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firepalm
05-25-2006, 02:26 PM
Recently I've noticed a number of threads here that have touched on topics of Chinese Martial Arts such as; usefullness or purpose of forms, Wushu, what is CMA, is it antiquated etc....

Curious as to the view points out there on what is good CMA? And how would you define CMA?

Myself I don't view CMA as a whole as having one specific definition. CMA to me encompasses a broad spectrum of things, it is multidimensional and includes not only self defense / fighting skills (although many CMA instructors are lacking in this area) but also includes culture, art, sport, philosphy, etc...

Modern Wushu and Sport San Shou are not the only or final definition of CMA but they do represent one aspect of CMA and in many cases they show the truly high levels that can be attained in their respective areas.

CMA also includes things like Lion Dance, Tai Chi, Qigong, TCM, etc... they are also representative of some of the varying aspects of CMA but unto themselves they do not represent or define CMA.

50 years ago you might have been able to point to most traditional Chinese Martial Arts practices and stated that IS Chinese Martial Arts but I don't feel that is the case anymore. So much has changed in recent times; movies (Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, Jet Li, the Matrix, etc...), Modern Wushu & Sport San Shou, the Shaolin subculture (ie; travelling monks shows & such), the huge spread of Tai Chi (albeit a quiet revolution), Communism in China, commercialization of martial arts as a whole, NHB/UFC/MMA/Gracies and even things like pop culture (Wushu in music videos and such). All these things have changed the perceptions & expectations of CMA. Are all these things right or wrong? Well it's all subject to debate but the fact is CMA is unlike all other brands of Asian martial arts.

Essentially I believe CMA has become a umbrella of sorts that covers a lot of different areas of training & physical cultural endeavours.

So what is good CMA? Here's where my comments may come under fire, I personally feel a lot of traditional instructors have fallen behind the times and are not very professional (of course there are certainly those out there that are but they are the minority). However what I see as even more of a problem is the instructor's identifying of their own motivations for teaching a pupil; are they trying to preserve an art form or teach someone a skill set? What is their priority and more importantly have they ever thought to ask themselves this question?

While I would agree that one doesn't need to learn forms to learn how to fight, forms do have their merit - to a certain extent. However when a traditional school requires the learning of dozens upon dozens of forms & constant forms training taking priority over other areas such as application training, bag work, conditioning, sparring, etc... then they are no different then a school teaching Modern Wushu. This to me is bad CMA, many traditional teachers will strangely condemn Modern Wushu but then train only forms themselves, odd! Bad CMA.... Form training without application training & sparring is bad CMA...

One of the worst things in Traditional CMA to me is when an instructor falls back on the old outdated comment of oh we don't do that in our style! In this day and age with the advent of NHB/UFC/MMA etc.... it should be obvious that fighting can go to the ground but how many TCMA schools address it. Are you training some one to be able to fight / defend themselves or trying to preserve a traditional system that doesn't actually encompass all aspects of fighting / self defense? If one is professing to developing self defense / fighting skills then the pupil should take priority!

A friend went to China a year or two ago and trained at a full time school in the north of China and told me how they would train the Wushu & acrobatics but then would also do traditional forms, San Shou and wrestling / ground fighting (and not just take downs). To me sounds like good CMA, although it is a full time school and few in the west would invest all the time required to learn all those topics.

Modern Wushu is generally good for young people and I believe most teaching it will admit that it is a sport and don't usually profess that practicing a lot of forms, jumps and acrobatics will make you a deadly fighting machine. I believe it is good for strength, fitness, coordination & confidence development of young people. The foundations they get from this training can carry over into other martial arts training and other sports.

I believe good CMA, like anything, is honest and doesn't profess to be something it is not. Unfortunately a lot of instructors (primarily traditional ones) aren't open minded enough or progressive thinking enough and ultimately hamper the development of their arts. I think CMA instructors should try to become more professional (not just in a business sense) & look at their motivations for doing what they do.

Anyhow that is my long winded tagent, just interested to know other views out there! ;)

Water Dragon
05-25-2006, 04:02 PM
all I have to say is: frat

mantis108
05-25-2006, 04:10 PM
Once upon a time, TCMA meant to be holistic and in unison with the academic counter part. The unltimate goal is to serve the country while at the same time serves the individual ultimate need (ie the search of spirituality) with one set of academia. Basically, the Nei Sheng Wai Wang model.

Sportification of TCMA as in the modern Wushu and Sport San Shou is unfortunately the fragmentation of TCMA as a whole. It is also the seperation of classical academia and martial arts. In essence, it is one stone 2 birds destruction of tradition values in China. It is the begining of the end for TCMA if the trend continues. Fortunately, there are signs that this trend is slowing down with the new direction that China is moving towards open market policy.

I hear you on the professionalism and motivation. I would agree that TCMA teachers should do a big deal of soul searching if they don't want to become the endanger martial arts spieces. But then again if the market is there for mediocre transmission... remember there are always suckers born every minute... all it takes is a "smart" guy to pull a fast one. So Caveat Emptor is a golden rule.

Mantis108

hungganyc
05-25-2006, 07:29 PM
this thread is way over due. good idea FirePalm.

First let me address the fighting thing. CMA has a very broad range of fighting skills. Much of what the so-called MMA are doing today is also part of CMA. There seems to be a misconception about what CMA or "Gung Fu"means. For
For example, there are a few styles, schools, and sifu's under the CMA banner that have teaching ground fighting skills long before you heard of MMA or the Gracies. Another misconception is that the CMA forms make up an entire system. Most of us know that many techniques and skills in CMA are trained outside of the pillar forms. Yes it's an umbrella that covers most of what you see today using trendy names

There are many things that make up a good cma, so i'll point out three things that i feel are important:

1. Emphasis on fighting.
2. Personal development (physical, spiritual, health, etc.)
3. Tradition & Ettiquette (ethics, respect, codes of conduct, etc.)

The things that many people aren't getting is that those guys who stepped away from what they considered CMA into MMA or whatever, actually didn't step away from CMA. They simply stepped into an environment where fighting and what works for them was the emphasis. This is what CMA schools today need to recognize in order for traditional CMA to continue and come full circle again. CMA is a novel of information in regards to fighting. There's nothing new guys. only guys who don't know how to teach CMA and others who don't know the potential of CMA.

If someone claims to be teaching CMA or kung Fu and they only practice forms without any emphasis on application, fighting, or tradition then there's a problem.
Many schools are dressing up their "studios" and students to look the role of cma, but underneath all that they're no more than dancers. If that's their thing, cool no problem, but they shouldn't misrepresent themselves as "traditional CMA" to sell students.

The majority of CMA schools in the U.S. are fakes. They're capitalizing on the popularity of kung fu movies and magazines.

"you might be in a fake cma school if the instructor is only 30 years old and calls himself grand master"

"you might be in a fake cma school if your founder looks like Chubaka from Star Wars"

"you might be in a fake cma school if your master claims to teach a style secretly passed down to him & nobody else called the Five Deadly Venoms"

jethro
05-25-2006, 07:53 PM
"you might be in a fake cma school if your founder looks like Chubaka from Star Wars"

"

know it's a joke but is this guy real. https://taichiamerica.com/erle%20montaigue%20bio.htm

hungganyc
05-25-2006, 08:10 PM
Jethro

i've heard of this guy. i haven't seen or heard anything from him.
What do you think about his bio;)

Hung

jethro
05-25-2006, 08:31 PM
his bio is good, but I watch a lot of movies, so I could proabably pull out a secret style like lohan sleeping fist.


But seriously, this guy is one of my favs and he has some good deomstrations on that site. I have learned some good general punching techniques from him. Heres one of his demonstrations. He looks skilled to me. https://taichiamerica.com/taijibroadsword.htm

Green Cloud
05-25-2006, 08:39 PM
Who was that guy in that video Cheech or Chong, can you say soooeyy.

jethro
05-25-2006, 08:55 PM
I am p.m.ing juna right now, he is getting all of this guys awards together :mad:




well, found out juna doesn't like this guy anyway.

MyDrills
05-25-2006, 09:09 PM
erle montague is good in cma.

well.. back to the topic

how to define good cma?

for me its simple, just compare the fighting principles. thats it :)

David Jamieson
05-25-2006, 09:51 PM
1.Is there a method
2.Does the method deliver what it says it will
3.Is the result effective


that's about it for me.

Ben Gash
05-26-2006, 03:52 AM
My Hung Gar Sifu and Sihing train with Earle Montaigue, and they say he's the real deal. I think the Chewbaca comment was a Shaolin Do joke ;)
For me, CMA is about bridging. How you approach your opponent's guard and how you penetrate it using hand and footwoork is the signature of TCMA. Lack of this is what causes all the "why do kung fu guys look like bad kickboxers?" posts.

hungganyc
05-26-2006, 06:02 AM
Ah now i see why you asked me about Montaigue:)
The Chubaka comment wasn't about Montaigue.

Back to topic. figthing emphasis & effectiveness is good CMA.
I always throw in Tradition because that's what sets us apart from the average martial artist who wants to use his skills for the wrong reasons.

Ray Pina
05-26-2006, 06:31 AM
Myself I don't view CMA as a whole as having one specific definition. CMA to me encompasses a broad spectrum of things, it is multidimensional and includes not only self defense / fighting skills (although many CMA instructors are lacking in this area) but also includes culture, art, sport, philosphy, etc...

You are confusing CMA with Chinese aestheticism.

Great Chinese men were painters, musicians, philosophers AND martial artists. Now, you can have MA influence in your music and painting if that's who you are; after all, you are what you are. But don't blend it all together and remove the significant part of each.

Good CMA has the qualities of good martial arts everywhere: structure; mechanics; leverage; crisp, sharp, heavy power; technique; speed.

Without that, your martial arts are incomplete and lacking. All martial arts are incomplete, but these are the prerequisites.

I'm sorry, you can't back your way into being a nonproficient fighter by toting spiritualism and art. You can either put up or not. That is the bottom line in martial arts. When you're getting your a$$ kicked, no one, especially you, will care about how well you play the flute or draw bamboo shoots.

Mutant
05-26-2006, 08:17 AM
Nicely said, ray, agree 100%
of course a by-product of extreme training and dedication can be personal development, but that is true of any worthy endeavor, not just martial arts.

You are confusing CMA with Chinese aestheticism.

Great Chinese men were painters, musicians, philosophers AND martial artists. Now, you can have MA influence in your music and painting if that's who you are; after all, you are what you are. But don't blend it all together and remove the significant part of each.

Good CMA has the qualities of good martial arts everywhere: structure; mechanics; leverage; crisp, sharp, heavy power; technique; speed.

Without that, your martial arts are incomplete and lacking. All martial arts are incomplete, but these are the prerequisites.

I'm sorry, you can't back your way into being a nonproficient fighter by toting spiritualism and art. You can either put up or not. That is the bottom line in martial arts. When you're getting your a$$ kicked, no one, especially you, will care about how well you play the flute or draw bamboo shoots.

Ray Pina
05-26-2006, 08:32 AM
Absolutely. And I think it's a good idea to have a "softer" hobby like painting or music if you're training martial arts, just to keep you level headed and human.

Ben Gash
05-26-2006, 09:14 AM
I was always taught that to be a true master you must also develop a non martial skill such as medicine, calligraphy art or music. Adds a bit of Yin to your Yang.

David Jamieson
05-26-2006, 11:29 AM
the inclusion of medicine etc etc is brought in by a few ideals.

one, teh buddhist ideal that balance is what makes complete.
a lover who cannot kill is not whole, a killer who cannot love is not whole.
If you can break a man's arm, you are unbalanced lest you know how to repair the arm.

yin/yang + a little confucious which pervades chinese society right up until now.

But the scholar warrior concept is a template for the complete man or as teh I ching says "the superior man"

wu de is garnered from confucian ideal although buddhist and taoist thought adds a unique spin all their own inasmuch as the regard the value of everyone and everything as opposed to categorizing and labeling and then putting people into a box soul and all to fit in with the rest of the ant colony (can you tell my dim view of confucian thought mostly revolves around the stupid face games it breeds? :p)

so a complete human would understand all the aspect and would avoid the experience of none of it until seeking to cultivate something else later.

question everything, even your teachers and if you see teh buddha on the road, kill him. That's the starting point for the complete man (human). a little cryptic, but if one bothers to look, they bother to understand and by that they start doing and only in doing is real knowledge acquired.

just wanted to blab that out. :D

neilhytholt
05-26-2006, 12:23 PM
IMHO good CMA includes stretching, drilling basic punching and striking, stance work, partner exercises and sparring. Weapons and forms are IMHO ancillary practices that may or may not be included, depends upon your teacher.

Or in other words: stretching, burning muscles, sweating, swearing and laughing.

After going to too many so-called CMA places that don't teach much fighting, IMHO if there is no stretching, burning muscles, sweating, swearing and laughing, then it doesn't have the pre-requisities to be a good CMA place.

If there is no stretching, then be prepared for a lot of pulled muscles and injuries. If there are no burning muscles, then you're not getting stronger. If there is no sweating then you're not working out hard enough. If there is no swearing then you're not getting hit hard enough, and if there is no laughing, then they take themselves way too seriously.

Mutant
05-26-2006, 12:32 PM
and if there is no laughing, then they take themselves way too seriously.
there's bound to be a lot of laughing after doing what constitutes most cma training these days.:D

neilhytholt
05-26-2006, 12:47 PM
there's bound to be a lot of laughing after doing what constitutes most cma training these days.:D

Puking ... puking ... (and not from over-work or a shot in the gut).

You know, the first way I judge a school is if I go to visit and there's a class in session, if the instructor stops teaching (or if he was teaching at all) and comes to talk to me for more than just a, "Hi, sit here if you want to watch." I'll talk for a few minutes, but then just leave.

Because if he's going to leave class to talk to any bozo that comes in, then it's just a waste of time to study there.