Research in Da Lu

[Victor]

I am doing some research into Da Lu. Most specifically as it correlates to Okinawa Kata Chinto.

I find it an interesting study but it is not formally part of my Tai Chi Chaun lineage.

Does anybody know of a site where I can see an MPEG?

Erle Montague had a nice article on his site, but now that information is available only through purchasing a CD with all of his articles, and I'd prefer not waiting weeks until it can come from Australia.

Thank you for any guidance you can give.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
www.funkydragon.com/bushi (http://www.funkydragon.com/bushi)

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
www.funkydragon.com/bushi (http://www.funkydragon.com/bushi)

[brassmonkey]

How do you figure a karate form is related to
a Tai Chi Chuan training practice? On second thought your on the right track getting Earle's stuff.

[Victor]

How do I figure Tai Chi is related to Karate?

Well I've been practicing Isshinryu Karate for about 27 years and Yang Tai Chi Chain for about 24 years. I have great faith in the martial practice of both arts.

Frankly I could show dozens of parallels, but the case in question is that Da Lu is almost a 100% match for a section of Isshinryu Kata Chinto which is in the Kyan Chotoku lineage of Okinawa Te.

I was using the information on Da Lu I had previously printed out from Erle's site and was hoping to make it avialable for some friends, but he now is selling it as I related.

Chinto kata, IMVHO, has among the strongest links to the Chinese Arts and only when working the Da Lu of Montague did I notice the almost exact correlation.

My instructors Tai Chi did not include the study of Da Lu accompanying push hands training, hence my interest. I'm finding that this demonstrates a new application for that section of Chinto, a valuable insight.

My own studies show me karate and tai chi are simply different manifestations of the way, and I continue to explore as I can.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
www.funkydragon.com/bushi (http://www.funkydragon.com/bushi)

[wujidude]

Victor:

I like the name of your website ("funkydragon").

Sorry I can't help you specifically with your query about possible connections between the Chinto kata and the Da Lu of Yang taijiquan. It could be connection, or it could simply be coincidence.

Okinawan katas have been shown by numerous sources to originate with Chinese martial forms, with additional development (more or less depending on the kata in question) by the Okinawans themselves. Almost all the sources I've read trace Okinawan karate--and kata--back to martial arts forms in Fujian Province, with the favorite "root art" being baihequan (White Crane). While Chenjiagou in Henan Province and Yongnian in Hebei are relatively far away from Fujian/Fukien, it is of course conceivable that there was some cross-over between Yang taijiquan and Fujian martial artists (or Okinawans studying in Fujian). As far as I know, though, the first overt teaching of Yang style taijiquan anywhere close to there was when Yang Chengfu came to Shanghai and Guanzhou province in the 1930s . . . well after the Chinto kata had been developed and was being taught in Okinawa and Japan.

Post more here if you find anything. Thanks.

[Victor]

Thanks for the input.

I believe the Tai Chi Da Lu to Chinto Kata parallel is a coincidence. But only to the extent that Chinto's use of rotation parallels the same in Baguazhang and Tai Chi Chaun.

I doubt there is a Tai Chi to Okinawa trail to follow, but as a modern researcher investigating all levels I can find, anything that works is definately worth following up.

As I can step on the floor and show the nature of Chinto follows the nature of Da Lu, that works for me at this time.

I'm still intersted in seeing if anybody knows of a clip on the net I can review and use for my friends on the same trail.

Thanks,

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
www.funkydragon.com/bushi (http://www.funkydragon.com/bushi)

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
www.funkydragon.com/bushi (http://www.funkydragon.com/bushi)

[origenx]

BTW Vic, I like your opening webpage with the music and scrolling text...nice

[gazza99]

I believe Erle has a tape with many other good training methods, and Da Lu is on one of them..Maybe "training methods Vol 2?" I dont remember, he also teaches da lu in his book "How to fight a grappler and win" This might be a better purchase than the arcticles, the book is published by Paladin.
Gary

[Mr. Nemo]

It says in your profile that you study Yang style tai chi, but da lu isn't part of your lineage? What lineage is it? I thought da lu was part of all Yang styles.

[Victor]

Mr. Nemo,

There is Yang TCC, then there is Yang TCC, then there is Yang TCC and so forth.

My instructor, Ernie Rothrock, taught me the Yang Long Fist TCC 108, single and double pushing hands and Tai Chi Sword many long years ago. Da Lu was not in the curriculum.

My library is over 75 tai chi texts at this point, but outside of reading I had no reason to search out other instruction. I had more than enough to keep me busy for lifetimes. I also have a fast friend in Ernie and he has continued to add great depth to my own studies.

Sure I was interested in Da Lu, but the books I had located were very insufficient on this. Now Erle Montague's article was quite descriptive allowing me to see and enter into the fun of the practice.

Today Laoshi spends most of his time on his Wu Tai Chi Chaun studies under Sheum Leung, and I've been doing my best to learn a bit too over the past few years.

Of course if you're ever in Derry, NH on a Sunday morning feel free to contact me and join in my class. We meet outside on my driveway (for the past 18 years), in all sorts of weather from -20 deg F to +115 deg F, including in snow up to our knees. I've never charged for my instruction and only work with those as dedicated (or crazy) as I am.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
www.funkydragon.com/bushi (http://www.funkydragon.com/bushi)

[brassmonkey]

Ok since noone is biting, I'll take a stab at this one but be forewarned I'm very much a beginner. I was thinking Da Lu was simply the same as push hand except with different postures like split, pull down, elbow but I read in BK Frantzis book "power of internal martial arts" he describes da lu as a moving form of push hands focusing on 45 degree angled steps so I'm not so sure now but regardless its makes little difference. The external movements in Tai Chi as pointed out by Shooter in another post and in an article prominent on cyberkwoon right now can be found in a plethora of other arts, so it wouldnt suprise me if Chinto Kata has these moves but is Chinto Kata a 2 man exercise or is it a form with a catalogue of techniques, if so does it have these same exact moves, does it work on the same principles? The principles if they match would be a real correlation. Tai Chi Chuan is greater then alot of other arts in not the end result but the setup, how you get there. Now if youve been doing Yang style for this long and know what your doing, you should be able to take any few moves out of the long form and put them into push hands practice so if it is simply different moves then press, rollback, push etc. then it should be very easy to simply switch these to pull down split etc. But the purpose of push hands/da lu in my understanding is more so to learn how to yield, stick, follow, listen then raw applications of form movements which are more like compass points. Now I guess the correlation should come with a comparison of the classics and what is in Chinto Kata would be your best bet. Gimme another 6 months of training and ask me again and I may very well have a different answer, good luck.

[Victor]

Hi BrassMonkey,

You write: "I was thinking Da Lu was simply the same as push hand except with different postures like split, pull down, elbow but I read in BK Frantzis book "power of internal martial arts" he describes da lu as a moving form of push hands focusing on 45 degree angled steps "

I feel Frantzis's explaination is correct. The basic da lu is a movement of great power, but the way Da Lu utilizes the angled stepping, shifting from internal to external lines of defense, vastly increases the power of Lu.

You then write: "Chinto Kata ..., if so does it have these same exact moves (as in Da Lu), does it work on the same principles? "

First, Chinto is not a 2 person form, but the section I'm referring to (and I'm not going to try and describe it in words) virtually uses the same techniques as Da Lu. Coincidence, happenstance, serindipity... I really don't know.

Essentially Da Lu has the individual initiating the attack taking 3 steps, the first movement, a step to counter lu and a shoulder strike. The individual intitating the defense side steps as they parry the initilzation movement upwards, and then steps back with the da lu movement and shfting to counter the shoulder strike, then step forward changing sides.

All of these movements are contained in one sequence series of Chinto.

Now Da Lu as expoused by Montague, utilizes a different stepping from the moving push hands that I practice. It is an interesting alternative, more so to my practice with the Chinto interface.

You are correct, in push hands you can respond with a wide range of other Tai Chi responses when your opponent provides the opportunity.

Tai Chi is an incredible wealth of material. For those like myself who follow additional paths it offers additional rewards, too.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
www.funkydragon.com/bushi (http://www.funkydragon.com/bushi)