How can we grow the CLF community?

[yutyeesam]

If you're a CLF player like I am, you'll agree that we have an incredible art. Unfortunately, we are way too divided. It's nice that there are things like Taiji Legacy that bring CMAs of all types together...

But I think something exclusive to CLF would be great. An international CLF conference would be amazing. Nothing but CLF all weekend long. No one school/lineage could put it together though, it would have to have CLF instructors from different schools on the board of directors.

If we can unite and organize, and let the diversity of CLF strengthen us rather than divide us, people could see our art and just how powerful it is. Right now, it looks like a bunch of fragmented cults pining for their piece of the pie.

Maybe it's a pipe dream, but maybe our generation could organize it. I wouldn't expect our Sifus' generation to do something like this. Joe Keit said that our generation needs to be the example and help bring cohesiveness.

I'm still in the process of building my school, but maybe Spring 2008, if any of you think this idea would be worth a shot, could get on board with me for this.

A Choy Lay Fut Conference. We could start small. Any interest in this at all?

-123

[Fu-Pow]

That's a great idea YutYeeSam. Unfortunately, in the CLF ranks there are lots of personal politics and allegiances. However, we represent a different generation of CLF and therefore maybe we can "mend those fences" so to speak.

Those that would divide people are wicked, we must uproot and expose them and bring more unity to CLF, worldwide.

FP

[hskwarrior]

The first step is to accept each others history. Once that happens, we don't have to take a look at history twice. In my belief, what should happen is that today, on the choy lee fut mantle of all schools there should be when it comes to our ancestors Chan Heung, a representation of Jeong Yim, and Tam Sam....not just chan heung, or jeong yim or tam sam. ALL 3.

today as i see it, choy lee fut has three branches to choose from, and we know what they are. What should happen is that ALL the current sifu's (not the older ones unless they wish to participate in our efforts) should begin to learn stuff from all three branches, teach material from all three branches, and spread the ideas of all three branches throughout the whole of CLF.

As teachers, we can do CLF a great justice by teaching a total choy lee fut. as the current teachers we are the "NEW" pioneers, the new developers of this system. CLF's future is in the hands of the present day and current generation sifu's. it's up to us.

As you all know, and by the tat's on my chest, I am a Hung Sing man. but I have been planning to combine some of the material from all three branches and forge them into one set. For example, just for the conversation's sake. If i were to take sections from Chan Family, Hung SIng, and Buk SIng Ping Kuen's and link them together i would call it "SAM GA PING KUEN."

the sets that i think are exclusive to all branches of clf are Ping Kuen, Sup Gee, Kou Da. All three branches have these sets in it, although each branch teaches a different one, not one of the sets would be the same. so you take sections from each one and put them together. For me, i would call it Modern Day Choy Lee Fut, or something. All the main sets would have SAM GA in front of it. while at the same time we could teach a slew of stick sets, spear forms, and so on that is a creation of the Choy Lee Fut set before us.

Also, i think there has to be some type of panel consisting of ALL three branches who agree with the new developement of Choy Lee Fut. Pesonally I agree that Choy Lee Fut needs a saving. But if none of us try to impliment the ideas, then we are doing nothing but "breathing up all the white mayans ayair".

seriously, are there people out there willing to take clf to the next level?

I know i am. that doesn't mean you will lose yourself by trying to save CLF from internal disorder. Although i may teach a chan family form, i am still a Hung Sing guy. always will be. but for the greater good i will teach material from all 3 branches. that way we can become a great family again.

what do you think?

[yutyeesam]

Well said Frank and Fu-Pow.

I totally agree that we should have people from as many lineages as possible on the board.

And exactly right Fu-pow, I think it is up to our generation to start showing some real leadership. I'm 34, and I know a lot of senior students who read this forum are in my age group doing CLF for 10+ years.

I think it's time for us to help bring unity. I'll tell you one guy I really admire on here - Ben Gash. He's a student of DFW, who's been a controversial figure in the CLF world, yet Mr. Gash is very diplomatic, and is willing to hear others' views and learn from other CLF people.

We are the future of CLF, and we have a responsibility to take it to that next level. Our Sifu's did a fantastic job putting it on the map, but, we have to become better than our Sifus. We are more savvy with the internet, videos, communication, presentation, and speaking abilities.

I wholeheartedly agree with you Frank, there must be a genuine acknowledgement of each others' histories. It doesn't matter if you don't agree with it. There is such a thing called "agree to disagree" and still remain friends, brothers, family.

If we move on and take the attitude of, "I don't agree with your version of history, but I respect that that is what you were taught and what you believe, and I won't denigrade you for it. Now let's get together and take CLF to the next level."

What would be cool is to have a bunch of CLF seminars all weekend long from instructors of different schools. We can all really learn a lot from each other.

What CLF seminar topics would interest you?

-123

[Eddie]

CLF is spread all accross the world, so that will mean people will have to travel, and that cost allot of money. getting us visas are also not the easiest thing in the world if you come from certain countries, and I know for a fact that people comming from China has a bit of a problem getting us visas.

where would this meeting be? I'd reccomend my own country cause the exchange rate is favorable to everyone else, but my suggestiong is mainly a selfish one obviously :rolleyes:

[Ben Gash]

:o :o :o
I don't know what to say :o
I'm not sure about the idea of integrated forms. I think that would ****genise everything, rather than celebrating the specific flavours we all have. Besides which, the different form structures are only the surface difference, the real difference is how we do Poon Kiu, Chuen Nau, Cheung Ngan Chui etc.
We need a way to at once celebrate our differences AND our similarities.

[hskwarrior]

The way I see it, it has to start somewhere.

If a group of us got together, exchanged sets between schools and taught all of each other's material....spread one complete history or CLF (no separate branches) we can set the ball rolling.

For example.....let's say that an agreement between the schools involved teach a certain amount of Hung Sing Sets, CHan Family Sets. and Buk Sing Kwoon sets. Meanwhile, teaching your regular curriculum, regardless of what branch you are from.

Like i said, if we.... I mean you, me, and whoever in the future willing to participate in the unification of Choy Lee Fut......if we all got together whether in person or via email......we can get the ball rolling.

If this were to get started, and we started an organization of all choy lee fut, what name would you call it. Choy lee fut union? World Choy Lee Fut Union?
the United Choy Lee Fut Federation?

I mean let's stop talking about this, and let's see who's really for the unification of Choy Lee Fut. is this a pipe dream, or does anyone see this really happening?

I know I am.

[hskwarrior]

See, when i meant intergrated forms i mean that's what I would do within my own school.

But if we all showed some unity and willing to learn each other's sets and then taught sets from each branch as they were taught in their individual branches.

example.

Beginner Level......
chan family sets
Hung Sing Kwoons sets
Buk Sing Kwoon sets

Intermediate Level.......

same thing

Advanced Level

same thing


But in regards to integrating sets from each branch is just my own idea for how i'd put a 3 family set together. IF i do this, i would only share it with those who were interested. If no one was interested, at least i'd still practice it.

but how many of us agree something needs to be down now?

and are you guys willing to be part of history?

[yutyeesam]

I could really see something like this happening. And like I said, it has to be our generation that executes this. We can't rely on our Sifu's generation to take on a task like this, because as Fu-Pow said, it's just way too political to do it.

As far as what we wanted to do with the organization, that would be a matter for discussion.

So let me propose this. The first and foremost thing here is communication. Do you all know about skype? If not, download it (it's free) at http://www.skype.com
Skype lets you do live conference calls through your computer totally free. Just make sure you have a microphone and speakers (or headphones) for your computer.

We should schedule skype conferences to discuss the basics of what this organization is, what it can do, what it is not, etc.

Does anyone on here have skype?

-123

[yutyeesam]

See, when i meant intergrated forms i mean that's what I would do within my own school.

But if we all showed some unity and willing to learn each other's sets and then taught sets from each branch as they were taught in their individual branches.

example.

Beginner Level......
chan family sets
Hung Sing Kwoons sets
Buk Sing Kwoon sets

Intermediate Level.......

same thing

Advanced Level

same thing


But in regards to integrating sets from each branch is just my own idea for how i'd put a 3 family set together. IF i do this, i would only share it with those who were interested. If no one was interested, at least i'd still practice it.

but how many of us agree something needs to be down now?

and are you guys willing to be part of history?

I like this idea, except I would execute it differently. I'd give a foundation of one family's system first. After having that flavor very solidly, for those who want to explore CLF deeper, break out sets from the different families. A solid foundation with one branch's quirks and intracacies is probably the best to start with. After a few years of going through the "core" of the curriculum, get introduced to another lineage.

[hskwarrior]

I don't.

But, I'm up for that. And totally agree that it has to be our generation, and our sifu's are too old fashioned, stubborn, and don't want others telling you how to do anything in their school.

Regardless if this thing only had a hand full of people (including if it's only 3 of us) it's gotta start somewhere.

It's obvious the need to organize Choy Lee Fut for today's society here in America, and around the world. When others see that there is a group of people out there fully supporting the COMPLETE choy lee fut lineage as opposed to individual branches, others may want to participate.

But i do have to ask this. Is this all talk, or do others truly want peace in Choy Lee Fut's middle east. How many here are truly willing to participate? sifufrank@gmail.com is my email for those interested so we can take this off the forum and actually get the ball rolling.

[Ben Gash]

Of course the other question is if we do will our Sifu ever speak to us again..........
Ever the problem with Kung Fu :(

[hskwarrior]

i see where you're coming from, but you have to realize there is one evil out there.

"jealousy".

"why is that family's stuff being taught first?"

It would have to be approached where no one would get their toes stepped on.

The way i envision it, when all three families stuff are taught at the same levels, the cuts out the chances of another division.

that's not to say that future students might not say I like practicing chan family stuff, or hung sing or buk sing's stuff for this reason.....but if it's all taught at the same time, who can complain? the student will choose what works best for him.

Since the 10 seeds of CLF are basically the same within all branches of CLF, then we wouldn't have to worry about that. Basically all CLF basics are the same all the way around. the only real differences is in 1) how you use it, 2) sets.

I would want to see a student tested and have to know how all three branches use lets say a Sow Choy, and why do they use it that way. And do that at all levels.

[hskwarrior]

ben,

why would our sifu's start talking to us? I would hope that they would be proud of us for trying to unite and preserve CLF and all it's integrity, and respect us for cutting out the drama.

The way I see it, is like this. IF this thing were to get off the ground, and we got our respect for what we're doing........then when some one says to us "who is your sifu" then that can only make our sifu's look even better because we are doing a great justice for CLF, and give our sifu's much face in the mean time.

only way i see them hating us, is if we ruin our schools, and sifu's names.

but with the right mindset, how could we?

[Shaolindynasty]

It's called the International Choy Lay fut Kung Fu Federation of America.

Tat Wong is the President and Sam Ng is the treasurer

There are some others on the board of varying lineages that I can't remeber right now. There was talk at one time about a standard competition form. I haven't heard anything about it recently.

It seems the politics are more of an issue here than in the real world

[CLFNole]

I remember when this was formed some years ago, if I remember correctly it was at the 2001 Taji Legacy Tournament. Nothing has ever come of it, which isn't suprising.

I think the concept of trying to unify the CLF community is nice but unrealistic. The bottom line is sifus and students are friendly with each other but ultimately each school wants to be more successful than the other. Each sifu more well known than the next, some may say otherwise but ... I have my doubts.

I think everyone should be proud of whatever lineage they come from and whatever they have learned. Practice hard and long until you truly understand your style then pass it on to people who are deserving of carrying on with the art. I don't find the need to combine curriculums of various branches, teach what you know and if your not happy with what you have go out and learn more be it from another sifu or another practitioner.

[yutyeesam]

Unfortunately, I think you're right CLFNole. I don't think our generation is ready to demonstrate leadership on this scale yet. One day, though.

[hskwarrior]

Well,

If None Of You Who Are Sifu's Are Willing To Be The Start Of It, I Guess I Will Be The Only One. See, I Think The Other Associations Were Less Of A Unity Thing As Opposed To A Controlling Thing. And Other Sifu's Don't Want To Allow Others To Have A Say In What They Teach, How They Teach And So On.

In This Instance, I Was Hoping That An Associaion Would Be More Of A Family Oriented Thing Where A Group Of Us Shoot Towards The Promotion Of A More Unified Choy Lee Fut.

The Way I See It, Even If One Or Two Were Involved And Actually Doing Something, Then Eventually A Few Years Down The Line More Would Join Because They Would See The Efforts We Were Putting Forth To Unify Our Great System.

If We Just Let It Be, Then There Will Always Be This Drama. Someone Has To Start Somewhere.

See, People Of Tat's Generation Are Still Considered The Old School. The Sifu's Of The Current Generation Is People Like Us Who Are Dealing With The Now, And The Now Is When We Have Our Big Issues That Many Of Us Feel Needs To Be Resolved.

I Didn't Trust The Agenda Of Tat's And Others Clf Associations, I Feel That When One Is Formed Out Of The Need To Unify Choy Lee Fut Is When Clf Will Prosper. And Until Then, You Guys Are Just Going To Let The Issues Keep On Into The Next Generation. Don't Think It Stops Here. It Will Only Get Worse And Worse As Time Goes By, Because Without The Proper Leadership, Those From The Individual Branches Will Continue To Battle.

[Shaolindynasty]

First, what problems?

Second, it was "tat's" org. he was voted pres by the other sifu. Also what exactly would they control with that org?

So what your saying is we shouldn't trust our elders but we should trust you? It seems to me that you just want to be the head of an org.

[CLFNole]

To me the best way to grow the CLF community is to work hard as a sifu and develop your own skills first and foremost. Over time you become more known and some people will listen. At this stage of the game forming a group would be like a tree falling in the woods with no one around. Does it make a noise and does anyone really care?

Organizations, meetings and conferences are nice but rarely accomplish anything worthy of note. It would be far better to produce better students to carry on the CLF tradition. There is way too much talking and politics now why add to the madness when it is much better to produce good CLF students.

[yutyeesam]

Producing good CLF students hopefully is everybody's priority. I was thinking our generation should maybe start thinking of how to produce *more* good students. You know, working together to try to make CLF more visible. Let's face it, if GM Lee Koon Hung or Master Tat Mau Wong were just focused on producing great CLF students, then they wouldn't have bothered to create associations to reach out to many many people. They would have stayed inside a very small, elite circle, and not really care too much to grow their associations.

I think they've proved that you can have an elite team of CLF superstars, while still being very very accessable to the public. If it weren't for their leadership and organizational initiative to expand, CLF may not be as well known as it is.

I was thinking that perhaps it's our generation's turn to take their accomplishments with their leadership to another level. But I think our generation is either too passively insular or too hot-headed to get anything done. Maybe the leadership initiatives will skip our generation, while we carry on the status quo and politics of our previous generation.

But maybe not. Maybe a leader will emerge.

-123

[CLFNole]

I am not saying our generation cannot do this I am just not sure if now this the proper time. I feel people need to develop more as sifu's first then worry about things like this. In this way more people would be taken seriously.

[yutyeesam]

That I agree with. But I think given the way our CLF community interacts on this forum, it should be something to keep in mind for the future, as we are developing our skills. If we don't keep this in mind, then this forum and its current ways continues to be the face and the representation of what our larger CLF community is like.

-123

[CLFNole]

This forum is a very, very small representation of the CLF community. There are hundreds of sifus out there and thousands upon thousands of students.

To tell you the truth sifu wasn't big on groups and organizations and once told me he joined them to keep people from bugging him. Remember he was interested in making a name for himself and his CLF while spreading CLF in general. This is the conflict any organization would have becuase ultimately those who teach for a living have to be concerned with themself first and foremost.

I own my own business and teach to help out my sifu. The way I think of CLF is different from him. With so many people having different reasons for what they do it would be hard to organize.

Spread CLF through teaching, if you gain fame along with way that can only help the style. Push students to compete in forms and fighting. We have a student at the school who recently did very well fighting a MMA guy. Doing things like this will not only help CLF but kung fu in general.

[hskwarrior]

Shaolin Dynasty,

You Can Back Down A Little, No One Came At You Wrong. So Where's This Fire In You Coming From?

Did I Say Not To Trust Anyone?

Did I Say Anything About Being The Head Of Anything But My Own School?

I Can Answer That For You. No I Didn't.

All I'm Saying Is That The Current Generation, The Ones Feeling The Affects Of This Lineage War Are The Ones (including Myself) Should Start Somewhere.

So When You Start Making Comments The Way You Are, You're Projecting Some Ill And Negative Emotions. Did You Have A Bad Day Or Something?

All These Organizations By "our Sifu's, Si-sooks, And Sigung's" What Are They Doing? What Has Tat's Org Done So Far For Choy Lee Fut?

There Are No Existing And Active Organizations That I Know Of In The Choy Lee Fut World That All 3 Branches Participate In. If So, Let Me Know Who It Is, And Tell Me Something That They've Done To Honor "all" Clf Branches. I've Seen Some Start, But Where Are They Now? Where's Tat Now?

Is Tat Even Doing Clf Anymore? I Thought He Went Into Restaurant Business.

So What Are You Saying Then?

[yutyeesam]

Push students to compete in forms and fighting. We have a student at the school who recently did very well fighting a MMA guy. Doing things like this will not only help CLF but kung fu in general.

Agreed. Maybe one day we can be the ones who creates these venues for the students to compete in.

[hskwarrior]

Now, Our Elders Have Done Nothing Significant For The Betterment Of All Choy Lee Fut. Associations Have Been Set Up, But Nothing Has Really Been Done About Nothing.

And I Guess We Can Say The Same About Our Generation As Well. Wow.

This Is The Future Of Choy Lee Fut As A Whole, Huh?

Or, I Guess That Instead Of Promoting Unity Amongst Choy Lee Fut, I Should Go Back To Pumping The Hung Sing Lineage Only Again, Right?

I Didn't Really Expect Much From The Hand Full Size Of Clf People Who Participate Here On The Forum. But, I May Still Work At This Within My Own School. Then I Hope They Will Pass That On To Their Students And So On.


But Fock Peace Within Clf, Let's Keep Up The War. Who Really Cares Right?

[hskwarrior]

Clf Nole,

I See Where You Are Coming From. But, It's The Fresh New Sifu's Who Are Willing To Re-shape Themselves In The Honor Of All Clf. Chan Heung Wasn't Accepted In The Beginning When Clf First Came Out. It Took Time To Become What It Is Today.

Having The Responsibility Of The Name Of Choy Lee Fut In Honor Of All Three Families On Your Head May Shape Up And Develop Some Great Sifu's.
All That's Needed Is For People To Meet, Create An Agenda, And How To Accomplish It.

No One Said It Had To Be Formed And Officiall Right Off The Bat. The Whole Thing Will Be A Constant Learning Process. Much The Way Chan Heung, Jeong Yim, And Tam Sam Did With Their Own Gung Fu.

But The Key Is To Start Now, Show That There Are People Who Support This Movement, And The Later Generations Will Have Something For Go On. The Drama We Could Erase Today Could Greatly Benefit The Future Generations Who May Never Hear Of This Lineage War.

That Is The Dream I Have. Contrary To Shaolin Dynasty's Perception Of Me, I Don't Have My Eyes Set On Becoming The Head Of Anything. I Just Want To Be A Part Of History In The Making, Since I Do Have A Strong Passion For Clf.

So What's Wrong With That Shaolin Dynasty?

[CLFNole]

Me personally, I am not into pow wow's and get togethers I just don't have the time or the desire. Organizations are just fluff and hot air for the most part and get little accomplished since deep down no one wants to have someone else tell them what to do.

I don't feel affected by the so-called lineage wars because they have nothing to do with me. I think it is blown way out of proportion on the small scale that is this forum (a small fish in a big pond). I am concerned with my own training for that is what makes me truly happy if all I did was teach I would stop completely.

To me all of martial arts will get dwindled down more and more as the generations go on since there are fewer and fewer students that really care.

[hskwarrior]

its a sad sad thing.

it's true, our sifus', including mine would never let anyone else tell him or them how to run their school.

well, the best i can do then is just keep up the evolution of our clf going, while you guys do yours. we can say now, there is no peace in our future as long as lineage plays a part in this.

in one sense, i guess you can say there will always be this divide amongst our families.

however, lineage shouldn't get in the way of evolution, and clf has evolved into what it is now....unfortunately it's fragmented beyond repair.

[CLFNole]

For many of us lineage doesn't really have any direct effect on us. We all have a lineage that we are proud of and it generally ends there. I know people from various lineages and we get along just fine. I think it is something that has been blown way out of proportion into something bigger than it is. We all need to realize that this forum is small scale and in no way, shape or form as any really bearing on what goes on the CLF or kung fu world.

[Shaolindynasty]

I agree with CLFnole 100% on this topic so far.

HSKwarrior- I just wonder why you are so suspicious of the the previous org.? Is it bcause you feel your branch wasn't well reped? Why not just contact them directly and join to help. Starting a new association won't do anything but cause another divide. Have you ever stopped to think that the things you are doing for unity may be doing more to hurt the community you want to help? Just because you mean well dosen't mean you are doing well.

That's all I'm saying, nothing personal

[hskwarrior]

shaolin dynasty,

I only have reservations because certain sifu on that board or more on the lines of business men, when i've only dealt with non-commercial sifu's in my life.

my branch wasn't rep'd because my sifu isn't the type of sifu that likes to be told what to do with his own school. He is of the old school chinatown mentality about not bringing too much attention. He considers gettig attention a form of bragging, and thats not his nature.

to tell you the truth, you already know that our school is the oldest here in the states. we don't feel the need to go looking for approval from other schools. we were here first. but that's neither here nor there.

Professor Lau Bun's school has always remained in the background for decades. it is because of me, and my sifu that we are reaching out to the world to let them know although we don't communicate much, we're still here, and we support our clf brothers. that's the whole reason why we aren't out in the publics eye like DFW, and Tat Mau Wong and others. we've always been more of a private group and felt the need to join organizations.

I myself am interested in joining organizations to preserve our heritage here in america. my sifu isn't the type to go out there like i am. so what ever i do is always in honor of him and our school.

[hskwarrior]

if i am promoting all three lineages of choy lee fut instead of just the chan family of choy lee fut how am i hurting clf at all?

arguing with each other over the history is the biggest problem as i see it.

but aside from the chan family of clf, hung sing and buk sing have made contributions (great ones) and have separate histories that aside from this forum no one really knows about. I'm sure Tam Sam's people want his memory and legacy preserved for future generations.

Jeong Yim's people are the same way. we have "our story" which directly relates to Jeong Yim and his lineage which is different to that of chan heung. its when others try to say we are lying, or forces others to stop paying attention to us by redirecting everyone's focus back to chan heung. all the while the other two branches are kicked to the curb.

that is why i've come to realize until there is some real form of unity in clf, there will always be a chan famiy version of clf, a fut san hung sing version of clf and a buk sing version of clf. with such major differences between each branch can we ever as a whole family enjoy "real" unity?

[CLFNole]

It is all CLF no matter how you slice it. There will always be different versions of anything, but what is wrong with that? To have unity all you need is to respect that each side has their own history and their own way of doing things. You don't have to have the various branches agree on any history just respect that people can believe whatever they want.

That will help with unity.

[hskwarrior]

the first step is to just allow everyone to have their history, don't argue about it, because it will only cause more drama. encourage others not to argue about it.

aside from that, i'm sure that if all three branches got together and had an in depth interaction with each others, i'm sure great things could come from that. everyone would learn something new.

for instance how many of you know about the hung sing fu sau? i'm sure someone will say they already heard of it, but we only learned of this recently because there is an old old hung sing/buk sing guy in deep deep village areas, that teaches the fu sau. everyone i've come across had no idea and now has change their outlook on the technique.

so, one day, we all should get together, and share. yeah thats the word.....share.;)