Sure you can fight without I-Ching, but can you master the art?

[Scarletmantis]

" a fighter can be born without the necessary knowledge of the I-Ching"

- Razak da mindboxer

I couldn't agree more. As Razak points out in another thread, anyone can be trained to fight using the venerable style of Ba Gua Zhang. However, he also asserts that I-Ching is "necessary".

I don't know how far the I-Ching theories go in being applicable to Ba Gua fighting concepts, but being that I-Ching is linked somehow (no one seems to agree on the extent of the link) isn't it important to at least have a cursory understanding of I-Ching?

To me, mastery implies that one has learned all of the aspects of his chosen martial art. Since mastery is my goal, shouldn't I make a study of the academic side of Ba Gua as well?

"The essence of life is struggle and it's goal is domination. There are higher goals and deeper meanings, but they exist only within the minds of men. The reality of life is war."

[razakdigital]

Scarlet,

Learn from me my friend, when you write a post on I-Ching and how you dont think it connects to Pa Kua Chang fighting look for the following...

a. you won't get any responses
or
b. you will get a lot of responses you won't like

good luck on this one...

o by the way i'm honored that you quoted me - I'm ususally cursed at...

[razakdigital]

You don’t need the I-ching to learn how to fight with pakua but there are 3 factors to be a fighter...

1. YOU HAVE TO BE BRAVE - BEING BRAVE BRINGS COURAGE. WITH OUT COURAGE HOW CAN YOU TAKE A STEP IN COMBAT?

2. YOU HAVE TO HAVE POWER - YOU HAVE TO HAVE POWER TO STOP OR KILL YOUR OPPONENET. THIS IS THE OBJECTIVE OF MARTIAL ARTS.

3. YOU HAVE TO HAVE SKILLZZZZZZZZZZZZ - YOU HAVE TO HAVE A METHOD TO GET IN ON YOUR OPPONETENT.

When I spar with my classmates - I don't think about the I-Ching or 8 immortal guards...I have to concentrate and focus moving in and moving out against my opponent...also taking hits because in a fight you have to take hits...

I-Ching is just someone's philosophies...one has to understand the concept of Yin and Yang...
I-Ching is the Yang of the warrior it helps one to stay calm and settled...if you psychologically...but if you want to learn how to fight then you have to train how to fight...

if you talk too much you can't do too much - this was even true in China...

I learn this from my teacher the black taoist...

[razakdigital]

When I stated that I learn this from theblacktaoist...He didn't sit down and gave information and I just believe it...I had to learn on my own in class, studying, sparring, tournaments...and from my own spirit.

[Scarletmantis]

Nice supporting statements Razak. I truly am interested in being more than just a competent fighter though. Anyone can learn to be a fighter, fewer will be "great" fighters, fewer still will be able to manifest the skill level and technical expertise that would drive his/her peers to call the individual a Master.

By striving to explore all of the possibilities that our art has to offer, I hope to one day achieve the elusive qualities that we admire in our legendary founders.

My question remains unanswered. Many, many posters on this board have voiced an opinion either for or against I-Ching study. Some have even implied that if you are able to spend time reading I-Ching, you aren't training long/serious/hard enough. Of course by that rational, none of us should be writing on this board!

Out of all the folks who have kindly put in thier two cents, I have yet to hear from a recognized authority. Some of you claim to be students of such teachers as John Painter, Vince Black, Mike Patterson, Park Bok Nam, Adam Hsu, George Xu etc.

What do your teachers have to say on this issue? Why not stop the bickering, and lay the issue wide open? We might not agree in the end, but at least we'd all learn something. Isn't that why we're here?

[This message was edited by ScarletMantis on 05-15-01 at 06:11 PM.]

[maoshan]

Scarletmantis,

While I agree with you on the point "true mastery
of an art implies all aspects of that art".

Knowledge of the I-Ching will not make or brake you in your quest for mastery.

Relentless study of the principles and theories,
Practical use of the 8 Powers and conditioning
and of course a good teacher will lead to mastery.

The great Masters of the past trained constantly
to breach the vail of mastery. The I-Ching is no small thing to pick up. The book is very complex
and in truth, cannot be simplified. In China the book is not picked up until middle age(45-50).
That was traditional. The immature mind is not ready for the I-Ching. A book on the opposite spectrum in terms of society. This is a book of contemplation for the beginner. an oricle to the initiated. But only the initiated.
Spending time trying to make sense of the connection between the 1st palm, the Chien Trigram
and the Chien Hexagram will only serve to stunt
the progress of the aspiring student not of the culture of the I-Ching.
The founder himself didn't begin to make connections with the I-Ching until very late in his life, and I mean the last 3 or 4yrs of his life. Before that time he was unbeatable, and he had no deep knowledge of the I-Ching. What he had was superior Training methods and principles which he honed to perfection.

My Sifu Chen Xiao Ping put it this way, " Do you want to learn Ba-Gua Or the I-Ching? You want the book? go read. Why bother me?"
The I-Ching is a tool used on the path to the self. But a complex tool that must be approuched
carfully and quietly(the mind). western beginners
cannot, unless predisposed, get anything out of the book as far as martial arts is concerned unless they lie to themselves.
The I-Ching represents Mysteries thus implying secrets. as Sun Lu tang Said "there are no secrets, Practice, Practice, Practice.

Peace
Maoshan

[razakdigital]

Let me add this point also...I'm not Chinese so I can do all of this research on the I-Ching all I want - I will never get the true essence because I'm not Chinese. So I have to apply everything from my prospective and from my viewpoint as an Afrikan.... don’t get me wrong...you do what you have do to make you a better a fighter...

Mr. Mantis - you put out some interesting names... I would love to hear what everyone has to say on this …All of the other Pa Kua cats I know (who are Chinese) that deal with the fighting aspect of the art don't get into philosophy - hopefully no one will take this discussion personally because everyone can be touchy on their belief systems..

One thing I learn from theblacktaoist as well as other Pa Kua Chang artists - if you don't have a bridge there is nothing to talk about...if you cannot break a persons bridge then how can you say you know Pa Kua? (By the way I'm working hard on learning how to have a strong bridge. It's not easy but I'm learning)

I'm going to Beijing on July 2 and believe me I will do HEAVY RESEARCH on this issue (thanks Mr. Ping and theblacktaoist for the hook up) and I will seek and be with TRUE PA KUA CHANG fighters. I will bring back this information for everyone...

[count]

What is mastery? A person can develop a high level of skills and to the inexperienced observer appear to have a total control and understanding of the art. Yet that person may still feel inside, that they could refine more, and perfect their skills through more practice. There is no such thing as perfect. So as pointed out, Sun Lu Tang said, "there is no mastery, only practice".

Does a person need to understand the I-ching to attain a level of mastery in bagua? Maybe not. A person does not need a holy bo ok to know the difference between right and wrong. You just feel the difference and live according to your conscience. But in reading the holy books (can be the Bible, Koran, Upanishads, whatever) you tap into a higher level of understanding of what you are feeling from a cultural perspective, and strengthen the convictions of your conscience and spirit. You attach a mental image of what can only be felt, and open the door to a higher level of spirituality.

Can a preacher give you a higher level of spirituality than he himself has? No! He can only point you in the direction you need to follow to reach your own goals. The same is true for a teacher. He can not give you a higher level of mastery than he has, but he can point you in the right direction and tell you what you need to practice to get there. The ultimate goal of a teacher is for the student to surpass his ability and take it to a higher level and his ultimate reward is for the student to pass it on to another. In that sense, the teacher has attained immortality.

The ancient taoists tried to understand the nature of the universe and through their understanding and practices achieve immortality. They found that the nature of the universe was constant change. They wrote the books of changes to illustrate ways to understand change. They used the mathematical formula of the trigrams as a method to quickly remember what was written. The nature of bagua is constant change. In baguazhang, there are, as pointed out by maoshan, 8 powers or energies that need to be practiced and understood. Each energy has 3 parts like a trigram. Upper, middle, and lower. In order to get the maximum force you must express a balance of yin and yang in each. This balance is clearly illustrated by a trigram. When you combine two energies you effect change. There are 64 possible combinations as there are 64 chapters in the I-ching. By using the same mathematical formula you can quickly remember baguazhang.

Like maoshan, my teacher often says the I-ching is for fortune telling, baguazhang is for fighting. Yet in our practice we can not separate the energy from the trigrams. In understanding the trigrams, you understand the energy. The I-ching is a method of understanding the trigrams. The trigrams are the programming language of the I-ching. It is not necessary to understand the programming language of a computer to use an application. You can only become a power user by constantly using the program. But if you do understand the source you can use the program quicker and more efficiently. You become a better baguazhang fighter by fighting with baguazhang. But if you want to use baguazhang more efficiently with a high level of mastery, you must also understand the programming language.

:

[This message was edited by count on 05-16-01 at 07:40 AM.]

[count]

I look forward to hearing about your experiences with the masters. I'm sure you will have the experience of a lifetime. Just a reminder to maoshan about the trip. Remember the elbow knives.
:D

[razakdigital]

"Can a preacher give you a higher level of spirituality than he himself has? No! He can only point you in the direction you need to follow to reach your own goals. The same is true for a teacher. He can not give you a higher level of mastery than he has, but he can point you in the right direction and tell you what you need to practice to get there. The ultimate goal of a teacher is for the student to surpass his ability and take it to a higher level and his ultimate reward is for the student to pass it on to another. In that sense, the teacher has attained immortality. "

Hopefully the preacher can point you the right direction. But who can say he knows himself?Concerning holy books, you are studying another man's interpretation of religion. Remember religion and spiritual are TWO different things...
Who says the prophet Muhamed was right? Who says King James is right?

Our hope is that our teacher understand the true and realistic way to teach you.

Now count, you know as well I do programming language is just a tool to get you to your final destination...the program. Whether I use Java or C++ if I want a program I will get there with one of the tools. Who says the I-Ching is the programming language of Pa Kua Chang? Shoot - I thought it was the single changing palm.

Of all the great masters of Pa Kua Chang - how many of them ACTUALLY used the I-Ching in their practice? That is a question I hope that someone can point out to me...

Did Fu Chen Song use it? Did Yin Fu use it? Did Cheng Ting Hua use it? Dig Wang (The Pakua master that defeated the Japanese)use it?

Again I'm not trying to disrpect the use of the I-Ching but just curious on the actual application of it in a realistic situation.

[count]

"Hopefully the preacher can point you the right direction. But who can say he knows himself?Concerning holy books, you are studying another man's interpretation of religion. Remember religion and spiritual are TWO different things... Who says the prophet Muhamed was right? Who says King James is right?"

Spirituality is strengthened through religious practice. Buddha and Christ are not of the same religion but walked the same path to enlightenment. The upanishads and the bible are not of the same religion, but they both tell the same stories of creation and the mysteries of life. All versions are right when the meaning is understood. None is correct if you do not look past the metaphor and find the true meaning.

"Now count, you know as well I do programming language is just a tool to get you to your final destination...the program. Whether I use Java or C++ if I want a program I will get there with one of the tools. Who says the I-Ching is the programming language of Pa Kua Chang? Shoot - I thought it was the single changing palm."

That is true provided the operating system is capable of compiling C++ or Java. But if the program language can not understand C++ or Java, the tool is useless. If you reduce bagua to the single palm change that is basic compared to java. Maybe all the palms come from a single palm change but there are 8 distinctive mother palms in baguazhang. The keys to understand the 8 mother palms in a realistic application can be unlocked by understanding the connection with the 8 trigrams. If someone attacks me with hawk or fire I can easily defend with water/snake and counter that with earth/bear and so on. If I throw wood/phoenix at it first without defending, I risk being consumed by the flame. Yes, you could reduce this to basic by saying 1=yang and 0=yin. But basic is to java what bagua is to longfist. Bagua uses the circle for attack and defense. If you split the circle into all the possible directions you have a bagua. If a yang attack comes from the yang side of the circle you defend from the yin side with yin and counter from one of the remaining directions. 64 possible combinations of defend and counter.

I do not know off hand which of the early teachers in bagua used the theory of the bagua and/or the 5 elements in their mastery of the art. Maybe they used it with out even making the connection. I think they all must at some point in their life understood the relationship. Who can say. No one knows if Tung invented bagua or learned of it from his taoist teachers. Certainly his taoist teachers methods of understanding the nature of constant change influenced Tungs development and ultimate mastery of the art. Maybe as maoshan pointed out, his understanding did not come until the last part of his life, but it did come eventually.

:)

[Scarletmantis]

"Relentless study of the principles and theories, practical use of the 8 powers and conditioning, and of course a good teacher will lead to mastery." - Maoshan

"...if you want to use Ba Gua Zhang more efficiently with a high level of mastery, you must also understand (it's) programming language."

- count

I find your comments to support what I have often suspected myself. My definition of "Mastery" in relation to the martial arts includes the implication that one understands the theory behind his art intimatly.

I-Ching theory is obviously of some use in discussing and explaining the energies and gross techniques inherent in our style. Shouldn't a "Master" understand and be able to explain his/her art to others? If the I-Ching is nothing more than a mnemonic aid for the student of Ba Gua, does this reduce or eliminate it's value?

If I can manifest good Ba Gua technique, but can't point the way to someone else, I might be an incredible fighter, but am I qualified to be a teacher? Have I Mastered Ba Gua Zhang?

Maybe being a good fighter is all our art is really about. After all, modern medicine has been very slowly looking at the possibility of using internal arts for physical therapy, as the Chinese have done, for some time. But I suggest that if you were to go see your personal doctor with a condition such as osteoperosis, he would sooner prescribe you drugs than recommend Tai Chi!

Maybe all the health and Chi stuff is really just hype. Maybe internal arts are no different than western boxing when it comes down to it...

If we toss out I-Ching, five elements, Chi Kung, meditation etc. what are we left with? Certainly we will still have effective fighting styles, but that's it.

[RAF]

Count:

I felt the sameway you did and still do to a large extent. However, after listening to researchers outside the martial artists, I do not think they had to really study the Yi Jing. It was simply their way of experiencing the world and interpreting the world. Since the Yi Jing is so embedded in the Chinese psyche at that time, their probably was no reason to study or translate it---it was understood.

My hypothesis is that it was mutually understood by all who participated in the learning of bagua and it was not put into print until Dong Haichuan until his later life. Its my bet, just as we understand the molecular structure of our world, they understood the Yi Jing structure of their world and bagua as a martial art was simply a part of it.

Just as you do not have to know geometry to be a good pool player so goes knowing the Yi Jing to be a good bagua zhang player. But even the most mathematically illiterate understand stand an angle and force---even the most illiterate bagua zhang player probably understood what change and life was from the perspective of the Yi Jing. It is highly likely that they encountered the Yi Jing outside of the martial arts circle.

This will probably be the last message I post for awhile since I am sitting in the beautiful coastal town of Pusan Korea.

Our website is back up and please check out some of the articles and items we have up. www.wutangcenter.com (http://www.wutangcenter.com)

Post ya later.

[virus fist]

Scarlet Mantis

You are correct in believing that knowing theory opens up the doors to deeper understanding of the art,it is a necesity that without it you will be lost.
Of course you can fight,but how do you know that you are doing Pa Kua?,what is your guidance?,how can you do research?.

Pa kua is a natural art based on Principles,principles come from theory and theory comes from nature.

Mastery comes from understanding details and not by knowing forms,anybody can copy forms but few know the why,when,where and what for.

Theory is a fundamental ingredient to develop this knowledge,theory is what makes MA different from each other.

I learned that we need to research not only the I ching but also Five Element and Yin and Yang theory as well ,this trinity must be present in all your movements,otherwise they will be incompleted and inbalanced.

Pa Kwa is NOT only for fighting,it is also for HEALTH,without a healthy body you can not fight, you need balance in your training

Cultivating your mind,your breathing and doing Chi Kung are very important and guess what? without theory,NO detail,no deeper understandind,therefore NOT much progress,if you always get the same feelings doing Chi Kung,you are not making progress.

Since I am not qualified to give you a lenghty explanation regarding this matters,I will sugest to you to attend Master Boc Nam Park semminars if you have a chance some day,he explains in detail about this subjet.

Keep on searching

VF

[razakdigital]

Count,

Spirituality is one's own relationship with their deity. Religion is organized spirituality. The difference is that with religion you "re lie" on someone for their interpretation of your deity. All versions of the bible are not right because the book has no exact timeline and too many contradictions. So the bible is not a good yardstick for this discussion. (Hey count we can take this debate on are a bible board)

I don't not believe that you need to know the 8 trigrams to know how to fight. Don't get me wrong you can teach someone how to parry a attack by saying you are doing heaven palm. But I can also teach the same person to parry a attack by just using "grinding palm" or "piercing palm". The job gets done regardless. Sometimes we have a tendency to make things more complex then they really are. Shoot -- a good Muay Thai fighter could probably beat 95% of the fighters up here (That includes me)...Muay Thai cat will not worry about theory but hard work and sweat. Does a trigram teach you how to take a blow from a opponent? I mean really...in a fight you will get hit...my senior brother hits me all the time and even though I get shots on him my ability to take some of the pain comes from practice not theory or philosophy. I mean Sun Lu Tang said it plainly -- practice practice practice...not talk talk talk...

To repeat again...if you want use the I-Ching to make you a better fighter its all good...I have no have beef on that ... but no one on this board can tell me you can't learn how to fight without using the I-Ching...to me (and again this is just my opinion) is nonsense. Remember that Pa Kua Chang was called many other names before it was Pa Kua Chang.

Again no has been able answer if the great ones ACTUALLY use the I-Ching in teaching and in fighting...most of my research has concluded that their biggest thing was -

Standing
Walking the circle
Body conditioning
Sparring
:) :) :) :) :) :)

[Scarletmantis]

No one has denied that a person can fight without I-Ching study/theory. As you point out, a Muay Thai fighter dosen't need I-Ching theory to kick some ass.

The question has been posted in the clearest terms I can think of, but I'll repeat it because I really want your opinion.

Can you Master Ba Gua without studying I-Ching?

Again I don't disagree on the issue of combat. Mastery means much more than just being a competent fighter. Dong Hai Chuan, Yin Fu, Cheng Ting Hua, Sun Lu Tang, these men are legends. Mere fighting ability cannot account for thier fame.

[count]

Just for the peoples information, I want to point out that the current world record holder for the past 5 consecutive years in Heavy weight, light heavy weight and one other weight class, in The Muay Thai boxing world chamionships in Bangkok was a kung fu student of Master Su Yu Chang. Master Su teaches Bagua, Baji, Piqua, and Praying mantis of the same lineage as our Grandmaster Liu Yun Chaio. I don't know if this is relevant. I know it is off topic. But what the hell. I thought I would throw it in.

You know the side I have been taking on the issue, but my opinion is you can master the skills of baguazhang without the theory of the i-ching. I just think it is easier with it. You can become a master musician with out being able to read a note of music too. But for us less gifted, every bit of knowledge helps. The I-ching is definately applicable to bagua.

Count
;)

[maoshan]

Count,
While your right in what your saying for the person of that mind set. What about the person that isn't moved that way. Still, a good person,
Just not preoccupid with saintly study. Martial arts, on the other hand, he has a passion.
Remember, the seeds of spiritual enlightment rest in all of us, it simply needs to be stimulated
and your perceptions would be changed.
The theories Are taoist, The methods are Taoist and buddist. Taught in thier purity they are used as tools for spititual enlightment.
So to simpify what I'm saying, if the system itself were already based on divine methods
and concrete theory, Diligent practice alone will bring enlightment. not on the scale you spoke of
but that person will walk with the Tao.

Scarletmantis
I want to answer your questions you asked earlier.
1. If a master can't explain the how's or why's
doesn't make him less a master than a teacher. If he's still unbeatable it just means he can't teach.
I can't remember at this moment, but one of Dong's student used to kill his students because he couln't explain the how's or why's. All of Dong's direct diciples were masters. He just coudn't teach.

2. The Yi Qing: It's valuable on the quest for life and understanding expressions of reality.
As far as Bagua is concerned, the I-Ching shows you changes in events in your surroundings. You see them as well, the Yi Qing points it out for you.
It's truly a tresure if you can truly connect to the hexagrams and walk the Tao.

RAF,
That was right on point. I used the wrong words i guess.
Just as we live in a Christian based idology the Chinese had thiers. All of us are aware passages from the bible weather were christian or not. That was way is was in China, Part of there every day life.

And again Scarletmantis:
You can master Bagua with out the Yi-Ching.

Study the Principles and Theories and apply them to yourself. If you train right and at lest had a good teacher to build a foundation on. It's possible.

Peace
Maoshan
.

[razakdigital]

Why do I say this well...There are two perspectives - Fighting - I don't believe you need the I-Ching because the book is an Oracle ... does this Oracle help you in taking a blow from any opponent? Again if you think that the I-Ching, Bible, or Quran can elevate your Pa Kua Chang then its all good...but I don't agree with anyone insisting that you need to know a book of prophecy to learn how to fight with a martial art....

Again we are going back and for with what I'm going to write now...most of these cats were illiterate...how the h*** could they read the I-Ching...that's a big book my friends...they might have gotten the information orally but I doubt someone sat there and read the I-Ching like a school teacher to a child...


I do believe if you want to get into the spiritual side of the Pa Kua it's relevant. But as an African if I choose the I-Ching as my guide with Pa Kua it would have to come from an African perspective because I'm not Chinese. I cannot and will never have their essence.

I will end this by stating that when I go to Beijing on Jul 2 I will see noted Pa Kua Chang scholar - Kang Ge Wu and believe me I will raise this question and I will bring back some answers. Where else can you find these answers but from the source?

[count]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Where else can you find these answers but from the source? [/quote]

A direct quote from the I-ching.

:D :D :D

[razakdigital]

May I also add I like the Book of the Five Rings and the Art of War by Sun Tzu for fighting...

[wujidude]

Razak:

What techniques do you use when fighting with these books? Do you have to oil and sharpen the covers regularly?

**** it's hard to keep this tongue outta my cheek.

Cheers.

PS--Hope you and your bagua brothers have a safe and fruitful trip to Beijing. You're gonna be sweatin, man, but be careful drinking the water there. I really look forward to hearing how it goes and what you learned. Best wishes for a good time.

[razakdigital]

We can debate back and forth about I-Ching and everybody has his or her own opinion. When you touch hands with someone you better have skills because there will be no debate. Bottom line, Pa Kua Chang consist of circle walking and from this you develop and manifest the energies of the universe. If you can't follow the principles that one must follow in circle walking - then what’s the use of understanding the I-Ching? You have to build internal energy before you can do anything. The foundation of Pa Kua is Nei Gung and later you can go to the I-Ching. The bottom line is you need I-Ching to learn how to fight and you don't need the I-Ching to reach a higher level of spirituality.

My Sifu had me had spar with cats that knew the I-Ching and had mad years of experience over me. The cats couldn’t even defend themselves...where was their trigram palms then? You have to have skillzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..... That experience gave me confidence that I'm learning real martial arts....

We do sitting and standing mediation to reach the Tao...We do understand the I-Ching and we don't study to the point of fooling ourselves...We are Africans so we study the ways of Ifa and we use the energies of the Dogon for astral quest within ourselves...Unlike the I-Ching the Ifa tells us what is likely to happen if we do not change our circumstances. Not only does it forecast the future it gives us an opportunity to change it.

Power comes from our ancestors, how can you worship someone’s else philosophies…you will get power but you won’t get greatness…true spirituality gives thanks to your ancestors and follow their philosophies and theories…

If you want to follow someone else's ways that cool with us - but you will never get their essence.

[Scarletmantis]

You all have been admirably courageous in putting yourselves (and your opinions) on the line.
I really feel like most folks have been dancing around this issue. Maybe it's because of all that circle walking!

Anyhow, I am busy attending to another personal crisis (This is "the art of change" REAL TIME boys!), so I won't be posting for awhile.

Hope to see posts on your trip to China Mr. Boxers (you lucky dog)!