Internal/External

[Water Dragon]

The deeper I'm getting into my training, the more I'm beginning to feel that the whole Internal/External Art thing is a bunch of crap.

What do you think? Why?

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

depends on the degree of wai gung or nei gung in the system you are learning.

for example alot of taiji styles teach soft and relaxed in the beginning and relax the muscels to understand chi circulation. later when a master introduces them to a faster or second form like in several taiji styles have a fast or cannon form, they add the chi power with muscel power, but the mechanics and principles must be ingrained in the student, developed by long term understanding of the first form.

[Water Dragon]

Doesn't Taiji stress Wei Gong? (Stance work, stepping, correct alignment?)

I'm learning a lot of external stuff now from my Shuai Chiao teacher. What surprised the hell out of me was the emphasis on relaxation. Not softness per se, but relaxation as in NO TENSION.

Next question, is Taiji soft unconditionally, or just soft compared to harder styles? Let's use Hsing Yi as an example.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

Doesn't Taiji stress Wei Gong? (Stance work, stepping, correct alignment?)

of course- wai gong is using Li strength- li is bones and muscels, but the attempt is to make it relax so that i (pronounced-ee)aka- will or intention can direct chi (vital energy)with relaxed li.

Next question, is Taiji soft unconditionally, or just soft compared to harder styles? Let's use Hsing Yi as an example.

the answer lies within the taiji symbol or philosophy "when we come to the peak of hardness we are already reaching the peak of softnesss and vice versa, or when the day reaches noon it is already moving towards the peak of night." Ultimately the softer you can become in internal arts it allows you to become solid like 'steel wrapped in cotton.'

[kungfu cowboy]

Hmm, for me its just the opposite. The longer I study, the more difference I see between the two. Go figure!

"Ninja!...NINJA!"-Christopher George, from "Enter the Ninja"

[Repulsive Monkey]

I completely concur with you Cowboy. If one cannot tell the difference then they ought to question their art or teachings very seriously, because there is a big difference between the two.

[Water Dragon]

Where are these differences?

Is it in the Wei Gong (Stance Work, Steppings, Body Alignments)

Is it in the Nei Gong (Basic Power development)

Is it in the Qi Gong (Breath and energy work)

Why would Hsing Yi which is "hard" be internal and Long Fist which contains all of the above methods be external?

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[wujidude]

Check out the xingyi page at www.emptyflower.com. (http://www.emptyflower.com.) There is a good article by Ken Fish there on what "internal" gong fu means. There are also some other archived articles discussing different aspects of it. These are insights based on long experience in both practicing and teaching internal martial arts.

[Ky-Fi]

I agree to some extent with that article by Ken Fish, at least in regards to defining "internal".

[This message was edited by Ky-Fi on 05-17-01 at 09:42 AM.]

[hasayfu]

Hi WaterDragon,

I used to get into this debate all the time. I'm a firm believer you are right. At the high levels, TCMA is "internal" by the definition that the TaiChi and XingYi folks say about relax, full body, blah, blah.

I used to think it was all going up the same mountain just taking different paths. I've since modified my analogy. It's the same mountain but TaiChi starts at a point higher up the mountain.

So for "external" folks, they get to a certain point on the mountain and feel, it's pretty high up and decide to rest there. That's why you get many "external masters" not looking very internal.

For "internal" folks, they are standing at the bottom of the mountain using a map that starts somewhere in the middle. So they wander around paths they think are taking them to the top but really don't get off the ground.

Now for my subject title. The distinction internal/external is a red herring. It's the finger pointing to the moon. It doesn't matter which finger you use to point at the moon, the point is that you look at the moon and not the finger. (or you will miss all that heavenly glory)

If some folks tell you that your pinky will never point at the moon, then why argue. If you see the moon that's all that matters.

Also, the burden of proof is in the internal guys. If you have seen even one person that has internal qualities from just practicing an "external" style, then you win the argument because it doesn't matter that everyone else stopped halfway up the mountain. It's proof that the can path get you there. It's up to you to follow the path.

I provided the direct Lam Family for Hung Gar to not only show that internal qualities exist at the high levels but that it's repeatable in the lineage.

I'm sure that the other "external" styles have their role models too.

[Water Dragon]

I see what you're saying and it makes sense but...

Using your analogy, I've found that I've had to go back down to the base of the mountain because I forgot all my gear ;)

I don't know what this means yet but hopefully I'll end up a lot higher up when I get all my gear packed.

Does your experience point to this?

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[hasayfu]

Any more movie cliche's I can butcher?

Yes grasshopper, some paths up the mountain (by teacher not inherently by style) will lead you to a dead end. Then you have to climb down a bit and take a different path.

Here's where the analogy falls apart but I attibute it to the nature of transmission. A student can only absorb so much in a given time. They emphasize certain things but not the whole picture. Add that some folks go out and teach after 5-6 years of just learning sets and what do you have? Do that for a few generations and entire pieces of the style is gone unless someone goes back to the source and finds it.

That said, one should never really have to go down to the bottom of the mountain. Your training adds to your understanding compared to someone who started fresh. Now I know I'll get someone who says, I got to break all these bad habits from external guys learning but what can I say. They are right. Some folks don't follow the path or just mis read the map.

[PlasticSquirrel]

from my limited experiences:

a good practitioner of any gongfu style has both li and qi, and uses them how he wishes in his jin. i don't believe that the internal and external are the same, but that they can be mixed in different ways and refined into different things.

i think that you are right in the way that changquan can be as internal as xingyiquan, but it mostly depends on the practitioner. the forms in xingyi, however, are quite complex in how they move qi. an example of this is the eagle form, and how it moves qi to the eyes, so sight is clear.

just my experiences. take them with a grain of salt, if you want to.

p.s. for the taiji softness thing, everything in taiji is in relation to something else.

[Kumkuat]

The difference between Hsing-yi and Long Fist is ward off energy or peng jing.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

...internal and external dont matter, they become united as part of the human experience. Intellectualize all you want, but stay true to what you know. what I know is stay soft and relax as much as possible in my life and when it comes to a time where a fight occurs, I will rage and put some external force (unconsciously combines with internal power) on someone, then go back to being soft again.

[Josh _f]

Is there a difference between internal and external? I'm dividing this reply into two parts. First is the high level view, which approaches this question from the abstract philosophical view of the traditional Chinese approach to martial arts. The second and much longer answer will view question from the nuts and bolts perspective-- examining the actual methodology of neija vs. waijia training.

I have heard it said that at the highest level there is no difference between neijia and waijia. People often mistakenly believe that this means training methodologies are the same; this is not what is meant.

Due to a cultural emphasis on literacy, there has developed within China a large body of philosophical-strategic writings on martial arts, the most famous of which is Sun Tzu's Art of War, but there many others. This body of writings has influenced nearly all the martial arts of China, and this is why if you spend some time studying the songs of different schools you'll find the same sayings popping up again and again...
"1 ounce to deflect 100 pounds", "seize control of the center line", "know your opponent but don't let them know you" etc.
Ultimately these writings led scholars to develop the notion that all martial arts must answer the same problems. This is one of the core ideas of traditional Chinese martial arts-- that strategically all martial arts must answer the same problems. Once they knew that all martial arts have the same problems to solve, the scholars said that at a high level all martial arts must develop the same answer, the best answer to each problem. Thus, at a high level there is no internal or external only better and worse ways for each individual to execute the correct technique.
I should note that I'm not Chinese Language Scholar-- rather I'm repeating a traditional argument as some one quite knowledgeable explained it to me. I unfortunately don't have the necessary knowledge to argue for or against this idea. I've simply provided it as food for thought for those interested in traditional views of Chinese martial arts. The Second part of this reply will contain my personal argument.

Do not attempt to share your interest in martial arts with pedantic, narrow-minded scholars. As soon as they find out, they will quote from the classics and regale you with all kinds of irrelevant non-sense. This is infuriating. You can deal with this by either avoiding them or keeping your art secret.
--Ch'ang Nai-chou

[kungfu cowboy]

Part of the difference to me is that internal arts place an emphasis on proper structure, whole-body power, rooting, relaxation, and redirection along the line that uses only the least amount of energy needed to get the job done. The strikes are just as strong (or stronger) and usually more painful.

"Ninja!...NINJA!"-Christopher George, from "Enter the Ninja"

[boy_analog]

Call me biased, but I'm rather fond of my Sifu's opinion on this point. He says that if there is struggle, then your art is external. Internal arts accomplish their goals without struggle.

Makes for a nice change from the long-winded dissertations we're used to seeing on this point, IMHO.

[kungfu cowboy]

Amen! ;)

"Ninja!...NINJA!"-Christopher George, from "Enter the Ninja"

[Rockwood]

Pardon me cowboy, but external arts all teach, or claim to teach, proper structure, whole body power, rooting, relaxation and redirection, as well as using the least amount of energy possible.
These things are common to all Chinese martial arts.
Personally I find it unproductive ask this question. I have been beaten up by external as well as internal practitioners, and have learned something everytime. If there is a difference, it is for men of greater talent than myself to articulate.

-Jess

Part of the difference to me is that internal arts place an emphasis on proper structure, whole-body power, rooting, relaxation, and
redirection along the line that uses only the least amount of energy needed to get the job done. The strikes are just as strong (or
stronger) and usually more painful

[Kumkuat]

I might be mistaken, but the thing about using the least amount of energy might mean using the least amount of muscular energy or power. Unless I'm mistaken again, I found most external arts I know (while they are quite relaxed) generate their power from mostly their muscles.

[kungfu cowboy]

oops. Knew I might catch some for that! I didn't mean that external arts don't also teach some of the same concepts, but I do think that as you shift from external to internal methods, you switch from using overt muscular power to almost entirely structural power, which requires more strict adherence to the above mentioned principles to be as effective. And what Kumquat said.

[Fu-Pow]

I think it all gets back to how you breath.....

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/logo.gif
"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

[Josh _f]

I apologize for the amount of time it has taken for me to complete this. To begin with people may want to view an earlier topic on this forum addressing this same point:

What is an internal art??? (http://forum.kungfuonline.com/1/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=tpc&s=126197291&f=123191102&m=624193612#564197232)

So is there a difference between neijia and waijia? A couple of weeks ago I had dinner with Li TaiLiang and it was brought up how many people these days say that there is no difference between internal and external arts. His response, "Many people today do neijia like waijia." I bring this up because Li TaiLiang is a recognized master Xinyi and to him (and me) there is a clear difference between neijia and waijia.
Before I try and explain the difference between the two, I'm going to list what neijia is not:

1) Being soft does not make an art internal.
2) Having neigungs does not make an art internal.
3) Using rooting does not make an art internal.
4) Moving slowly does not make an art internal.
5) Talking about chi/Spirituality/the force does not make an art internal.
6) Developing good alignment does not make an art internal.
7) Eschewing violence does not make an art internal.

So what makes an art internal? Traditionally the distinction would be internal arts use the yi (mind) to lead the qi where as external arts use li (strength) to lead the qi. What follows is my best attempt to explain what these mean. I should, however, say that I do not believe it is possible to explain these things words. Ultimately to understand the difference between internal and external you need an expert to show you the difference. Therefore I recommend interested people to go check out Yang Zhendou, Chen Xiao Wang, Li Tailiang, or any other high-level neijia practitioner one can. If you’re in the Bay Area, I’ll be glad show what I can, but my neijin skills are the lowest level that one can have. If you’d still like to meet just post me a note here. Anyways on to the description:

Lets begin with external arts and examine how external arts approach a punch. All external arts look to develop a structure for their punch that allows the most muscles to be brought to bear (legs, hips, shoulders, arms) and allow the most force to be conveyed into the opponent. In order to do these external arts set up a structure that uses bone alignment with relaxed muscle tension to convey the force of the earth from the practitioner’s foot to his hand and then into the opponent. This is what is known as li leading the qi. The li is the relax muscle strength and the qi is the structure. In order to maintain maximum mobility this structure only occurs when contact is made with the opponent.

Internal arts on the other hand take the structure that occurs at the point of contact in external arts and strips away all the muscle tension, until the practitioners body becomes a “spring” between the ground and his opponent. This spring is the key to the internal arts. If you have done standing drills with a high level neijia practitioner and had them lightly press on parts of your body while they adjusted your stance, you should know that they where testing for this “spring” like connectivity. Having this connectivity at a single point is not enough; very high-level external artists can achieve this level of connectivity. What internal artist strives for is to maintain this “spring” at all times. This is what is meant by the yi leads the qi. When the practitioner is able to maintain this connectivity We say he has neijin or peng.

As this is becoming quite long I’m going to further explore the differences between internal and external arts in my next part.

Do not attempt to share your interest in martial arts with pedantic, narrow-minded scholars. As soon as they find out, they will quote from the classics and regale you with all kinds of irrelevant non-sense. This is infuriating. You can deal with this by either avoiding them or keeping your art secret.
--Ch'ang Nai-chou

[Braden]

Good post, Josh. Best wishes to you and yours. :)

[Water Dragon]

Beautiful explanation. It makes sense to me in a way, keep it coming.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[Kumkuat]

you had dinner with Li Tai Liang? That's very cool. So far I haven't met any very high level professional neijia people yet, but I'll be meeting Cheng Jin Cai, Chen Zheng Lei, and Yan Gao Fei soon hopefully.

Anyway, whatever Josh said sounds very correct from all the articles, interviews, etc., I read from high level neijia practiceners.

Oh yeah, in the bay area, isn't there a person named Zhang Xue Xin? I hear he's very high level there.

You Californians get all the cool guys to come such as Zhu Tian Cai, Li Tai Liang, Chen Xiao Wang, etc.,

[SevenStar]

Can you further explain this "spring" concept?

"A wise man speaks because he has something to say; A fool speaks because he has to say something."

[Repulsive Monkey]

I totally concur with Josh. In my limited capacity and understanding many modern day classicists (and thats the practicing type not the arm-chair experts!) recognize that before all else when trying to prgress the (even) moderate levels of the internal arts (I can only speak of Taiji Quan here for myself!) one must acheive Peng Jin. This is the founding Jin of all subsequent Jin's. This is the the base plate to which development of all other Jin's requires. Secondly the way how Josh has explained that stage of internally opening up the body, is refreshingly clear. If anyone can appreciate and understand this analogy then you have a good idea of whats required.

[honorisc]

When one looks at the mountain, one might decide to not climb. But when one walks away. That one is walking downhill :-)...Considering a thing is the start, to doing that thing~.

Relax not strange for Shui-Chiao. Note: I might tend to make presumptions and talk at you. This method of communication could take days for me to be more polite or Civil. No offense intended End Note. Theoretically what one does in this works because you have something to work with--(this might seem strange sounding(humorous/ironic) It is hard to break a blade of grass; a stick is more easily broken. Therefore relax sothat you may bend where they try to break you.
Relax not strange for Shui-Chiao. Tensness perhaps can be felt by the opponent(s). The tenser you are, the more readable you are, more predictable...the light is red, you cover the pedal. You know the moment is comming, but you don't know when. You presume. Every wrong presumption puts you in un recoverable motion. If the light turns green while you're in un recoverable motion...vulnerable (open), gator bait, fishfood, minced meat,one leg short in a sprint, looking through your glasses and seeing the back end of your underwear (while you are wearing them)...Theoretically one has quicker reactions an can initiate movment quicker from
relaxed~.

Very some such,perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[honorisc]

When the dust starts to fly off of the record, I'll try to change the speed (rpms) from 45 to 33.

Here's a way to say something which might be relevant that is used In what I do~ (basically I don't do martial arts)I don't think it can be called a Kung-Fu (lacks foundation of Kung-Fus) No name to be mentioned (hopefully). reference, My Breathing.

In My Breathing it has been said something to the effect that a (single) sheet of paper can be torn. [as you add sheets, that stack becomes more difficult to tear.] A ream of paper does not tear easily...when using brute strength there are holes in the Strength. The holes allow the Strenght to collapse-ish. Slow development of Strength like a ream of paper has no holes~ in the Strength...Strenght like paper on paper on paper...is preffered as to greatset Human excellence~.

Hsing yi is one of three stereotypically considered Internal Arts.I have heard White Eyebrow considered a fourth- I think because they use 108 points or accupressure/accupuncture methodology in their striking. White Eyebrow (Bak (Pak) Mei) uses a hand called phoenix-eyewhich relates it to a recently Malaysian based System I only know as Pheonix-Eye Fist but that ight relate to Southern Preying mantis (called that so it wouldn't be known that it comes from the Chu family girls or the nun supposedly skilled in White Crane from a Shao-lin temple that was burned. A Bak Mei leader seems to have ties to a Dragon style. However, I No_Know.

Going from 45 rpm to 33 rpm :-)

I will regard onl the three classical Internal Arts as Internal Arts for reference here.

Hsing yi seems to have exercises that promote blood flow to promote qi flow. Although tough or basic looking or Hard style looking, this warmup feature helps catagorize it as Intenal.

While long fist and others might address breathing to make the techniques work or work better or improve endurane or Power or some such...Hsing yi addresses Timing + Breathing--a certain halation (in- or ex-) with specific movements and in specific directions (inhale as your hands rise...). These are not merely helpers nor suggestions-ish. These are requirements at the on set( at the fisrt) for Hsing yi. The quality of demad on breathing methodology seems to be a difference between Hsing yi and Long Fist. Perhaps Some-such.

Very some such,perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[honorisc]

A pine cone and a pine tree can be related. A pine cone is not a pine tree. But with care and growth, one cannot be without the other. You cannot have a pine tree without a pine cone. And a pine cone becomes a pine tree. [except for genetic engineering and or or cloning. but even then, the principle is the same and still holds true, theoretically some-such]

Having the acorn of Internal first one could have wonderous External (with benefits to health and workings of the body different, perhaps not the same as benefits to health of the External first).
Having the seed of External first one could have the great reinforcement of the Internal at the later stages of development.

On the standard of mastery of ten years. External gives easy to measure advances in skill which seem miraculous at the end of the term.
Interenal you can't affect the outside world significantly better until seven or eight years, but when that kicks-in it will be remarkable at least.

External first if...you are impatient--like to see proveable results; just would like to be strong. Note this tends to fade with age End Note.

Internal first if...you have patience--you would like the level of ability that is worth waiting years of unprovable results; to acquire Great Strength. Note this tends to be maintained with age and increase with practice End Note.

External marks the body/skin and can deform even when done rightly. (this is why ointments ar significant for external training to heal the skin and mend things better-ish)
Internal tends to make healthier, smooth skin than External (also uses ointments salves and medicenes, but not as required for healthy advancmet as in External).

Very some such,perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[Josh _f]

I'm sorry that this is taking so long to complete, but it's not easy to convey in words physical skills. People interested in an experts view of neija vs. waija should read the following interview with Mr.Ma Chuanxu (http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/SpiritSt/xinyi/baguazhangMCX_new1.htm).
Internal/ external part 3

In the last section I explored the difference between yi leading qi and li leading qi in this section I differentiate between internal and external relaxation.

Relaxation—
One of the biggest points of confusion is the difference between being relaxed in internal and external arts.
1) Some external arts use dynamic tension training like sanchin. To practitioners of these types neigongs relaxed means anything the less than completely tense. I’m not going to bother addressing this view as it should be clear to anyone with basic knowledge of internal arts that this type of power development is counter productive to the development of neijin. In fact these types of neigongs are one of the key means by which external Chinese arts develop the li leading the qi.

2) Other arts, especially those focused on grappling, develop a relaxation that allows the practitioner to hide their center of gravity while sensing their opponents; it also allows them to slip out of bars and lock. This type of relaxation is developed almost entirely in the arms. From an opponents perspective the defenders bridge is empty up and to the point when he tries to go through at which point the defender uses slight tension and root to prevent the opponent from entering. From an internal perspective this kind of relaxation is empty. The emptiness is especially clear in practitioners who spend too little time worrying about preventing the entrance. These people often develop noodle arms. Unfortunately many neijia practitioners, especially those who focus on competition push hands, develop this type of empty relaxation. From the point of view of combat effectiveness there is nothing wrong with this. However, if one is interested in developing neijin one must avoid developing this type of relaxation.


3) So what does it mean when neija arts refer to relaxation? Before I answer this I’d like to say that in my opinion one of the greatest stumbling blocks for people is the use of the term relaxed. Unfortunately in English when we say to relax there is connotation of resting, taking it easy, not exerting oneself, etc. Unfortunately these connotations lead people to try and find positions that are comfortable; these positions however are incorrect. “To relax” in internal arts means to strip away the unnecessary muscle tension and align the body so that the “spring” is formed. At first this should be quite uncomfortable as the muscles used to support this alignment are underdeveloped in most people. If any of you want to explore this I suggest attending a Chen Xiao Wang seminar and having him adjust you for low standing. In this training Chen Xiao Wang forces your body into the most relaxed state it can handle. When in this stance all the muscle tension is taken out of your upper body and your entire structure is supported by a very small set of muscles in the upper legs. Since these muscles are not use to supporting this weight they will hurt a lot. A common description is feeling pins and needles. Yet, Chen Xiao Wang refers to this position as the most relaxed. If you can maintain this position long enough to have someone press lightly on the top of your head, you will note that the force is transferred directly into the ground. This is what is meant as relaxing in Mejia, aligning the whole body if one presses on any point it feels like steel wrapped cotton.

So concludes this part. In Part four I’d like to examine the difference between internal and external “whole body movement”.

Do not attempt to share your interest in martial arts with pedantic, narrow-minded scholars. As soon as they find out, they will quote from the classics and regale you with all kinds of irrelevant non-sense. This is infuriating. You can deal with this by either avoiding them or keeping your art secret.
--Ch'ang Nai-chou

[Josh _f]

Kumkuat re Zhang Xue Xin.
ZXX is a senior indoor student of Feng Zhiqiang and very skilled. Although it is true that the Bay Area is a major seminar stop for most of the high level practitioners, people should keep in mind that the reason for this is that they are number of people dedicated to organizing the seminars. If you're truly interested in developing internal skills, and you are not near a qualified teacher, you might consider organizing seminar yourself with someone like Li Tailiang. If you spend the time and effort to organize a seminar most teachers will recognize your effort.

Sevenstar: Regarding the "spring". Unfortunately this is one of those physical things that if you see it once you'll know what I mean, but other wise it's like trying to describe the butterfly stroke to someone whose never seen a large body water. The spring is in fact a very complex coordination of body alignment and movement. Just like when you swim the butterfly you don't think first use my arms, now kick, now breathe. If you were to break it down like this you'd sink. Instead your mind focuses on the entire coordinated movement of the stroke. The spring is the same thing-- your mind must focus on the single coordinated movement and alignment that forms the spring.(yi leads qi) If your mind trys to break it down into its parts you will automatically do it externally.

Do not attempt to share your interest in martial arts with pedantic, narrow-minded scholars. As soon as they find out, they will quote from the classics and regale you with all kinds of irrelevant non-sense. This is infuriating. You can deal with this by either avoiding them or keeping your art secret.
--Ch'ang Nai-chou

[Josh _f]

In part 4 of my never ending contrasting of internal and external arts, I'd like to compare the differences in neijia and waijia power generation. Although considered basic by most high level Chinese practitioners, the ability to generate lots of power in ones strikes is essential to both neijia and waijia arts. Both neijia and waijia refer to the methodology used to generate power as "whole body". The actual physical approaches they take are very different

1) Waija arts-- power from the hips.
Your standing across from your opponent in a ready stance; your hands and arms are up to protect your center, and ready to relax if your opponent attempts to seize your bridge (see part 3). As your opponent enters he opens up, and you now have one opportunity to strike. You know the posture that you must be in at the point of contact (see part 1), all that remains is generating the power itself.
All waijia arts generate power by linking the muscles of the body from foot to striking surface (for arguments sake let’s say the fist.) The vast variety of Chinese martial arts provides many different methods of doing this. Some approach the fist as a weight at the end of a rope (the arm) and use the waist to amplify the power. Others link the body from foot to hand via the back. Although external arts have a great variety of whole body power generating methods they all share the use of the hips to link the transference of power from the legs to the upper body. I don't think it's necessary for me explain the importance of the legs to maximum power generation.
The problem that all arts must solve is how to transfer the power being generated by the legs to the upper body. External arts solve this problem by using the hips. It should be noted not all Chinese arts use the hips the same way to convey power. Some use a twisting motion; others use the hips in a driving motion to provide linear acceleration for the upper body.
One side effect of using the hips to generate and direct power is that doing so will always cause a slight break in alignment requiring the use muscle reestablish and maintain it (see part 1). Ultimately all waijia arts use a combination of legs, shoulders and arms with hips linking the upper and lower body as well as directing the power.

2) Neijia arts--from the dantien.
Let us consider the same scenario with the internal artist:
You’re standing across from your opponent in a ready stance. Your body is a spring (see part 3), ready to redirect your opponent if he should contact your bridge. As your opponent enters he opens up, and you now have one opportunity to strike. Unlike the external artist who’s strike uses linked muscles and a carefully constructed frame, you must learn to expand or contract the spring. In order to do this you will need to use your legs and dantien.

(Brief tangent to follow)
If there's a first step to internal proficiency it’s learning to use one's dantien. Let me begin by stating the dantien is not a real thing, in the sense of corresponding to a western physical organ. The dantien is a conceptual location. This location is a spot two - three fingers below the navel and an inch under the skin. Learning to control the dantien is a matter of developing the entire range abdominal and lower back muscles. As one develops this area it will take on the shape of a sphere, this is often referred to as a Qi ball. Since this section is on power generation I'm not going to go into detail on dantien. If people are interested in more information they can start another topic and I will respond as I have time. (End tangent)

As I've already said in the internal arts at every moment the body is a spring.
The center of this spring is the dantien. When generating power in the neijia arts the legs generate force that is directed into the dantien causing the spring to expand and convey the force into the opponent.

What I’m about to describe is for illustrative purposes only; it’s not a true mechanical representation of how the body works in internal arts. Imagine that the upper body is a spring that is attached to a heavy ball (the dantien). This ball is attached by bungee cords to two rods (the legs) located on opposite sides of the bottom of the ball with the other spring on the top. If you take hold of the two rods you can manipulate the ball. If you think about this set up you can see how it’s possible to use the elasticity of the bungee cords to cause the ball to generate power through the spring. Because the ball can rotate 360 degrees the spring can be relocated almost anywhere.

As in the above illustration the dantien should be able rotate 360 degrees allowing power to be generated from the legs out through the spring in any direction. If an Internal artist attempts to use the hips to generate or direct power, rather than the dantien the power won’t flow freely. One quick side note if you use this model it’s easy how the neijia arts generate their strong down power. If instead of using the legs to "push" against ground, we sunk into the legs, the dantien would cause the spring to contract. This contraction could be used to crush the opponent between the ground and the neijia practitioner’s hands.

I hope that this helps illustrate the differences in internal and external power generation.

Do not attempt to share your interest in martial arts with pedantic, narrow-minded scholars. As soon as they find out, they will quote from the classics and regale you with all kinds of irrelevant non-sense. This is infuriating. You can deal with this by either avoiding them or keeping your art secret.
--Ch'ang Nai-chou

[Fu-Pow]

Hey, thanks Josh, that was very good. I might print that out and save it....thanks again..... :D

Hey, I don't remember if you addressed this. But how does TCM fit into it...ie flow of "chi" or bioelectric energy......because you are relaxed in tai chi can you move the energy around with the mind...hence "neija"...is that the theory?


Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/logo.gif
"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee :confused:

[This message was edited by Fu-Pow on 05-31-01 at 05:16 PM.]

[Josh _f]

regarding:
TCM bioelectric energy etc.

From the mouth of Yang Zhendou himself:
When asked a similar question at a lecture I was attending. YZD said, " In taiji we're not interested in that kind of qi." He then proceeded to show what qi means in taiji which is establishing and maintaining the spring-like connectivity to all parts of the body.

Do not attempt to share your interest in martial arts with pedantic, narrow-minded scholars. As soon as they find out, they will quote from the classics and regale you with all kinds of irrelevant non-sense. This is infuriating. You can deal with this by either avoiding them or keeping your art secret.
--Ch'ang Nai-chou

[Water Dragon]

LOL, I used to work with a teacher who used to say' "The best definition of Chi is momentum"

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[Fu-Pow]

cool, thanks....so do you think this whole "dim-mak" business is a bunch of crap (ie where you are "shocking" your opponents system with your "chi"?) I mean, does dim-mak really just another name for pressure point striking? :confused:

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/logo.gif
"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

[Josh _f]

regarding dim mak
Yes dim mak is just another name for point striking/pressure point attacks and all Chinese martial arts contain dim mak at some level. However my personal opinion on dim mak is the same as Wang Xiang Zhai; who once said, "every point is a pressure point if you hit hard enough." The internal arts have no particular emphasis on dim mak, and in my opinion point striking is counter to the conservative nature of internal arts. Besides if you have even a basic level of jin skills you can generate enough force to break bones and cause internal bleeding. It makes no sense to waste time developing point striking skills when you can develop enough power to make your opponent spit blood whereever you hit him.

Do not attempt to share your interest in martial arts with pedantic, narrow-minded scholars. As soon as they find out, they will quote from the classics and regale you with all kinds of irrelevant non-sense. This is infuriating. You can deal with this by either avoiding them or keeping your art secret.
--Ch'ang Nai-chou

[Water Dragon]

You're a man after my own heart.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[MonkeySlap Too]

Josh, I have been too wiped out this last week to get into this topic (see my poor spelling in other posts), but you are one dead on guy. I'm gonna print this one out so I don't have to yap so much.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[honorisc]

I think the phrase point striking is an empty phrase to you (I'm writing this and prefer to not go back to see who said). Since (If) it has no meaning for you, then anything that you think is a different name for that would also have virtually no meaning--you hit points(with your fingers). What's that? perhaps, ~Fingers can't do as much damage as my fist.

"Yes dim mak is just another name for point striking/pressure point attacks and all Chinese martial arts contain dim mak at some level."
Striking to the leg to rupture the kidneys is Dim~ Mak. Throwing a hard punch to the kidneys is merely sensible.

"However my personal opinion on dim mak is the same as Wang Xiang Zhai; who once said, "every point is a pressure point if you hit hard enough.""

A teacher trying to get across a concept; not to be taken literally. It says you can hurt them anywhere if you hit them there hard enough (Note: hard enough does not necessarily mean as hard as you can End Note:)

"The internal arts have no particular emphasis on dim mak, and in my opinion point striking is counter to the conservative nature of internal arts."

Basically, however they function from the same pool of understanding. An actual study of Dim Mak can improve your Internal Art for your health and development as an Internal Arts practitioner and as a Kung-Fu boxer/fighter.

"Besides if you have even a basic level of jin skills you can generate enough force to break bones and cause internal bleeding. It makes no sense to waste time developing point striking skills when you can develop enough power to make your opponent spit blood whereever you hit him."

If you can cause your opponent to spit blood where ever you hit your opponent you are using Chee. Whatever you might call it. Even if you don't think that you are, you are. And your strike (physical) or Chee could interfere with the opponent's chee circulation which allowed your opponent to spit blood after getting hit...in the upper arm...

Learning an internal art (the long haul) one learns dim mak principles and theories. Take up Chinese medicine, onelearns Dim Mak principles and theories.

Have a Hua Tau day. Actually I think he was executed. Do something other than that. Have a really Good day :-)

Very some such,perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[Fu-Pow]

You are the most cryptic writer. Are you saying yes, Tai Chi has a "special" kind of pressure point fighting? If so, how does it differ from the pressure point striking in a art like crane? Would hitting a pressure point with a crane head strike and a tai chi palm have the same effect on the corresponding organ ie spitting blood? Or does Tai Chi actually "shock" the opponent, with "chi"? Or is it that you are able to generate more pounds per square inch in Tai Chi and therefore able to hit pressure points harder?

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/logo.gif
"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

[honorisc]

You are the most cryptic writer.
Are you saying yes, Tai Chi has a "special" kind of pressure point fighting? If so, how does it differ from the pressure point striking in a art like crane?

Difference? There can be.

Chee is like hydrolics the more flow, the stronger the machine. An erection; the less the flow (blood)the weaker (less strong) it is. The more flow (blood), the stronger (firmer) it is. Like train stations the points or cave entrances are. Shutting down one can disrupt the train line forward of that station. Dead lymph does not break through the skin~ it fills up a pore. The pore or point is smaller than the amount of stuff that is there. There is sharp pain or burning sensation when there is pressure to force the dead lymph along the pore which opens. The opening of the pore is what pains or burns. When there is a delay in flow at any of the stations; as with any traffic flow jamming, is some kind of bad, usually. When the traffic flow is as the Autobond meets Gran Prix auto racing, a slowing down of flow at central points(curves)reduces, bad stuff that can happen. The long needles of accupuncture are used to reach these points (caves) through skins and muscles, to where the caves are.
"Are you saying yes, Tai Chi has a "special" kind of pressure point fighting? If so, how does it differ from the pressure point striking in a art like crane?"

T'ai Chee Quan and Arts like Crane can use energy and force(brute/muscular). An Art like Crane uses more force than energy (usually). Taijiquan uses more energy than force (at all times). Both can hit the places that they touch. but T'ai Ch'i Ch'uan can direct it's energy through the muscles and skins to affect the accupuncture points. Not only points it touches with the striking area, but also surrounding points or areas or both. Arts like Crane affect skin and muscles. But only with chee do they affect only the muscles or penetrate to effect the meridian.

Would hitting a pressure point with a crane head strike and a tai chi palm have the same effect on the corresponding organ ie spitting blood?

Not necessarily.

When I hear crane head strike I think of what I've heard referred to as crane's beak strike or crane's bill strike. With the striking area being the back of the hand instead of the fingertips. But I think that you are referring to what I might call a crane's beak strike and the contact area being fingertips.

I think that not every organ affected by a "pressure point" strike causes spitting-up of blood. A Crane strike might burst or rupture an organ with its force (brute,momentum...whatever) by compressing the skins, muscles and fluids straight-line between point of contact outside and organ inside. However, a Crane strike without chee leading or transfered through does not disrupt accupuncture point(s) enough, if at all, to cause the spitting-up of nor coughing-up of blood. A Taijiquan strike can produce this result of spittin-up of or coughing up of blood given that it affects an organ meridian sufficiently that supports that type of damage result. (huhhh, huhhh...catch my breath...:-))

Or does Tai Chi actually "shock" the opponent, with "chi"?

Tai Qi is limited merely by the imagination~. I cannot know every application of Tai chee. But as to current recollection there is no Capcom Street Fighter™ arcade game character Blanka effect by Chee~

Or is it that you are able to generate more pounds per square inch in Tai Chi and therefore able to hit pressure points harder?

For accupuncture points, the better control and development of Chee the less harder matters. There is at least a theory that everything is made-up of chee. So(needle and thread), either the pounds per square inch thing you mentioned or a better cooperation with the chee of the object to be affected, allowing subatomic manipulation of the involved thingies determined by intention and or or thought.


Perhaps some-such


"presure points" are musculotendonal-ligamentular which inhibits mechanical functioning (the Holland's boot or the American's(?)monkey wrench in the machinery). This can cause imobilization, pain, diziness, deafness or death. But with Understanding, different pressure or same pressure with chee, the points clear asthma, break fever stop infections improve the internal and or or external organ's health and condition.

Pressure points are not necessarily accupuncture points. Accupuncture points can be pressure points.

A coin has three sides and two faces.

There might have been something else, but perhaps enough for now. I hope that this is approaching answering the questions in your mind that you tried to address-ish..:-)

Very some such,perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[les paul]

An excellent book offering a scientific look at the differences between internal and external approaches to martial arts.

The Author focuses on relaxation and the training of coordinating movements in internal arts, rather than the reflexive speed movements and strength/endurence of the body in external arts.
A huge eye opener as far as I'm concerned.

Paul
Michigan