Long Range VS Short Range CLF

[k-no]

Without regards to lineage and such.... I prefer to play my CLF long range. It usually surprises my opponent and bridges the gap in a way that most would not expect, it is very deceptive that way. In fact this is what began my CLF study, I was already seasoned in Kajukenbo and was interested in sparring a friend who was a CLF player. Shorter than I, I was getting hit with shots out of nowhere when he seemed to be 10 feet away just a second ago. I was dumbfounded and was planning to just supplementing my art and ended up making CLF a core style with Kajukenbo getting pushed to the background (kept my kicks and defensive stances).

I have and will continue to study Western and Thai boxing, and frankly I find that the basics (and most important) aspects of these stand up arts have very low training overhead. Even the Wing Tsun my sifu had taught seemed a bit more practical then playing CLF short range, and we even supplemented our CLF with some variation of Wing Tsun trapping, albeit with charp chuis.

I value CLF the most in melee situations where I can just swing away and have a high percentage of hitting someone from a distance (and I have used this thank God without hitting anyone in my party in the process). It just seems to me that kinesthetically, in the short range I am more effective with boxing type strikes in that they are easier to throw instinctively, have a bit more power, and lead into a proper clinch transition to a grapple defense if necessary. I have found much value in drilling CLF short range sow chuis with backpedal footwork used when necessary, but in combat I feel that playing your CLF short just limits your power, and more importantly, your distance advantage.

Agree or Disagree, and why? Let's hear it.

[hskwarrior]

I like long range to keep him back, but when i attack i prefer mid range leading into short range.

but i gotta teach, so i'll be back to explain my side.

good topic k-no.

[k-no]

Looking forward to your strategy hskwarrior.

I would also like to explain that I do not automatically prescribe that I use another art when the gap is closed and we are in short range distance. At that point there are many CLF combinations that I found are effective but I've found the ones that worked for me were more straight line attacks, talau charp, ping charp/yum charp combos and trap/charp combos. However for the power swinging shots, Western style short range uppercuts and hooks have landed their targets a lot faster and with more "oopmh" than with CLF strikes.

However as I back up a bit and put a little more distance between me and my opponent, my CLF combinations gain more power and effective speed. I've actually used boxing combos and backed up on purpose in order to deliver a CLF attack. This has surprised many people especially, as they think I am moving myself out of range and all of a sudden I am still able to connect to them when at a "distance".

Surely someone has some experience with this? Maybe I'd get a better response if I said that Tarm Sarm and Jeong Yim preferred it this way? j/k

[thedoodey]

palm strikes, forearms, elbows all good for mid/short range

chin ji biu jong i like those

and like k-no said create distance, clf footwork enables us to change the range while still attacking my sifu calls it "toi how wai gong" retreat attacking if you've done 5 wheel punch you'll see this concept

[Fu-Pow]

palm strikes, forearms, elbows all good for mid/short range

chin ji biu jong i like those

and like k-no said create distance, clf footwork enables us to change the range while still attacking my sifu calls it "toi how wai gong" retreat attacking if you've done 5 wheel punch you'll see this concept

Who's your teacher doodey?

[k-no]

thedoodey...YES!

That's what I am talking about....elbows, elbows, elbows, I LOVE those in the short range! I do tend to square up Muay Thai style when I throw those for some reason I can generate more power. The elbow/punch combos in CLF work for me as well but the Muay Thai elbows I have a higher percentage of inflicting fight ending damage as opposed to using my elbow with CLF; then I rely more on the "chain" because it's much faster than it is powerful. This is especially true with fighting opponents much larger than myself.

With that said I save most knees as a follow up. I don't like to clinch too much on purpose. People have knives. They are sharp!

I do use the sliding in horse with a palm strike to deflect kicks and sometimes just to close the distance. I can't seem to generate that much power with my palm unless I am beeyotch-slapping someone with it. I've delivered a right hook with a palm and if it hasn't knocked them out, it has the added advantage of stunning my enemy when they look at you thinking "OUCH! Did you just slap me?" then I continue on with another combo.

That technique in the movies works too, when you slap their ears with both hands, at worst it usually stuns them enough for me to be able to deliver a delibitating blow.

I haven't really tried been choy at short range a whole lot; I know people who can pull it off beautifully but I guess I have a phobia with turning my back that close to someone, I prefer to either retreat or advance with it.

[Eddie]

but if you are close enough to elbow, why dont you just throw him?

I like long range, but I like doing the san shou throw thing too. there are some awsome well skilled CLF fighters out there who are skilled in both long and short range.

K- no, where are you from? I like your approach

[Ben Gash]

I like to work from bridging distance. I was always trained to be able to use all of my CLF techniques in combat sticky hands, so I'm quite comfortable at that range. I also like to feed from the bridge into Cum Na and throwing, which I've found is usually the best way to do it.
If you're having trouble getting power into your circular techniques then I would suggest that you should try to use less shoulder and more hip/waist. Sow, Kap, Jong etc are all HUGELY powerful at close range, but the power generation for this does require a moderate to high skill level.

[hskwarrior]

Yeah I agree with ben here.

For me, power first comes from the floor, up your legs and bulids up at the waist. If you use more waist in most of your strikes you will see that it's more powerful than trying to "shoulder" or muscle your way in.

the other key is in throwing a powerful strike without expending the phyiscal energy which after a few strikes can leave someone out of breath. by concentraiting on relaxed muscles, you can hit someone just as hard as if you tensed up before launching the strike.

Ben, your bridging distance, is that the distance you're able to use chiu sou, or is that at a closer range for you?

see, i'm heavily into the balance of offense and defense. I love to use defense to set someone up. for instance, i like using my lead arm to keep them at a distance, but i use my inside hand to up close defense and redirection and such. so, i like to use one hand to block both of my opponents hands. Poon Kiu is great. so i would, let's say poon kiu with my left side blocking his right hand, knowing the he is going to throw the other one, i pause and use the same poon kiu hand in the reverse direction of poon kiu wuich can also set you up for a choke.

the reverse direction of poon kiu is called what?

thanks in advance.

[Ben Gash]

Hhhmmm, I'm not sure what you mean, as any technique that encircles would be Poon Kiu. Techniques that literally look like the reverse of Poon Kiu? I don't know if you mean Yeurng Kiu or Fun Lan (or indeed Chiu Sau) or what :confused:
As for Chiu Sau, I can use it at all ranges. At distance I can use it to close the gap and make a bridge, when I've already got a bridge I can use it to open up or turn my opponent, and super close it's good for little digs with the elbow and forearm, and for throwing.

[hskwarrior]

Ben,

this is the range i like, and the poon kiu and what i referred to as the reverse poon kiu for lack of the real name of the move.

see the attachments

[Ben Gash]

Yeah, that's the sort of range I like :cool:
See, that's a Chuen Nau for me, but I know the Lau Bun Chuen Nau is different.

[CLFNole]

The 1st pic looks like poon kiu or possibly cum jeurng.

The 2nd looks like chuen lah.

[hskwarrior]

CLFNOLE,

in the one you say looks like Chuen La, if i were to flip the palm facing the sky what is that called again?

but the fist one is poon kiu for us because we sort of lean our sides towards you to generate the power we like.

But i can see where it looks like cum jerng as well.

the way we use cum jerng usually is as a crushing palm done with a slight downward angle.

the way my sifu always told it, you muscle's are meant to repell, but you are helpless when someone comes downwards crushing and tearing your muscles in a downward motion. or if someone tried to chop choy me center line, i might use the cum jerng (Palm ).

[hskwarrior]

here's another set of sheet i like.

[CLFNole]

Frank:

1) If the palm is facing you it would be yueng kiu or mirror hand.

2) The pic of the poon kiu can end where you have the picture blocking a bit higher then circling to the point at which the pic was taken. Just looking at it along it could have been a straight cum jeurng but I know it is not.

[hskwarrior]

i see what you're saying.


when doint to poon kiu do anyone of you slam it down?

if not, how do you execute Your Poon Kiu?

[CLFNole]

I think you can do it a variety of ways. You can circle with it and almost press into the opponents body. Personally when I use it I like to keep a "sticky" connection and rather than just circle directly in front of me I circle while at the same time pull in slightly closing the gap.

[k-no]

I hear what you all are saying in regards to high level CLF. I am no spring chicken myself and have been put through my paces. Sparring however lends to my strategy. There was a lot of sparring going on, and frequently, my Sifu absolutely LOVED to match me up with people larger than myself.

I've also sparred with, in our style, very high level practicioners. I didn't formulate my strategy as an accident. It sort of came out a little bit at first, but after seeing techniques work when slipping them in, I sort of made them part of the game plan. When sparring partners started requiring medical attention and surgery after sparring, it came naturally to me to keep my fighting philosophy for street encounters.

I am sure with time, I can make more of the traditional methods work, be more "pure" CLF. As it was though, I drilled, drilled and drilled. Even a sihing or two was able to execute combos on me effectively, but I'm like whoah that was super fast but if that didn't take me out, how can I expect that to work on some muscle bound roided up MMA freak on the street or the cage? And yeah, we were going hard.

Part of my success I guess I can attribute to Chinese MA stylists not being used to some of the unorthodox methods I use, but as applied to the street, where I only pretty much used MMA style fighting, now that I have added Choy Lay Fut as the core "long distance" approach, I am resolved to never fighting on the street. For most people, it's almost an unfair advantage when they clearly have no idea of the reach advantage I have with CLF and leave themselves wide open as they think we are still "closing the gap".

EDDIE, I live in the SF Bay Area bro, and I have gotten to use my arts several times mostly in urban situations but also lots of bloody spars. Thanks for the compliment. I hope you will chime in more with your experiences in regards to this in S.A. I know it's more modern than some people think there but I am sure that there are some encounters you've had that are unique to your geographical area.

Also, it is almost weird for me to say that I am almost positive that throwing works wonderfully in the short range. For someone like me who is trying to win, it almost doesn't make sense but I look at the situation carefully and oftentimes very hard pavement is involved. I'm thinking that I can injure or maim my opponent so bad that the fight is defused, BUT if I throw the guy he might land on his head and die (flukes like this happen in many "simple" bar fights here) and I would like to if at all possible avoid jail time. Stupid reason not to incorporate a throw...