Worth Pondering...

[mantis108]

Found this clip from a HK forum

The Match... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90guNZ_QhjU)

It's a Mainland Chinese Wing Chun guy Vs professional Muay Thai guy. Now please this is not who or what is better kind of post. This is for taking the lesson that this clip has provided us.

The pre-fight intro is rather entertaining. Both fighter did their "form". Personally, I favored the Thai fighter's form more so than the Wing Chun guys. They both look pretty good though. Once the fight started, it got me thinking...

1) The Thai guy seemed to be playing his opponent especially after absorbing the first couple of hits from the Chinese guy. The lady commentator was so inexperience that she thought the Chinese guy was actually having the advantage based on the fact that he seemed to have been landing some punches. But she pretty much ignored the fact that the punches weren't heavy blows and no major damage is registered (may got the Chinese guy some points though). The male commentor, who has exposure to Muay Thai, tried to be polite about her assumptions and did a good job on calling the fight as it is.

2) The Chinese guy's structure is so reminiscent of the Chan Vs Wu 50 some years ago. I am starting to wonder if that's what "traditional" structure has become "fixed"? At time, he seems not knowing what to do or what target should he been focusing on. :eek:

3) The Thai guy has some awesome combo (ie clinch and knee follow up with shin kick to the thigh, turning elbow, elbow to head and then high kick to head, etc...) He also realizes that he opponent isn't used to punishment. So he played with he even more by letting the hands dangling at the side.

4) The Chinese guy does have his "moment" (ie the straight and forceful jab that knocked the Thai guy down). He got in couple of time and put head locks on plus attempted to throw the Thai guy. It's not a total success but it did "wake" the Thai guy up.

5) It's kind of sad to see the Chinese guy became "gun shy" after he got punnished by the knees and shin kicks earlier on. So much so that it disrupted his footwork pattern and the timing to launch an offensive.

6) The match stop just as some blood was spilled... now how does this do to help keeping things real? What happen to the street tough traditional mind set?

I know there's really not thing new about this type of matches but seeing this kind of result over and over again; it just makes you wonder when would "traditional" guys wake up and smell the coffee?! :(

It is hard to watch especially when we are fans of traditional styles. There are positive steps (ie impact training, hitting bags, etc...) that can be taken to better prepare traditional styles for the ring. Why won't people prepare themselves properly for a fight? :confused: I think over confidence in traditional arts blindsided many. This is one of those cases unfortunately. :(

Mantis108

[Shaolinlueb]

i would say the wing chun guy needs to spar more and train better. probably does a lot of those repetative drills. but also looking at his form, were those suppossed to be sidekicks those first 2 kicks?

wc guy needs to trian better.
mt guy = trains against fighting a lot more.

but also there is the thing, with traditional, the curriculum invovles about 10 times more stuff then the mt curriculum so its gonna take more dedication from the wc guy. but then agian the wc guy should have a good solid base of bas fighting and sue a lot of those in the match. the mt guy does nothing fancy on him.

[Ao Qin]

Hi Mantis 108,

I often wonder about this...and maybe I'm living in a bubble too.

However, my training in TCMA saved me many a beating in my younger days (evasive movement / holding my own ground against various hoodlums, giving me the confidence to confront bullies, etc.).

In my older years working with often violent / intoxicated teenagers & angry parents, it has also saved me from injury, and given me the ability to control and de-escalate some very nasty incidents non-violently. Heightened awareness, evasive movement, swift reflexes, knowledge of anatomy - their limitations and my own, pain & stress tolerance, patience and calmness in times of extreme stress and violence, an ability to "detach" personally from these situations and reconnect with the antagonist after the violent episode, the ability to protect those weaker than me in such situations, etc. - all of this must count for something!!!

Obviously, I would get killed if I fought a professional fighter. I don't have any hunger / desire to hurt other people or get hurt myself as I have a family / career to look after. Anyway, my point is that traditional training (under a good teacher) is still, and always will be, a great way to spend one's time - and still applicable in the "real world". Traditional KF guys work hundreds of techniques - professional fighters hone only a few to perfection. But, I can't break a kids shin with a roundhouse kick, or "choke him out" without losing my job...

la - aq

[David Jamieson]

well, these things teach us. he certainly stepped up. if his method was antiquated, it won't be anymore.

[neilhytholt]

Yeah, well, ??? a couple of kids boxing. Kindof boring if you ask me.

But better than that famous Macao clip of Tai Chi vs. White Crane or whatever.

[Hieronim]

wow I havent seen the vid yet but form the beginning of the movie it looks so impressive that it looks like a form youd see in an actual kung fu movie and with the air sound effects and all.

[B-Rad]

Am I the only one who didn't think the Wing Chun guy's form was that great? While form is only one part of CMA and is sometimes hard to judge a person's skill from, I thought the defecencies he showed in his form really showed through in the fight. His punching looked weak and stiff (all arms... didn't apear to be putting his body into it), and the kicks were just worthless, especially the side kick. Muay Thai guy was clearly the superior athlete, but I was surprised he allowed the WC guy to stick around and knock him down. I imagine he's not considered the greatest MT fighter around either... It's cool that WC guy got in the ring, hopefully the fight helped him improve down the road.

I agree with neil, defenitely better than the Macau clip.

[SevenStar]

well, these things teach us. he certainly stepped up. if his method was antiquated, it won't be anymore.


possibly... many people are reluctant to change.

[SevenStar]

Traditional KF guys work hundreds of techniques - professional fighters hone only a few to perfection. But, I can't break a kids shin with a roundhouse kick, or "choke him out" without losing my job...

la - aq

And that while being a big benefit, may also be the biggest hinderance when it comes to fighting. You work so much other stuff that it takes longer to become proficient in it all. Naturally, you don't have to break a shin with your kick. Heck, on my job we're not allowed to strike unless the situation is extreme, but the thai clinching sure comes in handy...

[Pork Chop]

From the video it's pretty obvious it's a tournament, so the Thai guy probably had the presence of mind to know that he was going to have to fight later in the evening.

I doubt he was looking to steam roll the guy out the gate- Thais usually start fights very slowly almost playing the first round, and there's a point at the beginning where he's watching the WC guy's twitchy footwork seems like he's trying to figure out what's up with him.

The "knockdown" was no knockdown. The WC guy happened upon a decent counter for a skip knee- ie push them off balance when they throw it. It's also kinda easy to do in the clinch if you're the smaller guy- just push on his hips when you think he's gonna throw a knee (make sure to keep your head out the way).

I loved the little health meters at the bottom. I got the indication that they thought the Thai dude was hurt at certain points- but you don't hold your hands that low if you think the guy can hurt you. As soon as the thai starts to step up the intensity, up came the hands.

Props to the Wing Chun guy for stepping up. It was a bit of a mismatch coz i swear that Thai's probably got 80+ fights, so I hope the guy keeps at it.

[David Jamieson]

possibly... many people are reluctant to change.

perhaps so, but often it is eventslike this in our lives that force change.
to hang onto that which has been shown to be ineffective is futile.
Change is forced upon the guy, he can do it, or he can stagnate...

[neilhytholt]

You know, Mantis 108, most TMA people do not really train to fight.

I've gone to a lot of schools over the past 6 months or so (I stopped a few weeks ago), and these people are doing their techniques with no reality, no mind to the fact that they might actually use it some day.

Being a forms queen does not prepare you for the ring. That's the bottom line.

[mantis108]

First and foremost, I would like to thank you all for the inputs and treating this thread as it intended. :) I will try to address all your inputs. If I missed some of them, it's not that I ignore you. It's properly I don't have much to add.

Ok first I would like to start with my dear friend's Ao Qin's post


Hi Mantis 108,

I often wonder about this...and maybe I'm living in a bubble too.

If you do wonder, then you are not totally living in a bubble, my friend. Having the awareness in the evolution of MA is a vital key to keep your training alive IMHO.


However, my training in TCMA saved me many a beating in my younger days (evasive movement / holding my own ground against various hoodlums, giving me the confidence to confront bullies, etc.).

That's geat and more power to you. :) It's not my intention to take away the positive aspects of TCMA. Building confidence and self esteem is primal (pun intended) for any MA. But it must not be confused with self validation and self centeredness. I am not saying that you are but in a general term in what's happening with TCMA.


In my older years working with often violent / intoxicated teenagers & angry parents, it has also saved me from injury, and given me the ability to control and de-escalate some very nasty incidents non-violently. Heightened awareness, evasive movement, swift reflexes, knowledge of anatomy - their limitations and my own, pain & stress tolerance, patience and calmness in times of extreme stress and violence, an ability to "detach" personally from these situations and reconnect with the antagonist after the violent episode, the ability to protect those weaker than me in such situations, etc. - all of this must count for something!!!

I congratulate you. You have a good teacher and a good heart. This is a good example of legit TCMA at work with self defense and self preservation. Yes, it does account for something greater than having great fighting ability.


Obviously, I would get killed if I fought a professional fighter. I don't have any hunger / desire to hurt other people or get hurt myself as I have a family / career to look after. Anyway, my point is that traditional training (under a good teacher) is still, and always will be, a great way to spend one's time - and still applicable in the "real world". Traditional KF guys work hundreds of techniques - professional fighters hone only a few to perfection. But, I can't break a kids shin with a roundhouse kick, or "choke him out" without losing my job...

I hear you and you do have a good point. However, we can see a good example from the clip that TCMA in general could come into trouble under a certain situation. Now how does that to do the self confidence and self esteem of general practitioners? Are we asking them to take a leap of faith? Are we selling them a bill of sale that is about 66.66666% good? Why aren't we working towards give them the 100%- 120% value?

We tend to think that TCMA is ocean deep, which I for one agreed whole heartedly. But then when the sharks come, I also realize that TCMA can be like a hermet crab living mostly along the beaches and the shoreline thinking it is living in and presiding over the ocean already. Well the beach and the sallow waters of the shoreline are no doubt part of the marine eccology, but the degree of depth is relatively sallow. What's more it has 2 shells (one of tradition and one of the self) to shred in order to grow. Even then it is merely crawling on the ocean floor rather than swimming in the ocean. That's why is more than likely that the hermet carb in thinking it could out swim the sharks would be drawn while swimming in the current that brought the sharks.

I believe that if we are serious about TCMA, we must be able to face the challenge that the ocean brings. Personally, I don't believe that TCMA techniques, tactics and strategies would need to take a back seat when facing martial sports situation. Many of the MMA figthers don't have the so called othordox structure (ie boxing, wrestling, MT, BJJ, Judo, etc..) but they still do pretty good in the ring. We also know that even the legendary Royce Graice could be beaten by his own strategy when he hits a plateau and stop evolving. So there is nothing really to stop Kung Fu form presenting some legitimate games in the ring and in reality. I for one believes that Lung Ying and Bak Mei like Mantis has a lot to offer when it comes to "friendly" matches. It's all in the training - proper conditioning, right mindset, and realistic and relevant experiences.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[mantis108]

You know, Mantis 108, most TMA people do not really train to fight.

I've gone to a lot of schools over the past 6 months or so (I stopped a few weeks ago), and these people are doing their techniques with no reality, no mind to the fact that they might actually use it some day.

Being a forms queen does not prepare you for the ring. That's the bottom line.

I hear you. I would like to share something with you and others here since we are on the subject of application.

Here's a clip that I ask my friend (Mantid1) to posted it on youtube.com on my behalf.

little four hands applications (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG2dB14z1L0)

It is a piece of a mantis form called little four hands. Also my comments on it as followed:


Hi Mantid1 and All,
Thank you very much for posting the clip. We just pretty much just hung up on the phone and you have delivered as requested. You Da Man, my friend. Also you gave a pretty good synopsis of the clip.

The clip is my rendition of the little Four Hands applications. The right Quan Chui (round house) is followed by You Cai Zuo Ge Zhou (right pluck left Knocking Elbow) which doesn't happen in the form but can serve as a change. This move is still pretty traditional approach of Mantis. The arm bar takedown is a common Chin Na and Ju Jitsu move which doesn't necessarily have to follow the mantis move. It could be done right after the Quan Chui that the opponent dodged. As seen in the clip there is always a counter to a counter. You have a choice of whether you want to take it there or not. Of course, there will always be more ways to stop (ie apply direct pressure on the elbow joint, elbow to the head, etc...) the opponent to use leg hook to get base and save the arm from the arm bar and/or wrist lock. It is obvisous that I am not trying to maim my demo partner here. This is just to give an idea that traditional mantis don't have to take a backseat to modern paradigm that include ground grappling if you so chose to incorporate that in your training.

I hope to see others sharing there apps as well.

Warm regards

Robert (Mantis108)

Now, I saw another clip of standing arm bar in a MMA type of match posted by another forum member here.

standing arm bar (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_718dOW09k)

We can clearly see that the same technique can be done safely and/or dangerously. The elements are really presented in Kung Fu, Ju Jitsu, wrestling and MMA albiet the training focus are different. BTW, this clips is a good example why an overhook is never a good idea in wrestling and one should pommel for underhooks. You can see and almost hear the popping of the elbow during the ring match. That's a matter of intensity. Again that's what the training focus is about.

I do agree that many TCMA schools these days aren't that interested in intensifying their training but there are "minority" schools other out there too.

Regards

Mantis108

[WanderingMonk]

possibly... many people are reluctant to change.

You got the correct.

This is a clip of a student of a guy with the handle "wing chun wise man" vs ex-pro mt fighter. Mr. wise man used this clip to validate the effectiveness of his material. so, I'll let you guess what is the framework of his mindset.

[Hieronim]

you cant use wing chun with regular boxing gloves though. I cant begin to imagine what that is soppose dto look like. most of wing chun blocks are with the forehand or knife edge part of hand and such that the glove covers. also they have palm strikes and chain punches which dont work with big gloves or do any damage.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Everyone holds on to the old so dearly that they won't embrace the new. People learn as time goes on...why hold on to the old way that has been proven wrong time and time again, when you can learn something new that works a lot better?

Are you still running windows 98 because it's "traditional?"

[CaptinPickAxe]

you cant use wing chun with regular boxing gloves though. I cant begin to imagine what that is soppose dto look like. most of wing chun blocks are with the forehand or knife edge part of hand and such that the glove covers. also they have palm strikes and chain punches which dont work with big gloves or do any damage.


what a ball of monkey crap. That's the biggest cop out I've hear ever! Granted that man did have a stroke of timing every now and then, he had absolutely no punching power due to improper punching mechanics. Timing can be completely key, but with nothing behind those punches, you might as well be blowing in his ear and whispering sweet nothings into them....LOVE TAPS! WC are in the false mindstate that if your opponent stays still long enough for you to land 93 of your fastest, weakest punches then you'll knock him out. I've touched gloves with some strictly WC guys and for the most part wasn't impressed.

However, My sifu crosstrained Shuai Chiao with a smidgen of WC elements, and he could pound me. Thing is he used Shuai Chiao and a bastar d style of boxing to own me daily. He never once plopped down into a knock-kneed stance and tried to knock me out with the wind from his machine gun punches.

[Banjos_dad]

Where was the wing chun, apart from the preliminary puffery (including the somewhat strained looking head-level(????) kicks in the wing chun form)...?

i have seen karate students looking more "wing chun" than that guy in the blue trunks does. He looks more like the guy at the county fair trying to win $200 for staying in the ring with the real boxer for a full round.

There has to be video of a more representative match somewhere. where the TCMAer is seasoned and calm. With this guy in the blue you can almost smell the anxiety coming off of him.

thanks though to mantis 108 for something new to look at...