Traditional Kung Fu fighting??

[Eddie]

I came across some google videos of two guys doing some ‘traditional sparring’, or something like that http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-319537145155456775&q=choy+fut . It made me wonder, is there really such a thing as traditional sparring? Does it mean, you have to play around your opponent and make funny poses and weird hand movements? And how defensive is traditional sparring? I mean, do you have to dance around your opponent and throw punches every 10 seconds, or do you go in and defend with an attack?

My view on fighting is simple. Fighting is fighting, the dynamics and structure might be different from style to style, but in the end, it’s the simple things that count. One can still do Gwa Sow Chop without looking like a ‘ traditional’ fighter (refer to the video link), and still maintain the essence of your style without looking like a kickboxer. If that makes sense to anyone.

Personally, I think the main reason why the world outside thinks that kung fu us useless, is mainly because of the all the crap there is out there.

I’m impressed with the videos of Master Chen Yong Fa on google. His fighting approach seem simple to the point. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2657554897880532898&q=choy+fut . dont care much about the lineage fight right now, its the body movements that matters. Im also just using Master Chen's video as an example, there are many other masters who impress me

[Ben Gash]

What was traditional about that? It was just lame :mad:

[CLFNole]

OK lets start by trying to walk the baat kwa circle around him (maybe I can get him real dizzy). Then I'll put my hands down and go a little Bruce Lee on him. Yeah thats the ticket. In the words of Charlie Brown "Good Grief".

[Eddie]

the thing is, there are loads of people out there who believe that crap. personally, I'd much rather prefer kickboxing or even boxing over that stuff.

but there are still good fighting out there too.

[hskwarrior]

in spite of the video clip fiasco,

i will add that it was obvious the two either:

1) have very little martial arts experience

2) have very little or none at all sparring experience

3) and have most likely never been in a real fight in their life.

the reason i say that is the quality of the strikes. both are too awkward (?) in their movements, too unsure, no real confidence in their skills.

in my school, my students clock each other hard core. sometimes those knuckle heads make each other bleed during their sparring sessions.

but at least they are trying.......you can't blame them for that.

[TenTigers]

that is the reason why you now need a license to buy a sash.

[fiercest tiger]

There isnt a style type of fighting, everyone says we shouldnt look like boxers or kickboxers thats just stupid people that dont realise that to moving naturally and punching naturally is almost like or the same as a boxer. No need to root and have stances, no need for for tiger claws and 1 finger salutes walking around your opponent. jab , cross , upper cuts , hooks are found in every art just with a different flavour, you use YOUR method to fight using the most useful hand skills or leg skills that work for you. If you have to dance and move to get away from strikes then so be it that is natural to YOU.

I havent seen many arts that teach bob, slip , weave which is part of my kung fu system that is like boxing. WHY, cause thats what you do when you fight, you gotta move that head, most TCMA will say keep your head like this dont let it move when you do the form you will lose power!!! Dumb ****s!!

Anyway this is why im starting to hate kung fu, no one thinks for themselves and are only sheep following sifu's words which he follow, which his teacher followed etc.

Garry:rolleyes:

[k-no]

Wow. Yeah I took some heat here and there for not doing "stupid poses" as a CMA stylist. The fact of the matter is, I do what works for me. It's ridiculous how some people stick to unnatural stances just to look "more authentic". Waving the hands around was something we drilled, but for me it was more of a shoulder exercise. When I sparred other CMA stylists, and BEAT them, they were saying "what type of stance is that?"

Uhh.... read some of the Tao of JKD. It's called a block low and high, simple, economical, I either parry your hand or your leg attack and deliver my own. (I don't always stick to this, but often do) Why should I wave my hands around? I don't because: #1. I'm conserving my strength. #2. If you're much too far to even reach me, what exactly am I waving my hands for? I'll do it to confuse someone but for appearances or as a defensive maneuver, it is utterly useless.

And the footwork on that video...OMG. Walking like that is just gonna get you in trouble. There were several times in that vid when there were HUGE openings to do as little as shove the guy and he would fall over his own feet.

I enjoyed the Master Chen Yong Fa video very much. Thank you for sharing that; I can only hope to be that limber and quick when I'm over 50.

k

[hskwarrior]

but thats what separates the men from the boys k-no.

aside from a few, there are a lot of boys on line here.

[Fu-Pow]

Obviously those guys in the video are pretty green. When I first started kung fu I thought that it worked like that too. You realize pretty quickly that you gotta make it work for you. Those guys need some head gear and mitts also and make it a little more realistic...ie you get hit...you know it.

FP

[TenTigers]

we have ducking, bobbing and weaving in our Ng Ying Kuen during our Dragon section. There is a part where you shift from right bow to left, and it is played as if you duck under a hook and deliver a biu jee to the eyes/throat. The moce is subtle, but the concept is present. Western Boxing certainly didn't invent it. I find it pretty hard to believe that TCMA has lasted so long and nobody would've thought to get their head out oof the way-DOH!:eek:
Blind obediance to your teachers is not a byproduct of your art, it was created by the teachersm, and the students themselves. Don't blame the art. Blame yourself.
When I say blame yourself, what I'm saying is be accountable, drop the victim story and move on. You don't have to continue the practice, simply change the way you present your material. You CAN have it both ways, you know.:cool:

[David Jamieson]

That clip showed a couple of guys who didn't want to fight, had no intention...

[TenTigers]

obviously they were just newbies. this doesn't even warrant a discussion. Now, if you were to put on some footage of some more experienced practitioners, say that white crane dude and the tai chi master......:p

[Fu-Pow]

oh lord......:rolleyes:

[Eddie]

not so much worried about those guys, just used them as an example.

how important is throwing to you in a fight?

[k-no]

Ten Tigers said: "Blind obediance to your teachers is not a byproduct of your art, it was created by the teachersm, and the students themselves. Don't blame the art. Blame yourself."

EXACTLY: I remember a strong kid who got in a horse stance and tried some sweeping block to my leg when I was throwing a round kick. I had to stop and say, "Uhh....wtf do you think you're doing?"

"This is how sifu does it. This is how you block the round kick".

"I don't care how you THINK sifu says you should do it."

"(ANGRY) I deflected it, right?"

"Actually I pulled it back when I saw you doing that. If I had committed to that kick and you pulled that BS just then, you'd be sitting down with a broken forearm right now. It doesn't take much."

There is a philosophy to every technique, and if you cannot reconcile that philosophy with your own logic, you should not attempt the technique. Some people go thru the motions of how a technique should "look" but never stop to think about how it works and why it should work. Some sifus are guilty of not explaining this to their students.

Sadly though, even some people that have been studying for several years walk around with false confidence because they are quick with their techniques and look great when in class, but have never actually had a real fight or sparred full on and executed the technique against someone determined to knock their head off their shoulders.

Oh, and Eddie likes to throw! What are your fave throwing techniques Eddie? I've actually thought about supplementing with Shui Jiao (sp) myself, or maybe even train with my old Judo instructor again.

[fiercest tiger]

I would like to see your Ng Ying Kuen with the boxing type bob and weave Ten Tigers. Can you make me a clip?:)

[TenTigers]

I can try-gimmie a few days until my student comes in with a cam and I will put it up.

[Eddie]

k no,
to me, sweeps and throws are pretty much the same thing. cant have one without the others (most throws need a bit of sweeping too). my fave technique is a charng fu sweep (sow gerk). I seem to be able to get most people (after a bit of setting up really), and they always fall pretty hard. my fave throw is actually not really a throw, more pulling the legs from under him. San Shou (Wushu Fed) rules calles it Xie Tie. I spend a crap load of time on that with our fighters, I think it works well in a competition as well as on the street. Work at a club, and always imagine how I would execute that in what ever surroundings I am at, and it works better on bigger people.

We spend most of our time practicing that xie tie (sorry dont know the real names), normal hip throw, and some basic leg grab take downs. Simple stuff that works. I am trying to convert videos into digital format, so that I can put some videos of our san shou (and some forms) guys on the site. once I do that, I will let you know the address.

We have a back leg sweep in our ping kuen (CLFNole would know whats its called), where you basically step from sei ping ma, back into a gong bu(ma) and execute a sow choy. that sweep works just as well :-)

[Eddie]

actually, i think I have the name of that throw wrong. its basically where you 'tackle' the guy, and pull his legs from underneath him.

[TenTigers]

sounds like a double leg pick-up. We do this and go right into the mount-ground n' pound.. I teach this, and a Tiger's Mouth takedown-like the one you described in Ping Kuen, to my beginners and especially my kids. They love doing it, and for kids, it's a fight ender.

[Eddie]

well, beginner techniques are usually the most effective :cool:

[CLFNole]

Eddie:

Don't think that technique really has a name other than gong ma sow choy. There might be some helping word for the direction of the gong ma but I am not sure. I would guess there is also some poetic saying for the whole thing like "tiger exits cave, etc.." but I have never been into the poetic stuff because there is too much to remember already.

Peace.

[Eddie]

both that technique and charng fu has a type of scissor element to it. leg goes one way, and arms goes another way. I like that.

other very cool techniques that are very effective are gwa chow, cheurng ahn choy charp choy (opening for che kuen) and is extremely practical, even in san da with gloves.

Stances - I like taking a ' clasical' kung fu stance for san da, mainly because its harder to get thrown if you are in a sei ping ma, than if you were to stand in a more square stance (like typical thai boxing stance), but the key is to know when and how to change your stance. I can execute most throws from a sei ping ma, and I can ajust my height in my stance quickly, which gives me the advantage of bobbing and weaving, while still having good balance.

I really really enjoy san da, and I really enjoy watching other people's take on that. its so good to see good san da techniques comming from ' traditional' fighters, be it CLF, Shaolin, what ever.

[dougadam]

Would you be so kind to define traditional kung fu.

[wiz cool c]

I made a whole hour long video on traditional sparring and know one bought it. Kung Fu In Action and no one bought it.

[Eddie]

dougadam,
thats the whole point of this thread.
I think there many people who understand what this topic is all about. :rolleyes:

[htowndragon]

HAHA i loved the chan yong fa vid


WAHHHHHNNNN
TWOOOOOOO
SREEEEEEEE
FOOOOOOOO


i grew up in chinatown, and along with my family the accent never gets old.

[thedoodey]

haha, he does it with authority got to put those exclamation marks in : P

WAHHHHHNNNN!
TWOOOOOOO!
SREEEEEEEE!
FOOOOOOOO!

STAND BY!

love his enthusiasm and intensity

-oh yeah what's that jong(dummy) he's using that rotates like a fan blade

[Eddie]

that dummy with the blade thing really looks cool. i can imagine that it really works your speed.

anyone know of other videos from other masters showing technique and fighting training like that?

[Jared1211]

I am currently practicing a traditional style of mantis and I must say, that is not how martial arts actually are. You are right, in the end fighting is fighting. It doesn't matter whether you are a kick boxer or a style of any kung fu(even soft style). I admire all of martial arts as a whole. People out there just see videos like that and say, "Well I could fight better than that with no training." That is more chorographed than practiced.

[TenTigers]

Jared, if you are trainnig SPM,for that matter, any traditional CMA under a qualified Sifu, then you are indeed one of the lucky ones. As my quote in the other post stated, don't be concerned with what these other guys say or do, simply keep to your course. Sometimes, things are better left unsaid. You will eventually find people of like mind, who share your enthusiasm, viewpoints, and will encourage you to pursue your goals rather than try to drag you down to their way of thinking.
Kinda like Mexican Crabs-one can escape, but not two, because they drag each other down as soon as they try to climb out of the bucket.
But arguing with these guys is like arguing with an idiot: He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience!

I am not saying that MMA is bad, or ground fighting is bad. You need to learn these skills as well to be truly prepared to fight at all ranges. You can always get bumrushed, or blindsided, and must be prepared to deal with it and have the neccesary tools. But the myth that most fights end up on the ground is justthat-a myth. Sure, most schoolyard fights do, but "real grownup fights?" from what I've seen, one guy is on the ground 'cause the other guy lit him up. In many self-defense confrontations, rather than ego fueled chest thumping adolescent skirmishes, you will not be rolling around on the floor, you will be beaten to a bloddy pulp.
Again, you do need to learn these skills. Why? Because since the advent of MMA, more and more people are doing it. It's in the media, on pay per view, in magazines, even in the New York Times. Between that and the popularity of pro wrestling, everybody and their uncle will try to ground 'n pound. When I was your age-manny moons ago, all we had to worry about was the wrestling jock, or football jock taking you down-and if it was the wrestler, you were basically fu(ked.
Now, everybody tries to do it, so you need another set of tools along with your regular tools.
In SPM, if we are facing each other, close eonough for me to hit you-I will. period.SPM is fast-blindingly fast (no pun intended) The strikes will completely disable you. I know it, you know it. That does not mean that someone can't cover, rush in and go for the takedown, so I'd better know how to deal with it anyway.
My Sifu has been in SPM for over 39 years, and trained with the old man as well. And even he trains for grapplers, and rolls from time to time. So what does that tell you?

[Hung Fist]

You call that sparring WHAT THE FREAK.:mad:

[dainos]

is there a reason those people are like standing 10 feet away from each other.i scuk at fighting but those guys...... ugh.. i cant even think up words to really explain how i feel. :(

[kismet]

Nice post ten tigers, I think you are right in having the right set of skills and how you use these tools is very important in an ever changing game/ arena.

All those many moons ago did you just accept that if a wrestler took you down you were done for or did you train to fight back in that position? Was it to use your SPM in that range / floor or use it combined with wrestling / floor fighting also?

[fiercest tiger]

LOL Suil lum,

Like sheets of music common on man, yopu dont need forms to be a fighter, not martial art forms anyway. You need a partner, you need mits and pads, heavy bags, someone to beat you up and roll with. Tiger and crane, mantis fingers wont help you against a robot/cyborg. Too many people believe that the form is just fighting and they try and fight using the sequences out of the forms and get served. You dont need many tools to be a fighter, just some basics and work them well.

I dont call pad workouts forms by the way incase you going to say isnt pad and bag workouts just forms?;)

TT

Isnt hung gar fast and powerful enough?

Garry

[TenTigers]

FT=I originally dot into SPM because I noticed that their hands looked remarkably like the short hand techniques contained within my forms. I had felt that in my own personal training, and experience of many others' Hung Kuen as well, that these skills were lacking somewhat. The more I learned, the more I saw the connections. Sometimes one needs to look outside to discover what was contained within. Sometimes, over time and circumstance (commercialization, catering to students, etc) skills are not emphacized, and even lost.
Hung Kuen is the original MMA, containing elements of short bridges, and long, with influence from Fukien Bak-Hok, as well as Lama/Hop-Ga, and in our own line, CLF as well. So "cross training" is accepted, as far as I am concerned.
Bottom line, it's all about attributes, not techniques or forms. I know you can agree with that!;)

[Jared1211]

Ten Tigers I agree completely with you about the grappling these days, but I have taken more jiu jitzu than I have SPM so if I was taken to the ground I could go for that too.