Define Successful Sifu

[hskwarrior]

I Was Just Thinking.

How Would You Define What Makes A Sifu Successful?

Is It How Well He Does With Having A Large Number Of Students? Or How Much Money He Makes At Gung Fu Teaching? Or Could It Be A Sifu Who Teaches Out Of A Garage, Has A Hand Full Of Students For 15 Years, And His Students Are Of Extra-ordinary Quality?

What Do You Think?

[dainos]

those that stick with him and are good quality makes him a succussful sifu

[DoPi]

I think it has nothing to do with money or how many students, I think it depends on the respect he gets from his students. Most sifus do not care about money its about passing on the art that they were given to them by there sifu.

I think what makes a sifu succesful is if he can find students that are geniunely interested in the art to pass down to future generations. If he can find students that are loyal to stay with him and trust in him to pass the knowledge. I beleive u have to find a sifu that can pass on the knowledge of the art, forms, fighting heigong,culture, and just to make u a better person in general.

I think most sifus will consider themselves succesful if they can find just 1 loyal student who will trust and stay with their sifu.

[hskwarrior]

I agree with that, totally.

in my opinion it's not about how many students, how many schools, or what ever you have, it's all about the quality of students. I'd rather have two really good students, who come every class, train hard. I'd sacrifice that no problem.

[hskwarrior]

do pi,

i agree with that as well. i appreciate my students because they "want" to come and train hard. I lost one who thought gung fu training was about fun and games, but i gained a new one and she is great. she's a little older, but she tries hard, and is very unassuming. but she has a tiger in her at her age, which is so cute.

she wants to train hard with the young guys, and said today she had a group of friends she may bring over to us.

but when we hold class at the parks, many many people stop and like to watch what we do. it's funny because we see we inspire some because we see them imitating what we're doing.

peace.

[David Jamieson]

A successful sifu has preserved his art, maintained it in himself and passed it on to another.

that's about all there is at the core of it.

different than succesful businessman, or gadabout, or porn star, and so on.

[DoPi]

Its funny we have students come and go they think when their joining hey im gonna learn some cool moves, then we train stances, and they dont realize its hard work, so not many come back but u now who are the loyal ones who come back and train hard.

[hskwarrior]

thats what happened with me. My student left our school because he felt he wasn't getting any attention. he said "it's not fun anymore" so he choose to pick another sifu.

that's cool with me, because i only want students who are interested in a little hard work to become pretty decent. This new older woman i was afraid i would push too far, but on her second day she is doing better than my original students. but i told her it won't always be fun, and she agreed to that. she understands it's a little hard work. but i won't work this older woman too hard. but she pushes, she does pad work with determination. for her that's fun. so i lucked out i'd say. she is fun to train with too. she does this little 3 step shuffle before she kicks the pads. lmao.

however, i'm the type of sifu who will always be on you when you are wrong with a technique. i don't let any sloppiness (unless it comes from me) from my students. they look good after one year. can't wait to get them fighting. the'll murdelize the bums.:D

[OutlawMonk]

First and foremost, a successful Sifu can easily be recognized by the quality of his disciples and their tenure. The number of students is not nearly as important as the quality.

His students stay well after they've finished the system
What he says is what he does. He is a man of integrity and his word.
He has a plan for his students.
He supports their curiosity and does not curtail it.
He is not afraid of his art being stolen- in fact, he wants others to have it.
Nothing is held back.
He leads by Example!

[hskwarrior]

the funny thing is, under me as his sifu he gets jumped twice and uses his gung fu to get out of some very serious situations. but recently, he went to a club and got jumped by a couple of big dudes, and supposedly my x-student didn't fair too well since he left me.

go figure.

[Meklorien]

I think it has nothing to do with money or how many students, I think it depends on the respect he gets from his students. Most sifus do not care about money its about passing on the art that they were given to them by there sifu.

I think what makes a sifu succesful is if he can find students that are geniunely interested in the art to pass down to future generations. If he can find students that are loyal to stay with him and trust in him to pass the knowledge. I beleive u have to find a sifu that can pass on the knowledge of the art, forms, fighting heigong,culture, and just to make u a better person in general.

I think most sifus will consider themselves succesful if they can find just 1 loyal student who will trust and stay with their sifu.

This is exactly how I would describe it. Well said.

[Meklorien]

the funny thing is, under me as his sifu he gets jumped twice and uses his gung fu to get out of some very serious situations. but recently, he went to a club and got jumped by a couple of big dudes, and supposedly my x-student didn't fair too well since he left me.

go figure.

I've had students like that. It's easier to blame someone else for their own shortcomings. You're better off letting them go if that's what they want. Frustrating though. I feel for ya.

[Chief Fox]

Several months ago I left my old sifu and started training with my new sifu.

Does this make my old sifu a bad sifu? No, I don't think so. I felt like I got to the end of what he could teach me. Not to say that I mastered everything. Not even close. But I realized that my growth had stopped and he couldn't take me any further.

Keep in mind that we trained in a "blended system". A little bit of this, a little bit of that.
ie: a little bit of northern shaolin, a little bit of hung gar, a little bit of wing chun, a little bit of praying mantis, a little bit of tai chi...

I realized that I needed to focus on one style and that's what I'm doing now.

My old sifu gave me all the basic tools so I can now focus on one style.

My new sifu doesn't focus on the basics at all because he feels confident that I'm solid in that area.

Both, I'd say are good sifu's but their situations are different.

My old sifu is trying to keep his kung fu school afloat while holding down a full time job. So he's concentrating on getting more and more new students.

My new sifu just teaches 4 students in his kitchen a few times a month and leaves us to practice on our own the rest of the time.

Sooooooo, not really sure where I'm going with this.

Gunga, gunga galunga.

[hskwarrior]

Chief Fox,

The one thing you never want to settle with is having "good basics", that way people never want to go back and strengthen them.

You know, after 20+ years and as fas as i'd gotten, I realized that even in the higher levels, you have to have an equal balance of basics at that level. So, what did i do? I went back to all my basics, felt they were alot stronger than when of course i first started. but doing my basics now, i feel the strength already built so far, and feel the room for ever more improvement. The basics is something i will never give up, and is always the first thing during warmups.

However......sometimes a sifu only teaches what he was taught, sometimes that may be limited, in other cases it may be a whole bunch of stuff. If my sifu didn't teach me grappling in the past because it wasn't his fortay, that doesn't mean I would leave my sifu, I would present the things i felt we lacked and would ask how to fill those gaps.

Your contribution to what your old sifu taught would have greatly honored him because you took a step in the direction of evolution which means his school and name will continue a while longer, and hopefully the generation after that would follow in the previous generations footsteps.

but the past is the past. and I hope your new sifu offers you what you need.

peace.

[Chief Fox]

Chief Fox,

The one thing you never want to settle with is having "good basics", that way people never want to go back and strengthen them.

You know, after 20+ years and as fas as i'd gotten, I realized that even in the higher levels, you have to have an equal balance of basics at that level. So, what did i do? I went back to all my basics, felt they were alot stronger than when of course i first started. but doing my basics now, i feel the strength already built so far, and feel the room for ever more improvement. The basics is something i will never give up, and is always the first thing during warmups.

However......sometimes a sifu only teaches what he was taught, sometimes that may be limited, in other cases it may be a whole bunch of stuff. If my sifu didn't teach me grappling in the past because it wasn't his fortay, that doesn't mean I would leave my sifu, I would present the things i felt we lacked and would ask how to fill those gaps.

Your contribution to what your old sifu taught would have greatly honored him because you took a step in the direction of evolution which means his school and name will continue a while longer, and hopefully the generation after that would follow in the previous generations footsteps.

but the past is the past. and I hope your new sifu offers you what you need.

peace.
I 100% agree.

heh, how many times do you hear that on a discussion board?

You're right about the basics, you can never practice them enough. I feel as though my old sifu provided me with the tools to practice those basics for the rest of my life.

Unfortunately, because of the nature of his school and with the demands of his full time job and family, he is not able to provide more advanced instruction on a regular basis. This is one of the reasons why I left.

My new sifu can provide this and more.

I may eventually go back to the old school. I've talked with my old sifu and he has told me that the door is always open.

So a successful sifu to me is: A teacher with a significant amount of well rounded knowledge to hand down, teaches in an effective manor, is a mentor and a good role model. This success can be measured by the quality of their students.

[Meklorien]

Chief Fox just made my point. It's hard for people to understand what it really means to be a gung fu student.

[Chief Fox]

Chief Fox just made my point. It's hard for people to understand what it really means to be a gung fu student.
Can you explain further? How did I make your point?

[Meklorien]

The relationship between student and teacher goes beyond exhausting what you as the student perceive to be the teacher's limitations. Almost always this is not a correct perception. Because you're a student.

I've seen many students take this approach over the years and it is too bad for them that they did. They missed out on a LOT of things they never realized.

My teacher used say something that I eventually grew to understand. "Everyone comes to me wanting something."

Perhaps your former teacher really was limited as you say. However, it is more probable that you hit a plateau in your training and grew impatient. There are plateaus in this type of thing that are very difficult to overcome as they are obstacles that we put their ourselves and are simply unaware of.

I can dig that you went from a sifu who was, as you describe, spread out over family and business, to a sifu who was more one-on-one. You may very well have done the right thing. It is just that I cringe at the thought that you may have done the wrong thing. Especially since you say that your previous sifu was understanding enough to say the "door is always open."

It makes me suspect that your previous sifu is very understanding and this hints at someone who probably knows more than he or she is letting on.

I have gone through this with some of my own students and I know they felt they had reached "my" limit. In truth, I could not progress them because they hadn't shown me yet that they were ready. I was quite sad to see them go and I told them, "the door is open" since they were not leaving in a bad way.

In any case, I guess I kind of feel for your old sifu.

[David Jamieson]

The relationship between student and teacher goes beyond exhausting what you as the student perceive to be the teacher's limitations. Almost always this is not a correct perception. Because you're a student.

limitations aside, assuming a student is an empty void who doesn't know any better is as preposterous as the student making assumptions as well.


I've seen many students take this approach over the years and it is too bad for them that they did. They missed out on a LOT of things they never realized. conversely they may have found something that is better suited to their learning style. So maybe they missed nothing?


My teacher used say something that I eventually grew to understand. "Everyone comes to me wanting something."
If you advertise yourself as offering something, what do you expect?


Perhaps your former teacher really was limited as you say. However, it is more probable that you hit a plateau in your training and grew impatient. There are plateaus in this type of thing that are very difficult to overcome as they are obstacles that we put their ourselves and are simply unaware of. plateaus sure, but lets not forget the law of diminishing returns as well.


I can dig that you went from a sifu who was, as you describe, spread out over family and business, to a sifu who was more one-on-one. You may very well have done the right thing. It is just that I cringe at the thought that you may have done the wrong thing. Especially since you say that your previous sifu was understanding enough to say the "door is always open."
why cringe at the relatively inert choice of someone else you've never met?


It makes me suspect that your previous sifu is very understanding and this hints at someone who probably knows more than he or she is letting on.
a bold assumption that helps to perpetuate a myth that a man is above men because he is a sifu. This is wrong.


I have gone through this with some of my own students and I know they felt they had reached "my" limit. In truth, I could not progress them because they hadn't shown me yet that they were ready. I was quite sad to see them go and I told them, "the door is open" since they were not leaving in a bad way.

In any case, I guess I kind of feel for your old sifu.

You don't even know the man.

The reason I am critical of this type of post is because it is wholly untrue and it is an error to assume that because someone is a sifu they are morally or ethically upstanding or to assume that they have something to give you that you cannot find with another martial arts teacher or even within yourself when intention and purpose is correct.

a sifu is a guide and a teacher, they are not all these things they are portrayed as time and again. Just humans. You either get along with them or you don't, you either trust them or you don't. Too much grey to make assumptions that loyalty and respect should be given carte blanche to someone who is called sifu.

There's plenty of sifu right here on this board that have demonstrated they are egotistical, not forthcoming when called to explain something, huffy when they are shown they may be incorrect etc etc etc.

the magical mystical shaolin sifu / monk who is all the things that inspired some of you into practicing these arts doesn't exist.

If someone is offering to teach something and you want to learn, then yes, be ready to learn, to watch and to listen and when you start getting a fundamental grasp on teh concepts being delivered to you, there should be no problem in asking questions, verifying the worth to yourself etc etc.

afterall, kungfu is going to come to you from your hard work. again the sifu is a guide to a style, maybe a couple. Many sifu, in fact all the sifu I know personally have more than one teacher and didn't stick with their sifu endlessly through time on some kungfu tv journey. :rolleyes:

they move on when they reach their plateau. they look elsewhere for the things they see that their teacher cannot guide them in.

[hskwarrior]

In my case, I took my sifu and stayed with him because he was a well known street fighter, and when he passed down his knowledge you knew it was based off of personal experience.

However, my sifu is of the old, old school, and aside from drilling, sets, dummy, and two man training methods which works but takes longer to get results than adding in more modern methods. We also didn't practice applications much because we put full effort into our techniques and didn't want to hurt our practice partner. but, what i felt my sifu lacked I added into my own curriculum. but i still stay with him. He taught me what i needed to know, and now I'm putting that to use.

I feel when you have a sifu who can give you more personal time is one who shares his good stuff.

hsk

[Chief Fox]

The relationship between student and teacher goes beyond exhausting what you as the student perceive to be the teacher's limitations. Almost always this is not a correct perception. Because you're a student.

I've seen many students take this approach over the years and it is too bad for them that they did. They missed out on a LOT of things they never realized.

My teacher used say something that I eventually grew to understand. "Everyone comes to me wanting something."

Perhaps your former teacher really was limited as you say. However, it is more probable that you hit a plateau in your training and grew impatient. There are plateaus in this type of thing that are very difficult to overcome as they are obstacles that we put their ourselves and are simply unaware of.

I can dig that you went from a sifu who was, as you describe, spread out over family and business, to a sifu who was more one-on-one. You may very well have done the right thing. It is just that I cringe at the thought that you may have done the wrong thing. Especially since you say that your previous sifu was understanding enough to say the "door is always open."

It makes me suspect that your previous sifu is very understanding and this hints at someone who probably knows more than he or she is letting on.

I have gone through this with some of my own students and I know they felt they had reached "my" limit. In truth, I could not progress them because they hadn't shown me yet that they were ready. I was quite sad to see them go and I told them, "the door is open" since they were not leaving in a bad way.

In any case, I guess I kind of feel for your old sifu.

Ahhh, now I see where you'e coming from and I understand.

I don't want to hijack this thread any further on my personal experience so I'll only say this one last thing. Sorry, hsk.

Yes. 100% my old sifu has A LOT more knowledge than I was taught. AND by no means have I mastered all that he taught me. That was actually part of my problem. Over 3 and a half years I learned about 25 forms. We sparred but application training and drilling was few and far between. For example, if I'm doing a form and I don't understand the application of a technique, then why is my sifu pushing me to learn the next form? I began to feel like this a lot. So much so, that it interupted my training. There was plenty of quantity but in my opinion, no quality. So I left. When i say that I wanted more, I mean that I wanted more focus, more quality. Not just another cool form.

Meklorien and HSK, both of you sound like good sifus. You take pride in your kung fu and you want your students to succeed. It also sounds like you guys create relationships with your students. This is not the case with every sifu.

I understand how you "feel for" my old sifu. Believe me, I struggled with the decission for a long time. I still struggle with it sometimes. But I'm also convinced that I did the right thing for my kung fu.

[Meklorien]

[QUOTE=they move on when they reach their plateau. they look elsewhere for the things they see that their teacher cannot guide them in.[/QUOTE]

I have nothing to add or refute to your post. I wish you well.

[Meklorien]

[QUOTE=I struggled with the decission for a long time. I still struggle with it sometimes. But I'm also convinced that I did the right thing for my kung fu.[/QUOTE]

That's kewl. I'm not suggesting you messed up or anything. I just can relate, as you can tell. Good luck with your Path and all. Peace.

[Chief Fox]

That's kewl. I'm not suggesting you messed up or anything. I just can relate, as you can tell. Good luck with your Path and all. Peace.
I'm not taking it like that. This is a good discussion.

The sifu/student relationship has many different levels.

Exp A. On one end you have the strictly business level. I pay you for a service that I percieve as being valuable, you provide the service.

Exp. B. On the other end you have the sifu playing more of a father figure role teaching many lessons, some of which are not martial art related.

Then of course there are unlimited levels in between.

The relationship I had/have with my old sifu was closer to Exp. A. He even refers to his kung fu as his "product". ie. we have a good product that is worth this much.

The relationship I have with my current sifu is closer to Exp. B. I pay him and he says "thank you, I accept all donations".

Two different people, two different styles of teaching. My current sifu's style of teaching suits me better.

[Meklorien]

Kudos to you. A more favorable situation, I would say.

I have seen where commercialized relationships have been a problem for some. They have learned the "get what I want and go" attitude that is very prevalent nowadays.

I'm sure there are more than a few cases wherein it is the appropriate solution, but on the whole it just isn't something I agree with. I have a great respect for those who find a good instructor and stick with him or her for the long haul, through thick and thin. The instructor is indeed a human being and is entitled to have bad days... or even months. Anyways, I'm digressing into the whole schpiel on the relationship again.

Good luck to you.... Peace.

[buddajoe]

Most teachers don’t realize that getting students, maintaining them, and developing them is actually the luck of the draw. Time does not matter. If its money or fame you want it’s quite easy; it’s only a different kind of training. A true teacher can make great changes in a student. Redirect a person’s life though practice, training, moral integrity, and philosophy then you have really been a success. Successful teachers are rare. Remember many styles really don’t need saviors; they have lasted a lot longer than we have been alive.

[hskwarrior]

thank you buddhajoe,

on that i totally agree. Before joining my school, I had a probation officer in 3rd grade, was running around on the streets trying to be my older brother. My sifu often reminds me I was a bad ass kid. always getting into trouble.

but he was more than my sifu, he showed my life the way my own father should have. When I wanted to know more about street life, especially in chinatown, my sifu taught me. When I first learned a thing or two about making minor repairs to your car, my sifu taught me that. I couldn't even change a spark plug, but i could tell you how much a pound would cost, where to get this, or how to hustle, at a young age I could even tell you how to kill someone, but I didn't know to check my oil.

Then one day my sifu promotes me to sifu, and says to me you represent me now, everything you do will reflect on me whether it's good or bad. And of course, i will never intentionally gather negative attention. So, he told me to quit all the thug stuff, and straigthen up. So i tried, but my friends were still gangsters, and dealers.

Since I have my own group of students i have straightened up considerably. I don't need any negative attention on me or my school. So, I can proudly say, i had a sifu who affected my life in a major way.

I hope that i could do the same for my students in the future.

peace, and thanks for all the input. and chief, post away. be my guest.

hsk

[Meklorien]

Most teachers don’t realize that getting students, maintaining them, and developing them is actually the luck of the draw.

Oh so true.


If its money or fame you want it’s quite easy; it’s only a different kind of training.

Not so sure about that.


A true teacher can make great changes in a student. Redirect a person’s life though practice, training, moral integrity, and philosophy then you have really been a success. Successful teachers are rare.

Quite true.


Remember many styles really don’t need saviors; they have lasted a lot longer than we have been alive.

Saviors? The styles are older than you us? Uh, yeah. Um, where did this come from and where were you going with it?

[WinterPalm]

It is hard to find a good teacher...
It is even harder to be a good student...

A good Sifu was/is a good student of their Sifu.

I feel that the Monk fellow on the first page nailed it right on.

To become recognized as a good Sifu many qualities must be present and attributed to this person including high skill level in the art, upstanding morally and ethically (no, this doesn't mean perfect or above human), and a willingness to help others through the art. Some will do this in different capacities than others...

In this discipline, Kung Fu, the Sifu is the top of the game...that is one component of being a master which is the ideal end result (whatever master means). That doesn't make the person better than anyone else or above them, but it does put them in a place of responsibility and one that demands respect.

[David Jamieson]

this may be true in a perfect world...but not this world. you are outlining an ideal that doesn't really exist.

for instance what is the criteria of a good student. I would imagine that would have to fit in with the views of the person who says it.

i would also add that there are a lot of people who make themselves a sifu by virtue of simply teaching whatever it is they teach be they poor at it, mediochre or excellent, with a lineage, no lineage or fabricated lineage to keep up appearances.

demanding respect is not done. respect is given as it is received. two folds of the same cloth. to expect it is to lack in character.

so, in my opinion, sifu is or rather has become a rather superfluous title these days. there aren't any live in schools that you don't pay through the nose to attend, the family ends when the dues don't get paid all too often and if a student stumbles, then a real sifu will pick them up and dust them off and help them not cast them away like an embarassment.

it is a very important title to bestow on someone. It is an incredible responsibility to be one. and there just aren't many 'sifu' in the world.

take a look through these boards and elsewhere, it doesn't take rocket surgery to see what your average sifu is about these days. no offense, but more often tahn not. coach is more than appropriate a term for the better chunk of martial arts teachers.

[Meklorien]

Man, I read WinterPalm's post and I had to agree wholeheartedly. Then I read David's post and he does make a good point about there being few true sifu's around these days.

But this is a different point. The basic point David is that what WinterPalm is describing is NOT in an ideal world. It is in the only world there is. You're right that it is a great responsibility. You're right too that "coach" is a more appropriate term for most of what's going on out there. But I'm with WinterPalm on this one. To the letter....

[Yum Cha]

"Coach is a better term for Sifu these days"

Yea, and?

Sifu is a teacher. If you ascribe "supernatural" characteristics, or envision attaining them with the title, you are sure to be disappointed.

A teacher teaches. The best teacher raises students that are better than they were, keeping the art alive and vibrant for future generations. This is what separates men from animals, the ability to accumulate and pass on knowledge across the generations. Its no different to physics, weaving or medicine.

Fencing masters, gymnastics coaches, football coaches, how many of them number amongst the best on the field in their day? Few indeed. Its no guarantee, but it is relevent. Many masterful martial artists are not, nor are they capable of being masterful teachers.

There are businessmen who make compromises in the product to sell a greater quantity.

There are perfectionists that are crippled by their own standards and incapable of passing on their knowledge.

And, many inbetween, for sure.

A good Sifu is one who can pass on his skill and knowledge by inspiring his students to achieve better than he himself was able to achieve, using whatever tools, techniques and skills he has at his disposal. Ultimately, the cruel measure of success is not his best intentions, but what he leaves behind.

[Meklorien]

Is it me or is this a very good thread. I've read some very good posts here.

[Meklorien]

I'm wondering though why this angle on supernatural powers cropped up. Noone in this thread ever claimed sifu's had any. It's interesting to me how people can misinterpret something based on their own ego and "half-reading" and arrive at a vastly different point than the one being discussed.

Like if you say a sifu should be able to see when someone is ready to advance to the next level. The next guy down the line to read this may rip back with something like, "if you're expecting a sifu to be able to predict the future with supernatural divination skills you're sadly mistaken. The original point had nothing to do with supernatural, but you get a schism in the thread as folks go off on a tangent talking about how chi hurling superhuman sifu's definitely do not exist.

Fascinating....

[Meklorien]

take a look through these boards and elsewhere, it doesn't take rocket surgery to see what your average sifu is about these days.

...and what the heck is rocket surgery???? :)

P.S.: I don't mean to offend anyone in particular - I apologize in advance if I seem to be ranting a bit. Been a long day.

[Songshan]

What makes a shifu a good shifu? Not only does he teach you in the school but is a friend outside of the school as well. :)

[David Jamieson]

"Coach is a better term for Sifu these days"

Yea, and?

Sifu is a teacher. If you ascribe "supernatural" characteristics, or envision attaining them with the title, you are sure to be disappointed.

well here's the rub yum cha.
There are a great deal of people who project these qulities that do not exist onto their kungfu teachers.

There is a recognized practiced of attribution of supernatural powers to the leaders of some organizations.

Look at Rich mooney who used to be on here all the time swearing he could move people with his mind. What happened there? The guy is otherwise a great resource for information on bonafide qigong. Or Peter Young, or yellow bamboo, or coconut guy, or...wel you get my drift, there's a lot of these guys...prolly some girls too.:p


sometimes I swear it is the students who contribute to the rotting of the sifu's mind by being the sycophants they can tend to be. It is a troublesome mess in many respects. Your perspective yum cha is sound and I concur, but I would guess that it is after years of experience that you have come to realize that this way is more true than the other.

It's like when we realize our parents are fallible and doctors aren't necessarily doing things in our best interest and maybe we shouldn't trust that cop so much or that politician. We grow up and we realize that we are all different and more importantly, all the same.

And so, I stand that a sifu is successful if he meets the criteria i described above.
Besides all teh other stuff we've been talking about. I can fuly appreciate a kungfu master for being a kungfu master. But to be successful at being a kungfu master doesn't to me mean having loyal students hanging off your coat for 20 years, if anything, in my perspective that is to have failed because it's like your kid never leaving home, going to college and getting a career, the student is just lingering, afraid to move on, or tied by some mem to the teacher. It' ok to visit, go back, maintain a relationship, etc etc, but to not branch out and to not expand as a student is a failure on both the student and the teachers part. It is stagnation.

[dainos]

on a side note there was some making people better people.
i think a good sifu has to teach morales to go with the kung fu. otherwise when you train students you might just make some pumped up troublemakers that go and start fights.

it also says that in the book
the art of shaolin kung fu
by wong kiew kit "i think its a good book for goal making"

[hskwarrior]

Meklorien,

You're right, this has been a great thread, one without ego's and trolls messing things up. ( i hope i didn't jinx it just now:eek: )

But I would like to thank EVERYONE for their input, and contributions to making this a great thread.

THANK YOU:D

HSK

[David Jamieson]

who makes "you" a better person?

If you step into a school with the intention of becoming a better person, then you will use what is avaiable to you to do so.

I think you make you a better person. The original intent is what drives the path all the way.

Take ownership for both your success and your failure and you will be a better person.

Tel me what morals and ethics are taught in a kungfu class that are not just common social contract common sense anyway?

don't hurt people? of course not, unless they are trying to hurt me.

don't misuse what you know? What defines misuse? hurting others? showing others?

the loyalty things have always been an issue with me. I see it as a two way thread not a one way thing.

everything about a teacher and a student is two way. the student has to accept and the teacher has to accept, without each other, the teacher is not a teacher and teh student is not a student.

first recognize the humanity of each other. then focus on teh task at hand, the rest is trappings that can be applied or not applied depending on the agreed modality of the method between the parties who are engaging in the practice and learning of martial arts.

most sifu are not exactly what I would call buddhist or taoist scholars. Not with any real depth anyway. No offense again, but it's true and while I appreciate paying homage to source of inspiration, propogation of these things are best left to the institutions which nurture them fully as opposed to half understood conveniences used alagorically with kungfu teachings. I take issue with the co-option and redistribution of these things when there hasn't been a full course of study and examiniation and it becomes very fortune cookie stuff that you can't get further into.

morals and ethics are set by the society you live in. If you don't know good from bad by the time you are 6, tehn the problem is that you are psychologically impaired or at worse a psychopath and no amount of lessons will change that.

Confucian wu de is the component of much kungfu schools that causes some apprehension. In the thread with chu a week or so back, he posted some standard confucian rules for the teaching of kungfu. While this thinking is accepeted in some circles, in others it is alien.

for instance, i my society and in my learning, the definition of criminal is based on the definition of law and any criminal is capable of rehabilitation into the norm of society. So, to deny them a method of developing themselves and to know themselves on a level of mental and physical is to contribute to the perpetuation of crime as opposed to using kungfu as a method to correct that trait in a person.

criminals should be taught kungfu. they should do the hard work and they should self examine through the method. It is a much better way to affect change than to stigmatize and reject.

active crazy menaces? ok, you don't want muc to do with them and besides they are lazy minded and too distracted to learn. But a man is who he is today as much as he is who he was 20 years ago. people change, the confucian ideal fails to recognize this in some aspects in the context of the wu de thing. but then, it's a very old way of thinking so it can be excused for some of it's more uptight rants (of which you will find a few in the analects).

This is a good thread, interesting perspectives.

[WinterPalm]

The ideal of one is nothing but an image or a point to live up to. Every religion espouses an ideal that noone can live up to and that everybody strives for. It is what makes us better as human beings. Kung Fu has at its core the ideal of being able to survive any violent encounter, to bring virtue to those around you, and to work pretty darn hard!:) Maybe you'll get cut, maybe you'll lose your temper and mouth off, and maybe you'll slump on the couch and have a beer and a pizza...just because the perfect life isn't happening means you can't have balance and strive... There's a quote that involves the impossibility of a perfectly sterile environment for surgery but that doesn't mean one should conduct surgery in the sewer! ( I botched that one but I hope you guys know it!)

It is sad that there are so many charlatans and false teachers out there, but the good stuff is still around just pretty hard to find and I'm sure it will stay that way.

Success? This is subjective but I would say if you've got students, (Because Sifu means teacher more or less), and they pay their respects, listen to their lessons, and live up to the expectations of the Sifu, then that is success. I'm a student and this is what I try to do and encourage my fellow students to do. Many people cannot handle one pressing these expectations on them, so they don't progress or stagnate or retrogade.

Heck, if I just pay for my lessons, and went to learn from a great pianist and they had me do any number of eccentric or otherwise things that appeared meaningless or inconsequential to the task at hand, and if I really wanted to learn from him/her, than I would do whatever it took barring obvious violations of myself. This is not to say that kung fu has eccentric or pointless attributes, but I'm there to learn, I trust my Sifu and he lays out the path for me to take and I make the decision whether to continue or not. Character development is completely lacking in our society in every facet of social interaction and in fact is probably close to the cause of disintegration of good stand-up citizens. So it makes sense that this would be very difficult for people to deal with.

Success? Maybe having students that carry the traditions on.
It's not hard to be violent...and the balance in our training, which has at its core very violent attributes, is done with promotion of character and personal values. Opinions differ in outlook and worldview, without a doubt, but a good person is a good person is a good person...personally, I would rather promote that than the 'only way to stop violence is violence'...Ghandi used peaceful promotion to end the British occupation of India...and although the truth might contain some military action, the ideal still exists and it is one that we can only hope to live up to. I wouldn't dismiss world peace because it has never happened and is the dream of idealists, but that doesn't mean one child dying less every year is a bad thing...is it?

[David Jamieson]

Kung Fu has at its core the ideal of being able to survive any violent encounter, to bring virtue to those around you, and to work pretty darn hard!

I disagree with this wp. the core of "kungfu" is to examine the self and to determine through the method of hard work what you are and who you are as a human being.

To be hard when it is time to be hard and to know when that time arises. To be soft when the call to be soft is at hand and to recognize it. To be compassionate, to be empathic, to be able to reject aggressiona dnviolence leveld at you or another. To take ownership of all your faults and all yoru blessings and to be a complete and whole human being.

fighting is an aspect of being human, so is reflection, sexuality, hunger, intellect, emotion, mind, the works. We are as human beings born with a carte blanche. We fill taht card with our work and life experience.

Kungfu is about forming a whole person. To be proficient in your chosen skill set but more so to move with intention and to be still with purpose.

Kungfu is something we strive for as individuals. It's not some object that is practiced until one becomes a better combatant.

at the core of kungfu is you. Just you and the method for making you into a more complete person violence and compassion included. There are much quicker ways to be a good fighter. There are much more focused ways to become a fighter than to study kungfu. lol

This in fact is an issue of contention with many who are fighters.

With kungfu, if it is good method you will build the body and the mind. when these are strong, the spirit flourishes. That's the core of kungfu and again it circles back to 'you'.

[dainos]

i really like in fact im going to put a saying from that post in my sig

[Meklorien]

David and WinterPalm are talking about the same thing. Gung fu is about making you a better person. "Hard work over a long time. That's it. Nothing more specific is needed to describe it as this runs antithetic to it.

I have really enjoyed this thread.

[WinterPalm]

...
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...
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[WinterPalm]

Sorry, triple post.

[WinterPalm]

Kung Fu means a lot of things to a lot of people.

To me, and I think this is true as it is a Martial art, you must be proficent in this area. Kung Fu is most definately about being able to defend yourself and properly apply martial techniques. I believe much in the area of character building as I try to stress it often...but if you aren't training to realistically fight or defend yourself than you are not practicing Kung Fu...or martial art more specfically. My first reason for studying was combat and I still focus a great deal in this area but not to the exclusion of meditation, and other components. We need balance but without a doubt, Kung Fu is a martial art and all the practice I participate in reflects this.


Kung Fu has at its core the ideal of being able to survive any violent encounter, to bring virtue to those around you, and to work pretty darn hard!

DJ,
You said all this but in a different way.

Yeah, I'm at the core in my own journey...I put in the hours and defend myself or others, and I try and be nice to others... but the support and guidance of my Sifu and Simo, and the respect and 'travelling partners' of my training brothers (and the sister), make it so much more than just me.

I see my Sifu as being a pretty selfless person, not to the extent of silly self-depreciation, but in generosity, courage, determination, and kindness...One may find themselves in or near the center, but our social value is higher than our own perceived worth.

Success? My Sifu has had to deal with people coming into the school and slandering his name and reputation with lies and deceit and he has dealt with it in a suitable way. He is a martial artist, and, like he says, if you throw stones they are going to get thrown back.

Here is my revised core through deeper contemplation:
1.) Combat preperation via self-defense and fighting ability.
2.) Character development and personal growth.
3.) Humility and sacrifice that come from years of hard work and often seeing that hard work lost on people who never learn...but continuing because you know it is making somebody else's life better.

This is the list that organizes my view of Kung Fu, and where I place priority...heck, if I'm dead from a street fight then I certainly can't go on to help somebody else or further my personal development. Right now I am learning how to teach and share the art...I consider myself more of a drill sargent than a teacher as this area of my Kung Fu is still very crude and basic...but I can still demand another thousand kicks without much of a struggle!...well, maybe a groan or two!

I've been training for only five years with my Sifu and I'm sure his list would look different and I've a lot to learn, but my current satisfaction doesn't come so much with what I'm getting but with what I'm sharing and what my Kung Fu siblings are learning and seeing them grow as I, too, continue to progress.

[Yum Cha]

Hi David,
You are making a lot of good points about the teacher-student relationship, but I ask myself, how is it different to any physical pursuit? Is learning archery any different? Gymnastics? Football? Rugby?

Measuring yourself against a standard and finding your limits? Learning to focus and control your physical entity. It takes me back to the idea that Kung Fu is simply hard training. There is Kung Fu in cooking, lovemaking and most worthwhile pursuits, to my mind.

Morality and ethics, I think are worthwhile, but I don't know that I agree they are part of Kung Fu. I know, spoken like a true Pak Mei disciple....hahaha.

Likewise, friendship, and support. A sifu lifts a student, but when a student leans on a sifu, he should push him off. Sifu is not a crutch. If you cannot stand, you should learn how to stand before you expect to walk or run. Discipline is the virtue taught by Sifu, and self reliance, self belief.

Sifu also has to know when to send a student away.

Metaphorically, Sifu gives you a fishing pole, not fish.
Sifu gives you a map, not a destination.

Also, to my mind, there is a cultural translation that doesn't always come through correctly. Asian cultures rever the seniors, honour the ancestors, respect the elders as a matter of course, across many aspects of society. The Teacher, regardless of the subject, is the recipient of this cultural respect.

Western society does not share all the same characteristics, to the same extent, I think its fair to say.

So, the respect and reverence of a martial arts teacher, ritualised thought it may be, is really simply an eastern cultural vestige carried into the western experience, and not necessarilly taken in the right frame. I think it is a virtuous element, and a good lesson, but not necessarily solely a Kung Fu thing.

[dainos]

i do. lots of good stuff here lots of humblness too

[hskwarrior]

dainos,

your're right. I like this thread because at times, ever so slightly edgey, but all in all, everyone is contributing. and that's great.

I appreciate everyone who came out to post.


thanks

[travelsbyknight]

I think a successful Sifu depends on the individual student. If a student is unhappy and leaves then it could be said that the sifu wasn't good for that student. The same is also true for the opposite situation.

Quality traits:

1. A sifu isn't a coach. He isn't meant to sit there and motivate you to work. That's your job.

2. If a student leaves a school a better person(someone with better kung fu ability) than IMO the sifu has done his job.

3. If a student deems the school curriculum to be missing something then it is up to him to add that into HIS OWN training. Once again, the sifu isn't a personal trainer who changes to your needs.

4. A good sifu holds things back from students until he deems that that student is ready to learn more. Many students are interested in training their own way or learning brand new techniques/drills. What's the point if you haven't shown profficiency in what the sifu has already shown you? You're wasting his time at this point. The main reason a sifu tries to curtail a student's curiosity is because this constant curiosity about other arts will keep him from being sculpted. The student's tea cup isn't empty and he will go on to learn the basics of many arts and never the mastery of any.

I don't have all of the qualities that I just listed. Sometimes I'm a good student and lately I've been a sh!tty one. I could be practicing but instead I'm online ordering crap I can't afford. I've hit a pleatua(not sure if I spelled that right). It would be very easy for me to blame my lack of moving forward on my sifu. Here are the constants of my situation. My sifu has been teaching me the same way for years. The curriculum has changed very little. Why was I into it years ago and not so much now? The answer is within me. I changed. Could somethings in the school be better? Sure. But I put full blame on myself. I've become a better person since the start of my kung fu career so that means my sifu has done his job. I need to start doing mine better.

[dainos]

"crawl before you walk" my sifu
walk before you jog
jog before you sprint
many people want to run after they crawl some people want to sprint after they walked. and some want to sprint after they crawl.

this is a problem for many people im just trying to not be one of those people

[hskwarrior]

that's wild dainos,

I tell my students the exact same thing about the crawl before you walk concept.


tha's cool.

[dainos]

its a very good and common saying.
hehe:D

[travelsbyknight]

A successful sifu is someone who can think of techniques after only seeing one. He shows them on the fly and they're radically different from the others...but the same.

[dainos]

A successful sifu is someone who can think of techniques after only seeing one. He shows them on the fly and they're radically different from the others...but the same.

but first they have to work. they can look good but can they work.
thats just inventiveness anyways its not totally required but it is nice.
my si hing is very inventive

[David Jamieson]

an attentive student can extrapolate more applications out of form than what they are shown.

an inattentive student will have difficulty with the one they are shown.

a successful sifu can see the one who needs the cane across the back, and will lovingly provide it. :P

[travelsbyknight]

There's no way to tell if a sifu's techniques work unless you attack him. You have to trust that his techniques are based off of his personal combat experience. Will they work for you? Nope. YOu have to modify them for your body type/attack situation.

In my opinion, a person who can make techniques up on the fly from principles of the form, is extremely unpredictable in a fight situation. You never know what he's going to do next.


Yes, a good student should be able to extrapolate techniques from forms...but I don't think most people have that ability. It's hard to decipher forms sometimes. I study hung gar. Ever try deciphering those forms? Yeesh! Sometimes I'd rather run ten miles

[Yum Cha]

A successful sifu is someone who can think of techniques after only seeing one. He shows them on the fly and they're radically different from the others...but the same.

I think a good Sifu is one that can train that skill into his students.... Having the skill simply makes you a good student of your art.

[WinterPalm]

There's a guy who posted in the Kung Fu Main Forum and he is saying that he pulls in 200,000$ American from his job teaching Kung Fu...

Maybe this is the definitive answer we are all looking for?:D

[David Jamieson]

successful sifu ad successful businessman while fully combinate in a single person are in and of themselves mutually exclusive.

if money was the measure of a successful sifu, then quality martial arts would have dissappeared long ago in favour of faster moneymaking techniques.

[chasincharpchui]

There's a guy who posted in the Kung Fu Main Forum and he is saying that he pulls in 200,000$ American from his job teaching Kung Fu...

Maybe this is the definitive answer we are all looking for?:D


well those ppl prostitute their style

[Lama Pai Sifu]

chasincharpchui writes:


well those ppl prostitute their style

Are you saying that those who make a good living teaching CMA, are prostituting their styles? Based on what info do you make this claim?

PS I'm a guy who makes over $200K teaching CMA...

And I haven't chimed in on this post until now. I DO NOT think Money has anything to do with being a successful Sifu. I've known a few tricksters who have profited off the ignorance of the public, while not teaching good CMA.

I have enjoyed all the posts here. Some very good stuff about being a good teacher.

[chasincharpchui]

chasincharpchui writes:



Are you saying that those who make a good living teaching CMA, are prostituting their styles?


yes thats wat i said

[Eddie]

Eeeeeggggg! [gasp for air], a quick little maths sum converting your US$ into my currency, revealed that you earn per month – half of what I paid for my house, three times as much as what my car is worth, and probably a little more than what I earn in a whole year. Goodness! :eek: How I wish I was you. You don’t by any chance know where I can get hold of that lucky charm you have that brought you this good fortune? ;)

your single post just gave me a little more hope for the future :cool: . thanks

[Lama Pai Sifu]

chasincharpchui,

Just because you may not know anyone personally who has and teaches good KF AND makes a good living....doesn't mean they don't exist, right?

It's funny though. When people hear that you can make a good-excellent living teaching CMA, usually, their first thought is; "Sell-Out, Watered-down, Crappy-KF, etc." How come knowone says, "Wow, his KF must be good to get soo many people to want to train with him!" "I wonder if his facilities are cleaner and nicer than the crappy schools that try to slander him?" "I wonder if he trains his instructors in a systemized and consistant manner - one that would produce an instructor with good qualities and skills that he can pass on to other students?"

"And I wonder if this guy...actually shows up for work on time? And starts and ends class when it's supposed to? And has a good relationship with the community, and a good reputation?"

I say this as I am poking fun at all the so called "traditional schools" who look down on people who teach CMA and are successful at it. Above, aresome of the reason why most schools are NOT successful. Turns out, that their martial arts isn't the only thing that holds them back.

Not trying to start a flame-war, I wouldn't want to take away Frank McCarthy's job.

And chasincharpchui - I'm not necessarily directing this towards you. I have enjoyed many of your previous posts. Just offering a point of view from this side of the fence.

[David Jamieson]

martial artists who take offense at other martial artists making bank from their goods is just a form of bitter because they lack business acumen, live in a fantasy world of journey to teh west wuxia or shaolin monk in teh temple only kind of crap.

I completely disagree with Chasincharpchui's sentiments and view them as immature and envious .

would you say that to the wah lum master who has done well with his martial arts? Is He a sellout? How about Master Liang? Is he a prostitute? How about wing lam? Is he a prostitute? Are these masters of martial arts protititutes because they are more successful in their kungfu and their business together than you or your teacher? If you were presented with an opportunity (because obviously you aren't the type to "make" the opportunity) to accumulate some wealth through only your martial arts, are you telling me that your stuffy self righteous self wouldn't do it because it is prostituting?

Chasincharpchui, you are talking through your ass hole.

[BoulderDawg]

There's a guy who posted in the Kung Fu Main Forum and he is saying that he pulls in 200,000$ American from his job teaching Kung Fu...

Maybe this is the definitive answer we are all looking for?:D

I think you can make that much managing and owning schools. However teaching?

[chasincharpchui]

not saying you dont teach good kf, my comment was directed at those sifus that charge students a fee wen they wish to be graded, limit the amount of classes a student is allowed to attend per week, hands out black belts to ppl that dont deserve(juss coz theyve paid enuff fees), has training camps that mislead ppl into thinking they can get 6 months worth of training crammed into 1 weekend. force their students to attend a seminar that costs over 1k in order to attend the anniversary dinner of ancestors(you know who u r). and franchising the school

[Chief Fox]

Success can only be defined by the person trying to achieve it.

Any sifu that teaches a student is a success. It really depends on what your personal definition of success is.

Hypothetical: Maybe I have 1 student that I am taking the time to introduce to and train in all of the elements of my style. Does this make me a successful sifu? To me it probably does.

Maybe I own 5 schools and make $200,000 a year. Does this make me a successful sifu. It certainly makes me a successful business man. And it could be argued that the reason I have 5 schools is because I am a successful sifu or maybe it's just good marketing.

The point is, there are no set parameters for success.

I discussed earlier how I left my old school and now train with a new sifu.

I would consider both sifu to be successful. I certainly have learned from both of them. My current sifu just happens to be a better match for me.

So to me, a successful sifu is one whose teachings compliment my learning style. I need things to have a set structure in order for me to learn well and grasp concepts.

Many sifu have more of a free flow teaching style and this works for many people. However, it doesn't work for me.

Just some thoughts.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

chasincharpchui,

I understand what you mean now.

However, I do limit the number of times a student can train and I do have graduation fees. (I could explain the myriad of reason for these practices, but I might develop carpel tunnel syndrome here). Both these items are covered with a prospective student before they enroll. If they don't want to...they obviously don't have to become a student at my schools.

I agree that ripping off/lying to students under any circumstances is unethical. But I think your gripes with people are in the direction of ethics; not to be aimed at Sifu's who are financially successful.

I agree, that there are many unethical degenerates in our industry. Giving people false hopes of what they will achieve, lying about your background or fabricating styles and techniques to students is wrong. Thing is...this behavior is not indigenous to financially successful Sifu.

[chasincharpchui]

chasincharpchui,

I understand what you mean now.

However, I do limit the number of times a student can train and I do have graduation fees. (I could explain the myriad of reason for these practices, but I might develop carpel tunnel syndrome here). Both these items are covered with a prospective student before they enroll. If they don't want to...they obviously don't have to become a student at my schools.



okay i know that rent n insurance is a pain in the a$$, but if a student say pays u $60 a month, shouldnt he be given unlimited access to all the classes you have running available, unless u have classes which are seperate for junior and seniors, that i can understand. he's already paid you his monthly fees, why limit the amount of classes he can attend? your not gonna be losing money on it.

part bout gradings i neva understood. shouldnt the sifu decide wen its time for the student to advance 1 level up or learn something knew, if yes why does the student have to pay a grading fee?

if its the students approaching the sifu,' hey sifu i think im ready to be graded', then i can see the reason for charging a fee from a business POV coz the sifu is actually putting TIME aside to grade you and if u fail, it was a waste of his time, he could have done something else, so pay up a fee for wasting sifus time

juss wanna know the reason behind it

[yutyeesam]

However, I do limit the number of times a student can train and I do have graduation fees. (I could explain the myriad of reason for these practices, but I might develop carpel tunnel syndrome here).

The key reason as I learned is to prevent burnout.

Some folks charge for testing, others build it into the tuition and don't have a separate fee for it. It seems that both ways work.

-123

[CLFNole]

To prevent burnout is the general "excuse" you will get as in that regard it is up to the student to prevent burnout and develop their own training regimement. When I first started I went as much as I wanted. It worked for me as I was single, had time and was really into it. For others that might not work.

I think allowing the student to attend as much as they want is good as long as there is an understanding that you will not learn everytime you come for those who think they will learn a new set in a week.

[yutyeesam]

I think allowing the student to attend as much as they want is good as long as there is an understanding that you will not learned everytime you come for those who think they will learn a new set in a week.

Interesting idea. If a rotating curriculum is in place effectively, then there is pretty much no chance of someone trying to learn more just by coming more (obviously, you can learn a lot by doing lots of repetitions of the same techs, but I mean being shown new techs). Nice!

Although, it's interesting, sometimes some people need things rigorously fixed into their schedule. If they get the feeling they can come to any class because they have that flexibility, sometimes they're not as compelled to fix their schedule around CLF to make it a priority. But, some folks regardless will not make it a priority. So I can see the case for fixed and flexible.

-123

[CLFNole]

123:

More often that not I think you would find a small number coming everyday, generally those who are really into it and most will adapt a schedule of 2-4 times per week. I pay attention to how students come and it usually works out that way.

Of course there will always be exceptions, the person who comes in fresh from watching "Drunken Master" who comes everyday for a month then disappears.

I always try to tell people to come 3-4 times per week to avoid burn out. Telling them this rather than implementing this could be better off for you in the long run as the students will think you are nice by allowing them to come as much as they want but warning them that too much could lead to burn out. Basically you give them a choice while implying the undertone of 3-4 days a week is best.

[David Jamieson]

I've hit walls, got stuck on a plateau, etc etc. Never once have i gotten burnt out, or bored with martial arts practice.

There is also a difference between the law of dimishing returns and burn out. Also, some people need to try it out in order to determine if practice and study is the thing they want to do. As many of us know after some time practicing, it s more likely for people to not stick with it than to stick with it. That's just a standard truism.

1 in 100 will stick with it, 1 in 1000 will get above average with it and 1 in 100,000 will achieve a level of mastery in an art.

I don't know if some of youhave noticed, but there are very few practicing martial artists out there in teh wold. sometimes we forget this because we are in a school or training regularly with others and so we close the rest of the world out while we do this.

reality is, there really aren't that many of us in the world. Which is kind of cool when you think about it.

[Fu-Pow]

If they get the feeling they can come to any class because they have that flexibility, sometimes they're not as compelled to fix their schedule around CLF to make it a priority.
-123


Exactly. It also leads to small classes if you don't have a lot of students. Better not to offer to many choices, 2-3 class options/per week....not "come anyday you like."

At my Taiji school there are only a couple of classes that you can attend a week for a given style that is taught there (chen taiji, yang taiji, bagua, chi gung) The more you attend the more you pay.

I think if you give students too many options, charge too little etc you devalue what you are selling. The key is to make the kung fu accessible in terms of time, money, effort but don't just give it away or the students won't respect you and what you have to teach.

FP

[WinterPalm]

Sorry...the money thing was just a joke...tongue in cheek...my Sifu charges to cover rent and other fees and that's it. He isn't making the big bucks off of what he teaches.
Lama Pai Sifu was the one from the other page that was talking about it. I don't think it has anything to do with degrading the art just that you have found a niche and can work it to your benefit and have the business swavvy and skill set to make money with it.

[CLFNole]

Well then this comes down to what your are looking for. If you want to teach a small group of people just for fun limiting the amount of classes is good.

If you want to teach kung fu and make any kind of money the more options available the more flexible it is for the students. Given the constraints of modern life more options will lookbetter to perspective students since they are not confined to certain times and can make a schedule around their daily schedule.

If you are looking to make a big school more classes will translate into greater income.

[chasincharpchui]

The more you attend the more you pay.

I think if you give students too many options, charge too little etc you devalue what you are selling. The key is to make the kung fu accessible in terms of time, money, effort but don't just give it away or the students won't respect you and what you have to teach.

FP

this is a clear example of wat i was talking bout b4 with lama pai sifu

[Yum Cha]

... don't just give it away or the students won't respect you and what you have to teach.

FP

I'd have to disagree with your conclusions about giving it away. No accomplished kung fu student every gets anything of value for nothing, yet the payment may not be in terms of money. There are some things money can't buy.

Are we still talking about what makes a good Sifu or are we now talking about how to build a successful Martial Arts Business?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Who is to say they are not related?

One might say that the more successful Sifu, is the one who imparts the arts and impacts the life of as many people as possible.

Are you a good sifu if you teach one student? Are you a better one if you teach more?

Fact is, everyone's definition is different. And everyone's definition is correct as well.

I chose to be a better Sifu by affecting the lives of as many students as I possibly can. To do this, I want to build more schools, reach more students and families ect. This is my path. I am not slamming anyone who wants to teach one or two guys in their garage for free, 3 hours a day. It is all good.

As a Sifu, I try to help my students to get what THEY WANT from the martial arts, not only what I think they should have. I guide, I direct, I educate. I share my experience in a way that hopefully, will impact and change their way of thinking. But ultimately, each student recieves a different and unique experience.

To each Sifu their own way...right?

[Yum Cha]

Lama Pie Sifu,
You make a good point. There are as many different sifus as there are students, and without adding adjectives like, Fighting Sifu, Inspiring Sifu, Traditional Sifu, modern Sifu, Community minded Sifu, etc, the term does cover lots of ground.

With respect, a question: Does a Sifu owe alliegence to teaching his art, and ppassing on its essence, or does he owe alliegence to teaching a student what that student wants to learn to maintain his attention and motivation?

Is the objective to keep students, to train fighters (by whatever measure you choose) or to pass on a skill and a style that was passed on to you? Obviously, you can't pass on anything if you can't keep a student though.

We often talk about the death of traditional arts, and in the same breath talk about the rise of the modern 'generic" mixed martial arts. Does this relate to that debate?

I think we can agree for the most part that quality does not EQUAL quantity, but of course there is a relationship in most cases.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Yum Cha,



With respect, a question: Does a Sifu owe alliegence to teaching his art, and ppassing on its essence, or does he owe alliegence to teaching a student what that student wants to learn to maintain his attention and motivation?

I great question; I might have answered it differently a few years ago. Here goes;

"I think a Sifu owes alliegence to the 'truth'. To things that work..today"

"We've got hundreds of different styles."

"We've got styles that were created just because someone else wanted their name on an art."

"We've got styles that have 30-100+ forms, so that Sifu's could make more money from their art. (If you think that people 'sell' their art today, learn a bit about Chinese culture everyone, and realize that the Chinese have been doing it for 200 years.)"

I don't think everthing that we see in TCMA is the 'truth'. I think there is soo much extra BS in there, stuff that if you have A, B and C, you don't need D. Yes, D will work, but what's the point? How many ways and angles and hand positions do I possibly need to poke someone in the eye?

I think each Sifu owes it to himself, his students and his style to respect the foundation, but to build their own building.

For some, it might mean; create new forms, or training methods.

Others, it might mean to add tech from other styles.

For others, it might mean researching the true roots of thier style.

Still others mightshave off some of the 'extra' bells and whistles and create an easier to learn version of an already inflated and puffed up style.

Everyone has got their own gig to do. But, truth be told, in a few more years, we will all see which styles of KF, more specifically which Sifu, are able to survive the rapidly changing tides of todays martial arts movement.


On a side note:

What was worked and was popular in the 70's, isn't popular today. Same thing with 80's and 90's. (I'm talking about MA and the biz of teaching MA here) People get more educated, MMA is now a word that the average person knows. The more Sifu I speak to, the less and less of them are focusing on a million forms. They want their students to be more well rounded and to be versed in different ranges of combat.

TCMA is actually MMA, we all know that. But, most people don't realize, that Forms were like a form of 'currency' for KF Sifu's at one time. Sifu's used forms as a way of retaining students. Student pays $$$ for a form. If the teacher makes up more forms, MORE FORMS = MORE $$$$. People also thought "more forms= more skill....if I learn more forms than this guy, I'll be better than him." We all knew that it wasn't true, but it took guys getting into a ring or a cage to prove it to the rest of the world.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a basher of KF and lover of MMA. I love KF. I'm training in it for over 20 years (26 years of total MA) and will do so for ever. But as it relates to the initial question; As a KF Sifu, we have to discover and take the path of truth, find out what works and pass it on. If certain techniques can wind your students up in jail for using them, don't teach them. If the average person knows how to 'shoot', teach them to defend against it, even through it might not be found in your current forms.

Just some morning Ranting...I'm not even sure if all my thought are coherent, just trying to spill some stuff out. I apologize if I'm a bit all over the place.

Cheers.

[Yum Cha]

Lama Pie Sifu
Great response, "the truth". We all know that what lives in martial arts is what lives in the teachers of today, and that what once lived in the dead is just that, dead. The arts travel with the living, with the man. It appears we agree on that.

And, I can't disagree that there have been martial arts businessmen as long as there have been martial arts teachers, and everything you say about forms being multiplied to multiply tuition is accurate enough to apply to many many situations.

So, back to the essence, the truth. What works today. Truth is pretty elusive.

Well, as we all know, there are many ways to skin a cat. There are many truths. Perhaps we can even call them styles for the sake of the discussion. Broad styles, long arm, short arm, grappling, etc, or more specific styles, like CLF, SPM, Pak Hok, White Crane, Pak Mei, etc, etc...

Each has a bit of the truth within it, and probably a bit of rubbish as well.

So, do you try to teach it all? Take the best from everything in your own personal formula and stand by your own vision and try to make that the best you can. Stand with guys like Bruce Lee? Or fail like so many optimistic talented martial artists that have been forgotten and who's teaching is lost with their passing?

Also, some styles are not compatible. With some techinques, its either/or at the higher level.

Or do you focus on a narrow element (the style you were taught?) and try to better that? Honestly, I'm not up to that task myself, but it is what I aspire to.

The old story from Shaolin goes that the arts became too much for any one man to know, so each monk specialised in certain components and thus the styles were born. Myth or not, it makes a bit of sense.

I think where we will reach an impass is in the concept that more is more, or more is less. Breadth versus depth. I honestly think that breadth is the enemy of depth, and that breadth is the siren that crashes too may promising martial artists on the rocks of disenchantement and de-motivation. The unfullfilled promise.

I'm no Sifu, just an older brother in a non-commercial school. Please indulge my examination of these topics, because this is what I think about a lot these days. After 35 years of martial arts training, as I close in on my 50th birthday, I'm feeling a weight of responsibility. More power to you for doing what you do and following your heart.

Cheers

[dainos]

chasincharpchui,

I understand what you mean now.

However, I do limit the number of times a student can train and I do have graduation fees. (I could explain the myriad of reason for these practices, but I might develop carpel tunnel syndrome here). Both these items are covered with a prospective student before they enroll. If they don't want to...they obviously don't have to become a student at my schools.

.

why would you limit a student how much he can train. if he wants to come everyday that your open. then he should be able by you to come every day that your open. theres absoulty nothing wrong with it. i do it all the time.



not many come as much as i do. if your worreid about him getting hurt by over exercising. just tell him to be smart with his body. if he doesnt do it then who cares. you gave him a warning.

edit: whoops i guess i wasnt done reading through the whole thing i got another page to go through.

[David Jamieson]

The duty of care dictates that you follow the method and reinforce the method with all students in your school.

giving a warning then not caring = no duty of care.

people who train everyday that aren't ready to train everyday risk injury to themselves and are a liability to the method they have had given to them.

progressive learning and building is key. Coming everyday doesn't make a difference really if the method is not designed for that. Nothing worth while can be rushed whether you want to rush it or not. It's not about want, it's about following the method to achieve the best results.

[dainos]

The duty of care dictates that you follow the method and reinforce the method with all students in your school.

giving a warning then not caring = no duty of care.

people who train everyday that aren't ready to train everyday risk injury to themselves and are a liability to the method they have had given to them.

progressive learning and building is key. Coming everyday doesn't make a difference really if the method is not designed for that. Nothing worth while can be rushed whether you want to rush it or not. It's not about want, it's about following the method to achieve the best results.

warning this post is not organized. its a little jumpy

maybe i need to repharse this a little bit

this is for people that "burn themselves out" by doing absoulty excessive execise.
who said anything about rushing? did you see one of my post earlier.

my sifu is not going to baby his students. they are adults they know better, or if they dont their body does. their body will tell them when to stop.
you cared because you gave them a warning. if he ends up hurt because he didnt listen. then he got what i like to call it. he got learned.

if they train everday in a martal art. expect to get hurt. you are in a school of fighting.
how are they a liabilty to the form or the warm up or the drills?

not everybody is a total moron and you dont have to hold their hand

[WinterPalm]

Personally I have found that most people who preach balance are often way off balance...pretty much any and all TCM doctors I have met were overworked and very worn down and near burning out. Rest is essential, but it is the damage we do in our training that makes the rest have value. I feel now that for myself it is pushing my boundaries both physical and mental that creates emotional strength as my personality tries to maintain a level of normalcy while dealing with such stress and pressure that I put on my body. Jumping in way too hard is definately a bad thing, but I know most of us have worked out for too long, too hard, and too often and probably still do. It is just about achieving that balance, or relaxation and calmness that makes TCMA very valuable...meditation and qi gong are imperative to balance for me.

[Fu-Pow]

I'd have to disagree with your conclusions about giving it away. No accomplished kung fu student every gets anything of value for nothing, yet the payment may not be in terms of money. There are some things money can't buy.

Are we still talking about what makes a good Sifu or are we now talking about how to build a successful Martial Arts Business?

In not sure that you read my earlier post where I said:

"I think if you give students too many options, charge too little etc you devalue what you are selling. The key is to make the kung fu accessible in terms of time, money, effort but don't just give it away or the students won't respect you and what you have to teach."

So I'm not just talking about money. I suppose if we equate money with "life energy" which in a very abstract way it is, then the "life energy" put in through training and the "life energy" put in through money are not that different.

But there needs to be some level of sacrifice in terms of time, money and effort on the part of the student or they will not value what they are learning. This is just human nature. We do not value what we can easily obtain.

[Yum Cha]

Fu Pow

Thats sensible.

[chasincharpchui]

In not sure that you read my earlier post where I said:

"I think if you give students too many options, charge too little etc you devalue what you are selling. The key is to make the kung fu accessible in terms of time, money, effort but don't just give it away or the students won't respect you and what you have to teach."

So I'm not just talking about money. I suppose if we equate money with "life energy" which in a very abstract way it is, then the "life energy" put in through training and the "life energy" put in through money are not that different.

But there needs to be some level of sacrifice in terms of time, money and effort on the part of the student or they will not value what they are learning. This is just human nature. We do not value what we can easily obtain.

well it certainly seems like money has got alot to do with how much u teach ur students. it shouldnt even be about money at all. student pays monthly fees and thats it, no extra charges for new technique or new form.

on ur last point, it is true we do not value wat we easliy obtain, but i still dont see the connection where u charge them money for it

you can easily make them work harder for it.

for your information fu pow, my sifu doesnt teach us according to our money contribution.

[Minghequan]

One who genuinely cares for his or her students above all else :)