The negatives of training with the inexperienced...

[travelsbyknight]

Please post your experiences and opinions on this subject as well. ANd don't worry this is only going to be under this subtopic.

Onward.

So I've been around the kung fu bend for a while now. I hate training with newbs. I know all that brothers brothers brothers crap about helping the young lions because you were once in their position. NOT TRUE. I was never a clumsy fuk like this new generation of kung fuers.

Training kung fu with gear(gloves, chest, protector, helmet) might've been the cause of this. Anyway. Both of us have all of the above gear on. All I'm supposed to do is throw 2-4 jabs and hit him. I'm not supposed to have to block at all. He's supposed to execute SPECIFIC technques. What follows is this:

1. I punch. It hits him square in the chest protector.

2. He doesn't move, dodge, deflect or any other kung fu/fighting movement at all. He instead returns a punch square to my head. (Massive headache!) This happens EVERY time we interact. This is the worst part. AT the end when the teacher asks him what he learned he says, "I feel like I've improved a lot."

He didn't execute one go**** move! AT the end of that class I felt dumber, not just because of the blows I wasn't supposed to recieve, but because he felt smarter!

Situation 2:
The newb is supposed to throw two kicks. I'm supposed to judge the distance, avoid his first kick by backing up then moving forward. This was to show us that being really close negates MOST KICKS. Too bad this idiot's knee doesn't fall under MOST KICKS. Keep in mind that we're not supposed to use our hands at all. It's just a distance judging drill. That's all.
Newb: First kick.

Me: I back up and come forward.

Newb: KNows I'm too close to fully extend his cannon kick...but lifts his knee fast enough and hard enough to hit me. This guy was all nervous the whole class too because of his inexperience with kung fu.

What I've learned about myself: I don't mind training the newbs but I hate training WITH the newbs.

[David Jamieson]

It's a pain when newbs hit you. lol

I mean, that's what I'm reading.

anywhoooo....

You should work on being in a defensible position at all times including what are compliancy drills such as you mention.

typically, if you are not a noob, you should be able to cover up and protect yourself even when in a compliant setting when one person is not following the line of thought.

[BM2]

Well I went to a no-gi class on Sat. after not attending for 3 months due to an injury that will always be there. I thought I would just go light and tell the new guys just don't crank my neck.
The new guys in class are strikers wanting to add bjj for mma events here.
Anyway I liked working with the one guy. He was getting down on himself when I told him that I couldn't pass this one girl's guard when I started. I think she danced and had strong legs. Didn't tell my wife for about 6 weeks that my partner was a 24 year old girl about 5'6" and 125lb:o She never submitted me though. Swept me:rolleyes:
Anyway back to the new guy. As difficult as it is to think about when you started, chances are you sucked too and someone else thought the same about you.

[David Jamieson]

in the beginning, we all suck in a very large way.

[travelsbyknight]

I sucked in the beginning as well but I was a very careful person who sucked.

I get very emotional when my braincells get wasted on newb strikes. Haha. I'd rather inhale second hand smoke.

I understand what you're saying, David about always being in a defensive position. If we were equally moving around it would have been different.

Oh yeah, did I forget to mention that one of those said knees hit me in the balls? I only have two of those and I'm not sure if they're functioning anymore. But you guys are right. Just to prove me wrong though can I knee you both in the nutsacks and punch you in the head endlessly for a half hour period?

[Pork Chop]

I hate sparring with TFNGs; especially in sport fighting, when a 2nd week student pops off with such gems as "I wanted you to respect my power".

Yeah, I respected your power once the blood started flowing from my nose, but how are you doing as far as respecting my power- now that you're running for the bathroom to stop getting hit?

I have a bit of a problem with temper; but it's mostly because I refuse to just accept an injury while some noob does his best to exert his dominance over me. I mean; OF COURSE my easy going demeanor and my non-bodybuilder-looking physique mean that I can't fight, mean that some athletic-looking guy off the street is entitled to go for the KO. :rolleyes:

Rule of the gym: if you're new to my gym & go out of your way to give me a bloody nose, I'm going to go out of my way to give you a concussion.

I'm always real respectful towards guys who've been at whatever gym we're at longer than I have. Actually, I'm respectful to everyone at first, and will forgive almost anyone 2 or 3 good shots. But when a FNG starts teeing off on me, he better expect that what comes around, goes around.

[David Jamieson]

ego farms are the sh1tt1est of the sh1tty places to train.

on the other hand, hippy love fests are for burnouts.

it's hard to find the happy medium in martial arts, it really is.

[Pork Chop]

Not sure if you mean "ego farm" as a dig on ring sports, but it's built into the structure of ring sport training that noobs who come in with tons of ego are going to get it beat out of them.

My rant's more of a complaint against those gyms that enforce too much of a double standard: ie "take it easy on the new guy while he's allowed to do everything he can to beat the snot out of you".

A noob's gotta learn that "going easy" and "going hard" are both 2-way streets.

That being said, Suntzu from this forum is probably the most patient guy I've ever seen as far as letting FNGs unload their arsenal, also the best at keeping himself from getting injured during the ordeal.

With the exception of 1 pro i knew who liked to play dirty on occasion, the rule's pretty solid that the longer the fighter's been training, the cooler he is to work with.

[Mr Punch]

WTF's a TFNG? :)

1) I taught a noob how to break my nose once. He was a really nice kid, 16 or so, and was training really hard... he was one of those kids who worked really hard at everything and eventually wanted to go into the paras I think... should find out if he did. Anyway, I was the assistant teacher at the aiki school and I always liked to put some realism into it, so I was teaching him to always move in with a strike before you try anything fancy.

The move is tenchi nage (the heaven and earth throw) which is a good practical no-nonsense sweeping deflection and palm strike to the centreline to follow up by pushing the head back and stepping in behind for a throw. Well, of course most aiki teachers don't teach it as a strike first, just go straight for the head control, which will probably result in the opponent slipping out of it, or guarding it.

So I taught him to go for the strike as he swung me onto it. Of course while we were drilling I was very careful to show him that the guy who 'takes' the palm heel should be guarding. Then in free practice he pulled a good one off and the momentum of him swinging me round into the palm got my lazy guard out of the picture and BAM! A crunch, seeing stars, that sick feeling and the slight weakness in the knees... etc. He apologised A LOT to his 'sensei' and I just laughed and told him it was my fault entirely and that should be lesson to him about always keeping his guard up. The problem wan't the incompetance of the noob, but that he picked it up too quickly!

2) One time I was the 'attacker' in some noob's grading for WC. It was chi sao and he had nothing for five minutes. I opened up a few times. He didn't notice. I opened up and indicated he should be hitting me. I opened up and said 'Now! Hit me!'. He wasn't getting it. I opened up more, BAM, he punches me full-on in the nose (that was another time it broke)! I slapped the stupid ****er all round the room. Sure enough he got his grade cos that school was a belt factory. The sifu would have to refund him some of his fee if he failed. I left soon after.

[bung bo]

LOL, Mat. I have been teaching noobs a lot lately. There has been a large influx in class in the past 3 weeks. I always tell them to hit me. Most of these guys and girls punch about 6" away from my head. I tell them that training like that is going to get them nowhere and to be realistic. A new guy I brought in recently hit me in the mouth. He apoplogized profusely and looked like he thought I was going to kill him. I did get him in the belly with a punch that almost made him fall over. I didn't snap it hard, but I followed through and I'm sure it made his belly feel a bit"woozy". LOL.

One thing that really irritates me is when I tell them to watch me and then turn around not even one second later to find them looking up at the ceiling or something else.

If I get hit by a noob it means I have have a severe weakness in my defense. I mean, I know you slip up sometimes, but what kind of fighter would I be if I could only do partner-work well with a coordinated person but get knocked around by some kid who is just throwing out his arms instinctively.

Plus....I feel it is my responsibilty as a senior student to take on some of the teaching load even when I don't want to.

[Pork Chop]

TFNG = the f'ing new guy

FNG = f'ing new guy

[Shaolinlueb]

i find myself the instrictor more likely to get hurt training with a newb or them more likely to hurt an advanced person because they lack control. the advanced shouldnt hurt the noob unless they lose control or dont have it.

[omarthefish]

I'm pretty impressed that some guy was able to actually break your nose.

Not sure how that works. Something to do with what I would consider "dead" training. Nothing to do with Matt Thornton. Just my own teachers wording translated from the Chinese. Not interactive. Learning by wrote. ...I guess it's kind of the same but the differences are not a subject for this topic.

Most of these stories are along those lines though. The injuries come from doing something by wrote and then the new guy breaks the script.

See my first lesson for new folks involves doing pretty much what most people are complaining about. I encourage the new guys to do whatever whacked out **** they can come up with and I won't hit them back. In most cases, I won't even really block excepty for my face. As long as we've got 10 oz. gloves on, sometimes I like to drop my guard and try to get them to really punch me in the face too. Depends on the kind of power I'm getting. Most people when starting out I am perfectly willing to take a face shot or two just to get them to get it throgh their thick skull that they need to be a LOT more powerfull to be effective fighters.

Most people are either afraid of hurting someone or over impressed with their un-trained "boxing" haymakers. So sometimes I'll just clench my teeth, tuck my chin in and lean into one because the chance to shout some encouragement and establish that this is training and it's fun and it's real and how much they need to raise the bar for certain people is worth it.

How else are you going to train yourself to get used to getting hit and how to enjoy that side of things except with the new people who are not yet capable of injuring you?

[David Jamieson]

all solo and compliance training is considered "dead".

this doesn't mean that "dead" training is methodically ineffective.

It's just a term.

shadow boxing is dead training, bag work is dead training, mitts and pads is semi alive and free form with an opponent is alive in whatever degree of intensity.

just wanted to point that out before "dead" training got a fully negative wrap.

THat's probably not the best term for it actually. :p

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Not sure if you mean "ego farm" as a dig on ring sports

i dont think he meant that at all, but im not him.

in my limited experience ring sport players are far less likely to farm egos than traditional guys. sport guys know exactly where they stand and if they were ashamed of it they wouldn't still be there. traditional guys not always.

[Ray Pina]

1) If you're experienced and he's a "newb" you should be able to land your shot while guarding yourself. You should be able to do that all the time, newb or not. I know in a fight anything can happen, but in training, when you know it's his right hand coming .... or either hand .... and you don't have to worry about kicks, take downs, etc. Don't look at it as something he did wrong, look at it as something you need to improve.

2) Foot or knee doesn't matter. You have to deal with rising or shooting power at your lower gate. Either use the hand or elbow to wedge or your kick to jam.

I'm getting a big sense of, "He's not doing what he's supposed to be doing."

News flash: in fighting the other guy is purposely going to fool you. This is training, you have it narrowed down to a specific limb doing the attack. Deal with it. Take the hits now and work it out. This is training. If it was so easy, if you could stop everything already then there's no need to train.

[omarthefish]

all solo and compliance training is considered "dead".

this doesn't mean that "dead" training is methodically ineffective.

It's just a term.

shadow boxing is dead training, bag work is dead training, mitts and pads is semi alive and free form with an opponent is alive in whatever degree of intensity.

just wanted to point that out before "dead" training got a fully negative wrap.

THat's probably not the best term for it actually. :p

And that's what I meant when I said that I was not referring to that piece of pop jargon. In the way we use the term (in Chinese and without the influence of the internet of the Straight Blast gym) solo training is not necessarily dead and non-compliance is not necessarily alive. Sorry for the confusion about the terms. I'm not sure how else to describe the quality of training we look for. There's a lot of overlap with the common use of the term but it's not exactly the same.

[SevenStar]

So I've been around the kung fu bend for a while now. I hate training with newbs. I know all that brothers brothers brothers crap about helping the young lions because you were once in their position. NOT TRUE. I was never a clumsy fuk like this new generation of kung fuers.

too general. There are some cats I coach that my and my buddy say "dayum, we were never THAT bad..." about, but not all of them are that way. Some of them are quite talented. Regardless, I can pretty much guaratnee that someone DID say that about you in at least some aspect. nobody catches on to EVERYTHING quickly. I pick up on anything empty hand like a dog picks up fleas, but I had trouble with broadsword.



Training kung fu with gear(gloves, chest, protector, helmet) might've been the cause of this.

why would you think that?


Anyway. Both of us have all of the above gear on. All I'm supposed to do is throw 2-4 jabs and hit him. I'm not supposed to have to block at all. He's supposed to execute SPECIFIC technques. What follows is this:

1. I punch. It hits him square in the chest protector.

2. He doesn't move, dodge, deflect or any other kung fu/fighting movement at all. He instead returns a punch square to my head. (Massive headache!) This happens EVERY time we interact. This is the worst part. AT the end when the teacher asks him what he learned he says, "I feel like I've improved a lot."

He didn't execute one go**** move! AT the end of that class I felt dumber, not just because of the blows I wasn't supposed to recieve, but because he felt smarter!

patience, dude. you know how several ma freeze in real fights and get tunnel vision under the adrenaline dump? newbs will do the same thing in sparring and drilling.


What I've learned about myself: I don't mind training the newbs but I hate training WITH the newbs.

It gets better. I actually like sparring with them when they first start sparring, as they haven't been conditioned to throw picture perfect techniques from your system yet. They are more unorthodox, giving you something different to deal with.

[PangQuan]

ALWAYS be on the ready for a suprise.

walking down the street, buying groceries, eating at a resturaunt...etc.

and especially when training.

if someone slips a technique at you that you are not expecting. thats your fault. even if your suppose to be doing a certain drill. expect an elbow to the neck. a foot to the groin and so on.

as ray said, your opponent will be trying to set you up with things you wont expect.

we have all heard the saying.

expect the unexpected.

at all times. never let your guard down. always be on the defense and ready to explode into offense. that guy IS in your closet. he IS behind taht door. Always.

you just have to be able to be comfortable and relaxed while being prepared and concious of threat. the more you keep it up, the sooner it will become second nature, the sooner it becomes second nature, the sooner it will act for you.

[SevenStar]

I hate sparring with TFNGs; especially in sport fighting, when a 2nd week student pops off with such gems as "I wanted you to respect my power".

Yeah, I respected your power once the blood started flowing from my nose, but how are you doing as far as respecting my power- now that you're running for the bathroom to stop getting hit?

I have a bit of a problem with temper; but it's mostly because I refuse to just accept an injury while some noob does his best to exert his dominance over me. I mean; OF COURSE my easy going demeanor and my non-bodybuilder-looking physique mean that I can't fight, mean that some athletic-looking guy off the street is entitled to go for the KO. :rolleyes:

Rule of the gym: if you're new to my gym & go out of your way to give me a bloody nose, I'm going to go out of my way to give you a concussion.

I'm always real respectful towards guys who've been at whatever gym we're at longer than I have. Actually, I'm respectful to everyone at first, and will forgive almost anyone 2 or 3 good shots. But when a FNG starts teeing off on me, he better expect that what comes around, goes around.

yeah, I hate that too. then when I hit them hard, it's "hey, I thought we were sparring with control!"

[PangQuan]

about the only thing i wont brush of is deliberate intent on harming my body.

if you are conciously going out of your way to try and hurt me, ill return the favor.

otherise, its ok.

[neilhytholt]

Have you ever thought that some of these 'noobs' were just messing with you?

Myself, what I used to do was go to places and pretend to be a know-nothing 'noob'. Then I'd do stuff like punching full force and then stopping like 1/2 inch in front of their face, or going, "Why don't you guys do anything like this?" And doing a hurricane kick.

So if I were evil, I guess I'd go to schools, and go, "What's this?" And then kick the guy in the nuts. See what they let me get away with. :)


No, seriously, have you noticed that a lot of young men now are really, really slow and moronic? A lot of them are doing customer service type jobs, and it's like a fog or something. I think it must be something with the ADD drugs they're giving them, either that or pot or something.

[PangQuan]

well point being, if you were to get past my guard and hit me hard. i know your not a "noob". at which point get ready to fight for being decietfull.

[SevenStar]

well point being, if you were to get past my guard and hit me hard. i know your not a "noob". at which point get ready to fight for being decietfull.

a noob can get past your guard. nothing in fighting is so pre-determined as "he'll never get in one me."

[David Jamieson]

no my comment about ego farms was definitely not a dig.

but there are some places that are very...well...COBRA KAI!!! in their approach to propogating a martial art. lol

in my experience, it's the mma guys i meet that are most open minded and most willing to be good sports about getting hit or hitting.

[PangQuan]

a noob can get past your guard. nothing in fighting is so pre-determined as "he'll never get in one me."

i think our idea of "noob" differs.

in my mind this is someone who has no previous experience, and likely does not even know how to throw a solid punch.

you know the kind of "noob" i mean.

sure when i started training i could get hits in on people. but just because i had just started training, does not make me a "noob". it just means in new in your school.

some people are actual noobs, and some people have an idea of what they are about, perhaps with no formal training, yet not a noob.

I could fight before i ever stepped foot in a kwoon. now i fight better.

but i get your point.

i set those people that can get in my guard as novice, not noob. i have sparred many people who cannot get in my guard, as likely you have.

those guys were noobs.

well thats how i see it anyhow. but i never have used the term "noob" in MA before. lol. thats nerd lingo. :P

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

martial artists are just athletic nerds my man. except the ones who aren't athletic.

[neilhytholt]

It seems like there are noob schools. Like a lot of strip mall dojo chain schools are noob schools where people with no training, no idea of training, goes, and pretty much suck all the way through their black belt.

If you get stuck with noobs then maybe don't go to a noob school. Go to someplace where pretty much everybody has already trained and the only people who go are people who are already experienced -- the ones that come from noob schools.

[Pork Chop]

In boxing & kickboxing (thai, sanda, etc) they'll RARELY throw you to the wolves the first day, unless they just want to test your mettle or if they're just jerks.

A lot of times you won't spar for the first 6 months even.

Definitely by the time one of the "noobs" enters the sparring ring, they've at least thrown a few hundred of each punch with correct form.


As far as partner drills go- ie offense-defense drills, outside of kung fu I've only had one guy not understand the purpose and that guy just wanted to transform the partner drill into offense-defense sparring, which was okay. For those partner drills it was always about getting down the form and then working on the timing.


Dave- totally understand what you mean about the "cobra kai" mentality; i still maintain that the worst case of that I've ever seen was a pure-BJJ teacher that was running a class out of my last boxing gym. He was the kind of guy that's gotta remind you about "the Octagon" every 5 minutes and how badazz the gracies are, eventhough he'd never done MMA.

[Chief Fox]

I like sparring the noobs, they keep you sharp because they are unpredictable. I also like to practice more complex techniques on them.

I remember when I was a noob and I was sparring this advanced student. I couldn't get anything in on him and it seemed like he could hit me at will. After the round I said to him "man, I couldn't even touch you". He said, "you're telegraphing your kicks". At the time I had no idea what he was talking about.

Flash forward to a few months ago and I'm sparring a noob. I can see his techniques comming a mile away. I blocked, defelcted or avoided everything he had. I then decided to attack and made clean contact with multiple strikes. After the round he says to me, "man, I couldn't even touch you" and I said "you're telelgraphing your kicks". I then told him that in time he would get faster, cleaner and more deceptive with his techniques.

I sparred this one noob a few times that was a total spaz. He had no control and was totally wild. I would alsways go a bit slower with noobs which ended up being a mistake with this guy because he popped me pretty good one time in the eye. After that, I told him that he needed to slow down. He says "what, am I too fast for you?". I laugh and say, "um no, but you're going to force me to go fast". Of course he doesn't slow down so I pick it up and hit him with several very convincing techniques.

Sparring noobs is a good thing. They keep you on your toes because they are unpredictable. I don't mind getting hit, It's a part of learning.

[Mr Punch]

... I actually like sparring with them when they first start sparring, as they haven't been conditioned to throw picture perfect techniques from your system yet. They are more unorthodox, giving you something different to deal with.Good post.

[SevenStar]

Also, make sparring newbs a learning experience for yourself. Since I'm not particuluarly worried about their techniques, I focus on mine. Pick one thing that you want to work on and work it on them, while they use what ever they wish.

[Banjos_dad]

we are kind of lucky at our school. the workout is taxing and to progress is difficult. The stupider irritating newbs drop out quickly-- and if they don't it suggests to us that they potentially have a lot to offer. I guess i'm saying that it's difficult enough so that when someone does persist, that on its own merits recognition.
i guess i would be one of the cr@ppier students at my school...lol. But i progress all the same, just not at what i'd consider an ideal rate.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

as seven star said not all of us learn everything fast. **** knows i don't.

a lot of times getting better starts with knowing where your weaknesses are .... where you need the most work .... some people never make it that far.