Where did kung fu come from?

[jethro]

I have heard stories about how an evil prince killing hundreds of people to find out the weak points onteh human body.

I have also heard this weird story about how someone came to shaolin and showed the monks 18 excercises to help tehm from going asleep, and that is where it started. Does anyone know why they couldn't stay awake.

But seriously, does anyone recognize either of the stories or know for a fact where kung fu derives form?

[WanderingMonk]

I have heard stories about how an evil prince killing hundreds of people to find out the weak points onteh human body.

I have also heard this weird story about how someone came to shaolin and showed the monks 18 excercises to help tehm from going asleep, and that is where it started. Does anyone know why they couldn't stay awake.

But seriously, does anyone recognize either of the stories or know for a fact where kung fu derives form?


when a caveman somewhere in modern day china decided that he needed to organize his fighting strategies into a system many many moons ago.

[jethro]

I thought it was many moons ago.

[David Jamieson]

100's of moons would be a safe bet, but it was probably more moons than that.

[jethro]

Has there always been one moon or did we used to have more moons many moons ago?

[jethro]

just wanted ya guys to know, I am not asking this as a joke. I may not be the smartest person, but I am kinda hoping that I can get a definitive answer or something.

[BruceSteveRoy]

as far as i know it went something like this...

Ta mo ( a buddhist monk) traveled from India to Northern China by way of the silk road and brought with him Chan Buddhism. He went to the largest Buddhist temple in China which was in Hebei province to teach the concept of spontaneous enlightenment. WHen he got there the monks were are in very poor physical shape and couldn't even endure long periods of meditation. (maybe when you heard they were sleeping it was talking about there inability to meditate without falling asleep). So he began teaching them the sinew metamorphesis and the 18 palms of buddha. from that it became shaolin lohan quan. I think that is considered the first form of kung fu.

i may have some details wrong in the retelling and i know i am leaving a lot of aspects out but i am at work and it is kind of a long story. If you want to read a good book about it check out Wong Kiew Kit's "the art of shaolin kungfu" its an interesting read and covers the history part pretty well. i read it years ago so sorry if i confused any of the details.

[jethro]

Thank you B. i am doing research myself, but just the other day I heard this guy tell a story about that whole sleepign theory. I am coming up with nothing, but that dude was serious, so I wil certainly keep my ears open.

[David Jamieson]

jethro-

the codification of martial arts into systems cannot be pinpointed to one historical moment or text.

Best estimates can be given from what remains and there are some very old texts and materials regarding martial arts methods. But they are extremely rare and often in languages that are antiquated and difficult for the lay person to comprehend.

For instance, who know's how to speak pali? or latin?
Also consider how much has been lost intellectual wise during the various reigns of various dynastic lords and what not and in regards to chinese martial art the amount swallowed up by the 66-76 cultural revolution and the changes made to martial arts in china since the 50's.

Historical evidence shows martial practice back to the very beginnings of recorded history from virtually all classical cultures.

The invention of defending oneself never happened, one did, or did not.
Systematizing something like pugilism would've been done in context to not only war and the use of tactics but also with sport. IN ancient times, the correlation between sport and war was much more meaningful and understood than it is today, but that's a different ball of wax.

Essentially, the first time someone said "If that mountain lion comes around again, poke him with this pointy thing and make a lot of noise, he'll go away and it worked for me, so it should work for you" then that is a lesson in defending oneself.

There is no single origin, but codified martial arts have made some interesting stops along the way to where they are in the here and now which I can guarantee you is nothing like they were even only 100 years ago.

[jethro]

becasue we don't have an exact answer is all the moer reason to disxcuss stories like tamo, monks studying animals, cruel prince killing hundreds just to find the weak points in a human body, somebody coming to shaolin and giving the monks excersises so they would stay awake:confused:

China has the longest recorded history on this earth, I would like to at least place some things in order, get rid of myths, just try to find out the truth in general.

[David Jamieson]

the stay awake thing is bugging you eh? :p

the arduous meditation practices of a buddhist monk, linked with light diet and no exercise = fatigue most of the time.

Bodhidharma introduced exercise to increase vitality and strengt in the monks so they could endure their fastidious meditation periods which lasted a very long time.

Bodhidharma also brought Ch'an with him, which in practice is a difficult undertaking. The mind wanders when it lacks purpose or intention. THis same lacking of purpose and intention leads to boredom and distraction.

Bodhidharma also reputedly introduced the drinking of tea to the monks in order to maintain alertness when in stillness which is part of what Ch'an is.

The exercises introduced where from Dhayana practice (dhayana is sanskrit version of word Ch'an which is zen in japanese and better known as such)

Dhayana practice was not entirely unknown in China before the coming of Bodhidharma, but it was not widely known and it was not widely spread through the large institution that was the buddhist monastic order system which reinged supreme across china in that time (500 ad or so with spikes before and after depending on which warlord was running the show and how threatened they were by religious power)

It could be said that Dhayana exercises were mixed in with martial practice at a much later time when there were troubles, peasant uprisings and of course the well storied tale of the 300 year reign of the Qing dynasty which sprouted all sorts of underground secret military societies.

The Tang dynasty which is pre ming (by quite a few years) was said to be a golden era for chinese martial arts with even greater developments being made later in the Ming dynasty by the Shaolin Order. It is during the Ming dynasty that we hear about the tales of the saving of the emperor and the theft of horses and the emperor granting the monks teh right to eat meat and drink wine... Many of the tales of shaolin and it's prowess as a place were one could develop kungfu take place in this dynasty.

In the dynasty that follows, the Qing dynasty, we hear more incredible tales of rebels and shaolin monks who aid them in their quest to defeat the Qing. Here we see the time of teh Hung society, the white lotus society and various other groups who are criminal at the time but nevertheless soldiers, scholars, warriors, monks, fishmongers you name it and they were to be found looking for a way to defeat the usurpers and to restore China to the Chinese. Afterall, are we not only men? :p

Anyway, you're gonna hear a lot of things about origins of martial arts and you're gonna hear some stuff that will really make you go wtf?? lol

take it in stride and with a grain of salt where necessary. can't rush understanding afterall. It only comes with time and effort.

[jethro]

thank you, I really neded to do some moer research and ask better questions. :)

[kwaichang]

Try reading the Bahisatva Warrior in paper back it tells of the eruveda? spelling and the ancient indian fighting methods thought to be the fore runner of CMA KC

[mantis108]

In a nutshell, you can find all the cultural and academic underpinnings all the way back to the Palaeolithic period (C. 20,000 to 8,000 BCE). This was the hunter-gatherer age. By the time of Early Civiliastions periond (C. 4,000 to 800 BCE), feudal confederacy, which some people also consider it Republic of ancient China, warefare became quite scientific already. The break down of the last Republic (Zhou dynasty) and the increasingly commerce base economy created a few professional opportunities for the warriors who lost their employments with their former employers due to the fortune of war. We know that swordsman for hire (assasins, retainers or entertainers) exsited during the Axial age (c. 800 to 200 BCE). Since the Post- Axial period (c. 200 BCE to 1500 CE), we have 5 main sources of martial academia - military personels, teachers, guards/militia, armed escorts, and bandits (also includes insurgents). Each specializes in its area of expertise.

Shaolin was build around 400s CE. Bodhidharma (Ta Ma) arrived around (520-527 CE). It was until almost Tang dynasty (618 - 906 CE) that Shaolin was known for its martial prowess. The 13 monks with sticks saving the first Emperor of Tang dynasty got them a lot of prestiege and favors including lands and excemptions from having a straight vegeterian diet. Contruary to popular believe Buddhists weren't necessarily all pacificists and vegeterians. There was a creed by the Emperor who built the Shaolin temple that ordered all the monk orders in China to become vegeterian. Shaolin didn't have its own martial arts except may be staff and stick, which could be based in Kalipayattu tradition that might have been brought by Bodhidharma or other Indian monks. It is believed that 5 animals were created or brought from outside of Shaolin temple around Yuan Dyansty (1206- 1368 CE). By mid or late Ming dynasty (1368 - 1644 CE) there's hardly any evidence of the 5 animals fist left in Shaolin temple but stick and staff method of Shaolin was quite highly regarded by the military and the secular MA community. We also know there are a lot more military and martial arts manuscripts writen or available during the Ming dynasty. These would be the first evidence of systemized martial arts as we know it. This trend continues onto well after the Great Western Transformation (c. 1,500 to 2000 CE). Many important systles such as Yongchun Baihe, Shandong Tanglang, Nan Tanglang, Hong Jia, Wing Chun, Cai Li Fo, Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua, Dongjiang Longxing, etc... were found during this period.

Personally, Kung Fu didn't originated from Henan Shaolin temple. Rather it permeates Chinese cultures and it came from whence the need of food and self defense began. Systemized Kung Fu evolved through out time. As Chinese cutlure matures (the terroir if you will), the Kung Fu like the great Champagne that ages ever so closely to perfection. Shaolin Kung Fu, if at all existed, is but the dosage of pinot noir that makes the Champagne all the more unique in taste.

Mantis108

[jethro]

Ditto My Last Comment Above. Thank You!

[Sal Canzonieri]

I've been doing research on the history of CMA for over 20 years.

The Damo Legend is a total fabrication, it wasn't until the 1600s that this started appearing, and it was in a novel.

basically, in a nutshell, the oldest CMA is Shuai-Jiao, which is the art of takedowns, and it is about 4,000 + years old.
From it, all the CMA spring from in some way or another.
Tong Bei is the next oldest style, about 3000+ years old, so is sword fighting, which is related to tong bei moves.

All CMAs show some part of Shuai Jiao and Tong Bei in their forms and techniques.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Ned was a man from China who lived many many many (count them...three) moons ago. Being so primitive the only thing Ned could think about was what he had to do to get laid again. Since primitive minds can only think of two things, sex and fighting for sex, Ned began to formulate. If he could beat the pi ss out of some other dudes in front of some cave-chicks, then maybe he could impress them and head to bed with them. At the very least he could beat them unconcious and have his way with them. The next day, Ned went to the river to try his theory out. At the river lived this huge Ded Rabid named Jeremy of the North. Ned needed to go for the gusto so he went for the obvious challenge....One-Legged Man Chan. So Ned walks over to where One-Legged Man Chan is standing and kicks his crutch (which was made from Mammoth femur) from underneath him. Ned then proceeded to stomp the poor one-legged man while screaming obscenities and badmouthing the his mother. What Ned doubted was the Jeremy of the North had a heart. While the pummling was mid swing, Jeremy grabs Ned by his leg and rips his foot off. Ned begins screaming, which further enraged the giant. Jeremy then ripped Neds tounge in half and gave him one solid kick to the face. The cave-chicks ran over to Jeremy of the North and began singing his praise while caressing his caveman eyebrow ridge. Ned awakened in time to see Jeremy of the North wrapping his massive cave man arms around the cave-chicks. Ned had to redeem himself. With the last amount of his energy he called out to the behemoth."Ay...." "Kunk Fu!" and raised his middle finger in his direction.

Thus, we can surmount that Kung Fu is based on a slanderous phrase ment to express discontent for missing out on some cave-chick pelt.

The End

[David Jamieson]

I've been doing research on the history of CMA for over 20 years.

The Damo Legend is a total fabrication, it wasn't until the 1600s that this started appearing, and it was in a novel.

basically, in a nutshell, the oldest CMA is Shuai-Jiao, which is the art of takedowns, and it is about 4,000 + years old.
From it, all the CMA spring from in some way or another.
Tong Bei is the next oldest style, about 3000+ years old, so is sword fighting, which is related to tong bei moves.

All CMAs show some part of Shuai Jiao and Tong Bei in their forms and techniques.


you're research is thin. Bodhidharma is a tricky one, but the patriarchs of Ch'an who followed and teh ultimate creation of Ch'an as a buddhist sect within the mahayana school came to be long before the 1600's.

what exactly were you researching to come to this conclusion?

as for shaui chiao, well, throw horn or "wrestling" has been a sportive pastime in every culture on the planet. You don't honestly think that what is codified shuai chiao in teh hear and now is anything like the ancient wrestling practices do you? I mean wrestling is wrestling and throwing is throwing, but the actual codified and systematized methods of shuai chiao today are NOT anything like the primitive foundations of the ancients. Anymore than boxing today is anything what it was like in the early 1900's.

Things evolve all the time. In our minds and then in our practice.
all cmas do not have throwing and through the back boxing. That is probably one of the most far fetched things I've read today sal. But thanks! it was interesting. :p

[Sal Canzonieri]

Of course, yeah, the Ch'an sect is part of Shaolin martial arts development.
I only was referring to Damo as being just a legend. This has been discussed in detail many times in the forum and in print.
The first mentions of him 'developing' Shaolin KF are from the 1600s.

And, yes, it would have been more exact if if I said, ancient chinese grappling which led to Shuai Jiao and ancient chinese boxing which led to tong bei are the oldest CMA
and along with sword fighting, etc are the most obvious roots of KF.

About throwing, I debate what you said. I think that the moves in every form there is in any style of CMA can be applied as takedowns. If you do any form from any style and someone grabs your wrists while doing the movements, you will take them down without kicking or punching them, even though the move looks like kicking or punching. Try it, take any form you know. Even karate and TKD forms work this way.

And tong bei movements are found in many many CMA styles(tia ji, ba qua, shaolin, tai tzu, cha quan, pi qua, ba ji, etc, etc), they've been altered with the ideas of that style, but they are in application and in essence the same moves.

If a certain move, from many different styles, in application has the same result and the same function, it is essentially the same move, no matter what the various style might call that move.

[mantis108]

While I agreed that Tongbi (Tongbei) is one of the old style of Kung Fu. I am curious as to what evidences support it as the oldest style? What is this ancient Chinese boxing that you are referring to?


And, yes, it would have been more exact if if I said, ancient chinese grappling which led to Shuai Jiao and ancient chinese boxing which led to tong bei are the oldest CMA
and along with sword fighting, etc are the most obvious roots of KF.

About throwing, I debate what you said. I think that the moves in every form there is in any style of CMA can be applied as takedowns. If you do any form from any style and someone grabs your wrists while doing the movements, you will take them down without kicking or punching them, even though the move looks like kicking or punching. Try it, take any form you know. Even karate and TKD forms work this way.

And tong bei movements are found in many many CMA styles(tia ji, ba qua, shaolin, tai tzu, cha quan, pi qua, ba ji, etc, etc), they've been altered with the ideas of that style, but they are in application and in essence the same moves.

If a certain move, from many different styles, in application has the same result and the same function, it is essentially the same move, no matter what the various style might call that move.

I would have to say this is quite a giant leap of faith. I can't help but wonder if you are aware that you are justifying the mean with the end? It seems to me that you are blurring the line of styles with "oh, if their moves can be applied as a throw or takedown, it's Shuai Jiao+Tongbei alright". Furthermore, it goes to grand daddy-dized Tongbei without adequately qualifying it with any solid evidence but with only vague comment of its movements that are supposedly common to any and all styles? How about giving an analysis on the system's theories, training protocol, fighting approach, and/or philiosophical footing. What about the historic evidence on its proliferation? How and why does it get into all other systems?

BTW, I have heard that Tongbei as we know it might have Muslim connection. If so how is it Chinese in origin? Is there any hard evidence to support Chinese origin other than the Chen Tuan Daoist sage legend?

Regards

Mantis108

[richard sloan]

The first evidence of MA practice in Shaolin was not from Damo, according to Shaolin.

Batuo's two disciples practiced.

[DRleungjan]

Wow...Bodhidruci's disples practiced the arts? Now, that's interesting...is it known what they called the art they practiced?



DRleungjan :)

[Shaolinlueb]

it all came from when the first caveman first hit another one.

[richard sloan]

Wow...Bodhidruci's disples practiced the arts? Now, that's interesting...is it known what they called the art they practiced?



DRleungjan :)

I'm not aware of any mention of specific styles, but only anecdotal records such as teacher Chou could leap over a man, lift heavy weights, strike quickly and fiercely, keep a shuttle**** aloft around the rim of a well, take care of dangerous animals- that kind of stuff. I think most of this is from Biographies of Imminent Monks. I'm a little hazy on the details but can try and find my notes.

I know that in our family the tradition holds that there were 5 martial forebears who are held to be important above and beyond- Bato's two disciples Seng Chou and Hui Guang are said to be the first to practice martial arts within the temple, then Hui Ke and Damo, and of course Fu Yu.

[DRleungjan]

Thanks alot richard,


Anything you can come up with will be appreciated.


DRleungjan :)

[jethro]

Thank you guy tell a story about that whole sleepign theory. I am coming up with nothing, but that dude was serious, so I wil certainly keep my ears open.

Alright, I asked him for a confirmation. I misunderstood him but not completely. He says it was Tamo himself who brought the 18 excercises to the monks. And that is where shaolin kung fu began. I guess I meant to ask where shaolin kung fu came from, btu theis is much more interesting. Please continue.

[richard sloan]

well a lot of people carry this misconception that Damo (Tamo) brought martial arts to Shaolin, and that that is the birthplace of chinese martial arts.

but we know this is not true, and the monks themselves do not hold it as true.

dr, I'll look around later tonight- but I think a google search on Seng Chou and "Shaolin" will probably shed light on some of the sources.

[jethro]

thank you for clearing that up for me in a pm david.

Richard

FYI- my last post said that I heard tamo brought the 18 excercises to SHAOLIN, and that is where "shaolin" martial arts came from. I am sure that you know that is what I said in my post, just thought i would clear that up just in case. And also, trying to find the earliest examples of martial arts that you guys are talking about is f*k*ing fascinatingly mindblowing:D

good stuff

[richard sloan]

yeah man everything's cool and easy- now you can drop a bomb on your friend and hit him with some info.

[Green Cloud]

Hey Rich hope all is well, I got a question, I was just wondering where you guys buy your pants I realy like them especialy the orange ones are they sold at Shi Yang Ming's or do you guys have a distributor??? Amituofo

[richard sloan]

Hey Rich hope all is well, I got a question, I was just wondering where you guys buy your pants I realy like them especialy the orange ones are they sold at Shi Yang Ming's or do you guys have a distributor??? Amituofo

Hey GC- everything is cool. Just got back from doing a Xiao Hong/Ji Ben gong seminar in Mexico City. Mx City was NUTS. The sheer vastness can not be described.

And the food- I ate at every tortilleria and street stand I could get to. And tortas. They take tamales and put them in between two pieces of buttered mexican bread. God man, it sounds strange but it is delish. There is a small Barrio de China too, one block, but of course Shifu managed to locate the shop with the best noodles. I swear I think the noodles were actually trembling when he spotted them. I love how Chinese introduce local flavor and hybridize the cuisine- our favorite dish was a beef or vegetable ho fun soup with all kinds of mexican chillies and roasted jalapenos.

We also got to meet Monsignor Monroy- who I was told was like 3rd guy down from the Pope as far as Mexico is concerned, for a special audience and a personal presentation of the icon there at the basilica.

Well there was tons of stuff going on. Mexico is thirsty for TCMA.

I met a mexica indian who knew how to make a maquahuitl, so I am really looking forward to going back and collecting that!

The pants- you know we actually get these made ourselves, custom. A bunch of us were in the fashion industry- I used to work for Caffeine, you may have heard of it being from L.I. Anyway I don't think they break sets so they sell it as a whole robe set.

I'll pm you.

Okay- here is the record on Seng Chou I have- you know I think there was a post on this forum about this- in the Record of Shaolinsi and also in the Biographies of Eminent Monks- Seng Chou became a monk at Shaolin in the 19th Year of Taihe- he is also mentioned in Taiping Guangji, and also Jiushi Jiwen, SengChou could leap over a man's head, lift a weight of a 1,000 jun, throw a punch quickly and fiercely, and move without sound.

In one of these sources Hui Guang was said to have been seen kicking a shuttlecok around the rim of a well in Luoyang as an exhibition of his martial skill, and also Seng Chou was seen to seperate two fighting animals.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Actually...after some research it turns out I was wrong....Ha...go figure:p

In reality, Kung Fu came when Jesus wanted to smite King Giddorah for selling some smack to Judas. Turns out that a head full of herion is what inspired the greatest back stab....and Kung Fu!

[DRleungjan]

Okay- here is the record on Seng Chou I have- you know I think there was a post on this forum about this- in the Record of Shaolinsi and also in the Biographies of Eminent Monks- Seng Chou became a monk at Shaolin in the 19th Year of Taihe- he is also mentioned in Taiping Guangji, and also Jiushi Jiwen, SengChou could leap over a man's head, lift a weight of a 1,000 jun, throw a punch quickly and fiercely, and move without sound.

In one of these sources Hui Guang was said to have been seen kicking a shuttlecok around the rim of a well in Luoyang as an exhibition of his martial skill, and also Seng Chou was seen to seperate two fighting animals.


Ah, thanks a mil richard!



DRleungjan

[Green Cloud]

Thanks rich, I'm realy jealous sounds like you've been having a blast. Thanks for the info about the pants, actualy I was reading Your shifu's new book and I saw the pants and said to mys elf I got to have them.

It's hard to find quality gear now a days that one can train in, I hate the fancy dancy uniforms with a million frog buttons. I know most folks like the elastick on the ankles but I feel restricted.

Sorry for barging in on this thread and going all off topic and what not. Talk to you soon. Amituofu

[TenTigers]

from what I have heard, and Richard can probably supply more info, DaMo brought in the Muscle Change Classic and Marrow Washing, and of course, Chan Buddhism.
Kung-Fu already existed and was being practiced at Shaolin, but by adding the Ch'i-Gung to it was like adding the Nos system,turbo,blower,cams, etc , thus bringing Martial Arts to a higher level. Look at what modern training methods,supplementation, nutrition has done to Olympic sports. A little bit of knowledge goes a long way.

[Shaolin Master]

The need for origins and ends is a common issue amongst people. Sometimes the answer is not as important as the quest.

Kung fu in the reference to martial arts has no definite origin as some have alluded to rather it is formed from the graduate development of various methods to combat. Be it Shuaijiao or otherwise is irrelevant.

In terms of Tongbeiquan....well being a practitioner our history does not support an old origin. Basically Tongbeiquan was founded by Qi Family who were originally practitioners of moslem Liuhequan, then added Mingtanggong and other various skills via Qi Xin and further developed by Qi Taichang.

In terms of Shaolin, as Richard correctly stated the disciples of Batuo (Such as Sun Zhougu (Sengzhou) and Yang Huiguang) were skillful in the martial arts. In terms of Damo, those stories of the 18 whatever etc...have been out there for so long....the only important component is that of Chan Buddhism.

Kind Regards
Wu Chanlong.

[richard sloan]

GC- you don't have to be too jealous man, we got all that good food right in holbrook!! believe it or not. well maybe not all of it, lol...but I did stumble onto a little taqueria in a strip mall opposite one of my other favorite haunts, which is a turkish joint- actually kurdish on rt 112. The guy in there actually cuts his own gyro cutlets and presses them onto a spit. Before he expanded the place I saw him dressing down a whole lamb- this soccer mom was in there and she took one look at the lamb all laid out with its legs up, realized what it was and then looked at the roasting spits, puckered her mouth into a large and larger 'O' then walked out. Pretty funny, but I was like hey where do you think meat comes from? Supermarkets? Maybe she should stick to hummus. Anywaywhen I saw that guy butchering the lamb I was like holy sheet, so this is what gyro is supposed to be about!!

I am with you on the elastic. I rip it out, but the new customs nobody wanted elastic on the ankles so...the other nice thing is these are real roomy, especially in the leg and crotch so no more accidental air conditioning vents when you hit pubu from ma bu.

TTigers- yeah we hold pretty much that Damo contributed the Yi Jin Jing, the Xi Sui Jing but it is also our tradition that he brought in a 5 animal and the Lohan shi ba sho. The whole ball of wax is considered Ch'an- some monks actually refer to the Jing in the chi kungs as sutras and prefer not to call them classics or what have you. You know a lot of the gong fu in Shaolin is also laced with buddhist stuff, like in xiao hong chuan and da hong chuan, tong bei quan- they all have Ch'an in them. And of course all the Lohan stuff. It is always said Hui Ke was a martial artist but his contribution has never been mentioned except in passing. I forget the progression but the Lohan Shi Ba Sho gave rise to a huge cluster of forms, each movement became a form, and then subsets of those forms...

Fu Yu is the monk who I think Yan Ming's ch'an family credits with really developing martial arts in the temple, and his Cao Dong lineage is the one most of the monks are a part of. You still see examples of some of the other families- like Wan Heng. But it is clear that there was always a martial tradition there that was benefitting from exposure and development of a martial tradition that was already existing. Even today many monks come to the temple already with a martial background and we all know the retirement custom monasteries developed or assumed for warriors, officials on the outs, and former rulers. I mean, obviously wars existed in China before Shaolin was founded so it seems silly to even suggest Shaolin was the birthplace of martial arts.

A lot of people make Damo out to be of the kshatriya and thus he is supposed to have had warrior training, yogic influences, etc. I have heard many suggest kalari but really the real importance of the Damo thing is in how it addresses the archetypes needed to create and maintain a transcendental system.

You know a lot of fuss and furor has been raised in recent years especially from the MMAs about the 'mysticism' and gobbledeegook laced through Chinese systems- and it seems like a lot of people want to strip that stuff out and just be nuts and bolts about it. But fighting, and taking life especially, does something to you over time. Or it does something to most people over time. Plenty of ancient warrior societies and cultures recognize this- that's why there is all this mythic structure.

We recently had a really cool experience going down to Annapolis- a professor there was developing a course about warrior culture, and the navy was looking for ways to help it's officers deal with post traumatic stress syndrome.

It was a really fascinating experience to look at how warrior culture developes and what it needs to handle. I think stripping out all of that stuff is not such a good thing- I mean it depends, because it gives you mechanisms to deal with what you might have to do and when you do it, it provides the psyche a roadmap to return rather than get stuck floating in a no man's land. So I like a lot of the Ch'an stuff that is in Shaolin.

It invests something into the practice.

What a tangent.