3 step push

[Vince]

I got a question here:

I read on the net, that Pak Mei 9 Step Push and Lung Ying 16 Step Push both developed out of the Shaolin Form 3 Step Push.

Now has anybody ever seen this form? Does it even exist?:confused:

Thanks ahead for any answers

vince

[Ao Qin]

Hi - both arts share a similar root - same root different tree...

Jek Bo and Bo Bo Toy (exercise) are very similiar - one using more of a "pressing power", one using more of a "snapping power" - both share the swallow spit concept - both are short and fundamental. 16 Movements almost the same as the BBT - slightly modified is all. GBT is (in my opinion) not connected with what some call the Sam Chien / 3 step push / Sam Goh Mah / Lam Ga / Sam Bo Toi, etc.

I think these concepts are the fundamental ties which bind Lung Ying, Bak Mei, Southern Mantis, etc. GBT is advanced BM. Manits 108 could shed a brighter light on this though if he's willing!

Just my two cents...

la - AQ

[mantis108]

Hi Ao Qin and All,

You give me to much credit, my friend. :) Your information is very insightful already.

Most of the Southern styles as we know them are either derived from or influenced by Fujian Yong Chun He Fa (Fujian Yong Chun Crane method) which is the prototypical version of Fujian Baihe (White Crane) as we know it today.

San Zhan (3 Battles) is a very important form that encompassed all the southern styles mechanics and principles. We could say that it's the mother of all forms in southern styles. It's primary function is similar to all those so-called Qigong forms such as Ba Duan Jin (8 pieces of brocade), Yi jin jing (tendon change classic), etc. It is to build the person from inside out in a holistic manner. This is why you seldom hear about or find many other Qigong forms within the southern styles. There really is no need for those if the San Zhan or its derivitives are done properly! ;)

it is believed that San Bu Tui (Sarm Bo Tuey in Cantonese) came from Abbot Gee Sin's line. Gee Sin was the progenitor of Yong Chun (forever spring) style. One of his student Wang Qun (Wong Kwan) was a Hakka person. He also taught in Haifeng (Hoi Fung), Guangdong/Canton. I believe this is the famous Hoi Fung Si in the Lung Ying/Bak Mei tradition.

It is a fact that GM Cheung Lai Chun learned various arts includning Lung Ying. If you ask me, Bak Mei as a style as we know it, is actually a creation of his own experiences with various styles. He was a self made martial artist and brilliant mind person IMHO. All the "other lineages" of Bak Mei business is vivid imagination and creative hijacking of his success. I have no interest in flame war but I believe we should give credit where credit is due. The same goes to GM Lum Yui Kwai's Lung Ying.

If we look at all the so called Bak Mei forms (Jik Bo, Guo Bo Tuey, Sap Baat Mor Kui, Meng Fu Chu Lum, etc) that he taught, we find a consistency that is echoing the Jik Bo which is derived from Sarm Bo Tuey. BTW GBT as I heard it from my Sifu , it is based on SBT. Without Jik Bo as an anchor there's no Bak Mei. Without cohersion and without consistency the forms are just a bunch of movements clinging together. You can pretty much forget about having a system and a style.

Just some thoughts to share.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Vince]

Thanks to all answers. That helped and clarified a lot.

If I may ask though: Is there any demo video out there, that one could watch this form, or at least some sections, to see where the connections are?

[Lau]

Ls,

Truely an interesting read, and it even makes me more curious how the 3 step push form looks like. Is it still around somewhere or is it only a legend? Or even better : is there any video footage or drawings somewhere on the net where I can see the core movements of the form?

Best begards, Lau

[Mufahok]

My 2 cents:-

Rightly said that most Southern styles, especially Fukien based, are SanChin-centric to a certain extent. For some styles, this is elemental. Most Cranes come to mind.

Lately the notion is that Fukien Crane could the precursor of many other styles, Fukien, Hakka and even Cantonese.

Some are linking Fukien Crane back to Shaolin. As pointed out, Shaolin is implied to be the mother source.

I think there’s another style that is skirted by most in considering roots and that is Tai Zhu or Grand Ancestor Boxing.

Tai Zhu predating Fukien Crane is a definition. This style saw its beginning during the Song dynasty.

Of course the curious thing is Southern Tai Zhu is very much Sanchin based. In fact, the only style with 3 Sanchin forms and Sanchin principles permeate the entire syllabus.

Not drawing any conclusion but attention.

Thank you.

[Shaolin Master]

Fujian Taizuquan is the mother fist of minnan more so than crane. One must be careful with the current Pan family Yongchun baihequan and the other hequan (ming, su, fei, shi etc) because they have their details as well.

Sanbutui can be found within Longxing's shiliudong and Baimei's Jiubutui (and some variants of Zhibu as there are a few nowadays).

Although all of these taizuquan, hequan, dongjiangquan share the tuntufouchun principles and the bibu shuang tuizhang is common as well as it stands nowadays they have developed their differences through generations.

kind regards
Wu Chanlong

[Mufahok]

Pardon me if I am sidetracking this thread.

Spoke to the Pan family recently; amongst other things, their family gathering this year, and Pan Senior pointed out that, Tai Zhu, indeed has got more history than Fukien Crane.

You are right; the core tuntufochen concept support a shared starting point.

This concept could be seen in many Southern styles in spite of dialect distinctiveness.

To my understanding, even some sects of Wing Chun utilize this in their expressions of skills.

Imho, demonstration of ttfc is the most palpable in MingHe staff form. The entire body together with the long staff moves strictly according to ttfc ideology.

That aside, I think the other interesting point is the concept of “San”.

So we got

• San Zhan – 3 Fights.
• San Bo Jin – 3 Arrows Step.
• San Po Tui – 3 Push Step.
• San Pai Fut – 3 Praying to the Buddha as in Wing Chun.

Can anyone here broaden this?

[mantis108]

Found a version of 3 Step Arrow by Sifu Manuel Rodriguez

3 Step Push (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuAs6sbcdO4&mode=related&search=KUNG%20FU%20MANTIS)

Now, for those who have studied GM Cheung Lai Chun's Bak Mei, I am sure you would see some interesting resemblances between the structures and techniques of the 2 forms. ;)

BTW, there is also Tam family's 3 Extentions which is also where Iron Wire came from. In some non Wong Fei Hung Hung Gar lineages, there is a form called 3 extentions cross over to iron wire (sam jen gor tit sin).

Mantis108

[Vince]

First of all thanks for the video.

Is this video the "san bu toi" or the "san bu jin"? Or are these forms the same?

[taichi4eva]

Mantis 108, what does the form "3 extensions" look like? Sounds a lot like Sanzhan from Fujian. It wouldn't be unreasonable to think this because most Southern Shaolin originated from Fujian.

[PlumDragon]

First of all thanks for the video.
Is this video the "san bu toi" or the "san bu jin"? Or are these forms the same?
2nd, was an interesting video.

The beginning of the clip "unclearly" states at the bottom of the screen that this is Chu Ga sam bo jin. FWIW, while it has similarities, there are a variety of other sam bo jin variations that look significantly different than this one.

[mantis108]

Mantis 108, what does the form "3 extensions" look like? Sounds a lot like Sanzhan from Fujian. It wouldn't be unreasonable to think this because most Southern Shaolin originated from Fujian.

Hi Taichi4eva,

As far as I know "3 extensions" is the technique which is within the Iron Wire set also. I am of the opinion that many of the Guangdong (Cantonese) arts are originally from Fujian. Gee Sin and Hung Hei Kwoon were said to be from there. So...

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Mufahok]

Mantis108,

Thank you for your sharing.

Got a couple of questions that you might be able to shed some light:-

• Read someplace that SanZhan could be essentially traced back to Shaolin LuoHan. Your views?

• In Fujian Shaolin Luohan, the highest level is done with “emotional” triggers like “Xi, Nu, Ai and Le”. Do you see these as prototype of Tit Sin Kuen?

• Is Mantis LuoHan Kun taken off Shaolin?


• Chronologically, Tai Zhu predates all the discussed Fujian styles. The fact that Tai Zhu is, seemingly, so similar to the other Fujian styles; is Tai Zhu the source art?

I watched the above linked clip and the similarity with Tai Zhu is really very strong. Except maybe for the delivery, many movements are alike.

Thank you.

[Shaolin Master]

Fuzhou Luohan is of the minbei arts which extend from around putian and northwards including zhejiang regions, arts such as Huzunquan, Luohanquan, jinggangquan, heihuquan etc...

The Luohan of Fojiapai includes Tingjing, Fuhu, Xianglong, Xinu, etc...Luohan methods. These are fairly different to common Luohan which does not include such practice.

Sanzhan is acknowledged as a derivative of Minnan Taizuquan of the pujiang and quanzhou regions not Luohan. Taizuquan is the father of Wuzuquan.

Kejia arts of the Dongjiang region (Baimei, Longxing and Zhujia (or Zhoujia/Zhulin)) have there own power expression which now differs from the Fujian minnan methods. Movements are alike in many things it is the power generation or execution and intention which are often distinguishing features.


Regards
Wu Chanlong

[mantis108]

Hi Mufahok,


Mantis108,

Thank you for your sharing.

Got a couple of questions that you might be able to shed some light:-

You are most welcome. It's a pleasure to share my views with you. I would caution though that all views put forth by me is my own opinions. It may not be in total accordance with written and oral traditions. They will only serve as an alternate perspective.


• Read someplace that SanZhan could be essentially traced back to Shaolin LuoHan. Your views?

Personally, I believe the Luohan that's found in Fujian area is not Shaolin per se. I believe Luohan as a martial art has to do with the White Lotus cult movement. I believe Luohan is a derivitive of Fanziquan, which as Shaolin Master pointed out, was based in Minbei, the northern regions of Fujian. It is believed that Fang Zhong (father of Fang Qiliang) originally was from Zhejiang area. Then they moved to Chuan Zhou, Fujian. Eventually settled down in Yong Chun. The Fang family might have been involved with the White Lotus cult. SanZhan as a concept is based in TCM which by Ming dynasty is fully adapted into most of the old styles (ie Taizu, Fanzi, Houquan, etc...) IMHO.


• In Fujian Shaolin Luohan, the highest level is done with “emotional” triggers like “Xi, Nu, Ai and Le”. Do you see these as prototype of Tit Sin Kuen?

It is highly possible IMHO.


• Is Mantis LuoHan Kun taken off Shaolin?

Regarding Mantis Luohan Kun, I am not sure if you mean Southern or Northern. Kun as in Gong or Kuen (Quan in mandarin?) . If you mean northen mantis' 18 Luohan Gong, then it's not really Shaolin. It came from Luohan Xinggong DuanDa (Arhat short strike) which is believe to be indigenous to Shandong province. It has no relation with 18 Luohan Shou Qigong of Henan Shaolin temple as far as I am aware. The 18 Luohan Shou Qigong in my mind is a modern day (c. 1920 CE.) make up form.


• Chronologically, Tai Zhu predates all the discussed Fujian styles. The fact that Tai Zhu is, seemingly, so similar to the other Fujian styles; is Tai Zhu the source art?

It is said according to folklore that Taizu in Fujian was likely first brought in by the Song dynasty Zhao Family to the Quan Zhou area. They were the imperial family that was overthrown by the Mongolians. If that's the case, it should resemble more of the "northern" styles at the time (ie Tongbi, Pigua, etc) wouldn't you think? Is it possible that it is the patriarch to all other Fujian styles. It could be possible. However, why would it all of a sudden lost the Long Fist characteristics and have a "southern" outlook? So who's to say that Taizu didn't get influenced by other styles such as Luohan, Houquan, Dazun, Baihe, etc... over the years it's nearly impossible to determine who influenced who. What's more is that who's to say it's "authentic", "accurately" and truthfully transmitted over the years? Do with have all the necessary documentations? If not then it's a case of hersay I am afraid. It's not too productive to pursuit that IMHO.


I watched the above linked clip and the similarity with Tai Zhu is really very strong. Except maybe for the delivery, many movements are alike.

I take it that you practice Taizu? May be you can share a clip for us to compare as well? If you are willing to share, we would appreciate that. Thanks :)

Regards

Mantis108

[Mufahok]

Thank you both very much. I knew there was a reason to join this thread.

Likewise, I am presenting alternative views, shaped primarily through talking to other Kung Fu teachers and colleagues. To restate; not to draw conclusion but attention.

• When I mention Luohan, I am talking more about Fujian Luohan as opposed to Fojiaquan. Not a stand-alone style per se but more a component of a multifaceted syllabus. Accordingly to what I know, this line of Shaolin is no longer active on the mainland. Propagation is presently found mainly in Malaysia, Singapore Indonesia and lately Europe. Their Luohan skill sets, imho, is a good showcase of Northern, Southern, Internal and External elements. What I find to be the most fascinating is perhaps, the emotion triggers found at the advanced level of their Luohan. Having seen this and Tit Sin Kuen up close lead me to suspect they could have come from a common place.

• Kekjia, as you rightly pointed out, has a distinctive way of Fajin. Their “Bik Bo” style of delivery is really awesome. Talking to some kekjia old-timers, I often hear comments like; kekjia is not big on “flowers” but super-size on “Saat” or “kill”. Really cannot argue here. Many kekjia techniques are commonly found in other Kung Fu but still their deliveries set them apart. I wonder if this could be because of particular circumstances confronting them as “gypsies”. However, their tactics could also be seen in styles like Hsing Yi, Xin Yi , Tai Zhu and to a certain extent, Fujian BaiHe. Maybe not so much “saat” but definitely the same veins.


• Mantis108, Fang Chong and “BaiLien” is something new to me. Orally we were told that Chi Niang played a significant role in “Tien Ti” and even today in some Fuzhou BaiHe, “Tien Ti Hui” is still remembered at the altar table. The ties between Luohan and White Crane is another popular concept within the Fuzhou White Crane fraternity. In some sects, like MingHe for instance, a Luohan form is still practiced. There is also a version of Babulien that is heavily laced with typical Luohan elements. This is rare and only done in some Fuzhou BaiHe lines.

• The argument that Northern and Southern Tai Zhu are independent entities has been going on for many years in the Chinese Kung Fu circles. I have to go with this if you are looking at typical Northern attributes. I am also with you in as far as evolution of Southern Tai Zhu is talked about. Most Fujian styles, apparently, are comparable. If Tai Zhu was a Northern import, it is not too far-fetched to think that, over time; it could have “grown” into something very Fujian. Kind of like you, a Chinese in Canada. That aside, if you look deeper into Tai Zhu, there exist Northern defining features. Looking at Tai Zhu Luohan, for instance, it’s hard to miss the long stances, “one horse one technique” mode of delivery and “body and hands reaching target simultaneously” executed ala “Chang Quan”. Got to agree that pursing “hearsay” is futile. Documentation, like you pointed out, is the way to go. Personally, when given a “folklore” handed down orally through the generations, I treat them as calls to look deeper. My frequent travels within SE Asia allows me good opportunities to talk to many “old” schools to hear some of these.


• Is Tai Zhu the forebear of Wu Zhu? Personally I think this is something that is arguable. That Tai Zhu is a principal part of Wu Zhu composition, however, is undeniable. Take Wu Zhu 5 parts salutation for instance; Tai Zhu does a same 5 parts salutation before going into a form. Talk to anyone in SE Asia, you are likely to hear “White Crane hands and Tai Zhu legs” when Wu Zhu is mentioned. Another suggestion that Tai Zhu had a Northern start perhaps?

Tai Zhu is not my thing. Do know someone with many years in this. I will talk to him about posting a clip.

Thank you both very much.

[Yum Cha]

Thanks for the contributions guys, I've been curious on this topic for awhile. The vids bring it all together. I now feel remiss I didn't stop to visit the SPM school in Houston when I was there.

Just so I know I'm following properly can you please confirm for me:

Kekjia = Hakka?

Fukien Crane = Fujian BaiHe - BUT IS NOT "White Crane", Lama, Pak Hok, which are characterised by their "long arms" and shaolin heritage? or?

“emotional” triggers like “Xi, Nu, Ai and Le” - can someone elaborate?

Thanks for the great thread guys.

---------------

Now, to discuss the thread vs the evidence on video.

The same poster had this video of Han Zhong Luo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAw3UofFo4A

Granted, this is Futsan Pak Mei, but it looks enough like CLC Pak Mei to me for the sake of the discussion. I'm not sure how they fit in, and I don't really care that much for politics.

And this video of "Blondel" a student of Henry Poo Yee: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7Qtq1ypljQ

The SPM players seem to keep more power within while the Pak Mei seems to release more power.

That being said, I've seen SPM done "loose" as well. What can one make of this?

Cheers

[Mufahok]

Hi,

kekjia is Hakka.

Fujian BaiHe is Fukien White Crane. This is different from Lama White Crane.

Some info about the LuoHan I am referring to :-

http://www.sekkohsam.tk/

Here a clip of Fuzhou MingHe SanJin :-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6_4v6Odcgc


Thanks.

[Lau]

Hi Mufahok,

IMHO That SanJin clip is more closer to the Pak Mei I practice than the Southern Mantis video's (or even the pak mei clip as posted by Yam Cha) that are posted here. While the SPM practitioners seem to hold the tension more inside I try to aim for total relaxation in between to releasing power when power is issued.

Thanks for sharing, I love that clip !

Best regards Lau

[Lau]

Ls,

This 3 step form is from Iron ox "Tit Ngaw Pai", called sarm bo fung ngan choi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzHvCEJUrd8

Regards, Lau

[FunkySage]

That SanJin clip is more closer to the Pak Mei I practice than the Southern Mantis video's (or even the pak mei clip as posted by Yam Cha) that are posted here. While the SPM practitioners seem to hold the tension more inside I try to aim for total relaxation in between to releasing power when power is issued.


I think we have to be careful when looking at video performances of forms. Different Sifu's have different intepretation of their forms that result in different expression during performing the form. The important thing I think is looking past the performance and look into what the forms is trying to achieve. I have little experience of bak mei so cannot really comment on yum cha's video post but with regards to SPM I see plenty of similarities there with fuzhou whooping crane despite the more obvious differences between the two first forms. The rooting, use of spiral forces, the use of the back and swallowing of the chest are present in both styles and I would suspect hold equal importance.

Mu Fa Hok, does sanjin differ between the different crane sub-styles? Maybe a comparison between ancestral crane and SPM, bak mei etc would give more hints as to the root or relation between the styles.

As a side with regards to Lau's post on Iron Ox mantis, I think sarm bo fung ngan choi is their beginners form that isn't their sarm bo jin. If I'm not mistaken their sarm bo jin comes later, maybe second or third form. Maybe one of the iron ox mantis people can clarify that point for us.

[Yum Cha]

Thanks for the clarification Mu fa Hok.

Looking at the examples posted, and thinking about my own practice, I keep coming back to the issue of "hei gung".

I think the vid Lau posted shows an individual who has some good training, but has yet to make that jump to the higher level. It provides an interesting comparison to the video of Blondel, who is proportedly a higher-level player.

The video of the SanJin player looks more higher level as well.

Zhong Luo looks to be higher level, but with a much more external manifestation, which is probably appropriate, considering its a public demo, and you should give the public what they want.

I think one of the things that makes this an interesting discussion is the comparison of the internal power. Keeping the power in and becoming powerful like a bull, or building and releasing the power, as Lau mentioned, like a whip.

I'm not sure you can train both and reach the highest level of either, they seem to be contrary expressions. That being said, within Pak Mei, we have the 8 hands, and some of them are more solid and crashing as opposed to snakelike and "whipping".

[Mufahok]

Here’s a clip of Tai Zhu. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YlHQtZ_kqo
Coming across as very “Southern” in character but I think I see a little Fanzi’s “Liao Shou”.
Another aspect that jumps out is the way the grabbing hands are executed.
Mantis108, wouldn’t you say this is how Mantis’ “plucking” hands are done?
Don’t know anything about the background of the technician or his lineage.

Funkysage,

Agreed. To fully appreciate, you got to look further than performances for the intention or “yi”
But when you have 2 individual performers motivated by the same intention, would the rendering be very dissimilar?
Personally, it’s a little like in engineering. You got your means and tolerances. Outside the tolerances, you are probably looking at a different design.

By crane sub styles, I take it you are referring to post Fujian Cranes? Then I got to say there are noticeable differences, well at least in the few that I have knowledge of.

A good Crane friend said this; the further you get away from the source, the more divergent you get. Not entirely true but true enough. In the Chinese context, this is happening not only in Kung Fu but also in other facets of life. A similar ritual, going through different regions/dialect groups, would assume differing flavors. Here again, one look for” intention” to understand the core values.

Interesting that you should raise Ancestral Crane. Exactly which Ancestral Crane do you have in mind?

Are you thinking Fujian Yong Chun White Crane; accepted by many as the predecessor (therefore “Ancestor”) of Southern Crane Arts or have you got something else specific in mind?

To me, comparing different styles to investigate source is a very tall order.

Each style is characterized by it own set of principles/concepts and almost always with its own peculiar histories. Individually some of these histories sometimes doesn’t add up. Complicated further by the fact that most are not properly documented. With some documents, they are archived in a manner comprehensible only to those within the styles only.

Attempting to collate is even more convoluted.

A labyrinth, if you ask me. Maybe that’s why it is so fun.:)

[Weito]

Dear gentlemen,

My compliments about the level of communication. This is the way discussion should be done. Much knowledge, details and impressions are presented in a respectful way with the idea to broaden knowledge.

The Four Feelings as mentioned by Mufahok is Siu lam, or maybe I must say Lohan. Our version of Tit Sin Kuen is based upon these Four Feelings, in fact it does not stay within these Four Feelings. Kwok Yan Sim Si – as oral tradition is being told in our lineage and that of (some) others) said that the journey was made from Fukien. Over the last years I was able to research more deeper into this option, and must say that I am pleased with the results. Still I need to feel the touch and look closely to the mechanisms. This will be happening in 2007.

I have seen a Sam Tzien form from Southern Tai Chor, I was deeply shocked to see strong relation with Tit Sin kuen (Iron Wire Boxing). But also Yong Chun White Crane manifest skills closely to this art. I discuss this relationship Saam tzien – Tit Sin Kuen frequently with Robert, and he agrees with the strong relation. My past experiences in Pak Mei Pai brought me in discussion with some White Crane teachers and their thoughts about TSK – Hakka - Saam tzien. I am pleased that this discussion do continues. Soon practitioners over the world MIGHT be able to see it with their own eyes, and who knows, are able to feel it….

108 LoHan was spread by Ven. Koh. Part of his Lohan was about the Four Feelings. Finally the use of Four Feelings is not specific for external methods. It is also being used in other systems as a kind of Drive Force, for instance fast form Wu Ga Tai Gik.

Warm regards,

Evert.

[FunkySage]

But when you have 2 individual performers motivated by the same intention, would the rendering be very dissimilar?

Mu Fa Hok, you are quite right. But I have seen footage of the sarm bo gin expressed in many different ways from the same lineage by people of varying levels and they all look different. Whether each person is expressing it correctly or incorrectly is largely irrelevant. Understanding and looking at core values imo means that even if the intention is all in the wrong place and expressed incorrectly you should be able to discern at least the general aim of development within it. The core principles that it is meant to bring across.


By crane sub styles, I take it you are referring to post Fujian cranes?

Yes I am refering to Fujian cranes, and with ancestral crane I am referring to shaking crane which according to Yang Jwing Ming is considered the most original style of white crane. I don't know if this is considered the same as Yong Chun White Crane.

I was thinking that if you have all these sub styles which share the same root and in essence share the same principles in their sanjin, by comparing across them we might be able to figure out firstly if there are any differences in how their sanjin is expressed and from that possibly which has a greater influence on other arts eg. SPM, bak mei etc. Yum cha raised the point of power expression "Keeping the power in and becoming powerful like a bull" as opposed to "building and releasing the power like a whip". We have seen whipping power from your clip, but in your experience do any of the substyles practise sanjin with the other in mind keeping the power in etc... like you see in many hakka arts?

As for ancestral crane my thoughts there are that as the root this is where we should start looking for comparisons the foundation style before looking at other substyles.

You are right mufahok, comparing different styles is a tall order. Anecdotal history is invariably always inaccurate. If we are looking at the hakka people, they were considered migratory and could have picked up influences from more than one place, so we would have to look at populations movements etc.. Yes its all a headache but an interesting one at least.

As for style evolution I was reading an article sometime back where a group of 7 star northern mantis students from a HK master went up to Shandong to the root of northern mantis. When they demonstrated their skills to the masters up there. It became very apparent that the style had taken on southern influences with less dynamic footwork and a favouring of strong more static stances although the hands were still the same.

Definitely a labryinth, but I'm quite happy to get a little lost in it. Fascinating stuff.

[Mufahok]

“I think one of the things that makes this an interesting discussion is the comparison of the internal power. Keeping the power in and becoming powerful like a bull, or building and releasing the power, as Lau mentioned, like a whip.

I'm not sure you can train both and reach the highest level of either, they seem to be contrary expressions.”

Speaking strictly for myself and from my SanZhan experience;

SanZhan is designed to train both.

Many SanZhan forms that I am familiar with consist of the slow part – joints/muscles tension coupled with deep breathing. This is, perhaps, what you meant by “keeping” to become “powerful”. We say to draw power from the breathing and body tensing. The legs feel like it’s gripping a ball and this ball is manipulated up and down the body. Go “loose” and you lose the “ball”.

This slow component is done 3 steps forward and 3 steps back; a total of 6 sets. Back to the start position, the norm now is to do quick explosive techniques to the left and right. This explosive release could be in a “whipping” manner or in the case of Tai Zhu, power generated by fast twisting and locking of joints – a little like TKD guys except that bobbing is controlled.

If you bring something like MingHe into the picture, their SanZhan or Sanjin would exhibit the “internal” elements of their art. The 5 elements concept is quite distinct even at this basic form.

IMHO, keeping hard and not being able to translate that into dynamic energy is not something you want. Conversely, you cannot stay soft throughout a fight.

It’s the interplay and timing that make a good fighter.

SanZhan, usually the alpha and omega of many Fujian styles, teaches you just that.

Thank you.

[Mufahok]

“Yes I am refering to Fujian cranes, and with ancestral crane I am referring to shaking crane which according to Yang Jwing Ming is considered the most original style of white crane. I don't know if this is considered the same as Yong Chun White Crane.

I was thinking that if you have all these sub styles which share the same root and in essence share the same principles in their sanjin, by comparing across them we might be able to figure out firstly if there are any differences in how their sanjin is expressed and from that possibly which has a greater influence on other arts eg. SPM, bak mei etc. Yum cha raised the point of power expression "Keeping the power in and becoming powerful like a bull" as opposed to "building and releasing the power like a whip". We have seen whipping power from your clip, but in your experience do any of the substyles practise sanjin with the other in mind keeping the power in etc... like you see in many hakka arts?

As for ancestral crane my thoughts there are that as the root this is where we should start looking for comparisons the foundation style before looking at other substyles.”


FunkySage,

Got to be a wee bit careful here. Both “Shaking” and “Ancestral” are pronounced as “Zhong” in Fuzhou tongue. These are 2 individual styles. I really don’t consider either as the “most” original Cranes.

Both are Fuzhou Cranes, widely accepted as post-Fujian Crane. Can’t really give you solid proof here but most, if not all, Fuzhou Cranes folks talk about descending from either Fujian or Shaolin Crane. Convoluted, remember?

Looking for genetics through Sanchin is, imho, right. About the only common denominator in the styles we have discussed so far.

So what is Sanchin?

My humble experience;

• TunToFoChen or Swallow, spit, float and sink. Almost all Sanchins has this at the heart. To me, even Wing Chun’s “Holding what’s coming and sending what’s leaving” is an expression.
• Power development or jin. I was taught that Sanchin is deliberately done slow to sensitize a person to muscles/tendons/joints in relation to power delivery. A somewhat parallel would be in Tai Chi. To understand and “feel” the various jins in various postures. So when you explode like in Bak Mei or whip in White Crane, the knowledge is really in how the body works to project these energies. And training the “right” body parts becomes crucial. Your Sanchin would probably be training you for your system of jin projection. On that note, I think seeing different performers, of various standards, projecting differently is understandable.
• Iron shirt training. This is the “Shaolin” part of Sanchin imho. Tensing and conditioning body parts to prevent penetration into the organs goes a long way back into kung fu history.


To answer your question; yes there are instances of “keeping” power or what we call “drawing” power.

Again, because we whip, these techniques are preparatory movements to achieve max whipping.

I see Hakka as a “hands out-stay out” style. So your entire body dynamics became the driver of your explosion. Stomping forward and crouching to spring into a technique becomes your signature. That, coupled with, your linear shifting, give you a very aggressive coordination.

To whip, on the hand, is a different ball game. The body and arms got to stay loose, focusing mainly at the end of a technique. Try doing this using both left and right arm gives you a look of “shaking”.

Thanks.

[Mufahok]

Posting another clip of Fuzhou Crane.

This is Fuzhou Crane's BaBuLien, not to be mistaken with MingHe's version. This particular form is seldom talked of and is practised by a few families in Fuzhou communities found in Singapore and Malaysia.

I thought I let you guys see more of the "whipping" we've been talking.

Thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac6IehNjg4c

[mantis108]

Hi Mafahok,

It's great to see the videos for comparison. I would like to extend a warm welcome to all those just came into discussion especially to Evert.

Anyway, here's a few thoughts:

1) Fuzhou He's Sanjin (three advances) seems to be more akin with Wuzu's version. If I am not mistaken, Goju Ryu's San Chin (three battles) came from this? I guess we can see the resemblances. Also we can see the use of Horse stance (Si Ping Ma) and Bow and Arrow (Zi Wu Ma) is more apparent. BTW, Fuzhou is further up north and is a sea port. Now, three advances conceptually is quite different from three battles IMHO. This is obvious with the inculsion of the Si Ping and Zi Wu Ma as found in many northern styles. Also the 5 Phases hands are emphasized in the line of Crane from the video. Personally, I think this line of Fuzhou He is likely the root of the present day Tiger Crane form created by Wong Fei Hung and Lam Sai Wing. I would venture to say it is logical that Hu Zun (tiger master) found in Yongtai which is nearby Fuzhou got merged with Fuzhou He and then got exported to Guangdong area and eventually picked up by Wong Fei Hung who finally added in elements of Luohan and Tibetant Lama in the creation of the masterpiece - Tiger Crane form. If we look at the legend of how tiger crane form came to be, we see that 8 tiger and 8 crane (basically half and half) techniques were included in the creation of the form. Now doesn't the babulien form (8 step linking) resemble the entire section of the crane section? 8 step linking and 8 techniques of crane is that just a coincidence? 5 Phases hands in Sanjin and 5 Phases hand in the tiger crane form? Another coincindence only? I think it's more to the story than that.

2) Taizu is believed to be one of the main styles that was taught in a Chuan Zhou temple which is also a possible location of the legendary Southern Shaolin temple. Chaun Zhou also has a folk lion dance that is symbolic of overturning the Manchurian ruler. It is the dance of the blue lion with white eyebrow dance that the participants/dancers must know "southern Shaolin" Kung Fu. This is perhaps where the legend of killing Bai Mei originate IMHO. It is of note that the Qin dynasty has a 8 Flags/Colors military-social system. The flags are White, Blue, Red, Yellow plus trimmed White, trimmed Blue, trimmed Red, and trimmed Yellow respectively. So we can see the symbolic killing of the lion is to express the wish to overturning the Manchurian ruler with the force provided by Southern Shaolin. This tradition got passed on to Guangdong region as well. Chuan Zhou is quite close to Yong Chun and that Fang family would have sojourned in Chuan Zhou where the Southern Shaolin temple was said to be just across from the White Lotus temple that was destroyed by Qin government when they decided to ban the cult. It is said that Fang Qiniang frequented the White Lotus temple and was a student of a nun there.

3) Here's a clip of Hook Grab Pluck of the northern praying mantis:

Gou Lou Cai (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBIaUZK41Eg)

Although the exponent is a 7 Star line Sifu, this clip shows the HGP in a generic NPM manner. The HGP in the video is a drill where there are blocking/intercepting (Gou Lou Cai Gua), siezing, striking, and takedown methods involved. It can and should be drilled in a 2 Men format. I can't say the same applies to the Taizu clips as it is shown. Of course, everything is possible in Kung Fu. ;) So....

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Yum Cha]

Yes indeed, welcome to the new, and very insightful members of this discussion, and thank you for your effots and valuable contributions.

Can someone confirm for me, Sanjin/Sanchen is a form, or is it a concept, like hei gung? I have a bit of trouble following the canto, mandarin and now I suspect Fuijan(?) dialects...

Thanks.

-------

That last video posted by Mufahok Babulien is indeed the 'loose" power that I personally so highly prize. What interests me considerably is the use of both arms in unison as opposed to the "tearing paper" concept of alternate forward and backward use of arms, as exhibited in the video posted by Mantis108.

It reminds me of the higher level Pak Mei forms - Gau bo twi and Sub Batt Mor que - foundations. At face value you could easily conclude a family relationship.

Concerning the manifestation of power, Mufahok said:
"IMHO, keeping hard and not being able to translate that into dynamic energy is not something you want. Conversely, you cannot stay soft throughout a fight.

It’s the interplay and timing that make a good fighter."

Yes, the interplay is the key in my opinion too. What I think I am discovering from this thread is that there are several different ideologies that come to the same conclusion, once again. It just nice to see it from within a more narrow pedigree.

-------------

We've talked about the 4 feelings? Are these 'touches" or are they "spiritual"?
In Pak Mei we train both, and I wonder if they are likewise part of our evolution, or part or our Cheung Lai Cheun heritage.

Cheers

[Mufahok]

Mantis108,

Thank you for your sharing and yes, a warm welcome to Evert, a tireless seeker.

• I am not sure which line of WuZhu you got in mind. In my part of the world. WuZhu, is more or less, splintered into 2 camps. Don’t wish to delve into the present days politics except that these 2 provide an interesting case-study for researchers of Southern Boxing. The Kan’s line, imho, resembles Fuzhou Crane in numerous ways. The SanJin could be easily taken for Kan’s WuZhu. Interesting to note that this line of WuZhu also does entire Fujian BiaHe sets intact. The 5 elements component is also something you would find in Chee Kee Tong’s WuZhu. Yes, you are right that this SanJin is a cut away from the other SanZhans. But the critical principles are almost identical. The overall appearance is “softer” than most Sanchin and I think this is owing to inclusion of “internal” ideologies. I would go as far as saying that original Whooping Crane is the best platform to view the amalgamation of Fujian BaiHe and internal arts. The push-hands used in this system reminds one of Tai Chi and some 2 men drills look very Hsing-I like An Shen Pao for example.

• I love your perspective of FuHok. This happens to be my perception too in many ways. FuHok to me is Tiger, Crane and Luohan. However, your vision of FuHok being part Sanjin and BabuLien is very refreshing. Can’t say I notice that before because I don’t really know FuHok that well.


• A Goju form, to me, that suggest ties with MingHe is maybe “Tiensho”. Uncertain because I don’t do Goju and don’t have the inside story of this kata. Did read someplace that “Tiensho” could be fashioned after an older form called “Rokkishu”. I don’t understand what this mean but it sure sounds like “6 hands” in Fuzhou dialect. Some Fuzhou crane friends told me that there were writings alluding to a “6 hands” form. The Fuzhou name of that form was “Lurk Par Chiu” supposedly the form that spawned “BaBuLien”.

• Thank you for your details about White Lotus. I do have quite a bit of materials on this subject matter and maybe it’s time to revisit.

Thank you.

[Weito]

Hello Gentlemen,

Thank you for the warm welcome. Sometimes, some moments a discussion like this is able to shoot some fruit. I know we are keeping in, but can imagine why. One day .…….

Yum Cha: I know both GBT as well as SPMK. You speak of higher level forms. The question still remains if this is the fact. For that you need to observe the ingredients and concepts. Like in many model cars today, the engine is the same while the outside change every year. Exactly what the customer love to gets, he can get. Variations of a same concept?

Four Feelings in Pak Mei? Not done in the branch of Jie Kon Siew or Lee Sai Keung. Although I can imagine that you are talking about a ‘special spirit’. This ‘sat’ is essential and dominant, again I can only speak of the lineage I belonged in the past. Four Feelings is a model in which you are able to channel/mobilize energy towards a certain direction. Or maybe I should say, being able to get the maximum out of the system.

Everything is Heikung. An act between mind – body – breath, in any modus. For me Saam Tzien is a unique system able to (fine) tune the engine. You can see, it feel it and hear it. These three levels are essential, and what I believed some styles emphasized this. Heaven Stage, Human stage and Earth stage. Harmonizing these three stages will lead to the final result. By the way, this is a version done in some Southern Tai Chor branches.

Jik Pu, or Chit Pu Piao Tse, also known in Jie Kon Siews lineage as Lai Chit Pu (Hakka dialect) covers the highest concepts/ skills of Pak Mei Pai. Look to the engine, ingredients, and meaning and quality’s of skill. Learned that form 30 years ago, and still are fascinated by the design and its relation to the mother of all (Southern) forms….

My excuse for the side stepping. My love for PMP is still very deep.

Warm regards,

Evert.

[Mufahok]

Yum Cha,

Found this in Wilkipedia :-

“Best known by its Japanese name, Sanchin is a martial arts training routine (Japanese: kata) of Fujianese (south China) origin that is considered to be the core of several styles, the most well-known being the Goju Ryu and Uechi Ryu styles of Karate as well as the Chinese martial arts of Fujian White Crane, Five Ancestors, and the Tiger-Crane Combination style associated with Ang Lian-Huat. Tam Hon taught a style that was called simply "Saam Jin" ("Sanchin" in Cantonese). The name Sanchin, meaning three battles, is sometimes interpreted as the battle to unify the mind, body, and spirit; there are other interpretations of it, however.
The Sanchin routine uses only its namesake stance and is carried out with controlled breathing (ibuki breathing)- only half exhilation so that you never fully exhale. Inhalation and exhalation are performed in unison with the various blocking and striking movements. In the most commonly taught versions, emphasis is placed on the tension of the practitioners' muscles, and movement of the body as a solid, stable unit, with only the moving part relaxing a little. The Chinese and Uechi-Ryu version uses open hands while other Japanese versions tend to use closed fists. Certain schools of Five Ancestors kung fu, most noticeably those hailing from the Chee Kim-Thong lineage, employ minimal tension during execution. This is intended to facilitate the correct training of qi (or ki).”

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Generally, the above is how SanChin is described by both Kung Fu and Karate.

The part about “qi” is common in Fuzhou Cranes.

One other ideology that is omitted is ying and yang or hard and soft energies. I was taught that Heaven, Earth and Man symbolize the 2 contrasting energies within a man. The battles refer to ying/yang and man’s management of the energies.

So is 3 battles a form or concept? I think it’s both. Started out as a concept and the way I was taught, this idea goes back to Shaolin.

Embodied in forms and here, imho, we should really consider Tai Zhu as the forerunner. Subsequently went on to become focus of many styles albeit in different forms and shape. Like you rightly mentioned, the core of 3 battles is relatively the same, only the outward appearances vary.

Imho, I think Steel Wire Boxing and MingHe took a slightly different course. The concept of energies training and chi mobilization also took on additional triggers. In TSK, we got the emotion triggers and MingHe uses “sounds”.

Interesting that both should have Shaolin or more precisely, Shaolin Luohan connections. So if we follow this trail, it stands to reason that somewhere in Shaolin Luohan we should be able to see Sanchin concepts with triggers in action.

Evert, one question for you; what is the role of TSK in the grand design of Hung Kuen. Or put it in other words; why is TSK so “different” from the other Hung Kuen forms and better yet, why is this form considered the pinnacle of Hung Gar Kuen?

Thank you.

[Shaolin Master]

Been away for a few days so here goes:

Great to see how a discussion on San butui leads into the essence of hakka dongjiang and fujian styles.


Mufahok,

Fojiapai Luohanquan is actually reference to grandmaster Shi Gaocan's Luohanquan popular in nanyang (sth east asia Sing/Mal/Indo etc). The 'tk' link you posted if you read it outlines this, if you go to remarks section it makes reference to me as I was a member of that branch as well as the existing mainland one in Fuzhou.

YumCha,

Confirmation as per your request. Sanzhan is a form/set. It is also the developer of the concept/power/qigong etc....

Hequan's jing is conceptually different to Baimei in the sense of directive (your tearing thing..). Fujian sanzhan is maternal its practice really just assists in all the various powers but can be more expansive rather than directive.

General,

Luohanquan's expressions are based on the advanced Luohanying methods whereby various luohan contain differing attributes. Not limited to the 4 emotions.

Taizuquan contains various zhan as does wuzu, with sanzhan at their core. Tian,Di,Ren are contained as separate forms in such zhan. However the principle of Sanzhan whereby the three zhan are actually conquering tian,di, ren also stands conceptually.

In terms of Hong jia (hung ga): I was fortunate enough to visit Fuqing's shaolin Temple and surrounding areas in 2003. It is from all the way up there that the Hongjia is said to find the origin. Which would mean that the association with Yongfu Huzunquan (or Yongtai nowadays) has bearing. Noting that the existant fuzhou luohanquan are also of that area. So the possibility of assimilating Hequan as it heads southward is all a very plausible approach.

Fujian's Minbei consist typically of stiffer methods (Luohan, Huzun, Jinggang etc) whilst the south Minnan are generally softer or more pliable (Hequan, houquan etc..) or soft within hard.

In Ruian ( another of my travels; a small town south of Wenzhou, Zhejiang) the arts there were also tremendously stiff with similar sound generation to our Luohan and Huzunquan. So a relationship was evident.

Linhe's Jiubutui as a derivative of Sanbutui and Zhang Lichun's Zhibu as an extraction of Jiubutui.

[Mufahok]

Shaolin Master,

Thanks for the clarification.

I know that style by its earlier moniker – Shaolin Er Fan Kung Fu or Shaolin 2nd Chamber Kung Fu.

So could you enlighten us on the Lohan from Ven Sek.

Thank you for all your contributions.

Makes this thread very exciting..

[Shaolin Master]

My friend that would deviate from this thread. So if you'd like to commence a specific thread on the topic and preferably with a specifc question/topic that would be of benefit.

There is no Sanzhan set per se in Shigong Gao Can's Luohanquan, it is really a taizuquan core. Shigong Miaoyue's Taizuquan is very much based on it.

Slight note re: your wikpedia post which I did not see until now:

Uechi Ryu is based on Huzunquan of Zhou Zihe and Goju Ryu of Minghequan of Xie Zhongxiang.

Regards
Wu Chanlong

[mantis108]

First thank you all for the great inputs and open exchange, it's great to have such quality of discussion going on. I appreciate all the responses and I will try to respond to all of them but first we need to go back to the San Zhan for a little bit.

San Zhan (three battles) is generally thought of and accepted as the battles between the body, mind and spirit; hence, the name three battles. Indeed as human, we face constant struggles of the physical, mental, and emotional realms. Early masters of Kung Fu are mystics who undertood this very well and they designed Kung Fu systems and subsequently the forms that hold the key to enlightenment. San Zhan is such a form that derived from an important concept San Zheng (3 propers) which is based in the principles of San Bu Jiu Hou (3 corpus and 9 regions) that is found in the "internal classic of Yellow Emperor".

San Zheng basically means the proper alignment of the 3 corpus - the head, the hands and the foot. This concept in turn governs our human forms be it phyiscal or metaphyiscal and give them shape (a perspective) so that we can lift not only our spirits but also others who "witness" this transformation that happened wthin us (both the exponent/observer and audience).

Through the mental concentration and specific breathing pattern, we manipulate the delicate balance of Yin (blood) and Yang (Qi). This is known as Qi Xi (movement of breath). By the precise physical movements via deliberate designs, we encourage the change and exchange of Gang Rou (specifically the vessels and meridians). This is known as Shen Xi (movement of Qi within the body). We can also capitalize on the spatial-temporal relationship or simply the emotional rising and falling to express the concept of Xu (empty) Shi (full). This is San Zhan as a form is designed to achieve - the expression of constant struggle between the 2 archtypical attributes of heaven, earth and human.

The understanding of Yin Yang, Gang Rou, and Xu Shi allows the Kung Fu exponent to fully develop Dian (pin point target striking), Da (smashing and knocking), Shuai (throwing and takedown) and Na (siezing and controlling).
Indeed the concept of San Zheng that became the anatomy of pugilism go far beyond conditioning of the body. Chin Na, a profounded skill, which encompasses dividing the sinews, displacing the bone, disrupting the circulations, and sealing the breath can not be done without an indept insight and understanding of Yinyang, Gangrou, Xushi that is essentially human anatomy from an ancient Chinese anatomy perspective. It is believed that a Chinese Ch'an Buddhist monk brought this knowledge to Japan and inspired the dawning of Tai Jitsu (body skills) and possibly Ju Jitsu (Rou Shu in Chinese and literally fluid skills). If we look at Chin Na, Ju Jitsu, which gave birth to Judo, which then gave birth to Brazilian Ju Jitsu, we all see the use of San Zheng (ie joint locks techniques are divided into 3 categories working against the 3 corpus) that embodied the knowledge of San Bu Jiu Hou at work.

Kung Fu is classical studies expressed in combative form. San Zhan as a form is in fact deeply rooted in the classical studies of Chinese.

Mantis108

[Mufahok]

Gentlemen,

This “Hua San Lun Chien” is humbling indeed; In front of me, I see so many taller mountains!

Shaolin Master, points taken. Mainstream Shaolin don’t have a SanZhan form or routine per se. Since we are looking beyond forms and into mechanics and I was taught that SanZhan did develop out of LuoHan; zooming into LuoHan here might not be improper. A case of “starting at the beginning” if I may…

Ven. Sek’s LuoHan ,imho, is possibly the best place to start this examination. I think the fact that Ven Sek’s followers were requested to contribute to the “Nan Shaolin” portion of the “Shaolin encyclopedia” published by mainland must indicate the authenticity and integrity of that system to some level.

Interesting to note also that even “LuoHan Men”, generally viewed as a “Northern” system, also talks heavily about TunToFoChen; we are all convergent that this is a primary philosophy defining SanZhan.

So my friend, no wish to deviate but perhaps, accentuate (LuoHan fathering SanZhan forms) a little.

In the course of travel in China, did you ever meet any of Zhou Ji Her (fu quan) descendents? First hand experience of this style? I got with me a Fuzhou “Tiger Crane SanZhan” that I shall be posting soon. Just need to clean up the files a little. Possibly it’s just me but this version looks almost “Uechi” to me.

Maybe this is just coincidence but according to the “BaiHe Family Tree Chart” published in Taiwan, a “Zhou Ji Her” is listed as a MingHe boxer.

Interesting that you should say Goju Karate is linked to MingHe. I know this is the conception made popular in recent years by western researchers and now Ruan Dong.

Your views?

Pardon me if I am deviating a little now. But still, if we on the “Origin and Evolution” of SanZhan, looking at Karate is still in the same park.

Thank you for all your guidance.

[Yum Cha]

Thank you all for catching me up on SanChen (3 battles). On a side note, the wikipedia seems to have more and more information these days that I would never expect to find.

So, I'm coming to a few conclusions at this point:

The concept of man, heaven, earth (the trinity that so often arises in chinese philosophy) and the relationship to the coordiantion of the body, emotion and spirit seems to be a common thread that starts with this older White Crane and carries through to the Pak Mei Jek bo and SPM Sam bo jin, and even possibly to Wing Chun fundamentals, I speculate.

Likewise, the concept of different "touches" or "Feelings" (tactile, not emotive) is a common concept. Pak Mei has the "8 hands" mantis mentioned the 4: "Dian (pin point target striking), Da (smashing and knocking), Shuai (throwing and takedown) and Na (siezing and controlling)" And I'll speculate there is a similar construct in SPM. I think herein lies the different ways of using the power, as in the "solid" or "whipping" applications.

Emotional feelings, what I probably mistakenly call "shen" (spirit?) provides a common thread as well. The SanChen seems to be more developed, Pak Mei seems to focus more on a rage, SPM includes ancestor possession. There seems to be a common relationship to the concept of full and empty, rise and fall, which comes back to Ton To chum fau. One thing I often caution students to understand is that it is not 4 powers, but two SETS of power. Each finds strength with its partner greater than the sum of the parts. Emotional and spiritual energy is keyed with breathing as well as concentration, like most meditative conditions.

Where I see dissonance is in the breathing, however I'm probably just not well enough informed to see the commonality. One breath per move versus regular breathing dissassociated from any individual movement. Or the squeezing out of breath across several movements if you will. I'm puzzeled by the concept of inhaling and exhaling at the same time.

Also, what I am getting from the historical discussions, which I'm not really well enough informed to follow intimately, is that there seems to be a question of the relationship of this line to the accepted "northern shaolin" louhan.

I have always felt that this style or pedagree was so significantly different that it must have an alternative origin, which is often attributed to the debatably mythical Southern Shaolin temple, but in reality is more likely simply better classified as Hakka family style.

Wieto,
Thanks for your insight and comments on Pak Mei from your lineage, which to my understanding is one of the most "Hakka" oriented of broader family. Hopefully my previous post addressed some of the points you raised in my direction. I agree with you about Jik Bo, Chik Bo, or Lai Chik Bo, the essential form of Pak Mei.

Somebody once asked me about the "secret" Chi Gung of Pak Mei, and I told them it was Jik Bo, a conclusion I am now even more comfortable holding, based upon this discussion. Within simplicity we can discover the greatest magnitude.

As a side note, our style does it slightly different to the main stream, in that we do the Bu jie from a side stance, than punch to a forward stance, and grab in the forward stance, than shift back to the Bui Jie in the side stance. I have only ever seen other schools do it in a constant forward stance. Mantis108 raised a point about the prevelance of the different stances relating back to Hung Kuen, It made me wonder, but I don't see a direct relationship?

Shaolin Master
I like your terminology, maternal vs directive. I have always viewed Gau Bo Twi and Sub baat Mor que as primarially maternal, while developing slightly different energies between the two, and Jik Bo as having the simplified concentration of both, depending on what you find and what you can put into it. Thus I refer to them as "higher level" whereas maternal seems to be a much more accurate term.

Sometimes people talk about chi gung and internal energies and I don't really know what to make of it, because it often sounds like superstition or self hypnosis, however on this level it is very applicable and tangible. I think we can all agree that it is the product of a significant effort.

[Weito]

A new morning, beautiful replies, a resembling that Chinese Traditional Martial Arts is far from death. Although becoming a minority, it is a nice feeling that it is still there, spread all around the world…

Quote: Shaolin Master; “It is also the developer of the concept/power/qigong etc”....

The role of TSK for Hung is enormous, yet TSK is not Hung. IMHO TSK has been used as a foundation to build a new system of Hung Kuen. I believe that Wong Fei Hung was the main architect behind the building. He was not able to finish that job and Lam Sai Wing finished it all. Grandmasters after Lam Sai Wing changed the building (both inside as outside) to keep it competitive and interesting for practitioners. What I mean is that there came more variation in between the branches as seen nowadays.

Personally I see TSK as the foundation, the engine of the system. In many Hung Kuen schools it take many years to start learning TSK. A shame because we believe – like the Hakka Arts and Fukien Arts – that you can not start too early with exploring ‘the drive’ of an art. Saam Tzien, Chit Pu, TSK are such systems. Easy to learn, a lifetime to polish. Suddenly we all will notice that there is ‘spirit’ in the art. A skill hardly seen today…


Breathing:

Breathing skills can change the state of body and/ or mind. Sounds/ tones are able to channel energy from several levels in the body. Tension and relaxation (and all its variations) have so an impact on the flow of blood. Several styles make use of ‘sneezing’ power, others are more based on trapping, manipulating and sending the blood to specific regions for stimulation or prevention. In all processus the mind (image) body and breath should cooperate in harmony.
As I said the way of expression (explosively or holding in) depends upon the specific purpose of that set. I think that both versions of Saam Tzien were touched in previous replies.

I have seen Saam Tzien forms in which the expiration are divided in several portions (Lau). Although the movement as slow and powerful, the breathing were divided in short explosive portions. From a distance, hard to notice, but there were short explosive contractions in the body too. This advanced player showed that Big circles became ‘hardly visible’ circles/ contractions.

Yumcha, I fully agree with your statement Chi Kung/ Hei Kung. The same one as wasting words about Internal vs External. Mostly it is our lack of understanding, and the ‘will’ to understand and classify things. But at the end of the path we are all talking about the same mountain, with the same top. Only the experiences of the journey will differ per practitioner, no matter which style you did practice.


[Quote: Yu Cha]: I have only ever seen other schools do it in a constant forward stance. Mantis108 raised a point about the prevalence of the different stances relating back to Hung Kuen, It made me wonder, but I don't see a direct relationship?

Robert is correct, we (for instance) execute Biu Tji in both forward as side-wards skill, in Tit Sin Kuen. The roots of our TSK is from ‘Duen Kiu, Jaak Ma’ origin, or Narrow Horse short bridge. While the common mainstream of Lam Sai Wing TSK is from ‘Cheung Kiu Daai Ma”. As Robert pointed out correctly, there are several versions of TSK, some very close to Saam Tzien. The reason I started to research an eventual relationship between TSK, Hakka and Fukien martial arts, was because of my experiences and observations in the three areas. The last reply of Robert about Saam Jing is a very acceptable one, that need a more contemplative observation.

Warm regards,

Evert

[Shaolin Master]

Mantis108,

Nice disposition on Sanzhan much appreciated.

MuFahok,

Ok. GM Gaocan's Luohan has two disparate components:

In the first (Outer) it is the practice of Yi Zhimei, Luohanquan, Fuhuquan, etc and common throughout SE Asia and their descendants.

The second (Inner) commences with the practice of Fuhu Luohan, Xianglong Luohan and others sometimes referred to as Shengong of which typically only few components were passed.

In truth, the elements of sanzhan are existent in such methods, however since GM Gaocan practiced Wuzu, Houquan etc as well. It is difficult to know whether they were there in the Luohan or added later. Since many methods such as 20 fists, Sanjiao etc common to taizu/wuzu are found in GM Gaocan's teachings allbeit differently ordered.

The inclusion of Yizhimei into Deqian's encyclopedia is because many of our uncles (i.e. other disciples of GM Gaocan) were some of the earliest lay disciples of Dechan, Suxi and Deqian. Also note that Hongjia's Gongzifuhu is also there.

Luohan does emphasise Sanzheng deeply in its methods as per M108's post except it is head, body (not hands) and feet.

Sanzhan is also noted as three main outcomes:
1. Lien Gong 2. Qi Gong 3. TuntufouchunFa and also noted as follows:
"San Zheng, San Jin,San Zhan"

In terms of Zhou Zihe, he was basically a martial arts prodigy and in his short lifetime had mastered many of fujian's treasures. Although Huzunquan was his strength he had also mastered the old Niu Fa(Cow), Ji Fa(Rooster), He Fa (Crane), Hou Fa (Monkey), Quan Fa (Dog) etc.... After having studied Huzunquan with Wu Jianhua a descendant of Zhou branch. When I was in Fuqing and Yongtai, the masters of Huzunquan descendants of Li branch had a lot more content and the style is very deep indeed.

Regarding the Minghe, well it is only because Xie Zhongxiang is acknowledged as founder of Minghe and the Japanese Goju practitioners identify them in their lineage that the connection is made. Not for any stylistic resemblances as the goju style has long become very okinawan/japanese which dictates its method as opposed to the chinese way of natural evolvement.

Yumcha,

In Luohanquan the expression of emotion and the overcoming of is the comprehension of power manifestation. Its manifestation in Baimei with my limited experience is quite different.

Kind Regards

Wu Chanlong

[Mufahok]

Just posted another clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5D5TLjPcNE

This is a short intro clip from a Crane friend in Singapore.

This friend is currently one of the leaders of his Fuzhou Crane. He belongs to a Fuzhou group that does not only the 4 sub-cranes forms but also forms that are unique to themselves.

I think this clip includes MingHe (Whooping), ShuHe (Hibernating) and ZhongHe (Ancestral) forms.

Hope this clip adds to our discussion so far.

Got an entire collection from him recently that includes different Sanchins and forms from Flying Crane. Just need his okay to post for public viewing.

Thank you.

[FunkySage]

The practice of Sanchin and body conditioning prove inexorably
entwined and remain the heart and soul of Uechi-Ryu, Goju-Ryu, Isshin-Ryu and other traditional Okinawan martial arts systems. Proponents of these styles contend that there is no karate without Sanchin and there is no Sanchin without proper body conditioning. The practice of Sanchin promotes superior stability, mobility, economic movement, and explosive generation of power through efficient structural alignment of bones, tendons, and muscles. Such practice also provides the prototype of all movements of deflection. Additionally, correct structure and Sanchin shime (testing) trains practitioners to properly accept, absorb and redirect the inevitable blows of real fighting. The root of all conditioning is found in Sanchin shime . Sanchin shime also educates the practitioner in mushin (“nomind”). The development of mushin intrinsically supports the application of martial arts to real-life combat scenarios. Shime provides practitioners the opportunity to discipline the mind so that it may remain calm in the midst of furious action.Without the development of mushin, practitioners will likely be unable to progress successively to advanced levels of training. Without a foundation in mushin, concepts such as shibumi (poise) and maii (distancing) may be
forever lost to the trainee.


Sanchin-dachi is utilized extensively in performing many of the exercises described herein. This stance is one of the oldest Kamae (postural structures) within the martial arts and is found in many karate styles and most Fukien based southern Chinese Gung-Fu styles. Proper lower body posture may be achieved by:

• standing with feet at approximately shoulder width with the knees slightly bent,

• adducting toes (point in toward the groin) at an approximate 30 degree angle,

• pivoting on the ball of one foot (which becomes the rear foot) so that it is oriented with toes straight to the front,

• stepping forward with the other in a semi-circular fashion making sure to foot glide along the floor, and

• posting the front foot in an adducted position such that the heel is on a line parallel with the toes of the rear foot Proper upper body posture is characterized by the following

criteria:
• shoulders should be sunken (relaxed),

• chest empty (following the lead of the back),

• back straight,

• head lifted as though suspended from a string (which tucks the chin) ,

• waist stable to connect the upper and lower parts of the body, and buttocks tucked slightly to aid in straightening the spine, and elbows sunken to protect the flanks.

Thanks again to everyone for their input and exchange. I must say I do find this enlightening and I wish I only knew more to contribute to the discussion.

Both selected quotes above are taken from an article on uechi-ryu by Elkins, De Donato and Morenski (2000) and speak with regards to Sanchin in uechi ryu. Much of it is very familiar sounding to me as I am sure it will be to you. More than a definite hint of a link.

[Mufahok]

“A shame because we believe – like the Hakka Arts and Fukien Arts – that you can not start too early with exploring ‘the drive’ of an art.”

Evert,

Beg to differ here. Cannot say much for Hakka (not that familiar) but in most Fujian/Fuzhou styles, Sanzhan is everything.

Cannot remember the number of schools I visited and see “Start everything with SanZhan and seek real Kung Fu in SanZhan” couplets hanging from the wall.

Not lip service. These schools make SanZhan the focal point of their training.

Like you said; lifelong polishing.

Warm Regards.

[FunkySage]

Mu Fa Hok, its the same in SPM, sarm bo jin is everything.

To add more to this discussion a further question, is there more than one level of sanzhan?

[Weito]

Mufahok,

Thank you very much for the short impression of the clips. I am deeply impressed about the manifested spirit, so different then I have seen so far. Softness, but also Geng expression is very refined. I was able to collect many versions of Crane expressions, truly up to a 100. But this compilation is from a different level. Again, my thanks for sharing this footages. Hopefully we will be able to meet one day and cross our hands.

My excuse for giving Saam Tzien not the correct spot, but I am not that familiar with Fukien Boxing arts. I only heard that Saam Tzien (in Tai Chor) can be played in three levels.

Tit Sin Kuen – as done in my family - do have more levels. One level is the expression of the eight manifestations, linked with specific emotional expressions/ sensations. The path towards this level is one of many years. Still this does not mean that TSK can not be taught in the beginning. In our family the art of Iron Wire Boxing is not fixed. It is the engine, a way to create a 16 valve engine.

My students express that – after learning TSK –other forms Hung forms got a boost. This looping go on and on, while the big circles becomes smaller, and the Geng reach a more refined level.

The methods and principles of TSK are very close to STK. I strongly belief that they shared roots.

Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen: I have problems with the idea that this form – as done in nowadays Hung branches – could have been done in other systems or districts. Although Siu Lam and Lo Han (Fut Ga ?) are dominantly there, it is a rather modern chorography, mostly a 100 years old. When I look closely to the ingredients of GJFFK, I notice a strong link of Cantonese skills in it, in the final choreography. Many Hung players do accept that the Fook Fu part is the oldest section of the set, with that I mean 100+ year old.

Thank you all,

Evert

[Mufahok]

“Ok. GM Gaocan's Luohan has two disparate components:

In the first (Outer) it is the practice of Yi Zhimei, Luohanquan, Fuhuquan, etc and common throughout SE Asia and their descendants.

The second (Inner) commences with the practice of Fuhu Luohan, Xianglong Luohan and others sometimes referred to as Shengong of which typically only few components were passed.”


Shaolin Master,

Sorry, really deviating here.

Have you heard of 1) Har San Hor (Tiger Descending Mountain) and 2) Lien Huay Koon (Lotus Fist) that is taught by some from Ven. Sek lineage?

Are you familiar with Huang Mei Ping of Nanyang Shaolin Pugilistics Association? Mei Ping was in China competing (sometime in the 80s) and was runner-up with “18 Bronze Man Fist”.

Heard of Sebastian Soh? He was (passed on a couple of years back) a student of Sifu Tan Choo Seng, another one of Ven. Sek students. Sifu Tan ran “Hua Tiong Pugilistic Club” in Katong Singapore.

Sebastian was thought of, by many, as one of the best Luohan Sifus of his generation. He used to teach in YMCA Palmer Road.

A pic of Soh http://www.acskarate.com/interact/data/yoda/2005214133755_newlohan-1.jpg

Thank you.

Ps : My apologies to those with no interest in the above. It’s just so hard to find anyone with experience related to Ven. Sek to talk to.

Sorry.

[Mufahok]

“That last video posted by Mufahok Babulien is indeed the 'loose" power that I personally so highly prize. What interests me considerably is the use of both arms in unison as opposed to the "tearing paper" concept of alternate forward and backward use of arms, as exhibited in the video posted by Mantis108.”

Yum Cha

Sorry for the deviation in my previous posts. Now to get back to subject proper:-

The “tearing paper” or “splitting” to use a more common terminology is done from the second form onwards in MingHe. This would be “BaBuLien” or “Eight Linked Steps”.

Often spoken as “the 2nd SanJin” by those in Fuzhou MingHe. I will try and post this form soon.

The “SanJin” form teach focus of energy derived from what we call the “earth” element i.e. the ground. Orthodox MingHe, like Mantis108, highlighted talked more about 5 elements concepts as opposed to ShiHe (Feeding Crane) or Dong Mu Yau (Fuzhou He) whereby each element is assigned a hand shape.

Beginners are taught to mentally picture this energy in the form of a ball and learning to move this “ball” up and down the body and thrusting this energy out with both hands.

This is very obvious in the SanJin 2 men drill that comes after learning the solo form. The teacher has to literally “touch hands” with every student to make sure that this is properly transmitted.

Correct me if I am wrong, you do many 2 men scrapping drills to get “Mo Kiu” right?

I think this is where Hakka and Fukien SanChin diverge a little. The emphasis for Hakka is more skewed towards developing strong bridge hands?

At Babulien level, 2 hands techniques are done in ying/yang combination. So instead of 2 either ying or yang hands, you do a pair of ying/yang combo.

This is more demanding; in the SanJin video clip posted, the Sifu started with 2 lifting (yang) palms. In Fuzhou this is call “poon chiu”.

In Babulien, you start with one hand lifting and the other pressing. “Poon Eg chiu” in Fuzhou. So energy in no longer sent out in unison but in a discordant manner.

Kind of like the “tearing” you described. This kind of energy is used in many techniques in the higher forms.

If you are familiar with Baji quan, think of this as similar to Baji’s “shearing”.

Tearing or splitting is also a major energy used in most MingHe qinna techniques.

Thank you.

ps the Babulien form you saw is from Fuzhou Ancestral Crane. Different from MingHe's Babulien.

[Lau]

Ls,

Making a step back to the original topic 3 step push. Pak Mei's nine step push is supposedly made up by doing the core of the 3 step push form 3 times making 3*3 = 9 step push. Especially after seeing Fuzhou Crane's BaBuLien I now wonder if there was a double handed push in the original 3 step push. Can any one confirm that?

Regards, Lau

[Crushing Fist]

How very interesting...

I always hesitate to comment but,


SD (which as we all know claims a southern chinese heritage) has a "San" form which has many similarities to those described and shown here.

San He Quan

which the older translation was given as San Njie or similar

this "form" which incorporates the controlled breathing and tension repeats the same set of three movements three times, finishing with a striking sequence and "release" of energy/tension.

It is one of the most central foundations of the art.

Now here is a question:

During the tension part of the form, the structure of the student is tested by sweeping, striking, and pushing.

Is this done in any of these other "San" training methods?

In English this form is often referred to as the Iron Man form, but has been translated as "three part form"

Any comments?

[Mufahok]

Hi,

Sorry, what’s “SD”?

Moving to the other part of your post;

Sanchin to train “iron body” or “iron shirt” is found in many styles including;

• Ngo Mui Pai. This Southern Fukien style left mainland and made Singapore home. Ngo Mui refers to Wu Mei; one of the 5 escapees of the Manchus burning of Southern Shaolin according to popular folklore. Very “hard” style emphasizing tough body conditioning using Sanchin methodology. Back in the late 70s/early 80s, Muhammed Ali (the boxer) visited Singapore. During part of his promo tour, he was invited to “chop” the throat of one such Ngo Mui players. The style got a little fame after this “performance”. Besides Singapore, Ngo Mui was also taught in Indonesia back in those days. Remember reading someplace that they have now spread westward to certain part of Europe. This style was led by the late GM Tan Shaw Koon.

• MingNam Tai Chor or Southern Grand Ancestor Boxing. Another southern style famous for “iron shirt” toughness. Training and test include taking kicks/hand strikes to many part of the body including the throat. Advanced students are tested with strikes using sticks and wooded log rammed into the mid torso.

• Many Karate styles also incorporate this kind of Sanchin conditioning in their training. Don’t know whether it’s still done but many Oyama karatekas were known to take baseball bats on their shinbones.

Thanks.

[Yum Cha]

“

Beginners are taught to mentally picture this energy in the form of a ball and learning to move this “ball” up and down the body and thrusting this energy out with both hands.

----> I know of this metaphore from my instruction in micro and macro cosmic orbit hei gung, "sui & di jau tin" but I think of that as something different to Pak Mei, more as a Daoist exercise. It has a lot in common with an indian meditation called "gundilini fire" (sp?). We visualise summonsing up a fireball from your dan tien, and spitting it out through your point of contact into your opponent, leaving nothing behind. This sounds like a fundamental difference.<-----

Correct me if I am wrong, you do many 2 men scrapping drills to get “Mo Kiu” right?

I think this is where Hakka and Fukien SanChin diverge a little. The emphasis for Hakka is more skewed towards developing strong bridge hands?

----> Yes, we do a number of "free form" scrapping drills to test the power and fluidity of combinations and the ability to deal with them on behalf of the partner. Yes, strong bridge hands are the first skill to develop, but likewise the sensitivity to capture and sok sau. The ability to choose/become smoke or iron bars. So I would conclude that the focus is not only on strong bridge, but definately includes it to a very significant extent.<------




Lau,
I have seen Jik Bo done in the "traditional" way, and likewise I have seen it converted into exercises that include additional techniques, including the double palm strikes. When I first learned it, the grab and pull was followed by the double palm push, and that was taught to me by the Yau Kung Mun Master Cheung Leung. He also made several other training versions as part of his practice.

I have been told that Jek bo was a training form for Gau Bo Twi as well, and it makes sense. As to what it was originally? I tend to think simpler as opposed to more complicated options.

[Shaolin Master]

Yum Cha/Lau,

Yes with Zhibu, there are few varieties including double push as well as grab and thrust, mo etc...

Mu Fahok,

Lianhua quan 莲花拳. yes
Xia Shan Hu ... I think we call it Meng Hu Xia Shan 猛虎下山 (Fierce Tiger descends mountain). so I would say maybe to that one.

We were associated with 少衆山 and 少雄山 predominantly.

Hua Zhong 华忠拳术健身学院 was one of the latter spurts off I think. Usually from more late batch of GM Gaocan's disciples.

Sebastion Soh I think was popular amongst the youths but not so much in mainstream Nanyang activities. I'd asked one of my friends in singapore but nowadays few can recall. From that pic he is definately one of the Luohan practitioners. I do not recollect Huang Meiping.

Where is your interest in these..have you practiced luohanquan before or is it just curiousity.

Kindest Regards
Wu Chanlong

[Mufahok]

Hi Shaolin Master,

I actually met quite a few Siao Lim folks in Singapore.

I knew Sebastian when he was teaching in Stevens Road Y. And later when he started his Clementi class, I visited a few times. During one of these visits, he did some incredible Lohan and something he called “Northern” YiZhiMei.

This man really got to be seen to be believed. His Lohan is really top-class. Honestly, have never met anyone since with his level of Lohan skill.

I met Mei Ping in a foot reflexology shop in People’s Park. The shop is owned by another Siao Lim Sifu. From him, I got a lot of details regarding early days training in Shuang Lim Si.

Also got acquainted with the late Sifu Chong Beng Joo – the “Iron Fist” of Siao Lim. Visited his class in SAFRA Toa Payoh and was deeply impressed by his no-nonsense Siao Lim training. I saw more sparring drills and sparring than forms.

Yes Siao Lim fascinates me. I collected, through friends, quite a bit of Siao Lim materials including anniversary performances videos etc.

No, I don’t do Lohan but my “research” encompasses Southern Lohan due to probable ties with BaiHe.

Thank you very much.

[WanderingMonk]

does someone have a clip of huzun quan in action?

thanks.

[Mufahok]

Sorry guys,

Got a little distracted in the “Ruan Dong” thread.

Got another clip here showing a portion of Fuzhou MingHe’s Ershiba or 28 steps. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thMcXdlk4h8

This clip should give you enhanced views of the “split” power usually seen at higher level MingHe training.

Thanks.

[samadhi_fire]

Hua Zhong 华忠拳术健身学院 was one of the latter spurts off I think. Usually from more late batch of GM Gaocan's disciples.

Sebastion Soh I think was popular amongst the youths but not so much in mainstream Nanyang activities. I'd asked one of my friends in singapore but nowadays few can recall. From that pic he is definately one of the Luohan practitioners. I do not recollect Huang Meiping.



Hi Shaolin Master,

FYI, Hua Tiong (Hua Zhong) was set up by Master Tan Choo Seng, disciple of GM Shi Gao Can. It's not a later spurt off.

Master Tan has recently retired and started teaching again. Hua Tiong also has a very strong presence in Johor Bahru. Cheers.

[Shaolin Master]

Samadhi_fire,

I understand and thanks but note the reference to establishment period:

e.g: earlier
1955 Siau Hong San
1956 Siau Tiong San
1958 Siew Tin San
etc.....

Latter
1966 Hua Tiong
1967 Siow Chong San


"Latter" meaning as in established after 1960 (i.e after Ven Sek left), per the above in terms of when commenced.

All are one family so .....

Thanks
Wu Chanlong