Jong/Dummy Footwork

[couch]

I have a question regarding movement in the dummy form and would like all yalls input!

Example: First section: left biu, right neck grab, right bong, bong changes to tan sau with step in with a left side palm.

Now, I would like to ask the different families: do you step to the side a little before stepping into the "knee" of the jong with your left tan sau/palm hit?

I have seen different things and would like to compare.

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If you step to the side, why? Aren't you already in range to just step in?

If you don't step to the side, why? Isn't the side stepping, before stepping in an important footwork exercise?
-----

All the best,
Kenton Sefcik

[anerlich]

I step off to the left. IMO both the strike and the kick (we do a kick to the knee with the right foot here) need a little extra room for maximum effectiveness, plus you're also getting off to the side of the imaginary opponent as you're doing the huen sao (my lineage does that in this section rather than the bon).

The bon to tan comes later, in both the first and second sections. With that, if I'm bon/tan 'ing with my left, I'm still taking a small step to the left, and my right foot moves from in front of the dummy leg, to behind, and then back out as I move to kan sao and start small-stepping back the other way.

YMMV.

[Dave P]

We don't see the dummy as a sparring partner or a imaginary opponent. We simply see it as our training equipement! With this in mind not every move is a combat move. After the right Bong Sau and before the Tan Sau/Palm hit we simply reposition ourselfs to approach the dummy from the other angle. (left) The dummy can't move like a normal person would, so we have to adjust ourselfs to the dummy to make the next move. Tan Sau/Palm hit and footwork all at once.

Greetings

Dave

[couch]

Thank you both for sharing your views. Anybody else want to add some of their thoughts?

Best,
Kenton

[Liddel]

The dummy to me is an opponent who is the "action", my dummy form is the "reaction". This is my mindset towards dummy training.

My first action is Sip Sao ( not Biu ) a rising angled Wu Sau, (just FYI) then after the neck pull, when i apply my right Bong Sao to the dummy i DO step towards my left.

Yes im in range for the Bong already, however there are two main reasons I step.

1) Im adding extra power and support by stepping with my bong ( the legs support the hands) and im setting up better support for the changing Bong to tan and palm which also has the support of the legs. The left half step will increase the palms power and support IMO due to the angle towards the center line created by the left step.

2) Im minimising the force from the punch of the imaginary person giving the action (in this case the dummy) with the step.

Our belief is that a persons punch and kick has the most power at full extension.
With this in mind if you use turning and stepping power to stop the comming action just before the full extension you will have to deal (deflect or disperse) with the opponents full power. When training on the dummy its all in our mind of course, because the dummy is a dead peice of wood. :)

Hence we take half steps to minimise incomming power.
This is the THEORY, real fight timing makes it hard to pull off each and every time, hence why we focus on it during training to make it habbit action.

Also with these points in mind, one question was raised in my mind when i learnt the first section.
We turn 45 degrees when we do the neck pull for added power, what we call finished actions, (those with hands and root working together) and it seemed uneconomic (slower) to turn back to the center after the neck pull and then turn once again to the same side to perform the Bong Sao.

So a more econimic way (and the way my SIfu taught me) is to turn with the neck pull as normal, applying full body force, then your applying Bong Sao with a step to compensate for no TURNING with STEPPING power.
We require one or both for every VT action, so your not all arms.:D

I hope this helps you understand our way :)

[anerlich]

We don't see the dummy as a sparring partner or a imaginary opponent. We simply see it as our training equipement!

I see every piece of training equipment I hit as an imaginary opponent. I don't see the dummy as a sparring partner, you can't hit a sparring partner that hard or for anywhere near as long.


With this in mind not every move is a combat move.

I disagree. Other than obvious transitions, every move has combat application, otherwise its inclusion is questionable. However, the sequences of the form often don't represent realistic applications, it's often just done that way to make a flowing set of moves. in some cases the "combinations" presented would get you hammered if you tried to use them against an attacker.

[Liddel]

I see every piece of training equipment I hit as an imaginary opponent.

I agree with ANerlich on this point....


We don't see the dummy as a sparring partner or a imaginary opponent. We simply see it as our training equipement! With this in mind not every move is a combat move.
Dave

This statement interests me and begs the question, what is your main intention with regard to using the dummy ?

If the actions are not "combat moves" what is thier main purpose outside of other aspects of VT training like Gor and Luk Sao ?

Curious :rolleyes:

[Dave P]

This statement interests me and begs the question, what is your main intention with regard to using the dummy ?

If the actions are not "combat moves" what is thier main purpose outside of other aspects of VT training like Gor and Luk Sao ?

Curious :rolleyes:

The dummyform mainly teaches me how to overcome errors and to recover from less favourable positions.

Sometimes in the dummyform I have to choose another position to start from, like I explained in my previous post. This repositioning is not a combat move. I have to move around it. If you literally do this move with a partner, you would be easily attacked. You also must not glue every move or set to each other. You have to see them seperately.

The dummy must not be viewed as an opponent. Sometimes the right arm represents the left arm and the inside represents the outside and the other way around. You have to keep this in mind during training. In that case, the dummy simply cannot be imagined as a person.

Ofcourse when training on the dummy, you have to realise that the moves you are making are combat moves (with exceptions). It learns you how to better fight a 'real' opponent and to instinctively correct yourself and gain a better position. It also teaches you structure, balance and how to loosen up instead of hard blocking.

The dummy is a great and really neccesary TOOL in Ving Tsun training!
You should not wait to long learning the first sets. (somewhere next to learning CK)

[Liddel]

The dummyform mainly teaches me how to overcome errors and to recover from less favourable positions.

At what point in the form are you at a less favorable position ?
In my form im facing the dummy i have a good horse and my hands are in front of my body. Its fair and reasonable or as you put it "favourable" IMO



Sometimes in the dummyform I have to choose another position to start from, like I explained in my previous post. This repositioning is not a combat move. I have to move around it. If you literally do this move with a partner, you would be easily attacked.

I NEVER step around the dummy without the corresponding hand actions applied to the dummy, meaning i never step to be straight on or Reposition as you put it. etc but merely to support the hands actions given.



You also must not glue every move or set to each other. You have to see them seperately.

Yes. we have the same idea here, which also applies to other VT forms.



The dummy must not be viewed as an opponent. Sometimes the right arm represents the left arm and the inside represents the outside and the other way around. You have to keep this in mind during training. In that case, the dummy simply cannot be imagined as a person.

Well the actions i apply Dave can be used on the right or left arms of a real opponent. The fact that im apllying them to a specific side of the dummy in reality doesnt mean thats what im viewing in my mind.

YOU use the Kung Fu remember. Any action can be used either side otherwise you become quite limited IMO.

Each VT action of mine can be applied to either side of the opponent, but when practicing on the dummy we have to choose one side ONLY to perform at a time, and somtimes we perform BOTH sides at a time with respect to some hand actions. i.e Po Pai, Po Sau, Jut Sao etc.



The dummy is a great and really neccesary TOOL in Ving Tsun training!
You should not wait to long learning the first sets. (somewhere next to learning CK)

I agree and happen to fit this criteria, i learnt the first section just before CK, many years ago.

Just to clarify, im hearing you POV and just offering my ideas and approach just so you get an idea of where im comming from.
We have a different approach indeed but thats fine with me :rolleyes:
I find it interesting.

[AmanuJRY]

With this in mind not every move is a combat move.

Poor choice of words, IMHO.

Any move in any martial art is a combat move, regardless of intent as long as it aids (or is designed to aid) in combat.;)

Do you mean defensive (vs. offensive/aggressive) or passive (vs. active)???:confused:

[anerlich]

Sometimes the right arm represents the left arm and the inside represents the outside and the other way around.

Sounds awfully like "imagining it as a person" to me. I agree you have to rather more, er, "imaginative" than seeing it just as the left arm being always, well, the left arm.

Not that often I spar with someone with one leg and a third arm growing out of his navel. Obviously you can't be too literal in your imagination.

[Dave P]

Poor choice of words, IMHO.

Any move in any martial art is a combat move, regardless of intent as long as it aids (or is designed to aid) in combat.;)

Do you mean defensive (vs. offensive/aggressive) or passive (vs. active)???:confused:

I don't think it's a poor choise of words. Probably you don'understand 'our way of thinking' with the wooden dummy. I'm not in combat with my dummy. I'm simply training my techniques. Just like in SLT,CK,BJ. As I told before, techniques are not glued together. They are separate techniques and sometimes I have to change position for the next technique to practice. I have to choose another position to start from. Something I would not do this way with a real opponent. I'm forced to do it this way because the dummy is not able to do it for me.;) This repositioning I would not call a combat move. Traveling to my VT school, isn't a combat move as well. However, I'm on my way to do some fighting techniques...:D




Sounds awfully like "imagining it as a person" to me. I agree you have to rather more, er, "imaginative" than seeing it just as the left arm being always, well, the left arm.

It's a training tool. But you have to 'translate' the techniques on how you would use them on a real person. You're still working with a bunch of wood. The dummy, we don't see as a sparring partner.

If I change my bong into jut sau, a real opponent would probably loose position. The dummy wouldn't. But it learns me how to get my technique right without losing balance or structure. While training it on the dummy, ofcourse I put real effort in it. Later, when doing the same technique on a real person, the structure is also there and it would not easily make me loose position. It would give me the opputunity to easily gain control.


Not that often I spar with someone with one leg and a third arm growing out of his navel.

:D


@Liddel

Thanks for offering me your approach. ( Lok Yiu lineage, right?) If the 'way of thinking' is different, the whole idea of the form is in another perspective. It's good to see and try to understand other people's approach. (Mine is WSLVT) Although it's hard to explain a point of view 'on paper'.


At what point in the form are you at a less favorable position ?

Just to start with the very first one, the neck pulling technique is a recovery technique. You have overdone an attack (somebody would not intentionally attack to the backside of someones head, does he?), so recover back to the center as soon as possible. Not neccesarily a neck pull, but you have to retract and gain back position so you can hit again and again with your main VT weapon,...the punch. It's all about the idea in your head...

greetz

[Matrix]

(somebody would not intentionally attack to the backside of someones head, does he)Why not?:D

[AmanuJRY]

I don't think it's a poor choise of words. Probably you don'understand 'our way of thinking' with the wooden dummy. I'm not in combat with my dummy. I'm simply training my techniques. Just like in SLT,CK,BJ. As I told before, techniques are not glued together. They are separate techniques and sometimes I have to change position for the next technique to practice. I have to choose another position to start from. Something I would not do this way with a real opponent. I'm forced to do it this way because the dummy is not able to do it for me.;) This repositioning I would not call a combat move. Traveling to my VT school, isn't a combat move as well. However, I'm on my way to do some fighting techniques...:D

And you are not familiar with 'my' way of thinking.;)

I understand you don't consider it a 'combat move', what I am stating and what I believe is that even 'passive' movement is part of combat. Now, I know you're saying that it is just to set up for another tech, that's fine...my thinking...why not make that set up movement active, why divide all the tech's in the dummy form up? Why not string them together in a continuous 'attack' mode?

...basically, why limit yourself?

[AmanuJRY]

Now, I would like to ask the different families: do you step to the side a little before stepping into the "knee" of the jong with your left tan sau/palm hit?

If you don't step to the side, why? Isn't the side stepping, before stepping in an important footwork exercise?

I learned to step to the side before stepping in. I was told, and firmly agree with, that it is because the dummy is immoble and you do this to 'get to it's side' - something that 'can' be achieved otherwise (like a lop, kau, or even tan sau) against a live person.

I believe this footwork (as with any footwork tech.) is important. It is what you use against someone with a stronger base to get off his/her line. It is a small tech. that when trained you will use often without even questioning it (if you even notice).

[Matrix]

I having a hard time figuring out what all the fuss is about. The dummy is just a tool to develop your skills, so I would think that it is more important that things are done well. Whether you train with every move as a "combat move" or not, that's something minor, IMO. Having said that, any transitional move must be made with the proper structure.

Personally, I don't play the dummy the same way all the time. Sometimes I focus more on details of moving, distancing and timing, and other times I just let loose.

Taking too hard of a position limits your development in the long run, IMO. For example, I have never tried to step with the bong sau, as Liddel has described. I could scream out, "That's not right!" if I'm hung up on a limited mindset of correctness, or I could try it out ( as I did) and say, "That's cool, I like the different feel.". In fact, I have trained this move many times, just not as part of the dummy form.

If we are intent on presenting our own positions and trying to "enlighten" others as to how correct our POV is, then this forum has no value as a learning tool.

In other words, don't let your thinking be as rigid as the dummy. ;)

[Matrix]

Now, I would like to ask the different families: do you step to the side a little before stepping into the "knee" of the jong with your left tan sau/palm hit?Kenton,
I have a question for you.
What are you being taught to do?

[AmanuJRY]

I having a hard time figuring out what all the fuss is about. The dummy is just a tool to develop your skills, so I would think that it is more important that things are done well. Whether you train with every move as a "combat move" or not, that's something minor, IMO. Having said that, any transitional move must be made with the proper structure.

Personally, I don't play the dummy the same way all the time. Sometimes I focus more on details of moving, distancing and timing, and other times I just let loose.

Taking too hard of a position limits your development in the long run, IMO. For example, I have never tried to step with the bong sau, as Liddel has described. I could scream out, "That's not right!" if I'm hung up on a limited mindset of correctness, or I could try it out ( as I did) and say, "That's cool, I like the different feel.". In fact, I have trained this move many times, just not as part of the dummy form.

If we are intent on presenting our own positions and trying to "enlighten" others as to how correct our POV is, then this forum has no value as a learning tool.

In other words, don't let your thinking be as rigid as the dummy. ;)

I am not trying to use the internet to 'enlighten' others to 'how correct my POV' is...other than my POV on how the internet and disscussion boards in general are full of semantincal error, hearsay and hyperbole, that is.;)

You're correct, IMO, if you meant no serious discussion regarding technique or application can happen without the aid of physical interaction (to include body language and mannerism as well as contact like chi sau).:)

[couch]

Kenton,
I have a question for you.
What are you being taught to do?

Well...not that I agree with this after watching the Moy Yat Jong video, reading about some WSL stepping methods to close the gap and after talking some of you guys:

Just step straight in with the palm-hit. My Sifu has taught me that the step to the side is not necessary because I'm already in range of hitting after I step directly into the knee. He says that it's a wasted motion.

I understand this, but I think that the stepping to the side IS for getting off of the line and when I talk to people about how the enter on the attack, more often than not I hear: use the stepping from the Jong. ...and then I'm always asking...what stepping...I don't have any footwork in my Jong!

I think my Sifu believes that he has streamlined the WC by doing this. Oh well. When in Rome.

I see both sides of it, but that subtle step ingrains getting off of the line and loads the rear leg for more power.

Best,
Kenton

[Matrix]

Just step straight in with the palm-hit. My Sifu has taught me that the step to the side is not necessary because I'm already in range of hitting after I step directly into the knee. He says that it's a wasted motion.Kenton,
The reason I asked the question is because you posed the question with a lineage spin to it. I can tell you that what your sifu has said in this case does not correspond with our family's approach. I'm not saying that makes him wrong per se, but we step out to the side.

The fact that you have no footwork in your jong worries me. It is one of the key elements to the training. Learning how to step in and around and developing a good sense of distance from the target. The dummy does not move! :eek: So you have to.

Check this clip (http://www.sunnytang.com/MVI_0901.AVI)out, then you will know if we step... :D

The problem with "streamling" is that you can remove valuable things if you don't really understand what you're doing.

[couch]

Kenton,
The reason I asked the question is because you posed the question with a lineage spin to it. I can tell you that what your sifu has said in this case does not correspond with our family's approach. I'm not saying that makes him wrong per se, but we step out to the side.

The fact that you have no footwork in your jong worries me. It is one of the key elements to the training. Learning how to step in and around and developing a good sense of distance from the target. The dummy does not move! :eek: So you have to.

Check this clip (http://www.sunnytang.com/MVI_0901.AVI)out, then you will know if we step... :D

The problem with "streamling" is that you can remove valuable things if you don't really understand what you're doing.

I understand your concern and sincerely appreciate it! Some parts of the dummy hava the step (when kicking) and others don't. My Sifu also learnt from his Sifu a sword form without any footwork either (other than shifting from side to side). It makes me wonder at times. Also took out other exercises/drills that I know that Moy Yat/Sunny Tang taught to their students.

I totally get where you're coming from. Another reputable Sifu has come to town, but I really struggle with the idea of leaving my current Sifu. You know? What's more important? My Sifu-relationship or my learning? I've left when things have gotten bad, not when they're good!

Anyways...no need to worry about things for a couple of months at this point (newborn!), but I appreciate everyone sharing!

Best,
Kenton

[Liddel]

My Sifu has taught me that the step to the side is not necessary because I'm already in range of hitting after I step directly into the knee. He says that it's a wasted motion.


First off, i actually step to the side a split second after the bong, (hands bring the legs) then turn to Tan while stepping into the leg of the dummy with the lower palm...... so our order from your post seems different to mine, but anyway.....

One could argue that it is a wasted action :rolleyes: but only if your not looking for added power and support which is the reason WHY i step. Angle plays an important part, which in my head wouldnt be present without stepping :rolleyes:.

I believe the 3 actions (Palm hit, Push, pressure from Tan Sao and my stepping leg into dummy leg) would only serve as a harassment without turning or (in this case) stepping power against a real opponent.

If your not stepping your not applying anything below the waist IMO. However...

With this in mind, we are trying to attain a different goal, (economic vs power and support) so in a way, we are both right in our given context's.



EDIT.... I think that the stepping to the side IS for getting off of the line and when I talk to people about how the enter on the attack, more often than not I hear: use the stepping from the Jong. ...and then I'm always asking...what stepping...I don't have any footwork in my Jong!


Talking about one step in the form (or lack thereof) is one thing, but you dont have much stepping at all :confused:. The step in my form is basically the triangle step that is present in alot of other parts of VT, Bui Jee amoungst others, so there is consistency from my POV. If you find you dont have much stepping i dont know what to say. :o



I think my Sifu believes that he has streamlined the WC by doing this. Oh well. When in Rome.

Streamline could be good but not at another benificial attribute's expenceIMO.



I see both sides of it, but that subtle step ingrains getting off of the line and loads the rear leg for more power.


Good for you thinking for yourself, also try the action with a live partner, the way that fits YOU best will become apparent quite quickly. :D , nothing like a bit of real life testing.

All and all it sounds like a question of priority - To be MORE economic (which is a POV) or to have more Support and Power (alos a POV). :rolleyes:

Which is more important and in which fighting context ? :rolleyes:

[Dave P]

Wow you guys have been very busy the past 19 hours. Too bad I live in a totally different timezone. :(


...my thinking...why not make that set up movement active, why divide all the tech's in the dummy form up? Why not string them together in a continuous 'attack' mode?

...basically, why limit yourself?

The movement can't be active, because we don't use it with a real opponent. We don't string techniques together, because corresponding applications are also not bonded. Although, the dummy form is performed continuously. Let's say in 'action'mode...:)


I learned to step to the side before stepping in. I was told, and firmly agree with, that it is because the dummy is immoble and you do this to 'get to it's side' - something that 'can' be achieved otherwise (like a lop, kau, or even tan sau) against a live person.

Stated this way, our 'way of thinking' doesn't differ that much...:p
You're forced to make a move you wouldn't make against a 'live' person. That's my idea...


Personally, I don't play the dummy the same way all the time. Sometimes I focus more on details of moving, distancing and timing, and other times I just let loose.

Absolutely! You must not become the slave of your form. As you stated: It's a skill development tool! The first 60 or so movements are the most important ones. It's all about structure, timing, details, footwork. You can train the however you like! Great statement Matrix!

For you guys to enjoy, a vid of WSL 'playing' the dummy.
http://www.vingtsunupdate.com/framevt/wongvideo/wongdummydivx.avi

And one of Yip Man
http://closed.vingtsunupdate.com/ymdummy.wmv

Well, now I have to wait for another 10+ hours for you guys to wake up,...:D

[AmanuJRY]

Stated this way, our 'way of thinking' doesn't differ that much...:p
You're forced to make a move you wouldn't make against a 'live' person. That's my idea...

Keep in mind if the 'live person' is much larger or more stable than me, I would have to use the step.;)

(Thankfully, I practice it for such occasion:cool: )

[couch]

Good for you thinking for yourself...

Thankfully, my Sifu DOES recommend that I talk to and meet as many WC people as I can.

Also, if it wasn't for the relationships that I've made over these forums, things wouldn't be so good (or complicated - however you want to look at it!).

Best,
Kenton

[anerlich]

somebody would not intentionally attack to the backside of someones head, does he?

The snapdown from here is a common wrestling attack. I use it regularly and successfully in both grappling and regular sparring situations. Also, if you can garb the back of the guy's neck and hold him *while* hitting him in the face with the other hand (or better yet, elbow), it *will* hurt him a lot more.

So IMO it's much more than just recovery, it's a **** useful attack.

There's arguments both ways, I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right.


If we are intent on presenting our own positions and trying to "enlighten" others as to how correct our POV is

Attempting to enlighten others on this forum requires both enormous arrogance on my part (assuming I have that to offer - Hendrik take note) and an assumption that they are ready to receive (presumptuous perhaps, but more to the point wildly optimistic ;) )

[Meklorien]

In reading this posts I (again) am inclined to agree with Liddell. Also, consider this too: at the opening of the dummy form, the fuk sao behind the neck drags back (elbow back to fist distance) spinning the person around by the neck. Of course the dummy doesn't move so you try it on a partner. Use your fingers at the end of the fuk sao.

[anerlich]

Also, consider this too: at the opening of the dummy form, the fuk sao behind the neck drags back (elbow back to fist distance) spinning the person around by the neck.

Good point. Vids I've seen of Emin Boztepe show this to be an effective tactic for him.

[Matrix]

Also, if you can garb the back of the guy's neck and hold him *while* hitting him in the face with the other hand (or better yet, elbow), it *will* hurt him a lot more.Andrew,
The point of about the elbow is a nice touch that I like. You can grab the back of the neck, keeping your elbow on the opponent's center (chest). It's very useful in controlling their balance and preventing a potential head butt. :cool: