Stomach ulcers

[Oso]

anything TCM can do to aid this malady?

[MasterKiller]

Ulcers are cause by a bacteria. You would need something combat the bacteria.

[husto]

anything TCM can do to aid this malady?

Depends on if you want to treat the symptoms or the cause. Why do you have an ulcer? Do you really know?

[Oso]

really? bacteria?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peptic_ulcer

...guess so...just figured it was stress/acid related.


It's not me...it's a student...she IS going to see a doctor but up til now hasn't had a primary care physician so has like 2 weeks before she can be seen.

so, I don't know it's an ulcer but that seems to be what it is and the doctor's office confirmed over the phone that the symptoms indicate the possibility.

she's not in constant pain but I thought I'd see if anyone had any suggestions from the TCM perspective for the meantime.

and, yes, if the symptoms increase dramatically, she'll be going to the emergency room

she is very much a Type A personality and stresses out a lot...beyond that I don't know why she would have them.

thanks

[MasterKiller]

I was diagonosed with a peptic ulcer when I was 19 based on symptoms. They never ran any tests, just gave me medicine and sent me home.

When I was 20, my appendix popped and I spent 11 days in the hospital. Consequently, my ulcer symptoms dissappeared.:mad:

[Oso]

yea, most of the times I wonder about the diagnoses doctor's give.

[GeneChing]

It's not only TCM, but also western medicine, that prescribes licorice for ulcers. In fact, the first time I heard of it was as a child, when my friend's dad had ulcers. He was the kind of guy that would have nothing to do with anything like TCM. Besides, that was like 30 years ago; the term TCM wasn't even part of the American vernacular back then. The doctor had put him on raw licorice, which is intense stuff. It's not at all like the sugary licorice whips you might have had at the movies. It's kind of funny to think of medicinals evolving to candy. TCM calls it gan cao. You can get it at any herbal store. Licorice tea is great for all sorts of maladies, including ulcers.

[Oso]

I've taken the raw licorice for chest colds before...thanks...but it was prescribed by an old mountain man...

not a whole lot of difference betwixt TCM and old timey stuff.

In the Appalachian's, Ginseng ('sang in the vernacular) is 'big business' with whole families taking part in the 'hunt'. Up in the northern part of the state there were areas known for the ginseng plant and you could get in big trouble (read as 'shot') if you went huntin' for it on the wrong land.

Thanks...I'd not heard of that for stomach issues. I'll tell her. There's a good natural herb store or 6 in town....ok, ok...maybe a second good reason to keep hippies around ;)

[GeneChing]

TCM is the ol' timey stuff, just from China. The hippies of today are the taoist shamans of yesteryear and the ol' mountain men of tomorrow. Ok, even I don't believe that, but take it from an ol' taoist hippie, licorice root'll cure what ails ya.

[Oso]

TCM is the ol' timey stuff, just from China.

that's what I was gettin' at.

The hippies of today are the taoist shamans of yesteryear and the ol' mountain men of tomorrow. Ok, even I don't believe that,

whew, thanks for clarifying...

ok, i rag on hippies a lot...but, you know it's not the real hippies that **** me off so... it's the hypocritical trustafarian types who ***** about the ruination of the earth but smoke a pack of eagles a day and drive Explorers thier mommy gave em.


but take it from an ol' taoist hippie, licorice root'll cure what ails ya.

i believe ya.



Chris, AFAIK, it's the American Ginseng that's local here. If I remember it has a higher % of the active ingredient than all the others...something like 22-24% versus 16-18%.

[herb ox]

There's actually a slightly better product than raw licorice (IMHO) for treating ulcers and the like. It's called DGL - deglycerated licorice. It comes in a pill form, tastes pretty funky and is REALLY slippery and mucilagenous, which may coat the stomach lining and allow for the healing of the ulcers. It's still fairly natural and I've heard nothing but good things about it. It should be easily located at your local health food store.

Oddly enough, the bismuth contained in pepto bismol can kill the H. Pylori bacterium, coat the stomach and allow for healing.

My teachers are fond of a particular patent med that basically contains medicated gypsum and borneol to soothe and heal the stomach lining.

Meanwhile, I'd avoid spicy foods, coffee, alcohol and tobacco.

peace

herb ox

[Sang Feng Fan]

Ulcers are cause by a bacteria. You would need something combat the bacteria.

I know three people who found out that this was the cause of their ulcers.

I know five more including myself who had the the same tests and did not find the bacteria, ulcers are indeed also caused by diet, mental/physical stress.

People who go around saying it's just a bacterialogical infection have not done their homework and are giving out medical advice that is flawed and dangerous.

Let them hit your throat with lidacaine, take the upper G.I. and leta real Gastrointerologist answer your medical questions, it could be anything from a foreign object to cancer.

[neilhytholt]

Actually, did you know that Pepsi was originally designed to help settle people's stomach?

If you have an upset stomach, something about phosphated sugar is supposed to settle the stomach.

Oddly enough, I have only found extremely old people or Chinese who use it for that purpose, however.

Everybody else just drinks it like a soft drink.

I have also found that if you hang out long enough with Indians and Chinese you start speaking in broken English and your grammar suffers terribly.

[MasterKiller]

I know three people who found out that this was the cause of their ulcers.

I know five more including myself who had the the same tests and did not find the bacteria, ulcers are indeed also caused by diet, mental/physical stress.

People who go around saying it's just a bacterialogical infection have not done their homework and are giving out medical advice that is flawed and dangerous.

75% of gastric and 90% of duodenal ulcers are caused by Helicobacter pylori. That's a pretty high ratio and your personal results do not reflect the norm.

Hopefully, telling people ulcers are caused by bacterial infection will most likely result in them going to see a professional instead of them sitting around and "trying to worry less." On this thread alone, Oso had no idea that bacteria could be responsible because people have been saying ulcers are caused by stressed for so long that everyone just assumes it's always true.

Anyone who treats themselves based on the opinions posted on a kung fu message board gets what they deserve.

[Oso]

There's actually a slightly better product than raw licorice (IMHO) for treating ulcers and the like. It's called DGL - deglycerated licorice. It comes in a pill form, tastes pretty funky and is REALLY slippery and mucilagenous, which may coat the stomach lining and allow for the healing of the ulcers. It's still fairly natural and I've heard nothing but good things about it. It should be easily located at your local health food store.

Oddly enough, the bismuth contained in pepto bismol can kill the H. Pylori bacterium, coat the stomach and allow for healing.



thanks.

can you point to something that validates your statement on pepto bismol?


she's still waiting to see the doctor...next week I think.

I just went through the process for getting that first appointment at a primary care pysician...my appointment was 5 weeks out from when I called.





and, for like the 5th time...she's going to a doctor to get it checked out...I was just checking to see if there might be something in TCM that could relieve the symptoms till then. She can't stand licorice so hasn't done that. I'll se if she'll try the pepto.

[Sang Feng Fan]

75% of gastric and 90% of duodenal ulcers are caused by Helicobacter pylori. That's a pretty high ratio and your personal results do not reflect the norm.

Hopefully, telling people ulcers are caused by bacterial infection will most likely result in them going to see a professional instead of them sitting around and "trying to worry less." On this thread alone, Oso had no idea that bacteria could be responsible because people have been saying ulcers are caused by stressed for so long that everyone just assumes it's always true.

Anyone who treats themselves based on the opinions posted on a kung fu message board gets what they deserve.

Statistics refer to the population, diagnosis to the individual. Your statement, regardless of the statistics was irresponsible.

[neilhytholt]

75% of gastric and 90% of duodenal ulcers are caused by Helicobacter pylori. That's a pretty high ratio and your personal results do not reflect the norm.

Hopefully, telling people ulcers are caused by bacterial infection will most likely result in them going to see a professional instead of them sitting around and "trying to worry less." On this thread alone, Oso had no idea that bacteria could be responsible because people have been saying ulcers are caused by stressed for so long that everyone just assumes it's always true.

Anyone who treats themselves based on the opinions posted on a kung fu message board gets what they deserve.

Well it's kindof like saying that cavities are 'caused' by bacteria. Well, yes, the cavities are caused by the acids produced by the bacteria.

But what helps the bacteria to grow is lactose, sucrose and glucose, and not cleaning the teeth and eliminating the plaque and bacteria colonies.

So what may 'cause' the ulcer is the bacteria, but why are the bacteria there in the first place?

[herb ox]

Oso -

Check out the journal Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy at http://aac.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/48/6/1983
Researchers found bismuth to reduce H. pylori levels to below the threshold of detection apparently by limiting the amount of iron the bacteria can uptake, thereby limiting bacterial function.

Other researchers found bismuth to cause disruptive swelling of the h. pylori cell walls. See http://jac.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/43/5/659 for the abstract of the publication.

Finally, the National Institutes on Health (NIH) list bismuth subsalicate as one of the meds used to treat peptic ulcers. Their info clearinghouse website also reinforces MasterKiller's statement of peptic ulcers being caused primarily by an infection of H. Pylori, not stress or diet. In fact, the site lists asprin and ibuprofin (NSAIDS) as another cause of peptic ulcers. See http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/hpylori/

Regardless of whether you examine the bacterial cause of the ulcer or the underlying issues of the immune system, one should consult a primary care practicioner. There's nothing wrong, however, with sharing experiences and asking for information or educating our faithful readers.

Debate to your heart's content, but play nicely! We all bring different backrounds and experiences to the table - all information is useful when put in to perspective.

peace

herb ox

[neilhytholt]

The symptom they are treating is the bacteria. But why are the bacteria there?

Are the bacteria there because too much acid in the stomach? Or some other reason?

Just blaming the bacteria isn't necessarily correct. I've known several people who got ulcers from too much aspirin as well, so bacteria is definitely not the only cause.

[MasterKiller]

In 2005, the doctors who discovered the link between H. pylori and ulcers were given the Nobel Prize. That in of itself is pretty significant.

Fact is, 50 to 75% of the world's human stomachs are infested with H. pylori, and 70% of those infections show no symptoms at all. In the absence of antibiotic based treatments, H. pylori infection apparently persists for life; the human immune system is not able to eradicate it.

[Oso]

Thanks, herb ox.

It seems then, that there may be a link between ulcers and stress in that it's known to depress immune systems. Perhaps the stress reduces a necessary immune function in the stomach system that would ordinarily prevent the H. pylori form causing the ulcer.

[neilhytholt]

In 2005, the doctors who discovered the link between H. pylori and ulcers were given the Nobel Prize. That in of itself is pretty significant.

Fact is, 50 to 75% of the world's human stomachs are infested with H. pylori, and 70% of those infections show no symptoms at all. In the absence of antibiotic based treatments, H. pylori infection apparently persists for life; the human immune system is not able to eradicate it.

Do you understand the cavities analogy? I guess not. Oh. well.

Nobel prize means nothing.

And Einstein just re-stated other physicists thinking in an easily readable form and took the credit.

And most doctors are just drug-pushers.

Next topic?

[qiphlow]

well, i know for a fact that 100% of people who were diagnosed with ulcers were, in fact, born. therefore, i can say with 100% certainty that the root cause of ulcers is birth. i do not, unfortunately, have a solution.

[MasterKiller]

Do you understand the cavities analogy? I guess not. Oh. well.

Nobel prize means nothing.

And Einstein just re-stated other physicists thinking in an easily readable form and took the credit.

And most doctors are just drug-pushers.

Next topic?

I thought you were only a ****ing idiot when it came to women! Silly me...

[neilhytholt]

I thought you were only a ****ing idiot when it came to women! Silly me...

Okay, I'll try to write this more like Scott Brown, since he's so good at elucidating his points.

Cavities are caused by bacteria. Or, you could say, cavities are caused by the acids which are produced as a byproduct of the bacteria metabolizing sugars in your mouth.

Or you could say that sugars in your mouth causes colonies of bacteria to grow in your mouth, which causes acid, which causes cavities.

Or you could say that eating too many sweets or simple sugars, or milk products (lactose) causes sugars in your mouth, which causes colonies of bacteria, which causes acid, which causes cavities.

So how do you treat cavities? You can plug them (fillings). You can brush your teeth better. Or you can stop eating so many simple sugars. Or you can somehow try to not introduce the bacteria (which is difficult since bacteria are coating just about everything everywhere).

Did you know that you can even transfer the bacteria through kissing? Yes, cavities or at least certain strains of bacteria can be transferred even through kissing or sharing cups, glasses, etc. Some strains of bacteria are worse than others.

Okay.

So now let's take ulcers. Ulcers are a breakdown of the lining of the stomach wall, which if not treated, will eventually break through and cause a rupture, whereby the contents of the stomach (strong acids) will enter the body cavities, causing internal bleeding among other things, and blood will also enter the stomach.

Not very good.

So what causes ulcers? Is it the bacteria? Why are the bacteria there? What are they feeding off of? If a healthy person does not have ulcers, then why do they not have ulcers? Is it something the person ate? Did they ingest the bacteria?

So assuming that the bacteria eat away at the stomach lining, how does this occur?

So this doctors findings were that if he ate the bacteria, he'd get the disease. He reasoned that this means the bacteria cause the disease.

But how'd the bacteria get there in the first place? Were they always there? Were they from eating? Or were they there in small quantities and was there a population explosion because of some internal or external factor?

It's well known that your gut, for example, is host to many different types of bacteria. Changes to your body's PH balance, for example, will change the types of bacteria that grow in your gut. They also change the type of bacteria that grow on your skin, causing it to stink in different ways.

In fact, if you kill off the healthy bacteria in your gut, a lot of times bad bacteria will grow, which causes stinky ****s, for example.

Pickles ... why do people eat pickles? It's because eating certain foods can cause bad bacteria to bloom in the gut. It's not for taste. People found that eating pickles can simplify the intestinal bacteria.

So is it possible that the bacteria are naturally occurring, but that people with ulcers have a larger percentage of them (an outbreak) than normal people? He did nothing to discount this theory.

So basically he figured out that bacteria causes ulcers, just like bacteria cause cavities.

But HE DID NOT FIGURE OUT THE ROOT CAUSE, which is what causes the bacterial blooms in these people.

Which still could be diet, stress, or alcohol, etc.

Get it?

And I won't go into the thinking of the physics around the time Einstein created his theory of relativity at and all that. Let's just say that the logical outcome of the Michelson-Morley experiment was the theory of relativity and it was on the tongues of the physicists of the time, and that Einstein just put it into a simple document that was easy to understand.

Therefore people think he was a genius.

If Scott R. Brown comes across and reads this, he'll expound upon what I've written in a much better reasoned manner, and you'll think he's a genius, and I'm an idiot.

So whatever.

[Oso]

and to sumarise neilhyholtishbiem.... ;)

(btw, $5 to the person who gets the reference....)

IS IT THE CHICKEN OR THE EGG?????????????????

CUZ, if it was the egg...then it figured out E=MC2 way before anyone else did and is sitting back drinkin' margaritas with Bionce on his lap about now.

[neilhytholt]

and to sumarise neilhyholtishbiem.... ;)

(btw, $5 to the person who gets the reference....)

IS IT THE CHICKEN OR THE EGG?????????????????

CUZ, if it was the egg...then it figured out E=MC2 way before anyone else did and is sitting back drinkin' margaritas with Bionce on his lap about now.

Well, kindof hard to make money off of E=MC2. You have to have an audience who thinks that it's actually useful to sell it to.

You know, people are kindof limited, don't you think?. ~6.3 billion out of 6.3 billion don't understand very basic things, like the feeding of the 5000.

But that's okay ... they'd rather be sitting with Beonce on their lap, and they don't even accomplish that. Well, maybe a few get to sit with Beonce on their lap. Not me ... :)

There's an old saying from China. There's this very famous doctor, famous throughout all of China, and they ask him why he's so famous.

He says, "Well, really I'm nothing. My brother, he cures disease when it just starts to show up. His name doesn't make it out of the village."

"My older brother, he cures disease before it starts to form, so his name doesn't get out of the house."

"Myself, I prescribe various herbs and potions, curing some people after they're very sick, and therefore I'm famous throughout all of China."

[Oso]

hey, just reread what I posted last night and realizd it might seem like I was slamming you by playing with your alias...wasn't, just having fun.

[qiphlow]

i still think i'm right...:D

[cha kuen]

yes tcm can, go find an acupucntursit.