Wing Chun Kicking

[Andy]

I have come acrossed a supposed "traditional" saying that states that "the art of Wing Chun has only one kick." The Wing Chun that I've practiced definitely has more than one. All of the other styles of Wing Chun that I see have more than one kick. Did this saying come from a "purist"? Is there a meaning to this supposed traditional saying that I'm not catching??? Does anyone have any thoughts on this saying? Please let me hear them.

[Wu Wei Wu]

not sure about the saying.

i have come across the following kicking techniques:-
deng
lgoh
jeet
chang
fooh
chai
tahn
tai
foong
shou

[Kapten Klutz]

I have come acrossed a supposed "traditional" saying that states that "the art of Wing Chun has only one kick."

Even if there is such a Wing Chun why is that more "pure"? It was just as much of an innovation at some point when someone took away a bunch of kicks as it would be to reinclude some later.

[sir-elrik]

can u pls illuminate a bit more the kicks, cause the chinese names dnt say anything to me! where i train they hv show us only two ( a front one and a low kick) can u tell me the rest what are all about

[Nick Forrer]

It may not be that there is only one kick per se

Rather that the concept behind the kick is the same in all instances i.e. moving the foot from one point to another (i.e. from floor to target) in a straight line.

My teacher explains this idea here:

Kicking article (http://www.wongvingtsun.co.uk/vtkicks.htm)

[Andy]

Nick,

Thanks for a constructive and informative response. Anyone else have any thoughts on the matter?

[Liddel]

It may not be that there is only one kick per se

Rather that the concept behind the kick is the same in all instances i.e. moving the foot from one point to another (i.e. from floor to target) in a straight line.


Ive heard of this belief before in the VT world, and its wrong at face value IMO.

I agree with Nicks POV, which gives an insight into why some may wrongly believe this.

In fact VT as im taught - has eight standard kicks - Some kicks are minor variations of others.

This 'single kick' theory is easy to dispell....

Chum Kui - in a universal sence - (meaning from most lineage's ive seen) have two kicks within the form, a side kick and a front kick.... both use a straight line.

If you looked at the Dummy form in books or in person, you would find most VT schools have front kicks side kicks and stamp kicks within the form itself. Mine does and were not the only ones.

The big differences ive noticed between lineages is the touch point of the kicks and body position behind it, some turn almost 90 degrees others no more than 45.... but needless to say for the most part MANY different schools that ive visited and viewed have MORE than just one kick.

Andy - i would say to these, as you put it... "traditional" or "purist" VT people, it seems as though "the Kung Fu is using them, not them using the Kung Fu"
:D

[ChangHFY]

Hi, Andy. Hows everything? I think what they mean by Wing Chun has only one kick. This saying goes past the physical, its more of a concept than actually saying Wing Chun only has a single kick. What it sounds like they are talking about is the Mo Ying Gerk (no shadow kick) Though there are more than one kick they fall under this category. So if you think in this line of thought then to that person there is only one kick. For instance Wan Gerk and Ding Gerk are both considered no shadow kick but physcially they differ. I hope this helps




take care,
zai jian

[Wu Wei Wu]

sir elric, see below re: kicks...

dang - nailing kick
lgoh - wooden leg lift
jeet - stop kick without bending leg (lift as one unit)
chang - push kick fowards
fooh - foot angled, lift leg straight up e.g. to hit opponents elbow
chai - pinning leg, step forwards onto opponents foot/shin
etc etc...

my descriptions are probably a bit off but hopefully you get the idea. i think getting bogged down in technicalities takes away from being a more natural wing chun man. you know... "don't concentrate on the finger..."

[Andy]

Thanks guys. It's nice to have an intelligent discussion and learn a few things in the process. Anyone else have any thoughts on the matter?

[DRleungjan]

Hey there Andy,

I'd have to agree with Nick's post about the kick's. You can actually make a comparison, which is almost parallel, with the hands. In the hands you have the tan sau. From there you get all the other permutations of this hand technique. So it is also with the legs. From the tan geuk (if the term is wrong forgive me) you get all of the other permutations of this starting kick. Again, like Nick said it's all about the concept behind the kick.

A very important tip, if you don't mind, and the idea behind any kick in the system is that a horse (rooted stance) must be kept at all times when kicking for it to pocess effectiveness. The beauty of it all is that the forms themselves will give you clues as to the variations of the kicks in the system if you look carefully. It's tricky as I'm still learning were in the forms these kicks lie.

Just a couple taels from yours trully.

BTW, Nick, that was a very interesting article, thanks for sharing.


DRleungjan :)

[Nick Forrer]

BTW, Nick, that was a very interesting article, thanks for sharing.

Pleasure, glad you found it useful.

[darkwater108]

Just a thought, but perhaps it is more along the line of one of the "songs" in Wing Chun. Although I have not heard of this in reference to a kick, but there is the saying that the Pole only makes one sound and I beleive there is a song that states the Knives only make one cut. It is more of a idea and not to be taken at face value. It is not to say we only have one cutting action with the knives or one hit with the pole, more so we do not do multiple blocks or actions before attempting to attack the opponent. We make one action, one kick one strike. One ring to bind them all, wait sorry wrong topic. :)

Just a thought.

[couch]

Just a thought, but perhaps it is more along the line of one of the "songs" in Wing Chun. Although I have not heard of this in reference to a kick, but there is the saying that the Pole only makes one sound and I beleive there is a song that states the Knives only make one cut. It is more of a idea and not to be taken at face value. It is not to say we only have one cutting action with the knives or one hit with the pole, more so we do not do multiple blocks or actions before attempting to attack the opponent. We make one action, one kick one strike. One ring to bind them all, wait sorry wrong topic. :)

Just a thought.

There's also the one:

The kick never misses - understood by our group as by lifting a leg, you are gambling with your balance and the kick should be a good one!

Just to add,
Kenton

[reneritchie]

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/articles/article_casella01_kicks.html

[IRONMONK]

so where does the power in a kick come from?

[Liddel]

so where does the power in a kick come from?

My kicking power comes from the waist, knee and good old gravity.

Add a little stepping momentum or force borrowed from the opponent and hi ya.... a heavy kick. :D

How many here just kick as you like from any distance, and how many only kick with the hands in contact ?

Im quite curious as the VT im taught strictly teaches to only kick with the hands connected to the opponent ? (although we 'at times' break this rule )

[Mr Punch]

Although not 'Secret', this (http://www.wingchun.com/SecretWingChunLegManeuvers.htm)
article from Augustine Fong's lineage pretty much sums up what I was taught (in a different lineage).

And I'm the same as you Liddel: 'strictly' always kick with three legs, never with one unless you don't feel so strict! :D

[sir-elrik]

i dnt get the side kicks

are side kicks like TKD or like Muay Tuai?

im confused i thought that r just front kicks

[Liddel]

i dnt get the side kicks

are side kicks like TKD or like Muay Tuai?

im confused i thought that r just front kicks

With regard to my VT only - NO the side kicks are not like those of TKD or Muay Tuai.

The foot takes a different path which ISNT round. After all the shortest distance between two points IS a straight line :D

With this 'Path' in mind, the touch point of the foot is different when it meets the target and therefore the force is a little different also.

My Side kick is present in CK following the first two sections with the front kick.

Lok Yiu Lineage FYI.

It seems many Lineages have more than ONE kick, and if mine only had one kick, i would have questioned this long ago. :rolleyes:

[sir-elrik]

Do u hv any pics that can illuminate me (us)

[couch]

so where does the power in a kick come from?

As Liddel pointed out: good old gravity.

Sinking while kicking adds more stability, which equals more power.

Best,
Kenton

[Liddel]

Do u hv any pics that can illuminate me (us)

Well you really need video to see it in motion, pics are rather limited but here is one i found lurking around on the net....

http://www.kungfulife.com/archives/Training.jpg

I prefer this photo because you can see the hands are used correctly (from my POV).

I either kick when my hands are in direct contact with the opponent, ie pull on an arm and kick...borrowing stability and power from thier body... OR

Like in this photo, block a comming action and kick almost simultaneously.

In either senario you have contact with the opponent.

Hope this helps.... anyone else out there got a different spin ? perhaps some pics too ?

[Kapten Klutz]

The foot takes a different path which ISNT round. After all the shortest distance between two points IS a straight line :D

I've got a question about that. Because of the anatomy of our arms and legs it seems to me that sometimes a straight line is curved. Like an orbiting satellite, or hitting a tetherball. It goes as straight as it can but since it's connected to a stationary center it describes an arc. The WC idea of straight lines is a nice idea but should it be taken strictly literally?

[Liddel]

I've got a question about that. Because of the anatomy of our arms and legs it seems to me that sometimes a straight line is curved.

In my mind a straight line cannot be curved, its only one or the other, only the apperance can be both as you mention IMO.



Like an orbiting satellite, or hitting a tetherball. It goes as straight as it can but since it's connected to a stationary center it describes an arc.

They are not straight, These are totally different situations IMO. Why ?

Because a satellite orbits a round object like earth for example and gravity is constent.

With a tetherball, the tether always remains taught, the only way for the ball to take a straight path is for the line to have slack.

Our kick CAN have slack because humans have Kness, which is a hinge, therefore has the ability to travel a straight line. This also applies to our hands because we have elbows.
Your right, the presence of a curve is there but its the knee and elbow that make the path straight and give it the apperance of a curved path. IMO.



The WC idea of straight lines is a nice idea but should it be taken strictly literally?

Yes, the idea governs the actions IMO, however there are times its not the path of least resistance, at which time you may choose to use a round action/path.

The fundemental thing that is present with all styles of kicking is that you launch one weapon (the foot) at one specific chosen target.
These two points are most important to me, what my weapon is, and where is the target.

With this in mind, the path my foot takes (the weapon) from the ground to the target is a straight line... which appears circular to an observer.

But hey my POV may be totally useless because after all we may just have different kicking methods :confused:

This is hard to illustrate without showing :o

What do you think ?

[Kapten Klutz]

If I've understood right, then one of the kicks we train would be an example of what you're describing. It's a straight forward kick to the stomach, and the important thing is that you don't swing from the hip like a guy kicking a field goal, but that you lift the knee first and shoot the foot forward, striking with the heel. The foot itself moves in a straight diagonal line upwards and forwards and the knee takes up the "slack" as you called it.

This is a lot like the centerline punch in terms of mechanics, but upside-down.

Does this sound right?

Anyhow I guess the point of this in WC theory is speed. You prioritize speed since getting there a tenth of a second sooner can make all the difference.

This still leaves a couple of questions open to me. One is the more typical round-kick which we also practice. Striking area is the lower shin and you aim at the side of his leg or the lower ribs area. This is definitely circular and takes more time. I have no idea if this is pure WC or not, but it's a nice kick to know, I like it, and I invest time in improving it.

What I would think is that if it's a bit slower, then you should only use it when your opponent doesn't have anything faster. Basically speed is relative. By the way, since you asked, the way they showed us both of these kicks they can be used before hands are in contact.

Also to go back to tetherballs and stuff, the backfist in lap sau drills seems to me like a tetherball anchored at the elbow. That's the kind of thing I meant where the straightest line available is still curved.

But since you mentioned that someone might also choose a circular approach if it's the path of least resistance then I guess you aren't a straight-line taliban,;) or did I miss your point?

[DRleungjan]

But since you mentioned that someone might also choose a circular approach if it's the path of least resistance then I guess you aren't a straight-line taliban, or did I miss your point?

Hmmm....my views are this. Wing Chun, like Xingyi(sp?) is predominantly linear in its approach. However every art must contain linear and circular to be an effecive art. Within the linear there is always the circular...just not in a visible way. Even when executing a simple technique as a tan sau one doesn't just 'shoot' the tan sau out...right? No. the tan sau comes out in a 'spiral' (for lack of a better term) fashion.

Now to combat the circular one might say that a circle is 'cut through' with a straight line. So how would you combat the linear? Well, use the circle to combat the linear (footworks is a very important component of such). So, like yum and yeung (ying/yang) one must keep a balance of both to make the art work for you. Now, I may be wrong in my limited view but, it is how I see it at my stage of training. Some humble thoughts from yours truly.


DRleungjan :)

[Liddel]

If I've understood right, then one of the kicks we train would be an example of what you're describing. It's a straight forward kick to the stomach, and the important thing is that you don't swing from the hip like a guy kicking a field goal, but that you lift the knee first and shoot the foot forward, striking with the heel. The foot itself moves in a straight diagonal line upwards and forwards and the knee takes up the "slack" as you called it.

With regard to what i was saying, this is almost correct bar two points.
1) The waist is used and adds much power.
2) The knee is where the slack COMES from (think back to the tetherball) making it possible for your foot to travel in a straight line, if the knee was straight the path would have to be round as you described in your previous post, "circling a fixed Center."



This is a lot like the centerline punch in terms of mechanics, but upside-down.

Does this sound right?

I guess you could look at it that way, sure :rolleyes:



This still leaves a couple of questions open to me. One is the more typical round-kick which we also practice. Striking area is the lower shin and you aim at the side of his leg or the lower ribs area. This is definitely circular and takes more time. I have no idea if this is pure WC or not, but it's a nice kick to know, I like it, and I invest time in improving it.

My opinion on this may differ from others. This description is not of a VT kick IMO.
Why ? because from my POV it doesnt stick to MY VT theory.
But dont get me wrong its a useful kick to have and use im only talking about its origin so to speak.



Also to go back to tetherballs and stuff, the backfist in lap sau drills seems to me like a tetherball anchored at the elbow. That's the kind of thing I meant where the straightest line available is still curved.

Again like the kick, my theory still apllies here too. My back fist would take a straight line path from its original position (where ever that may be, in Lop Sao its on the opponents bridge) to the target. The straight line path is defined by my shoulder and elbow.

Heres a test to re itterate my point so you can SEE what i mean.

Sit at a table with a big piece of paper in front of you. (Get one wider than your shoulders.)

On the paper mark two points, one in the middle of the paper at the far west side, one at the far east.

Now, You can turn at the waist but face your chair foward during the test.

Using one hand, try to draw a line from the West side Point you made, to the east point.

If you keep a straight elbow, the line from the west point to the east point will be circular.
(If your posture is bad and you lean foward or back you get a different line altogether.)

If you bend at the elbow you ARE ABLE to draw a straight line between the West point and the East point. (at first or with practice)

Now maybe you get my point, hopefully i described it ok :rolleyes:
This is why in VT we keep the elbows in (amoung other reasons) if your elbow is straight you cant achieve a straight line with any action.

One exception is Garn Sao, many people IMO keep the elbow straight right from the get go, hence the action comes in from the side in a circular motion, not from the center line with the elbow 'becomming' straight.



But since you mentioned that someone might also choose a circular approach if it's the path of least resistance then I guess you aren't a straight-line taliban,;) or did I miss your point?

Yeah mate, i love VT but im not so blinded i dont believe in "A time and a place for anything" :D we have a banana punch for certain senarios. Its a little less than half way between straight and full circle.

If your gunna go round you can still be economic :D

[Keng Geng]

I have come acrossed a supposed "traditional" saying that states that "the art of Wing Chun has only one kick." The Wing Chun that I've practiced definitely has more than one. All of the other styles of Wing Chun that I see have more than one kick. Did this saying come from a "purist"? Is there a meaning to this supposed traditional saying that I'm not catching???

The key is in the word "art". The system of Wing Chun has many kicks, but the "art" of Wing Chun has only one kick.