Origins of Taoist Alchemy?

[DarinHamel]

After years of study I have started to think that Taoist alchemy developed indepentantly from Egyptian alchemy. In which case it shouldn't be called alchemy at all.

Are there any smarty pants PhD's out there who can clarify this for me?

[Hephaestus]

Well, technically speaking, it isn't called alchemy. Alchemy is only a rough transliteration that we use for the Chinese term.
Can you point to any studies which claim that Daoist "alchemy" is in any way related to Egyptian "alchemy"?

[mantis108]

I don't have a PhD but as far as I understand Alchemy in Chinese basically divided into 2 schools - external and internal. The External Alchemy school were found by chemists thousands of years ago. We know that the First Emperor of Qin dynasty (248-207 BCE) had retainers that were "Alchemists". He was given "elixir" laced with mercury which is believed to be the the key ingredient in the recipe. BTW, legend has it that Japan "civilization" was found by his alchemist retainer because of his quest for immortality. It is also believe that he had an ocean/lake of mercury in his tomb. Tang dynasty (618 - 906 CE) was the zenith of experimentation of External Alchemy. This populartiy went on to Ming dynasty. But after a few imperial Emperors got poisoned through out the dynasties, the practice finally lost its favorite status. The internal Alchemy school became popular with the founding of the Chuan Zhen Jiao (holistic truth religiosity) by the Daoist Wang Zhong Yang (1130-1137 CE) during the Song Dynasty (960 - 1279 CE). Although Chuan Zhen Jiao credits the founders as Han and Tang dynasty Daoists (ie Han Zhong Li, Lu Dong Bun , etc), it is Wang and his famous disciples known as Chuan Zhen Qi Zi (7 disciples of the holistic truth school) that spreaded the teachings of Internal Alchemy (meditation).

Internal Alchemy borrows the terminologies and "methodology" of its external counter part to explain the process of meditation. Its influences are far reaching to the point that you can find those ideas in the teachings of the so called internal style such as Xing Yi Quan. I am sure there are many who understand what Chinese Internal Alchemy is, so I will stop here.

Hope this somewhat.

Mantis108

[DarinHamel]

Well, technically speaking, it isn't called alchemy. Alchemy is only a rough transliteration that we use for the Chinese term.
Can you point to any studies which claim that Daoist "alchemy" is in any way related to Egyptian "alchemy"?
I haven't seen any studies to connect or to say they evolved seperately. I just assumed since it was being called "alchemy" there was a connection. Is there an older Chinese word for it? Qigong is pretty new I hear. Immortality seekers are called Tao Shih I believe.

[mantis108]

Well, Qin before becoming the very first Empire of China was a western state. It could have contact with the "west". But the silk road did not officially exist until Han dynasty. I believe Tang dynasty was the height of trading with the west. So I don't think Alchemy was all that foreign to Ancient China.

Health, both physical and mental, has always been a subject that the Daoists never neglected unlike the Buddhists counterpart in general. This is because Daoists recognize health is important to enlightenment. I think there is a major misconception that people have today about Daoism. To the Daoists, Human NATURE includes the body, mind and "soul" (spirit) IMHO. It is the rise of philosophical school of Confucianism and increasing influence of Mahayana Buddhism (ie Ch'an) since the Song dynasty that caused the confusion. People equates Daoism with Buddhism although they are both unique and distinct in nature, and from very different cultures.

That being said, human are subjected to the same "sickness" or rather 3 poisons namely greed, wrath and obsession that is the source of mortality. Medicine in China comes in many form - vapour, liquid, powder, paste, and pill. BTW the cinnabar has these properties yet far too unstable and dangerous to use as well. Lead having the opposite property on the other hand is thought to be able to counter balance that. This is why in internal alchemy these 2 ingredients must be presented (not metaphorically only). The Jin Dan (Golden Pill), which is also the product of the process that is also known as the immortal elixir, is believed to be the cure to all mortal diseases. The elixir is a "substance" (a paradox really) that is perfect (sphere shape) and transcend transformation (property of gold). This is the fundamental believe of the internal alchemy.

Internal alchemy as a Daoist methodology is not purely through reasoning. In it's original form, Daoism is more of an observation of nature and human's interaction with it. It's empirical behavioral as much as philosophical.

Just some thoughts to share.

Mantis108

[fiercest tiger]

Hi Mantis 108,

Your teacher said the same thing about the orbit, do you think people can believe they have opened it up rather then just letting it happen naturally. What im saying is do you think you need to visualise the energy moving around from point to point or just let it happen without wanting it to?!

Ive been reading Mantak Chai and Dr Yang info on the fire, wind and water do you know anything about this, especially the wind path?

like to share mate?:)

regards
Garry

[mantis108]

Nowadays, I believe that the guidence of the teacher is important to learn meditation. I used to think that it's possible to go with the process all by yourself. Personally, the Da Xiao Zhou Tian are within the realm of Qigong and they are only the beginning stage of the meditation. It's only one of the many methodologies that is available. A good teacher is important in this matter.

Da Xiao Zhou Tian methodology has a close relationship with the Chinese worldview and the formulation of Qi. There is a temporal component to it that's different from person to person. Different schools have different interpretations but it's base on the idea of Tian Ren He Yi (Heaven and Men united as one) regardless. The teacher is only a guide. Whether the student can open the path or not depends on his understanding and due diligence. Visualization is done when concentration or focus is not obtained in the beginning stage of the practice. It is for novices who have no prior experience whatsoever. Once concentration or focus is experienced, one should not be "visualizing" nor should let active imagination confuses the actual state of being.

I am not familar with the work of Mantak Chai and Dr Yang on this subject. May be you can give a synopsis so that we can discuss further on it. Wind, Fire and water are the 3 terrestrial treasures. There are "invoked" during the Zhou Tian cycles to render the Jin Dan.

Regards

Robert (Mantis108)

PS Hi, Cjurakpt thank you for your reply. I appreciate your sharing of your teacher's views and your thoughts. :)

[nairb]

That's interesting. I always thought Western alchemy originated from the term for Egypt - Kemet - the black land or just kem meaning black since Western alchemy originated with Egypt. Thus adapting to Arabic - Al Kem.


"gam" in Cantonese, but evidently "chim" was how it became pronounced perhaps as it moved west along the silk road; the Persian / Arabic term "al-chim" I believe means "of gold" or "into gold" or some such

[unkokusai]

After years of study I have started to think that Taoist alchemy developed indepentantly from Egyptian alchemy.


Gee, d'ya think? :rolleyes:

[alquimista]

In the words of alchemist Liu I-ming,

"Lead is dense and heavy, hard and strong, lasts long without desintegrating; what is called true lead is not ordinary material lead, but is the formless, immaterial true sense of real knowledge in the human body. This true sense is outwardly dark but inwardly bright, strong and unbending, able to word off external afflictions, able to stop internal aberrations. It is symbolized by lead and so is called true lead ... Because its light illumines myriad existents, it is also called the golden flower. Because it is the pivot of creation, it is also called the North Star. Because it conceals light within darkness, it is also called metal within water."

Enjoy,
Jorge

[DarinHamel]

Just for reference, traditional studies indicate that Chinese alchemy comes from the Zarathrustra tradition which of course has its roots in the Egyptian Hermetic Tradition.

What has made me think they may have evolved seperately is the philosophy of Taoism that is so opposite of the Egyptian philosophy. Pharoahs who were the primary practicioners of alchemy with the priests would be buried with their wives, household slaves, personal guard and if that wasn't enough they would bury the tomb workers alive in the tomb for the added security.

Taoism on the other hand would prefer to not leave a trace on the world.

[mantis108]

Well, It is observed that ancient Egypt was left out during the Axial Age (c 800 to 200 BCE). It is an age when many Shamanistic traditions started to become religions. They are also more concern and compassionate about fellow human beings.

It is a mystery why an acient civilization such as Egypt didn't develop a compassion spiritual movement in sync with the Middle East, Greek, India, and China.

Personally, I have a theory that the Bible might have provided a clue. In the Exodus, Moses, who was said to be Israeli born but adopte as a "prince of Egypt", was said to have lead the Israelites out of slavery and out of Egypt. There is a theory out there that Moses might indeed have been a prince of Egypt who either created or promoted a Sun God worshiping cult that had all the traits of Monotheism which could be the prototypical version of modern day Christianity. Egyptian Pharoahs of course did what they have to do to secure the throne. So the drama of the crossing of the Reed Sea come to exist at least in the Bible; thus, in theory IMHO, a compassion base religion did existed but it was older tradition and power struggle that prohibited it to take root in Egypt.

The impact and the implication of the Exodus, if historically accurate, could be huge. This would land a big support to Africa truely being mother of all civilization.

Just a thought.

Mantis108

[fiercest tiger]

I read sometime back that the north star does not move but everything else spirals around it. The Daoist think as this star as one of the most powerful energies to connect with wonder why?

Garry

[alquimista]

“We begin with the North Star, the fiery home of the Shen. As we move downward through the terrain of the spirits, we descend to deeper strata of the body, the psyche and the nervous system ... just as we look to Polaris to discover the true north, so we look within to the light of the heart to discover our direction in life. The Shen, the shining light of spirit, will always guide us reliably if we take the time to listen. And as the Pole Star direct us to true north, the Shen will always direct us toward Tao, the path of our true nature.”
-Five Spirits- Lorie Eve Dechar

“This true sense is outwardly dark but inwardly bright, strong and unbending, able to ward of external afflictions, able to stop internal aberrations. It is symbolized by the lead and so is called true lead ... Because its light illumines myriad existents, it is also called the golden flower. Because it is the pivot of creation, it is also called the North Star.”
-The Secret of the Golden Flower- translated by Thomas Cleary

Enjoy,
Jorge

[mantis108]

“We begin with the North Star, the fiery home of the Shen. As we move downward through the terrain of the spirits, we descend to deeper strata of the body, the psyche and the nervous system ... just as we look to Polaris to discover the true north, so we look within to the light of the heart to discover our direction in life. The Shen, the shining light of spirit, will always guide us reliably if we take the time to listen. And as the Pole Star direct us to true north, the Shen will always direct us toward Tao, the path of our true nature.”
-Five Spirits- Lorie Eve Dechar

“This true sense is outwardly dark but inwardly bright, strong and unbending, able to ward of external afflictions, able to stop internal aberrations. It is symbolized by the lead and so is called true lead ... Because its light illumines myriad existents, it is also called the golden flower. Because it is the pivot of creation, it is also called the North Star.”
-The Secret of the Golden Flower- translated by Thomas Cleary

Enjoy,
Jorge

Nice quote and all ... would you care to elaborate or share your insights on the matter? Thank you. :)

Regards

Mantis108

[alquimista]

well ... i dont know from where to start mantis 108 ... it´s difficult for me to express my self in english ... for the taoists everything in the universe is made of the same essence, the same energy so ... what we can see in the nature and stars we can also see it in the humans ... thats why they always use the nature to explain the human behaviors ... when taoists talk about North Star they talk about our instinct that guide us during life ... connecting with the North Star means connecting with our instinct and our true nature ...

the taoists believe that when we born we receive from the "heavens" a "destiny" ... this "destiny" is not something that we must do in this life but is "the way" we should live this life, our nature, our North Star that show us the path we must walk.

when we born we are in perfect harmony with this "destiny" ... thats why a baby is so pure ... but when we grow up we get influences from the material world and we loose this connection with our instinct and with our "North Star" ... to live in health and to grow as individuals we must find again "the way", we must reconnect with "destiny", we must live following our own nature and insticts that we had born with ... we must follow the North Star that is inside of us ...

this is the main point of taoist meditation, qigong and taiji ... when you live by your own nature your are in harmony with the "heavens" because the "heavens" gave you that nature so ... if you are in harmony the "heavens" you are in harmony with everything and that is what some call "illumination". "illumination" in nothing more then living by the "heavens will", by you own nature.

taoists believe when you live following the North Star you live by the same padrons then wind, rain, plants, animals, stars, whatever ... so you dont have to racionalize your living ... everything flows in perfect harmony because you are part of that harmony... everything happens the way it should ...

i hope you can understand what i said and that this make sense to you ... i can go in deep explanations and a lot of more detailed theory about any specific question you have about this ...

Enjoy,
Jorge

[milojai]

Hi;
New to site & love ti from what Ive seen.
If any or you chi gong--qigong--alchemy players what a bit of odd!
I found it & would like an honest & insightfull bit of thought.
Here is the url-- http://www.ioi.ie/~creature/Akashic.htm
This is prt 2 url -- http://hem.bredband.net/arenamontanus/Mage/akashics.html

Beleave it or not I found these hanging out in the JEET Kune Do section!:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi;
New to site & love ti from what Ive seen.
If any or you chi gong--qigong--alchemy players what a bit of odd!
I found it & would like an honest & insightfull bit of thought.
Here is the url-- http://www.ioi.ie/~creature/Akashic.htm
This is prt 2 url -- http://hem.bredband.net/arenamontanus/Mage/akashics.html

Beleave it or not I found these hanging out in the JEET Kune Do section!:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Hi milojai,

LOL!! The first link did not lead anywhere, the second is interesting, but if you search a bit more carefully you will find it is information about the game, Mage: The Ascension, by White Wolf

The first line of the page states, "The Akashic Brotherhood Tradition book for Mage: The Ascension is now available. A lot has gone into the book, but we couldn't fit everything. Here's some supplementary material on our martial mage friends. It comes from the author of the supplement and has the Mage line developer's stamp of approval."

Mage may be found at this link:

http://www.white-wolf.com/mage.html

This link is a page where the link you gave is hosted:

http://hem.bredband.net/arenamontanus/mage.html

[milojai]

Thank you for that info:
I knew of the game--I was wounder if there might be some code
or clue & they realy were Acashic!That would have made it unique!
Im sure you do chi of some sort --Id be happy to tell you of the
Fong Ha---Paul Dong--Choi---Ping seeYu method for the info!
Dojosa;
Milojai

[mantis108]

well ... i dont know from where to start mantis 108 ... it´s difficult for me to express my self in english ... for the taoists everything in the universe is made of the same essence, the same energy so ... what we can see in the nature and stars we can also see it in the humans ... thats why they always use the nature to explain the human behaviors ... when taoists talk about North Star they talk about our instinct that guide us during life ... connecting with the North Star means connecting with our instinct and our true nature ...

the taoists believe that when we born we receive from the "heavens" a "destiny" ... this "destiny" is not something that we must do in this life but is "the way" we should live this life, our nature, our North Star that show us the path we must walk.

when we born we are in perfect harmony with this "destiny" ... thats why a baby is so pure ... but when we grow up we get influences from the material world and we loose this connection with our instinct and with our "North Star" ... to live in health and to grow as individuals we must find again "the way", we must reconnect with "destiny", we must live following our own nature and insticts that we had born with ... we must follow the North Star that is inside of us ...

this is the main point of taoist meditation, qigong and taiji ... when you live by your own nature your are in harmony with the "heavens" because the "heavens" gave you that nature so ... if you are in harmony the "heavens" you are in harmony with everything and that is what some call "illumination". "illumination" in nothing more then living by the "heavens will", by you own nature.

taoists believe when you live following the North Star you live by the same padrons then wind, rain, plants, animals, stars, whatever ... so you dont have to racionalize your living ... everything flows in perfect harmony because you are part of that harmony... everything happens the way it should ...

i hope you can understand what i said and that this make sense to you ... i can go in deep explanations and a lot of more detailed theory about any specific question you have about this ...

Enjoy,
Jorge

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing that. :)

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Christopher M]

Western alchemy has Hellenic rather than Kemetic (Egyptian) foundations. While it developed in Alexandria, Alexandria was, at the time, very Greek. The association of Alchemy and Hermetism with Egypt was a popular one in the classical period when the Hermetic writings were dated as contemporary to Moses and hence Hermetism understood as a parallel Egyptian tradition to the Judeo-Christian. This thesis has long since been debunked though, and the Hermetic writings are now dated to the early centuries of the common era, and are thematically Greek and Jewish.

[DarinHamel]

Western alchemy has Hellenic rather than Kemetic (Egyptian) foundations. While it developed in Alexandria, Alexandria was, at the time, very Greek. The association of Alchemy and Hermetism with Egypt was a popular one in the classical period when the Hermetic writings were dated as contemporary to Moses and hence Hermetism understood as a parallel Egyptian tradition to the Judeo-Christian. This thesis has long since been debunked though, and the Hermetic writings are now dated to the early centuries of the common era, and are thematically Greek and Jewish.
Thats new. I know all the references we have to Alchemy being from Egypt are Greek and nothing from the Egyptians themselves but I didn't know the academics are saying it IS Greek. Wiki doessn't say that, does it? Where did you get that info?

I assumed the Egyptians just did what the Catholic church does nowadays and hides the alchemistic symbolism in the structures of the buildings that way you need a certain amount of insight already to see it and use it. I wonder if the academics took that into account like the temple at Luxor. Huge storehouse of alchemy symbolism in its structure.

[Christopher M]

I didn't know the academics are saying it IS Greek.

Yeah, since Isaac Casaubon's analysis of the Corpus Hermeticum in the 17th century.

[GeneChing]

Daoists talked about the external and internal dan (waidan & neidan) mostly as longevity formulas. External would be pills and such. Internal were qigong regimens. These are fundamentally elixirs of life. It reminds me of Western Alchemy and the Philosopher's Stone, which is also defined as a life elixir, as well as something that turns metals into gold. Which is why I'm posting this here... ;)


Chinese Scientists Find A Way To Transform Copper Into “Gold” (https://truththeory.com/2018/12/23/breaking-chinese-scientists-find-a-way-to-transform-copper-into-gold/)
Posted on 2018/12/23

https://truththeory.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/62561162_s.jpg

By Luke Miller,
Legend has it that alchemists of times gone by were able to turn lead into gold and create elixirs that gave them eternal life. Some say this was just legend, others say the methods were protected by highly initiated adepts of the sacred art. Either way, this feat has now come close to coming to fruition, only using copper as the base metal instead of lead.

Sputnik News Reports: A group of Chinese scientists from the Dalian Institute of Chemical Physics has published research in the journal Science Advances, which describes how they managed to turn regular copper into a material “almost identical” to gold and silver. The metal, which the scientists obtained as a result of result of their experiment was capable of serving as a catalyst for a reaction producing alcohol from coal — something only precious metals such as gold are capable of doing

Researchers bombarded a piece of copper with a stream of hot and electrically charged argon gas. The procedure charges its atoms, making their electrons more dense and more stable, making the resultant material closer to gold in terms of resistance to erosion, oxidisation and high temperatures.

The research paper points out that the new material based on cheap copper can replace expensive gold and silver in the production of electronic devices, which require significant amounts of these materials.

With this in mind, the gold will be no good for producing counterfeit gold, due to its density remaining the same as copper. This means the material will be far lighter than standard gold and not the best choice for fake coins and bars.

I’m Luke Miller the author of this article. I like to blend psychology and spirituality to help you create more balance in your life.