what's the purpose of being a 'master'?

Master is usually just an honorary title, except if the person can actually fight and is a 'master', which it sounds like this guy is.

Gunpowder was a very good example. China was stupid because they had a lot of technology. They had huge ships, great armies. Nobody in Asia could match them. Then during the Ming dynasty they decided they would close off the country and they effectively lost 400+ years of development. And they got taken over by the Manchus.

Then everybody in the world came over to take them over and the only reason they didn't totally get taken over is everybody was fighting over who it would be. Ray's teacher sounds very smart.

[Ray Pina]

My master never asked me to call him master, he only told me not to call him sifu, because that title is for when you live together, etc. He asked to be called Mr. Chan, or teacher.

I called him teacher until he did something that caused me to drop to my knees and call him master. I know it sounds corny and very Shaw Brother's but what I saw was mastery ... period.

On a side note, he told me to get up and never do that again, but I've done it a few times since for similiar reasons. Every once in a while I get to see the Holy Grail and I'm thankful for it, and humbled by it.

I have never called anyone else master in my entire life. It would take something awesome for me to adress another that way.

As for martial arts and how I measure my ability: who can I beat, who can't I beat (yet!!!!!) and why? Then I study and train more to fix the problem.

It is not how often you hit or be hit, that is correct. It is the level of your martial skill. Form is no way to measure it at all, not even a little bit. And I don't say this because I am not good at form, quite the contrary, I believe my form displays good power. It's because I displayed good power in my form and won a medal and been TKOed on the same day .... how do you think I felt martialy that day? Like showing off my form medal? Or going back and reviewing the film and seeing what went wrong?

I hate these discussions because I believe inside every martial artists knows this and they argue it away for their ego alone. Or to keep their students. I for one am done walking on egg shells for these people. And for those who say, well, I'd be better if I didn't have a girlfriend, or a wife, or a serious job. Get over it!

[David Jamieson]

ray-

you're never gonna be able to beat everyone.
I would only reiterate again that form is a method, not the ends.

[Ray Pina]

There's worlds between not being able to beat everyone and not being able to beat anyone.

I'm sorry, I know too many form practicioners with no balls. Now, this in itself would not bother me at all; fighting is not for everyone. But the reason why I don't surf 100 foot waves is because I'm scared; not because I don't have to because I learned everything there is surfing 4-foot eastcoast wind slop. I can admit that.

And because of that, when they start talking about waverunners to tow into these giant waves and special boards, I don't talk about how untraditional it is (many surfers take this view and I see the cross over into MA) ... I keep my mouth shut and listen because they have taken my hobby to a whole other level.

[Jingwu Man]

I love doing forms, they are a link to an older time.
I also agree that forms are mis-used and mis-understood a lot of the time.
As for the argument that forms don't work, I suppose that is a personal experience. In my school we train applications from the forms constantly, and students really come to like their forms. My teacher won't let you learn anything new unless you can show that you know what the forms are for.
It's all about intent in forms. If you know what the movement is for, you can express it on the form powerfully and gracefully. Forms are, I guess, an easy way of teaching a series of techniques. An old school seminar. Most forms I know have a theme, multiple attackers, guy with spear, etc.
That being said, you have to drill the applications over and over again, not just know them, but be able to live them. So I guess it all comes down to how your instructor teaches and what emphasis he/she places on the forms.

[TenTigers]

I believe the main reason that people put down forms is becaus ethey have a lack of understanding. This is not entierely their fault, as they only know what their teachers taught them. (I say not entirely, because they should be bright enough to do some research as well) This is why there are so many misconceptions about form.
In the past few hundred years, Martial Arts has been, with very few exceptions, intentially taught a$$-backwards. A simple look at history will explain this:

Several hundred years ago-China is separated into warring kingdoms. Battles upon battles. If you are a General/Warlord,etc. what are you going to train your soldiers in-forms first, or drills, drills, drills, conditioning, applications, fighting?
This should be a no-brainer.
Ok, fast-forward a few hundred years, or whatever. Manchus invade China, rebels are trainig to overthrow the Ching, restore the Ming. What do you train first-forms, or drills, drills, drills,, conditioning,applications,fighting?
Again, the answer is easy.
Fast forward again-School is fighting school for superiority of their names and a place in the community-but they are fighting in the streets. Waht do you teach first-forms? or drills, drills, drills,conditioning,applications and fighting?
see a pattern yet?
Ok-last journey through the Time Tunnel-Schools are now trying to stay open-attracting students, etc. They put on public demonstrations. What do you think they will be showing? A bunch of guys hitting baggs, or drilling? Yeah right. Who wants to see that? So they demonstrate their forms. "Wow! I wanna learn the Tiger Form!" "I wanna learn the Dragon!"
-and when they join the school, what do they learn first? yep-forms.
So now you have all these well-known "Masters' teaching forms, then maybe some applications, a few drills, and how do their students fight? Like kickboxers.
Nobody even knows how to use their Kung-Fu-not even the teachers.Why? Because most teachers these days are already another generation created by this mess. The only thing that resembles Kung-Fu are their forms and their t-shirts.
So yes. For them-forms are useless, antiquated, outdated, etc.
Traditionally forms are only taught last, to round out the student's training, to teach further concepts,fluidity,variation of technique, and to catalogue the system so that it can be passed down for the next generations intact. And not everybody learned them. There was no need to. If they wanted to fight-they fought, if they wanted to teach, then they were taught the entire system. Many of the higher skills as well were passed down in the forms. There are forms that dealt specifically with dim-mak, iron body,hei-gung etc and were not given out freely.
So the next time you hear someone speak with authority on how forms are useless, don't argue with them. That is a battle that can't be won. Let it go.

[neilhytholt]

Ok-last journey through the Time Tunnel-Schools are now trying to stay open-attracting students, etc. They put on public demonstrations. What do you think they will be showing? A bunch of guys hitting baggs, or drilling? Yeah right. Who wants to see that? So they demonstrate their forms. "Wow! I wanna learn the Tiger Form!" "I wanna learn the Dragon!"
-and when they join the school, what do they learn first? yep-forms.
So now you have all these well-known "Masters' teaching forms, then maybe some applications, a few drills, and how do their students fight? Like kickboxers.
Nobody even knows how to use their Kung-Fu-not even the teachers.Why? Because most teachers these days are already another generation created by this mess. The only thing that resembles Kung-Fu are their forms and their t-shirts.
So yes. For them-forms are useless, antiquated, outdated, etc.
Traditionally forms are only taught last, to round out the student's training, to teach further concepts,fluidity,variation of technique, and to catalogue the system so that it can be passed down for the next generations intact.

These are very good points. When you put it this way, I wouldn't say that forms are useless then if you consider it like a catalog.

[yutyeesam]

Forms should be used to reinforce the combat principles you already should have gotten through combat drills (incl sparring). Use what you practice, and practice what you use.

If there is little relevance to the forms you learn with the combat drills/principles you learn, then yes, form is meaningless, because it is existing as its own entity, not a compliment to the other aspects.

-123

[Ray Pina]

I don't agree with the statement that if you don't train form you don't know form. My master has trained since he was 5. He started with Hung Gar, studied WC with Yip Man (before getting kicked out for asking too many questions), Mantis, so many stles... he didn't get his good stuff he said until he was 45 years old. He still trains today.

He knows form. He shows applications of taiji like its no ones business. But we all see people performing form and it's mindless, no power. No connection.

If you're breaking down the form and training the applications right, why spend the time with the form? I know people say it's a catalog of technique ..... fu(k technique! Technique is a dime a dozen. Technique you can get from a book or video, just like the form.

What is behind the technique? What fuel's the technique? That's what makes the martial artists.

Nobody ever loses a fight and says "The other guy had more technique than me."

No, it's always the other guy was bigger, faster, stronger. He was better. These are ways of talking around that fact that the other guy was made of better stuff, better material.

This is the truth.

I have nothing to lose or gain by promoting or dissing form. I could teach my students Isshin-ryu form, Hung Gar form, Mantis, Wing CHun and Bak Mei form. Why waist all of our time. I train with my students, do everything they do. Form is a waist of time ..... which is why a lot of teacher promote it so well.

[WinterPalm]

Through my experience in training Black Tiger style for close to five years I have observed several things about forms and traditional training (my Sifu refers to it as old school).

From day one you are beginning to strengthen, condition, and stretch the body to face the rigors of training. You are also engaging in one to one self-defense, situational drills, and kum la sao or joint locking. As well you are learning all the basic kicks and punches, footwork, etc. In fact, we have a class a week in which I instruct the class and we work on these things ad nausem (sp?). These, minus a few other things, are the basics including standing meditation and breathing.

After some time you begin to learn basic forms that gradually become more and more complex sets of movement all training specific qualities for fitness, health, and fighting application. Black Tiger has eight empty hand forms. Each one takes a good year or two to learn and you drill these forms, and every movement as you learn it, a lot. Obviously in and around the time one has practiced their basics etc, free sparring starts. This goes from no contact at first and slowly builds as one gets comfortable and more experienced. For the most part this is done with no gloves or other equipment but occasionally we wear gloves. As this point when I spar with a fellow black sash I think to myself that if I'm not careful and really paying attention, this is going to hurt...a lot.

So you see that by training application and basics from day one, including contact with your peers in varying degrees of aggression and force, you are preparing for a reality of fighting. The applications are taken from the sets so that when you learn one you start to put the pieces together and the applications come easier (although I must admit that self-defense and application, other than free sparring, comes the slowest to me for some reason!).

Forms, at the very least, give one some exercise that replicates and ingrains the motions that one will use in fighting. Sifu is strict on using the art in sparring and so these things must be done. Why go running for hours, skipping rope for days, or lifting weights for months, when everything is put together in one or several packages that are second to none in terms of sport specificity? I am not against other training methods, I enjoy a variety of physical endeavors, but for martial arts, nothing beats training the movements over and over again.

I am fortunate that this is how I am taught...self-defense and basics along side forms and style...I don't think there is a better combo!

[neilhytholt]

Nobody ever loses a fight and says "The other guy had more technique than me."

No, it's always the other guy was bigger, faster, stronger. He was better. These are ways of talking around that fact that the other guy was made of better stuff, better material.

This is the truth.

I have nothing to lose or gain by promoting or dissing form. I could teach my students Isshin-ryu form, Hung Gar form, Mantis, Wing CHun and Bak Mei form. Why waist all of our time. I train with my students, do everything they do. Form is a waist of time ..... which is why a lot of teacher promote it so well.

My first sifu used to beat us with 'technique'. Meaning, he had a lot of experience and he knew what we were going to do. Even though his students were younger than him, stronger and faster, he could still beat them.

But he didn't get that way through doing form. He got that way by sparring a ton. We still did 'form', just to keep the tradition, I guess.

At the time I thought forms were mainly for women because they always seemed to do them better, like dancing. That's why I've always called people who do mainly forms 'forms queens'.

Edit ...

Actually, I didn't start that phrase 'forms queens'. That's what we always called people who could do forms but not fight. I think one of my sifu's sifus must have invented it.

[TenTigers]

um, catalogue and technique were just two of the words mentioned in these posts. Why are those the only ones you guys are discussing? Did everyone completely miss the points? This is like argueing with my ex. She will pick up on one word and suddenly the entire conversation becomes focused on that one word. sheesh. You guys have one thought in your heads and no matter what anyone else says to you, you will find some word, some way of validating your point. Like i said before, Don't argue with these guys. It's useless.

[Fu-Pow]

My take is that Tao Lu are basically combat-specific bodyweight exercise routines.

What about the techniques that the forms contain?



Before there were jump ropes and HIIT routines, doing forms was a pretty good way to develop flexibility, elevate cardio, and build kinesthetic awareness.

So how is jump roping and HIIT better than doing forms?



But exercise science has become more efficient and forms work is antiquated.

Now, the value of forms is merely to pass on the flavor of the style.

What do you mean by flavor?



Everyone knows that to use your forms in a live setting, you have to break them down and drill individual movements. If that's the case, why not start with the individual movements in the first place? You'd eliminate two (or more) years of training time right off the bat.

Totally agree. However, in modern times I think that most people associate kung fu with the forms. So how do we not teach forms and yet retain students? They'll think you're holding out on them.

[Fu-Pow]

you do start with individual movements. You can't learn a form all at once and the rule of thumb is that you get each movement right before moving on to another.

But you're still using the form as a kind of "road map" for teaching kung fu. As if learning the form is the ultimate when in fact its just another training tool.



why do you ask fu pow? at a dark place in your training? :p

Haha...you could say that. I think Coach Ross used the best metaphor when he said kung fu training is like a really powerful bullet that doesn't have a gun ie a delivery system. Lately I've been working on the delivery system by sparring and I realize that forms don't do you a lot of good. It's the basics and short combos that are most important.

[Fu-Pow]

I love forms and forms training and performance. And I want my students to, as well. But I ease them into our daunting world of forms. I satisfy the fitness and combat needs first, both of which are a lot more primal in nature. Once those needs are being met, then I start teasing them into the world of forms and weapons.

How do you do that? What do you teach them? And for how long? What does your typical class session look like?

[Fu-Pow]

I believe the main reason that people put down forms is becaus ethey have a lack of understanding. This is not entierely their fault, as they only know what their teachers taught them. (I say not entirely, because they should be bright enough to do some research as well) This is why there are so many misconceptions about form.
In the past few hundred years, Martial Arts has been, with very few exceptions, intentially taught a$$-backwards. A simple look at history will explain this:

Several hundred years ago-China is separated into warring kingdoms. Battles upon battles. If you are a General/Warlord,etc. what are you going to train your soldiers in-forms first, or drills, drills, drills, conditioning, applications, fighting?
This should be a no-brainer.
Ok, fast-forward a few hundred years, or whatever. Manchus invade China, rebels are trainig to overthrow the Ching, restore the Ming. What do you train first-forms, or drills, drills, drills,, conditioning,applications,fighting?
Again, the answer is easy.
Fast forward again-School is fighting school for superiority of their names and a place in the community-but they are fighting in the streets. Waht do you teach first-forms? or drills, drills, drills,conditioning,applications and fighting?
see a pattern yet?
Ok-last journey through the Time Tunnel-Schools are now trying to stay open-attracting students, etc. They put on public demonstrations. What do you think they will be showing? A bunch of guys hitting baggs, or drilling? Yeah right. Who wants to see that? So they demonstrate their forms. "Wow! I wanna learn the Tiger Form!" "I wanna learn the Dragon!"
-and when they join the school, what do they learn first? yep-forms.
So now you have all these well-known "Masters' teaching forms, then maybe some applications, a few drills, and how do their students fight? Like kickboxers.
Nobody even knows how to use their Kung-Fu-not even the teachers.Why? Because most teachers these days are already another generation created by this mess. The only thing that resembles Kung-Fu are their forms and their t-shirts.
So yes. For them-forms are useless, antiquated, outdated, etc.
Traditionally forms are only taught last, to round out the student's training, to teach further concepts,fluidity,variation of technique, and to catalogue the system so that it can be passed down for the next generations intact. And not everybody learned them. There was no need to. If they wanted to fight-they fought, if they wanted to teach, then they were taught the entire system. Many of the higher skills as well were passed down in the forms. There are forms that dealt specifically with dim-mak, iron body,hei-gung etc and were not given out freely.
So the next time you hear someone speak with authority on how forms are useless, don't argue with them. That is a battle that can't be won. Let it go.

Excellent points. However, you notice that the whole kung fu community supports this notion of the ultimate importance of forms. Notice that at kung fu tournaments the main focus is always on form competition. The sparring is like an afterthought when everybody has left for the day with their shiny forms metal. I think that it should be the other way around.

[Fu-Pow]

At the time I thought forms were mainly for women because they always seemed to do them better, like dancing. That's why I've always called people who do mainly forms 'forms queens'.

Nice....:D...I'll have to remember that term.

[yutyeesam]

How do you do that? What do you teach them? And for how long? What does your typical class session look like?

Hi Fu-Pow,
I use what's called a rotating curriculum. So my beginners program is six months, which is briken into 3 two month semesters. Each semester is devoted to different seeds/elements and combinations, and drills.

So a typical class would look like this:
-warm up
-go through required combos (eg 1. gwa kup sow 2. chop kup pow etc)
-strike pads with combos (all upperbody techs)
-combat drills
-kicking pads with kicking combos
-free form pad striking
-conditioning

In the free form pad striking, I teach various footwork patterns from our forms that you can apply to free forming on the bag/pads.

If you want to know more about the rotating curriculum, PM me. It really makes teaching a lot easier. It takes a while to explain, but it is really great for being able to take new students while still challenging your current ones.

So basically, after a year of really understanding the mechanics of generating power and the combat structure of CLF, we start Sil Mui Fah (about 9 months in, we work broken rhythm sparring drills).

-123

[BlueTravesty]

Who doesn't love this debate? :-P Everyone is bringing up great points, to where I almost don't feel the need to say anything, but I've gotta chime in, since I disagree with this point...


However, you notice that the whole kung fu community supports this notion of the ultimate importance of forms.

While I realize MUCH of the Kung Fu community places an unduly large amount of importance on forms, there are some very traditional sifu who do not agree. I can't remember the exact page or paragraph or chapter, but in his book The Sword Polisher's Guide, Adam Hsu mentioned the undue importance forms are assigned, and mentioned his own experience with teaching forms. For one thing, he said he only taught the forms early on because he was afraid his students would get bored of single-movement training and quit otherwise (he also relates that he was relieved when he found this wasn't true.) He also adds that many kung fu styles have few forms (Baji, Pigua, Mizong/ MyJhong [horray!])

Where I'm studying, forms and sparring are given equal importance. We're taught all the common sense stuff regarding applications- forms are neuromuscular excercises that help to impart certain concepts related to our style. The elementary (Chin Woo Standard) forms build a foundation to impart basics- rooting, multi-directional awareness, open joints, strong legs, punching with the body, not the arm. The actual Myjhong/Mizong forms, I'm told (I'm still in the foundational stages,) teach more advanced concepts- fast, deceptive footwork, generating spiral energy without rooting, etc.

[Fu-Pow]

Who doesn't love this debate? :-P Everyone is bringing up great points, to where I almost don't feel the need to say anything, but I've gotta chime in, since I disagree with this point...



While I realize MUCH of the Kung Fu community places an unduly large amount of importance on forms, there are some very traditional sifu who do not agree. I can't remember the exact page or paragraph or chapter, but in his book The Sword Polisher's Guide, Adam Hsu mentioned the undue importance forms are assigned, and mentioned his own experience with teaching forms. For one thing, he said he only taught the forms early on because he was afraid his students would get bored of single-movement training and quit otherwise (he also relates that he was relieved when he found this wasn't true.) He also adds that many kung fu styles have few forms (Baji, Pigua, Mizong/ MyJhong [horray!])

Good point. That is a great book and I highly recommend it.

[Fu-Pow]

Hi Fu-Pow,
I use what's called a rotating curriculum. So my beginners program is six months, which is briken into 3 two month semesters. Each semester is devoted to different seeds/elements and combinations, and drills.

So a typical class would look like this:
-warm up
-go through required combos (eg 1. gwa kup sow 2. chop kup pow etc)
-strike pads with combos (all upperbody techs)
-combat drills
-kicking pads with kicking combos
-free form pad striking
-conditioning

In the free form pad striking, I teach various footwork patterns from our forms that you can apply to free forming on the bag/pads.

If you want to know more about the rotating curriculum, PM me. It really makes teaching a lot easier. It takes a while to explain, but it is really great for being able to take new students while still challenging your current ones.

So basically, after a year of really understanding the mechanics of generating power and the combat structure of CLF, we start Sil Mui Fah (about 9 months in, we work broken rhythm sparring drills).

-123

Cool. I know a little bit about the rotating curriculum but I'd like to get a little more info from you. I'll take it to PM or email.

Thanks 123

[FuXnDajenariht]

uuuuuuum.....why do you have your ignore list in your signature?

[Royal Dragon]

For me, my view of forms has evolved. I used to think they were very important for students as a sport specific exercise, but now my view has changed and I was thinking that they orignally were for teachers to use as a referance or a curriculem for thier students. Basically the TEACHERS practiced the forms to remember what techniques were best taught when, and for sport specific conditioning to be practiced as part of thier maintinance program, not to develop in the first place.

I think when the shift from fighting, to comercial schools useing martial arts for fittness came about, forms got the center stage because that was what was in more demand from the general public as fighting was less and less prominant.

[mantis053]

Here's my take on things. Forms are sets of tech. put all together. This is the way past masters past down there art. The key is to take all the moves you learn and practice them in all aspects. Forms also teach you how link techs. together. They teach you how to move and how to keep moving. There is a certain level of condtioning involved in doing forms.
You can take the moves you learn in forms and drill them individually and then put them in free hand sparring practice. Like I said before forms are just a bunch of combos put all together. You can use all the new ways of training and still do forms. We can perserve the old ways of doing things and blend them with the new. I don't see anything wrong with that at all.
As far as just teaching forms. If there is teachers out there doing that their are doing their student a great disservice. As a martial arts teacher you should make sure that every student can mentially and physically withstand the burden of the REAL THING( a fight).
Just one more thing. When I watch say the UFC. I see a guy link punch and kick combos and then go for takedown,and then when on the ground ,link certain techs. to get a sumbmission. Could what just described be a modern day form. I don't know. Well all of you have a good day.
SIGNING OFF NOBBY

[Fu-Pow]

uuuuuuum.....why do you have your ignore list in your signature?

So that people I'm ignoring know not to respond to my posts.

[Fu-Pow]

Here's my take on things. Forms are sets of tech. put all together. This is the way past masters past down there art. The key is to take all the moves you learn and practice them in all aspects. Forms also teach you how link techs. together. They teach you how to move and how to keep moving. There is a certain level of condtioning involved in doing forms.[INDENT]

Good points. Although I've found that the way the moves are executed and linked together in the forms is usually to complicated as to be practical.


If there is teachers out there doing that their are doing their student a great disservice.

Suprisingly, there are A LOT of them teaching this way.



As a martial arts teacher you should make sure that every student can mentially and physically withstand the burden of the REAL THING( a fight).

Totally agree and you have to have a program to do it gradually....ie the law of graduated demands.

[richard sloan]

there is a major component to forms and moreso traditional systems of martial arts training that seems rarely addressed or understood, too quickly dismissed, but it is important at the root level of training martial arts according to their primary purpose.

much has recently been accomplished in regards to stripping out the "spiritual" components of martial arts, the often viewed esoteric mysticism, etc. Repeated forms training teaches the mind in a very expedient fashion. As a meditational vehicle alone their benefit is priceless.

In our own armed forces increases in pts has caused some focus to be turned back to our forebears, to begin addressing how exactly the warrior exits and re-enters society, how the warrior copes with the metaphysical ramifications of what they have done in combat, and a host of other issues...

in my tradition forms are repositories not just for martial movements, techniques, and the physical, but also the metaphysical. even a quick perusal of humanity's warrior societies should hint to the researcher that there is a relationship between their physical training and their spiritual/metaphysical training. Often warriors had elaborate ceremony pre and post battle ritual, mythological structures explaining or alleviating stress from their deeds imbedded in their makeup, systems by which they built their identities...

I haven't read this whole thread as yet but after looking at a few posts I just wanted to put this up.

[Invisible-fist]

Forms training is unique to CMA, if we consider that Karate, TKD, etc, are all dirivatives of CMA. Traditional JMA (JuJutsu, kenjutsu) use two man katas. Only CMA and its dirivatives use the solo, precoreograped "dance" form. As such it makes sense that it has taken center stage..its our specialty. People seek out TKD to learn to kick high, judo to throw people around, kendo to use swords, and Kung Fu to bust mad moves.

If we throw out forms and just treain like kickboxers, we'll just be kickboxers (that's what SanShou is).

I sort of see the seperation of Wushu/Sanshou into two separate events as an official acknowledgment that forms and fighting are really two diffferent things. That forms don't really help you fight, but they remain an important cultural legacy. (Other nations have kickboxing sports. ONLY China has wushu.)

[David Jamieson]

Forms training is unique to CMA, if we consider that Karate, TKD, etc, are all dirivatives of CMA. Traditional JMA (JuJutsu, kenjutsu) use two man katas. Only CMA and its dirivatives use the solo, precoreograped "dance" form. As such it makes sense that it has taken center stage..its our specialty. People seek out TKD to learn to kick high, judo to throw people around, kendo to use swords, and Kung Fu to bust mad moves.

If we throw out forms and just treain like kickboxers, we'll just be kickboxers (that's what SanShou is).

I sort of see the seperation of Wushu/Sanshou into two separate events as an official acknowledgment that forms and fighting are really two diffferent things. That forms don't really help you fight, but they remain an important cultural legacy. (Other nations have kickboxing sports. ONLY China has wushu.)

goju, shorin, isshin all traditional jma from okinawa use kata extensively as part of the training path as well as kumite and drills.

japan has shotokan, china has wu shu, when it comes to "effective" what's the difference? :P *pokes the karate guy in the rib and jumps away* hahahahaha

[Invisible-fist]

goju, shorin, isshin all traditional jma from okinawa use kata extensively as part of the training path as well as kumite and drills.

japan has shotokan, china has wu shu, when it comes to "effective" what's the difference? :P *pokes the karate guy in the rib and jumps away* hahahahaha

Like I said, Karate is a CMA derivative.

"Karate" MEANS "China Hand."

Goju ryu is Yongchun White Crane gung fu with the names translated into Japanese.

[David Jamieson]

Like I said, Karate is a CMA derivative.

"Karate" MEANS "China Hand."

Goju ryu is Yongchun White Crane gung fu with the names translated into Japanese.

well karate doesn't mean "china hand" it literally mean "empty hand"

goju is closer to five animals style but I agree on teh white crane flavour that shines through. goju though mean hard/soft not white crane.

also, all systems of kungfu are progressive in their teaching method.

from the empty to the near full, one builds from the last and prepares for the next in how they train.

form has less and less importance as one moves through time and effort in practice. You still keep the form, but in true aspect, kungfu at the individual level is formless.

[Invisible-fist]

well karate doesn't mean "china hand" it literally mean "empty hand".

It originally was called "China hand" they changed the first character (same pronounciation) to mean "empty hand" for nationalist reasons. They wanted it to be an indigenous art rather than a foreign import.



goju is closer to five animals style but I agree on teh white crane flavour that shines through. goju though mean hard/soft not white crane.

I didn't mean the name of the style -- I meant the names of the katas. Goju has Sanchin, Yongchun WC has "san jan" --they both mean "three battles".


also, all systems of kungfu are progressive in their teaching method.

from the empty to the near full, one builds from the last and prepares for the next in how they train.

form has less and less importance as one moves through time and effort in practice. You still keep the form, but in true aspect, kungfu at the individual level is formless

I don't really understand what you mean here. It seems presumptious to generalize about ALL systems.

[David Jamieson]

a changing of a character for nationalistic reasons doesn't take away from the fact that karate is "empty hand" but arguing semantics isn't the point. Three battles is a very famous set and is not just in okinawan arts, it is also found in some of the southern styles of kungfu study. It's a good set for basics development and when somethings good, why not use it? :)

kungfu is not what you are doing, it is what you are working towards having within you and be able to express.

having said that, kungfu or any line of study requires a method that builds from the void to fullness. so, one doesn't enter into full sanda at the beginning of their training path, but rather they learn basics and move forward progressively building on what they have and working towards what they will attain next.

for instance, seeing as we are talking about forms, many styles deal with the teaching of forms in a progressive manner. with each form getting progressively more and more difficult each one a little more difficult than the last but readying the student for what comes next.

as well, it is general practice that application is extrpolated from form at a time after you have learned the pattern and are touching on the essence.

when the form has been fully deconstructed into it's applicable components, then one would take that into a little whole of force development in order to correct and adjust alignment (pad work, drills, bag work etc etc) and in the meanwhile they would begin to start applying it in a free style, sometime very metered and slow in order to facilitate more the learning experience than the competitive application and so on up the ladder to where you are free hand (san shou) fighting or style specific san da (free strike).

san shou/san da is a term and not really a style. Although it is also a concept and deals with applied chinese martial arts. David Ross could probably go on at great lengths about what it is and what it isn't, but I think the name says it all really.

so form, like weightlifting, is a tool of progressive understanding of what it is you are doing. some people can have great form, and yet still be dismal and poor in the actual ability to fight. some people can be great fighters but by all outward appearances have not much in the area of good form.

some people punch a lot of tomato cans and think they are good fighters.

there's a lot of variation to be considered, but to say virtually all systems of chinese martial arts use a progressive development method is more true than untrue.

even those that don't use form.

universal rule is crawl before walk, walk befor run and so on.

or, give milk to babies and meat to the strong. :P

[SPJ]

Yes.

CMA practices are consisted of several components.

1. Zhuang gong or standing post practice.

2. Drill, dummy, hitting the bag and pole etc. It is called Cao Shou in northern styles.

3. Tao Lu or forms are in progression as pointed out. The basic moves first, several moves strung together or composite, the segments of forms and then the entire forms.

there are basic forms consisting all the basic moves, such as little idea in WC, Xiao Ba Ji in Ba Ji fist, then intermediate forms, advanced formes, solo forms and duel forms, weapon forms etc.

sometimes, the basic moves and basic forms are drilled over and over. if you are not good at the basic moves or basic forms, we do not proceed to the next levels. in fact, all the basic moves and basic forms are practiced just about everyday.

4. San Shou practice or free hand practice is in contrast to Tao Lu, you may practice each technique or posture individually or combine or string your own freely.

San Da is free fighting using whatever your learn.

Again, the basic moves and drills or Ji Ben Gong are practiced everyday. That is where your Kung Fu starts, comes from, your foundation to build on.

[Invisible-fist]

Yes.

CMA practices are consisted of several components.

1. Zhuang gong or standing post practice.

2. Drill, dummy, hitting the bag and pole etc. It is called Cao Shou in northern styles.

3. Tao Lu or forms are in progression as pointed out. The basic moves first, several moves strung together or composite, the segments of forms and then the entire forms.

there are basic forms consisting all the basic moves, such as little idea in WC, Xiao Ba Ji in Ba Ji fist, then intermediate forms, advanced formes, solo forms and duel forms, weapon forms etc.

sometimes, the basic moves and basic forms are drilled over and over. if you are not good at the basic moves or basic forms, we do not proceed to the next levels. in fact, all the basic moves and basic forms are practiced just about everyday.

4. San Shou practice or free hand practice is in contrast to Tao Lu, you may practice each technique or posture individually or combine or string your own freely.

San Da is free fighting using whatever your learn.

Again, the basic moves and drills or Ji Ben Gong are practiced everyday. That is where your Kung Fu starts, comes from, your foundation to build on.

Good post. Except that your summary bears no resembelance to how a LOT of Kung Fu is trained.

[BlueTravesty]

Good post. Except that your summary bears no resembelance to how a LOT of Kung Fu is trained.

Rules me out too, since from this thread I can only glean that "a lot" of kung fu spends a lot of time training forms. We spend maybe 7-12 minutes of a one-hour class on forms, tops and in some classes we don't get to forms at all.

[SevenStar]

Haha...you could say that. I think Coach Ross used the best metaphor when he said kung fu training is like a really powerful bullet that doesn't have a gun ie a delivery system. Lately I've been working on the delivery system by sparring and I realize that forms don't do you a lot of good. It's the basics and short combos that are most important.


**** - Never thought I'd hear that outta you.

[SevenStar]

For me, my view of forms has evolved. I used to think they were very important for students as a sport specific exercise, but now my view has changed and I was thinking that they orignally were for teachers to use as a referance or a curriculem for thier students. Basically the TEACHERS practiced the forms to remember what techniques were best taught when, and for sport specific conditioning to be practiced as part of thier maintinance program, not to develop in the first place.

I think when the shift from fighting, to comercial schools useing martial arts for fittness came about, forms got the center stage because that was what was in more demand from the general public as fighting was less and less prominant.


mantis 108 has a good theory that he posted a few years ago. Basically, he was saying that there were two trains of thought - longfist protocol and short strike (?) protocol. The former is a never train of thought that involves teachers collecting multiple forms from various styles as a means of preserving them. Back in the day, there were few forms per style - a handful or less. that handful was used for training and various drills that the form(s) could be broken down into. Over time, CMA transitioned to the longfist protocol, for various reasons, which he did mention but i can't recall. Maybe he can chime in here.

[David Jamieson]

actually spj's list is how cma is practiced more or less.

basics / strength and power development (basics+forms+weight+devices)/ speed and accuracy development (single tech practice+drills+pad practice)/ force feedback (drills+devices+pad work+bag work+sparring)/ free fighting (self explanatory) / mental-physical binding aspect (qigong/neigong/meditations etc etc)

If you don't do forms that is totally fine. Doesn't mean in teh least that it's more efficient or effective though. It's just another way of doing...or not doing something. :p

[PangQuan]

wow, this is still going on? :eek:

[David Jamieson]

wow, this is still going on? :eek:


what do you mean? life the universe and everything? or this debate?

this debate will continue so long as people want to know.

[PangQuan]

ya, i know.

its just that i keep seeing the same explanations repeated so often that either people would either get it or drop it and move on.

you see and understand the benefits or you dont.

im just a stuborn fool.

[Ray Pina]

That's what it comes down to: the result!

I train my student this way:

5 minutes with boxing gloves (striking/shielding) ... full power

Lower body strenght training: a kind of squats, russian dancing, etc.

Work an idea/technique ie, how to come in on jab/hook, or how to break the clinch .... full power for clinch work, full power for striking depending on level (after 3 weeks, everyone's full power)

5 minutes with boxing gloves (striking/shielding) ... full power

Lower body strenght training: a kind of squats, russian dancing, etc.

Two man excerise to develop power and coordination of skills learned in idea/technique phase

5 minutes with boxing gloves (striking/shielding) ... full power

Lower body strenght training: a kind of squats, russian dancing, etc.

Then, depending on what we've been doing: rolling, chi sau, sparring or standing/sitting meditation


This is the basic structure. Same days I emphasize the ground, falling, clinch, some days kicking, anti-kicking, striking, anti-striking. The idea is that we're not the "punch harder! Faster!" type of school. And work on the mechanics of it so you feel the results instantly. You're punching one way, then "Hey, use more foot, more shoulder.... elbow down."

Also, don't like to spend much time talking up this or that. I show video when I win, I show video when I lose. We all know what we can do, and what we need to work on. I'm in it and doing everything with my student.


Compare this to a one hour class with 12 minutes of form, static stance training, warm up/cool down, maybe hold your arm out in the air drills.

My students would clobber a student training that way. My student sees form and can see if the person has power or not but knows form is like talking about how good you are. This is martial arts, no need to talk or show it in the air. Touch hands and everything is known right then and there.

[PangQuan]

true that.

[PangQuan]

form itself can be misleading...

some people will understand fighting better without the forms. you may see someone performing and say, "that guy sucks" and then be suprised when you see them fight.

form is only what you make of it.

use it correctly and it can work for you. mis use it and it will work against you.

we must be realistic about form. we must be drilled in application and understand what the movements are for. then we must adapt that to a live setting.

when you use a technique out of a form, chances are it will barely resemble the form. it will be similar but one must understand how to adapt the application to a resisting opponent and make it work.

otherwise form is useless.

[mantis108]

IMHO there are basically 2 approach (long fist and short strike) to traditional training.

Long fist's training format is more or less outlined by Ray Pina:


Compare this to a one hour class with 12 minutes of form, static stance training, warm up/cool down, maybe hold your arm out in the air drills.

This approach is also more for public and performing arts aspect. Modern Wushu takes up this model which is mainly for width and artistic merits.

Short strike format is about lots of basics (strength, timing, agility, etc), impact (hitting bags, poles, etc), 2 men drills and lots of them. Usually there would be about 24 - 36 combos (Da Ti Shuai Na all inclusive) that you will work with. This is more for practical applications and for depth. You would also spar in this format.

Most of the styles that I have come across actually take the pragmatic approach combining both methodologies in one. In that case, you will have 8 - 12 combos altogether or 8 - 12 in each element (ie 8 strikes, 8 kicks, 8 throws, and 8 locks). Then you would have different numbers of form but mostly would be 20 - 30 forms. Some would have even 2 men forms along side with drills.

Forms were like books and they were (and still are) revered as sacred information specific to the style. This is when traditional forms actually carried the mystical codes, trial and tested techniques (re: experience), tactics and strategies, etc. Now it has all rouined by modern Wushu, new age hippies ideas and XMA the likes. So... now is just a bunch of mindless acrabatic that string together. No wonder most people think form sucks these days. How can anyone teach form properly without classical training? So we might as well give it all up.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Invisible-fist]

"Forms are only a small part of Kung Fu training."

"But many schools ONLY train forms"

"Well at MY school we....."

"OK. But many schools ONLY train forms, so you can't generalize"

"Well at MY school we..."

In internet land everybody trains alive spars, full contact, and chews glass for breakfast. In the real world Kung fu training is often --not always--forms based or forms exclusive. There seems to be massive collective denial on this issue.

[Invisible-fist]

orms were like books and they were (and still are) revered as sacred information specific to the style. This is when traditional forms actually carried the mystical codes, trial and tested techniques (re: experience), tactics and strategies, etc. Now it has all rouined by modern Wushu, new age hippies ideas and XMA the likes. So... now is just a bunch of mindless acrabatic that string together. No wonder most people think form sucks these days. How can anyone teach form properly without classical training? So we might as well give it all up.


Wushu players are elite athletes that can jump rings around you. They've specialized in forms performance and they do it extremely well. Most TCMAers can't do forms OR fight.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

A lot of generalizations, here... the single most important factor in forms or sparring is the student's intentions.. the student will absorb the value inherent in forms or fighting according to the student's inclinations.. what wisdom exists in forms will not be evident to those that don't agree with it.. the wisdom of sparring will not be evident to the timid or inattentive casual "player"...

Certainly there is wisdom in the forms, but is is only "potential".. that potential manifests its reality in the testing of controlled combat and in the unfortunate real-life encounters.. first you read the textbook, then you take the test..

Be well..

[David Jamieson]

Wushu players are elite athletes that can jump rings around you. They've specialized in forms performance and they do it extremely well. Most TCMAers can't do forms OR fight.

dude, you're jusy sounding infantile, bitter and terribly uninformed in these last couple fo posts. Did you sh1t the bed or something this morning? :p

[mantis108]

Wushu players are elite athletes that can jump rings around you. They've specialized in forms performance and they do it extremely well. Most TCMAers can't do forms OR fight.

I will take the bait....

the "elite" athletes can dance all day for all I care. Sure you float like a butterfly if at all that but can you sting like a bee? If Modern Wushu can fight and is actually teaching or preparing someone for a fight why the hell they need to introduce San Shou the sport? Simple, it's because Modern Wushu is nothing but flowery fists and embroided legs period. This is fragmentation by sportification 101.

Tell me what the hell would this amazing "elite" athletes knows about traditional knowledge or culture? Tell me what do he or she knows about your basic Wu Bu Quan (5 step fist)? What is the point to this so call fundation building form? Is there a theme to it that actually tells the exponent something about himself and move him further down a path of mindy, body and spirit development? What is the theory behind it?

Now ask a not so "elite" traditional Kung Fu person about (oh I don't know) may be the concept of "San Zhan" (3 battles) which is a form that is quite common to most southern styles. The very basic concept of Qi and Chinese worldview is already being taught the very first day not to mention that you get the benefit of the style of fighting approach as well. Too complicated? How about one step three punches? That's easily enough.

So please go ahead and do your dance routine and I will also encourage you to take up Ballet or whatever dance that float your boat for your "cross training" (pun definitely intended). Who knows may be you can all of a sudden become enlighten by the nutcracker saber dance and create a Wushu nutcracker saber fencing school (then I promise I would not be laughing 'cause my jaw will be dropped and locked solid!) :eek: All the best to your athletic prowess, my friend.

How a good day!

Mantis108

[SevenStar]

"Forms are only a small part of Kung Fu training."

"But many schools ONLY train forms"

"Well at MY school we....."

"OK. But many schools ONLY train forms, so you can't generalize"

"Well at MY school we..."

In internet land everybody trains alive spars, full contact, and chews glass for breakfast. In the real world Kung fu training is often --not always--forms based or forms exclusive. There seems to be massive collective denial on this issue.


personally, I chew nails for breakfast. Glass is too delicate.

[PangQuan]

man, you gotta upgrade to bullets. thats some spice, yowzaa!

[SevenStar]

I almost hate to play devil's advocate in this case, but I think I see what invisible fist is getting at. a san shou guy focuses on san shou. His forms may be crud, but his fighting is top notch. the "wushu guy" focuses on form - his fighting may be cruddy, but his technique is top notch. a guy who practices forms, fighting, weapons, etc. may not be particularly good at any... he's calling such people a jack of all trades and master of none....

[Invisible-fist]

I will take the bait....

the "elite" athletes can dance all day for all I care Sure you float like a butterfly if at all that but can you sting like a bee? If Modern Wushu can fight and is actually teaching or preparing someone for a fight

Dude, nobody said that wushu can fight. Wushu isn’t FOR fighting. My point is the opposite.Attacking wushu for not fighting is like attacking Iaido for being impractical.

Heres the thing

1) Forms don’t teach you to fight.
2) Forms are still worth doing: They have cultural, aesthetic, spiritual, and health benefits. They have qualities that you wont get in other sports.



why the hell they need to introduce San Shou the sport?

Because they realized that forms and fighting were two different fields of endevour. (although they are both martial arts.) If they wanted to produce elite athletes, they had to separate the two. This was a smart decision. This way they were able to improve their fighting by adopting modern methods without losing the cultural and artistic value of forms training.


This is fragmentation by sportification 101.

Sport fighters beat “street” fighters every single time. Sport is good, it raises the level of athleticism.


Tell me what the hell would this amazing "elite" athletes knows about traditional knowledge or culture?

Quite a bit, actually. Why do you assume that wushu players don’t know Chinese culture? Most of them ARE Chinese.


Now ask a not so "elite" traditional Kung Fu person about (oh I don't know) may be the concept of "San Zhan" (3 battles) which is a form that is quite common to most southern styles.

So you’re putting down wushu for not doing a form that is not in their syllabus?


Tell me what do he or she knows about your basic Wu Bu Quan (5 step fist)?

Now you’ve stepped in it. Wu bu quan is a standard form in wushu. And they do it quite well.



Is there a theme to it that actually tells the exponent something about himself and move him further down a path of mindy, body and spirit development?

There’s PLENTY of mind, body, and spirit development in wushu.


The very basic concept of Qi and Chinese worldview is already being taught the very first day

You think there’s no qi in wushu? Try holding a swallow balance for two minutes. Ta’I Chi and the internal arts are part of wushu. Ever hear of Qi Gong master Tu Jin Sheng (the iron crotch guy)? He’s a big wushu supporter. His kids are major players and he judges tournaments. His school hosts my wushu class twice a week.



So please go ahead and do your dance routine and I will also encourage you to take up Ballet

Oooh! Snap! Wushu is like ballet and ballet is for girls – grow up! Actually I don’t think wushu is dance. It resembles dance, has a lot in common with dance, but its not dance. I think a better comparison would be to say that it’s a circus art…like tissu or arial (both of which I think are terrific art forms)

If you don’t like wushu, don’t do it. I think traditional Kung Fu is terrific (I practice it). But the TCMA community should start giving credit where it is due.

In addition to to everything I just said… wushu is MAD FUN!!

[PangQuan]

the only thing is, its one trade.

now were the martial artist also a carpenter, a painter, a potter, a police man, a banker, etc... taht would be jack of all trades....

i believe one can be well versed in fighting and form if they train hard enough, with enough time put in each day.

its all about hard work. train 8 hours a day 6 days a week, you can fill pretty well several areas in one trade.

[Invisible-fist]

the only thing is, its one trade.

now were the martial artist also a carpenter, a painter, a potter, a police man, a banker, etc... taht would be jack of all trades....

i believe one can be well versed in fighting and form if they train hard enough, with enough time put in each day.

its all about hard work. train 8 hours a day 6 days a week, you can fill pretty well several areas in one trade.

Absolutely. I agree.

[PangQuan]

heres the thing. modern sport wushu, is just that.

they dont claim to be any different. some fools may, but the real players never even think it.

they are what they are and they are better than the rest at thier art. these elite players of thier game will put anyone to shame at what they do.

thats why they dont try other venues. they are not trained for it, they are not fighters and dont claim such.

but to ridecule them for what they love to do, what they have mastered, would be the same as rideculing Johnny Cash for not being able to fight with his songs.

its silly and immature.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings.


Sport fighters beat “street” fighters every single time. Sport is good, it raises the level of athleticism. I don't know where you live.. but, the streets around here have some pretty nasty fellows hangin' around.. i'v seen too many sportfighters (good ones too) get busted-up thinking they're "all that".. A good sport-fighter doesn't make a good street-fighter automatically.. just like the sport arenas, you have to train in the "streets" to be a good street-fighter...

Be well..

[Invisible-fist]

Greetings.

I don't know where you live.. but, the streets around here have some pretty nasty fellows hangin' around.. i'v seen too many sportfighters (good ones too) get busted-up thinking they're "all that".. A good sport-fighter doesn't make a good street-fighter automatically.. just like the sport arenas, you have to train in the "streets" to be a good street-fighter...

Be well..


Sorry, I was unclear. When I said “Street” fighters I was being sarcastic. I didn’t mean real streetfighters, I meant the guys who practice eyepokes and compliant drills on each other and won’t spar or compete because they train for TEH STR33T.

[SevenStar]

the only thing is, its one trade.

now were the martial artist also a carpenter, a painter, a potter, a police man, a banker, etc... taht would be jack of all trades....

i believe one can be well versed in fighting and form if they train hard enough, with enough time put in each day.

its all about hard work. train 8 hours a day 6 days a week, you can fill pretty well several areas in one trade.


it's one trade with several facets. so, we'll coin a new term - jack of all facets. realistically, who trains 8 hours a day, 6 days a week?

heck, most "masters" are noted for one thing, maybe two.
pan qing fu - iron palm
yang jwing ming - chin na and qigong
chang tung sheng - shuai chiao

and so on. why aren't they renowned for EVERYTHING? because there are so many facets?

[mantis108]

Dude, nobody said that wushu can fight. Wushu isn’t FOR fighting. My point is the opposite.Attacking wushu for not fighting is like attacking Iaido for being impractical.

Well, good you proclaim Wushu isn't FOR fighting not me. So in that case wouldn't it be better that Modern Wushu change the Chinese character from Wu (martial) to Wu (Dance)? That way we won't be confused and there's no need to argue for its validatity at all. As far as Iaido goes, I believe it does demostrate object cutting with its forms which contain the 4 elements of sword drawing. Now, personally, I won't want to face off with an Iaido guy with the drawn sword whether he has good form or not. Since you have said Modern Wushu isn't FOR fighting, I guess I have no point to argue about it's potential for fighting.


Heres the thing

1) Forms don’t teach you to fight.

According to the limited and brainwashed perspective of Modern Wushu perhaps. Because as you stated there is no potential for fighting in Wushu.


2) Forms are still worth doing: They have cultural, aesthetic, spiritual, and health benefits. They have qualities that you wont get in other sports.

Sorry, I think you might have confused the feel good ego masturbation in spectator sports with spirituality. If in fact Modern Wushu is a sport how is it possible that it has qualities that other sports won't get? Sport is sport or am I missing something here?


Because they realized that forms and fighting were two different fields of endevour.

Call it what you will. It's fragmentation by sportification of Chinese martial academia.


(although they are both martial arts.)

You have stated Modern Wushu isn't for fighting and it's a sport how the hack it became martial and arts again? It's like a dog that's chasing its tail. There's no end to it. Man, I think you need to sort out your terms and definitions before you start arguing any further.


If they wanted to produce elite athletes, they had to separate the two. This was a smart decision. This way they were able to improve their fighting by adopting modern methods without losing the cultural and artistic value of forms training.

The assumption about traditional training is so flaw that I don't where to begin. If that's the line your modern Wushu "coaches" selling you then so be it.


Sport fighters beat “street” fighters every single time. Sport is good, it raises the level of athleticism.

What did Bruce Lee once said? I paraphrase "Biting is a good tool in close quartered combat but don't make a plan of biting some one or it's a sure way to lose all your teeth." No sound training methodology in traditional Kung Fu that I have came across ever taught or confused the so called "street tactics" or dirty tricks as the delivery system. This is a myth that's perpetuated by Mcdojo, Mckwoon and Master wanabe. It is a stigma that legit traditional Kung Fu people has to endure.

BTW, you are right that sport is good, it does raise the level of athleticism. I never say that sport is bad. If Wushu wants to be a sport and stay as a sport that's find by me. But please don't let those Wushu brainwashed idiots to compare real and legit Kung Fu teachers to barbars, cooks, just about anyone else (not that I am class divisive or a snob). Kung Fu as an authentic Chinese martial arts is a distinct tradition that is developed and evolved since thousands of years in China. So please at least give those people some credit and respect.


Quite a bit, actually. Why do you assume that wushu players don’t know Chinese culture? Most of them ARE Chinese.

So you are telling me that you and everyone else in Wushu are Chinese? You know all things Chinese culture? Would you care to share you view on Chinese culture with us then? Why is there Buddhism in Kung Fu when clearly we can simply go with Daoism and Confucius ideas? Oh I forgot Wushu is a sport, never mind.


So you’re putting down wushu for not doing a form that is not in their syllabus?

No, I put down people who do not care to know themselves as sentient beings - where they came from, where they are at, and where they are going. I also put down people who confuse ego masturbation with spirituality. IMHO your so called Wushu syllabus is a joke if it is not a farce as pretained to teach martial arts. But then by your admission it really should be a sport program not a syllabus.


Now you’ve stepped in it. Wu bu quan is a standard form in wushu. And they do it quite well.

Doing it well means what? It's like asking kids (not saying that you are) about Hockey "what do you like about hockey?" They would say," oh I can skate hard and I can go hard at it, it's fun." "So what exactly do you like about hockey?". "I can go really really fast on skates, it's fun." And they go on and on the samething about a silly game that means nothing. So that's the same mindset in Wushu eh?


There’s PLENTY of mind, body, and spirit development in wushu.

So you are telling us. But where is the illustration? So the vague word "PLENTY" is how mind, body and spirit is developed in Wushu? Now, I am enlightened. All I have to do is to recite "PLENTY" thousands of time and I will get it in Wushu. Please, dude, if you want to argue for Modern Wushu at least put some thoughts into your reply. I am thinking we are pretty much done here.


You think there’s no qi in wushu? Try holding a swallow balance for two minutes. Ta’I Chi and the internal arts are part of wushu. Ever hear of Qi Gong master Tu Jin Sheng (the iron crotch guy)? He’s a big wushu supporter. His kids are major players and he judges tournaments. His school hosts my wushu class twice a week.

I guess David Copperfield or any member of the Circque du Solie knows Qi very well too. No offense to Master Tu, I would rather spend time on rolling around in the hay with a girl then to learn to tie my balls up for an extended period of time. Wants groin protection? Wear a cup, learn good footwork and blocks, and be aware that someone is trying to kick you in the balls.

It's very good of him to support your school. More power to you and him.


Oooh! Snap! Wushu is like ballet and ballet is for girls – grow up! Actually I don’t think wushu is dance. It resembles dance, has a lot in common with dance, but its not dance. I think a better comparison would be to say that it’s a circus art…like tissu or arial (both of which I think are terrific art forms)

point taken it's a circus art. :eek:


If you don’t like wushu, don’t do it. I think traditional Kung Fu is terrific (I practice it). But the TCMA community should start giving credit where it is due.

In addition to to everything I just said… wushu is MAD FUN!!

Let's face it and be honest. Wushu, Master Tu's specialty and not to mention the shinny trophies from the Wushu tournaments are drawing people into your school and this is why you are selling it. Just be frank, no need for beating around the bush, my friend. It's America no one would fault you on commericalism. If we have a market for Taebo or cardio Kickboxing in my area, I would have included it in my school too. But then I don't have a commerical school so...

Mantis108

[PangQuan]

i have learned 3 wushu forms, one being competition class. northern longfist wushu.

my master teaches application from our long fist. so i KNOW there is potential in the movements of wushu to be adapted to a combat training format, if you so wish.

it depends on the person whom holds the knowledge and what they choose to do with it.

the wu is meant for martial the shu is meant for play or act or art.

the derivitive is martial, to change the character from martial to dance would remove the rooted implication as to where the movements originated.

i can show you a wushu form, and i can show you the application.

no potential? says the man who knows not the applications.

[Invisible-fist]

Well, good you proclaim Wushu isn't FOR fighting not me. So in that case wouldn't it be better that Modern Wushu change the Chinese character from Wu (martial) to Wu (Dance)? That way we won't be confused and there's no need to argue for its validatity at all.

Wushu is still martial arts. The skills that it cultivates (Stances, punches, kicks, thrusts, chops) are the same. The skills are totally transferrable. If you saw basic wushu longfist next to traditional chaquan, you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference. They just focus on developing the athletics. The traditionalist develops low stance: the wushu player develps a stance that nearly puts his butt on the floor. The traditionalist does an iron broom sweep, the wushu player does the same sweep, but goes around two or three times.

I see wushu as being like rodeo. Rodeo is a competetive perfomance of cowboy skills. No cowboy will ever be called upon to ride a bull, but it provides a challenging test of his riding skills, just as wushu doesn’t train street fightesr but challenges skills that are used in martial arts like stances, jumps, and form.

Another analogy is miltary parade drill. At one time this was a martial art…they actually marched onto the battelfield in formation. Now it is performance and ritual. Parade drill even includes useless flourishy moves, like when they spin the rifles. This isn’t directly applicable to fighting anymore but they keep it around for tradition, and because it develops qulities in soldiers…discipline, following orders, and esprit de corps.

I do believe that wushu is excellent cross training for TMA, and many masters are proficient in both (would you call Pan “Iron Fist” Qing Fu a pansy pajama dancer?)


As far as Iaido goes, I believe it does demostrate object cutting with its forms which contain the 4 elements of sword drawing.

My point was that Iaido is obsolete, unless you walk around with a sword on your hip. People don’t study Iaido to learn how to fight.





According to the limited and brainwashed perspective of Modern Wushu perhaps. Because as you stated there is no potential for fighting in Wushu.

Also according to the limited and brainwashed perspective of MMA. No MMA trainer that I’m aware of trains forms.


Quote:
2) Forms are still worth doing: They have cultural, aesthetic, spiritual, and health benefits. They have qualities that you wont get in other sports.



Sorry, I think you might have confused the feel good ego masturbation in spectator sports with spirituality.

There is also “feel good ego masturbation” in performing compliant drills and fantasizing about being teh D3adly.

You seem to feel that sport cannot be spiritual. I don’t think that’s true. I don’t play golf, but I’ve been told that it is fantastic for developing Zen Mind. I know that its true for pool…the mind must be empty at the moment of the shot. A Zen Buddhist friend of mine recommended a book called “the Inner Game of Tennis” as one of the best books on Zen.



If in fact Modern Wushu is a sport how is it possible that it has qualities that other sports won't get? Sport is sport or am I missing something here?

Every sport is different.

I believe that there is something very special about Chinese Martial Arts that you don’t get in other movement disciplines. You develop low stance, fluid movement, deep chi, and a particular type of neuromuscular awareness. CMA reeducates the entire organism in a way that you just don’t get in other martial arts.

You mentioned ballet. Ballet is a VERY different discipline from wushu. Ballet has extremely western style movement: The joints are locked out, the chi is carried high, and the movements are stiff and precise.


Quote:
Because they realized that forms and fighting were two different fields of endevour.




Call it what you will. It's fragmentation by sportification of Chinese martial academia.

What do you mean by that?



You have stated Modern Wushu isn't for fighting and it's a sport how the hack it became martial and arts again? It's like a dog that's chasing its tail. There's no end to it. Man, I think you need to sort out your terms and definitions before you start arguing any further.

Its simple: Martial arts are Not Just About Fighting. This isn’t a modern development.

Most JMA had become tools of spiritual endeavor and cultural transmission by the time of the Edo period.

Kung Fu was developed to teach meditation to monks.

CMA as performance art goes WAAY back. Probably to the peaceful Song Dynasty.

Most people don’t take T’ai Chi to learn how to fight. Same with Iaido. Even Aikido.

If martial arts are just about fighting, and the measure of a martial art is how well it fights, then we should just abolish all martial arts and turn them into MMA. (Which is what Bullshido seems to be advocating)


CONTINUED

[Invisible-fist]

The assumption about traditional training is so flaw that I don't where to begin. If that's the line your modern Wushu "coaches" selling you then so be it.

What asssumption am I making about traditional training and why is it flawed?




What did Bruce Lee once said? I paraphrase "Biting is a good tool in close quartered combat but don't make a plan of biting some one or it's a sure way to lose all your teeth." No sound training methodology in traditional Kung Fu that I have came across ever taught or confused the so called "street tactics" or dirty tricks as the delivery system. This is a myth that's perpetuated by Mcdojo, Mckwoon and Master wanabe. It is a stigma that legit traditional Kung Fu people has to endure.

Sorry. I should have said sport fighters beat TMA’ers.


BTW, you are right that sport is good, it does raise the level of athleticism. I never say that sport is bad. If Wushu wants to be a sport and stay as a sport that's find by me.

That’s all I’m saying. TMA’ers putting down wushu is just as dumb as MMA’ers putting down TMA. They are different things, working on different projects. Martial Arts is a house with many mansions.


But please don't let those Wushu brainwashed idiots to compare real and legit Kung Fu teachers to barbars, cooks, just about anyone else (not that I am class divisive or a snob).

Compare them to barbers and cooks? What do you mean?


Kung Fu as an authentic Chinese martial arts is a distinct tradition that is developed and evolved since thousands of years in China. So please at least give those people some credit and respect.

Definitely. I have tremendous respect for TCMA. Also for MMA. They are all different things with different goals, they should be able to coexist.





So you are telling me that you and everyone else in Wushu are Chinese?

Of course not. I said “most” not “all”.


You know all things Chinese culture?

Dude, NOBODY knows all things Chinese culture.


Would you care to share you view on Chinese culture with us then? Why is there Buddhism in Kung Fu when clearly we can simply go with Daoism and Confucius ideas?

Well kung fu was developed by Buddhists, by the founder of Zen, as a buddhist practice. So martial arts and Buddhism are intricately intertwined. Buddhism, and Ch’an in particular was a popular religion for warriors: the cultivation of Zen Mind was percieved of as being excellent training for warrior skills…a mind trained by meditation could shoot straighter. Also the buddhist philosophy of non-attatchment produced a fearlessness in the face of death.

Taoism produced its own martial arts: the Wudang internal family of MA. These are very different from the Buddhist Shaolin tradition. One is external, the other internal. Aside from this, the movement quality of the two is very different.

Confucianism is irrelevant. It focusses on societal pietas, rather than personal spiritual development. Confucianism permeates Chinese society, and is present in martial culture, but there are no Confucian martial arts.





Doing it well means what? It's like asking kids (not saying that you are) about Hockey "what do you like about hockey?" They would say," oh I can skate hard and I can go hard at it, it's fun." "So what exactly do you like about hockey?". "I can go really really fast on skates, it's fun." And they go on and on the samething about a silly game that means nothing.

The Tao that can be told is not the true Tao.



Quote:
There’s PLENTY of mind, body, and spirit development in wushu.


So you are telling us. But where is the illustration?

Stand in a horse stance for an hour, and you will develop qi, whether you want to or not.






I guess David Copperfield or any member of the Circque du Solie knows Qi very well too.

Well copperfields a hack, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the cirque guys had good qi. In the original sense of the word, they have good “kung fu.”



No offense to Master Tu, I would rather spend time on rolling around in the hay with a girl then to learn to tie my balls up for an extended period of time.

You and me both! : O




Let's face it and be honest. Wushu, Master Tu's specialty and not to mention the shinny trophies from the Wushu tournaments are drawing people into your school and this is why you are selling it. Just be frank, no need for beating around the bush, my friend. It's America no one would fault you on commericalism. If we have a market for Taebo or cardio Kickboxing in my area, I would have included it in my school too. But then I don't have a commerical school so...

I’m not running a school, I’m a student. But I don’t think wushu is particularly commercial. If you want commercialism, you want Karotty or TKD. Master Tu has nothing to do with it, we’re separate schools, he just happens to be tight with my teachers. (They train his kids).

[WinterPalm]

I think that Mantis108 just defeated wushu!:eek: :D

[Invisible-fist]

I think that Mantis108 just defeated wushu!:eek: :D

Not tillhe responds to my last post. :)

[mantis108]

Sorry, I have been busy the last couple of days. Here it goes...


Wushu is still martial arts. The skills that it cultivates (Stances, punches, kicks, thrusts, chops) are the same. The skills are totally transferrable. If you saw basic wushu longfist next to traditional chaquan, you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference. They just focus on developing the athletics. The traditionalist develops low stance: the wushu player develps a stance that nearly puts his butt on the floor. The traditionalist does an iron broom sweep, the wushu player does the same sweep, but goes around two or three times.

Have you heard of the old expression "painting legs onto a picture of a snake"? That's what your so called "athletic attributes" are about. The point is whoever created modern Wushu can't really improve on the truth/Kung Fu (the snake). So they draw a painting of a snake (modern wushu) but still they can't improve on the original; thus they painted on the legs (athletic attributes) just to make the snake seems better. Now, artistic licensing is fine (to a certain extend). Altering the truth altogether is a serious misconduct. The "skills" that are developed by MWS DO NOT directly translated into fighting skills. This is why MWS can't fight and you will need to learn a TOTALLY DIFFERENT set of fighting skills (ie San Shou) if you do MWS. This is not traditional training which is based on unification not isolation. The athletic attribute that you desire is the end and is a limited one. You are justifying the means with the end.


I see wushu as being like rodeo. Rodeo is a competetive perfomance of cowboy skills. No cowboy will ever be called upon to ride a bull, but it provides a challenging test of his riding skills, just as wushu doesn’t train street fightesr but challenges skills that are used in martial arts like stances, jumps, and form.

I came to this "debate" with you because you said Modern Wushu can dance circles around traditional guys implying that MWS can fight and would be more efficient. Now you said that it doesn't train people to fight. This dance or rather challenge skills as you call it that has nothing to do with fighting should be discerned by a different character "Wu/dance" not "Wu/Martial". End of story. BTW, I am not much of a cowboy but is that a "bull riding form" in Rodeo? :eek: How the heck can you draw that analogy?


Another analogy is miltary parade drill. At one time this was a martial art…they actually marched onto the battelfield in formation. Now it is performance and ritual. Parade drill even includes useless flourishy moves, like when they spin the rifles. This isn’t directly applicable to fighting anymore but they keep it around for tradition, and because it develops qulities in soldiers…discipline, following orders, and esprit de corps.

I don't know much about western military exercises. But I have read ancient Chinese record that indicate there might just be "form" on the battlefield that was used to express the ferocity of the troops and to intimidate the opponents. "form" training evidently still pretty much alive in Ming dynasty (1368-1644 CE) military training. Much of the so called "Southern Shaolin" might have big military influence. Hand to hand combat plays little part in the grand schemes of modern warfare. It's rather meaningless to use that analogy here.


I do believe that wushu is excellent cross training for TMA, and many masters are proficient in both (would you call Pan “Iron Fist” Qing Fu a pansy pajama dancer?)

With all due respect to "Iron Fist" Pan, no offense, I won't call a person parading around with deformed knuckles smart master either. :(


My point was that Iaido is obsolete, unless you walk around with a sword on your hip. People don’t study Iaido to learn how to fight.

Iaido is no more obsolete than any other TMA or MA (ie Wushu by your definition) for that matter. So... What's the point to bring that up in the first place.


Also according to the limited and brainwashed perspective of MMA. No MMA trainer that I’m aware of trains forms.

Ah... but TCMA have both form and fighting not form or fighting. It is logically more than likely that TCMA understand both end of the spectrum better than other paths. This is why TCMA is a sound choice and perhaps even a better choice than Modern Wushu just for that reason alone IMHO.


Quote:
2) Forms are still worth doing: They have cultural, aesthetic, spiritual, and health benefits. They have qualities that you wont get in other sports.

There is also “feel good ego masturbation” in performing compliant drills and fantasizing about being teh D3adly.

You seem to feel that sport cannot be spiritual. I don’t think that’s true. I don’t play golf, but I’ve been told that it is fantastic for developing Zen Mind. I know that its true for pool…the mind must be empty at the moment of the shot. A Zen Buddhist friend of mine recommended a book called “the Inner Game of Tennis” as one of the best books on Zen.

Every sport is different.

The more I read about your arguments. The more I find that you like to justify the means with the end. The Zen Mind that you talked about or rather you read about is a technique or spiritual mean if you will which you perceived as the end. You use that to justify your argument of spirituality in sport/art/whatever. It is a window to look inside the house not the house itself. So please don't confuse the issue. :) I think you will have to provide some tangible insights from your beloved Wushu in order for us to see the "elusive" or at present secondary report of spirituality supposedly found within it.


I believe that there is something very special about Chinese Martial Arts that you don’t get in other movement disciplines. You develop low stance, fluid movement, deep chi, and a particular type of neuromuscular awareness. CMA reeducates the entire organism in a way that you just don’t get in other martial arts.

Oh, I agreed if it is TCMA. Modern Wushu fail to qualify for the job because it is lacking in every aspect - it is a drawing of a snake with legs no more no less.


You mentioned ballet. Ballet is a VERY different discipline from wushu. Ballet has extremely western style movement: The joints are locked out, the chi is carried high, and the movements are stiff and precise.

Funny you just described a vivid picture of Wushu form for me. :eek:


Quote:
Because they realized that forms and fighting were two different fields of endevour.

What do you mean by that?

It is the PRC's intention to break down, dumb down and water down that scholarly studies of martial arts which is an ancient tradition of China. PRC would want to have nothing to do with tradition and free thinking scholars under the vision of Mao. This politically motivated directive is behind the fragmentation by sportification of martial academia. Coupling with equating martial artists with cooks, taxi drivers, or any grass root level trade, martial arts is but a dumb down "sport". It may be cool to you and to those who don't like to exercise the most important muscle between the ears, but it's just gut wrenching to see people being fool by that.


Its simple: Martial arts are Not Just About Fighting. This isn’t a modern development.

Most JMA had become tools of spiritual endeavor and cultural transmission by the time of the Edo period.

sorry short on time to argue about that point. May come back to it later.


Kung Fu was developed to teach meditation to monks.

Any other assumption that's faulty.


CMA as performance art goes WAAY back. Probably to the peaceful Song Dynasty.

Song dynasty peaceful? Wow, do you study Chinese history at all?


Most people don’t take T’ai Chi to learn how to fight. Same with Iaido. Even Aikido.

Most people are uninformed or misinformed. It's not a good enough reason to again use the end to justify the mean IMHO.


If martial arts are just about fighting, and the measure of a martial art is how well it fights, then we should just abolish all martial arts and turn them into MMA. (Which is what Bullshido seems to be advocating)


CONTINUED

Here's spirituality 101, my friend. There are many degrees of truth. Form training is like the wave of conciousness; while fighting is like the particle of it. Either one exists without the other. A martial training that cover one area is not providing a complete and thorough picture to the full potential of martial arts. Please don't justify the means with the perceived end.

More to come later...

Mantis108

[mantis108]

What asssumption am I making about traditional training and why is it flawed?

Quote:
If they wanted to produce elite athletes, they had to separate the two. This was a smart decision. This way they were able to improve their fighting by adopting modern methods without losing the cultural and artistic value of forms training.

You know when I read this it reminded me of the movie "San Da" by Tsui Hak. It is a moive to promote San Shou the sport so it make the scripted assumption that traditional Kung Fu stylist can't fight and it got beat by the San Shou fighters because they are "better" fighters that train with "modern methods". In all fairness, those who have never seen or never been taught in the classical way. We have now a bunch of generation X, Y or Z that have more interest in instant gratification that allow the end to justify the end. The classical way places the steps or method above results. It is the journey not just the destination that completes us. Without this understanding, there is no Chinese martial arts. The sports that you rave abot is already a lot cause. As soon as you started to accept the end to justify the means (modern methods) you have already fundamentally lost the cultural and artistic value of forms training.


Sorry. I should have said sport fighters beat TMA’ers.

Really? sport fighters as in San Shou? You are entitled to your opinion. But I think you are very much ill informed. But that's not your fault. I would say it's the propaganda BS by the sport promoters. I have seen and experienced traditional body weight, impact, equipment, drills, etc training that even reasonably athletic people have problem with. Not to mention the fight training. Actually some of those can be found in "modern training" as well. So I would not make any assumption about the "weakness" of legit traditional fighters.


That’s all I’m saying. TMA’ers putting down wushu is just as dumb as MMA’ers putting down TMA. They are different things, working on different projects. Martial Arts is a house with many mansions.

IMHO TCMA has every right to put down Wushu although most of the TCMA people won't bother to speak out as I would. Wushu is a cheap inmitation of the real original. Why should a knock off that infringes on the legitimacy of martial academia which is an unique heritage of Chinese culture that can be shared by and benefit the world? Why should it occupy the lime light? Riding on the tail coat of a brand name is one thing. Infringing on or even altering intellectual property is another.


Compare them to barbers and cooks? What do you mean?

Check the interviews with Jet Li and other mainland "Wushu" people.


Definitely. I have tremendous respect for TCMA. Also for MMA. They are all different things with different goals, they should be able to coexist.

Coexist, sure I couldn't care less about what people want or like to do. It is a free world. I have respect for all "martial arts" providing it is indeed a martial art. But I don't appreciate the fact that ignorant comments from ignorant, ill-infromed individual (not saying you are) about all things concerning TCMA. If they don't understand it or have not experienced in first hand, please please STFU.



Of course not. I said “most” not “all”.

Dude, NOBODY knows all things Chinese culture.

Ok, I am going to let this slide.


Well kung fu was developed by Buddhists, by the founder of Zen, as a buddhist practice. So martial arts and Buddhism are intricately intertwined. Buddhism, and Ch’an in particular was a popular religion for warriors: the cultivation of Zen Mind was percieved of as being excellent training for warrior skills…a mind trained by meditation could shoot straighter. Also the buddhist philosophy of non-attatchment produced a fearlessness in the face of death.

Well, I think you are properly a bit too busy in doing your physically challenging Wushu moves that you don't bother much to do reality checking with story like the one that you mentioned. But if that's your believe, that's find by me.


Taoism produced its own martial arts: the Wudang internal family of MA. These are very different from the Buddhist Shaolin tradition. One is external, the other internal. Aside from this, the movement quality of the two is very different.

*sigh* More flawed assumptions. I don't think it's your fault though. I think it's lies in the guidence or rather lack there of from your coach that's the problem. :(


Confucianism is irrelevant. It focusses on societal pietas, rather than personal spiritual development. Confucianism permeates Chinese society, and is present in martial culture, but there are no Confucian martial arts.

Confucianism is irrelevant? Do you have any idea of the impact and influence that it has on the Chinese military and civilian Kung Fu, and subsequently the martial arts manuscripts that came from there? BTW, do you know that Confucius was known to carry swords and promoted archery as a "gentlemen's sport"? Are you aware that there is an militant faction of Confuciansim spinned off to become what is known as Mo Jia?


The Tao that can be told is not the true Tao.

Stand in a horse stance for an hour, and you will develop qi, whether you want to or not.

I am simply lost of words. ...


Well copperfields a hack, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the cirque guys had good qi. In the original sense of the word, they have good “kung fu.”

So now traditional stylists are equivalent to clowns and cirque folks...:eek:


You and me both! : O

I’m not running a school, I’m a student. But I don’t think wushu is particularly commercial. If you want commercialism, you want Karotty or TKD. Master Tu has nothing to do with it, we’re separate schools, he just happens to be tight with my teachers. (They train his kids).

I appreciate the dialogue and enjoy the debate. I would like to say that I have nothing personal against you, your school, and any other masters. If my attitude and comments are harsh and offensive to you, I apologize to you. I just can't not stand by and let misinformation and assumption about Kung Fu unchallenged, and taken as facts.

Regards

Mantis108