Pushing Not Effective?

[Water Dragon]

http://www.artofchina.com/Resources/Image3.jpg

???

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[Sam Wiley]

Interesting point. However, pushing is really only effective if you can push your opponent into the path of an oncoming automobile...or else if your technique is good enough to knock him out with the push. I say this because I have pushed people before who just got back up and were more ****ed than before, and I have heard horror stories about other people who actually got the snot beaten out of them for pushing someone across the room.

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

[MonkeySlap Too]

It all depends on how you transmit the force. You can hurt the person with the push, or you can set up the push so 'things break' as the opponent is projected.

Just pushing can be pretty useless. Which is why one should never confuse Tui Sau with fighting. Its a drill that only gives part of the picture.

[JerryLove]

Is pushing the only thing you can do? If so, you martial repitue is insufficient. Pushing withing a frame of other martial knowledge has many uses.

Pushing your opponent in front of a car is one, getting him off you to draw your weapon is another. Pushing one into another to temporarily take two out to deal with a third while they are getting up, pushing them away to run, dealing lightly with someone you outclass, dealing lightly to make sure to the witnesses that he was a persistant and aggressive attacker before you really clock him, getting someone off you to avoid being pushed into troaffic yourself.

And of course, the same skills used in pushing, are also good in general body manipulations during upright grappling. Do the push but grab and hold onto his hair or finger. Get 200lb going in one direction and see if you can stop it with his ear.

[Water Dragon]

Sam, I'd agree 100 % if you changed or else if your technique is good enough to knock him out with the push to being able to knock him down. The reason being this: I posted the pick as it reminded me of a variation on a throw I learned called Diagonal Cutting. My teacher demonstrated on me a few times using both the basic (which involves sweeping the leg) and this. This variation felt a bit more powerful and scary to me. He explained that this variation would be used in a case of multiple attackers when you need to get one person out of the way to deal with others.

Pushing withing a frame of other martial knowledge has many uses. Here in lies my question. How effective is a non disabling technique used in conjunction with a more "vicious" set of skills. Strategically is it wise to include these types of things or should the focus be on the more damaging skills only? What about a BJJ or Shuai Chiao man who wants to close? Can a good, hard shove set them up and throw a wrench in their game plan. If so, does it do so in a way that is actually better than a punch?

Just pushing can be pretty useless. But what if it is used as part of a greater strategy? Does "just pushing" hold any advantages over say a punch depending on what you are setting up?

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[Sam Wiley]

I only wrote that because I don't believe in just pushing someone down. Now, I have used pushes to shove people clear across the room before, and sometimes it worked and sometimes they came at me running like a bull. Doing something like that is better than just pushing them down in my opinion. If you're going to push him at all, push him way the Hell over there, not just down.

In any case, I was always taught never to just push. I was taught that if you used the posture known as Push to strike instead of just move him, and you strike the right place, you could knock him out. I have never done it, and in all honesty when I have pushed someone in a real fight, it has always been to put them on the other side of the room. Otherwise I strike and kick.

Anyway, when dealing with multiple attackers, just pushing someone can be useful, especially if you push him into another person. :) But that's a bit like pushing him into the path of a car.

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

[Mr. Nemo]

"Pushing withing a frame of other martial knowledge has many uses."

I think this is the key one. There are a thousand little pushes in almost any kind of handwork. YOu can push to set up other things, like a strike or throw.

Like, I was just talking to someone about "lady works the shuttle" in which the upper hand starts off as a ward off and then turns into a push - this push can be used to get a blocking arm out of the way, or to unbalance them a little to make the strike easier to deliver.

The problem with just a push is like Sam said - you knock'em over, but they can just get back up again. You've defeated their attack, but they can come back again. Do this enough times, and the odds are in favor of them connecting with something before they get tired of fighting and walk away.

[Water Dragon]

True, but are the little pushes the same as the big one? Same thing with Rollback, there's a lot of yielding in Rollback, but is Rollback the same as yielding?

http://www.chicagotaijiquan.com/Images/NathanSep96/NSmove2.jpg

With the above example, Rollback, or yielding does not work by itself, or does it? Are there times where it is usefull to just Rollback? I'm speaking of sending them out behind you at least a few feet. Or is that something you would never want to do?

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[Esteban]

Hi Water Dragon,

I guess you're asking whether the "push" demonstrated in the first post is an effective technique. It's reasonable to say that just pushing someone back will not stop a determined opponent. OTOH, a punch or kick may not stop him or her either. If you're asking whether knocking someone's wind out of him with a push to the solar plexus is more or less effective than hitting him in the head, then I suppose YMMV depending on the opponent and the circumstance. In general, it may not be good practice to think that any "one" thing will be enough. In boxing, which some do not consider a martial art, btaim, "pushing" is illegal. Boxers try to use it to put the opponent in or out of range after a clinch. In "raised platform" fighting, "pushing" is a legal way to knock the opponent off the stage. But, anyway, fwiw, a "push" is not merely a "push", if we're talking about tjq. "An" is something different. I agree with the others who've said that just shoving someone across the room might only get someone mad. However, when I worked in construction, in my youth, there was one incident where I pushed a fellow worker --bigger than me-- from one end of the trailer to the other end --with a big "thump." Anyway, he was shocked, and he didn't come back. He also thought that he could beat me up, so I had an advantage. Most of all, he lacked "committment." I was ****ed at him because he was trying to bully me. Now, I could have tried to hurt him, but we had to live and work together. If I hurt him, I'd have to watch my back for the rest of the project. And, since he must have felt that if I could push him that I "could" hurt him, everything was cool after that. I think that "pushing" as in "push hands," is a way to practice safely. I mean, anybody can wipe anybody else out, but then it's hard to find practice buddies. BTW, "pushing someone into a steel column or a concrete wall at close range is very effective. If you're downtown, plateglass windows are good, too. Watch out for flying glass, though.

Best,
Esteban

[gazza99]

If you have the opportunity to push, Why not use that same opening to knock him out with a good strike? Or break a rib, or something nice like that?
I can kind of see the use in a multiple attack senario..but really, if you knock him out, or really hurt him I think the guy behind him might think again about coming after you. Plus he has to step around/over his limp carcas to get to you.
Pushing is good in the movies, and for demonstration!!!!

[les paul]

A push or a press are great for defense. Reminds me of the story Robert Smith told in "Chinses Masters of Boxing" about Chen Man Ching having a confrontation with an American who was practicing Karate in Taiwan. The American doubted Chen-man Chings Gung Fu and asked for a demostration. In a very small room the American proceeded to try and hit Chen Man Ching with punches and kicks. From the book you got the impression that there was nothing but broken furniture left in the room due to Chen Man Ching bouncing the American off the walls or into the furniture itself. This story left a huge impression on me. Mostly I practice Xingyiquan and sometimes I find myself sparring against hard external artist like karateka etc. Xingyiquan isn't noted for rolling type push hands like Taijiquan, but it does have a push and a press. A couple of times I've used them in sparring and tournaments. It's the follow up that counts when doing these. I try to strike when my opponent is trying to gain his root again. An example would be launching a good Beng Quan as your opponent bounces of the wall back in your direction. To me this "strategy of attacking the root of the opponent" is the power behind Taijiquan.

In short the Push and the Press are very solid for self-defense

[DrunkenMonkey]

The reason why I think pushing may not always be the right or most effective choice is because you have a very small time frame during a spar or fight for a push to be effective, because you first must manipulate your opponent off balance...

Underaged Drunken Monkey

[Daniel Madar]

It's funny, but rumor has it that the American doing Karate later went on to become a famous teacher of internal arts.

[Daniel Madar]

It's funny, but rumor has it that the American doing Karate later went on to become a famous teacher of internal arts.