Paqua thumb, out or in ?

[Mojo]

Over the weekend I had a chance to watch the vcd of Liu Jingru, a Cheng Tinghua paqua instructor, perform his Eight Big Palms and Swimming Body Linked Palms.
I noticed that he kept his thumb sticking straight out every time he did a palm.
Doesn't this develope the habit of keeping your thumb out while fighting/sparring and lead to unnecessary thumb injuries ?

[illusionfist]

Thats a characteristic of Cheng and Sun lineage bagua. The focus is on the area known as the tigers mouth. The focus allows the hand to curve a little more, thus helping to open the Lao Gong Xue. Although it's a common characteristic, i have not seen it performed with every palm. I could definitely see how this would interfere in a combat situation, but in Cheng's and Sun's bagua, there are a lot of throws involved. So this has to be taken into consideration as well.

Peace :D

[Braden]

We do ours "out" too. It's to help develop the "dragon palm", which stretches, relaxes, opens, and concaves (well, allows for movement of) the center of the palm; as well as extending the whole body's energy down throughout the arm.

While fighting, the fingers are held "naturally" most of the time, so the thumb is not sticking out very much. The full dragon palm only manifests itself during fighting at the onset, during, and/or at the end of various techniques.

[Mojo]

Thanks for the input guys. I noticed that it did just what you say, Braden. I felt the way it stretched, opened and concaved my palm, when I tried it at home.

[Braden]

There's a bit more to it than just the thumb. Your fingers should all stretch almost as far as they can from one another, and they should also "stretch forward internally." The first finger joint should be straight, the second one bent just a bit, and the third one bent a bit more. And of course, you have to do it without generating tension. ;) There are alot of striking benefits from this kind of palm, including proper structure for finger strikes, slaps, and cupping strikes (ie. to the ears or sides of abdomen). However, it has other very important functions as well. The way it stretches the tendons in your arm makes you significantly less vulnerable to forced grabs or pressure points along the forearm; it also kind of "tricks" your opponents nervous system into holding on longer if he's grabbed you, so you can lead him. But it's also useful for projecting whole body strength out along the arm, much like opening the gua at the armpits/scapula.

[wujidude]

It's also important to remember that, while Yin Fu lineages are "known" for their thumb-to-laogong "ox tongue" palm shape, they also include thumb-out positions for various applications, including grappling, throws and qinna. The Gong Bao Tien lineages from Yin Fu consistently practice the open "thumb-out" palm position. Similarly, the Cheng lineages include closed fist and "piercing palm" applications.

Just a clarification.

[RAF]

Wujidude is pretty much on target regarding our practice from Gong Bao Tian lineage. I train with an open hand but we do use the ox tongue palm sometimes, even in the training. We have a two man exercise where you walk a side way figure 8. When the practitioners meet in the middle, they execute a piercing palm strike (ox tongue) and then continue along the figure 8.

Some of the non circular forms such as combination fist or tight hand (ying shou) have places where the ox tongue palm is employed.