Ninjutsu vs. Internal arts

[Eight Diagram Boxer]

I practice xingyi and bagua, and one of my friends studies Ninjutsu. He lives pretty far from me now, though, so we haven't been able to compare arts much. Does anyone have any experience with ninjutsu or sparred against a ninjutsu stylist? I'm just wondering how the two styles compare, since I know very little about the art. Is it useless? effective? any opinions? thanks

Knowing others is wisdom, Knowing the self is enlightenment- Lao Tzu

[Fu-Pow]

Yeah...I know alot about it....I was a ninja once about 13 years ago....that is.... until my 11th birthday when I realized I wasn't. Kiaaaayaahhhh!!!!

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Wongsifu]

erm go to ashida kims website this kind of describes the majority of pyjama wearing dudes. Besides youre a serious person practising hsing yi and all how can you associate with people like that... lol just kidding.

I AM THE OFFICIAL KUNG FU TROLL FROM NOW UNTIL I GET BANNED AHAHAHAHHA...MWAHAHAHAHAH.HEHEHEHE <insert evil laugh here>

[Kaitain(UK)]

August 24th-27th I'm meeting up with a friend who trains non-mystic Ninjutsu (however the hell you spell it)

He's only been training 2 years but we used to train together about 10 years ago

The stuff he trains sounds good - nothing unreasonable sounding

I'll let you know

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[wu_de36]

does he call it ninjutsu or bujinkan?

That's the real deal as far as ninja stuff goes. it got a bad rap in the 80s what with Michael Dudikoff passing bad MA as ninjutsu.

If he can trace his lineage through to Masaaki Hatsumi, who has forgotten more about martial arts than I'll ever know, he's probably at a credible school.

I know nothing about the internal aspects though, except that they exist.

[TaoBoxer]

I had a friend here in San Antonio who was stationed at Yakota AFB in Tokyo. He studied ninjitsu under a very high ranked american who was a former marine captain. He had gotten out of the military, married a japanese woman and just did Bu all day long. I thought the stories of them working out on basketball courts doing rolls, falls, throws, takedowns, etc was a joke till the first time we trained together. How long would you have lasted learning ukemi for the first time on a basketball court?

Tim was an excellent guy, a great martial artist and had no room for BS. Everything he did was full on. He told me that he had met Hatsumi Sensei at their yearly seminars in japan and that he was a superilative martial artist.

As for a Hsing I connection....Bujinkan Ninjitsu does has a 5 element system in it, it is a little different from the chinese version. They use the same method as the Book of 5 Rings (metal, water, earth fire and void?) and I don't think they have any kind of strengthening or destructive cycle. Fighting wise I notcied some similarities. Their stances tend to be high and tight, and they seeks to destroy their opponent with a maximum efficiency. Hope that helps...

Bill

[Eight Diagram Boxer]

I guess we're all biased here, but what's the more effective art? Probably either could be depending on the individual I'm sure..
He definitely said ninjutsu though, not bujinkan. Here's the website to his school: http://geocities.com/jays3299/toshindomain.html

[wu_de36]

hmmm, nothing about the studio instructor, just some info from Hatsumi-sensei and Takamatsu-sensei.

As a general rule, when I see people wearing camo-ANYTHING in the dojo, I run the other direction. I could be wrong, and I'd have to meet the guy.

I'll reserve judgement until later:)

[Kevin Wallbridge]

While it always possible to meet a great and inspiring practitioner of any style, I'd not expect much from anyone who practices a technique based style. I've never touched a person who trains techniques who could match the connection power of the internals. Stick them with Beng-jin, find their core with spiral-jin, and then do one of the big five: strike, kick, Chin-na, throw or simply Fajing. If they do manage a change after you touch how can they hide without Song? When the first technique fails the second attempt usually just makes it worse for them.

However, just because they are doing techniques doesn't mean they aren't subtle, I just don't expect it.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[Eight Diagram Boxer]

That's what I'm womdering about. It seems like ninjutsu (at least what I know of what my friend is learning) trains you for certain situations, like if you're sitting at a bar and someone grabs your arm- what do you do? Or if someone throws a left jab- what do you do? The way I, and I'm sure most people here in the internal and external arts learn and train is to make your body and forms strong, then learn applications and techniques. It doesn't seem like ninjutsu teaches for general power and body strengthening as much as specific techniques.

[bustr]

It seems like I read somewhere that To****sugu Takamatsu studied BaGua and XingYi while living in China.

[honorisc]

"It doesn't seem like ninjutsu teaches for general power and body strengthening as much as specific techniques. "

If you're talking about the chair stuff. That has been done for demonstrations to show people this stuff is useful in everyday life--to get more students.

Ninjitsu is a name for a whole bunch of individual Arts~/Skills. You seem to wonder how your friend will fight. It should be direct. He should be able to tell when you begin your attack and when your attack is over. He should stretch you out, and off balance you. He should get in close (hip to hip) and attempt to take you down or throw you. He should twist your joints and the first strikes are distractions so don't look there. If your friend is reading this expect this to be wrong and first strikes will matter.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[kungfu cowboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As a general rule, when I see people wearing camo-ANYTHING in the dojo, I run the other direction [/quote]


A VERY good rule of thumb, LOL!! :D

Barry Manilow ain't no vegetable.

[Kristoffer]

"ninjUtsu",, = crap.
Bujinkan taijutsu (something like that) = good.

Not putting that school from the link down, it's just that I would never train there myself. they looked like they missed something, like balance?

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

[Jay Bell]

Takamatsu sensei studied Bagua Zhang while he lived in China (amoung the big three). Later in life, he commented to Hatsumi sensei about this when asked...

"Raw violence wins over internal work every time."

His ideas on the matter was that playing against the opponent's instinctual reactions and playing with their head was more of a benefit in combat then "pumping chi".

[Ka]

Hey just a comment the ninjustsu (Hatsumi) people i have played with often went on about principles.In particular survival,and doing what is necessary to survive the confrontation.What ever that may entail.Also from experience they evade alot in sparing,(I even copped a gob of spit)often try to damage any guards you put up,and stomp on your toes alot. In general I found them good value to train with. all the above is ofcause just my opinion derived from my experiences here in Oz :)

[Repulsive Monkey]

From my own experience Ninjustu is external Tai Chi is internal. Nuff said really!!

[Water Dragon]

I worked out with the Bujinkan for a couple of months. I have a lot of respect for Hatsumi's stuff. The body work has a definate Chinese feel to it and the mechanics, although different, are similar. From what I gathered, the system is based around a set of short forms called the "Kihon Happo" You start out with basic, set responses, and once your mechanics and timing are good, you start to break them apart to find the principles. The biggest flaw was that there was no real contact sparring. But then again, I never got a chance to see what existed beyond the beginner's level. It is defiantely a principle based system.

If you're interested in the Bujin, the organization is pretty good about keeping records of who is and isn't legit.

[Wu-Xing]

A close friend of mine trains ninjuitsu with brian mc carthy,ive never went to one of their classes but from what i hear they consist of this.One hell of a workout that,pushups etc etc, carrying people around and up stairs on your back,then pounding each other muscles.Then they train situation techniques ,as someone said earlier the "what to do if someone grabs your arm at a bar"kind of stuff.from what my friend has told me it sounds more like a workout/streetfighting.

[Jay Bell]

Hi Xu,

Brian McCarthy is not part of the Bujinkan and has not been for some time. He's doing his own thing now...that type of training is definately not the norm in Budo Taijutsu.

[Water Dragon]

When I was playing with the Bujin, there was a huge emphasis on correct structure and letting the body weight make the technique happen. Pretty similar to CMA.

Jay, I was playing with Rich Hansen out of Highland, IN. I think he is 2nd or 3rd Dan in the system. Have you met him?

[zen_celt]

Looking at the website you linked, the style appears to be To Shin Do. This is what Stephen K. Hayes created from his time with the Bujinkan. I guess it's stilled called ninjutsu but it is considerd more of an offshoot to some fo the more experienced Bujinkan people I've talked to. As far as the techniques v. forms in ninjutsu; my understanding is that there are VERY few forms in Bujinkan Taijutsu most of them being 2 man sets. The techniques are pretty set in what they do but at the same time a good teacher shows the theories that created the techniques and the student picks the shown tech apart to understand the multitude of variations that can then be used in different situations. I've heard that there is internal training at the highest levels but not much, I honestly don't know. There is not much sparring, especially at the first couple stages, as it is thought to create bad habits. Generally though, this differs from school to school as each teacher has their own ideas and methods of transmitting the art. The main overall focus of the art, as I understand it to be, is to cause max damage with minimal effort, or time. An instructor in the Bujinkan phrased it like this: "Two of you walk into a clearing, only one of you walks back."

A good person on this forum to ask about Bujinkan taijutsu and Ninjutsu in general is Rolling Elbow.
-ZC

[Jay Bell]

Hi Water,

I've never met Rich Hansen, I'm actually in Arizona and don't travel too often out of state for training. How did you like the class?

Zen,

There are countless waza (techniques) in Budo Taijutsu. The primary emphasis though is that waza are more geared into transmitting a feeling of the technique and not the physical technique itself. Once a technique is understood, you work on henka, or variations of the technique. This could go on for days and never do the same technique twice. The idea is to keep the primary goal of the original technique still alive...while changing what's happening physically.

Take care,

Jay