David Kash vs Royal Dragon.

[lamakwoklee]

I'm curious. Is northern Tai Tzu Chang Quan taught in the U.S? Are there reputable instructors of good lineage within the continental 48 states? What forms does Tai Tzu Chang Quan consist of? Are there weapon as well as bare hand forms, or is the system strictly bare-hand? Is there media available in which Tai Tzu Chang Quan is demonstrated?

[Water Dragon]

Royal Dragon in




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[Royal Dragon]

Yes, there is legit Tai tzu in the USA, it's just not common.

I know MAster gus Rubio out of Miami has a very good tai Tzu system. One of his seniors is our very own Sifu Abel, so you may want to shoot him a PM, and I have been able to collect and authenticate a good amount of it from various lineages too.

The style has both emptyhand, and weapons forms.

If you google Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, you will find plumb productions, and http://www.cmaod.com/ have VCD'S with the original form, and a few others.

Also, here is a clip of one branch's Tai Tzu Chang Chuan form so you can see what it looks like. This set is common in Taiwan.



http://www.yangsandover.com/videos.shtml?page=Li1

[Chu]

As taught by my father, the real secret is not in the names of the forms, but the diagrams and the Gua then the correspondences. Names are for sections only. All "Tai Tzu" means is Grand Progenitor (Supreme Ancestor/ The Founder of the Dynasty) NO OTHER MEANING. Genghis Khan was called Tai Tzu Genghis Khan founder of Yuan Dynasty. Over all this is called Jing Yan Pai (Emperical method).

From my family style, with out Gua there is nothing. 18 family styles came from this style and was used first by family then body guards and then army. Chang San Feng was not the founder of Taiji, it was founded by Chu family arts in the Chu Pao Fortress then taught General Chen. Geat amount of information to be told.

Great forum to learn, but be cautious of people.

Yuk-Hing

[lamakwoklee]

Thank you for your responses to my question. I've found the 32 move Tai Tzu form I've seen to be graceful and flowing with many good techniques. It resembles a combination of Hong "Red" fist boxing and Mi Zong without the "pauses" or "poses". All this within a relatively short form. I'm interested in learning more about this system. I'm particularly interested in the variations practiced in Hebei Prov. and Taiwan.

Chu, I followed your post for the most part, but I'm confused about what you mean by Gua. What are Gua? Do you mean diagrams as in illustrations, followed by the Gua, and then correspondence as I'm corresponding with you now? Is Gua specific to Tai Tzu or is it a general CMA concept?

[Royal Dragon]

I belive the comercially avaliable tai tzu tape is only the first road of that form. The rest has not been released by Shaolin as of yet (That I know of anyway). I hear it's written in the manuals, but only the names of the postures are listed, no transitions.

[svenfeynord]

Does ShaoLin keep all records of all the forms? If it is just the names of the postures how do they know the form? Maybe only the high priests know of the forms. Where can I get tapes from ShaoLin of Tai Tzu Chang Chuan?

[Royal Dragon]

Wing lam has them, as does plumb productions. You can also find VCD's of the form here www.cmaod.com

I am sure that the Monks know the whole set.

[lamakwoklee]

I'm still curious. What does "Gua" mean? Is it a term that applies only to Tai Tzu Quan, or is it a general CMA concept?

[BruceSteveRoy]

Royal Dragon in




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lmao. i was thinking that as soon as i started reading the question

[BruceSteveRoy]

i am assuming that the gua are the trigrams from the i ching. the same ones from baguazhang. but i could be wrong since i am not familiar with tai tzu.

[shaolinche]

Thank you for your responses to my question. I've found the 32 move Tai Tzu form I've seen to be graceful and flowing with many good techniques. It resembles a combination of Hong "Red" fist boxing and Mi Zong without the "pauses" or "poses". All this within a relatively short form. I'm interested in learning more about this system. I'm particularly interested in the variations practiced in Hebei Prov. and Taiwan.

Chu, I followed your post for the most part, but I'm confused about what you mean by Gua. What are Gua? Do you mean diagrams as in illustrations, followed by the Gua, and then correspondence as I'm corresponding with you now? Is Gua specific to Tai Tzu or is it a general CMA concept?

There are different variations of Tai Zu chang Quan even in Taiwan. The Tai Zu Chang Quan that I practice has three forms there is Tai Zu Chang Quan yi lu (first road), Tai Zu Chang Quan er lu ( second road), and Tai Zu chang quan dui da (two man form). My Grandmaster moved from Shandong to Taiwan and taught in Taiwan. The forms that we practice are unique and I haven't seen them anywhere else besides students of my Grandmaster in Taiwan and my father.

[Royal Dragon]

shaolinche,
One of these days, we are going to have to hook up. I would love to see those sets!

[lamakwoklee]

Thank you Shaolinche for your very direct and non-esoteric answers. I think if more people skilled in Tai Tzu Quan would share even basic knowledge, it would deny charlatans the ability to lay claim to knowledge they don't have, and lineage that doesn't exist. I think the various branches, and lineages of Tai Tzu Quan are not quite as rare as some would have us believe. It's only that not many qualified to teach have come together to preserve the knowledge in a systematic way.

[Oso]

Thank you Shaolinche for your very direct and non-esoteric answers. I think if more people skilled in Tai Tzu Quan would share even basic knowledge, it would deny charlatans the ability to lay claim to knowledge they don't have, and lineage that doesn't exist. I think the various branches, and lineages of Tai Tzu Quan are not quite as rare as some would have us believe. It's only that not many qualified to teach have come together to preserve the knowledge in a systematic way.


word.


and that's a microcosm of the whole problem with TCMA.

[Royal Dragon]

Tai Tzu is rather common in China, and Taiwan, just not in the US. Even that being said, there is more of it here than meets the eye.

Tai Tzu was spread VERY prolifically through the military during the Ming dynasty. It was also spread by the Chao family, and the Shaolin temple during the Sung dynasty.

Because of this, there were many, many lines. Tai Tzu is probably the widest spread Chinese art there is. Because of this, complete Tai Tzu lines vary in size and curriculem, and each has it's own evolution. Some branches today are just a single form. Many are three forms, or one form taught in 3 sections. Some are 10 or 12 sets, others still are 2 forms, the original 32, and one really HUGE set that is 18 sections long (common in Hubei i believe)

All branches are very similar despite the size though. You can see by the flavor,and the presence of several, to all of the original 32 techniques in every form. You can't just do a modern Chin Woo form, and call it Tai Tzu because both are Long fist. Tai Tzu has distinct techniques and flavor found in every form. You also can't do Tai Chi, and call it Tai Tzu. The arts are too different.

[Robert Young]

lamakwoklee,

> Is northern Tai Tzu Chang Quan taught in the U.S?
Yes, there are some Long Fist people are teaching in US.

Our Long Fist has a form called Tai Tzu Chang Chuan (Tai Tzu Long Fist). It is a form shown by Royal Dragon, http://www.yangsandover.com/videos.shtml?page=Li1. it is not a system. The Tai Tzu 1st and 2end forms shaolinche practicing are also forms not a system. In Taiwan, there is a southern shaolin system called Tai Tzu Chuan. That is a system and has empty forms and weapons. The system was from Fu Jian province a centry ago or maybe longer.

I have seen from a tape shown northern shaolin form with Tai Tzu Chan Chuan 1st and 2end forms too. It's different from our version.

Chinese like to name their forms after something or someone famous.

Cheers,

[lamakwoklee]

Again thank you to those who've provided helpful commentary, and information. I believe the more knowledge that's put out about authenitc Tai Tzu Quan the better for the art. I'm still rather hazy about what Northern Tai Tzu Chang Quan consists of, and the location of Qualified instructors. For instance is there a Tai Tzu version of Pong Lai, or Wu Tang?

[Robert Young]

I don't know about Pong Lai version of it. But, if their Tai Tzu Chang Chuan was from Long Fist in Taiwan, then it is our version. I believe Wu Tang's version is ours since several people like Adam Hsu in Wu Tang was Long Fist people. They learned their Tai Tzu Chang Chuan through their senior LF brothers. Our version is the most taught Tai Tzu Chang Chuan in Taiwan and probably here in states also. I'm not saying it is the best, simply because there are more teachers teaching LF in Taiwan, especially in 1960-1990.

Cheers,

[lamakwoklee]

Oops! I was writing in a hurry so i didn't define, and limit context the way I usually do. I didn't literally mean a Pong Lai or Wutang version of Tai Tzu Quan. I meant is there an organization whose mission is specifically to do for Tai Tzu Quan what Pong Lai and Wu Tang do for Praying Mantis.

[Royal Dragon]

Here is where it gets confusing. Tai Tzu very much can be a complete system in a single form. That is how it started out. It's similar to Taiji Quan like that. It can also have many forms depending on each lines evolution. we are talking abut a style that is over 1000 years old, and was spread prolifically by the military.

There are just too many ancient branches of it out there to nail it down by looking at the curriculum of a system. The art is in the techniques in the form, and "How" they are performed. All legit tai tzu sets have some, or all of the original 32 moves in the set. there are several main branches, each with their own expression. You have to know what those are, and compare in order to identify it.

You can see shadows of it in modern arts as well. Take Chen Taiji. You see many individual techniques in Chen Taiji, that are also in Tai tzu, and some North mantis styles actually have Tai Tzu forms in their curriculum, as do many Long fist styles.

The only way to really get it, is to collect as much of it as you can, and compare, compare, compare. Once you do, you begin to se what it is, and what is not. Claims that modern Taiji Forms are Tai Tzu begin to look ridiculous, as to claims that Chin woo Long Fist forms are Tai Tzu also look ridiculous. But you can look at really old Shaolin Hong fist, and see they are definitely Tai Tzu sets or Tai Tzu derived sets.

Tai Tzu also has different branches, form different time periods. From what I can tell, the style was perfected during the Ming dynasty. I believe lineages for the Ming are smoother than the older stuff. Like the form I linked to before. The old Tai Tzu is more ugly.

[Oso]

You can see shadows of it in modern arts as well. Take Chen Taiji. You see many individual techniques in Chen Taiji, that are also in Tai tzu, and some North mantis styles actually have Tai Tzu forms in their curriculum, as do many Long fist styles.

which mantis sets do you identify at TZ?

[Royal Dragon]

The Tiger Swallow sets.

[shuaichiao]

Not sure how good this is but here ya go.

http://www.shaolinbrand.com/88612dvd.html

[Royal Dragon]

That dvd is VERY good! it's full of legit Tai Tzu sets!

[Oso]

The Tiger Swallow sets.


hunh, ok. I don't think those are in my line, I'll ask Kevin.

thanks.

[lamakwoklee]

I take credit for asking Shaolinbrand to make that video available again. As I understand, it was part of the China Martial Arts Survey series. They've reintroduced it and at a good price too. I'm not claiming to be all powerful, but if you let them know that you want it, they'll sell it. I wonder what other gems are contained in that series.

Can anyone tell me what other media contains Tai Tzu Quan? I heard a rumor about Green Dragon studios having something. I haven't felt like going to the hassle of trying to contact them. Wait three months for the brochure you've requested, then six months to recieve your order. By the way, I have no affiliation with Chin Wu, though it's an honorable organization with a long and illustrious history. I'm also no expert in Tai Tzu Quan. I just think it's a rather handsome style.

[Royal Dragon]

I know plumb productions has some good VCDs ;)

[lamakwoklee]

Plumb Publications is excellent. A good source for material that can't be found anywhere else. For Tai Tzu Quan however I'm not so sure. I saw a clip from a VCD featuring a monk in a long jacket. He looked pretty cool, but as for the Tai Tzu form he was showing, I wasn't impressed. It was very square looking with many movements obscured by the long coat.

[Royal Dragon]

Some examples of Tai Tzu

The original form of the emperor (supposedly)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8Ap1Ee9ftPY&search=taizu

http://www.yangsandover.com/videos.shtml?page=Li1

Little Tiger Swollow
http://homepage.mac.com/stevefarrell/images/mantis_form.mov

Sifu Abel's Tai Tzu in action
http://home.earthlink.net/~sifuabel/FightClip.wmv

[shuaichiao]

Some examples of Tai Tzu



Little Tiger Swollow
http://homepage.mac.com/stevefarrell/images/mantis_form.mov

I learned that form or close to it from Dr. Yang years ago. He considers it primarly a mantis form which draws some strategy and technique from longfist.

I also learned the Tai Tzu Chuan set from his andover branches site. Both are great forms with great techniques in them.

[Royal Dragon]

It's interesting that, that form is considered a Mantis set. I showed it to a Tai Tzu Hong Chuan freind of mine in Australia, and he recognised it as a HONG Chuan set. It's not from his branch of Tai Tzu Hong Chuan, but if you compare it to the pefromance of the other set I linked to, you see certain markers...or techniques that are done in both sets, in the same order. There are many moves inbetween that are different, but the ones in common are in the same order within the two sets.

My guess is that it is a Tai Tzu Hong Chuan set that was incorperated into Mantis early on.

I have talked to others over the years who also consider all 3 Tiger Swollow sets to be Tai Tzu Hong Chuan sets incorperated into Mantis.

I also have footage of John Wang doing the Tai Tzu set above, but I don't know how to upoad it here, and i cannot find the original links to his performance online. His is an excellent exibition of the set.

[Maxwang]

Thank you for your responses to my question. I've found the 32 move Tai Tzu form I've seen to be graceful and flowing with many good techniques. It resembles a combination of Hong "Red" fist boxing and Mi Zong without the "pauses" or "poses". All this within a relatively short form. I'm interested in learning more about this system. I'm particularly interested in the variations practiced in Hebei Prov. and Taiwan.

Chu, I followed your post for the most part, but I'm confused about what you mean by Gua. What are Gua? Do you mean diagrams as in illustrations, followed by the Gua, and then correspondence as I'm corresponding with you now? Is Gua specific to Tai Tzu or is it a general CMA concept?


A gua is a melon. Like xi gua (watermelon). Or tuo xi gua (watermelon head) :p

[Royal Dragon]

Can anyone tell me what other media contains Tai Tzu Quan? I heard a rumor about Green Dragon studios having something. I haven't felt like going to the hassle of trying to contact them. Wait three months for the brochure you've requested, then six months to recieve your order. By the way, I have no affiliation with Chin Wu, though it's an honorable organization with a long and illustrious history. I'm also no expert in Tai Tzu Quan. I just think it's a rather handsome style.


Reply]
I have the Green Dragon tapes. They look like some sort of Tai Tzu Hong Chuan, but the performance is so bad, it's hard to really make it out properly.

Also, it says right on the tape that the set is not pure, but a Tai tzu/ Five Animals hybred.

I think it would take a LOT of work to restore it, and one would have to be well versed in Tai tzu to do it. At that point there would not be a need in the first place.

[B-Rad]

It's interesting that, that form is considered a Mantis set. I showed it to a Tai Tzu Hong Chuan freind of mine in Australia, and he recognised it as a HONG Chuan set. It's not from his branch of Tai Tzu Hong Chuan, but if you compare it to the pefromance of the other set I linked to, you see certain markers...or techniques that are done in both sets, in the same order. There are many moves inbetween that are different, but the ones in common are in the same order within the two sets.

It looks like it has alot in common with the mizong quan form that I know...

[Royal Dragon]

Thank you for your responses to my question. I've found the 32 move Tai Tzu form I've seen to be graceful and flowing with many good techniques. It resembles a combination of Hong "Red" fist boxing and Mi Zong without the "pauses" or "poses". All this within a relatively short form. I'm interested in learning more about this system. I'm particularly interested in the variations practiced in Hebei Prov. and Taiwan.

Reply]
It is said the Emperor developed Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, and the Hong Chuan and passed both to Shaolin. I am sure Shaolin added thier own evolutions to them, but the similarities stem from both styles originateing from the same source.


The reall Old Sung dynasty Shaolin Hong Chaun is Tai Tzu derived, the new "Flood" fist Hong Chuan from the Yuan dyansty is not.

[Oso]

Not really surprising with Tai Tzu being the first style listed in the 18 styles poem about mantis.

Here is one rendition of that poem...don't remember who to to credit this to...certainly not me.

The "Long Punching" Form of the first Emperor of Sung Dynasty
The "through back" Form of Han Tung
The "Enclosing" Movements of Cheng En
The "Short punching" Form of Wen Yuen
The "Short range attacks" of Ma Chi
The "Monkey-Form" kung fu of Hsuan Huan
The "leaning On" Kung fu of Huang Chien
the "palm thrust at face"techniques of Mien Shih
The " clasped hands through punch" of Chin Hsiang
The "Grappling and dragging with heavy chopping fist" attacking methods of Huai Teh
The "hook, grapple and pluck " techniques of Liu Hsing
The "Rolling in and punch at ear" Kung Fu of Tan Fang
The "touching and throwing" Techniques of Yan Ching
The strong "Alternate kicks" of Lin Chung
The "seven styles chain-punches" Form of Meng su
The "chopping punch at breast" of Tsui Lien
The "rolling drag and punch" Techniques of Yang Kun
The "praying mantis Styles" of Wang Lang as a big combination

[Royal Dragon]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FBq-gluczeY&search=stupid%20people

[Maxwang]

those are real tuo xi gua

[MasterKiller]

Some examples of Tai Tzu

Little Tiger Swollow
http://homepage.mac.com/stevefarrell...antis_form.mov

That's one of my core sets.

[Robert Young]

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Royal Dragon
> Some examples of Tai Tzu

> Little Tiger Swollow
> http://homepage.mac.com/stevefarrell...antis_form.mov

Thiss one is definitely a PM form. The performer is master Gao Dao-Sheng who leraned the form from GM Wang Song-Ting. Our LF version of Little Tiger Swallow is also came from 7 star PM GM Wang Song-Ting. My teacher was taught the form directly from GM Wong through my LF GM Han Qing-Tang's request. Later, my teacher taught the form to his LF brothers. That was also how LF people in Taiwan leaned this form. Some people did not know the history, and thought this form is a LF form because it came from some LF people. But, it is a PM form.

We also have Big Tiger Swallow. From the form, it shows much more PM trade mark moves. Historically, Little, middle, and Big Tiger Swallow forms are one of the core forms from Praying Mantis.

Cheers,

[MasterKiller]

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Royal Dragon
> Some examples of Tai Tzu

> Little Tiger Swollow
> http://homepage.mac.com/stevefarrell...antis_form.mov

Thiss one is definitely a PM form. The performer is master Gao Dao-Sheng who leraned the form from GM Wang Song-Ting. Our LF version of Little Tiger Swallow is also came from 7 star PM GM Wang Song-Ting. My teacher was taught the form directly from GM Wong through my LF GM Han Qing-Tang's request. Later, my teacher taught the form to his LF brothers. That was also how LF people in Taiwan leaned this form. Some people did not know the history, and thought this form is a LF form because it came from some LF people. But, it is a PM form.

We also have Big Tiger Swallow. From the form, it shows much more PM trade mark moves. Historically, Little, middle, and Big Tiger Swallow forms are one of the core forms from Praying Mantis.

Cheers,

These are also core forms of Korean Long Fist.

Lin Pin Zhang and Jiang Kyung Fang influenced Long Fist practice (particularly from Lee De Jiang aka Lee Duk Kang) in and around Seoul.

So, these forms are played with a much stronger Long Fist flavor.

[Royal Dragon]

Does anyone know how the Tiger swollow sets got into Mantis?

[MasterKiller]

Does anyone know how the Tiger swollow sets got into Mantis?

Mantis people say Wang Lang invented them, based on Shaolin Longfist.

[Robert Young]

Geographically, Long Fist and Praying Mantis are all popular in Sang Dong province, China. That is also where my GM Han and GM Wong came from. GM Wong taught at Qing-Dao Guo Shu Guan in early 1900. GM Han also deeply related to the place. Both of them knew each other then way before they came to Taiwan. I would not be supprised that LF people from that area also learned PM forms and PM people learned LF form, because Qing Dao Guo Shu Guan taught both systems. Several PM masters in Taiwan were also very good at Shuai Chaio because they learned it form the school.

Most of the CMA in Korea also came from Sang Dong province. So, LF mixed with PM or PM mixed with LF should not be a suprise. But, PM form has its unique way of doing things, so is LF. The ways to practice them are very different. Some people just did not learn the difference, this include many of my LF brothers under my teacher.

There is another form called Si Lu Beng Da also exist in LF and PM. They are the same form, although there are some different moves in LF version and PM version in this form. But, the way to practice them are different according to their own flavor in each system.

Cheers,

[Royal Dragon]

Geographically, Long Fist and Praying Mantis are all popular in Sang Dong province, China. That is also where my GM Han and GM Wong came from. GM Wong taught at Qing-Dao Guo Shu Guan in early 1900. GM Han also deeply related to the place. Both of them knew each other then way before they came to Taiwan. I would not be supprised that LF people from that area also learned PM forms and PM people learned LF form, because Qing Dao Guo Shu Guan taught both systems. Several PM masters in Taiwan were also very good at Shuai Chaio because they learned it form the school.

Reply]
Interesting. There is a lot of Tai Tzu in Shan Dong. I'm told it is common there. That all being said, I bet the little Tiger Swollow at least came from Tai tzu, The middle and big Tiger Swollow may have beed devised by PM players later.

[Robert Young]

> That all being said, I bet the little Tiger Swollow at least came from Tai tzu, The
> middle and big Tiger Swollow may have beed devised by PM players later.

I can not say about other systems, but in Long Fist, Tai Tzu Chang Chuan is only a form not a system. Our Long Fist did not have Little Tiger Swallow form. Most of the people from other systems in Taiwan I know who have learned LTS all learned from Praying Mantis. Maybe there are other thing I don't know, but I have not seen anyone whose LTS did not come from PM. And, I have been in CMA society for 35+ years.

As how the Big, Middle, and Little Tiger Swallow got evolved, I would guess it all came from a big form. Later, people make it into 3 different forms. The reason I say this is because that is a common practice in CMA. For example, LF has Mai-Fu forms. First and second forms are most commonly practiced today. But, Both of them came from the same big form. Because the form was too big, people has hard time to learn and practice it. Our ancestors broke the form into several forms so that each form practice certain features of the big form. I have seen people pratice Mai-Fu with both first and second forms integrated together.

Like I said before, the only Tai Tzu as a name for a system I know is a southern CMA in Taiwan and it was from Fu Jian province located rught across the straight from Taiwan. It has nothing to do with Praying Mantise at all. Maybe there are other Tai Tzu in other parts of China, but those are the only Tai Tzu I know.

Cheers,

[MasterKiller]

I posted these videos in the "Palm Kung Fu" thread.

While these guys aren't that good (some of them stumble and lose balance), you can see the form is played with a more Long Fist flavor.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search=little+tiger+swallow&search_type=search_videos

[Royal Dragon]

Robert Young,
Tai tzu is very much a complete system with many branches. In addition to that, you have bits an peices of it scattered through out a large number of Long Fist styles.

The Southern is younger than the Northern. technically they are different styles, but with roots in the same imperial family.

[Robert Young]

> While these guys aren't that good (some of them stumble and lose balance),
> you can see the form is played with a more Long Fist flavor.


I don't see any of our LF flavor in those clips actually. I don't know how you see it. If they are LF moves, then they are the best bad examples of LF moves. Also, LF does not has Diao Sou (hook) next to the head, that is typical PM moves. Besides, the persons performed the form were way too slow. With that kind of speed, you can not tell what style they are actually. PM supposed to be fast, so is LF.

Like I said before, Lots of LF people who learned LTS did not understand the difference between LF and PM. And, later they kind of mix them together. But, that does not mean it is correct to do it that way. PM is PM, LF is LF. Fortunately, there is no conflict to practice both of them (some systems do).

Cheers,

[shuaichiao]

I've gotta figure out whats wrong with my video capture/editing software. I have a really good video of this form from my lineage and you can clearly see all the mantis hook techniques used through out the form.

[Shaolin Master]

Xiao Huyan (小虎燕) is from mizongquan/yanqingquan. It is not from Taizu Changquan.

A derived version has been passed in seven star praying mantis (Which was predominantly influenced by Wang Rongsheng and co, and lies along with Cha Chui, Si Lu Beng Da etc which are also from mizongquan).

Fujian (or Southern) Taizuquan is not related to Northern Taizu Changquan other than in legend. The reality is they are completely different in principle, energics and content. Fujian Taizuquan is indigenous to the region and is the muquan or mother fist of fujian.

Regards
Wu Chanlong

[Royal Dragon]

Thank You!! Your input is allways appreciated!!

[Oso]

Mantis people say Wang Lang invented them, based on Shaolin Longfist.

huh?

generally only Beng Bu, Lien Jie(sp?) and Ba Zhou are credited to WL.

[MasterKiller]

huh?

generally only Beng Bu, Lien Jie(sp?) and Ba Zhou are credited to WL.

Xiao Hu Yan Quan is sometimes said to be the first form he created, before Beng Bu. That's what some guys say, anyway. Something about seeing a painting of a crane fighting a tiger at Shaolin Temple that inspired him to create the form.

[Oso]

heh, ok. It's all legend anyway. No way to prove what WL actually created or even real proof that he existed.

no matter. though, I've never run across that he created the Tiger Swallow sets at all....maybe something from the CCM line since they claim so many sets. Not dissing them at all...I think Sifu Albright or others in that line would be welcome to share more.

one thing I've thunk, is that since Beng Bu supposedly captures all the Keywords...and some recent speculation has it that most forms aren't really that old at all...that WL may have come up with the Keywords as theory or technique and then someone else created the form much later...assuming that 'kung fu' prior to...let's say 1800, had no forms at all but was more like MMA training today in that the guys doing it had real need of fighting skill but not a lot of need to look good. So, time wasn't spent on memorizing forms but more on beating the crap out of each other in a friendly way so that others, in a not so friendly way, wouldn't kill them.

just a thunk.

:cool:

;)

[MasterKiller]

Your input is allways appreciated!!
LOL.

That's RD's way of saying "your info does not fit into my solipsistic viewpoint that everything comes from Tai Tzu, but thanks for trying".

[Royal Dragon]

Actually no, the man is a trusted research resource for me. I genuenly appreciate his imput.

[svenfeynord]

Dear Master Yuk Hing,

I have searched online and on this forum for tai chi chuan. I have found various styles and come to the conclusion that tai tzu chang chuan is the style I wish to study. Every other style I have looked at seems not worth while. The photo clips on this website, from shao lin, taiwan, and from other companies I have viewed all look like karate and hard forms. I know that real tai chi/tai tzu surely does not look like this. I have seen you and your father's notes on tai chi and I was very impressed. I wish to learn more from you. Money is no object and I will pay you whatever your price is. I will pay for over night shipping. Can you send me any DVD's or videos and information you would be willing to provide? Any of this information will be greatly appreciated.

I will also contact you through private messages with my address and get your address to send you my check. If postal money order is neccessary one can be provided. I also have a paypal account if that helps. I can overnight you the money to Canada if this will be the easiest method. I will pay for all shipping fees.

Thank you sincerely,
Sven

[Royal Dragon]

:rolleyes:




















.................................................. .................................................. ..............................

[Oso]

good lord..........

[mantis108]

Dang, I should have done my Taiji better had I known this is a gold mine!:eek: BTW, I have a family secret form that's handed down for centuries created from the code hidden in the Tang Dynasty poems collection. Would you want that for a mere million dollars? I only want to be an instant millionaire so that I could got get Anna Nicole Smith to stay a month with me. :D See I am such a kind hearted Chinese that I don't want your soul for the contract. ;)

Seriously, caveat emptor is the best policy. If you do have money to burn, why not donate it to some good causes or may be charity? Better yet, private charity case like my personal vactions fund. :D

Mantis108

[neilhytholt]

This forum is too hard to stay away from.

Nobody with any brains or financial sense EVER says 'price is no object'.

You won't find Warren Buffett, George Soros, Bill Gates, Donald Trump or anybody ever saying 'price is no object.'

Okay, I've got all the secret Tai Zu forms, only 9 trillion $$$.

You'll wire the money to my Swiss Account, right? No, wait, I want it all as Gold Bullion, fedexed to my house immediately.

LMAO

[Royal Dragon]

I will sell him everything I have on Tai Tzu for a mear $160,000.00 :D

[neilhytholt]

I will sell him everything I have on Tai Tzu for a mear $160,000.00 :D

If I had any Tai Tzu, I'd sell it to him. But ??? Why would anybody want to pay so much for just videos?

[jethro]

I am also wanting all these super secret styles. I will give you 40,000 yen. your decision?

[Chu]

Hello, Svenfeynord, yes I can send you a dvd of my father doing an old form and some tai ji rule we will give you a member card too.

Thank you. I hope other sincere people will want to learn this rare art too instead of making jokes about it. Those type will recieve nothing at all.

It was my fathers hope to share some information, with sincere students such as you, however this may not be possible. I believe you are really looking for the help and truth about our family style.


Yuk Hing

[neilhytholt]

Hello, Svenfeynord, yes I can send you a dvd of my father doing an old form and some tai ji rule we will give you a member card too.

Thank you. I hope other sincere people will want to learn this rare art too instead of making jokes about it. Those type will recieve nothing at all.

It was my fathers hope to share some information, with sincere students such as you, however this may not be possible. I believe you are really looking for the help and truth about our family style.


Yuk Hing

Part of the thing about this whole dialogue, is who really cares about forms? You can buy all the supposedly rare forms on VCD from China that you want. Forms means nothing.

Your description of your father's old notes reads the same as pretty much any tai chi textbook.

So coming onto a forum without much introduction, claiming you have some great rare style, and then getting mad when people think you sound a little funny is kindof wrong.

But it looks like you caught a fish, or maybe somebody just playing with you, so great!

[Royal Dragon]

Anyone notice all the new Tai Tzu related posts latey? Except me and Sifu Abel, they are ALL from people who signed up in the last few months.

Coincedentally, they all seem to be flocking around Chu as well. One even signed up the same day as him.

In all honesty, I have done the searchig for rare styles thing, and except for a few real gems, I have found that they are useually nothing more than comon main stream styles that have been arranged diferently.

Take Chao style taiji. I have not found ANYTHING in the system, that is not also in Yang, or Chen Taiji.

Tai Tzu is really cool, and *I* love the art. I have done great research into it, and discovered some really rare sets. But still, when you break it down into it's core techniques, it's still basically Long Fist. It's supposed to be an internal Long Fist, and has body mechanics similar to Chen style, but it is still Long Fist none the less.

No matter what art you study (there are thousands of them really), no matter how many styles there are, they ALL run on a rather small set of principals.

Don't get me wrong, I love the rare stuff too, but if you were to take say, Taiji Ruler, and break it down to it's core principals, you will find they are taught in all internal styles. That is why it is a great set of Qi Gong's, because you learn the core of internal movment within it's simple series of exercises. Is it the *Only* place you can learn them?.................. no.

You can get everything the Taiji Ruler has to offer from Li hu Ba Fa's 12 animals, or Bagua's 8 palms, any Tai Chi system, or any numer of Qi Gong systems and martial arts sporting an internal nature.

The forms, and Qi Gong's are just containers for the core essence, and once you can look past the containers, you will find those core essences are not so rare.

[neilhytholt]

IMHO the only people trying to peddle off their MA forms as so rare and valuable are people trying to make an easy buck.

[Royal Dragon]

Hmm, I tend to agree with you. I have found some really rare gems, especially in Tai tzu sets. in each case, the form was not presented as being rare. n fact, in one case I found one of the rarest Tai Tzu sets to date, and it was passed to me freely. I really belive the gentiileman did not know what he had, but still those who care about the art will pass rare sets, and not even make mention of the fact.

Others on the other hand, spend a *Great* deal of energy trying to make common and modern Taiji systems (For instance) *Appear* rare, when the only thing really rare is the order in which the techniquies are choreagraphed during the performance.

The techniques themselves are commonly found in most Taiji systems, and ultimately, they are not rare at all. It's just the individual attempting to make it so to jock up the perceived value so they can charge $160,000 (as an example) for common material.

[neilhytholt]

I know nothing about Tai Tzu. But, I have yet to find anything in taiji that isn't in long fist.

I don't know what would make a form so rare and valuable, because I have gotten breakdowns of some forms people were charging hundreds of dollars for, and they just contain basic long fist moves.

So IMHO people charging a ton are just trying to make a lot of money. Either that, or they got told a line of hookum by whoever taught them.

But I could be wrong. Has happened before. :)

[Royal Dragon]

I tend to agree.

Taiji really isn't about what techniques it containes, it's more about "How" they are performed.

Like I said above, the form is the container, whats IN that container is what is important. That is not all that rare at all.

[neilhytholt]

I tend to agree.

Taiji really isn't about what techniques it containes, it's more about "How" they are performed.

Like I said above, the form is the container, whats IN that container is what is important. That is not all that rare at all.

And different lineages do the same tai chi form differently. Like some so-called imperial palace Yang lineages really stretch out the moves in an exaggerated fashion in some lower stances, whereas some other lineages like Yang Jun do them really standing up.

IMHO spending years and years with one teacher doing a form without the applications is a waste of time, but others don't agree with this.

Basically I just think most people spend too much time worrying about lineage and form and the 'container' so to speak. Other people like me seem to waste too much time online. LOL

[Royal Dragon]

LOL!! We both waste too much time online!

You are right, too many worrie way to much about the container, and not enough about the contents.

[lamakwoklee]

I'm very suspicious of the latest trendy idea in the CMA of application is everything, traditional form is nothing. I think it's a fad, and untruth projected onto the CMA by Westerners who fail to grasp the true essence of the CMA. I think that if Chu and his father are legit, and are willing to provide the infos to the receptive, who not? I think videos of forms, along with written instruction may not produce mastery, but they at least give student, and instructor a place to start the conversation.

[jethro]

I am new to this, but have never heard of someone becoming great just by watching a video. 2 person drills are the only thing I can say helps by personal experience, but you have to train for the style you will do. Big movie guy as you can guess but tell me if I am wrong here. To learn say shaolin kung fu you would need to train for a while to get the physical condition to be able to train. And then once master killer can carry the water buckets up the hill and can smash his head onto the bags and make it through it, then he would learn the styles. Or frmo another movie-you would need to biuld your forearm and total armstrength up to learn mantis. Am I wrong?

[Royal Dragon]

You can learn a simple form, and it's applications rigth a way. Doing the form helps with the conditoning. But basically yeah, you need the conditioning or your Kung Fu will never be strong.

However, a style that depends on conditioining won't last you in the long run anyway.

You can USE the basic block and such as part of your condittioning though, so it all goes hand in hand.

You can start doing both side by side from day one.

[matt]

hey i would also be intrested in some dvd's or vhs's of this material for my notes, id perchase them if need be if there not too much im a street bum that does gung fu

thanks matt.

[jethro]

you just made me think of that bum fight vid where they pull the sheet off the bum, scare the living sheeit out of him and make him start fighting while he doesn't even know whethter he is away or asleep yet:)

[svenfeynord]

I don't know why you guys are being sarcastic. He did not want millions, thousands or even hundreds. His price is pretty low for what I am getting. Shipping was the highest cost.

[jethro]

hey, Matt just made me laugh REALLY hard there with his comment. I am talking coughing, falling out of my chair and crying. You may not have ever seen the bum fights. But anyway, I don't think you will learn a ton just by watching videos, other people are trying to tell you that this is at most a derivative of like southeren longfist. Hopefully somebody lives near this guy so they can actually meet him and mayeb train under his teaching, I just don't think you will be great at it by watching a dvd.

[Royal Dragon]

I tried the video learning thing years ago. What i found is that you can pick up the outside of the form, but unless you have good fundementals in the style, or a closely related style, you can't get it right.

If you have good, high level training partners, you can defenetlty add to your skills provided you work the material in real time just as you would anything else. But the key is to have training partners who are high enough of a level to work with, and you youself have to be of the same high level. A beginner will never get it right.

Then there is the internal like Taiji bagua, and Hsing I.

I ended up going to local talent for my internal mechanics. Internal is especially difficult because it really needs one on on, in person transmission. You Will never get it from video. There is too much "Feel" involved.

[neilhytholt]

I don't know why you guys are being sarcastic. He did not want millions, thousands or even hundreds. His price is pretty low for what I am getting. Shipping was the highest cost.

Don't mind us, we're actually helping you out.

As people who have 0 interest in what he's offering, anyway, by making fun of you, and of him, we are making him mad.

To get even with us, and not lose face, he'll be helpful to you and even offer you a great deal (if he's legit).

If he's not legit, then we make fun of him. Either way, you win. :)

[David Jamieson]

Hello, Svenfeynord, yes I can send you a dvd of my father doing an old form and some tai ji rule we will give you a member card too.

Thank you. I hope other sincere people will want to learn this rare art too instead of making jokes about it. Those type will recieve nothing at all.

It was my fathers hope to share some information, with sincere students such as you, however this may not be possible. I believe you are really looking for the help and truth about our family style.


Yuk Hing

:rolleyes:

you know, this kind of thing really pizzes me off, metaphorically speaking, because i don't really get pizzed off. lol


chu, you started your own mess, now lie in it.
you pop in a drop some moldy old confucian jibba jabba and are obviously looking for people who are soul searching opr on some sort of spiritual finding journey.

enter sven, who seems like an affable enough chap, but he also appears to reallyu be looking for something to fill a void he percieves in his life.

and what do you offer? an old video and a membership card?

ridiculous.

check that compass again, i think your hand is supposed to be west and your face east while the moon rises and wind blows out your ass.

[Royal Dragon]

Not to mention they both registered on the exact same day :rolleyes:

[neilhytholt]

Yeah, it's probably somebody messing with you. Especially coincidental after that guy posting about the Kash program or whatever.

[Royal Dragon]

My thoughts exactly.

[John Bean]

Master yuk hing:

can I also recieve a dvd from you sir? What is the cost?

I am a sincere student of tai chi etc. (enthusiast) for many years.

thank you for your help on anything you might be able to give in any way. I love tai

chi and all internal forms Pa Kua also. I happened to see this on the thread and it

attracted me immediately. I appologise for their idiotic behavior, not all Americans are

like them.

Thank you Sir

John Bean

[Chu]

We may wait and see. This other man, Sven, email me aprivate message and I was impressed with his sincerity, as he shared a lot about his private life to me. (I did not ask him to) but he did.

So please wait alittle while. You may email to me a private message also. Also, I am not a full Master, my Father is. I only have about 30 years experience. But thanks for the compliment. We must be carefull not to give good information to the wrong people, as my Fathers old notes have indicated earlier. I dont know if you seen this page.

Yuk Hing

[David Jamieson]

Master yuk hing:

can I also recieve a dvd from you sir? What is the cost?

I am a sincere student of tai chi etc. (enthusiast) for many years.

thank you for your help on anything you might be able to give in any way. I love tai

chi and all internal forms Pa Kua also. I happened to see this on the thread and it

attracted me immediately. I appologise for their idiotic behavior, not all Americans are

like them.

Thank you Sir

John Bean

bwahahahahahahaha.

new account chu?

i know i know, i need a different hobby. But man!

[Royal Dragon]

This whole thing has the feel of a cartoon script......

[jethro]

seriously now, if you can convice somebody you are a real person by a pm on this site, then you can write. i hve serious problems with this issue. I am wondering, did the character limit go up? If not, can I be your disciple in learnign how to express my thought to the computer. It would help much.

[David Jamieson]

apologizing for idiotic behaviour of americans isn't gonna win you the 20 bucks for your dvds compass orientation course.

idiotic is assuming people are idiots and will buy anything in a silk robe that smells like incense because it's exotic.

you know what's really exotic these days? Truth. Truth is exotic.

[Nick Monticello]

I think Chu is the real deal myself. I normally am just a lurker, but every once and a while a real master comes on the board, so I have to say Hi.

So, Hi Mr. Chu!

I would love to know more about your family style!

How many generations has your family done your style?

Where are you? do you teach in the US?

I see you have mentioned being willing to send DVD's of your family style. I'd love to see some! Would it be possible to post a clip as well? You don't have to put up a whole form, just the beginning of a few sets so we can get the feel would be great!

And don't listen to the bitter ones here, they see frauds where ever they look!!

[neilhytholt]

Somebody should systematize something like ninjitsu into forms and call it secret sub-ninja Japanese lightning boxing or something like that.

"Sub-ninja. More secret and deadly than the ninja, these clans were descended from the original mountain people of Japan who are remnants of an ancient civilization that existed on the island before it was overrun by Chinese invaders."

All these forms and more can be yours in DVD format for just $120,000. But you have to be sure not to make fun of any of these stories or doubt their credibility."

Edit ... **** I should have copyrighted that. Now somebody will probably use it to produce a new Anime series.

[jethro]

can I rename it? if so, I will give you$150,000.

But seriously, I would like to see Chu's response to Nick M's post, he asked some good questions, but doesn't seem to realize that this is called the freaking internet. Chu, thoughts?

[neilhytholt]

can I rename it? if so, I will give you$150,000.

But seriously, I would like to see Chu's response to Nick M's post, he asked some good questions, but doesn't seem to realize that this is called the freaking internet. Chu, thoughts?

See, you're not a good thief. You're supposed to steal the system or buy it on DVD for a low price, then modify a few movements, maybe do it in a square or a circle or something, then call it the 'super secret style' that you're the 'grandmaster' of.

Then you get the cult groupies, etc. If they ask you where you got it, you tell them some legitimate grandmaster who says he never heard of you, but then you just say that he's saying that because you're teaching the 'super-secret stuff' and he's mad at you.

Or you wait until somebody dies and then you claim that he taught you. Same thing, his legitimate heirs say they never heard of you and you say they're just being 'political'.

[neilhytholt]

Like next week I think I'm going to become the 32nd Grandmaster of 'Golden Tiger Leopard Liuhe Quan'. A top-secret lineage passed down within the Lung Men Dragon Gate Sect from Wu Tong Mountain from before the Tang dynasty.

I'm going to look up a dead Chinese guy in the obituary column and claim he taught it to me.

Then I'll take the basic forms of Hebei Xingyi, and change it so it uses tiger claws and leopard fists. Create a tiger-leopard 'ground form' from basic submission wrestling moves. Add a sparring emphasis with grappling and takedowns, so the students do well in MMA tournaments.

Make a fortune. Get all the celebrities studying it. Charge them $500 per hour or more for private lessons.

The poor guy's family will claim he never taught martial arts and they never heard of me, and I'll just say that 'the results speak for themselves' and he 'taught me as a closed door student'.

What do you think?

[David Jamieson]

Like next week I think I'm going to become the 32nd Grandmaster of 'Golden Tiger Leopard Liuhe Quan'. A top-secret lineage passed down within the Lung Men Dragon Gate Sect from Wu Tong Mountain from before the Tang dynasty.

I'm going to look up a dead Chinese guy in the obituary column and claim he taught it to me.

Then I'll take the basic forms of Hebei Xingyi, and change it so it uses tiger claws and leopard fists. Create a tiger-leopard 'ground form' from basic submission wrestling moves. Add a sparring emphasis with grappling and takedowns, so the students do well in MMA tournaments.

Make a fortune. Get all the celebrities studying it. Charge them $500 per hour or more for private lessons.

The poor guy's family will claim he never taught martial arts and they never heard of me, and I'll just say that 'the results speak for themselves' and he 'taught me as a closed door student'.

What do you think?

it's been done.

a thousand times over. :p

[neilhytholt]

it's been done.

a thousand times over. :p

Yep, yet still gullible people fall for it. Me, for example. LOL

[jethro]

I think Chu is the real deal myself. I normally am just a lurker, but every once and a while a real master comes on the board, so I have to say Hi.

So, Hi Mr. Chu!

I would love to know more about your family style!

How many generations has your family done your style?

Where are you? do you teach in the US?

I see you have mentioned being willing to send DVD's of your family style. I'd love to see some! Would it be possible to post a clip as well? You don't have to put up a whole form, just the beginning of a few sets so we can get the feel would be great!

And don't listen to the bitter ones here, they see frauds where ever they look!!


:confused:

[Chu]

Mr. Bean and Monticello

please send a private email meassage to me, like Mr. Sven did. He gave a lot of personal information, he sent his background and pictures too. This is the type of people we are looking for now, as you can see, from the previous posts, they start out real nice, if you give them something real Then they stab you in the back and ridicule you. These type will not get anything ever from us.

We are in Canada our family has 36 generations of our style. Maybe later on we will post a dvd clip, but it will probably be ridiculed like we were too. So from now on we are only dealing with sincere honest people.

Thanks

Yuk Hing

[PangQuan]

yuk hing, and mister Chu.

it would be most appreciated if you would post a small clip of your family style.

you may find some will redicule, however, provided the material is of good martial art, you will also find some of those who in the past have redicule you, will change the way they see you.


many people here seek validation beyond words, many will be satisfied with a decent video clip.

please look past those people with whom you disagree.

I personally would enjoy to see some of your style. As i have a master whom i plan to study under for many years to come, it is not my intention to deter my current training methods with a new style. I do find myself to be interested in all martial arts and enjoy seeing styles i am not familar with.

please take my advice into consideration.

it would be beneficial for many.

[Oso]

Somebody should systematize something like ninjitsu into forms and call it secret sub-ninja Japanese lightning boxing or something like that.

"Sub-ninja. More secret and deadly than the ninja, these clans were descended from the original mountain people of Japan who are remnants of an ancient civilization that existed on the island before it was overrun by Chinese invaders."

All these forms and more can be yours in DVD format for just $120,000. But you have to be sure not to make fun of any of these stories or doubt their credibility."

Edit ... **** I should have copyrighted that. Now somebody will probably use it to produce a new Anime series.

Did that already. But, it's so secret no one knows about it.

[jethro]

he is only asking for people to rip him. If you are not sharing info here in order to be credible with the people on this site, then I will assume that you are like recruiting a top secret army.

[John Bean]

WARNING TO MASTER CHU
The Whole Truth Is: You ‘royal dragon” and you Monticello (same guy) from 2003. You were the ones who were putting down a guy from NC who claimed to be the tai zu chang chuan inheritor of Chao yu feng. Well, he is. I know because I checked him out personally. I found out the edgar Livingston paid the guy in NC (who was in California at the time) some money to have a branch of the CFA. Livingston was a nobody who had at best ‘chang moo quan (pathetic hand typed not even a professional certificate) that he submitted to the head of the CFA and that was all Livingston had.

He only got 2 (TWO) videos from the man I believe his name is Cash? And that’s all the creditability Livingston had. Then Livingston lied to people and said he had studied from Chao yu feng, and we found out later on that he never even met the man. So Livingston is not who he said he was or who he “thinks” he is. That makes him a LIAR and a FRAUD, like you, who studied from him. Right? Tell the truth, don't let these people think you know anything about Tai zu chang chuan, because you do not. You are a Korean karate guy, and low ranked at that!

So Master Chu and Son if you read this I am only trying to warn you not to have anything to do with most of these guys on the internet, (especially the ones that are claiming to know about your family style of (tai zu chang chuan) or tai jo cheong kuen, etc. because, frankly Sir, they are a complete waste of your precious time.
I have been following these few people for several years now and I want to say it like it is, the truth, that is. I know very little about the art of tai zu chang chaun, but I researched the information above to come to this conclusion.

J. Bean

[Red Wind Fist]

Dang, I should have done my Taiji better had I known this is a gold mine!:eek: BTW, I have a family secret form that's handed down for centuries created from the code hidden in the Tang Dynasty poems collection. Would you want that for a mere million dollars? I only want to be an instant millionaire so that I could got get Anna Nicole Smith to stay a month with me. :D See I am such a kind hearted Chinese that I don't want your soul for the contract. ;)

Seriously, caveat emptor is the best policy. If you do have money to burn, why not donate it to some good causes or may be charity? Better yet, private charity case like my personal vactions fund. :D

Mantis108


hahaha, cheers, your from NWT? I lived in Victoria, BC!
I love Canada, great gung fu schools around there. I'll sell you Victoria for 4 million dollars, ITS A STEAL!:D

[David Jamieson]

Chu-

why not post a vid that doesn't reveal all your stuff but can give a general idea of where you're coming from?

Canada eh? Toronto by chance?
North York maybe? :D

too interesting.

[Red Wind Fist]

Chu-

why not post a vid that doesn't reveal all your stuff but can give a general idea of where you're coming from?

Canada eh? Toronto by chance?
North York maybe? :D

too interesting.

another Canuck or missplaced immigrant? astounding! Toronto? sorry, never been. I will be soon though, I have a few friends that live there, I really want to see Kenzington *spelling?* market. I heard it's great.

[Royal Dragon]

Oh, this is going to get good!

[svenfeynord]

Thank you Chu Yuk-Hing!
The DVD is Great! Is that your father? He is unbelievable the way he moves for his age. I did not know that tai chi could be slow and yet fast at the same time. The applications were great.

I can understand now, why you will not just give this to anyone. I will promise to keep this for myself only. The chi kung are very special. I am doing them every day. I am getting benefit already.

I think you should NOT give this to anyone else on the internet Sir. They will not appreciate it. They will not understand its value.

Thank you once again

Svenfeynord

[neilhytholt]

I guess they must have sent it Fedex. ROTFLMAO

Yeah, this guy's totally fake. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

[Royal Dragon]

Ok, lets examine this here shall we?

>>WARNING TO MASTER CHU
The Whole Truth Is: You ‘royal dragon” and you Monticello (same guy) from 2003. You were the ones who were putting down a guy from NC who claimed to be the tai zu chang chuan inheritor of Chao yu feng. Well, he is. I know because I checked him out personally.

Reply]
He may very well be an inheritor, even the standard bearer, but that does not change the fact that he is NOT the head of Chin woo, NOT the head of Won Ark Weys line, and it does not make Chin Woo Long Fist forms Tai Tzu, and it does NOT make Chao style Taiji, Hsing I and Bagua Tai Tzu either. The guy was blatantly misrepresenting who he was, and what he taught, and that is that. I called him on his BS.

>>I found out the edgar Livingston paid the guy in NC (who was in California at the time) some money to have a branch of the CFA.

Reply]
I am not sure about that, BUT I do have a copy of a cert showing him to be a co owner of Cloud Forest back in 1993. Chao Yuh Fend passed on in 1996. I HIGHLY doubt he 'd be a CO OWNER of Chao's organization THREE years before his death, without ever meeting, or learning from him.

Now, the only one to double check Livingston's credentials are Chao, Yuh Feng himself, who is deceased, and David Kash who SOLD Livingston's place on the line to a Karate guy with (at the time) only two years experience. He has every motivation to lie and malign Livingston now, because Livingston knows what really happened. He cannot be trusted as a source to confirm because of the bad blood between them.

>> Livingston was a nobody who had at best ‘chang moo quan (pathetic hand typed not even a professional certificate) that he submitted to the head of the CFA and that was all Livingston had.

Reply]
First, it was Chung Moo Quan, second, it was ME who studied that style, NOT Livingston. Get your facts straight before you go attacking someone for no other reason than to further your own selfish cause.



>>He only got 2 (TWO) videos from the man I believe his name is Cash? And that’s all the creditability Livingston had. Then Livingston lied to people and said he had studied from Chao yu feng, and we found out later on that he never even met the man. So Livingston is not who he said he was or who he “thinks” he is. That makes him a LIAR and a FRAUD, like you, who studied from him. Right?

Reply]
Livingston is good with Chao Taiji (Too good to have learned from video), and he is also good with North Mantis, and I have spoken to people in his Southern Mantis Line who know, and respect his knowledge as well. ALSO, he HAS legit Tai Tzu forms, both Northern and Southern. NO ONE from Kash's family knows these sets. I think Chao taught them to Livingston, and he taught Kash the Taiji, Hsing I and Bagua. Back then, there was not really ANY Tai tzu available commercially (most of today's stuff is heavily marked anyway), and given Livingston's position within Cloud Forest 3 years before Chao's death, your claim seems HIGHLY un likely.

>>Tell the truth, don't let these people think you know anything about Tai zu chang chuan, because you do not. You are a Korean karate guy, and low ranked at that!

Reply]
First, I haven't done Chung Moo since about 1994 or so, since then I have been a straight Chinese artist. Also, Chung moo is not a martial art, but instead a total cult. All the martial arts were built off of old Shaw brothers movies, and some basic Kong Su Do.

Second, EVERYONE who has been around this forum for a long time knows I do, and allways have sought out real teachers, and live training. I tend to stick to underground clubs, and small groups because I have found that is where the best Kung Fu is, so to say i am a low ranked Korean Karate guy is completely un true and utterly ridiculous. Heck I have even been out on the hard, hot asphalt training side by side with guys from this very forum soon after my back injury, when I had NO BUISNESS being off the couch. And I was there in 90 degree heat fighting through intense lower back pain struggling to keep up with the group.


And if you Still doubt me, look at my avatar and tell me that Empty stance is karate....

As for Tai Tzu, I have been researching that art, from EVERY possible source since about 1998. With FEW exceptions, I know more about that art than just about anyone here, INCLUDING the people you went to, to investigate Livingston's credentials.

So, my advice to you, go create ANOTHER brand new account, and make a suspect post to shore up your sad, and pathetic position uumm... K?

[jethro]

WARNING TO MASTER CHU
The Whole Truth Is: You ‘royal dragon” and you Monticello (same guy) from 2003. You were the ones who were putting down a guy from NC who claimed to be the tai zu chang chuan inheritor of Chao yu feng. Well, he is. I know because I checked him out personally. I found out the edgar Livingston paid the guy in NC (who was in California at the time) some money to have a branch of the CFA. Livingston was a nobody who had at best ‘chang moo quan (pathetic hand typed not even a professional certificate) that he submitted to the head of the CFA and that was all Livingston had.

He only got 2 (TWO) videos from the man I believe his name is Cash? And that’s all the creditability Livingston had. Then Livingston lied to people and said he had studied from Chao yu feng, and we found out later on that he never even met the man. So Livingston is not who he said he was or who he “thinks” he is. That makes him a LIAR and a FRAUD, like you, who studied from him. Right? Tell the truth, don't let these people think you know anything about Tai zu chang chuan, because you do not. You are a Korean karate guy, and low ranked at that!

So Master Chu and Son if you read this I am only trying to warn you not to have anything to do with most of these guys on the internet, (especially the ones that are claiming to know about your family style of (tai zu chang chuan) or tai jo cheong kuen, etc. because, frankly Sir, they are a complete waste of your precious time.
I have been following these few people for several years now and I want to say it like it is, the truth, that is. I know very little about the art of tai zu chang chaun, but I researched the information above to come to this conclusion.

J. Bean



That is just one of the many great quotes from this. I highly suggest you read them all as I felt it necessary not to not omit a single word.

Mr. bean,

why are you claiming this "Monticello" "was" ripping Chu on another site or something? Did you think to comment on how Monticello was ripping on us. Is he like a former enemy of your group and you did not know that he was working for you now. Your gang needs to keep you up to date. So please ask mr. gum if he can go ahead and give us more proof than a guy with 2 posts. You could have latched on to nick, but ya fuct that up:p



****** rd, I actually had to work and you beat me to it, easily, dam you.

[Nick Monticello]

Actually, David Kash IS a fraud. he claims he teaches all this ancient Tai Tzu Long fist, but what he really teaches is some rather modern versions of the three sisters.

He's not anyone who can compare to Master Chu! Master Chu is obviously the real deal! he's clearly a man of integrity and would never rip someone off by offering his ancient family Tai tzu, but then switiching it out for common Tai Chi! Real Chinese Master don't do things like that!

[John Bean]

The Fact of the Matter is, Mr. Lencioni, that I contacted Kungfugoat because I saw your earlier posts on the subject on the royal bodyguard thread and KFG has informed me that his Sifu "Kash" (not Cash, my mistake) has all of the Leagl Proof needed in any Court of Law in the USA to prove his crediatabliity etc. from Master Chao yu Feng, his teacher (NOT LIVINGSTONS, or yours) as Livingston said and lied.

In fact KFG told me that Gene Ching has credentials Proof of Sifu Kash that was mailed to him in the last couple of weeks. Do you or your Fraudulent teacher Livingston have such proof? No You Dont!!! So dont lie to these people on these forums and try to act like you really know something, because you RD Lencioni, have NO KNOWLEDGE OF TAI ZU WHATSOEVER. You have no real credentials, No accountability to any real Master of CMA, like Sifu Kash has.

And there is Chao family Tai Chi, but is is also Tai Zu Chang Chuan. ( it is just one branch of the whole system.) See, thats how much you really dont know!

By you saying that you practice Chao family tai chi, but that is not tai tzu chang chuan you are showing your stupid ass ignorance on this subject. If Kash did not have the Legal Proof and Letters from Chao they could not make the statement to me like that or to anyone else. I for one, believe them, and definetly not you.

JB

[neilhytholt]

Why does everybody think that the old martial arts are somehow better?

Have you ever for one second considered that perhaps the older martial arts are inferior? Have you ever considered the possibility that the martial arts might have possibly evolved in the 400-1000 years since Tai Tzu was created??? ????? ??????

[B-Rad]

Mr. Bean (hehe :D)

What's your stake in this? Taking the word of Kash's student over everyone elses (when that student was advertising a $100,000+ program with a fake Wudang master) and calling it "research" is the height of stupidity. You couldn't even spell the man's name right and suddenly you know he's real and everyone else is fake :rolleyes: So what are you... random internet nut rider, troll, or Kash student in deguise?

[Royal Dragon]

Certificates don't mean jack. Look at the movements themselves. When you do, you see that the Chao family Taiji is of a more modern construction, and bears vertually no resemblance to ancient Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. It wasn't created in 960 AD, it is modern Yang style derivitave, and shares the SAME first 9 moves with the Chenman Ching set.

No amount of crednetials, lineage, and documentation can change that. Tai Tzu is very different than modern Tai Chi.

Now, if the Chao family arts contain both styles (and they supposedly do), then that is all fine. Looks to me like Livingston got the Tai tzu, and Kash got the Taiji, Hsing I and Bagua. All you have to do is talk to Kash's students to see they know not a thing about Tai tzu, and everything about Chao style Taiji, Hsing i and Bagua.

Livingston on the other hand taught real Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, and the Chao Taiji, so it looks like he got both. I don't know if he does the Chao's Hsing I or Bagua though, so I cannot comment on that.

[B-Rad]

Anyway, I've had contact with both sides (looked into Kash's org. a bit as a potential school for relatives in the area). Some questions and observations I came up with:

1.Tai Tzu is too old of a style to have one grandmaster... it's been practiced by groups unrelated to any of the people in this discussion longer than any of us have been alive.

2.I'm unclear on Livingston's status... I THOUGHT RD had told me through email that Livingston had learned quite a bit of his tai tzu through video much in the same way RD has been learning... seeking out inheritors of the style and hoping
they'd be generous enough to send video or other learning material.

3.RD has been 100% honest with me from the begining about how he trains and with his sources.

4.Kash's background just doesn't check out in regards to some of his non-tai tzu material. I don't know how to go about seriously checking his Tai Tzu background with his only teacher being dead. Chao Yuh Feng has living relatives so I imagine they'd know something about it.

5.Chung Moo Doe is completely unrelated to any of this. It's a proven cult, no one is going to argue that.

6.In addition to all this Kash is running a money making scheme with a fake Chinese Wudang guy.

7.Chao's background seems really hazy... maybe someone can give a more complete history of this guy... how famous was he? Was he well known as a tai tzu expert or does this just come from Kash? Did anyone meet him other than Kash or Livingston (I really see no reason to trust either's info)?

8.While Kash's Chin Woo membership is shady. No one seems to recognize him in Chin Woo, though I did recieve a scan of an older Chin Woo membership card from them. So basically, it seems he was a member at one point, but isn't active in the Chin Woo comunity. I was told from sources over in Hong Kong and Malaysia that the main requirement to be a Chin Woo member was active participation in the Chin Woo comunity and teaching of the Chin Woo forms. Other than that it was pretty much open to anyone who wanted to join.

9.I've really no opinion of this new guy who's come online... don't think I've ever talked to him, and know nothing about him.

[Royal Dragon]

I have never spoken to anyone who knew of Chao, Yuh feng outside of Kash and Livingston, however I have spoken to people who know of the Chao family in Taiwan, and they are known for a unique style of Taiji, Hsing I and Bagua as well as Tai Tzu Long Fist.

I have video of a Chao family member from Taiwan showing a form that looks like a more expanded version of the 37 Taiji set Kash and Livingston teach, as well as a set that looks to me to be Tai tzu Long fist. So if Chao Yuh Feng himself was not famous, he comes form a martial family that is at least somewhat known in Taiwan.

Unless Kash and livingston made him up together, in which case, where did the forms come from, and how did they get clearly Chao style sets?

I doubt Chao, Yuh feng was made up. I still say Kash specialised in the Taiji, Hsing I and Bagua, and Livingston got a bit of everything as he can show Tai tzu forms as well as Chao Taiji.

On a side note, the Tai tzu sets Livingston has show are rather unique versions of the sets, just as Chao Taiji seems to be a unique version of modern Tai Chi. This makes me believe they come from a common source.

[Oso]

RD, what about the IKF article with CYF and Sifu Kash from...what was it, '86?

It had the 8 postures in pictures?

[Royal Dragon]

yes, you are right. so there is proof that Kash has had his picture taken with a Chinese dude standing in the 8 main Tai Chi postures.

Who has seen Chao, Yuh feng outside of Kash and Livingston?

[Oso]

right, but, I really doubt that CYF is not a real person and I think that he is indeed a kung fu man.


are you saying that CYF is not recognized by other Chao family?

[Royal Dragon]

Just to be clear, I am sure Chao Yuh Feng was a real person. It's just that I, and many others have caught Kash in so many lies that it s not out of the relm of possibility that Kash made Chao Yuh feng up too.

Although, I don't see Livingston being a willing partner in that. He allways affectionately refered to Chao Yuh feng as "The Old Man". I don't think Livingston would be a good enough actor to pull it off personally.

Chao had to be real, and i think he taught both of them different aspects of his familie's system.

[Royal Dragon]

are you saying that CYF is not recognized by other Chao family?

Reply]
I have never spoken directly to a Chao family member, only students in thier line (where I got the DVD of the long from). I never brought Chao Yuh feng's legitimacy up. I allways was looking to the movement itself.

I have heard that they donot recognise Kash though.

[kung fu goat]

This is the truth about royal dragon. I have been watching him and his pathetic attempts to be somebody.

He bought some tapes from Livingston, who wanted to be someone big in tai tzu chang chuan family. Livingston never studied from Chao NEVER!. I have spoken to some of the other students of master Chao. They say "there was never a Livingston in or outside the class Grandmaster Chao taught". I have seen pictures of Livingston doing tai chi "pathetic".

So RD buys some tapes and thinks he is hot **** because he is studying from some quack who says he is the inheritor. Due to his sad life of jealousy and envy he dreams up these assumptions that Chao Yuh Feng gave livingston some important stuff and now he is important because he had a videotape and some books from an "inheritor". Then RD realizes he is wrong and tries to save his self-esteem by saying "no I study chao family tai chi" even though he just said he has never spoken to anyone in the Chao family. Wait a minute, didn't he say that he just recieved a videotape from a Chao family member.

CHU, whatever you do please don't give this guy anything. He will twist it and say he his the inheritor. He will lie weaseling his way around and try to pry information out of you. For the sake of real kung fu please do not let him have anything.

[Oso]

well, to wade back in to this mess on the middle ground...

I've trained under Sifu Kash (just some seminars, no real classes) and I've also seen the result of people who stuck with his Iron Palm programs. It's good stuff whatever it is.


I do wish there was real clarity on the issue though.

I'll be interested to see if Gene really did get some documentation (though, I'm not real sure why he would have need of them unless it's to validate someone who he's published in his mag) and if he will comment one way or the other.

[Wei Wei Wu]

Royal Dragon,
Livingston NEVER trained directly under Grandmaster Chao, he learned everything about Tai Tzu from GM Kash. Any external forms taught were from Kash, not Chao. Your perception of his teaching of only three things is false, he teaches all the Long Fist forms as well. He teaches both internal and external of this art. How do I know this, well I was in California and studied under GM Chao myself and was one of his origional American students. I was also there when Sifu Kash sent Livingston his videos and membership certificate, that unfortunately signed by GM Chao (presigned membership Certificates signed by GM Chao before his death, Livingston says he studied but did not). I was there when Livingston came to NC and studied in Winston-Salem, low skill level he demonstrated. You are wrong on Kash and correct about him as well. He teaches Bagua, Hsing etc, along with the Long Fist, but teaches mostly the internal aspects. The video links you post from time to time are of hard style Long Fist, not all are Tai Tzu, by the way.
The chart you so proudly showed on this site, where do you think it came from? Who do you think wrote it? You showed it like it is a secret chart from your personal archives but I know where it was from. You avoided the subject when someone asked for info on it.
To answer a future question from you, I was a member along time ago on this site, inactivity made it expire. I was a member on your old site and have watched you for years speak about your girlfriends, your video learning, wine making and the like. I have also seen you act like a pure punk, "don't say Chao" etc, seems like your main mission is to impress you opinion about a man you have never met on others and form a couple of "friends" to also bad mouth him. You sir are out of line. You claim to have info from the Chao family in TW, but it's not from a Chao Family Art's Sifu, it's from a student. You have forms on video and practice these, let's see them. I want to see YOU do a Tai Tzu form, not someone else on a link. Let others see you for what you are or are not. This is an opportunity to prove what you do and show what you "know". Let's see the 32 step form, lets see the 64 and prove to us that training off videos and out of books is worth all the time you have spent. Show your stuff, back up that big mouth you seem to run and bash others with. If you are unwilling to, this proves my theory. Put up or shut up.

Wei Wei Wu

[jethro]

this thread I guarantee will spawn the most first time users ever. I might as well get in on the fun:rolleyes:

[neilhytholt]

Yet another lineage vs. lineage fight. When will people grow up? I guess when you're charging $160,000 for your degree course you have a lot at stake.

[John Bean]

Thanks Wei WEi Wu and KFG! At least somebody is telling the truth! When are people going to pick up on it???

This brad guy from ohio (probably monticello or royal whatever) is not to informed or intelligent either is he?

I do know this I found out that the KFM has some authentic letter of Chao Yuh feng hand written to and for Kash. I called Kash and found out this info myself. I dont know what it says, I just know that it is some kind of proof. I am not sure if the KFM can legally show it due to legal permission reasons.

I believe the Lawyer requested for the KFM editor not to allow RD (Lencioni, the EMPEROR ) of his own little mind and small world to have it because of FRAUD.

Lencioni the EMPEROR would definatly copy it and make himself something besides the EMPEROR. What an A$$! Who in their right mind calls themself "the emperor"?

Master Chu, please avoid these type of people Sir, as they are not good.

JB

[John Bean]

I think that B-Rad (Brad, Monticello, Lencioni and neilytholt are the same guys.

dont you Wei wei Wu? They all seem to fit the same psychological profile.

Look, Why would someone make fun of a "real Master" who has the right to charge

that kind of money? Because they cant! They dont have the fricken qualifications!

I have recently seen the Chin Woo Demo DVD it is awesome. They did not charge

me for it. Kash's basic students are really good... It looks real to me.

JB

[Royal Dragon]

Oh my God is it getting THICK in here!

You guys act like I’m the biggest fraud, when I have never misrepresented myself at all. You think I will fake a document from Chao? Oh my God is that funny!

See, if it was in my character to falsely present myself, don't you little pea brains think I would have made up a more respectable past? Do you think I'd be talking about video studies I have done in the past, and working with guys in parks and such??

No, common sense says i would have made up a halfway buyable story using some fake Chinese Master to give myself legitimacy. But I don't do that, I just state my history as it really is.

See, I'm actually being honest. You should try it sometime. It's much less stressful than what you do.

[jethro]

:D :D :D :D :D just thought I would show you hwo amused i am by this. :D :D :D :D :D

[jethro]

I think that B-Rad (Brad, Monticello, Lencioni and neilytholt are the same guys.

dont you Wei wei Wu? They all seem to fit the same psychological profile.

Look, Why would someone make fun of a "real Master" who has the right to charge

that kind of money? Because they cant! They dont have the fricken qualifications!

I have recently seen the Chin Woo Demo DVD it is awesome. They did not charge

me for it. Kash's basic students are really good... It looks real to me.

JB


Why didn't you just pm that message to him? Nobody wants to see your huge load of shlt just lying there on the screen.

Oh wait, because you are the same person, god am I stupid:D

[neilhytholt]

I think that B-Rad (Brad, Monticello, Lencioni and neilytholt are the same guys.

dont you Wei wei Wu? They all seem to fit the same psychological profile.

Look, Why would someone make fun of a "real Master" who has the right to charge

that kind of money? Because they cant! They dont have the fricken qualifications!

I have recently seen the Chin Woo Demo DVD it is awesome. They did not charge

me for it. Kash's basic students are really good... It looks real to me.

JB

Oh, please, I am NOT anybody else on here. Good grief, do you find anybody with the same misogynistic and hyper-critical posts and negative attitude?

Anyways, I have a new rule which is steer clear of all Kash, etc. Anybody charging that much for a course and having people (random people with few posts) posting around supporting him makes my "do not visit, do not associate with and steer far away from" list.

Edit ...

As for fricken qualifications. LMAO I don't need no fricken qualifications, because I don't teach. If I ever do teach, I won't charge a dime, except room fees, because I absolutely HATE people who charge a lot of $$$ for instruction.

[Royal Dragon]

Royal Dragon,
Livingston NEVER trained directly under Grandmaster Chao, he learned everything about Tai Tzu from GM Kash. Any external forms taught were from Kash, not Chao.

Reply]
Then why is it that for several years of talking to Kashs students NONE of them knew any of the external sets, but Livingston did?

>> Your perception of his teaching of only three things is false, he teaches all the Long Fist forms as well.

Reply]
Every student I have ever talked with, even some going back to his days in California only knew Chin Woo’s Standard forms. They “Thought” those sets were Tai tzu, but they turned out to be the Chin Woo forms instead.

>> He teaches both internal and external of this art. How do I know this, well I was in California and studied under GM Chao myself and was one of his origional American students. I was also there when Sifu Kash sent Livingston his videos and membership certificate, that unfortunately signed by GM Chao (presigned membership Certificates signed by GM Chao before his death, Livingston says he studied but did not).

Reply]
So, you are saying the copy I have of Livingston’s certs as an owner of Cloud forest cerca 1993 (Three years before Chao died) are fraudulent?

>> I was there when Livingston came to NC and studied in Winston-Salem, low skill level he demonstrated. You are wrong on Kash and correct about him as well. He teaches Bagua, Hsing etc, along with the Long Fist, but teaches mostly the internal aspects.

Reply]
How come NO student of Kash's, that I have ever spoken to, knows the correct names of the external forms then? Why do they all think the modern Chin Woo sets are Tai Tzu?

>> The video links you post from time to time are of hard style Long Fist, not all are Tai Tzu, by the way.

Reply]
Actually, yes they all are Tai Tzu. The one is a Mantis/Hong set derived from Tai Tzu, but it still is considered to be Tai Tzu by several lines.

Also, one set is being performed by none other than John Wang, one of the most respected Kung fu masters of our time. Are you gonna call his Tai Tzu in error?

>>The chart you so proudly showed on this site, where do you think it came from? Who do you think wrote it? You showed it like it is a secret chart from your personal archives but I know where it was from. You avoided the subject when someone asked for info on it.
To answer a future question from you, I was a member along time ago on this site, inactivity made it expire. I was a member on your old site and have watched you for years speak about your girlfriends, your video learning, wine making and the like. I have also seen you act like a pure punk, "don't say Chao" etc,

Reply]
LOL!! That was because Kash tried to muscle me by threatening to SUE me for saying Chao! What an idiot!

>> seems like your main mission is to impress you opinion about a man you have never met on others and form a couple of "friends" to also bad mouth him.

Reply]
Not so, I’m calling foul on a lieing fraud who has spent his career bull s ing his way through at everyone else’s expense.

>>You sir are out of line. You claim to have info from the Chao family in TW, but it's not from a Chao Family Art's Sifu, it's from a student.

Reply]
It is STILL footage of Master Chao himself performing the sets, not of the student. How is that BSing? I never siad I was talking to the Chao family member himself. I have allways told the truth that it was one of his students. You cannot make me to be a liear, when I haven't lied.

>>You have forms on video and practice these, let's see them. I want to see YOU do a Tai Tzu form, not someone else on a link. Let others see you for what you are or are not. This is an opportunity to prove what you do and show what you "know". Let's see the 32 step form, lets see the 64 and prove to us that training off videos and out of books is worth all the time you have spent. Show your stuff, back up that big mouth you seem to run and bash others with. If you are unwilling to, this proves my theory. Put up or shut up.

Reply]
I am not at issue here. What i do with my Kung Fu has no bearing on David Kash at all. Everyone here already knows the deal with me, I don’t need to prove anything.

[Royal Dragon]

What “I” want to know, is this. If Kash is who his documents say he is, Why is it he claims to teach Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, but then teaches Taiji, Hsing I and Bagua instead? I mean, if he actually knows it, why lie and defraud his students? Why not just teach what he SAYS he’s teaching?

Also, Why does he claim to know the external Tai Tzu, but instead teach the Chin Woo sets in their place, and thus defrauding his students a second time? If he knows the sets as you claim, why doesn’t he actually TEACH them? Why lie and teach something different?

I mean, if he is the real deal, why not teach actual Tai Tzu, instead of playing all these bait and switch scam’s without even telling?

If he is the real deal, why not say THIS is Tai Tzu, and THAT is Chao Taiji, Hsing I and Bagua, and the other things are the standard Chin Woo Forms, etc...

Why does he claim one thing, and teach something totally different than what he claims? If he’s the real deal, why does he play these type of deceptive games? Why doesn’t he just teach it straight up and honestly?

Also, if he is an upstanding moral individual, why did he lie in the past about being the head of Won Ark Wey’s lineage, when he was just a minor student and not even IN the inner circle?

And why is it he always tries to make it look like he is the head of Chin Frik’n Woo, when he’s not even a member school?

If he is really legit, why is it one lie, after another, after another with that guy?

And what’s the deal about calling me fraud when I have always been totally open and truthful about myself to everyone? If the man is such an example of moral virtue, why does he always seek to call fraud on me when I have never defrauded anyone?

Why does he attack Gus Rubio and his Tai Tzu line as well? I’m sure you saw all the stuff in the magazines.


Can you give me some sort of satisfactory answers to that?

As for my skill, look at my avatar. Not many can do that stance, that low and still keep their structure. I bet you couldn't do it that good....

Have fun now!

RD

[Royal Dragon]

As for fricken qualifications. LMAO I don't need no fricken qualifications, because I don't teach. If I ever do teach, I won't charge a dime, except room fees, because I absolutely HATE people who charge a lot of $$$ for instruction.

Reply]
I'd do the same if I could, but if I ever do this full time, I'd have to charge enough to make a fair living.

I would probably add up all the tuition fee's from every school in a 5 mile radius, and charge the average I think.

Right now, I just assist a friend and teach the way he wants me too.

I may get a little Tai tzu research group going when the school grows big enough though. Untill then I have good guys to cross hands with, and refine my skills with.

[neilhytholt]

I have a policy of not posting PMs in public forum, but just sos you know, if you're not planning on charging a price, then don't post a price.

I'm not supporting RD. I don't know RD.

But I can tell you that there's no new stuff out there. All your tai-zu (and I've viewed several clips), is just longfist. So why the heck fight over it?

But I've dealt with teachers and this political crap in the past SEVERAL times, (can't believe I'm in the midst of another now).

And acting like teenagers with all the political crap is stupid and demeaning to everyone.

Last time I dealt with this was with another student of poor SKL with the initials AC. Why does everybody try to leech off of SKL?

[Royal Dragon]

I think this is more than political cr*ap here. I suspect kash has a new program, and wants to establish himself as the all knowing, all powerful authority on tai tzu, so he is going around bashing everyone who might pose a threat to that goal with dumb stunts like we see here.

And you are right, Tai Tzu is basically Shaolin Long Fist. And his other stuff is just modern Taiji, Hsing I and Bagua. Abit they are unique branches of it, but the nuts and bolts are all the same.

[Wei Wei Wu]

I never called you a fraud, but I asked you to show your stuff. You talk all the time how much knowledge you have and the amount of Tai Tzu you have and the form you do on a daily basis. You always act like you are an authority on this style and can tell real from fake, without any training on your side. When someone calls you out you always say, "Im not a fraud" "I did not lie" etc...but you sure like to stir the pot about things you "know" don't you.

The fact is Gian, you act as if you are an authority, give advice and give your opinion about others. You always speak about the forms sent to you or found and continue to promote yourself, but know nothing of the arts or any art on your own. Don't even throw the few monthy you may or may not have studied from Abate (he did not remember you).

Show us what you know, prove yourself lets see you in action. You have plans to open a school and teach, show what you want to teach. My guess is you know nothing.

Great to learn from books, videos etc.

Again, where did you get your chart? Who made it?

Don't change the subject either. Stick to my questions. Show the world you have created about what you know. Look out everyone, heeeerrrrrrssssss Johnny.
You may think or say you have nothing to prove, but with the past insults and slander you have slung, its about time to see what you know. You have a track record of junk talking and butting in with your knowledge of this beautiful art.
Show us what you have to show, put your money where your mouth is. If you want to talk the talk then walk the walk.
Wei Wu

[neilhytholt]

I think this is more than political cr*ap here. I suspect kash has a new program, and wants to establish himself as the all knowing, all powerful authority on tai tzu, so he is going around bashing everyone who might pose a threat to that goal with dumb stunts like we see here.

And you are right, Tai Tzu is basically Shaolin Long Fist. And his other stuff is just modern Taiji, Hsing I and Bagua. Abit they are unique branches of it, but the nuts and bolts are all the same.

Whenever things get dry and there is only one pool to draw upon, people start fighting over it.

It seems obvious what is happening here is that interest in martial arts as a whole are waning, and older sifus are having a hard time justifying their existence. I've been talking to people about it all over the country.

But this fighting stuff goes on for some reason for several lineages. SKL, is one example. Another example is a silat lineage I won't name. The 'grandmaster' (how can they be grandmasters when the Grandmaster is still alive?) students tend to fight with each other for who is the authority. I guess so they can charge a ton of $$$ for seminars, otherwise what's to fight about? The 'purity' of the art? Puleeze ... nobody cares. It's all about $$$ or they'd be giving away clips of it for free on the Internet for the cost of bandwidth.

I wonder if they paid SKL the same as they charge their students. Highly doubtful.

[neilhytholt]

I never called you a fraud, but I asked you to show your stuff. You talk all the time how much knowledge you have and the amount of Tai Tzu you have and the form you do on a daily basis. You always act like you are an authority on this style and can tell real from fake, without any training on your side. When someone calls you out you always say, "Im not a fraud" "I did not lie" etc...but you sure like to stir the pot about things you "know" don't you.
...

Wei Wu

You first ... how about you post clips of yourself? Only if you post clips can you make any comment about others posting clips.

I never ask people to post clips because I'm not going to post any of myself.

[John Bean]

I have talked to GM Kash recently. He teaches what he was taught by "His Teacher".

He is more real than you will ever be. Your ONE SICK PUPPY...

You have been exposed, you and your so called "sifu" Livinston too! You think you

know tai zu, YOU DO NOT! You have no right to talk about Kash. He is credible, you

are not. I hope Chu yuk hing see's this too!

You call yourself the emperor! What an ego! Can you talk your ass out of that

one....? hmmmm I dont think so.

You have attracted some attention from some people you dont want to know..

(big shots.) In other words, you own words screw you. You have Lied for years

allowing gullible people to think that you know something. Well, you only know

korean karate and never ranked even in that! You have nothing, nothing at all,

except your empty words.

In 2003 I actually read your pathetic page after page of endless bablings

pouring your heart out to a guy who kept putting you down, like an ass, and you

kept saying, "no really, I am for real"...

Isnt it sad that people like you have to go to

a freakin forum to get their so called acknowledgement from other nobodies? Yes

it is, really sad. Have you gone through something traumatic recently? Like a

divorce or something?

You are a KFBM (kung fu by mail "wanna be" mail order junkie, looking for

the truth, buy you will never, (perhaps) find it. At least not the way your going

about it. I bet you spent a lot of $$ on "Videos, DVD's eh? Tai Zu, by chance?

And I really feel you need some professional help Sir. Get some soon. PLease

If we did not follow your liar bull**** posts for years now, then it would be a

different story. And hey Guys, he goes to other forum sites as well, with Yes, the

same BS. It never stops.

JB

[neilhytholt]

I have talked to GM Kash recently. He teaches what he was taught by "His Teacher".
And hey Guys, he goes to other forum sites as well, with Yes, the

same BS. It never stops.

JB

Yes, the same B.S. never stops. As you are as well perpetuating.

Well I am done with this discussion. One fewer person BSing.

[Royal Dragon]

I never called you a fraud, but I asked you to show your stuff. You talk all the time how much knowledge you have and the amount of Tai Tzu you have and the form you do on a daily basis. You always act like you are an authority on this style and can tell real from fake, without any training on your side. When someone calls you out you always say, "Im not a fraud" "I did not lie" etc...but you sure like to stir the pot about things you "know" don't you.

Reply]
If you are so good, how is it you cannot tell the difference between Long Fist, and Tai Chi?

[Royal Dragon]

You have attracted some attention from some people you dont want to know..


Reply]
Oh really? is this some sort of implied threat? Am I supposed to get scared, and be afriad that the big Bad someone is going to harm me?

I really could care less who's attention I have attracted. If you guys want to fight, you are going to start fights.

if you want to be lind, be blind, I really don't care anymore.

But don't threaten me, i don't scare easily. Your not going to get anywhere by being a bully with me.

[Wei Wei Wu]

Another thing Gian,

You talked to some of Kash's students from California, but a bit ago you stated that Chao is a Chinese man in some pictures. As far as his credentials with Ark Wong, write Seming Ma, ask him let him show you pictures, documents from his grandfather.

The US Chin Woo is not the authority in the world and as far as Chin Woo, he follows the guidelines of the group from China. Ask them not the "US" branch. One of the charter guidelines of Chin Woo Athletic Club is there is not head branch of a country, just schools.

Now lets get back to you and your mouth and your precalculated attacks on someone else. Show us what you learned. Picture of you, ha, its a still photograph, lets see you move. Show me your stances and fluid movement. I can show me floating in mid air with a still photo.

As far as Rubio's line, it is a different line all together, not Chao's. He insulted no one with an article in any magazine, this is something you pushed into the limelight and instigated, twisted and got Sifu Abel and his teacher to get wound up. I read something about him being a fraud too, why don't you get up in arm about that, do you read letters to the editor? Gus Rubio and Kash teach different Long Fist all together, so don't go there.

You do have to prove yourself. Show us what you know, how you move and preform the most basic form you know. Show me and your audience the skills you possess, this should come from the knowledge you have. You practice alot, prove it.

Yes Livingston's certificate of membership is real, but he did not and has not ever met Grandmaster Chao. HE NEVER MET HIM, STUDIED FROM HIM OR EVEN KNEW HIM. HIS CERTIFICATE OF MEMBERSHIP WAS A PRESIGNED COPY. Would you like to hear the phone converstion of Livingston admiting this?

Ill ask again,
Who made the diagram you showed on this site? If he is a fraud why show it to the world? You state he is a fraud but still practice the forms he teaches and taught your "teacher" video/ one weekend teacher. You must charish that diagram because you showed it. WHO MADE IT? WHO'S SEAL IS ON IT? WHO'S HAND WRIGHTING IS IT IN? ANSWER THE QUESTION GIAN! If Kash is a fraud and a thief why, after all the slander, the countless hours of mocking him and derailing his name, why would you show a diagram years after you did these things. Why would you, after all this time, show and hold dear a diagram of a "fake" system from him? WHY? ANSWER THE QUESTIONS GIAN, DON'T CHANGE THE SUBJECT, DON'T MAKE THIS ABOUT ANYONE ELSE BUT YOU. SHOW YOUR PEOPLE WHAT YOU KNOW.


Wei Wu

[Royal Dragon]

Another thing Gian,

You talked to some of Kash's students from California, but a bit ago you stated that Chao is a Chinese man in some pictures. As far as his credentials with Ark Wong, write Seming Ma, ask him let him show you pictures, documents from his grandfather.

Reply]
I talked to him, he confirmed to me who Kash was, and who he wasn't a long time ago. maybe you should call him yourself ehy?

>>The US Chin Woo is not the authority in the world and as far as Chin Woo he is, he follows the guidelines of the group from China. Ask them not the "US" branch. One of the charter guidelines of Chin Woo Athletic Club is there is not head branch of a country, just schools.

Reply]
I contacted all branches, here and overseas for years they all denied any knowledge of kash what so ever. Kash was NOT a member of Chin woo when I looked into him, let alone the HEAD of it ever. Sorry pal, it's not my fault he got caught in a lie. He has no one to blame but himself.

>>Now lets get back to you and your mouth and your precalculated attacks on someone else. Show us what you learned. Picture of you, ha, its a still photograph, lets see you move. Show me your stances and fluid movement. I can show me floating in mid air with a still photo.

As far as Rubio's line, it is a different line all together, not Chao's. He insulted no one with an article in any magazine, this is something you pushed into the limelight and instigated, twisted and got Sifu Abel and his teacher to get wound up. I read something about him being a fraud too, why don't you get up in arm about that, do you read letters to the editor? Gus Rubio and Kash teach different Long Fist all together, so don't go there.

Reply]
Yup, you are right, Rubio teches Tai tzu Chang Chuan, Kash teaches ChinWoo forms from when he was a member back in the early 90's

>>You do have to prove yourself. Show us what you know, how you move and preform the most basic form you know. Show me and your audience the skills you possess, this should come from the knowledge you have. You practice alot, prove it.

Reply]
Why? I have never lied about anything, I have never made any claims about my self other than video study. What do i have to prove?

>>Yes Livingston's certificate of membership is real, but he did not and has not ever met Grandmaster Chao. HE NEVER MET HIM, STUDIED FROM HIM OR EVEN KNEW HIM. HIS CERTIFICATE OF MEMBERSHIP WAS A PRESIGNED COPY. Would you like to hear the phone converstion of Livingston admiting this?

Reply]
I am STILL waiting for a copy of that tape form several years ago. You never sent it then, and I doubt you will send it now.

>>Ill ask again,
Who made the diagram you showed on this site? If he is a fraud why show it to the world? You state he is a fraud but still practice the forms he teaches and taught your "teacher" video/ one weekend teacher. You must charish that diagram because you showed it. WHO MADE IT? WHO'S SEAL IS ON IT? WHO'S HAND WRIGHTING IS ON IT? ANSWER THE QUESTION GIAN! If Kash is a fraud and a thief why, after all the slander, the countless hours of mocking him and derailing his name, why would you show a diagram years after you did these things. Why would you, after all this time, show and hold dear a diagram of a "fake" system from him? WHY? ANSWER THE QUESTIONS GIAN, DON'T CHANGE THE SUBJECT, DON'T MAKE THIS ABOUT ANYONE ELSE BUT YOU. SHOW YOUR PEOPLE WHAT YOU KNOW.


Reply]
The Taiji is not fake, I never said it was. It's NOT Tai Tzu though, and YOU know it!!

Chao style Taiji, Hsing I and Bagua are legit styles of said arts, and the diagram (as far as I know) comes form the Chao family. it is NOT about Tai Tzu, it is about thier Taiji system. The BS in english at the top is most likely KAsh adding his two cents in in a vain attempt to make the Chao style Taiji look like it's ancient, when it is clearly a modern Yang based form. Anyone looking at it can see that.

[Royal Dragon]

Just discuss the truth, and the facts!

[Wei Wei Wu]

Gian,

Kash teached Chin Woo forms, yes only in his other system. but the Tai Tzu, is Tai Tzu, not just Taiji etc... does all aspects of it. Did you know that the system you have investigated is the external Long Fist. and why would anyone give you information about any high ranking information without knowing you and your teachers. Traditionally teachers would not take on students without references or a recomendation from their former teacher or someone in a highly respected position in the community. Ask Gene Ching to verify about Kash, how about Dave Cater, ask him as well.

Also want a copy of the tape? Give an address on PM and I will send to you, no problem. You will see. I will obtain a copy and send ASAP, and when you find out what a fraud is, they an appology may be in order from Livingston and you.

Rubio does not teach Chao Family Tai Tzu by the way. Kash does! Rubio has other system all together, no matter what you think or say. Different family all together. I have no issue with that group. Have been to his school several times.

Were you there in California? Who is the student you spoke with? Name the name. Did you go to TW in the ROC? I did, I know family there? I lived there for several years. Who was the teacher and student you got info from in TW?

Who is the California student you talked to? PM me this info if you like. I know all of them.

Answer the question: Who made the diagram? If he is a fraud, why show it.

How is Kash's Tai Chi? His Bagua and Hsing? How is his Iron Palm? How is his Hard style Kung Fu? OSO thinks he is ok, you quote him on your profile.

By the way, write the Chin Woo in China or ask Gene Ching about this as well. The US Chin Woo is not the headquarters of the US, ask China about that. It goes against their charter.

So answer the questions directly, don't twist them up.

Wei Wu

[B-Rad]

I didn't mean to imply that the "Chao" didn't exist... just curious as to what his true background was. I've seen a couple photos of him and allways assumed they were authentic. What I was wondering is if he was just some old Chinese guy teaching a modified taiji style that one of them found, or a well recognized tai tzu chang quan master.

[Wei Wei Wu]

Who are you refering to?

Your title should be:

"How to not **** off the wrong person" or " How not to get hurt" or "How can I get out of the trouble I'm in" or "How to be a nice person" or "How not to get fired, again" or "How to run fast" or "How not to be a jerk" many many more titles for you.

[SPJ]

Just discuss the truth, and the facts!

People usually are aware of the facts and truth.

However, we would raise our ears and curiosity about something that is unreal and not the truth or facts.

"Curiosity kylls the cat?"

:D

[Wei Wei Wu]

He was the inherator of his genertation. He was one of the nicest men I have ever met very kind hearted. He never said a bad thing about anyone in his life.

The thing is that Tai Tzu, Chao's is authentic Tai Tzu, it has hard and soft components. As a matter of fact there are over 18 styles which came from this. Tai Chi, Bagua and Hsing came from it yes, and are the most reconizable aspects of the Chao Family Arts, but there is so much more to it. Mantis, monkey and other Chinese boxing methods came from it. Animal styles like Bear and bird boxing as well. Some people are so closed minded don't see past the initial forms taught. When you get into more advance levels of this art you get the essence of the art. Advanced levels are not taught to the general public, they are taught only to a select few. GM Chao was gentle and kind yes, real yes he did things I wish I could do. He was powerful, fast and tough as nails. He was small but was he strong. He once shook my hand and crushed it. Im a powerful guy and he crushed my hand. I respected him and his ability as a man and a teacher. He was a genuine master.

Thank you for your intrest.

Wei Wu

[jethro]

you do realize nothing you say on here will be credible. This is just retarded and it is all falling on deaf ears, so have fun:D

[B-Rad]

I think that B-Rad (Brad, Monticello, Lencioni and neilytholt are the same guys.
Uh, no we're not, lol. I used to post as just "Brad" but started a new account under the name to B-Rad after changing my internet service recently (in case anyone else is confused ;)). If you think Royal Dragon and I have the same "phycology" you aparently didn't read my posts very carefully. I agree with him on some things, and disagree on others. For example, I don't place much stock in what "USA Chin Woo" says anymore, and we have VERY different training backgrounds.

[B-Rad]

He was the inherator of his genertation. He was one of the nicest men I have ever met very kind hearted. He never said a bad thing about anyone in his life.

The thing is that Tai Tzu, Chao's is authentic Tai Tzu, it has hard and soft components. As a matter of fact there are over 18 styles which came from this. Tai Chi, Bagua and Hsing came from it yes, and are the most reconizable aspects of the Chao Family Arts, but there is so much more to it. Mantis, monkey and other Chinese boxing methods came from it. Animal styles like Bear and bird boxing as well. Some people are so closed minded don't see past the initial forms taught. When you get into more advance levels of this art you get the essence of the art. Advanced levels are not taught to the general public, they are taught only to a select few. GM Chao was gentle and kind yes, real yes he did things I wish I could do. He was powerful, fast and tough as nails. He was small but was he strong. He once shook my hand and crushed it. Im a powerful guy and he crushed my hand. I respected him and his ability as a man and a teacher. He was a genuine master.

Thank you for your intrest.

Wei Wu

And thank you for a reasonable sounding answer and not resorting to unhelpful flaming (which I'm guilty of too... sorry John Bean!). To tell the truth, I doubt I'll ever buy that Bagua, Xingyi, and Taiji are all literally contained and branched off of tai tzu chang quan, but as someone who enjoy's Sun style taiji quan, I would be interested in seeing any art that atempts combines aspects of all three styles.

[Oso]

i'd be willing to be that at this point the mods are ready to start deleting redundant threads. Give it a rest RD. I doubt there is anybody on this forum that doesn't get your point and if they gave a rats ass and did their own research they have surely arrived at their own conclusion whatever it may be.


heh, hows that for a run-on...

[Royal Dragon]

Kash teached Chin Woo forms, yes only in his other system. but the Tai Tzu, is Tai Tzu, not just Taiji etc... does all aspects of it.

Reply]
Tai Tzu is not modern Tai Chi. there are no stylistic similarites.

>>Did you know that the system you have investigated is the external Long Fist.

Reply]
No, what I do is INTERNAL Tai Tzu. I have external forms to, but I spend the majority of my time working the internal TAi Tzu rather than the external forms.

>>and why would anyone give you information about any high ranking information without knowing you and your teachers. Traditionally teachers would not take on students without references or a recomendation from their former teacher or someone in a highly respected position in the community. Ask Gene Ching to verify about Kash, how about Dave Cater, ask him as well.

Reply]
Gene Ching knows nothing of Kash, why drag him into this?

Like I said, I am working on the internal Tai Tzu, and it ain't a modern Tai Chi set....

[Royal Dragon]

Also want a copy of the tape? Give an address on PM and I will send to you, no problem. You will see. I will obtain a copy and send ASAP, and when you find out what a fraud is, they an appology may be in order from Livingston and you.

Reply]
No, it would not warrent an apology for me. Livingston's place in this has no bearing on Kash at all. His actions and behavior speak for themselves. I will get you an address sometime next week for the tape, if you really intend to send it this time (I ain't holding my breath though, I'm still waiting for the tape from last time). Even if this is true about Livingston, that still does not explain how HE can teach authentic Tai Tzu forms, and Kash can only teach everything but, and has to lie by mis labling his Taiji, Hsing I and Bagua as Tai Tzu, when it is not.

>>Rubio does not teach Chao Family Tai Tzu by the way. Kash does!

Reply]
No, Kash teaches Chao style Taiji, Hsing I and Bagua. he *Calls* That Tai Tzu because he does not know any Tai Tzu in my opinion. if he DID know it, he would teach THAT, and call the Chao style Taiji, Hsing I and Bagua what it is.

But he does not do that does he? or are you saying he lies for the fun of it, but really knows the sets?

>>Rubio has other system all together, no matter what you think or say. Different family all together. I have no issue with that group. Have been to his school several times.

Reply]
Yes, Rubio has his own system, which is a Southernised branch of Tai Tzu Long Fist with a few other things mixed in as well.


>>Were you there in California? Who is the student you spoke with? Name the name. Did you go to TW in the ROC? I did, I know family there? I lived there for several years.

Reply]
How much have you compared what Kash teaches to the rest of the Tai Tzu world? if you have compared a lot, how do you explain that EVERYONE ELSE on the planet showsTai Tzu as a Long Fist style, but Kash sells modern Taiji, Hsing I and Bagua as Tai Tzu? We are talking totaly unrelated arts here. Even internal Tai Tzu does not look like a modern Yang set (which is what the Chao 37 is).

>>Who was the teacher and student you got info from in TW?

Reply]
Hee, hee hee you are the expert, you tell me who the head of the Chao family is in Taiwan. That is who I have footage of playing the long form (I bet Kash don't even know it Ha Ha!!!)

>>Who is the California student you talked to? PM me this info if you like. I know all of them.

Reply]
Honestly, it has been a few years. I should still have the e-mials on a hard drive though. BTW, it was multiple students, from all ranges of his teachings.

>>Answer the question: Who made the diagram? If he is a fraud, why show it.

Reply]
I already answered that. if it is presented as a TAI CHI diagram, it's legit. it's only fraudulant if it is presnted as a diagram for Tai Tzu.


>>How is Kash's Tai Chi? His Bagua and Hsing? How is his Iron Palm? How is his Hard style Kung Fu? OSO thinks he is ok, you quote him on your profile.

Reply]
I hear his guys have skills, even though they are not doing Tai Tzu. They can be the best trained Tai Chi guys on the planet, but they still are not doing Tai Tzu.

I can take a Buick, paint it Pearl White, and slap Caddilac lables on it, and sell it to you if I want. Did you buy a Buick, or a Caddilac?

>>By the way, write the Chin Woo in China or ask Gene Ching about this as well. The US Chin Woo is not the headquarters of the US, ask China about that. It goes against their charter.

Reply]
Like I have said, I have spoken to Chin woo many times, I even called Shanghi and found someone who speaks English to ask about this and was assured Kash and his group had absolutely NO involvement in Chin Woo What so ever, let alone the head of anything. You might want to call them yourself. I was even told they have had complaints about his mis use of the name in the past.

>>So answer the questions directly, don't twist them up.

Reply]
Done.

[neilhytholt]

Okay, that's it ... stop right now.

Take a step back. Ask yourself, "why am I posting ... why am I fighting? why do I care?"

This is martial arts, not some vendetta. So I insist, no, I ORDER YOU, to stop fighting and trade forms, and information about your systems and learn and cease and desist fighting with each other.

Okay?

Good.

BTW, I checked out those tiger vs. sparrow forms, and I'd like to know more about those.

But stop all of you, Kash, etc. SKL does not carry on the way you do. Reign in your students. Okay? Easy enough, right?

So ... do we have a problem here? Or are you done fighting?

Edit ...

BTW RD, I don't have a problem with you. It's these others ... they know who they are.

Wen Wui, whatever you call yourself, PM me again and state your real purpose. I've had it with this discussion. Fighting over lineages is so 5 minutes ago.

[kung fu goat]

Let me first clarify on the "price" of $160,000. This is an offering to take care of Sifu while he puts three years of his life into training the apprentice. It is an offering. I heard recently that their was an apprentice ceremony for a high ranking Grandmaster where the dinner alone cost $12,000. All taken care of by the student. Sifu's students have said this before but there is no one that trully understands this on this site. All you can see is some type of financial motivation because that is all you see martial arts for. Just face value, just for fighting, etc. There is so much more. I know from personal experience. People do not see the beneath physical objects to the real heart of martial arts. Discipline, dedication, respect and humility. You would rather gather in packs and agree on information, being incorrect or correct, that suits your motivations. That makes you feel important, that several of you agree on something. This price is just a step towards the Master understanding that the student has these correct qualities.

This is also the reason quality authentic forms are not shared with everyone. They will not appreciate the true value of the forms and distort them. Just as Royal Dragon tries to distort Tai Tzu Chang Chuan to fit his own selfish desires of ego.

Once again, Master Chu, Please do not give information to people who do not understand this.

Neil you could never charge this much because you have nowhere the knowledge that this man has nor the time and experience. Your teaching would be worth just that, nothing. Your jealousy does excludes you from being a quality student of the arts.

[David Jamieson]

Let me first clarify on the "price" of $160,000. This is an offering to take care of Sifu while he puts three years of his life into training the apprentice. It is an offering. I heard recently that their was an apprentice ceremony for a high ranking Grandmaster where the dinner alone cost $12,000. All taken care of by the student. Sifu's students have said this before but there is no one that trully understands this on this site. All you can see is some type of financial motivation because that is all you see martial arts for. Just face value, just for fighting, etc. There is so much more. I know from personal experience. People do not see the beneath physical objects to the real heart of martial arts. Discipline, dedication, respect and humility. You would rather gather in packs and agree on information, being incorrect or correct, that suits your motivations. That makes you feel important, that several of you agree on something. This price is just a step towards the Master understanding that the student has these correct qualities.

Once again, Master Chu, Please do not give information to people who do not understand this.

Neil you could never charge this much because you have nowhere the knowledge that this man has nor the time and experience. Your teaching would be worth just that, nothing. Your jealousy excludes you from being a quality student of the arts.

holy crap dude!

YOu are living proof that PT Barnum was right!

You aren't gonna comprehend why I say that anymore than you think we don't comprehend what's going on in the statement you just made.

[kung fu goat]

Jamieson, while you keep guessing at kung fu with you books and videos I will know what it is.

Do you even understand what those hands mean in your picture on your website?

"holy crap dude!

YOu are living proof that PT Barnum was right"

Obviously you don't with the statement you just made and that proves your hipocracy.

[Oso]

OSO thinks he is ok, you quote him on your profile.

why do some people insist on spelling my alias with all caps????


and, FTR, RD, if you would, please remove my quote from your sig.

It's been there for a couple of years now and I think everyone knows it.

I've recently had dialogue w/ Sifu Kash in regards to that statement and I held my position on it but I think it's time for it to go to the dead sig file. Thanks in advance.

This whole situation is ridiculous and I still hold that it is not doing anything for Kash's program for his students to be arguing with anyone about it. If you have faith in Sifu Kash then great, keep the faith and learn what he has to show you.

[neilhytholt]

Neil you could never charge this much because you have nowhere the knowledge that this man has nor the time and experience. Your teaching would be worth just that, nothing. Your jealousy does excludes you from being a quality student of the arts.

Okay, so I take back my prior post, which was stop fighting. I don't care anymore if you want to waste your time fighting. Go right ahead.

As for charging so much ... Yeah, I probably couldn't charge so much. I think you must have missed the point, though, when I said that if I do ever teach, I will charge NOTHING.

Anyway, whatever. This conversation is boring and just wastes time.

Edit ... you know, I am plain sick of this crap about lineages and the political infighting.

[jethro]

alright, I got the $160,000. Can you people please shut the fvck up now. So send me a pm of your address and I will personally make this delivery:D

[John Bean]

PUBLIC NOTICE 2006, ABOUT SIFU D.E. KASH
Emailed to Wei Wei-Wu, for Posting

This Notice is to Clear up any misconceptions about me, my last teacher, Master Chao Yuh-Feng and my credentials etc. First of all I teach the Chao Yuh-Feng family system of Emperor’s Long Fist, that I learned from Master Chao in California (deceased). I teach tai chi chuan, hsing yi, ba gua and long fist forms as taught to me by Master Chao, since 1983. We have the all of the long fist forms such as Ta hong Chuan etc. Master Chao had made me the Chief Instructor in USA for his family system. Not the whole world, as there are a couple of other Tai Tsu Chang Chuan branch’s, buy are quite different from our system. The other Branch’s are very external, our system is more internal and soft and explosive, but whatever.

I have been in Chinese Martial Arts and Medicine for 41 years. I have degrees in these arts. I first heard from Ed Livingston in about 1989 after our Book Emperor’s Long Fist was published. We had an article that same month in Inside Kung Fu Magazine, Master Chao and I. (Dec. 87) We offered certificates of membership to anyone who was interested that year also selling our video on the ELF. (I am the first one to coin the term “Emperor’s Long Fist”, (ELF) as the exact translation was not as appealing to the public. So No One Else has ever used that name before we came out with our article, some sure used it afterwards. And the Name is copyrighted and soon to be federally registered, legally) All of our books, video’s DVD’s Charts forms, etc. are legally copyrighted.

Livingston (of Baltimore) was just a member only in our Cloud Forest Association (CFA) he also got a “Cross Rank”, but it was not earned. He never even met Master Chao in California, because we have 12 witness’s that will testify to that fact. He never studied from Master Chao either. We can prove this in any court of Law. We only had a small core group of dedicated students and they all know who everyone is in the group. In 1994 I relocated to North Carolina. I had one private student who was a 26 years Karate-Aikido Master, who put about an intensive 800 hours of private tutelage under me. I decided to retire as the 36th Grandmaster (patriarch) of the system, under Master Chao. And I appointed Master Bill Seibert to the position. This made several people real jealous.

Livingston got real jealous about this and the rest is history. (now Livingston had his own Branch of CFA at that time, and 2 (two) video’s that I sold him on the ELF, that’s it!) he was given a couple of charts etc. on the subject also. We seemed to be good friends, although he came to visit me here in NC 2 or 3 times, but was not able to learn the forms very well for some reason. Even the Karate guy learned them easily… As time went by I was told by a student that there was gossip on the internet about me.

Well, I checked it out, just to find out what kind of a jealous snake Livingston was. He had sold a video to a nobody guy named Gian Lencioni in Chicago, and a yellow belt for (?$$$?) and the next thing you know I was being plastered with slander and malicious gossip on several forums. Lencioni even had the balls to set up a royal dragon tai zu chang chuan homepage, using our Chao family style names etc. He called me and I was polite the first time I talked to him. I even sold him a copy of our ELF Book! Lencioni used any and all information in the ELF Book to pervert anything he could.

Lencioni has been doing this for almost 6 years now. He has infringed on our legal copyrights and a lot of other infractions. He threatened to sell our 36 form video, I told him, “go ahead, let people see the crap you do, then they can see the real thing. This man is at best, a deranged, with delusions of grandeur of wanting to be somebody. I can understand the jealousy, as our style is a royal style, and he would like to be a member, or learn, but he will never receive any information from me or my students again. Lencioni, has no respect for a real master, or real style.

A lot of our students are Doctors of Medicine, some are Law Enforcement, some are in Government and Military. They find it hard to believe that someone can do this for so many years. It is unreal. Almost like a “stalker”?

I thought it was about time to set the record straight. After all, 6 years is enough of the Bull Crap from a Liar. I have students world wide. One of my students got a gold medal in China in 1975. I am respected by the Chinese Martial Arts Masters of renown in various countries. We have a real Chin Woo Association and can prove it!

My students have done well at fighting and other events at tournaments and in Iraq, right now. We have a lot of Military people train with us. If anyone wants to know anything about me, please call me or email me at realkungfu@earthlink.net or email Wei Wei-Wu, as he and I go back a long time and he is to be trusted. A simple email or telephone call at (336) 748-0038, can verify that I wrote this Public Notice letter. Please don't take the word of a jealous, insecure quack, whose only ambition is to try to hurt other people and their reputation.
Grandmaster D.E. Kash

[John Bean]

PUBLIC NOTICE 2006, ABOUT SIFU D.E. KASH
Emailed to Wei Wei-Wu, for Posting

This Notice is to Clear up any misconceptions about me, my last teacher, Master Chao Yuh-Feng and my credentials etc. First of all I teach the Chao Yuh-Feng family system of Emperor’s Long Fist, that I learned from Master Chao in California (deceased). I teach tai chi chuan, hsing yi, ba gua and long fist forms as taught to me by Master Chao, since 1983. We have the all of the long fist forms such as Ta hong Chuan etc. Master Chao had made me the Chief Instructor in USA for his family system. Not the whole world, as there are a couple of other Tai Tsu Chang Chuan branch’s, buy are quite different from our system. The other Branch’s are very external, our system is more internal and soft and explosive, but whatever.

I have been in Chinese Martial Arts and Medicine for 41 years. I have degrees in these arts. I first heard from Ed Livingston in about 1989 after our Book Emperor’s Long Fist was published. We had an article that same month in Inside Kung Fu Magazine, Master Chao and I. (Dec. 87) We offered certificates of membership to anyone who was interested that year also selling our video on the ELF. (I am the first one to coin the term “Emperor’s Long Fist”, (ELF) as the exact translation was not as appealing to the public. So No One Else has ever used that name before we came out with our article, some sure used it afterwards. And the Name is copyrighted and soon to be federally registered, legally) All of our books, video’s DVD’s Charts forms, etc. are legally copyrighted.

Livingston (of Baltimore) was just a member only in our Cloud Forest Association (CFA) he also got a “Cross Rank”, but it was not earned. He never even met Master Chao in California, because we have 12 witness’s that will testify to that fact. He never studied from Master Chao either. We can prove this in any court of Law. We only had a small core group of dedicated students and they all know who everyone is in the group. In 1994 I relocated to North Carolina. I had one private student who was a 26 years Karate-Aikido Master, who put about an intensive 800 hours of private tutelage under me. I decided to retire as the 36th Grandmaster (patriarch) of the system, under Master Chao. And I appointed Master Bill Seibert to the position. This made several people real jealous.

Livingston got real jealous about this and the rest is history. (now Livingston had his own Branch of CFA at that time, and 2 (two) video’s that I sold him on the ELF, that’s it!) he was given a couple of charts etc. on the subject also. We seemed to be good friends, although he came to visit me here in NC 2 or 3 times, but was not able to learn the forms very well for some reason. Even the Karate guy learned them easily… As time went by I was told by a student that there was gossip on the internet about me.

Well, I checked it out, just to find out what kind of a jealous snake Livingston was. He had sold a video to a nobody guy named Gian Lencioni in Chicago, and a yellow belt for (?$$$?) and the next thing you know I was being plastered with slander and malicious gossip on several forums. Lencioni even had the balls to set up a royal dragon tai zu chang chuan homepage, using our Chao family style names etc. He called me and I was polite the first time I talked to him. I even sold him a copy of our ELF Book! Lencioni used any and all information in the ELF Book to pervert anything he could.

Lencioni has been doing this for almost 6 years now. He has infringed on our legal copyrights and a lot of other infractions. He threatened to sell our 36 form video, I told him, “go ahead, let people see the crap you do, then they can see the real thing. This man is at best, a deranged, with delusions of grandeur of wanting to be somebody. I can understand the jealousy, as our style is a royal style, and he would like to be a member, or learn, but he will never receive any information from me or my students again. Lencioni, has no respect for a real master, or real style.

A lot of our students are Doctors of Medicine, some are Law Enforcement, some are in Government and Military. They find it hard to believe that someone can do this for so many years. It is unreal. Almost like a “stalker”?

I thought it was about time to set the record straight. After all, 6 years is enough of the Bull Crap from a Liar. I have students world wide. One of my students got a gold medal in China in 1975. I am respected by the Chinese Martial Arts Masters of renown in various countries. We have a real Chin Woo Association and can prove it!

My students have done well at fighting and other events at tournaments and in Iraq, right now. We have a lot of Military people train with us. If anyone wants to know anything about me, please call me or email me at realkungfu@earthlink.net or email Wei Wei-Wu, as he and I go back a long time and he is to be trusted. A simple email or telephone call at (336) 748-0038, can verify that I wrote this Public Notice letter. Please don't take the word of a jealous, insecure quack, whose only ambition is to try to hurt other people and their reputation.
Grandmaster D.E. Kash

[Wei Wei Wu]

Gian,
He has "real" Tai Tzu, huh? (Livingston). What you consider real, right? Well he must have a video of it, did you both get a bulk order discount?
Answer the question, who was the student? Don't give me this "you know who" garbage, you always lay out.
Also still waiting for your address. You have time to change your signature but not give me an address. Who is the one who wants truth, pull your head out of the sand.
Folks, this is what todays society has produced, a generation of people given everything with out earning it (there are exceptions to this). A rank should be earned, with each rank a person should have more responsibility and dedication, inturn more knowledge is handed down. Only the best should have knowledge not everyone is good at things as others, we all have our strengths and weaknesses and should be taught this way. I can learn monkey forms, learn meanings and go through the motions, but will I ever do them to perfection and mimic a monkey, no, my strength is not aimed at this, bear yes. So I learn bear, I can appreciate the monkey and vicea versa.

Gian, still waiting on the address.

Wei Wu

[CaptinPickAxe]

Insecure much?

Did you just waste 8 posts saying the same crap?
You suck
Your sifu sucks
Your style sucks

Go away....

[John Bean]

You talkin to John Bean?

JB

[Royal Dragon]

Well, I checked it out, just to find out what kind of a jealous snake Livingston was. He had sold a video to a nobody guy named Gian Lencioni in Chicago, and a yellow belt for (?$$$?) and the next thing you know I was being plastered with slander and malicious gossip on several forums. Lencioni even had the balls to set up a royal dragon tai zu chang chuan homepage, using our Chao family style names etc. He called me and I was polite the first time I talked to him. I even sold him a copy of our ELF Book! Lencioni used any and all information in the ELF Book to pervert anything he could.

Reply]
What? totally NOT TRUE.
I was part of YOUR family at the time David. You and Livingston were partners, I have a CLF membership cert with Kash's singature on it. This all started around the time kash sold Livingston's title to Seibert. His own students admmitted to me that he didn't know the whole system.

I had links ot your sites on mine and everything. Then for no apparent reason you had your guys come on and start BLASTING me everywhere I went. No matter what forum I was on, no matter what topic was being discussed, you attacked me...totaly unprovacate.

This caused me to look into your back ground, and I discovered nothing you claimed checked out.

To coin the phrase, you guys drew first blood.

[kung fu goat]

alright, I got the $160,000. Can you people please shut the fvck up now. So send me a pm of your address and I will personally make this delivery:D


No you still would not qualify as a sincere student. You would not be accepted. Your attitude is poor.

[CaptinPickAxe]

You talkin to John Bean?

JB

No. I'm talking to the tw at who speaks in 3rd person. You tool.

[Royal Dragon]

Lencioni has been doing this for almost 6 years now. He has infringed on our legal copyrights and a lot of other infractions.

Reply]
How have I infringed on copyrites?

>> He threatened to sell our 36 form video, I told him, “go ahead, let people see the crap you do, then they can see the real thing.

Reply]
I did this becasue you and your group were stalking me all over the internet and attacking me at every topic I was involved in reguardless of the subject. And i didn't threaten to "Sell it", I threatened to POST it on the net, and I will do so if I please.

Infact, because of your reacent attacks, I may very well post my verison of the Shaolin 32 Tai Tzu, Yang, and the Chao style to compare to so EVERYONE can see it's a modern Yang form.

>>>This man is at best, a deranged, with delusions of grandeur of wanting to be somebody. I can understand the jealousy, as our style is a royal style, and he would like to be a member, or learn, but he will never receive any information from me or my students again. Lencioni, has no respect for a real master, or real style.

Reply]
Hee, hee hee, LOL you are so over the top!!!

>>A lot of our students are Doctors of Medicine, some are Law Enforcement, some are in Government and Military. They find it hard to believe that someone can do this for so many years. It is unreal. Almost like a “stalker”?

Reply]
Yean, I know the feeling......

>>I thought it was about time to set the record straight. After all, 6 years is enough of the Bull Crap from a Liar. I have students world wide. One of my students got a gold medal in China in 1975. I am respected by the Chinese Martial Arts Masters of renown in various countries. We have a real Chin Woo Association and can prove it!


Reply]
Ok everyone, start contacting Chin Woo here, and over seas and lets see if he's even a member yet.....

[John Bean]

I like your style man.
Did Chu really send you the dvd? Cause if he did, I would like to private message you about it.

JB

[CaptinPickAxe]

I'd appreciate it if you clones didn't PM me....

If you've never spoken to me. Then I don't want talk to you. Save your breath for cooling your soup.

[John Bean]

Hi wei wu
can you tell me one thing? Why, when you have repeatedly asked the emperor lencioni for the name of that "Kash Student" in California, he can not give it? Do you think its because he is the biggest LIAR on the internet???

I think so, if he had the name he would drop it in a heart beat, am I right?


But, because he dont have it, as well as any proof of his so called false claims, he changes the subject, like he has for some many years now. I have been watching this boy and I gotta tell ya, he's a slick snake oil salesman.

I saw him in a "flame room" pouring his heart out for pages, to some guy, trying to get some tai zu video footage who supposedly was going to Tawan, and the guy kept putting him down.. it is disgusting. Can you believe how many posts this guy has???? He should be kicked off of this and all forums, he has nothing productive to offer, just his BS, thats it!
yuch!

JB

[neilhytholt]

I like your style man.
Did Chu really send you the dvd? Cause if he did, I would like to private message you about it.

JB

This so reminds me of the 2nd grade, when you're at the cafeteria, and some dweeb is like:

Dweeb "You can't have my chocolate milk."
You "That's okay, I've got my own chocolate milk."
Dweeb "Well mine's better. The cafeteria lady breathed on yours, and yours has cooties."
You "What are you talking about?"
Dweeb "Cootie milk. Cootie milk. Cootie milk."
You "Take that back!"
Dweeb "Call you out after school."

Guess nothing's changed since 2nd grade.

[jethro]

I bid $175,000, pretty please.

[neilhytholt]

Now Timmy, please stop fighting with Eric. You boys run along now.

Here's all the forms you could ever want in your life, and a lot cheaper than thousands of dollars.

www.cmaod.com

Want something called Emperor's?

http://www.cmaod.com/3EmperorGong.html

[Royal Dragon]

Personally, I think the moderators should take this, and all further "David Kash vs Royal Dragon" related threads and merge them into one thread so legit conversation won't be derailed by these clowns anymore.

[Royal Dragon]

Actually, there is a lot of Tai Tzu sets on that site. Infact there is enough Tai tzu commercially avaliable to build a compete Tai Tzu system if one desired to. You can get 8- -10 full legit and ancient sets from CMAOD alone...if you know what to look for. This included the "Original" 32 move form of the Emperor himself.

Yup, you can blame me if you like. I went to China and convinced all the masters to sell everything for a low VCD price of 9 buck$ each.

[Royal Dragon]

Moderators, please merge all threads, posts and comments related to this topic here.

[neilhytholt]

Actually, there is a lot of Tai Tzu sets on that site. Infact there is enough Tai tzu commercially avaliable to build a compete Tai Tzu system if one desired to. You can get 8- -10 full legit and ancient sets from CMAOD alone...if you know what to look for. This included the "Original" 32 move form of the Emperor himself.

Yup, you can blame me if you like. I went to China and convinced all the masters to sell everything for a low VCD price of 9 buck$ each.

Yep. I used to think it was so bad that the Chinese govt. had standardized wushu and stuff, but after dealing with all this political B.S. from teachers IMHO it is the best thing ever. It totally levels the playing field and elimates a ton of infighting.

Well, at least in theory.

[neilhytholt]

BTW I got my daughter totally hooked on Shaolin now because I got this movie Shaolin Kung Fu Ulysses or something like that, about a bunch of Shaolin monks that come to the U.S.

One of the girls on that video Julie Zhang is talking about how she wants to learn Shaolin and go to the Olympics and be in the movies and everything, so now all I hear from my daughter is teach me Shaolin, teach me Shaolin.

Which is a little ironic because I don't even do Shaolin or know any standardized wushu sets. I started teaching her some basic family style sets and kicks, etc., but now I gotta go hunt down a Shaolin and wushu teacher. LMAO

[Royal Dragon]

You know, I used to be against the public selling of things like this because of the whole "falling into the wrong hands" thing, but over time I have decided it is actually better this way. When everyone has thier stuff on VCD, it is easy to compare and ferret out the frauds.

Also, I used to be worried about the frauds stealing sets from VCD, but I have decided that it is better to just give them the actual sets so at the very least they are teaching what they claim to be, even if it is taught badly.

[Royal Dragon]

(I am the first one to coin the term “Emperor’s Long Fist”, (ELF) as the exact translation was not as appealing to the public. So No One Else has ever used that name before we came out with our article, some sure used it afterwards. And the Name is copyrighted and soon to be federally registered, legally) All of our books, video’s DVD’s Charts forms, etc. are legally copyrighted.

Reply]
I hear Rubio was useing it in the 70's......

[RAF]

With regard to the Wu Tan, the Tai Zu Quan did not come from Adam Hsu:

Long Fist (Changquan)

Grandmaster Liu's family have resided for generations in the Cang County, the so called "Martial Art Village". Liu's family had a Long Fist system that was passed down through generations. This system only has one routine, but contains over 300 movements. The movements of this routine are large, expansive and slow. Comparing the characteristics and the names of the movements in this Long Fist routine to the available records from the Chen Village in Wen County of Henan, it appears to be similar to the lost Long Fist routine of the Chen Village taijiquan. According to the legends, this routine was first composed by the founding emperor of the Song Dynasty. It became popular in the Ming Dynasty, and was included in the military training by General Qi JiGuang, who included such training in the "Quan Jing Jie Yiao" chapter of his book "Ji Xiao Xing Shu".
James Guo, http://www.bajimen.com/index.php?page=other

There is a Tai Tzu Quan that many of the students play that comes from Adam Hsu but it is not the same as the above. I have no experience in longfist since our school does praying mantis as it foundational start.

I also do not know of anyone who has learned the entire Tai Zu Quan form of Liu although rumors persist that some have it on video with GM Liu playing it (this did not come from my teacher but from others in the Wu Tan system). It purportedly has over 300 movements and I have seen about 32 played--no one that I know of in the Wu Tan system teaches it.

Su Lu Beng Da and Xiao Hu Yan were taught to me as praying mantis and brought into the Wu Tan curriculum by Su Yu Zhang.

[Royal Dragon]

I have what appears to be 32 postures of that set, but I too have heard it is a good 300 moves in length. That seems to fit by my research as well. Tai tzu in the Ming dynasty apears to have been taught as one really long set in many branches.

I would love to see more of this form, and I would like to compare it to the Chen style old form. I have looked for some one who knows it, and I have even spoken to a number of Liu Yun Chiao's descendants, and Adam Hsu seems to be the only one teaching it. I was told he teaches the whole set, but what I have is no where near 300 moves. I donot know if he has more or not. One of these days, when I can afford to travel I plan a visit to his shool to discuss this form.

LOL, I have a small list of people I need to travel to visit. Tai Tzu Chang Chuan is not as obscour as i orginally thought. It's around, and there are players of the style in the US who know it.

[kung fu goat]

Now Timmy, please stop fighting with Eric. You boys run along now.

Here's all the forms you could ever want in your life, and a lot cheaper than thousands of dollars.

www.cmaod.com

Want something called Emperor's?

http://www.cmaod.com/3EmperorGong.html

More videos your pathetic.
You will never learn the real thing. So keep grasping at straws.

Believe me the real thing is nothing like what you see in those videos. I know. Completely different and you phony want to be's (Gian) will never get these things. I am saying this just to feed your jealousy and envy because that is all you have. Do you honestly believe a real Grandmaster would sell his secrets over videos?

[jethro]

More videos your pathetic.
You will never learn the real thing. So keep grasping at straws.

Believe me the real thing is nothing like what you see in those videos. I know. Completely different and you phony want to be's (Gian) will never get these things. I am saying this just to feed your jealousy and envy because that is all you have. Do you honestly believe a real Grandmaster would sell his secrets over videos?


Then what the hell is on the dvd, oh wait I forgot, it's top secret. Hey pm me if you want to tell me what's on the dvd. Oh wait a second, I could have just pm'ed that inquiry:p

[jethro]

And man, Desing Sifu must be gone for the weekend. Yeah, I know, I am slow:D

[Royal Dragon]

A lot of those comercial DVD's show the outside of the forms, but not the proper structure or mechanics. They often tend to get Wushuised.

They also are generally marked. For example, certian tenchinques will be done with a horisontal fist, instead of a vertical fist, or segments are left out, or modified in such a ways as to just "represent" what is supposed to be there, but not actually show it.

When you actually know the art, you can see where it is done quite easily, if you don't, you will never know.

[neilhytholt]

More videos your pathetic.
You will never learn the real thing. So keep grasping at straws.

Believe me the real thing is nothing like what you see in those videos. I know. Completely different and you phony want to be's (Gian) will never get these things. I am saying this just to feed your jealousy and envy because that is all you have. Do you honestly believe a real Grandmaster would sell his secrets over videos?

Actually most of the so-called 'real' Grandmasters are long dead. I don't consider any American a Grandmaster anyway. Americans do not understand Chinese culture.

I have met a very few skilled Westerners at Asian martial arts, and when I say very few, I mean 3.

Of those, 2 were brought up in Asia (Okinawa and Taiwan) from the time they were kids because their parents were stationed over there. The other one his grandfather was a spy in China for the Americans.

I don't think any of us will be Grandmasters. The training methodology, culture, etc., just isn't there.

Anyway you ask am I jealous of what you have? No, not really. Why is that?

Because you're fighting over freaking long fist for goodness sake. Who the heck cares about long fist? Long fist is what you teach little boys and girls. It is the first thing you learn. It is linear and it is all basic techniques.

???

It's like you're in the middle of a grocery store and you're fighting over a loaf of white bread. ???

Edit ... Anyways I think I'm going to let my daughter study wushu now and maybe when she gets older I can show her how to actually use it. And she'll probably start with long fist because that's the basics that you teach every kid.

[lamakwoklee]

Awwwww!!! CaptinPickNose! That's it your done. Blame it on the White Man. There are certain things that will get you run from a thread. Among these is talking smack while contributing nothing of value to the discussion. How about this clones. More Tai Tzu Chang Quan information, and less flame bait, that's a good thing. Now that this thread has descended to stealing from Jim "Van Smack" Rome let it die a peaceful death before we all get sued. Out! ;)

[kung fu goat]

This is my last post on this thread. It is my recomendation.

It is that everyone (niel,RD) please keep training the same system you do. I say this only because your minds are too simple and stubborn to even understand the slightest aspect of the Emperor's Long Fist system or any other high level style.

I understand now that you will never open your minds past your own perception of ego and arrogance. There is no point in any master or otherwise offering advice, help or any information to you. Because basically you are just too dumb to understand. All your martial arts is based on speculation and guessing and not true learning and listening. Please keep it at that.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Ohhh.... I know why you PM'd me now, goat.


Your sad....

[Royal Dragon]

Goat,

All the "Secrets" are in the Taiji Ruler Qi Gong. I have the whole system, and I have had all the corrections by a really good internal player.

If you are the Kung Fu God you think you are, you know the significance of this, and you know the post you just made above just shows your inmaturaty.

[kung fu goat]

"I am The Emperor of all Tai Tzu Chang Chuan!! Muahaha ha ha ha haaaa!!"

Immaturity?

I am out.

[Royal Dragon]

It's all good clean fun!

You should try it some time, life is much more enjoyable when you aren't taking it so seriously!!

[neilhytholt]

Mr. Goat, I might be upset except that I've been through this entire thing before 'oh so secret system', 'you will never understand it', 'you don't have the right character', thing before with people. And not just once.

It's a load of crock. What causes students to argue like this is they believe the hype their teacher is selling them, and they haven't gone out and checked out what else is out there. I have even had the same argument with OYD people.

Eventually, you will learn. Maybe next month, maybe 3 months from now, maybe 3-5 years from now, with a ton of $ and time invested, you'll go, "Oh, darn."

[neilhytholt]

Oh, and Mr. Goat, BTW, when you do figure out that it's a load of crock, it's much easier to show your face in public again when you haven't gone off on others and have been more humble. :)

[jethro]

This is my last post on this thread. It is my recomendation.

It is that everyone (niel,RD) please keep training the same system you do. I say this only because your minds are too simple and stubborn to even understand the slightest aspect of the Emperor's Long Fist system or any other high level style.

I understand now that you will never open your minds past your own perception of ego and arrogance. There is no point in any master or otherwise offering advice, help or any information to you. Because basically you are just too dumb to understand. All your martial arts is based on speculation and guessing and not true learning and listening. Please keep it at that.


Wow, this has officially become the stupidest thread of all time. Yeah, it is obvious you guys won't learn anything since you are just too dumb to figure this stuff out. Kung Fu Goat, sorry I wasn't nice to you, can I be your disciple? I have $200,000 now and I can give you more later. I am retarded and not smart in general but maybe you wil take me on casue I will give you money.

And immaturity, you are calling rd out? What the hell si this thing?

"Look Gian, I am saying Quack!, Livingston, Lencionni Quack! Fraud! Liar! FAKE!"

rkung goat- -what would you call that^?


So nice job pollutign this site with your childish attempts at lurign people in like svnford. But he pronbably is just liek me and lives in a one-bedroom apartment with $2 to his name. So tell us when you clean him out, I bet it will be quick.

[Royal Dragon]

I have come to the conclusion this whole thing is some sort trial for a comedy skit, and we willl eventually see it in Anime. :p

[jethro]

I guess that is why I don't watch anime, this whoel thing is just retarded. Hopefully they taek their "all new users" trick elsewhere and not tell us things like "ha ha, you are just not smart enough, ha ha".

[neilhytholt]

I'm guessing they're bitter because they're not finding any takers for their $160,000 up front non-refundable course, which is why they dropped the price down to $500 per month with a $12,000 2-year contract, and aren't getting any takers for that either.

Oh, well. All of this is just a waste of time. Who has time anyway to study that many forms? I sure don't.

[Royal Dragon]

I think it is funny when they try to rub it in that they won't teach me anything. :p

[neilhytholt]

The ironic thing is, with kids and all, I wouldn't have time to study something new like this, and in fact, I wouldn't want to take just long fist or taiji anyway.

So the Goat would have to pay me to study it. In fact, since I wouldn't really want to study it anyway, and since it would take time away from the career, they'd have to pay me a LOT to study it, like 250,000 or more per year or something.

Actually, heck, I wouldn't even study it for 250,000 per year. How about 500,000 per year? How about a contract Goat for $2,000,000 for 4 years, paid up front? Pay me to study your longfist system.

Then I might spend 8 hours or so a day studying your long fist system.

Edit ...

Anyways, I found a nice little wushu school for my daughter and we're going to go next week. Guess how much it costs? $70 per month. A lot less than $160,000.

[BlueTravesty]

Ya know, as soon as I saw "Tai Tzu" I was waiting for David Kash's name to come up. Go get 'im! :)

[jethro]

dude what the f*** is the name of that nintendo game. AHHHHHHHHHH PLEEEEEEEEEEEZ TELL MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!

I am hurtiing, I am dying, I know the name, but can't name it.

[viper]

please explain this whole deal coz i dunno a thing wats doin.

[Royal Dragon]

Basically Kash hates me becasue he said he is the head of Chin Woo, I called Chin Woo and found out he's not even a member.

He said he was head of Won Ark Wey's line, I called Won Ark Wey's Grandson (and several others from that family) and found out he wasn't even an inner door student. He had to stop making that claim...or at least he's stopped publically.

He says he teaches ancient Tai Tzu Chang Chuan from 960 AD., but anyone I have ever talked to from his camp does a modern Yang based Taiji form plus Hsing I and Bagua and *Thinks* it is Tai Tzu. No actual Tai Tzu in site.

Either that, or they do the Chin Woo sets from back when Kash's school actually was part of Chin Woo in the late 80's, maybe early 90's, and they think THAT is Tai Tzu. Again, no Tai Tzu in site.

He's sold entire lineage inheritances to a karate guy who only had a few years of practice in it and his OWN STUDENTS admited to me that he didn't know the whole system....

He basically got busted in a bunch of lies, and now he stalks me every so often and attacks, and slanders/libels me out of anger that he got caught.

That is the whole thing in a nutshell.

Oh, he also threatened to sue me for saying "Chao" because that was his old teachers name, and he thinks only he can say it, never mind that I do the same Chao style Taiji he does.....

[BruceSteveRoy]

that nintendo game is kung fu. thats a classic. nice avatar.

[Wei Wei Wu]

Gian,

Still waiting on your address or do you not want to hear the truth about your fellow video buddy.

You are misinformed about Kash, keep your "study" up with your "video Sifus" and learn nothing at all. I would ask you to go study from someone, anyone learn from someone who can guide you. You seem to suffer from a very large ego and have delusions about not only what these videos show you, very little, and your ability to learn them. A teacher, Sifu, Sensi, Sum Ba Nim etc, any teacher not only teaches someone, form, posture etc but teaches much more, they are support, a guide and a coach.

So lets take this angle, can you learn a proper golf swing via video tape? NO. So how can you learn anything on a tape for martial arts. Its a guide, can not learn proper stances, mechanics etc. Get real Gian, study from someone and quit teaching students the stuff you have no knowledge or ability to teach. If you are teaching a kung fu history class based on your "research" then you have every right to do that, but to teach, please. Maybe oneday there will be a board, like there are for other industries to prevent unqualified individuals to teach.

Still waiting on that address.

Wei Wu

[Wei Wei Wu]

Another thing Gian,

The Karate guy you refer to, I dare you to insult him. Start that junk, that man will clean your clock.

[Royal Dragon]

I have allways studied form people better than myself. what makes you think I haven't?

[Royal Dragon]

The Karate guy you refer to, I dare you to insult him. Start that junk, that man will clean your clock.

Reply]
Lol, I highy doubt that.

[John Bean]

PUBLIC NOTICE 2006, ABOUT SIFU D.E. KASH
Emailed to Wei Wei-Wu, for Posting

This Notice is to Clear up any misconceptions about me, my last teacher, Master Chao Yuh-Feng and my credentials etc. First of all I teach the Chao Yuh-Feng family system of Emperor’s Long Fist, that I learned from Master Chao in California (deceased). I teach tai chi chuan, hsing yi, ba gua and long fist forms as taught to me by Master Chao, since 1983. We have the all of the long fist forms such as Ta hong Chuan etc. Master Chao had made me the Chief Instructor in USA for his family system. Not the whole world, as there are a couple of other Tai Tsu Chang Chuan branch’s, but are quite different from our system. The other Branch’s are very external, our system is more internal and soft and explosive, but whatever.

I have been in Chinese Martial Arts and Medicine for 41 years. I have degrees in these arts. I first heard from Ed Livingston in about 1989 after our Book Emperor’s Long Fist was published. We had an article that same month in Inside Kung Fu Magazine, Master Chao and I. (Dec. 87) We offered certificates of membership to anyone who was interested that year also selling our video on the ELF. (I am the first one to coin the term “Emperor’s Long Fist”, (ELF) as the exact translation was not as appealing to the public. So No One Else has ever used that name before we came out with our article, some sure used it afterwards. And the Name is copyrighted and soon to be federally registered, legally) All of our books, video’s DVD’s Charts forms, etc. are legally copyrighted.

Livingston (of Baltimore) was just a member only in our Cloud Forest Association (CFA) he also got a “Cross Rank”, but it was not earned. He never even met Master Chao in California, because we have 12 witness’s that will testify to that fact. He never studied from Master Chao either. We can prove this in any court of Law. We only had a small core group of dedicated students and they all know who everyone is in the group. In 1994 I relocated to North Carolina. I had one private student who was a 26 years Karate-Aikido Master, who put about an intensive 800 hours of private tutelage under me. I decided to retire as the 36th Grandmaster (patriarch) of the system, under Master Chao. And I appointed Master Bill Seibert to the position. This made several people real jealous.

Livingston got real jealous about this and the rest is history. (now Livingston had his own Branch of CFA at that time, and 2 (two) video’s that I sold him on the ELF, that’s it!) he was given a couple of charts etc. on the subject also. We seemed to be good friends, although he came to visit me here in NC 2 or 3 times, but was not able to learn the forms very well for some reason. Even the Karate guy learned them easily… As time went by I was told by a student that there was gossip on the internet about me.

Well, I checked it out, just to find out what kind of a jealous snake Livingston was. He had sold a video to a nobody guy named Gian Lencioni in Chicago, and a yellow belt for (?$$$?) and the next thing you know I was being plastered with slander and malicious gossip on several forums. Lencioni even had the balls to set up a royal dragon tai zu chang chuan homepage, using our Chao family style names etc. He called me and I was polite the first time I talked to him. I even sold him a copy of our ELF Book! Lencioni used any and all information in the ELF Book to pervert anything he could.

Lencioni has been doing this for almost 6 years now. He has infringed on our legal copyrights and a lot of other infractions. He threatened to sell our 36 form video, I told him, “go ahead, let people see the crap you do, then they can see the real thing. This man is at best, a deranged, with delusions of grandeur of wanting to be somebody. I can understand the jealousy, as our style is a royal style, and he would like to be a member, or learn, but he will never receive any information from me or my students again. Lencioni, has no respect for a real master, or real style.

A lot of our students are Doctors of Medicine, some are Law Enforcement, some are in Government and Military. They find it hard to believe that someone can do this for so many years. It is unreal. Almost like a “stalker”?

I thought it was about time to set the record straight. After all, 6 years is enough of the Bull Crap from a Liar. I have students world wide. One of my students got a gold medal in China in 1975. I am respected by the Chinese Martial Arts Masters of renown in various countries. We have a real Chin Woo Association and can prove it!

My students have done well at fighting and other events at tournaments and in Iraq, right now. We have a lot of Military people train with us. If anyone wants to know anything about me, please call me or email me at realkungfu@earthlink.net or email Wei Wei-Wu, as he and I go back a long time and he is to be trusted. A simple email or telephone call at (336) 748-0038, can verify that I wrote this Public Notice letter. Please don't take the word of a jealous, insecure quack, whose only ambition is to try to hurt other people and their reputation.
Grandmaster D.E. Kash

[John Bean]

Dear Sir, With the greatest of respect I saw a post on your behalf on the Kung-Fu Magazine forum recently which in part concerned one Gian Lencioni ("Royal Dragon"). This person acts like an authority of Tai Zhu and the martial arts in general. I beleive that his "training" is mainly via video! I contacted one Edgar Livingston regarding the background of Gian Lencioni and this is what he wrote: "Gian was a student of mine years ago and only made it to beginner level of Tai Tzu Chang Chuan after that he continued his training elsewhere, he says through videos. Gian had only one weekend of personal training from me. The stances are poor examples of Tai Tzu and as I said before, Gian was only a beginner student under me. He claims that he got his Tai Tzu from other masters when I would not promote him, at that time he needed a lot of work. Gian has claim to study and has connections to many in Tai Tzu, but he has never told me anyone besides Jamie Scuffell that was his teacher." Sir, I am researching Gian Lencioni's so called background in the martial arts and would greatly appreciate any and all information you have on this questionable individual. I welcome your reply and look forward to hearing from you soon. Kind regards, Ron Goninan ~ Chairman/Director. White Crane Research Institute. Member: Martial Arts Industry Association. International Martial Arts

[John Bean]

AS you can see, there is concern about the above named people. They are a real threat to society, they are a cancer, they also infect other misguided people. I mean, c'mon now the guy, Gian Lencioni has what... 7000 posts?

Get a freakin Life. Yes the 26 years Karate guy that you put down is wee narly, he is tough. Why dont you tell him to his face Gian???

Where is the NAME OF THE "SO CALLED KASH STUDENT" IN CALIFORNIA, that you said... you talked to, (and you did not, as you are a filthy LIAR,) this prooves it, dosent it?

If you really had a "Name"... believe me, you would have dropped it by now. Dont you see what a habitual Liar you are? You have sickness man, wake up! Go see a head doctor, check into a clinic. No wonder your wife divorced you, you beaaach! Who could put up with that crap for so many years??

You get on Grandmaster Kash's case for no real reason, you dont even know the man, or what he teaches, but you will continue to bad mouth him... Thats a sick motherfer. You could not even make a pimple on any of Kash's worst students.

Your just a karate video wanna be guy KFBM kung fu by mail LOOSER!

Wei Wei Wu called your bluff! Put up or SHUT UP

John Bean

[Royal Dragon]

You are going to Ron Goninan for verification now? Oh lord how the frauds flock together! :rolleyes:

[Royal Dragon]

No wonder your wife divorced you, you beaaach! Who could put up with that crap for so many years??



Reply]
Yet I was awarded custody of my daughter........

[Shaolindynasty]

Did I miss somthing? When did royal dragon say he was an emperor? I thought he got his name from a restraunt?

[Royal Dragon]

He's refering to the title under my Avatar. He thinks that is some sort of proclemation of rulership or something.

The rest of the world knows I'm just being silly.

As for the name, it actually comes from the Legand of Tsao Tu Ming's Worm, not the restraunt.

[John Bean]

NOTICE TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC
CONCERNING DAVID KASH & TAI ZU CHANG CHUAN
(AKA EMPEROR’S LONG FIST)
June 12, 2006

A Mr. John Bean, was nice enough to post this Notice for me concerning a man named Gian Lencioni (aka) Royal Dragon, who calls himself “the emperor”. For about six years he has tried to Slander me, our School and our style etc. with complete and false lies and accusations totally unfounded, as we can prove who we are and what we teach. He can not prove any of the lies or hoaxes he has perpetrated.

I have sent to Gene Ching, the KFM forum moderator, (at the request of our Attorney) in the regular mail, copies of our Chin Woo Association status, my appointment as Chief Instructor in the USA for Chao Yuh Feng Family Tai Tsu Chang Chuan (aka “Emperor’s Long Fist”, a term that I personally coined in 1983 and we have copyrights on this name and on our Books, videos etc.) and a copy of a hand written letter about me, by Grandmaster Chao himself that was in our Book, 1988.

If Gene Ching would kindly make a statement to this effect, of having verified the copies I sent to him, it would be nice to set the record straight once and for all and end this undue harassment and slander by Gian Lencioni.

Any further information regarding me or our School, I can be contacted at realkungfu@earthlink.net or by telephone at (336) 748-0038
DE. Kash

[jethro]

Mr. Bean, I am serious now. You haev no point whatsoeevr being on here. I mean I could understand if SOMEONE agreed with you on this site. But seriously, how freaking redundant can you get?

[John Bean]

about the only thing you can be royally sure of is that you, gian lencioni are the emperess of FRAUF, DECIET, LIES, SLANDER, BACKBITING, KARATE VIDEOS BY MAIL , OH.. AND STEPHEN ABATE HE SAID YOU NEVER STUDIED FROM HIM, ANOTHER LIE??



LOOK, GIAN I'M SAYING LENCIONI & LIVINGSTON, FRAUDS WANNA BE'S

[jethro]

:p :confused:

[jethro]

do You Think That You Can Post More Than Me>

[jethro]

you Can Try

[John Bean]

NOTICE TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC
CONCERNING DAVID KASH & TAI ZU CHANG CHUAN
(AKA EMPEROR’S LONG FIST)
June 12, 2006

A Mr. John Bean, was nice enough to post this Notice for me concerning a man named Gian Lencioni (aka) Royal Dragon, who calls himself “the emperor”. For about six years he has tried to Slander me, our School and our style etc. with complete and false lies and accusations totally unfounded, as we can prove who we are and what we teach. He can not prove any of the lies or hoaxes he has perpetrated.

I have sent to Gene Ching, the KFM forum moderator, (at the request of our Attorney) in the regular mail, copies of our Chin Woo Association status, my appointment as Chief Instructor in the USA for Chao Yuh Feng Family Tai Tsu Chang Chuan (aka “Emperor’s Long Fist”, a term that I personally coined in 1983 and we have copyrights on this name and on our Books, videos etc.) and a copy of a hand written letter about me, by Grandmaster Chao himself that was in our Book, 1988.

If Gene Ching would kindly make a statement to this effect, of having verified the copies I sent to him, it would be nice to set the record straight once and for all and end this undue harassment and slander by Gian Lencioni.

Any further information regarding me or our School, I can be contacted at realkungfu@earthlink.net or by telephone at (336) 748-0038
DE. Kash

[jethro]

thank You.

[jethro]

I THOUGHT I WOULD GO AHEAD AND POST THIS OVER AND OVER JUST TO MAKE SURE THAT MR BEANS COMMENTS WIL BE HARD TO READ, HEE HEE HEE.
























:eek:



























:p

[John Bean]

NOTICE TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC
CONCERNING DAVID KASH & TAI ZU CHANG CHUAN
(AKA EMPEROR’S LONG FIST)
June 12, 2006

A Mr. John Bean, was nice enough to post this Notice for me concerning a man named Gian Lencioni (aka) Royal Dragon, who calls himself “the emperor”. For about six years he has tried to Slander me, our School and our style etc. with complete and false lies and accusations totally unfounded, as we can prove who we are and what we teach. He can not prove any of the lies or hoaxes he has perpetrated.

I have sent to Gene Ching, the KFM forum moderator, (at the request of our Attorney) in the regular mail, copies of our Chin Woo Association status, my appointment as Chief Instructor in the USA for Chao Yuh Feng Family Tai Tsu Chang Chuan (aka “Emperor’s Long Fist”, a term that I personally coined in 1983 and we have copyrights on this name and on our Books, videos etc.) and a copy of a hand written letter about me, by Grandmaster Chao himself that was in our Book, 1988.

If Gene Ching would kindly make a statement to this effect, of having verified the copies I sent to him, it would be nice to set the record straight once and for all and end this undue harassment and slander by Gian Lencioni.

Any further information regarding me or our School, I can be contacted at realkungfu@earthlink.net or by telephone at (336) 748-0038
DE. Kash

[jethro]

i Thought I Would Go Ahead And Post This Over And Over Just To Make Sure That Mr beans Comments Wil Be Hard To Read, Hee Hee Hee.

































Haaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaa

Ha














Ha

[David Jamieson]

Consternation with what is said in a public discussion forum is weird.

No one 'really' cares and this thread will eventually vanish only to be pulled up 5 years from now by someon who wants to stir things. :P

Now fight and get it over with.

fight fight fight! :D

[jethro]

well, if john wants to come from "wash" to omaha, I will be more than happy to show him his kung fu is shlt.

[John Bean]

NOTICE TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC
CONCERNING DAVID KASH & TAI ZU CHANG CHUAN
(AKA EMPEROR’S LONG FIST)
June 12, 2006

A Mr. John Bean, was nice enough to post this Notice for me concerning a man named Gian Lencioni (aka) Royal Dragon, who calls himself “the emperor”. For about six years he has tried to Slander me, our School and our style etc. with complete and false lies and accusations totally unfounded, as we can prove who we are and what we teach. He can not prove any of the lies or hoaxes he has perpetrated.

I have sent to Gene Ching, the KFM forum moderator, (at the request of our Attorney) in the regular mail, copies of our Chin Woo Association status, my appointment as Chief Instructor in the USA for Chao Yuh Feng Family Tai Tsu Chang Chuan (aka “Emperor’s Long Fist”, a term that I personally coined in 1983 and we have copyrights on this name and on our Books, videos etc.) and a copy of a hand written letter about me, by Grandmaster Chao himself that was in our Book, 1988.

If Gene Ching would kindly make a statement to this effect, of having verified the copies I sent to him, it would be nice to set the record straight once and for all and end this undue harassment and slander by Gian Lencioni.

Any further information regarding me or our School, I can be contacted at realkungfu@earthlink.net or by telephone at (336) 748-0038
DE. Kash

[jethro]

:)















































:confused:










































:eek:










































:mad:


































:rolleyes:









































:cool:




















































:p

[John Bean]

NOTICE TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC
CONCERNING DAVID KASH & TAI ZU CHANG CHUAN
(AKA EMPEROR’S LONG FIST)
June 12, 2006

A Mr. John Bean, was nice enough to post this Notice for me concerning a man named Gian Lencioni (aka) Royal Dragon, who calls himself “the emperor”. For about six years he has tried to Slander me, our School and our style etc. with complete and false lies and accusations totally unfounded, as we can prove who we are and what we teach. He can not prove any of the lies or hoaxes he has perpetrated.

I have sent to Gene Ching, the KFM forum moderator, (at the request of our Attorney) in the regular mail, copies of our Chin Woo Association status, my appointment as Chief Instructor in the USA for Chao Yuh Feng Family Tai Tsu Chang Chuan (aka “Emperor’s Long Fist”, a term that I personally coined in 1983 and we have copyrights on this name and on our Books, videos etc.) and a copy of a hand written letter about me, by Grandmaster Chao himself that was in our Book, 1988.

If Gene Ching would kindly make a statement to this effect, of having verified the copies I sent to him, it would be nice to set the record straight once and for all and end this undue harassment and slander by Gian Lencioni.

Any further information regarding me or our School, I can be contacted at realkungfu@earthlink.net or by telephone at (336) 748-0038
DE. Kash

[jethro]

For some reason you think that I will not post over you. I am here all day. I tell you what. iget offf work at 12:00 AM, you have about 10 hours befoer I will check it then. So maybe someone will read your qweak ass crybaby story. I hope you did send a message to gene chign so he can look up your posts and see that you came ion this site for one reason, to mess with royal draqgon. This shlt started a while ago and it should have enede. Where is chui at, ioh sorry chu, didn't know I was talking to you. Thou you still haevn't created another user name yet. WTF, I expected that by yesterday. Hopefull we wil meet one day, casue I guarantee I will do aLL I can to **** you off so that that day happens.

[John Bean]

Trust me, the Karat Guy is Narly, you wouldnt have a chance in hell

why dont you tell him yourself Gian

his name is Bill Seibert
:)
JB

[John Bean]

OK, HERE IS THE KARATE GUYS HOMEPAGE, GO THERE AND CHALLENGE HIM IF YOU DARE, AS WEI WEI WU HAS WARNED YOU ABOUT HIM. OH YES, BETTER BRING JETHRO WITH YA, CAUSE YOUR GONNA NEED EM

JB


http://www.emperorslongfist.com/

[jethro]

Do you have any idea how freaking stupid you are?

Let me tell you how dumb your freaking posts are
it is almost as dumb as this one










not quite there



































































































































































































































































this would come close to explaining it, but i guess your stupidness cannot be put into words, oh well, i will try to clarify myself next timeyou post.