5 element theory

[boy_analog]

Shanxi and Hebei xingyi are based on the 5 element, theory, right?

If so, what theory underlies Henan-style xingyi (xingyi liuhe quan) and Dai-family xinyi?

As it happens my own teacher says that his lineage regards 5 element theory as an impractical scholasticism. Instead, he says that his family's style is based on Taoist alchemy.

Any comments?

(Great thread on bagua and i-ching, BTW.)

[This message was edited by boy_analog on 05-11-01 at 09:39 PM.]

[bean curd]

both work within unision.

i don't understand where your sifu is coming from with the remark you have stated, i would need some clarification/expantion on what is being said.

to keep in short, one could look at the workings of the five elements as wei dan, while those of the doaist nature are from nei dan.
yes very crude anology, but i did say i was going to keep it short.

both work but for different reasons, when they are used from the external to the internal and vica versa.

[doug maverick]

from my small understanding the henan styles is based on the 10 animals theory also it has some taoist influence

[boy_analog]

Many, or perhaps even most Chinese styles have some sort of theory underlies the style. It is theory that makes a style more than just a collection of techniques.

Given the nature of the internal styles, I think it's safe to say that they have a great d eal of theory about strategies, power development, and so forth.

Now, perhaps I'm misconstruing classical Hebei or Shanxi, but my understanding is that 5 element theory is fundamental to both of these xingyi branches. I imagine that this theory is not really used in relation to combat strategies (i.e. always counter wood with metal, etc.), but it remains basic to the methods of power generation in these schools.

Perhaps some Shanxi or Hebei stylists could set me straight on this point.

Anyhoo, if this is so, then what's the story with the xingyi styles that eschew the five elemental fists?

[Mr. Nemo]

I don't know any xingyi, but boy_analog is right about how many internal styles use 5 element theory. We use it in Yin style bagua as kind of a guide for power issuing.

However, as I understand it, there is actually some tactical application of 5 element theory (outside of power issuing) and it has to do with chin na. I'm not quite sure how this works, though...

[PlasticSquirrel]

couldn't tell you that much about the henan xin-yi liu he quan, but i'll try my best.

first, i should explain that dai family xin-yi quan does use the five elemental fists. dai long-bang was the creater of the singular manifestation of the five jings. henan xin-yi liu he quan is the only style of xin-yi/xing-yi that doesn't have singular representations of the jings.

what he did was took the five different basic actions, jings, in xin-yi liu he and made representations of them that were as accurate as he could make them to their core meanings. the five elements are well and intact in henan xin-yi liu he, but there are no singular representations of them. instead, the jings are practiced in the animals' movements.

what your master probably means is that his five elements are not expressed or practiced with a single movement, but internally are the same. this is just a guess, though. his description is a little hazy.

xin-yi and xing-yi have two main theories (from what i know). these are the five elements (wu xing) and the six harmonies (liu he). different branches may put emphasis on different theories or contain some different ones, but fundamentally they are mostly the same.

of course, if i am mistaken about anything above, someone please correct me.

[bean curd]

the theory of the ng ying is as you say a fudimental concept to xing yi, and as plastic squirrel has stated in some xing yi although they don't do ng ying the are within the animals, albeit the ten or twelve depending on which xing yi you study.

to the practicality of using the ng ying (five elements) for fighting, there is seperation here between how one uses them for health and also how they are used for fighting.

the format for both are slightly different, and it is interesting to note that in both north and south styles the fighting concepts of the ng ying follow the same principles, be them either buddist or taoist.

to this end also there is a famous xing yi player who learnt only the concepts of the xing yi ng ying, and got into many a fight and did very well.

although his sifu wanted him to continue his study with the 12 animals, the student didn't wish to, as he saw no purpose. his sifu then sent him to his older brother and from this meeting the younger student realised his studies where inadequate, so to this end, there is much in both.