weapons: OC spray vs ASP vs knife

[SevenStar]

which do you prefer? They each have their advantages and disadvangtages.

the ASP has a greater reach, but leaves you exposed more if you miss
the knife can do great damage but has a short range
the spray has medium range, but may miss its target. it will still burn him if you are using fox, but I personally don't know alot of people who use fox. I use freeze +p. I'll be getting fox next, though.

[SevenStar]

dayum, nobody uses these?

[Songshan]

I have used OC spray and ASP baton in real life situations. I use to carry a knife but never used it in a fight. My experience with OC spray is its messy, hard to spray a moving target and it gets everywhere. Not to mention on windy days its basically a rolling cloud and everyone feels the effects. As for the ASP baton they are ok but usually end up breaking bones or clunking someone on the head as noone sits still when you need to use them (not to mention it creates the image of "beating" someone). PR-24s or the tonfa looking batons are more useful since you can do take downs and come alongs with them. Knifes are always good to carry but only if they are kept in a snap case and it's secure. I see many fellow officers carry knifes clipped in their pants pockets or some other easily reached place. It's a bad idea especially any weapon you have can be used against you too.

My department has issued all deputies the X26 Taser. Very effective tool and knocks the fight out of the person. Not to mention they are not deadly and have actually saved some people from doing the "suicide by cop". Lots of officers have stopped equipping themselves with OC spray and ASP batons since the introduction of the taser.

[GeneChing]

I prefer batons when I'm trying to beat some one down. I prefer sprays when I'm trying to get away and thwart someone from following me. I prefer knives when I'm trying to cut the cheese. I cut more cheese than I do the others, so I guess I prefer knives. ;)

[neilhytholt]

Yeah, I got some pepper spray at the gun shop, picking the best one they had, the so-called 'police strength' or whatever. It seemed appropriate to go go out and test it, since I shouldn't carry it if I didn't know how to use it.

So I go outside, it's a little windy, and I decide to spray it against some bushes about 8 feet from me, since it's a little windy, so I point it away from myself with the wind coming from behind me. (Didn't want to p*** in the wind so to speak).

The thing fricking doesn't work the first time.

I push it harder and it sputters, and still doesn't work.

Finally I shake it a bit and it gushes forth (edit ... as advertised 15 foot burst) burst of particalized OC spray, concentrated, that hits the bushes and promptly blows back a little bit onto me. Hardly any, mind you, but enough so I go (acckkk). And first reflex is to cover my nose and mouth.

Well, said spray from the can got a little bit on my finger, so I've got some OC spray on my finger and mouth now, as well as a little bit in my nose, and it's burning. Burning more than a little, but still painful. So I go inside to wash it off with soap and water, and it still burns. For 45 minutes it's burning.

Let's just say that I think any weapon that incapacitates YOU as much as the attacker is freaking useless.

So afterwards I talked to some people and cops about it and they say that OC spray is great in just ONE situation they know of, which is to spray inside somebody's car when they roll down the window a bit.

[neilhytholt]

So after the pepper spray incident, I bought a collapsible police baton. I get it out of the package, and am thinking that it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. Except it's kindof clunkier than I thought.

It's kindof heavy. It takes a bit of effort to get it out. I play around with it for about 30 minutes and finally I can grab it get it out, and extend it in one motion.

But the problem then becomes, where to conceal it??? It doesn't fit on a belt holster, because I'm not a cop. I get a shoulder holster, but it clinks around, and is extremely uncomfortable, and unless I'm wearing a jacket, anybody can see it.

I try getting an ankle holster, but then I can't get the fricking thing out from under my pant leg unless I get down on my knees, and even then it's a royal pain, and the thing's clanking all the time. I can't walk fast.

So ... it's sitting here gathering dust along with the OC spray.


And don't even get me started on the knife. For one thing, you have to carry a 3 inch blade or smaller, and it has to be foldable in most states.

Okay, a little knife like that, how useful is it? Really? In the time it takes you to reach into your pocket, pull out the little knife, un-fold it, and then ...

You've got a 3-inch knife in your hand, oh, how useful against 2 attackers or more having one of your hands incapacitated with this tiny little knife in it.

It's totally absurd. You can get a concealed gun carry permit in some states, but you can't carry a knife over 3 inches. How ludicrous is that?

Edit ...

Anyways, if I could choose one weapon to carry that isn't a gun, I think I'd go for double sais, in shoulder holsters (of course I'd have to have them under a jacket).

That way, they don't clunk. They've got greater reach than a knife. You don't have to worry about spray getting everywhere, they work extended to block weapons such as knives, etc., and against the arms if you want to use them to do qinna-type maneuvers against people's limbs. If things get really bad you can always use them to break necks, poke eyes, etc.

But, unfortunately, as a civilian there's no way in heck I could get away with carrying something like that around.

Ironic, isn't it? The criminals can carry guns but I can't carry a couple of sais around.

[Songshan]

LOL....interesting post neilhytholt.

Yeah the criminals have had the upper hand for sometime now. However, when they get caught they pay the ultimate sacrifice.....their freedom is gone. Luckily most departments have allowed their officers to carry high powered rifles. The AR-15s, MP-5s and what not are taking the place of shotguns. By all means I am not a gun nut but some of the people I work with simply scare me with the "hey come look at this after roll call!"...:D.

The best weapons many people have and they fail to use is their senses. Use your eyes and ears. I can't begin to tell you how many people I have come in contact with that were followed for miles before they were robbed or talked to witnesses that thought they heard something being broken but didn't think anything of it...only to find out their neighbor's car had been broken into. If only they were a little more observant and followed up what they heard....

[neilhytholt]

LOL....interesting post neilhytholt.

Yeah the criminals have had the upper hand for sometime now. However, when they get caught they pay the ultimate sacrifice.....their freedom is gone. Luckily most departments have allowed their officers to carry high powered rifles. The AR-15s, MP-5s and what not are taking the place of shotguns. By all means I am not a gun nut but some of the people I work with simply scare me with the "hey come look at this after roll call!"...:D.

The best weapons many people have and they fail to use is their senses. Use your eyes and ears. I can't begin to tell you how many people I have come in contact with that were followed for miles before they were robbed or talked to witnesses that thought they heard something being broken but didn't think anything of it...only to find out their neighbor's car had been broken into. If only they were a little more observant and followed up what they heard....

Yeah, there was a really great show I think it was COPS L.A. or something and they showed just how out-gunned the police were versus the criminals. The criminals had fully automatic weapons and even 60 calibre machine guns. They showed a ton of weapons they had captured and it was unreal.

It makes sense that police in this country should carry MP-5s like they do a lot of places in Europe, especially with the terror threat.

I do not carry a concealed weapon, but I've been thinking of getting a permit, but I have not. The reason being is everybody I know that's been mugged has been mugged completely by surprise and had no time to get a gun out. But it's probably a bad idea not to carry a gun in this day and age.

As for what you're saying about being observant and careful, that's a no-brainer. Most of the people I've known that have gotten in trouble were women and got mugged while they were loitering around chatting with their women buddies. Not that it would have saved them not to be.

Some friends of mine got mugged in San Francisco by 3 people a while back. According to them, 1 pulled a taser and said, "Give me your jackets." (They had expensive leather jackets). They said, "No." So the guy tased the biggest one, which they said did absolutely nothing, upon which time another one of them walked over with a hand-held stun taser type thing and nailed him in the neck. He still wouldn't give them the jacket, so the third one pulled a gun, and they handed over the jackets. (Edit ... actually they would have had time to pull a gun against a taser, I guess. The big guy said the jacket protected him mostly against the taser and the little stun thing didn't do much).

2 other friends got mugged while they were chatting outside after leaving their martial arts class. One guy stood about 15 feet away and pulled a gun, and the other guy took their purses. There was nothing they could do. Trying to pull a gun in a situation like that would just get you shot.

So I don't know the solution to this one. I considered carrying some throwing stars (shuriken) as well but those are illegal too, so ... ??? Not a good thing.

[dwid]

Yeah, there was a really great show I think it was COPS L.A. or something and they showed just how out-gunned the police were versus the criminals. The criminals had fully automatic weapons and even 60 calibre machine guns. They showed a ton of weapons they had captured and it was unreal.

To a large extent, I think shows like this make a visually dramatic point, but don't really mean all that much. Police train tactics and know how to use the weapons they have. Personally, in the hands of an untrained person, I'd rather go up against an M-60 in most cases than a simple pump shotgun.

Okay, maybe that's a bit extreme. But how many people here know how to load a belt-fed weapon, how to clear a jam, or how to refurbish a gun that is basically an antique by today's standards? Any idiot can hit just about anything with a shotgun, but it takes training and a lot of practice to use a very bulky and cumbersome large caliber weapon effectively. Most people buy guns that they think look cool without any thought to functionality and then never really learn how to use them. Hence, in spite of every gangster in L.A. packing a tech 9 or a mac 11, the cops still pretty much always win.

Honestly, where is someone going to practice with an M-60 in the middle of a city without attracting every LEO within several miles?

[Songshan]

To a large extent, I think shows like this make a visually dramatic point, but don't really mean all that much. Police train tactics and know how to use the weapons they have. Personally, in the hands of an untrained person, I'd rather go up against an M-60 in most cases than a simple pump shotgun.

Okay, maybe that's a bit extreme. But how many people here know how to load a belt-fed weapon, how to clear a jam, or how to refurbish a gun that is basically an antique by today's standards? Any idiot can hit just about anything with a shotgun, but it takes training and a lot of practice to use a very bulky and cumbersome large caliber weapon effectively. Most people buy guns that they think look cool without any thought to functionality and then never really learn how to use them. Hence, in spite of every gangster in L.A. packing a tech 9 or a mac 11, the cops still pretty much always win.

Honestly, where is someone going to practice with an M-60 in the middle of a city without attracting every LEO within several miles?

Good point. To take it even further, the average criminal has little knowledge on breaking the gun down for cleaning purposes either. So usually their guns are more prone for jams. At any rate, you just gotta play it safe these days.

[Songshan]

Yeah, there was a really great show I think it was COPS L.A. or something and they showed just how out-gunned the police were versus the criminals. The criminals had fully automatic weapons and even 60 calibre machine guns. They showed a ton of weapons they had captured and it was unreal.

It makes sense that police in this country should carry MP-5s like they do a lot of places in Europe, especially with the terror threat.

I do not carry a concealed weapon, but I've been thinking of getting a permit, but I have not. The reason being is everybody I know that's been mugged has been mugged completely by surprise and had no time to get a gun out. But it's probably a bad idea not to carry a gun in this day and age.

As for what you're saying about being observant and careful, that's a no-brainer. Most of the people I've known that have gotten in trouble were women and got mugged while they were loitering around chatting with their women buddies. Not that it would have saved them not to be.

Some friends of mine got mugged in San Francisco by 3 people a while back. According to them, 1 pulled a taser and said, "Give me your jackets." (They had expensive leather jackets). They said, "No." So the guy tased the biggest one, which they said did absolutely nothing, upon which time another one of them walked over with a hand-held stun taser type thing and nailed him in the neck. He still wouldn't give them the jacket, so the third one pulled a gun, and they handed over the jackets. (Edit ... actually they would have had time to pull a gun against a taser, I guess. The big guy said the jacket protected him mostly against the taser and the little stun thing didn't do much).

2 other friends got mugged while they were chatting outside after leaving their martial arts class. One guy stood about 15 feet away and pulled a gun, and the other guy took their purses. There was nothing they could do. Trying to pull a gun in a situation like that would just get you shot.

So I don't know the solution to this one. I considered carrying some throwing stars (shuriken) as well but those are illegal too, so ... ??? Not a good thing.

Yeah, I have seen some fully functioning automatic rifles. I went through a training seminar some years back. It mostly covered gangs and the black market weapons. There was several instances where gang members joined the military and were able to gain access to some serious weapons. These weapons "disappeared" and ended up for sale in the streets. They were eventually caught. What gave them away in the military was their photos with them throwing up their gang signs. For some reason, gang members have an constant urge to throw their signs up in pictures and videos. Just watch some of todays "rappers" in their music videos. Watch their hands and you will eventually be able to recognize the signs. It's like a whole different language.

As for the rest, yeah if a gun is pulled on you it's over. There is no martial arts that can stop a bullet....and no property worth dieing for either. Some people are just victims of circumstance.

[Kapten Klutz]

Personally, in the hands of an untrained person, I'd rather go up against an M-60 in most cases than a simple pump shotgun.

I would think that would depend on the range of the encounter. From 200 meters out, on flat, open ground I'd rather go against (read run away from) the shotgun. From 5 meters out I'd rather go against (read charge) the M60 and hope he's slow getting it up and working. Actually I'd rather surrender in the latter case, but assuming that's not an option.

[dwid]

Well, on the up side, nobody is going to surprise you with an M-60 - not so easy to hide. So yeah, assuming you were being mugged by a thug from 200 yards out and you didn't notice the tripod and massive gun, you should totally give the guy your wallet.:D

[SevenStar]

I have used OC spray and ASP baton in real life situations. I use to carry a knife but never used it in a fight. My experience with OC spray is its messy, hard to spray a moving target and it gets everywhere. Not to mention on windy days its basically a rolling cloud and everyone feels the effects. As for the ASP baton they are ok but usually end up breaking bones or clunking someone on the head as noone sits still when you need to use them (not to mention it creates the image of "beating" someone). PR-24s or the tonfa looking batons are more useful since you can do take downs and come alongs with them. Knifes are always good to carry but only if they are kept in a snap case and it's secure. I see many fellow officers carry knifes clipped in their pants pockets or some other easily reached place. It's a bad idea especially any weapon you have can be used against you too.

My department has issued all deputies the X26 Taser. Very effective tool and knocks the fight out of the person. Not to mention they are not deadly and have actually saved some people from doing the "suicide by cop". Lots of officers have stopped equipping themselves with OC spray and ASP batons since the introduction of the taser.

yeah, working security, I've had the same experience with OC spray. I've been on the receiving end a few times. haven't used the baton yet - people tend to back off it they see it, which is my prime reason for having it - crowd control.

[SevenStar]

Yeah, I got some pepper spray at the gun shop, picking the best one they had, the so-called 'police strength' or whatever. It seemed appropriate to go go out and test it, since I shouldn't carry it if I didn't know how to use it.

So I go outside, it's a little windy, and I decide to spray it against some bushes about 8 feet from me, since it's a little windy, so I point it away from myself with the wind coming from behind me. (Didn't want to p*** in the wind so to speak).

The thing fricking doesn't work the first time.

I push it harder and it sputters, and still doesn't work.

Finally I shake it a bit and it gushes forth (edit ... as advertised 15 foot burst) burst of particalized OC spray, concentrated, that hits the bushes and promptly blows back a little bit onto me. Hardly any, mind you, but enough so I go (acckkk). And first reflex is to cover my nose and mouth.

Well, said spray from the can got a little bit on my finger, so I've got some OC spray on my finger and mouth now, as well as a little bit in my nose, and it's burning. Burning more than a little, but still painful. So I go inside to wash it off with soap and water, and it still burns. For 45 minutes it's burning.

Let's just say that I think any weapon that incapacitates YOU as much as the attacker is freaking useless.

So afterwards I talked to some people and cops about it and they say that OC spray is great in just ONE situation they know of, which is to spray inside somebody's car when they roll down the window a bit.


LOL!! that was my first experience as well. I tested some spray that I bought for my mom and the same thing happened. you have to avoid spraying it in the wind.... know your environment, after all. A lot of the sprays today have a guard on them, so you shouldn't get it on your finger.

[dwid]

yeah, working security, I've had the same experience with OC spray. I've been on the receiving end a few times. haven't used the baton yet - people tend to back off it they see it, which is my prime reason for having it - crowd control.

Yeah, I've seen it work in that context. I was at a bar one night and a fight broke out - it basically turned into a big pile of guys, some the bartender knew, some (the ones who started the fight), were new to the bar. He basically hosed down everybody, and it ended the fight. I was in another room and had to walk through the aerosol cloud of death to get out, and even what was left hanging in the air ten minutes later induced some kind of spasmodic coughs on my part.

[SevenStar]

So after the pepper spray incident, I bought a collapsible police baton. I get it out of the package, and am thinking that it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. Except it's kindof clunkier than I thought.

It's kindof heavy. It takes a bit of effort to get it out. I play around with it for about 30 minutes and finally I can grab it get it out, and extend it in one motion.

But the problem then becomes, where to conceal it??? It doesn't fit on a belt holster, because I'm not a cop. I get a shoulder holster, but it clinks around, and is extremely uncomfortable, and unless I'm wearing a jacket, anybody can see it.

I try getting an ankle holster, but then I can't get the fricking thing out from under my pant leg unless I get down on my knees, and even then it's a royal pain, and the thing's clanking all the time. I can't walk fast.

So ... it's sitting here gathering dust along with the OC spray.


And don't even get me started on the knife. For one thing, you have to carry a 3 inch blade or smaller, and it has to be foldable in most states.

Okay, a little knife like that, how useful is it? Really? In the time it takes you to reach into your pocket, pull out the little knife, un-fold it, and then ...

You've got a 3-inch knife in your hand, oh, how useful against 2 attackers or more having one of your hands incapacitated with this tiny little knife in it.

It's totally absurd. You can get a concealed gun carry permit in some states, but you can't carry a knife over 3 inches. How ludicrous is that?

Edit ...

Anyways, if I could choose one weapon to carry that isn't a gun, I think I'd go for double sais, in shoulder holsters (of course I'd have to have them under a jacket).

That way, they don't clunk. They've got greater reach than a knife. You don't have to worry about spray getting everywhere, they work extended to block weapons such as knives, etc., and against the arms if you want to use them to do qinna-type maneuvers against people's limbs. If things get really bad you can always use them to break necks, poke eyes, etc.

But, unfortunately, as a civilian there's no way in heck I could get away with carrying something like that around.

Ironic, isn't it? The criminals can carry guns but I can't carry a couple of sais around.


I'm willing to bet your baton wasn't an ASP - they are very light and not clunky at all. Also, maybe we have deep pockets, but myself and two of my coworkers have them in our front pocket.

As for the knife, even with a short blade, you can do damage. Why do you think so many women carry boxcutters? and those have an even shorter range.