Non Partisan Choy Li Fut thread!

[Ben Gash]

So, what you working on?
I'm currently re-exploring my basics as well as developing my more recent skills.
To the former end I am extensively going over Cheong Kuen. This is a form I have a love/hate relationship with. It's packed with great technique and principles, but it is huge with tons of repetition, making it something of a ballbreaker. I'm going through it, breaking it down into sections, paying attention to my stance changes and hand positions, working on my alignment and power generation. I can really feel the positive effects this is having on my Kung Fu.
To the latter end I am working on getting to grips with Siu Bot Gwa Kuen. This is the diametric opposite of Cheong Kuen, half the length with little repetition, but it's still a ball buster :D Lot's of ups and downs and back and forths, making it a gruelling workout, as well as the high level of technical difficulty. I'm loving it though :D
What are you guys exploring with your training?

[hskwarrior]

are you talking about lau bun's cheong kuen?

if you are, don't worry, every single lau bun disciple is still trying to dissect the cheong kuen.

let me ask you. after doing a double kwa choy, then you break. right?

what are the things about the break have you discovered.

see, regardless if you and i get along, but you practice our clf, i am happy to discuss how we use it. trust me, i taught one of lau bun's students, and they (including DFW) only see it as lau bun taught it. sometimes you have to look outside the box.

i mean, lau bun's cheung certainly does have a lot of repititous moves, but there are sooooooo many great practicle techniques in it.

we believe that if a student of ours were to ever quit CLF but wanted to keep some forms to practice on his own, we would tell them to keep cheung kuen, sup ji kau da, and um ying. those three sets of ours (technique wise) are incredible, and geared toward fighting.

so, don't let a grudge stop you. let's discuss the cheung kuen.

hsk

[Ben Gash]

Well, I recently discovered I'd been doing it wrong for six years! :D I'd been doing what was basically a small Gwa Chui, as opposed to a much more subtle movement. I really need to get together with one of my Sidai and work some applications off of it.

[hskwarrior]

to maybe smooth out the waters,

you can ask me on my opinion on some of the moves in it.

we can actually have a civil discussion for once.

anyways, in cheung kuen, anytime we do a double kwa choy, it's usually followed by a break. when i say break at first we used it as a break from a grab.

but, after more evolution came around, we started seeing the break differently. in our school we use it as a break, but also short pek choy which sort of curves outwards.

(combination of the sow gerk using the pek choy, and the push hand at the same time. it forms a small curve or even a small "L " shape pattern. do you see how the "L" comes down and turns to the right? same thing with the break in cheung kuen.

what about the circles, and circle punches? do you use the cork screw or yum chop? do you understand the circles?

let's keep this going dude.

[hskwarrior]

this is cool.....

okay check this out..........in cheung kuen there's a section where your left hand is blocking your lower left side. turning to your right, you grab, twist and break his arm, circle spear hand (or snake fist) kick step down chop choy with the left hand.

now in say ping ma, left hand circle punches, right leg steps forward while doing what we call the windmill block then chop choy. you do this 3 times switching sides.

what do you guys call that wind mill block? or do you guys have that? you should, i've seen it in the older video footage i have.

[CLFNole]

I have been working on baat mo kuen. Our version (Lee Koon Hung) is quite different from others I have seen. My kung fu brother and I think that the name could be wrong but we are not sure. Our version is extremely long (longer the sup gee kow da) and has a lot of jumping, spinning, double kick combinations and just moves in general not seen in most of our sets.

It is very challenging and considered to be our most difficult to perform due to the length and challenging elements. It is definately more suited for a younger player and at 37 years of age the set really pushes me. I like to work on this set now to really get a feel for it and I also really work on staff and spear sets with a primary emphasis on dai hung kay and sheung garp dan for staff as they have great applications within them and some northern spear sets I learned because northern spear tends to be a bit more challenging than southern spear. :D

[Ben Gash]

The way I've always understood it the circle is a fist style Poon Kiu. I do Yum Tsop for the punch.
As far as I know the block is called Chiu Sau (I have no idea what that means though). I was coaching my students in sparring the other week and explained to one of them that they needed more forward intent in their bridges. To demonstrate this I (live) did a right-left Chiu Sau combination which to my surprise completely span my opponent around and set him up for a choke. I was even more surprised when I repeated it twice.
CLFnole, you know when I used to do 5 ancestors the teachers used to go "well, that longarm stuff is all well and good, but you won't be able to do it when you're older". I'm increasingly coming to realise what nonsense that is. My Sifu is 50 and he does a tornado kick from lotus position better than I do!! I've yet to learn our Bak Mo Kuen, it does look like a seriously challenging form though. Props to you. :cool:

[CLFNole]

Personally age is just a number. Although I am 37 I actually weigh less than when I graduated from college. I have a small frame (5'8" 145-150 lbs.) so I haven't had that much trouble maintaining my kung fu as I have gotten older. The only thing I notice is my recovery time is longer and I have to work extra hard on endurance, other than that it is better because I have a far better understanding of my CLF than when I was 25 or so.

I haven't seen Siu Baat Kwa and would be interested to know what it is like. Of the baat kwa sets I know: Mui Fah Baat Kwa, Baat Kwa Sum and Yee Jong Baat Kwa. I haven't seen any others but was also intrigued by the hung yan baat kwa kuen (bear man baat kwa). At was speaking with Sifu Chan Pui (I call him si baat) and he was close to a sifu that passed away a few years ago who was well known for this set. Would have been nice to learn it and I am not sure many teach this one (except probably Chan Sifu).

[Ben Gash]

I know Yee Jong Bot Gwa and Siu Bot Gwa. They're similar but different if you know what I mean ;) Whereas Yee Jong is quite direct in it's approach, and has lots of continuous flurries, Siu Bot Gwa is a lot more 1,2, step back, 3 forwards, 4 come around 5 if you know what I mean. I know that in high level northern stuff the "small" form is more the distilled essence, and I could certainly believe that of Siu Bot Gwa.

[hskwarrior]

exactly.....mr ben gash.

that is one helluva technique the chiu sau as you call it. like i said earlier we call it wind mill, and the opposite direction (downwards) reverse wind mill.

now what do you guys call the reverse wind mill. its just the opposite of the chiu sau.

but one of the secrets to executing a good Joi Yau Chiu Sau is in the stepping into the "T" horse or din ji ma. as you step into him the front leg slams into him knocking him off balance. mixed with the chop choy, it's hella effective.

now, when you do the cirle punch with the yum chop, do you turn it over and strike, or do you do like we do......we only turn on impact with the stomach. as soon as the fist lands you twist into yum chop and tear up his insides.

see.....we have a lot more in common. don't let that bother you.

thanks for the exchange.

[Fu-Pow]

Great topic.

I'm currently taking a break from training with Mak Sifu and working on all of the things that I have learned. Last count I knew 27 hand and weapon forms so I feel like I have more than enough forms at present. The last form I learned was Left Hand Spear.

We don't spend a lot of time breaking the forms down in class so I'm training with some of my kung fu brothers outside of Mak Sifu's school and working on conditioning, applications and sparring.

In addition, my kung fu brother and I are starting a class through the University of Washington "Experimental College" in July. So we are working on our curriculum to modernize certain elements of it and make other parts more traditional.

For example, we are working on implementing a "rotating curriculum" which is a modern device for training. We are also adding some Taiji/Chi Gung (from the Chen Taiji/XingYi mix that I also study) at the end of class as a cool down which is probably more of a traditional thing.

FP

[hskwarrior]

ben,

what are your favorite aspects of cheung kuen?

in the other branches have you seen the double kwa choy done the way we do it?

also, have you explored everything about the cirle itself? that one circle is great to block two punches.

[Ben Gash]

You pretty much have to twist on a Yum Tsop, or else it wont have any power.

[CLFNole]

I think the thing you are referring to (what Frank calls double windmill) we call sheung poon kiu. To break it down we also say dat jeurng for the initial opening slap palm with the back of the hand followed by cum jeurng then loi yum chop choy.

Yeah to really use it you definately want to twist into the yum chop choy especially just prior to or during impact.

[hskwarrior]

so clf nole,

you guys actually use the twisting upon impact to cause the most damage, not just turn the fist over?

that's cool.

in a real situation i once made a guy throw up after hitting him with the yum chop.

nasty.

[thedoodey]

love the thread! now fill me in on how to improve my gwa cup fahn jong, i tend to lose my center of balance when i go into a twisted horse. also when sparring against larger clf players wat's best tactic on facing ones jinormous gwa choy say 250lb to 150lb : P, i've tried bridging their gwa arm it works but trying to see if there are more efficient ways to go

thanks fellas : )

[Ben Gash]

If you want to improve your centre of balance then I'm afraid there's only one answer : stancework :( If you having difficulty when you go into a twist horse, then you need to develop a stronger twist horse, and also work on moving form twist horse to square horse and so on.
As for the sparring, there are always only really 4 options when you face an opponent, fowards, back, inside and outside.
If you want to go forward, you can dart in as he begins his attack, driving an outwards bridge into his upper arm to rob the technique of power.
If you want to go backwards, then it's a simple matter of getting out the way and then coming back in over the top.
Coming inside is always the riskiest strategy, this is why Noi Lim Sau is a high skill, but it does put you at a huge advantage if you pull it off. You need to especially careful if the Gwa is coming diagonally rather than straight down. One advantage of this is that if you try to pull a Gwa inside it massively loses power. Once you're inside your opponent is nicely opened up for you whatever you want to hit him with.
Coming outside has the advantage that it's hard for your opponent to turn and meet you, which allows you to throw a lot of the big power techniques, or to clinch and throw.

[hskwarrior]

i love the inside because i'm a big solid little guy. usually not too many people will go inside.

I like outside because regardless of what he throws, you move to his outside he has to re-adjust and re-think his attack because you now changed directions on him. that's the great thing about being on the outside.

but i love to open people up and blast off.

before I learned CLF, i always had a proble with someone covering up when you're striking them. all you were doing was punching his arms. but the Kwa Choy is a great way to destroy someone's defenses when not trying to get their faces crushed.

another thing i love is........using the front hand to deflect someon's punch while stepping into them where my thigh is right under their hamstring. while deflecting his punch going one way, i would be going to reverse with a horizontal kwa choy to his midsection. if you don't know what i mean, it happens like a scissor move with your hands.

[thedoodey]

last night, i was with my sihing when i noticed something, while in my "sei ping ma" with the right side of my body facing him using a right hand chin nah, i noticed i was exposed to a round house to the face, so i asked him to do one, and long and behold chin ji to the inner thigh.

my question arises here, to my clf brothers, have you encountered any type of kicks that were difficult to guard or troublesome while using clf, and how did you resolve these issues.

-"i bring peace with a closed fist"