Why Traditional Schools Are Losing Out

[neilhytholt]

So there's a lot of traditional schools closing down now or not getting students, whereas some new chain schools are getting a lot of new students.

After talking to several old sifus who are in deep consternation about why these schools are closing down, I'll tell you why.

You blame it on people not wanting to learn to really hit people. You blame it on fitness oriented martial arts. You blame it on their clever marketing and you blame them because some of them have vague ties to China.

As for point a) people not wanting to learn to really hit people, well, you're partially right there. But people still want to learn self defense and spar. But they want something more sport oriented.

You blame it on fitness. Well, YES, HELLO!!! A lot of you old sifus are FAT with big bellies. If somebody is wanting to lose weight, they don't want to go to somebody with a big belly who obviously has no clue how to lose weight.

You blame it on clever marketing. WELL YES!!! HELLO!!! People don't want to go to a run-down old dojo. Don't you think they want a nice, new place to train in?

You blame it on vague connections to China. Well, YES!!! Don't you think a connection to the Shaolin temple looks better than whatever vague lineage you have drummed up?

You blame it on sport wushu. Maybe sport wushu is part of what people want, to compete, look good, etc.

Basically WHY DON'T YOU ADAPT??? Why don't you let the CUSTOMER, THE PEOPLE, decide what they want, instead of sticking to your old ways, which are obviously obsolete?

I've been looking for a place where I can do what I want, practice staff if I want, do MMA oriented sparring if I want, and the only places that are at all flexible are the MMA places.

If you want to stay in business, maybe you should start offering more flexible programs, lose the pounds, and change your tune?

Anyways, this is Neil signing out. I'm not going to be spending any more time on here because my kids want me more than you do. :)

[PangQuan]

even if a traditional master has no official school to speak of, he is not "out of business".

Unless he decides not to, he will always have a student, provided he is truly an excellent martial artist and teacher.

to the traditionalist, passing on your knowledge is the only true objective.

Many people believe that a traditional lineage of martial arts is static.

this is incorrect.

Yes the tradition of the forms will remain in tact. When a man becomes a master, he creates. Simply he uses what he finds through out his many years of study, and combines this into his art.

When this master teaches a student completely. this student recieves as much inovation the master can convey through direct transmition.

unfortunately this is not the case in most all situations. But this is the ideal, and this is what traditional masters hope to accomplish.

keep your style alive, continuing, and constantly strive to make your student better than yourself. IF you can complete this cycle, you can evolve your martial arts.

but this is only an ideal, and rarely is it seen.

every true martial artist knows that adaption is the key to survival. :rolleyes:

[Blacktiger]

Not all traditional schools are losing out, maybe its a trend in the states because there is more competiton in the market place.

[Hieronim]

the true tes tof skill is when one maste rof one style can beat experts of multiple styles or ranges of combat with only one.

[David Jamieson]

your premise is faulty.

[PlumDragon]

Not all traditional schools are losing out, maybe its a trend in the states because there is more competiton in the market place.Its not a trend in the states. He talked to "several" of his teachers and made an inaccurate generalization about the entire country based on how ever many "several" of his past sifus are. Hardly significant.... :rolleyes:

[WinterPalm]

I'll tell you what. Go to a math professor and demand that he teach you English composition because, ultimately, they are both tools of enlightenment ideals and western forms of knowledge. Why can't I read and write essays on James Joyce in my Physics class? Both equal western accomplishments in intellectual fields and should not be seperated. For that matter, why can't I get a massage from the guy who fixes my car? Or a package of bananas from the bartender?

Your whining is stupid...there is no reason why someone should change just because most young people from this generation are spoiled brats with nobody to tell them to behave and no means of enforcing it. I would much prefer my Sifu teach privately than have a big commercial school in which we dance and can't spar because wavers state it is too dangerous. Real, hardcore kung fu is definately not for everybody but it shouldn't be forced to change into what it is. I think the reason there are so few masters is not because the arts have lost out on business, but there has never been great business based on the commitment and dedication involved that is arguably more so than many other endeavours. To be great at anything, you go to who is great, if they do what you want, than you stick with it, or not.

I think the reality is that the attraction to kung fu may be lower but the amount of money charged, at least where I train, is very limited to allow more than just the rich to train, and as such can sometimes be too little to pay the lease. That and how many people want to spar all out without any protective gear on?

I agree that Sifu should be in shape but how many boxing coaches are in such great shape?

[JuanMaldonado]

My Sifu's school has recently had an explosion of new students. My teacher teaches Taiji, Bagua, Xingyi, Shaolin, LimaLama and Kenpo. In the last few months his taiji classes have been super full.

[Hieronim]

your premise is faulty.

and why is that?

[neilhytholt]

It's okay. USSD is taking over a lot of places, just as an example. With blackbelts with like 2-3 years of experience. But of course my premise is faulty. :)

Anyways, I shouldn't be wasting any more time on here because my kids are more important.

[SPJ]

The ole way v.s. the new commercialism.

There are many Wushu schools near Shaolin temple. There are plenty of students.

In contrast, in the village of Chen or Chen Jia Gou.

They still take only few students for the long run depending on merits or the ole way.

One is to approach the general public.

The other is still to preserve the whole deals with a few.

--

:)

[neilhytholt]

The ole way v.s. the new commercialism.

There are many Wushu schools near Shaolin temple. There are plenty of students.

In contrast, in the village of Chen or Chen Jia Gou.

They still take only few students for the long run depending on merits or the ole way.

One is to approach the general public.

The other is still to preserve the whole deals with a few.

--

:)

Yeah, but the old way isn't any better, as you can see from the way they fight. The old way they usually can't fight. Get it?

No train to fight = no can fight. Practice forms and think you're great all day doesn't a fighter make.

[hungganyc]

Fake Traditional schools are loosing out, not real traditional schools. The real traditional "Kung Fu" schools seem to stand out and attract people who want a more complete package in regards to the term martial arts.

If you take a common Non-Traditional Martial Arts school and a TCMA school that both emphasize fighting, sparring, etc. what do you have left or what is left to offer between the two?

There are people who only want to learn fighting and don't want to be bothered with customs & ettiquette typically found in TCMA schools, BUT i think the majority of people want more then just fighting and prefer the depth of a real TCMA school.

Lets face it, most people in the west were attracted to martial arts not only for fighting, but also the codes, customs, ethics, respect, and traditions seen in the movies and magazines. Most westerners are attracted to the discipline viewed in TCMA or traditional martial arts in general.

A TCMA school that offers the whole package will always survive against any new or trendy so called martial arts.

There are people out there who would like you to believe that TCMA is less than their style of martial arts because they know deep down inside that TCMA is very attractive to the majority of people and unchallengable if the TCMA school fights. This is KUNG FU magazine right :-)

[neilhytholt]

Lets face it, most people in the west were attracted to martial arts not only for fighting, but also the codes, customs, ethics, respect, and traditions seen in the movies and magazines. Most westerners are attracted to the discipline viewed in TCMA or traditional martial arts in general.

A TCMA school that offers the whole package will always survive against any new or trendy so called martial arts.

There are people out there who would like you to believe that TCMA is less than their style of martial arts because they know deep down inside that TCMA is very attractive to the majority of people and unchallengable if the TCMA school fights. This is KUNG FU magazine right :-)

I don't think a lot of people care. I've gone to so many places. In fact, one place I went a few months ago had a very nice, rare lineage karate / jujitsu school in front, and a kickboxing / boxing gym in back.

The karate place had a few students. The kickboxing / boxing gym had a ton of students. All over the place there are TKD schools that seem very popular. TKD is a style based upon Shotokan with few traditional applications.

USSD seems to be taking over in a lot of places, edging out older Kempo places (granted Kempo isn't a traditional style), but having 2-3 year trained black belts teaching Kempo instead of 20-30 year trained people seems a big problem.

But, whatever. I myself will not attend any more of those traditional schools or even the non-traditional ones that require a set curriculum because it's just old and boring.

[Shaolinlueb]

i dont think traditional schools lose out at all. but hey thats just me.

[brucereiter]

<<but having 2-3 year trained black belts teaching Kempo instead of 20-30 year trained people seems a big problem.>>

regarding teachers who have been teaching for "20-30" years. 17-18 or 27-28 years ago they too had only been teaching for 2-3 years.

start your own style neil, i think this or mma are the only things that will make you happy. well maybe not mma since you would have to learn their fundamantals and drills etc ... neiltaokoushu would be a great name for it ...

[P. Starr]

Personally, I think it's much easier to learn a "sportified" version of a martial art than the real, traditional art and that may be why some people prefer the watered-down, sportified thing.

Moreover, the "sportified" versions are usually very flowery and colorful whereas the traditional arts...aren't. The people who originally created them weren't interested in scoring points or looking pretty.

I teach traditional martial arts and I'd rather close down my classes than prostitute what I teach just to make a few bucks.

But you know, when I tell people that this is the traditional art and that they're going to be sore for a while and sweat down into their socks and run drills until they think they're going to puke, they're ready to jump in and do it!

I think the majority of people WANT to learn the real thing and when you assure them that that's what you teach [I]and that you teach it in the original way (because there is a difference), you'll see a real increase in membership and strong-spirited students.

Just my two yuan-

[fiercest tiger]

I agree with NEIL 100% most kung fu sifus cannot fight, they can spar there students and look good and show you breakdowns against this type of strike then you put them in a ring and it all goes to pieces.

There should be a traditional class for people that are after forms and learning to be an actor and a fighting class based on MMA to apply your system.

:eek:

Garry

[Buby]

Yeah, but the old way isn't any better, as you can see from the way they fight. The old way they usually can't fight. Get it?

No train to fight = no can fight. Practice forms and think you're great all day doesn't a fighter make.


Yes Sir!!!!! Just look at the Wu style master vs. the Crane master, not one single decent move or combo. Some people say it was for charity and I still say they could have done much better. No disrespect to anyone, but thats the way I feel.

Forms are no goodieaahhh for fighting. The only way to get good at doing hands is by doing hands and the true test is with different people. just my 2 cents.

FT,
What up sifu? Give the kid a holla on msn if you can.

Bubyaaahhhh

[fiercest tiger]

Hey Bubsta,

Im at work right now bro, hopefully tomorrow or when i get home tonight you might be asleep though.

Garry

[SPJ]

Personally, both will exist.

There will be new or trending format for sports fighting.

There will also be ole schoolers.

Whatever the next new sports formats showup, the now prevalent formats will be grouped into the ole schoolers.

Lei Tai being the ole school. KuoShu and San Shou/Da being the prevalent formats.

Lei Tai has no protective gears and signing off not to sue the other for injury.

--

:D

[dainos]

I agree with NEIL 100% most kung fu sifus cannot fight, they can spar there students and look good and show you breakdowns against this type of strike then you put them in a ring and it all goes to pieces.

There should be a traditional class for people that are after forms and learning to be an actor and a fighting class based on MMA to apply your system.

:eek:

Garry
the key word there is MOST. i think that determans the fake and the true.
the shaolin made kung fu for selfdefense many generals did kung fu and won many battles.

[hungganyc]

"Traditional" means you can fight! Many fake sifus and schools are misusing the term "traditional" and giving the term "traditional" a bad name.

In todays society with kung fu books, videos, internet and magazines, there will always be more fake TCMA than real TCMA.

If a school emphasizes fighting as a tradition along with martial behavior, it won't lose out, no matter if it's kung fu, tae kwon do, or Karate.

The more appropriate and common sense question should be "Why Fake Traditional Schools are Losing Out".

I consider myself a TCMA Instructor not only because i teach forms and follow other customs in the chinese martial school; I consider myself traditional because it is the tradition in our style and school to train for fighting.

In our school we train students to fight against any person regardless of style, but we emphasize proper conduct & ettiquette so that students will be responsible with their skills. We are recognized as a TCMA school in our community and happened to be surrounded by karate and MMA, but we attract the most students in our community too.

The MMA school down the street teaches anyone who will pay alot of things which could obviously hurt someone,but they don't teach students to use their skills responsibly. alot of the young MMA students walk around pumped up looking for an opportunity fight and test their skills, but i think they're looking for trouble. I've met some of their students who seem angry and have violent tendencies. Many of the students in this particular school look for street fights and have had issues in high school and with the law because of their undiscipline training. Because this particular MMA school doesn't emphasize traditional behavior or conduct in martial artists, the students are out of control, but i must also mention that other MMA schools in our area behave the same way. Without tradition, it's like giving a irresponsible person or a child a gun. I won't be as shallow like others and assume that ALL MMA schools are undiscipline and violent .

[PangQuan]

every true martial artist knows that adaption is the key to survival. :rolleyes:

see where i said that? read it again.

regardless of what anyone thinks, there are traditional masters out there that can fight. if there is one or one hundred thousand, whats the difference other than how much is there. one means it is. simply.

hell i bet you there is a logger out there that can fight better than many MA people. :rolleyes:

think about it.

no matter what "style" people choose, there will always be people from every venue that can fight with it.

want to know why? ill tell you.

its dependant on the individuals themselves. human nature will ALWAYS prevail in any thing humans do. if someone is a natrual born killer, they are. doesnt matter what "style" they do.

style is a pointless prerequisite. it doesnt matter, as long as you have the know how to make sense of it all and learn to put it to use.

[SPJ]

3 pronged approach;

In the late 80's and early 90', my bro has a Kuo Shu Guan in Pan Chiao, Taipei county, Taiwan.

He nicknamed the school has 3 departments: Yoga-Tai Chi, Kung Fu-Tai Chi and fight club.

1. Yoga-Tai Chi: some basic stances and short forms for breathing exercise and fitness.

2. Kung Fu-Tai Chi; push hands, bag works, Qin Na and throw, etc.

3. fight club: basic punch/kick and throws, fight with gears and rules in the ring.

Guess what. The first department took off. It was so popular that the students had to book or reserve 1year and half ahead of class time.

only a few took # 2 and even fewer stayed long enough to really do it right.

#3 are just not so serious people having fun.

after a while, #1 was all we do.

then we started to seriously ask what we were doing. Just some demo and a lot of fitness classes.

Such is the life.

:D

[BlueTravesty]

Basically WHY DON'T YOU ADAPT??? Why don't you let the CUSTOMER, THE PEOPLE, decide what they want, instead of sticking to your old ways, which are obviously obsolete?


Isn't that why so many MA schools specialize in "Daycare-Ryu" these days? After all, when your client-base is composed of overprotective and/or possibly abusive parents (Why does MY child have to do horse stance? He has a glandular disorder!) and your student base is mostly whiny snot-nosed kids, you will have problems. Think "Timmy quits halfway through class in order to read 'Naruto' in the corner and eat the donuts his mom gave him."



I've been looking for a place where I can do what I want, practice staff if I want, do MMA oriented sparring if I want, and the only places that are at all flexible are the MMA places.

There are actually a couple of ways to accomplish this, though the hardest of these ways (can you guess which one?) would seem to be the surest to succeed.

1.) Buy a staff. Buy a video that teaches staff. Then join an MMA class. Then practice the staff while inside of the MMA class before or after sparring.

2.) Buy a house with a nice, big backyard or other training space. Buy a staff. Buy a video that teaches staff. Hire a sparring partner. Spar the partner "MMA style" and when you're done, practice the staff.

3.) Learn an MA style that includes staff in its curriculum (yes, you may have to spend whole years to learn the boring, non-staff elements as well, but those are both fun and worthwhile as well.) Get a good solid, grounding in that style. Go to an MMA school, learn, spar, and even compete. Get a good grounding in MMA. Open a school, and teach your unique, eclective blend of both. Then "let the CUSTOMER, THE PEOPLE decide what they want." That sort of establishment sounds like a pretty cool idea, as it may be free of the "ego-emissions" that plague many TMA schools ("no way, only the mma schools do that!") and slightly fewer MMA schools ("no way, only the tma schools do that!") Good luck with that.

(BTW/P.S.- despite my mockery, Daycare-Ryu does have one effective technique that the children in particular have mastered. It is called the "Aimeikyu-ill" form. "Rotavirus transmission" is deadliest technique in this form. Strongest man no can defense!)

[ngokfei]

I guess it has to be divided into 3 catagories:

1. Martial Art
2. Combat/Gladiator Training
3. Hobby

1. Martial Arts to me teach the whole package. health, Knowledge culture & self defense. The important thing here is self defense.

2. Combat/Gladiator Training is the MMA, Sport aspect of the Martial Arts. Just like boxing, the majority will disappear as they get up there in age. Some will coach/teach (if they have that skill) but most will just remember the "glory days".

3. The hobby individual is there for the short time. Kiddie-karate, mcdojo, cardiokick, japanese/korean Taichi etc. So it really doesn't matter what they learn. The commerical flash school/gym is for them. So this is where places like USSD, Shaolin Monks, Contemporary Wushu, etc. all promoting themselves as something they are not.

As for fighting skills:

Compare a MMA practitioner vs a MA Student. You obviously know that a MMA person can and wants to fight (very fit, perhaps a couple of scars and those tattoos;) .
The MA person is unassuming (average joe/jane) so their skills (if they trained correctly) will be a surprise for the agressor who doesn't feel they are a threat.

The funny thing here is that the "Traditional Martial Arts" and the Hardcore MMA" people have more in common then not. Usually a small space, worn equipment, etc. Their results are strong. So what's the percentage of students from the MMA schools actually step into the ring? Its probably identical to the number of the Traditional Martial Arts Students who also compete.

[SevenStar]

Personally, I think it's much easier to learn a "sportified" version of a martial art than the real, traditional art and that may be why some people prefer the watered-down, sportified thing.

gimme a break. even among CMA, the pretty, flowery kicks are harder to learn than the simpler, combat effective ones.


Moreover, the "sportified" versions are usually very flowery and colorful whereas the traditional arts...aren't. The people who originally created them weren't interested in scoring points or looking pretty.

the traditional thai styles are WAY more flowery than muay thai. traditional northern kung fu still had high kicking, its a staple of many northern styles, no?


I teach traditional martial arts and I'd rather close down my classes than prostitute what I teach just to make a few bucks.

good on ya. As with anything, it's a matter of perspective. train them for san shou. it's sport, but at the same time will teach them lessons they will never learn simply by training with you.


I think the majority of people WANT to learn the real thing and when you assure them that that's what you teach [I]and that you teach it in the original way (because there is a difference), you'll see a real increase in membership and strong-spirited students.


1. most students DON'T want the real thing. Heck, most students do not train in order to learn how to fight. they train to get in shape, they train to relieve stress, they train because they want to compete, they train because they want to do what they see in movies. Most people will admit that they did not start training to learn to fight.

2. I'm willing to bet that nobody on this planet teaches the ORIGINAL way. the arts and times have changed so much over time that it's ridiculous to think so.

[Ray Pina]

Basically WHY DON'T YOU ADAPT??? Why don't you let the CUSTOMER, THE PEOPLE, decide what they want, instead of sticking to your old ways, which are obviously obsolete?

Because when you let someone who walks in the door with zero martial experience dictate how they should train to someone who has over 20 years of training and fighting experience, and the person listens and changes, you produce students with empty training.

Then they go and open kwoons high on form and talk and you wind up with what we have today: a bunch of gutless, worthless kung fu practioners.

[neilhytholt]

2.) Buy a house with a nice, big backyard or other training space. Buy a staff. Buy a video that teaches staff. Hire a sparring partner. Spar the partner "MMA style" and when you're done, practice the staff.

Yeah, I already have a staff, and I already took staff. When I say work on staff, I mean, I want a partner to practice staff with.

So this is probably the best idea. I asked around and I've found several teachers whose schools have closed down who are teaching out of their houses. Right now, they don't want to work on misc. stuff but I think in about 6-12 months they'll probably be much more open to the idea. Then maybe they'll go for somebody hiring them to be attack dummies. :)

[SevenStar]

I guess it has to be divided into 3 catagories:

1. Martial Art
2. Combat/Gladiator Training
3. Hobby

1. Martial Arts to me teach the whole package. health, Knowledge culture & self defense. The important thing here is self defense.

2. Combat/Gladiator Training is the MMA, Sport aspect of the Martial Arts. Just like boxing, the majority will disappear as they get up there in age. Some will coach/teach (if they have that skill) but most will just remember the "glory days".

3. The hobby individual is there for the short time. Kiddie-karate, mcdojo, cardiokick, japanese/korean Taichi etc. So it really doesn't matter what they learn. The commerical flash school/gym is for them. So this is where places like USSD, Shaolin Monks, Contemporary Wushu, etc. all promoting themselves as something they are not.

not so cut and dry. i know several people who trained TMA for years, then quit once they thought they got too old. Were these people really just hobbyists all along? These same people speak of the times they had while training - remembering the glory days. In addition, some hobbyists will keep their hobby for a lifetime. Said hobbyists are now more dedicated than the guys who wanted real MA and quit when they felt they were too old. The sport guys that disappear only disappear from YOUR sight. why? because they aren't competing anymore. As far as you know, they may still be training every day.

As for fighting skills:


Compare a MMA practitioner vs a MA Student. You obviously know that a MMA person can and wants to fight (very fit, perhaps a couple of scars and those tattoos;) .
The MA person is unassuming (average joe/jane) so their skills (if they trained correctly) will be a surprise for the agressor who doesn't feel they are a threat.

the first lesson of self defense is to avoid a fight if possible. The built, rough looking guy looks more intimidating and will usually not be the first choice of a would be assailant. Hence, they avoid lots of fights just based off of how they look. I have even had a guy tell me that if I wasn't so much bigger than him, he would've tried to fight me. Score one for intimidation.


The funny thing here is that the "Traditional Martial Arts" and the Hardcore MMA" people have more in common then not. Usually a small space, worn equipment, etc. Their results are strong. So what's the percentage of students from the MMA schools actually step into the ring? Its probably identical to the number of the Traditional Martial Arts Students who also compete.

probably not. the difference is that many people get into mma because they WANT to compete. it's a specialized market - a sport. that's like me joining the high school wrestling team and not wanting to wrestle anyone. Granted, not everyone wants to compete, but nothing is 100%.

[neilhytholt]

Because when you let someone who walks in the door with zero martial experience dictate how they should train to someone who has over 20 years of training and fighting experience, and the person listens and changes, you produce students with empty training.

Then they go and open kwoons high on form and talk and you wind up with what we have today: a bunch of gutless, worthless kung fu practioners.

Well the whole school thing IMHO the way it's run now isn't that useful.

If you look around at different types of martial arts it's pretty obvious people didn't start at the beginning in every different martial art they took. It's obvious in China that a lot of instructors trained according to the student and not according to a set curriculum. Just look at all the different types of baguazhang for example. It seems like DHC didn't teach any student the same thing.

Not everybody has the same goals in their training.

[PangQuan]

many people will begin to train because they want to know what it is.

many for fitness.

many because their parents make them.

some to fight.

i began to train first with weapon. to learn to use it. then i began my kung fu training to learn to use my hand as a weapon.

the bonus side i knew is my physical condition would rise, and my health would improve and maintain better.

i looked for 2 years for a school to join, now that i have one and enjoy the curriculum and the master. i will stay here for several years.

i am begining to be able to use my kung fu when i fight. this is most exciting for me.

up till i started really training and feeling the effects i would rely on my experiences with weastern boxing and the brawls i used to get into as a teenager.

granted those experiences are still with me and have helped me out, im beginnnig to see fruit being born from my studies.

[SevenStar]

"Traditional" means you can fight! Many fake sifus and schools are misusing the term "traditional" and giving the term "traditional" a bad name.

No, it doesn't. it means exaclty what it says - traditional. have you seen the vid they were talking about earlier? these guys were supposedly masters - and they sucked. When I originally posted that vid a few years ago, someone in the thread mentioned that you didn't have to be a great fighter to become known as a master. and these were traditional sifu who were fighting.


I consider myself a TCMA Instructor not only because i teach forms and follow other customs in the chinese martial school; I consider myself traditional because it is the tradition in our style and school to train for fighting.

In our school we train students to fight against any person regardless of style

and you're testing this how? that is where competition comes in handy.


but we emphasize proper conduct & ettiquette so that students will be responsible with their skills.

you really don't need to teach that. it teaches itself. The best way to be humbled is to get your ass kicked. When you get into a ring and lose, you learn a lot about yourself. When it happens on a regular basis, you begin to realize that at any given moment you may be put against someone who can beat you. It makes you think twice about haphazardly looking for fights.


The MMA school down the street teaches anyone who will pay alot of things which could obviously hurt someone,but they don't teach students to use their skills responsibly. alot of the young MMA students walk around pumped up looking for an opportunity fight and test their skills, but i think they're looking for trouble.

see above.


I've met some of their students who seem angry and have violent tendencies.

that is very well possible, as the training is aggressive. I've known people training southern mantis who experienced the same thing while they were training, as it was fairly aggressive.


Many of the students in this particular school look for street fights and have had issues in high school and with the law because of their undiscipline training. Because this particular MMA school doesn't emphasize traditional behavior or conduct in martial artists, the students are out of control, but i must also mention that other MMA schools in our area behave the same way. Without tradition, it's like giving a irresponsible person or a child a gun.

high school. you're talking about kids here. I've known several (and currently know) several tma who think that are hot isht because they train. that's just kids being kids in some cases. It could also be an issue of the general mentality of the students that particular school attracts.


I won't be as shallow like others and assume that ALL MMA schools are undiscipline and violent .

nah, they're definitely not all that way.

[Red Wind Fist]

Sorry to say,
But this post is ubsurd. A true traditional school doesnt teach for the money. ever. The progression of the art is most important. "If the teachers would give the customer what they wanted..I wont even comment on that. That is like telling a teacher at your children's school what to teach them when it comes to reading.
The new money hungry MMA schools can do what ever they want, but when I set out almost 9 and a half years ago, I wanted to learn to defend myself and to also learn an art. an ART. you cant buy an art. you have to learn it and then make it perfect. Sharpen the sword and then polish it, so to say. It's not a business in other words. It is an art. Paid truely only by time and dedication. It is a popular, if not mostly western ideal, to be power hungry for money and competiton. Thats mostly what the majority of them want anyway in my view. Trophies and competitions. belts and awards. As far as I am conserned the colored belt/sash system is a joke. A western idea to keep students coming in. I teach a very strict and traditional class and my students start at white and then promoted to black...over years of training of course. I dont teach for money, I teach because I love the martial arts. Putting a price tag on it is degrading. I'm a traditionalist when it comes down to it. But the one thing I can always say is, I will always be around, just like the man who taught me, and the man that taught him, all the way back to japan and china. The art always lives on. MMA will to. But I know which side I stand on.

[David Jamieson]

the one thing you will get in an mma school that you won't get in a typical traditional school is conditioning conditioning conditioning. conditioning to endure, conditioning to get used to being hit all over, conditioning to being pressured into situations where you don't have time to think and must act and must act within the accepted rules of the venue.

If traditional schools were to add this to their regimen, they would lose students, because that work is hard to do.

On the oether hand, technique is thin in mma type places. But it is this way because they spend most of their time conditioning. lol. bit of a catch 22. Don't think they can't hit hard, they can hit hard. Don't think they are sloppy, you won't think that when that "sloppy" punch ktfo's you. Don't think they are weak, they will access the clinch and take you to a place you haven't been. The ground.

what needs to happen in tarditional schools in my opinion is to up the conditioning, up the will training and dump the kwai chang cain crap pronto.
lose the silks, lose the squinting in photos to look more chinese, lose that stuff if you are going to teach people how to fight street or competitively.

If you want to do cultural stuff, that's ok, but really, you don't have much more than what's offered at any cultural center.

If it's a strict family closed door thing, then do as you will. But if you're in the business of training people, then it is your responsibility to train them, not to feed them 50% stories of how great a fighter your teacher was and 30% stories of how kungfu saved you and 0% stories of actuial verifiable sanctioned matches you've been in.

If it's a cultural thing, then so be it. That's wu shu.

If it's for real, make it for real or go home.

/rant

p.s this post neither supports or devalues any of the tarining methods associated with martial arts. In my opinion it's all the same stuff. It's the trappings and hedge trimmings that everyone gets caught up in and loses sight of the real task. For the nut huggers it's the same old "well so and so choked so and so out therefore this is better" and for the chi hippies its "we train for the street and sportification is beneath the meaning of art.

It's martial arts people, approach it as such, leave out any of the nut hugging or mind floating and do it for hwat it is, you'll get waaaaay more out of it regardless what path you take.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Now we're talkin'... cut out the "Art" crap, dispense with all that traditional "well-rounded" stuff.. Just hone those skills into a razor sharp model of violence.

If your interest is in nothing but the fight, STFU, get out of here and train for the next fight.. This is a forum for and about "Kung Fu", not about MMA, TKD, Muay Thai, etc... Find a forum that caters to your interest... Much wisdom has been set forth in here regarding the essential element of Kung Fu being a fighting art, it is.. Even more wisdom has been shared regarding those that raise Kung Fu above pure organized violence..

the first lesson of self defense is to avoid a fight if possible. The built, rough looking guy looks more intimidating and will usually not be the first choice of a would be assailant. Hence, they avoid lots of fights just based off of how they look. I have even had a guy tell me that if I wasn't so much bigger than him, he would've tried to fight me. Score one for intimidation.Conversely, there are places where the "built, rough looking guy" will be singled out as a target.. there are places around here where displaying your "abilities" will invite a challenge.. if you look tough you better be able to back it up.. Personally, i take great pains to disguise any martial skills that might be evident (until they are needed)..

Certainly, i agree that there are McKwoons out there.. but, there are real teachers and real schools.. and it's a heap of crap that MMA guys get their jollies criticizing others that don't fit into their MMA expectations.. there are many sincere students and teachers that train to defend themselves for the unlikely event they are assaulted.. they spar, they are aggressive, And..they keep a tradition alive..

I trained at a school that included NO conditioning, no physical strength training.. it was all technique.. but, we were required to fight once a week, at least 3 - 3 minute rounds, full on.. the teacher said you will condition yourself out of necessity, or fail.. he said his time was too valuable to be teaching us things we should be doing for ourselves.. so, we met off class times and developed our own conditioning regimens.. i appreciated the teacher's attention to fighting technique at class, the gym was where we handled our personal responsibility to maintain the power and conditioning.. Going to class that is half calisthetics is a waste of money and the teacher's valuable time and knowledge.. heck, we even sparred on the side just to make a good showing on Friday fight night..

It is arrogant and condescending to assume that those that train for differing reasons are somehow less than those that train purely to Fight.. Somehow, i doubt that many of you would dis Mat Hughes if he showed up in "silks" to kick your butt.. but, hey, prejudice is prejudice, regardless of how it is manifested.. It is patently absurd to "assume" that simply because some people "prefer" to train differently than you "prefer" that they train any less or are less capable.. Some well recognized Masters/fighters wear "silks", spout philosophy, have Tea Ceremonies, and.. kick butt... If your nature and character is so narrowly focused as to discount the preferences of others as compared to your own preferences, the loss is yours..

At the end of the day, we each go home.. some with regrets, some with bumps and bruises, some feeling as though they have somehow improved their lives, and some disgruntled because others don't agree with them.. I sleep well.

Be well....

[viper]

I turn ur att to my quote at the bottom it sums up my feelings i c nor white nor black i see techni colour. I dont care if ur a man woman or goat try to take a piece of me and i will defend myself hard. You only get out what u put in so I ask you what do you want out of it.

[David Jamieson]

Bob, you're taking way too much offense.

One can have kungfu in fighting as well. :p

and fighting kungfu is what it is.


kungfu opens it's arms to new ways and new concepts it doesn't tell them to get lost if they don't like what kungfu is. It absorbs and adapts and learns. That is WHY it is kungfu.

If Kungfu can't do this (I mean teh practitioners) Then I would venture to say that it's not kungfu.

[SPJ]

The way of martial or Kung Fu or Budo.

It is about fighting skills and techniques.

But it also includes ethics and philosophy.

It is about tactics and strategy.

It is not only about how to train to fight. But also an understanding of why we fight.

Being aggressive all the time may make you lose sight of something more.

:D

[David Jamieson]

The way of martial or Kung Fu or Budo.

It is about fighting skills and techniques.

But it also includes ethics and philosophy.

It is about tactics and strategy.

It is not only about how to train to fight. But also an understanding of why we fight.

Being aggressive all the time may make you lose sight of something more.

:D

a soldier knows his place in the world he lives. The master he serves and the weapons he carries. He has purpose and a clear path ahead of him. THis can be cause to be happy if that was his chosen way.

a man who trains for war, but will not go is lost. He is without purpose and his training moves away from original intent and becomes something other.

The lesson is to not let yourself become a don quixote. Yes, the training includes dualism, yes teh philosop[hy stress balance.

If one trains to fight, and never fights, the balance is evidently not there.

I think it is a mistake to cast of the value of training that doesn't include the trappings of culture and philosophy. It is wise to take these things in and include them with what is already there. It is a return to the path of martiality. One can still maintain their practice and make their training stronger.

If you lose site of the goal, you lose purpose. the martiality of kungfu is primary. Less Confuscian analects, more stair running, decrease the distraction to the mind, increase the speed of the wheel on which to sharpen the blade.

turning kungfu into something it is not and given it's secondary nature the role of primary nature is what corrupts it.

No bitter, no kungfu. period.

[PangQuan]

"without me, my rifle is useless, without my rifle i am usless"

replace rifle with martial art.

many people train to fight.

how many train to kill?

this is the original purpose of the martial way, is it not?

everything changes. No one is SUPER HARDCORE MAer. cause none of us are the deadly killing machines we should be


its all realative :rolleyes:

[neilhytholt]

Greetings..

Now we're talkin'... cut out the "Art" crap, dispense with all that traditional "well-rounded" stuff.. Just hone those skills into a razor sharp model of violence.

If your interest is in nothing but the fight, STFU, get out of here and train for the next fight.. This is a forum for and about "Kung Fu", not about MMA, TKD, Muay Thai, etc...

...

Be well....

That's not really my point. I'm saying a school should teach you to fight and fight realistically, and not waste your time with a lot of forms and uselessness to that goal.

If it's your interest to be "well-rounded" then what does that mean? TCM? A lot of so-called traditional schools don't teach that either.

[PangQuan]

i like the idea of breaking fingers.

it hurts like hell, stops people from grabbing you, is fairly easy IF you get your grip on one of those lil buggers, and it makes people mad.

i also like the idea of grabbing your junk, and pulling it as hard as i can and try to rip it off. we all know the effects of something like that.

but most of all, i like the idea of slipping a hidden piece of cold steel into your gut, twisting it and pullin it out.

thats part of my style.

no i cant train it that much, cause no one wants to be my dummy. :D but its a no brainer. you dont need much training to do that stuff.

all you need to know is how to get past a guard. i DO train that everyday

[David Jamieson]

i like the idea of breaking fingers.

it hurts like hell, stops people from grabbing you, is fairly easy IF you get your grip on one of those lil buggers, and it makes people mad.

i also like the idea of grabbing your junk, and pulling it as hard as i can and try to rip it off. we all know the effects of something like that.

but most of all, i like the idea of slipping a hidden piece of cold steel into your gut, twisting it and pullin it out.

thats part of my style.

no i cant train it that much, cause no one wants to be my dummy. :D but its a no brainer. you dont need much training to do that stuff.

all you need to know is how to get past a guard. i DO train that everyday

you can train that stuff.

soft targets are in teh realm of given and self evident. (ie eye pokes, groing grabs, fish hooks, et al. you can train them you can train teh targeting on a live opponent and there are myriad devices and methods to help you train the forces required.

for knife work, actual insertion techniques and so on, taht can be trained too. I believe its come up before that a stack of old tires is an awesome knife insertion/slashing training device. You can also use dead weapons or blunted weapons to train teh positioning required to make those insertions. Swords, staffs, halberds, all of the classical weapons have force application training as well that involves devices. Of course, I would concur that many school taht teach classical weapons merely teach the form and none of teh forcefeedback required to fully understand what it is to apply the weapon.

But it is not having to be that way at all. What doesn't make sense is why you would choose a halberd over a shotgun in this day and age. Perhaps that'
s why the realistic training has been removed from these types of weapons. My guess is that these antiquated weapons have been relegated to teh level of keeping only for posterity.

It doesn't have to be that way though as we can see with a lot of fma and others that live weapon training is paramount to understanding the weapon.

form/force are to be bound together. If they aren't, you'r only getting half a loaf, which is probably better tahn no loaf at all, but the variety of bread is different. I prefer a hearty whole grain over wonder bread anyday. :p

[PangQuan]

hot dang.

im off to get a pile of tires. thanks for the brain work there.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


but most of all, i like the idea of slipping a hidden piece of cold steel into your gut, twisting it and pullin it out.Really? you'll make a fine terrorist.. I told myself i wouldn't do this, but.. we have so desensitized ourselves that we "like" that kind of an idea.. i don't think so.. if you've never had to do it, it seems macho and tough.. it isn't. In the heat of battle you don't even notice it happening, you simply do the job you were trained to do, you survive.. but, later, in the still quiet moments the faces come back, the heat of their blood burns your hands and your memories.. the first time is horrifying, haunting and never stops echoing in your mind.. the next time it's easier, you think you can kill the first memory with the next shot or plunge, you can't.. it only gets worse.. But, on the light side, your Gov't pays you and then, when you complain of the haunting memories they say "tough it out, boy.. you're a soldier"..

Yeah, PangQuan, sounds real neat, huh... For all the BS i've seen on this Forum that line of your's tops it.. There may be one or two here that know what i'm talking about.. but, to post such tripe doesn't include you..

[PangQuan]

there is nothing wrong with liking the idea

you dont see me going around breaking fingers, pulling nuts or stabbing folks.

but to have like the idea of being prepared for such things has nothing wrong with it.

never did i state that i want to do such things. broken bones gross me out.

but ill be ****ed if im going to hide the possiblility of such realities from myself

sometimes i carry a knife, if i feel i may need it.

i have had to pull a blade 4 times in my life, each time ended with the fool walking. but i was prepared to slide that sucker in, thats why i carried it, and thats why i pulled it.

what will you do when your in venezuela and have someone follow you, intent on killing you whether you give up your money or not? will you give your wallet THEN get stabbed. I was told better than that, and i was warned of the crime rates and the possibilities.

believe it or not, pull a blade on a man who has one likewise, both men will be looking for the way out. no one wants to die.

[neilhytholt]

Yeah, Tai Chi Bob, I have to say your attitude is a very prevalent one in tai chi circles, which is why I don't take tai chi.

A little ironic since tai chi was supposed to have at one point been a very effective martial art.

Now you have a lot of people talking about culture in martial arts and using that as an excuse not to teach people effective self defense.

Don't really know what to say to that, except that having been first-hand on the receiving end of violence, just rolling over and playing dead isn't going to cut it when somebody's trying to take your head off.

Guess if that's what you're interested in is culture and martial morality or whatever then that's your perogative.

But keep in mind that it's cops with guns, a strong military, and a lot of people getting hurt and losing their lives is what it takes to create a system in which an attitude like yours can even exist.

IMHO the political correct non-violent attitude is sickening. It's one thing for good martial artists to preach martial morality.

It's another thing when it's used as an excuse to weaken people and keep them from learning practical self defense as is so often done by PRC teachers these days who never learned to fight and continue to want to make $$$.

It sounds from your post you must have been a soldier or killed people, so you of all people should know that without effective self defense and without a military that others will run all over us.

[SevenStar]

It is arrogant and condescending to assume that those that train for differing reasons are somehow less than those that train purely to Fight.. Somehow, i doubt that many of you would dis Mat Hughes if he showed up in "silks" to kick your butt.. but, hey, prejudice is prejudice, regardless of how it is manifested.. It is patently absurd to "assume" that simply because some people "prefer" to train differently than you "prefer" that they train any less or are less capable.. Some well recognized Masters/fighters wear "silks", spout philosophy, have Tea Ceremonies, and.. kick butt... If your nature and character is so narrowly focused as to discount the preferences of others as compared to your own preferences, the loss is yours..



I personally don't care about silk, style or tea parties - it's all in how you train... training methods.

[David Jamieson]

and inclusive to a sound method comes the focus and emphasis that is drawn to fit the student and to enhance their abilty and skill with teh method.

philosophy is fine and such, but coming from a kungfu teacher, it's second rate 9 times outta ten. That tenth guy is usually a bonafide buddhist or taoist at a religio-philosophical level and pursues that end with dharma lessons, meditation groups , book study and so on and so forth. THese practices can guide those who have not sufficiently developed themselves as a human being. The same is true of Kungfu practice.

Personal preferences have nothing to do with it. I burn incense at my sun toi, I drink tea, I make dit da jow, I bow to guan gong before and after my practice, I study the sutras, I read the tao te ching, I read the I ching and use it for it's judgements, I wear a black kungfu uniform most of the time when i practice, I liek wuxia literature, I like the stories of taosit 8 immortals and I have nothing but the deepest respect for the Chinese people and culture in a wide sense.


However, none of this has to do with martial method and skill , ability and attribute development in a martial artist.

if you go to a book store, and it's actually a coffee shop with very few books and you really wanted something to read and not so much something to drink, do you think you would go to a bookstore that emphasized books and bookselling, or would you stick with teh cafe simply because it's more convenient and be happy with the small offerings of literature they have?

context is very important.

[PangQuan]

my teacher was raised in a temple from the age of 4 or so to 15 (actual birthdate unkown)

he sat outside the temple for 6 months training horse stance before the monks would let him come inside to live.

he trained there under the diciple ship of his master, who was elderly, along with the 4 others who his master had taken on. they would travel to different temples through out asia. thailand, cambodia, vietnam etc...

today he carries the burden of continuing the tradition, alone.

he was a monk then, and today he still is. just a different type of monk. there is the monk that lives in the temple and there are the ones that leave and go into the world.

NEVER has he preached his beliefs to his students. the only phylosophies he touches are those directly related to self defense.

it is easy to not teach phylosophy and religion beliefs with words. but to teach by example is something that cannot be removed. his good nature and caring attitude carry on into his students, even though he does not preach it.

there is some ego at our school, of course, but suprisingly little. and rarely have i ever seen ego interupt our studies.

when we spar in school we are to go mid energy, try not to hurt your brother. yet when we spar outside the school we are taught to hurt your opponent as quickly as you can and take them out of the game.

if we are invited to a match of, say point sparring, we may accept, but we will lose based on points, but we may win the match by domination. we do not conform our style to that of sport.

this may be good, this may be bad. this is how we are.

he tries to carry his traditional teachings on, but at the same time we try to adapt to modern times.

[TaiChi-IronPalm]

Basically i have found that many MA sifus/sensei are open to specialized training with individuals, I have been at my current kwoon for only 2 months, but just yesterday my sifu broke out the BaJi style for me, I have had 15 years of training in various arts such as Judo, Hapkido, Aikido, Tae Kwon Do, Jeet Kune Do, and Uechi Ryu and Isshin Ryu Karate. I am the only student at the Kwoon who is learning Baji, why, because my Sifu sees that I am interested and attentive, and that I have the capability to learn the forms and techniques, everyone else is doing 8 step mantis, I was only doing tai chi and learning it as kung fu and working very hard, he saw how I was on my own using the tai chi stuff on the heavy bag etc. being dilligent with my practice and so forth. He breaks down the elements of the form and has me practice each move on the bag and him, he shows me the techniqes also by two man drills he will do the technique to me, sometimes knocking me 10 or 12 feet back and down on the floor yes it hurts sometimes, do I complain? No. He seems to be a great judge of peoples individual training needs, he knows I am serious so we work the tecniques in a serious way banging hard on each other, he is always patient corrects my mistakes immedeately to prevent mistakes from getting in muscle memory. Its funny sometimes because I will ask him if he can teach me so and so and he looks at me like saying, not until I know i can trust you with it. I mean the guy has been learning kung fu for 30 years and knows like 8 styles and he is old and sometimes it seems like when we talk he is sizing me up, to see if he can trust me with the real deal of his kung fu, not the stuff you get taught right in the door but the real deal stuff. At any rate I have had several teachers that gave me individualized training at no extra cost because I always worked hard and built a rapport and trust with the teacher. Most kung fu places arent going to bust out the real essence of the style techniques or the rare styles that the Sifu knows, when you first walk in the door, there is a trust issue at play. This is possibly more of an issue in KF than other arts. He teaches like 36 different weapons and is open to teaching which ever ones you like.

BTW Baji is awesome, very practical direct and hits HARD, massive power generation in small space, could be extremely useful in a clinch etc. Its definitely a one shot one kill art, my wife says its the most aggressive and brutal style she has ever seen, I concur. Also I would like to state that my Sifu is overweight and he can fight circles around even the fittest guys in the kwoon without even breaking a sweat, and they are gassed out, so he is obviously fit on the inside which is what counts for longevity and happiness.

Wishing you all a balanced life with yin and yang in proper harmony. :)

[neilhytholt]

Basically i have found that many MA sifus/sensei are open to specialized training with individuals, I have been at my current kwoon for only 2 months, but just yesterday my sifu broke out the BaJi style for me,...

Wishing you all a balanced life with yin and yang in proper harmony. :)

Sounds like you've got a good sifu. Hard to find Baji in the U.S.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I don't know if it's prejudice or ignorance, but.. How is it that so many people attach arbitrary preferential values to anything other than "hardcore training"? Do they so ignorantly assume that someone cannot train for real fighting skills if they also train their minds and spirits? Is it not possible to incorporate more than pure violence into a Martial curriculum? A balance perhaps?

Where are the "Scholar Warriors"? In a rush to macho bravado we diminish the "Art" of Martial Art.. What i am hearing is much more like a curriculum of "Martial Skills", not a Martial Art...

It sounds from your post you must have been a soldier or killed people, so you of all people should know that without effective self defense and without a military that others will run all over us.Yes, and i have.. And yes, without a valid deterrent a person or a nation will be a victim.. generally a victim of bullies, tyrants and oppressive regimes that have little or no moral value system.. Hitler, Pol Pot, Sadam Hussein, Ho Chi Minh, Mao, on and on.. these dictators and oppressors were controlled by force AND a value system that chose to confront them in support of a greater principle rather than join them in a dominion over others.. It is imperative that man and nation have a viable defense system.. it is equally imperative that there be a moral code that prevents that system from degenerating into another oppressive regime.. Hence:

IMHO the political correct non-violent attitude is sickening. It's one thing for good martial artists to preach martial morality.When i read stuff like this i am saddened that such a simple concept as wude or appropriate action is pushed aside in favor of bolstering some concept that violence is the answer to our problems.. While i am non-violent by nature, i have spent the major portion of my lifetime training for the possibility that i may have to defend myself or others.. and i have trained well. I believe that the "political correct non-violent attitude" is appropriate, i also believe that it is essential to have a viable deterrent in the event that the attitude is not effective.. "walk softly, but carry a big stick", T. Roosevelt.. Individuals and nations that "trample needlessly and swing a big stick" suffer the label of tryants, bullies and overlords.. To assert that "the political correct non-violent attitude is sickening." is a symptom of a civilization in decline.. where discrimination, prejudice, power, and self-interest are valued over peaceful co-existence..

I train my students to be prepared to defend themselves in a broad spectrum of circumstances.. i also offer lessons in philosophy, meditation, TCM, and a number of other disciplines not relative to this discussion.. but, it is an offer, not a requirement..

Yeah, Tai Chi Bob, I have to say your attitude is a very prevalent one in tai chi circles, which is why I don't take tai chi... A little ironic since tai chi was supposed to have at one point been a very effective martial art... Now you have a lot of people talking about culture in martial arts and using that as an excuse not to teach people effective self defense.Really? you have no idea how i teach, what i teach, what my attitude is, or.. most importantly, what my capabilities are.. I can say with near certainty that with more than 40 years in various martial disciplines you would be surprised at how softly i can walk or how much deterrent i conceal... but, as in a previous dialogue, the offer still stands.. i will be at Nick Scrima's tournament this weekend and would be honored to meet you and many others from this forum.. i think a direct experience would bring about a much better understanding of perspectives.. oh, and my students will bring home many trinkets (crosses fingers, burns insence, and consults I Ching.. :D )

I am not confrontational, i try to be respectful, i try not to assume more than i can reasonably support with evidence, and, i don't look for trouble.. BUT, i will stand behind my beliefs, i will defend myself and those incapable of defending themselves, and i will try to be compassionate in defense, not using more force than is necessary to control a situation..

Better to walk away than fight..
Better to hurt than to maime
Better to Maime than to kill
Better to kill than to be killed

Better to be a Warrior in the garden
Than a gardener in the war.

Be better... Be well...

[monkeyfoot]

Well its not that way over here in england, we have many traditional schools that are thriving, traditional kung fu training appeals to a lot of people here.

though of course many people come and then leave.....usually to something like kickboxing or muay thai.....but many people stay and train hard and stay dedicated to their sifu.

urgh im so bored of these topics that im not even going to bother finishing this post...

craig

[neilhytholt]

Greetings..

I don't know if it's prejudice or ignorance, but.. How is it that so many people attach arbitrary preferential values to anything other than "hardcore training"? Do they so ignorantly assume that someone cannot train for real fighting skills if they also train their minds and spirits? Is it not possible to incorporate more than pure violence into a Martial curriculum? A balance perhaps?


Martial arts is martial arts is martial arts is fighting. It is learning how to defend oneself.

If you want to learn books or something you can do that on your own time, right? It just takes time away from class.

It's only in the past 6 years or so I even ran into people that didn't do martial arts to learn to fight and defend themselves, which is why I'm so confused by the entire thing.

I've asked many of them why they are doing it if it's not to fight and they won't give me a straight answer. I don't ask them anymore.

Anyways like the last poster said I'm tired of the whole topic too. It's just so stupid and pointless.

I was just trying in this thread to point out that so-called traditional teachers who are losing students might try to do something to spice up their classes, but evidently they aren't interested.

[Red Wind Fist]

Greetings..

Yeah, PangQuan, sounds real neat, huh... For all the BS i've seen on this Forum that line of your's tops it.. There may be one or two here that know what i'm talking about.. but, to post such tripe doesn't include you..

funny. I enjoy PangQuan's thoughts more than yours.:)

[Asia]

I've been looking for a place where I can do what I want, practice staff if I want, do MMA oriented sparring if I want, and the only places that are at all flexible are the MMA places.


Funny thing is I hear many so called TMA schools and practioners bash MMA schools but I have NEVER caught flack for practicing and training Bajiquan at my MMA/BJJ school. Mainly because I have a very good record of beating pple up and actually using it than talking about it. I truly believe that MMA is more like old schools kwoons that what is often pushed as "traditional" today.

[neilhytholt]

Funny thing is I hear many so called TMA schools and practioners bash MMA schools but I have NEVER caught flack for practicing and training Bajiquan at my MMA/BJJ school. Mainly because I have a very good record of beating pple up and actually using it than talking about it. I truly believe that MMA is more like old schools kwoons that what is often pushed as "traditional" today.

Well it's much more like the places I studied in 20 years ago. Back then we used to have open sparring nights where students could invite anybody. I sparred everybody from bar brawlers to boxers.

I would go to the MMA schools and fight more if boxers weren't so intent on cutting up the face.

[BoulderDawg]

Back to the original post: Why are traditional schools losing out to the Chain schools:

I can only speak to my experience. I've been training in Shaolin for 5 months now under the teachings of Grandmaster The. Now before I got involved with Shaolin I had no idea what contitutes a good school vs a bad school(I still really don't know since I have nothing to compare my experience on but I do enjoy my school).

Anyway, if you're like me, you are going to check out the school before you join. You may look to see how they treat beginners, How many students are there, the demeanor of the instructors and the general overall appearance of the school. At this point traditional training does not really factor into your choice of schools.

That said maybe some schools are a little more marketable than others. Also the "Traditional" schools may appear as more of a commitment than other schools.

As I said, I enjoy my school and I'm there three nights a week but if I felt pressure to somehow keep up and stretch myself beyond my limits I would probably find another school.

[PangQuan]

if I felt pressure to somehow keep up and stretch myself beyond my limits I would probably find another school.

not to dis respect.

i find this is one way that i improve over myself on a daily basis.

I always push to go beyond my limits.

[BoulderDawg]

not to dis respect.

i find this is one way that i improve over myself on a daily basis.

I always push to go beyond my limits.

Personally I think this is a recipe for failure and injury. Striving for one's greatest potential is one thing. Trying to push yourself beyond your physical means is another.

I read some of the personal workout blogs here and while they sounded good most made goals for their daily routine that were grueling and unrealistic. If you push yourself beyond your limits you tear your body down not build it up.

Now that said only a small group of people try to go beyond their means. The great majority of people do not give maximum effort during a workout. Only a few physically know where they're at and how far they can go.

I'm at peace knowing I'll never be able to dunk a basketball or run a 30 minute 10K or for that matter fight and defeat the best Kung Fu Warriors in the world. However I can improve my health, get fit and learn to defend myself against at least 90% of the population.

[GeneChing]

If you're just looking at your neighborhood and using that as some indicator of the country, that's as silly as the electoral college. It sounds more like a way to rant about some personal issues on so-called traditional schools. :p

Based on stats from our parent company, Tiger Claw (http://www.tigerclaw.com), I can't see a significant decline in the purchasing amounts of traditional schools versus the rest. I can see a decline in the industry in general. Despite what many of you self-proclaimed hardcore practitioners might believe, martial arts is a leisure activity for the bulk of the country. It's only a lifestyle for a very few. Whenever there is economic pressure, like say, rising gas prices, the leisure economies take a hit. So there's an overall slump in the martial arts. There's less money being spent on it, because there's less money to be spent, but it's not more pronounced for traditional versus modern schools at all.

What you may be seeing is new schools trying to take advantage of the economy in vulture capitalist sort of way. Poor economy means more small business closures. More small business closures means more open real estate. More open real estate means opportunities for new small businesses. But those new businesses are destined to failure, just like the old ones, unless the business owner has some shrewd entrepreneurial skills.

The fact of the matter is that martial arts businesses succeed or fail based solely on how good their business acumen is. It has nothing to do with them being traditional, modern, real or fake. If the owner can't run a business properly, that school will close. Period. The problem here is it's a lot to expect from one person to be a great master and a great businessman. Often, the businessman wins out and thus, lower quality masters tend to stay in business. But that's just a trend. A well-studied martial artist knows when to delegate. Like Sun Tzu said, know your troops.

The one thing I will say that harms 'traditionalists' is that they lean towards being close-minded and exclusionary. You hear it all the time, even on this thread - 'My way is traditional. My way is right. Your way is not my way. Therefore you are not traditional." But what they are really trying to say is "you're not right." All traditional means is that we honor our ancestors. There's an implied morality or ethical code, just because it's orthodox, but I think that's projected by many moderns. If you research the past martial artists, you'll find just as much chicanery as there is now, just without online forums. That being said, many martial artists hide behind the word 'tradition' just to propound their personal philosophy. That's unfortunate, because if anything, it creates and perpetuates a division in the martial arts world. And frankly, there's not enough martial artists for us to be divisive in the world today. Just do your practice. Who cares if someone else's practice is not traditional, or even fake? What does that have to do with you?

[neilhytholt]

No, Gene, I'm basing this off of personal dialogue and interviews with many teachers that I contacted all around the country, but mostly with the people who started the original MA chain school, the Tracys, who I contacted. Actually a lot of that was based on conversation with Al Tracy because he said that a lot of their schools (nationwide) are closing.

Not that the Tracys are traditional, just that he made the observation that nobody wants to learn real self defense anymore and real fighting, that they want more sport and fitness oriented martial arts.

But you could be right about the economy thing. It's for sure that wages aren't keeping up with inflation. Instead the rich folks are pocketing the difference.

Edit ...

Anyways, when the founders of the original chain school are lamenting the Steve DeMascos and USSDs that are taking over where their schools used to be, it seems like a pretty sorry state of the martial arts.

But based upon membership (once again, anecdotal and gathered from visiting schools and seeing how many students they were) and judging their cash flows based upon the number of members who of course don't show up every day and estimated rents of the area gleaned by talking to realtors (I was researching starting my own school), it seems like many of these chains are possibly in negative cash flow and will close soon.

But moreso what I've come across checking out schools is the level of training is really low. I've been told the situation is better in Europe but it's pretty sad at a lot of these schools.

[SPJ]

Ole school or new school;

We all have to change with time.

For business saviness, we all have to change with the dynamic of the market.

Consumers and demands drive the market.

:D

[PangQuan]

gene, why dont you just change your handle to "the regulator"

you make a good point how ever.

"Just do your practice. Who cares if someone else's practice is not traditional, or even fake? What does that have to do with you?"
~The Regulator

that may just make it to sig status.

there is a reason why mcdonalds makes more money than the prime steak house thats just down the street from it.

marketing, and ruthless business tactics.

[SPJ]

there is a reason why mcdonalds makes more money than the prime steak house thats just down the street from it.

marketing, and ruthless business tactics.

Perceived values.

dollar manu, yogurt, toys for kids meals, -- the main thing is drive thru, you get something fast.

If I have time and not on the road or in a hurry, I would sit in a steak house and spend 1 hour waiting by taking drinks, appetiters before the main meal is cooked.

By the time, the steak dinner is served, I am full already with the chips etc.

:D

[neilhytholt]

Perceived values.

dollar manu, yogurt, toys for kids meals, -- the main thing is drive thru, you get something fast.

If I have time and not on the road or in a hurry, I would sit in a steak house and spend 1 hour waiting by taking drinks, appetiters before the main meal is cooked.

By the time, the steak dinner is served, I am full already with the chips etc.

:D

That doesn't even talk about the real reason drive-thru and McD is so popular, which is KIDS!!!

Try taking your kids to a sit-down place. It's total chaos. Lines and waiting and screaming kids.

But with McD it's instant gratification. No waiting. Happy kids. Restaurants could learn a lot from McDs.

Now if there was just a health food version of McDs, because junk food isn't that good for kids.

[BlueTravesty]

Now if there was just a health food version of McDs, because junk food isn't that good for kids.

I hear ya! McD's doesn't have the best food quality-wise, and besides the couple "going-thru-the-motions" attempts at salads, it certainly isn't good health-wise, it's fast and convenient. I would probably eat fast food more than once a month if they put more healthy offerings on the menus (and i'm not just talking salads, yogurt, and grilled chicken sandwiches with all the wrong vegetables.) Burger king got my money for a little bit when they had their chicken baguettes (which, besides the carbs from the baguettes were VERY healthy.) but when they dropped the baguettes, I dropped fast food.

If I do have to go eat out, Subway (chicken breast, spinach, jalapenos, black olives, vinegar, any bread.) is usually the best bet health-wise, but my break at work is only 30 minutes so that ain't happening on a regular basis.

Now If only there was a "good, solid MA" version of McDojo's, because junk MA isn't that good for anybody.

[GeneChing]

Just what I need, another nickname... Well, I often say I practice mostly to keep me regular, which you might not take too seriously, but just you wait, just wait until regularity is a problem.

I doubt that people have lost interest in real fighting anymore. If anything, there seems to be more interest in reality, mostly fallout of MMA and 9/11 terroristophobia, I imagine. If anything, that has made a lot of TMA seem less real, mostly because it has narrowed the perspective of the general population about what a real fight might be. I've dubbed it Cage-match tunnel syndrome. Ok, I'm still working on that term. Anyway, it assumes that there's only going to be one opponent and that he will be a top-notch martial artist too. MMA is better built for the sport and fitness set. But I digress.

The real power behind TMA, especially TCMA, is that it can be practiced by anyone. You don't have to be in top shape or within some narrow age window. You may not ever be ready for the cage, but if you're in your 40's, or 50's or beyond, or just aren't built like a gorilla (:p ), who cares? Of course, this inundates our field with LARPers, but thigns could be worse. Even LARPers need their exercise. The bottom line is that hardcore martial arts simply aren't for everyone. Watered-down versions are ok for some, maybe not for us personally, but it keeps our economy alive and allows some masters to live comfortably.

[neilhytholt]

The bottom line is that hardcore martial arts simply aren't for everyone. Watered-down versions are ok for some, maybe not for us personally, but it keeps our economy alive and allows some masters to live comfortably.

Well I guess I didn't know what real 'traditional' training is. I was talking to an older (not that old) Hung Gar guy about it this weekend, and he said his master trained them the 'traditional' way. I asked him what that meant, and he pulled up his pants and showed me his legs, which had a lot of thin line type scars.

Basically he said that if you got a move wrong, the master would whip you with a stick. !!!!! This, and the guy's only late 40s or something, kindof surprising that they could get away like that.

Anyway he made the joke that scarring up your leg is one way to condition it against blows.

So evidently hardly anybody does it the traditional way anymore.

[GeneChing]

A lot of people talk about being trained traditionally, but traditional training is by rod, and frankly, that's not marketable, except maybe in South of Market, San Francisco. Maybe the traditional schools should look more seriously into the B&D circles. We already got some of the hardware. (http://www.martialartsmart.net/Studded.html) I hear their economy is thriving...;)

[neilhytholt]

A lot of people talk about being trained traditionally, but traditional training is by rod, and frankly, that's not marketable, except maybe in South of Market, San Francisco. Maybe the traditional schools should look more seriously into the B&D circles. We already got some of the hardware. (http://www.martialartsmart.net/Studded.html) I hear their economy is thriving...;)

Okay, I talked to this guy further, and he said that he wasn't joking about the leg conditioning thing.

He said that his instructor later told him that they focus on hitting that specific part of the leg to build up scar tissue there, as that reduces the pain along some nerve.

So it actually has a double-purpose, student discipline + leg conditioning. ???

Maybe the traditional schools just need to hire some hot instructors. :)

[PangQuan]

more so, especially in america, the term traditional is more used in terms of the movements, and specific methods used in teaching.

not all methods are utilized however, can we still refer to this as traditional?

traditional is such a broad term and is used far too loosely.

i say more that my teacher was trained traditionally, he uses traditional methods modern methods, however he does leave out a lot of the traditional methods. He would have little to no students were he to teach the way he was taught.

i would say we are traditional to a point in our training but not fully.