Bak Mei / SPM Stances

[neilhytholt]

So anybody know what's up with this tiger stance/step of Bak Mei and SPM. Anybody have a good resource on the proper mechanics?

In some demos of Bak Mei, people doing their forms fast seem like they get off balance being so high up. Is there some way to do this properly in a lower stance? Anybody use some stance or step other than tiger stance / step for this?

[Yum Cha]

Hi,
I think I'd have to see the videos you reference to make an observation. Post a link and we'll see what you mean.

Good pak mei has feet flat, stance low, generally speaking, but its a complex topic, full of the expected exceptions, opinions and variations.

[neilhytholt]

http://www.pakmeinyc.net/media.htm

The first video, the sifu, sometimes he is lower, but at the end of some moves he goes high, and leaves wide open for sweeps and takedowns.

Second video, the students, do the forms so fast and high it seems like they're almost falling over in some places, like when they do forward kicks.

[Yum Cha]

OK, I see what you are talking about.

We use a rise and fall technique, a swallow and spit as well. in-out-up-down. The forms are more technical and perhaps even more stylised than the actual applications you would use in fighting.

The concept being that you train the power generation techniques abstractly, then apply them practically from muscle memory. Many of our exercises look to be esoteric or non-martial, but they are core training, not extremity training, or application training.

When you train at speed it is training to develop muscle memory, stamina and reaction time. It also trains reflex and issue strength. You should nevertheless remain stable, but sometimes when you are reaching a bit in your performance, it shows. Pictures of students training are often inaccurately taken as examples of perfection, which they of course are not.

Personally, I like the movies on the New Zealand Pak Mei website better.

Have a look at the animated photos showing some rise and fall techniques:

http://members.fortunecity.com/cmasnz01/photos.htm

or the movie of Sifu Lee at:

http://cmasnz.coolfreepages.com/sifulee.php

Let me know if you see a difference.

[neilhytholt]

Okay, wow. Yeah, thanks for sharing that link.

He has high stances but he's much more stable in his movements and precise even at high speeds.

[chasincharpchui]

i love the spm facial expressions wen they're doin their forms

lol:D

[Yum Cha]

One of the issues with good Pak Mei, like many other southern arts, is foundation. A solid stance creates a platform from which you can develop more adventurous movement.

Also, in a real application, you don't stop high, or stop low, the power comes from the transition between the two, as you can see in the link with the animated still photos.

And than there is the charging component....

Cheers

[neilhytholt]

Well, guess I shouldn't have judged the style from a few videos.

That Sifu seems very, very good, BTW.

Bak Mei seems so different than other styles.

I'm wondering if there's some style out there that is kindof like tiger based, but a little more fluid in the movements, kindof like an Eagle claw, but not long fist.

Like without the extreme extension of Chow Lay Fut, without the emphasis on strength like Hung Gar, but a little more fluid than Bak Mei.

[Pakmei]

Sorry, have to comment on the last quote.

What makes you think that Pak Mei isn't fluid?

[mantiskilla]

Dave

In Pak Mei does the body and hands incorporate circles into the movements?
Thanks Bill
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[neilhytholt]

Sorry, have to comment on the last quote.

What makes you think that Pak Mei isn't fluid?

It's really jerky. Jerk up, jerk down, jerk forward, jerk backward, etc.

[meltdawn]

neil, let's see a video of you doing your style.

[neilhytholt]

I'm not putting down your style -- are you that insecure? Just because somebody says they don't like a car because it's black doesn't mean it's a bad car, just means they don't like it.

Personally I don't really like Bak Mei or Lung Ying because IMHO it's just ugly. It doesn't have the elegance of some northern styles or even Hung Gar or SPM, IMHO.

That being said, it's supposed to be effective, right? But that doesn't mean I want to study it just because it's effective. If it's awkward to a person doesn't mean they want to study it.

Supposedly when CLC demoed his stuff the committee wasn't impressed either. Doesn't mean he wasn't a great fighter or wasn't undefeated. Just means they didn't like it.

So I was just wondering if there's some other Southern style that's like dragon or tiger. Because IMHO Lung Ying and Bak Mei are both influenced by CLC.

[Yum Cha]

Hi Dave, Melty, Neil,
While I find Pak Mei beautiful and fluid, I also understand why some people think its ugly, no offense taken. I often describe it as ugly to people I know are looking for something like what you are talking about Neil. If you want a white car, its fine with me if you think a black one is ugly. No worries.

Something to understand about Pak Mei is that you train fundamental skills, body core movements, and reflex "twitches" as part of the development of your higher level skills. Those exercises you see are jerky, I know exactly what you mean, some more jerky than others, but as your skill level develops, it does indeed flow, it flows better than many arts. And that flow is powerful, not gymnastic. Our circles are small. We focus the issue of power at the point of contact, which is just an instant.

Boxers talk about combination training, and the ultimate 5 punch combination. Think along those lines, only string several 3, 4, 5 punch combinations together. That is where the flow comes from, but you won't see it in a novice.

We have a saying, first you learn the pearls, than you learn to string them together, than you learn to change the string.

I make no attempt to persuade anybody that Pak Mei is better or worse than any other art. Every door has its own key. And besides, your chances of finding a Sifu are pretty slim anyhow. There are only a handful of great ones in the world.

Melty, have you seen much Pak Mei on your travels?

Dave, how's your school doing?

Cheers
M

[mantis108]

I'm not putting down your style -- are you that insecure? Just because somebody says they don't like a car because it's black doesn't mean it's a bad car, just means they don't like it.

Personally I don't really like Bak Mei or Lung Ying because IMHO it's just ugly. It doesn't have the elegance of some northern styles or even Hung Gar or SPM, IMHO.

That being said, it's supposed to be effective, right? But that doesn't mean I want to study it just because it's effective. If it's awkward to a person doesn't mean they want to study it.

Supposedly when CLC demoed his stuff the committee wasn't impressed either. Doesn't mean he wasn't a great fighter or wasn't undefeated. Just means they didn't like it.

So I was just wondering if there's some other Southern style that's like dragon or tiger. Because IMHO Lung Ying and Bak Mei are both influenced by CLC.

I am sure you are entitle to your own opinion. I am not sure who's Lung Ying or Bak Mei you have seen. I really feel sorry that you decidedly believe that they are ugly but then I can't blame you as I have seen some pretty "ulgy" LY & BM myself.

One thing to clarify. Lung Ying was not influenced by CLC. It's the other way arround. So.... Lung Ying in fact is one of the most beautiful and culturally rich Kung Fu systems there is out there. CLC's Bak Mei is also very beautifully put together IMHO.

Mantis108

[neilhytholt]

I am sure you are entitle to your own opinion. I am not sure who's Lung Ying or Bak Mei you have seen. I really feel sorry that you decidedly believe that they are ugly but then I can't blame you as I have seen some pretty "ulgy" LY & BM myself.

One thing to clarify. Lung Ying was not influenced by CLC. It's the other way arround. So.... Lung Ying in fact is one of the most beautiful and culturally rich Kung Fu systems there is out there. CLC's Bak Mei is also very beautifully put together IMHO.

Mantis108

You're right, it's not so much that it's ugly, just that the teachers around who teach publicly I don't like their movements much.

Like that Bak Mei link that guy posted of the New Zealand teacher, his Bak Mei is very good, and I don't think it looks bad, but most other schools I've found I don't really like their movements.

That being said, I still don't think I like the Bak Mei Shen Fa that much.

I guess the bottom line is, after carefully analyzing it, I really don't like the whole dip gwut (bone rib) power thing.

I don't doubt that it's effective, but it seems very awkward.

[mantiskilla]

http://cmasnz.coolfreepages.com/sifulee.php

I liked the Pak Mei with Sifu Lee on this site, but the Lung Ying Mor Kiu video on there is neither Lung Ying or Mor Kiu. BTW, from what I have seen in person and video I personally think that KMF in NYC and his students rock.
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