New book on Chung Moo Quan/Ooom Yung Doe

[Royal Dragon]

Hello!!
There is a really good real life book about life inside the Martial arts cult of Chung moo Quan/Oom Yung Doe.

Excellent stories about how messed up it was for the inner cult members, and the Iron Fist controll John C kim had over his followers.

This is something that is a must read for any martial artist!!

PS, Gene any chance you would be willing to carry this book on martial arts mart?

Just type "Herding the Moo" into the search engine.

www.trafford.com

[Royal Dragon]

Bump.............................................. .................................................. ............................

[Donkwoon]

I was in that for about 3 years. I'm going to try to find the book as it should prove interesting.

This whole concept about CMQ/CMD being a cult; has that happened with other styles? or just them?

[Royal Dragon]

Go to www.trafford.com

Just type "Herding the Moo" into the search engine.

[neilhytholt]

Yeah sorry for not responding. Basically I didn't want to say yet another negative thing on the forum.

But anybody who couldn't tell within 5 minutes that OYD was a cult has got to be pitifully ignorant.

Spending over $20 for a book about a cult seems IMHO to be a complete waste of $$$. I mean, I'd rather spend $11 for Sifu Starr's Yiliquan book except I'm not going to buy that one either.

Who the heck cares about some martial arts cult or somebody's experience with their teacher? It's not like one person's life is somehow more significant than anothers.

[Royal Dragon]

Then don't buy it.

I would be willing to bet those in the Chicago community, who delt with these dolts for 20 years or so before they all went to jail would enjoy a solid first hand account of what went on inside that group though.

It's a fascinateing tale, and to be honest, I am waiting for there to be a movie.

[BlueTravesty]

Yeah sorry for not responding. Basically I didn't want to say yet another negative thing on the forum.

But anybody who couldn't tell within 5 minutes that OYD was a cult has got to be pitifully ignorant.

Spending over $20 for a book about a cult seems IMHO to be a complete waste of $$$. I mean, I'd rather spend $11 for Sifu Starr's Yiliquan book except I'm not going to buy that one either.

Who the heck cares about some martial arts cult or somebody's experience with their teacher? It's not like one person's life is somehow more significant than anothers.

Who the heck cares about the Manson Family? Who the heck cares about the Pelopennisian War? People buy books about random subjects all the time. It's really not that strange. I might just check the book out, despite (or perhaps because) of my lack of knowledge about the subject. I'm just naturally curious like that.

[Judge Pen]

I'm reading the book now. It's fascinating.

[KC Elbows]

But anybody who couldn't tell within 5 minutes that OYD was a cult has got to be pitifully ignorant.



Or at a messed up point in their lives, more often than ignorant. Or a bit of both.

It's also worthy of note that the height of the scam was before the internet being a common means for information gathering. Not to mention that back then, eastern martial arts literature of any decent quality in english was not carried in most bookstores.

I wouldn't agree with it being outright stupidity; willful ignorance is more accurate, imo. It's good to know what it takes for extreme nutcases to gain influence over fairly large groups of people nowadays.

[neilhytholt]

I went there in 1999. They claimed to teach all these martial arts, then they had about 10 guys 'seniors' who not only couldn't move well but did the hard sell on me, trying to set me up with a long-term contract.

They had a picture of some guy they claimed was jumping from a 30-story building. All it showed, though, was a guy and a rooftop. Right! That's a hoot and a holler. So I figured that they were brain-dead dolts.

Plus, I don't do contracts, so I said no. Anyways, come to find out a few years later that they were a cult. Go figure! Well they had all the signs of being a cult. Who else would believe about some guy jumping from a 30 story building?

Anyways I shouldn't be on here anymore. Takes too much time away from the kids.

[Royal Dragon]

Basically they used to ease the whole jump thing in slowly. Back in the day, they said it was a building to building jump. Later when you were much more indoctrinated, they would say it was 5 to 8 stories, to the ground.

[David Jamieson]

do they reveal the secrets of the bean bag toss and sack race training?

[Royal Dragon]

Possibly, but you have to buy the book to findout! ;)

[David Jamieson]

pass. I've seen that stuff already and know what time it is with that org.

[KC Elbows]

pass. I've seen that stuff already and know what time it is with that org.

I can understand, but I will say that Joe's view on the experience is not one you would have gotten to see before. He is able to come at it from a perspective that is a bit different than what, say, myself or RD came from, and he's privvy to some of the funniest missteps by the guys that run the schools and he and his friends.

The book, and his stories in general, are also entertaining from a different perspective than just outing the truth. He does a good job making light of the whole situation, not just the people he doesn't like, and it makes for fascinating reading.

[Royal Dragon]

WOW, I just finished reading the book Herding the Moo!! It was a
fascinating story about the inner workings of the cult and the con,
and the maniacal control John C Kim had over his followers.

I have to say, it chronicled the entire Moo career process from start
to finish in a very detailed, and concise way. This is a book I am
recommending for everyone, not just people involved. You have GOT to read this!

It’s cheap too! You can find the book on www.trafford.com/06-0269

[Mas Judt]

Just ordered it. I find these guys really entertaining...

I found whoists response kind of odd "It's not like one person's life is somehow more significant than anothers."

I don't think that is the point at all, rather it is someone telling a cautionary, true story that actually happened to them. Of course it is more interesting that the life of the toll-booth guy who lives with his mom and whacks off to comic books. Some lives are interesting - sometimes for good reasons, bad reasons, tragic reasons, whatever.

Does this make them significant? Sure. What's the big deal?

[Fu-Pow]

Its good that its out there, at least it will help bring awareness to the problem.

[chud]

Looks like an interesting book.

[Royal Dragon]

It is an interesting book. Personally, I think everyone in the Chicago martial arts scene should read it. we had to put up with them for many years as this was originally "Moo central".

[Donkwoon]

I clicked on that link to buy the book but shipping was $20. I'll look elsewhere.

[Royal Dragon]

I thik it is on Amazon too, if not it soon will be.

[KC Elbows]

A couple things I found interesting about the book:

-every time the up and coming students get a respite from the turmoil from above, those above are still experiencing the turmoil, more than suggesting a trickle down of abuse from the top.

-Some of the experiences are so eerily close to mine, but predating them by several years, and some explain things I saw that made no sense at the time.

-I could see the authors thoughts "detoxing" in the work- not chronologically, as the sections weren't all written in that order, but I could see which sections are still rife with his earlier cult-think, and his placement of those sections made the end fascinating. Hard to explain, but the longer one is out, the less one empowers the grandmaster and begins to view him as pathetic, not powerfully evil.

Aditionally, knowing many of those written about, I really get to know them better, whether that makes them more noble or more pathetic dependent on who we're talking about.

The half way mark really is where I found I couldn't put it down anymore.

[neilhytholt]

But why did you get into it in the first place? Did you never take any other martial arts?

I went to that place when it was still going strong, I guess, in 1999 or something, and they had a lot of students. They claimed to teach all these styles but it was evident after 5 minutes they were fake because a) that picture where they claimed he jumped off of a 30 story building or something (with no backup), b) their high pressure tactics, and c) the fact that they didn't seem to do any of their moves well.

It is just weird that anybody would fall for that kind of a pitch. Or maybe because I had run into cultish martial arts groups before (Steven Hayes), it was more obvious?

[Royal Dragon]

When I signed up, I wanted to learn Kung Fu, and they claimed to teach it. I didn't know anything about martial arts. I didn't last long though, and I have the distinction of being the ONLY one they ever actually kicked out.

[neilhytholt]

Oh, okay. Yeah, I met somebody else who fell for their tactics and spent something like $20k. But he did this even after it was pasted all over the Internet about them.

I guess most people don't do research or shop around. It's hard to believe that place is still in business. Last time I visted one of them they had somebody with 2 years of experience teaching the classes.

I guess my first sifu spoiled me with high standards in martial arts and no contracts and no B.S.

[Royal Dragon]

The martial arts is front, you go in there looking for martial arts, and they slowly brain wash you into being in thier cult. it's a slow process, you don't realise it is happening, untill it is too late.

Read the book, you cn see it happening to the main charecter step, by step.

[neilhytholt]

The martial arts is front, you go in there looking for martial arts, and they slowly brain wash you into being in thier cult. it's a slow process, you don't realise it is happening, untill it is too late.

Read the book, you cn see it happening to the main charecter step, by step.

Nobody gets brain washed into a cult. You have to decide for yourself if the group is for you or not.

There's nothing wrong by nature with so-called 'cults'. All groups, religious, governmental, schools, etc., are basically 'cults', meaning they have a doctrine, they have members, they have a methodology, leaders, etc.

Is it better to be living in teepees or huts? Or is it better having computers and cars?

The current thinking in the U.S. is libs vs. cons. A false dichotomy, but most people have been so-called 'brainwashed' into believing it.

There is no such thing as brainwashing. The problem is most people don't think about what's going on. Most people are sheep. Most people just follow the leader, the T.V., etc.

So I don't have any sympathy for people who supposedly 'fell' for it. If they didn't get out of it what they wanted to, and they didn't walk, then they were just bad shoppers is all.

I mean, geesh, I've 'belonged' to a couple of so-called martial arts 'cult' groups. Ninjitsu and Ninjutsu, Bujinkan and Steven Hayes. The training was fine, but once they trotted out their brand of religious worship, I walked, as I should have.

[KC Elbows]

There may not be such a thing as brainwashing, but there certainly is such a thing as cognitive dissonance, which is heavily at play in such groups.

As for cultishness, none of the groups you mention compare with the chung moo system back in the day in regards to their cultishness. The book sums up a lot of grueling workouts, a lot of actual fights are mentioned, beatings are also covered. When the neighboring schools are point sparring factories, the former street fighter cult members comes off as tough, even if they really doesn't have skill.

Additionally, you've again mentioned that you had past experience and the internet. When I was in, I had no experience and there was no internet. Back then, people who left often got visits at their houses and threats. This is not about what style they were doing, but what they were willing to do.

As for your cult schpiel, cults certainly tend to be more often called as much if they have serious negative behavior attached to them. The book defines that, and how it works is not similar to the "lib/con" dynamic in most cases. People believe such things as libs all being one way because it is lazy thinking, people follow cults LONG TERM because it takes them time to accept that their efforts have all been fruitless. That you feel such people are beneath you is your business, but it is good that some have a deeper understanding of what makes groups that extreme.

There is one scene in the book where the leader seems to come dangerously close to suggesting something Jim Jones like. This is completely different than a simple con. You should be happy that former dupes who were moral enough to greatly limit that man's power chose to do so instead of allowing him to continue as he was. The school you saw in '99 was a shadow of the old school, '99 was well past the prime of these schools and the cult leader was still in prison and the school's excesses were well hidden by that point.

As for the flying pic, when I was in it was some time before they labelled it as flying, and by then, you were already invested in the cult thinking.

Simple con:
Stealing a man's money

Cult:
1) Steal his money
2) tell him to give you his health insurance money, if he gets sick you'll be sure to cure him.
3) Watch him dying of cancer and then unnecessarily tell him that he's being selfish for asking for your help.

Both are criminal, the second is pathological.

The book covers how those there were being dupes, your judgement is less informed on that front than the author's, the book is not about ignoring the foibles of those dupes, but in defining how they wake up, and what they wake up to, both far more useful to the reader than simple judgement.

[KC Elbows]

I mean, geesh, I've 'belonged' to a couple of so-called martial arts 'cult' groups. Ninjitsu and Ninjutsu, Bujinkan and Steven Hayes. The training was fine, but once they trotted out their brand of religious worship, I walked, as I should have.

Since you put quotes around cult, you don't believe those groups were cults.

Reasons this group at the time of the book is nothing like those you describe:

1) Those groups don't choose your wife
2) Those groups don't keep you from taking vacations
3) Those groups don't require you to drop your friends
4) Those groups don't make you take public defenders so that the grandmaster can use money from the schools you run to hire lawyers while he tells you your defense is all taken care of, as happened to the ones who went down with Kim
5) Those schools don't have their grandmaster fleeing from an apparent accidental drowning and having his underlings ommiting this information from the police when they arrive
6) Those schools don't have people using the drowned man's license years later for unknown purposes.

The author was prime pickings, his whole family was dead by the time he was a very young man, he had no one to teach him these things that you find it foolish for people not to know.

I'm sure you can see cause for empathy for his situation and interest in seeing such a person make good and speak the truth so that others don't get duped. You were luckier than him. You will never know if, in his shoes, you would have done any differently, because you will never be in that position.

[neilhytholt]

Since you put quotes around cult, you don't believe those groups were cults.

Reasons this group at the time of the book is nothing like those you describe(and how ninjitsu qualifies as a second group to ninjutsu escapes me):

1) Those groups don't choose your wife
2) Those groups don't keep you from taking vacations
3) Those groups don't require you to drop your friends
4) Those groups don't make you take public defenders so that the grandmaster can use money from the schools you run to hire lawyers while he tells you your defense is all taken care of, as happened to the ones who went down with Kim
5) Those schools don't have their grandmaster fleeing from an apparent accidental drowning and having his superiors ommiting this information from the police when they arrive
6) Those schools don't have people using the drowned man's license years later for unknown purposes.

I'm not saying people aren't duped, I'm saying you have less experience with this topic than you think, and the book is about what you don't know, not what you do.

The author was prime pickings, his whole family was dead by the time he was a very young man, he had no one to teach him these things that you expect him to be seen as a fool for not knowing.

Do you really see no cause for empathy for such a person?

Or interest in seeing such a person make good and speak the truth so that others don't get duped?

(Edit ... actually I don't understand how people get like that.)

As for the Ninjitsu / Ninjutsu, that's kindof a joke. We used to call it Ninjitsu but at some point Bujinkan I think called it Ninjutsu to point out they were different from the Hayes folks, I think. I have no idea.

Basically it seems like most people are sheep. They don't think about what they are doing. They don't use their brains.

So if a sheep is following Bush vs. Democrats vs. anything else, what's the difference?

If somebody's holding a gun to their brains, then that's a difference, I guess.

Anyways, whatever. Have I ever been duped in my life? Yes. Have I ever been part of a cult-like martial arts group? Yes.

I was brought up under fundamentalist Christianity, but it was obvious by age 12 that they were full of crap. I mean, where's the proof? There is no proof.

But it seems like what went on with this group was far and away the act of people not using their brains and walking away from a situation, which is what I don't understand.

I mean, did the guy walk on water or something? Seriously, I mean, would you do all that stuff for a stage magician like Chriss Angel? Because from what I've been told this guy did nothing but martial arts and people did all this stuff.

I just don't get it. It makes no sense at all.

But yeah, Ninjitsu / Ninjutsu wasn't as bad as what you're saying. I mean, there was pressure to give more $$$ for more training so the teacher could go back to Japan for more training, and they didn't always test their stuff against experienced martial artists, and at some point they started to force their version of religion, which is when I walked, but they didn't do the stuff you're saying.

But how would anybody buy the stuff they're saying? I mean, they're just a martial arts group. It's just too weird. I've come across a lot of other CMD stuff around and it's just like, "?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????"

Jim Jones is the same thing. ???? What the heck? Maybe you have to actually be there in that group to understand what they went through, because the text descriptions sure don't describe it.

[IronKim]

hey who talkes about oom yung doe don't know ****....you don't know jack about martial arts you ****ing pedophiles

[neilhytholt]

hey who talkes about oom yung doe don't know ****....you don't know jack about martial arts you ****ing pedophiles

The best thing, though, was when I visited the OYD school a couple of years ago. They had this guy there showing basic chi-na type maneuvers, and he wasn't showing it right. What he was showing wasn't working.

So there was one junior student trying to correct another junior student, trying to work it out, and I'm just going. ??? WTF

So I don't mention it when he walks out. Instead, I go, "That looked pretty good. How long have you been studying?"

He goes, "Only 2 years. I'm the senior instructor here, though." All proud.

(Hehehehehehehe, reverse psychology).

So he walks out, tries to sell me, and I tell him, "I'm just here to see what you do. Will you show me some bagua?"

So he goes, "No, we won't show you any bagua." I'm like, "But then how do I know your bagua is any good?"

So he goes, "Iron kim this, iron kim that, iron kim ..." So I go, "Well, okay, if you're not going to show me anything, then I'm leaving now."

So he goes, "Have you ever seen a gua?" I'm trying to figure out, what the heck is a gua? He goes, "Here, let me hit you."

I'm like, "Okay ... weird ... but okay."

So he does something that looks like some really bad bagua and nails me right somewhere you shoudn't hit (I'm not even going to say because it's so dangerous). Not something you do on demos.

I almost broke his neck right there. WHAT AN IDIOT ...

Anyways, so I walked out, never to walk back. But students with 2 years instruction shouldn't be teaching.

[IronKim]

**** you you ****ing pansy he probably kicked your fat ass

[KC Elbows]

Joe explains the process quite easily. You have to understand, this belief doesn't occur from the presence of the leader doing amazing things, but the absence of it. I never once saw the grandmaster in seven years there.

The book does a great job in showing how everybody is kept so busy and frazzled that there is almost no time to worry about anything else.

Additionally, it's not the sheep complex on its own, the groups you're discussing aren't so severe as this, it takes a whole other mindset to tolerate it and not book outright. One of the guys running a region for CMQ cut himself a lot, another drank most of the time. I was at a disastrous point in my life, Joe was basically orphaned, for many a lot of circumstances that made having a built in "support network"(if a totally predatory one) seem natural.

Additionally, at the point I was in, there were a good number of guys with real athletic talent, and they were always put up front. Back then, a lot of the instructors were guys from physical labor backgrounds, the ones you saw in '99 would have been mostly former white collar folk, this has an impact on the feel of the school as well. In the time the book covers, a guy like you who came in to test them would have been triple teamed and beaten out of the school if possible, by guys who routinely behaved that way. The book covers exactly that conduct in a least two sections.

[neilhytholt]

Joe explains the process quite easily. You have to understand, this belief doesn't occur from the presence of the leader doing amazing things, but the absence of it. I never once saw the grandmaster in seven years there.

The book does a great job in showing how everybody is kept so busy and frazzled that there is almost no time to worry about anything else.

Additionally, it's not the sheep complex on its own, the groups you're discussing aren't so severe as this, it takes a whole other mindset to tolerate it and not book outright. One of the guys running a region for CMQ cut himself a lot, another drank most of the time. I was at a disastrous point in my life, Joe was basically orphaned, for many a lot of circumstances that made having a built in "support network"(if a totally predatory one) seem natural.

Additionally, at the point I was in, there were a good number of guys with real athletic talent, and they were always put up front. Back then, a lot of the instructors were guys from physical labor backgrounds, the ones you saw in '99 would have been mostly former white collar folk, this has an impact on the feel of the school as well. In the time the book covers, a guy like you who came in to test them would have been triple teamed and beaten out of the school if possible, by guys who routinely behaved that way. The book covers exactly that conduct in a least two sections.

You know, I really have no idea. Before I got married I tried to date a lot of women, and if you treated them well, they'd always run off to date some jerks. Then they'd run back claiming they were mistreated, and the first one actually I let back, but after that, that was it ... no more.

There's some messed up stuff out there psychology wise, I guess. I mean, I had a lot of run-ins with Army and Marine recruiters and they had this thing, like, "Are you man enough for us." ??? Are you man enough to take orders from some idiot and go out and get killed???

But evidently that sort of psychology gets a lot of people. I don't understand it, but it seems to be pretty popular. It's almost like people enjoy being abused.

I didn't go in to test them in 1999. I went there just to check out what they were doing. It was a couple of years ago when I went in there and the kid (must have been early 20s was teaching). I just wanted to know what their bagua looked like, if there was anything at all to their system. (I had gone through all the Internet stuff at that point).

You talk about visiting schools and everybody thinks you're going to test the school. Well I have tests for schools.

First test is if the instructor drops everything to talk to me. If they talk to me for more than a "Hi, you can sit here to watch the class," then I walk out the door. Because if they come to talk to any idiot and don't teach class, it's a waste of money.

You'd be surprised how many schools fail that test. OYD actually passed that test. But their techniques were flimsy at best.

I couldn't believe when the kid nailed me, though. Evidently they taught him something (very bad), but they did teach him something. Not the chin-na, though, he couldn't do that well at all.

[Judge Pen]

Additionally, at the point I was in, there were a good number of guys with real athletic talent, and they were always put up front. Back then, a lot of the instructors were guys from physical labor backgrounds, the ones you saw in '99 would have been mostly former white collar folk, this has an impact on the feel of the school as well. In the time the book covers, a guy like you who came in to test them would have been triple teamed and beaten out of the school if possible, by guys who routinely behaved that way. The book covers exactly that conduct in a least two sections.

What's wrong with white collar?

[neilhytholt]

What's wrong with white collar?

Nothing wrong with white collar, just usually they aren't as likely to start stuff and act rough, supposedly.

Although most all of my family is blue collar (construction, farming, etc.) and they didn't run around getting into fights and starting stuff either, so I don't know what the big deal is.

[KC Elbows]

What's wrong with white collar?

Nothing at all, and I didn't intend to make it sound like there was. It's merely a matter of, if you accept that hitting a bag all day makes you tougher, or lifting weights makes you tougher, that we're talking guys lugging around concrete, hands rock-like from driving a hammer, etc, BEFORE they even begin training.

Honestly, I've met guys in construction who have better iron hands than anyone I've met since, and zero training. Mind you, they also have tendonitis beyond belief, but that's later.

It makes a difference in the short term.

The culture is a bit different as well; while I've seen psychos at my later white collar job, they didn't have hammers. I worked at a shop where one guy was so bad, we all would grab pipe clamps, staple guns, whatever was at hand when he would have his temper tantrums, and he'd still come close to closing the distance.

Unload a flatbed full of 4x8 mdf by hand, and you get tough. Later you get injured, and if you let that stop you, then you get fired. Makes people a little more ornery, but in CMQ, the "routine behavior" I was referring to was based around the school's expectations, not their background, the background was a reference to what they were capable of physically pulling off.

[neilhytholt]

Nothing at all, and I didn't intend to make it sound like there was. It's merely a matter of, if you accept that hitting a bag all day makes you tougher, or lifting weights makes you tougher, that we're talking guys lugging around concrete, hands rock-like from driving a hammer, etc, BEFORE they even begin training.

Honestly, I've met guys in construction who have better iron hands than anyone I've met since, and zero training. Mind you, they also have tendonitis beyond belief, but that's later.

It makes a difference in the short term.

The culture is a bit different as well; while I've seen psychos at my later white collar job, they didn't have hammers. I worked at a shop where one guy was so bad, we all would grab pipe clamps, staple guns, whatever was at hand when he would have his temper tantrums, and he'd still come close to closing the distance.

Unload a flatbed full of 4x8 mdf by hand, and you get tough. Later you get injured, and if you let that stop you, then you get fired. Makes people a little more ornery, but in CMQ, the "routine behavior" I was referring to was based around the school's expectations, not their background, the background was a reference to what they were capable of physically pulling off.

It seems kindof interesting that these days there are many fewer men going to college and graduating than women. I run into all these young guys doing construction these days, just like most of my ancestors did.

On one hand, it's kindof nostalgic, like back to the old days. On the other hand, it's worrisome because there's all these college educated women around who don't seem to find these lower income construction type guys appealing.

It seems like an enterprising white collar type under 30s young guy with a BMW could really clean up in the ass department these days.

Anyways, sorry you all got messed up by CMD/OYD. I guess I don't really get it.

[Donkwoon]

This is an interesting discussion and from it, I'm able to glean that the CMQ/CMD experience differed some what depending on location. At least for me any ways.

(It's nice outside and so I'm going to be very brief)

When I showed up at the CMQ school I had had some experience with martial arts (mostly Karate). It never occurred to me that a martial arts school could be a cult though. I just liked the way the top instructor ran the school. Their was discipline and intensity. We would learn forms and then much of the time learn to apply the moves. I was very impressed with how well the head instructor could apply the moves and I couldn't get enough of the teachings. (He was an x instructor from the old Fred Vilari system and had basically developed his own way of teaching)

If things stayed like they were at first I might have remained longer.

I don't know how relevant this is but when they changed from CMQ to CMD things started to get really spooky....almost overnight. The head guy moved up to become some sort of regional instructor and was no longer there all the time. The new guys that came in to instruct were products of that system and you could plainly tell the affect that it had on them. Basically, they were atomatrons. They were all total zealots and some were bullies.
The nature of how the classes were run changed; No longer was there such a high degree of effort into understanding the application of the forms.

During CMQ we were allowed to free spar (light body contact, non to the head) and were encouraged to experiment with and apply the applications. When it changed to CMD the self defense aspect of the class was decreased considerably. We would focus mostly on brutal workouts (I must admit some of the best of my life) but only in the developmental sense. It was as though they wanted us to under go the rigors of martial arts with out teaching us the ability to apply it.

Of course after each workout, one of us would be called into the office to be told that we were not working hard enough to fork over all the $ that they wanted.

I could only take so much of this and so one day I showed up and told the head instructor at the time that I had had it and was leaving for good.

[KC Elbows]

This is an interesting discussion and from it, I'm able to glean that the CMQ/CMD experience differed some what depending on location. At least for me any ways.

(It's nice outside and so I'm going to be very brief)

When I showed up at the CMQ school I had had some experience with martial arts (mostly Karate). It never occurred to me that a martial arts school could be a cult though. I just liked the way the top instructor ran the school. Their was discipline and intensity. We would learn forms and then much of the time learn to apply the moves. I was very impressed with how well the head instructor could apply the moves and I couldn't get enough of the teachings. (He was an x instructor from the old Fred Vilari system and had basically developed his own way of teaching)

If things stayed like they were at first I might have remained longer.

I don't know how relevant this is but when they changed from CMQ to CMD things started to get really spooky....almost overnight. The head guy moved up to become some sort of regional instructor and was no longer there all the time. The new guys that came in to instruct were products of that system and you could plainly tell the affect that it had on them. Basically, they were atomatrons. They were all total zealots and some were bullies.
The nature of how the classes were run changed; No longer was there such a high degree of effort into understanding the application of the forms.

During CMQ we were allowed to free spar (light body contact, non to the head) and were encouraged to experiment with and apply the applications. When it changed to CMD the self defense aspect of the class was decreased considerably. We would focus mostly on brutal workouts (I must admit some of the best of my life) but only in the developmental sense. It was as though they wanted us to under go the rigors of martial arts with out teaching us the ability to apply it.

Of course after each workout, one of us would be called into the office to be told that we were not working hard enough to fork over all the $ that they wanted.

I could only take so much of this and so one day I showed up and told the head instructor at the time that I had had it and was leaving for good.


It sounds like you were in around the same time as the author.

[Donkwoon]

It sounds like you were in around the same time as the author.

If memory serves me correct, I'd say around 88-91 approx.

[KC Elbows]

If memory serves me correct, I'd say around 88-91 approx.

Then I was wrong, you were in about the same time as me. It was the doe/quan point that threw me off: in reality, the difference in titles was not uniform: the schools I attended never changed their name to chung moo doe, there was a school closer to the city proper that did.

Was Tom McGee the Regional you were talking about?

EDIT-- wait, I didn't notice where you live. They did all change to the chung moo doe name in New England, didn't they? One of the reasons the New England schools, and later the Florida schools, were often not as culty was distance from the Grandmaster- the guys running them had more latitude to behave normally because, as long as they sent their money in, they weren't bothered as much, unless the grandmaster became worried that they were getting too big in the organization. After the court case, TD and EZ made an attempt to reform the schools while Kim was in prison, tried standardizing the curriculum and requiring instructors to have CPR experience and stuff like that. The Grandmaster, from prison, had others undermine this plan with the so-called "international level training", an amusing name, considering that no one on the "international team" ever seemed to have anything to do with any other nations. TD and EZ were quickly smeared every way possible, though EZ would eventually remove most of his schools from the Kim organization.

[Royal Dragon]

I also know that on Florida, they were useing the OYD name in the early 90's. I remember being at the Roselle school and seeing a video of Jerry Barfeilld, and the flags carried on the beach was OYD.

[Royal Dragon]

Bump.....................................

[KC Elbows]

Just an fyi, the second edition of this book is now available on Borders.com and Amazon.com. I think shipping is cheaper through them for the end buyer.

A bunch of us gave Joe our advice on what worked in the book, what didn't, and which of our favorite stories he ommited. The new edition really shows it.

What's funny is that the first stories I ever heard Joe relate are towards the end of the book. Back when he told me those stories, he was still really in the cult mind, not part of the schools, but still in that mode of thinking, whereas now he's really just a regular guy who happened to have experienced this weird group years ago. By putting those sections toward the end, it gives the book an interesting tone, because the climax is more experienctial than just based on a chain of increasingly complicated events.

Anyway, I dug that part of it.

[Royal Dragon]

Yes, you can see how he has shifted from seeing Kim as the sole creator of it, to his previous thoughts pondering that Forest was the engineer of the Cult.

I found that interesting, because I have gone down that same road and thought pattern myself when tryng to figure it all out .

[Faruq]

Hello!!
There is a really good real life book about life inside the Martial arts cult of Chung moo Quan/Oom Yung Doe.

Excellent stories about how messed up it was for the inner cult members, and the Iron Fist controll John C kim had over his followers.

This is something that is a must read for any martial artist!!

PS, Gene any chance you would be willing to carry this book on martial arts mart?

Just type "Herding the Moo" into the search engine.

www.trafford.com

I remember Instructor John and Paul when I was 11 out there in Schaumburg. And wouldn't you know it, after the preface, the author walks into the dojo and meets the instructors: John and Paul, with the bad Korean accents, lol. And guess who is mentioned in the preface as being one of the people who helped the authors get out of the cult: Mr Royal Dragon! Kudos, bro!

[mjw]

I went there briefly as a kid with my dad but not very long when they told a story of how when the master came by the water the fish would come he was sure that it was fishy.


I also heard stories of how he went to live in a tigers cave to learn tiger style etc etc it surprises me people actually bought into this stuff....

[Faruq]

I also heard stories of how he went to live in a tigers cave to learn tiger style etc etc it surprises me people actually bought into this stuff....

I was only 11 years old! Come on, man! lol Yeah, he survived living in the cave with the tiger by shooting his KI at it whenever it got any ideas about eating him, lol.....

[David Jamieson]

Frauds and charlatans can go far and make a lot of money and recognition in a land filled with people looking for answers everywhere but where they are IE: within.

People will capitalize on this. True fact.

[Donkwoon]

I just ordered the book. I'm sure it will be an interesting read.

[mjw]

I was only 11 years old! Come on, man! lol Yeah, he survived living in the cave with the tiger by shooting his KI at it whenever it got any ideas about eating him, lol.....

I was probably around that same age also when I went there....

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I remember Instructor John and Paul when I was 11 out there in Schaumburg. And wouldn't you know it, after the preface, the author walks into the dojo and meets the instructors: John and Paul, with the bad Korean accents, lol. And guess who is mentioned in the preface as being one of the people who helped the authors get out of the cult: Mr Royal Dragon! Kudos, bro!

Yeah, I have had a lot of thanks from those guys over the years.

I am surprised any of those schools are even around anymore. There are two that broke from Kim in the Chicago area. Both still teach that stupid art. I hear there are a few oddball school still under Kim's controll in various parts of the country. Sounds like they don't do too well though.

[diego]

is there a .pdf file of this book we can download?. :confused:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

No, it's self published. You have to buy the print copy I think.

[Faruq]

I went there briefly as a kid with my dad but not very long when they told a story of how when the master came by the water the fish would come he was sure that it was fishy.


I also heard stories of how he went to live in a tigers cave to learn tiger style etc etc it surprises me people actually bought into this stuff....


I never should've left Jor Carson's "Carson's Kenpo Karate", lol.