Why is this not Understood?

[Jared1211]

I want to know why so many martial artists of hard styles don't understand why Southern Mantis can't be used in it's traditional way. It is understood to me why this is. I'm asking why they can't understand this. It is simply because we are using our hands in ways you can't in MMA. They say it is useless not to be able to use it for trophies. I wish it would be understood that I don't get a belt or trophies in SPM, but it is far from useless. The style uses Chi and they can't develop Chi through a glove can they?

[TenTigers]

"The moon is not affected by the baying of wolves";)

[Wong Ying Home]

that is a good one indeed ! Very cool Ten Tigers:D

[B-Rad]

I've seen Southern Mantis used in sport fighting (some kind of continuous medium contact point fighting). It worked pretty well, and though he didn't win under this rule set, it looked to me like he was the better fighter. His fighting even looked exactly like you see in their form work.

Why can't chi go through a glove? And if there's a reason this is a problem, why can't you send chi through your feet, knees, or elbows?

[Hung Fist]

Gung fu is a way of life not a way of belts and trophies .MMA sucks anyway.:p

[Jared1211]

That really was a good answer. I always loved MMA as someone who didn't have any MA training and now that I'm training SPM, I think MMA is pointless. I am not training it so I can win trophies or have belts. I'm learning it because I really love martial arts. Most of the MMA fighters I've talked to are all fighting to be the best or whatever. That is ridiculous to me because no matter how good you are, there is always a style that will beat you. It's not so much I care that alot of people talk about styles like this in a bad way, I just wish I could understand not, at least, appreciating the style.

[David Jamieson]

a man who has not tasted bitter cannot know sweet.


(tt you ain't got the corner on fortune cookie wisdom round hyar :p but that was a perfect response lol )

[SiuHung]

Someone please explain in detail why SPM won't work in mma or under a similar rule set?
Sounds like an excuse for lack of experience. It's just plain silly to say that any CMA can only be used for fighting but not competition, mma, or whatever.:)

[David Jamieson]

Someone please explain in detail why SPM won't work in mma or under a similar rule set?
Sounds like an excuse for lack of experience. It's just plain silly to say that any CMA can only be used for fighting but not competition, mma, or whatever.:)

exzachary.

any martial art, provided it is more than ritualistic dance can be adapted to fit an mma venue.

If it's got punches, kicks throws and holds, you can make it fit.

If you can't make it fit, you don't have kungfu there. You have something else...:p

[gabe]

exzachary.

any martial art, provided it is more than ritualistic dance can be adapted to fit an mma venue.

If it's got punches, kicks throws and holds, you can make it fit.

If you can't make it fit, you don't have kungfu there. You have something else...:p


Sorry, I disagree. There are plenty of excellent fighters, boxers and grapplers, who I think wouldn't do well in mma competitions. However, I know that they are not at all pushovers on the street. MMA is a specialization. To succeed, you must maximize and take advantage of every aspect of the rules and ring. You have to know what scores well with judges, in case you go to a draw. You must know what time limits you train within. It's an art in and of itself that not just any fighter off the street, no matter how good he is, can walk into. If he focus's on things outside the ruleset or outside the biases of the sport, he will not succeed in competition. If you don't train as the typical MMAst's train, I doubt you will do well in their arena.

There is a whole other world out there. No hocus pocus or mysticism. Not "too deadly." But extremely effective on the street. This does not mean that what is effective in the ring is not effective in the street. Anything can work, if executed properly, in the street. Hell, if you are good at it, you have an extra ordinary chance of making it work. But the reverse is not true. Not everything that would be very useful on the street is appropriate for the ring. And as the ring gets more popular, and martial arts evolve along with the rulesets, many of useful techniques will simply cease to exist.

On the subject of gloves, if you train so hard to be effective with them on, why train any of the hand conditioning and hand formations and techniques that the gloves don't allow? Please, don't even bother telling me that those things aren't useful and no, many are not "too deadly." But if you are training to win the UFC, why would you bother with them? You wouldn't. You'd focus only on the things that help you win.

[David Jamieson]

so..uh, what exactly are you disagreeing with then?

[MAC]

.. i see where you lose many elements of the style and techniques when you have to follow rules and wear equipment.


(..and I just wanted to show my new sig line !)


"The moon is not affected by the baying of wolves" - TenTigers 6/29/06

[David Jamieson]

.. i see where you lose many elements of the style and techniques when you have to follow rules and wear equipment.


(..and I just wanted to show my new sig line !)


"The moon is not affected by the baying of wolves" - TenTigers 6/29/06

you follow rules to learn a style don't you?
when you spar in your club, do you go as hard as mma? do you try to poke eyes?
do you wear gear when you spar or do you train to pull all your punches before contact?

all im saying is that if you can't take your basics into a competitive format then there is something askew with the basics you have.

making style wars between mma v this or that is fruitless. If you want to compete in a more soft venue that's as cool as those who wish to take it up a notch.

sanda/sanshou can be just as brutal as any bloodsport although there is definitely less ground work going on, but how is that not "stupid" as some people indicate that mma is?

mma is what it is. Kungfu can totally step up to it and make it's way into the competitions and the kungfu guy who trains for that venue will do as well as his training and his will allows him.

that is all

[gabe]

so..uh, what exactly are you disagreeing with then?


"any martial art, provided it is more than ritualistic dance can be adapted to fit an mma venue."

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but this seems to imply that any decent martial artist can enter a mma venue and do well, provided they punch, kick, etc. And I disagree, because I see MMA fighting as being very specialized for that venue. In many situations, you have to throw out a lot of useful things in your art to focus on what helps you win. Then you're art changes to be more of a MMA approach, which is unique in and of itself. It's not "adapted" but wholly changed. Many will argue that it is changing for the better, and evolving for the better- but I see a lot of loss not dictated by degree of efficacy, but by trends in the sport.

In watching the Winky Wright fight with Taylor. Winky did not win for a number of reasons, but the one I hear often is that his defensive skills (considered one of the best defensive fighters) did not impress the judges as much as Taylor's power, even if those power punches had no effect. Should Winky change his style? If he wants to win more matches, wouldn't you coach him to do that? Even if nobody seems to be able to land an effective punch through his defense?

A simplistic analysis, I know, but just illustrating a simple point.

Merryprankster brought up the point that if you changed matches such that you needed a pin to win, the guard would cease to exist. Is the guard ineffective as a technique? No, but in this hypothetical sporting match, it would be useless. So why train it? How would a BJJer adapt? What if the BJJer didn't care about MMA comps? What if he did? How would he train accordingly? What wouldn't he train?

Just a thought.

Sorry, just saw your last post.
Again, I disagree, you can't win a MMA match with just basics against that level of competition. You have to train like them to win against them. So if kung fu people want to win, they have to a large degree, wholeheartedly join MMA. Within the same rulesets, everybody will eventually look the same.
Now, there is that whole other world I mentioned. Where a nonMMA ist can train very effectively for fighting but still not be successful for the ring. And an excellent MMA may not be as effective on the street. No, I'm not stereotyping or generalizing or getting into the MMA vs. the street bs. Just being objective. If you train a certain way, that is how you will fight. Yes, a mma can use his ring skills and kick ass on the street. Obviously, basics and skills translate, but elite fighters or sports people focus depending on their goals- which dictate what goes into their bag of tricks.

[David Jamieson]

gabe-

my kungfu says that in life and death situation, I use whatever is available.
If I must pick up a stone and smash a skull, then that is what must be done. If I must turn a blade on someone, then that is what I must do. For real is for real and it's dirty so be dirty when you gotta be dirty.

but, any martial artist can train towards a competitive venue and succeed regardless of the art they pursue and still use the art and what it's brought them to compete in that venue.

whether it's a tag point match, san shou with gear or mma.

You telling me you don't have anough useful punches, kicks, throws, evasion in your style that you can't cherry pick a few of those and drill the crap out of them while building up endurance and strength to compete?

I think any martial art is capable of competing in a venue such as mma provides and one can be as viscious as the rules allow and still be a gentleman about it.

If you are training on a firing range, then no, you won't be training for an mma venue, but then if all you do is forms and lots of bowing while thinking about how a crane would defeat a tiger, then you're not really training for the street either are you? :)

anything that has punch, kick, throw, lock can be adapted to fight in the venue that is closest to reality which is mma.

If Kungfu clubs take the san shou a little further it will look same same and perhaps the skills displayed will be different but it all comes down to one on one conflict.

Kungfu belongs there as much as anything else really. after all it's martial art.

[gabe]

gabe-

then if all you do is forms and lots of bowing while thinking about how a crane would defeat a tiger, then you're not really training for the street either are you? :)

after all it's martial art.


Please, don't insult me. I am not one of those forms fairies strawmen tma'ers.

Nor am I going to spend much time arguing with you. I think you miss the finer points of fighting in this discussion. If I guy trains all his life to look for the pin, his muscle memory is so outstanding, his body will find that exact moment an opportunity exists and take advantage. You've got seconds to make that happen at that level of competition. You don't have that skill by screwing around with your basics a couple of hours a week. You might have good basics, but you will get your ass handed to you against an excellent grappler. Same with a boxer. Think you can jab or throw a punch? Go fight a boxer in a boxing match. Find out real quick how good your basics are. To win a boxing match, you've got to become a boxer. Same with MMA. Basics will not last you far at that level. At these levels, a punch isn't just a punch...

Every fighter is a victim of his own muscle memory.

[TenTigers]

I think what Gabe is saying about specific skills, muscle memory, etc is really the crux of the matter. I think we get into this argument toomuch and lose sight of the real facts. It's like arguing whether soccer is better or worse than rugby. The bottom line is, Pele' would lose in a rugby match unless hedeveloped the neccesary skill sets required to play at full potential, and visa versa. It becomes apple and oranges.
My Sifu said that at the highest level, it becomes anyone's game. It could be your day today, mine tomorrow. All it takes sometimes is that one shot that slipped in. You zigged when you should've zagged, and you're done.
Remember, it's not the art, but the fighter. All arts have their value, otherwise they wouldn't have survived the test of time.
Mo Lum Yat Ga.

[Pakmei7]

Interesting thread. As to the comments on balance; Pak Mei, done properly, should never lose balance.

As to the perception of the style being "jerky". That's a common observation for someone who doesn't study Pak Mei. I would suggest a better description would be "condensed".

As to flow; it depends on who you're watching and their experience, understanding, etc. Advanced students/ teachers/ masters have amazing flow. The problem is it's very unlikely you'll ever see them, especially in a video.

Cheers!

[SiuHung]

I think what Gabe is saying about specific skills, muscle memory, etc is really the crux of the matter. I think we get into this argument toomuch and lose sight of the real facts. It's like arguing whether soccer is better or worse than rugby. The bottom line is, Pele' would lose in a rugby match unless hedeveloped the neccesary skill sets required to play at full potential, and visa versa. It becomes apple and oranges.
My Sifu said that at the highest level, it becomes anyone's game. It could be your day today, mine tomorrow. All it takes sometimes is that one shot that slipped in. You zigged when you should've zagged, and you're done.
Remember, it's not the art, but the fighter. All arts have their value, otherwise they wouldn't have survived the test of time.
Mo Lum Yat Ga.


Not bad TT, this is something I can agree with.

Gabe, I'm not going to say your wrong, and I respect your choice to dissagree.

Here's how I see it:
The problem I see comes in when the "rules and equipment" card gets pulled. I may be mistaken but all CMA have their own way of addressing strikes, kicks, holds, and throwing/takedowns. Where's the problem? Usually it's with the instruction or the individual, rather than the system. Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees, and hold ourselves back. Sometimes the teacher doesn't have the relevant experience to guide the student in certain situations. I can admit that I'd be completely at a loss to train someone for a competition that included ground fighting...But that's because of my own lack of experience and skill rather than the fault of a system or ruleset.
I also beleive, anyone can, and should train with equipment. It can be a great tool for learning if understood, and allows us to train in ways that might otherwise be too dangerous for regular practice. Hand conditioning and specialized hand formations are great, and both have a place in personal development as well as competition. Heck, I love the footage of Bas Rutten using some devastating palm strikes in mma matches, cool stuff!

Also, who says anything about starting off in the UFC or in a sanctioned boxing match? Start smaller. Local amatuer events. Lie Tai tournaments. Arrange friendly competitions or matches with other schools or associates. Gaining experience is the key. Lack of practical experience will stunt the development of skill. And unless people are willing to go out and get into "real fights", most of which these days involve potential use of guns, there's really not too many ways other than competition to get experience. To sum it up, I don't at all agree that to beat a boxer you have to become a boxer, nor toe beat an mma person, you have to out mma them. You do have to train hard, be aware of the weapons they use, and learn how to apply your own.:)

[Lam Tong Long]

Why can't chi go through a glove? And if there's a reason this is a problem, why can't you send chi through your feet, knees, or elbows?

Can you make your blood leap outside your body with just thought? No.

Then why is chi any different? And you most certainly can direct chi to any part of your body.

See people tend to think of chi as being analogous to 'electricity' or 'energy' (ie. it can 'jump a gap'), when in fact it is more accurate to liken it with something like blood. It fills the body, moves around the body in cycles and can be forced into a specific part of the body with practice.

So much like the lymphatic system (which was denied in western medicine until relatively recently) the chi system will most likely one day be acknowledged by western science (and the acknowledgement has already begun ie. acupuncture) at which point the 'mysticism' will evaporate.

Hope that helps,

Jay

[Fu-Pow]

So much like the lymphatic system (which was denied in western medicine until relatively recently)
Jay

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[David Jamieson]

Please, don't insult me. I am not one of those forms fairies strawmen tma'ers.

Nor am I going to spend much time arguing with you. I think you miss the finer points of fighting in this discussion. If I guy trains all his life to look for the pin, his muscle memory is so outstanding, his body will find that exact moment an opportunity exists and take advantage. You've got seconds to make that happen at that level of competition. You don't have that skill by screwing around with your basics a couple of hours a week. You might have good basics, but you will get your ass handed to you against an excellent grappler. Same with a boxer. Think you can jab or throw a punch? Go fight a boxer in a boxing match. Find out real quick how good your basics are. To win a boxing match, you've got to become a boxer. Same with MMA. Basics will not last you far at that level. At these levels, a punch isn't just a punch...

Every fighter is a victim of his own muscle memory.

I have no idea why you take offence at what I'm saying. oh well.

[fiercest tiger]

MMA is kung fu, we have strikes kick, wretsling, throwing, takedowns, submissions, you need to learn all ranges in fighting as well weapons, etc. One must learn to adapt and stop spending too much time on forms! :P

[B-Rad]

Can you make your blood leap outside your body with just thought? No.

Then why is chi any different? And you most certainly can direct chi to any part of your body.

See people tend to think of chi as being analogous to 'electricity' or 'energy' (ie. it can 'jump a gap'), when in fact it is more accurate to liken it with something like blood. It fills the body, moves around the body in cycles and can be forced into a specific part of the body with practice.

So much like the lymphatic system (which was denied in western medicine until relatively recently) the chi system will most likely one day be acknowledged by western science (and the acknowledgement has already begun ie. acupuncture) at which point the 'mysticism' will evaporate.

Hope that helps,

Jay

Actually, I'm closer to agreeing with you than him (except maybe the "lymphatic system" part... I know zilch about medical history :p). The guy who started this thread seems to think he can shoot qi into people like a weapon, and I didn't understand why using gloves would prevent him from using this ability if he had it. I was just attacking his logic a bit, and tried to show that he's just making excuses. I think there's plenty of valid reasons not to get into the ring, but I don't feel 'gloves kill qi powers' is one of them :D

[Lam Tong Long]

Actually, I'm closer to agreeing with you than him (except maybe the "lymphatic system" part... I know zilch about medical history :p). The guy who started this thread seems to think he can shoot qi into people like a weapon, and I didn't understand why using gloves would prevent him from using this ability if he had it. I was just attacking his logic a bit, and tried to show that he's just making excuses. I think there's plenty of valid reasons not to get into the ring, but I don't feel 'gloves kill qi powers' is one of them :D

Hey B,

Understood and agreed for the most part. Being able to effectively strike someone PERIOD is a good level skill so small concerns about 'can I then do it with chi?' come well below in priority, IMO.

If you can hit, you can hit. That is the bottom line. The 'gloves kill chi power' thing is a an insignificant arguement. Can everyone not hit harder without gloves on????? Chi or no chi.

The only factor that detracts from SKILL in hitting when gloves are put on is the choice of hand formation. But again this is a lesser factor to actually making contact with a live opponent in a target area at full speed and power.

Jay

(Edit: The bit in bold should probably have said "Everyone, regardless of style, can inflict more damage without gloves on")

[gabe]

I have no idea why you take offence at what I'm saying. oh well.


Let me spell it out again:

"then if all you do is forms and lots of bowing while thinking about how a crane would defeat a tiger, then you're not really training for the street either are you? "

Then fiercest tiger comes and says basically the same thing. Who here says that all they do is forms? Reserve that silly assertion to the truly clueless people. Not me.

[gabe]

Not bad TT, this is something I can agree with.

Gabe, I'm not going to say your wrong, and I respect your choice to dissagree.

Here's how I see it:
The problem I see comes in when the "rules and equipment" card gets pulled. I may be mistaken but all CMA have their own way of addressing strikes, kicks, holds, and throwing/takedowns. Where's the problem? Usually it's with the instruction or the individual, rather than the system. Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees, and hold ourselves back. Sometimes the teacher doesn't have the relevant experience to guide the student in certain situations. I can admit that I'd be completely at a loss to train someone for a competition that included ground fighting...But that's because of my own lack of experience and skill rather than the fault of a system or ruleset.
I also beleive, anyone can, and should train with equipment. It can be a great tool for learning if understood, and allows us to train in ways that might otherwise be too dangerous for regular practice. Hand conditioning and specialized hand formations are great, and both have a place in personal development as well as competition. Heck, I love the footage of Bas Rutten using some devastating palm strikes in mma matches, cool stuff!

Also, who says anything about starting off in the UFC or in a sanctioned boxing match? Start smaller. Local amatuer events. Lie Tai tournaments. Arrange friendly competitions or matches with other schools or associates. Gaining experience is the key. Lack of practical experience will stunt the development of skill. And unless people are willing to go out and get into "real fights", most of which these days involve potential use of guns, there's really not too many ways other than competition to get experience. To sum it up, I don't at all agree that to beat a boxer you have to become a boxer, nor toe beat an mma person, you have to out mma them. You do have to train hard, be aware of the weapons they use, and learn how to apply your own.:)


Hi, I'm not quite sure what your point is but I'll address just a few. Isn't the phoenix eye fist the primary weapon of mantis? Ever been hit by one of those? It really hurts. And the guy that hit me with it really made it his bread and butter. His knuckle was conditioned and he found all kinds of angles to hit me with it. One time he nailed me with it at close range when I tried to clinch and lock him up. He didn't need much room to use it and it came out of nowhere. Is that too brutal for competition? I don't know. That's not the point. The point is that he can't use it because of the gloves. So, if he decides to "adapt," he must discard.

And the things that you have to discard might very well be usefull outside the ring. And things that you end up discarding are lost simply because they don't conform to a particular ruleset, not because they are ineffective or "too brutal."

Another example. I knew guys that trained very traditional jujitsu always with a gi. They competed and won and competed some more, choking people out with their gi's. They showed me a hundred different ways to choke me out with my own jacket. Should they discard those excellent skills because people don't wear gi's in mma competition and there is nothing to grab on to? Are you more likely to face someone with a shirt or jacket on the street or someone shirtless?

Those type of skills are not just tricks you stick in your bag. They are ingrained in muscle memory or conditioning as a result of serious training and sparring. When you have literally a second to execute, you can't rely on something you trained half-ass 5 years ago for two weeks and pull it out and use it effectively. In the end it's just a decision to make on what you want to concentrate on. If it's mma, that is a very particular animal to focus on.

[David Jamieson]

Let me spell it out again:

"then if all you do is forms and lots of bowing while thinking about how a crane would defeat a tiger, then you're not really training for the street either are you? "

Then fiercest tiger comes and says basically the same thing. Who here says that all they do is forms? Reserve that silly assertion to the truly clueless people. Not me.


dude- you cherry picked my post and took it personally and then took it further out of context.

let me say this about that.

"whatever" :rolleyes:

that was not my point and iwas indicating what are often the extremes of the spectrum and how gravitating to either extreme is NOT the way to go about it. I was not directing anything I you. I was making a case in point example and for some reason you decided I was speaking about you on particular.

If you would read the post without your presumptive idea, then you might glean something a litle different from it.

[gabe]

dude- you cherry picked my post and took it personally and then took it further out of context.

let me say this about that.

"whatever" :rolleyes:

that was not my point and iwas indicating what are often the extremes of the spectrum and how gravitating to either extreme is NOT the way to go about it. I was not directing anything I you. I was making a case in point example and for some reason you decided I was speaking about you on particular.

If you would read the post without your presumptive idea, then you might glean something a litle different from it.


You wrote in reply to me, correct? But if it wasn't directed to me, fine. It just gets annoying with all these preachers preaching about forms. Gets old.

[Jared1211]

I think Ten Tigers and Gabe are on the same point I am. I think the disagreement is pointless because they are different sports completely. It takes more than basics to deal with an mma, boxer, grappler, etc... You are training by rules in sport fighting and in cma you are training to disable the opponent however you need to. To fight in MMA with these traditional styles you must train by the rules of the sport instead of the rules of how to hurt someone. My hands are conditioned and my pheonix eye really is something else, but in mma I can't use it properly. I would have to entirely change the forms of my attacks. Therefore a style can be adapted to be used in mma, but if I adapted and changed it it wouldn't be a traditional style anymore.

[SiuHung]

I think Ten Tigers and Gabe are on the same point I am. I think the disagreement is pointless because they are different sports completely. It takes more than basics to deal with an mma, boxer, grappler, etc... You are training by rules in sport fighting and in cma you are training to disable the opponent however you need to. To fight in MMA with these traditional styles you must train by the rules of the sport instead of the rules of how to hurt someone. My hands are conditioned and my pheonix eye really is something else, but in mma I can't use it properly. I would have to entirely change the forms of my attacks. Therefore a style can be adapted to be used in mma, but if I adapted and changed it it wouldn't be a traditional style anymore.

That's really sad Jared1211. How do you test your kung fu to know that it works? Can you even spar? Or is that too limiting?

We tend to fear what we don't know.

[SiuHung]

Hi, I'm not quite sure what your point is but I'll address just a few. Isn't the phoenix eye fist the primary weapon of mantis? Ever been hit by one of those? It really hurts. And the guy that hit me with it really made it his bread and butter. His knuckle was conditioned and he found all kinds of angles to hit me with it. One time he nailed me with it at close range when I tried to clinch and lock him up. He didn't need much room to use it and it came out of nowhere. Is that too brutal for competition? I don't know. That's not the point. The point is that he can't use it because of the gloves. So, if he decides to "adapt," he must discard.

Yes, I've been hit by phoenix eye. But guess what...It hurts to get hit, kicked, and otherwise struck in a variety of manners. BTW...Have you seen mma gloves lately? look them up under google. Most are open fingered so the phoenix eye could be used unfettered. If that's not good enough, I hope you live somewhere warm, because no one's going to wait for you to take off your mittens in the winter;)

It boils down to this: To be good with your kung fu, you should be able to employ it against all types of opponents and situations. Short of fighting in "the street" something like mma is the closest you're going to get to a real fight. And if you're going to fight in "the street" bring a weapon, some friends, and be prepared to go to jail.

[Jared1211]

I don't know how most people train it, but we train our slicing and everything with an open hand. In training and sparring you can, but if I really were fighting someone I would do the exact same thing with the phoenix eye instead. It's pretty simple really. If you really want to fight someone it's a far different situation. If we get in really close like you're grappling or wrapping up you are open to the phoenix eye in a nasty second or two.

[ronro]

But how can you be sure you phoenix eye is so effective?

Wouldn't it be a good idea to train for some MMA comps and find out if you can really make it work? With todays small gloves you could use the PE fist.

[David Jamieson]

:rolleyes:

guys. there are people posturing that they have a technique that's too big, too fabulous and too deadly to be used in a sportive combative match.

there's people here saying that they cannot adpat their kungfu to a sportive venue to demonstrate it in a safe environment that takes you as close to a real fight as possible.

these same people admit they do not train these deadly moves as they are meant to be applied I.E: killing moves.

Kungfu is flexible and adaptable. Any decent set of tactics can be demonstrated without killing someone and it can be done in a sportive way.

I think there's just a beef with the "put up or shut up" line of thiunking that is thrown at them. IE : if your kungfu is so hot why isn't it winning the ufc.

I think that line of thinking just irks some martial artists for whatever reason.

Probably because it's meant to be provocative.

[gabe]

[whoops. doh.

[gabe]

Yes, I've been hit by phoenix eye. But guess what...It hurts to get hit, kicked, and otherwise struck in a variety of manners. BTW...Have you seen mma gloves lately? look them up under google. Most are open fingered so the phoenix eye could be used unfettered. If that's not good enough, I hope you live somewhere warm, because no one's going to wait for you to take off your mittens in the winter;)

It boils down to this: To be good with your kung fu, you should be able to employ it against all types of opponents and situations. Short of fighting in "the street" something like mma is the closest you're going to get to a real fight. And if you're going to fight in "the street" bring a weapon, some friends, and be prepared to go to jail.


Yeah, it hurts to get hit, kicked, etc. What's your point? It also sucks to get choked out from your jacket. There are a "variety of manners" that aren't appropriate for MMA that work just dandy on the street. And those gloves restrict the wrist. I'm assuming you don't know anything about using the phoenix eye fist or you'd see that.

No, it boils down to this. You only need a few things to be great fighter. Most great fighters have their bread and butter and make it work no matter what your game is. Maybe it is appropriate for the ring but in some cases, they are not. And the ring is not the closet thing. As I said, someone who specializes in gi chokes has no place in the ring although he may do all kinds of pressure testing outside the ring. You face him on the street, and you may have a serious problem with his bread and butter. Especially, if all you do is ring training, cuz you haven't seen it before. There is a whole world outside the ring that DOES involve pressure testing. Why do you assume their isn't? Are you seriously going to criticize someone who has choked out a ton of people on the street with their jacket but can't win a UFC match since his instincts and muscle memory is now a hindrance?

The argument that if you do this, you should be able to do that really trivializes so many high level arts. Should an outstanding wrestler win BJJ tournaments? Why not? Why does he keep pinning his opponent and then hesitate looking confused? Does that mean the wrestler can't fight? Wrestling is an art. BJJ is an art. Sure there is overlap. And then there are major differences and a great deal of muscle memory you need to discard if you change your agenda. That wrestler needs to stop looking for the pin. If he's been wrestling all his life, do you think that muscle memory just goes away?

Yeah, MMA'sts, tons of karate, kung fu people can all jab, hook and uppercut. Which one of them, even the most experienced, can enter a professional boxing match against an excellent boxer? A punch aint just a punch. Go ahead, take a couple of years and "adapt." Maybe you're exceptional and your few months or years will make you competitive against a boxer who's done it since he was a little teenage gymrat, in his ring under his rules.

No, these debates are not about "too deadly" or not traditional. It's about what you choose to train for, what tools you pick, and who you pressure test against. If you're not training for MMA, the test is not whether you can make it work in the ring. It's whether you can make it work outside the ring. If a MMAist or a grappler or a boxer walks into your school, yeah, you better be able to make that phoenix eye work if you claim that as your weapon. Or your gi choke. Or whatever you choose. You better have pressure tested the heck out of whatever game you choose to develop.

[SevenStar]

I want to know why so many martial artists of hard styles don't understand why Southern Mantis can't be used in it's traditional way. It is understood to me why this is. I'm asking why they can't understand this. It is simply because we are using our hands in ways you can't in MMA. They say it is useless not to be able to use it for trophies. I wish it would be understood that I don't get a belt or trophies in SPM, but it is far from useless. The style uses Chi and they can't develop Chi through a glove can they?


1. why can't many tma understand the mma can be just as deadly on the street as tma?

2. why do tma think we don't understand you use your hands differently? we understand just fine.

3. anyone who thinks competition is all about trophies doesn't really understand competition.

4. why can't people in general understand that live practice is necessary for the development of skill and that forms and two man drills aren't enough?

4. I would argue the you can issue qi through a glove. If you can't, is your qi then also useless against a person with really thick clothing, or layers of fat?

[SevenStar]

I don't know how most people train it, but we train our slicing and everything with an open hand. In training and sparring you can, but if I really were fighting someone I would do the exact same thing with the phoenix eye instead. It's pretty simple really. If you really want to fight someone it's a far different situation. If we get in really close like you're grappling or wrapping up you are open to the phoenix eye in a nasty second or two.

you really don't know that you would. Remember, you fight how you train. chances are, you wouldn't use the phoenix eye.

[Jared1211]

Now what you're doing is changing my words around. Did I say one time that my style was too bad for MMA? No, I am not training my style for MMA. It's as simple as that. Not because I'm afraid or that it is too bad for tournaments. Simply because I am taking martial arts. Not for tournaments but for self defense and my love for martial arts. Get your facts straight before you point your finger and say I said something that I didn't. A fighter efficient in SPM could fight in MMA, more power to him if he does, but I'm not.

On the other note. Yes, I would do it in a normal fight because I'm doing the same thing I would with my open hand, but I change the shape of my hand and that's all. If anyone here knows about the phoenix eye they know they train it over and over and over again. It gets really effective.

[Lam Tong Long]

1. why can't many tma understand the mma can be just as deadly on the street as tma?

2. why do tma think we don't understand you use your hands differently? we understand just fine.

3. anyone who thinks competition is all about trophies doesn't really understand competition.

4. why can't people in general understand that live practice is necessary for the development of skill and that forms and two man drills aren't enough?

5. I would argue the you can issue qi through a glove. If you can't, is your qi then also useless against a person with really thick clothing, or layers of fat?

1. Some do...;)

2. Some do...;)

3. Some don't...;)

4. Some do...usually the ones that can make it work....

5. Chi isn't really about putting anything INTO anything external. When you strike with chi power it's like condensing that energy into your fist (for eg) to make you hand harder and therefore inflict more damage. You can still do this with a glove on but the chi doesn't 'pass thru' it. When people talking about hitting with 'chi' (ie passing chi into someone elses body) they are probably talking about the effects that are associated with using chi to perform a strike with great 'ging'.
Or they are jokers with fantasy powers......;)

[gabe]

you really don't know that you would. Remember, you fight how you train. chances are, you wouldn't use the phoenix eye.

Actually, you wouldn't use it in a real fight. Because you don't train it.

What makes you think if you do train it, you can't use it? And when I say train, I don't mean forms so don't bother with that line.

[gabe]

1. why can't many tma understand the mma can be just as deadly on the street as tma?

2. why do tma think we don't understand you use your hands differently? we understand just fine.

3. anyone who thinks competition is all about trophies doesn't really understand competition.

4. why can't people in general understand that live practice is necessary for the development of skill and that forms and two man drills aren't enough?

4. I would argue the you can issue qi through a glove. If you can't, is your qi then also useless against a person with really thick clothing, or layers of fat?


Why do people love to use strawmen?

Anything can be deadly on the street.

If you understood that some use their hands differently, you wouldn't be expecting them to perform with the same equipment you do. If someone develops a high level of skill with a gun, why should they be able to enter an archery contest. Are you going to try to lecture on the overlap between those skills? Or which is more effective on the street?

You use what you train, right? Why do you expect people to use what you train, and not what they train?

[ronro]

How are you pressure testing your phoenix eye fist if you don't use it in sparring?

How do you know it even works at against a trained person? Aren't you interested in finding out if this stuff is real?

[gabe]

How are you pressure testing your phoenix eye fist if you don't use it in sparring?

How do you know it even works at against a trained person? Aren't you interested in finding out if this stuff is real?


What are you smoking? Who said I don't use it in sparring? How the hell else are you supposed to train it?

You use gear and hit them as hard as you like with your phoenix eye fist. Your opponent can come at you as hard as they like and you can hit them as hard as you like. If you care to, you don't need too much creativity to train something you want to do.

You need to read the threads more closely. Nobody is disagreeing with the notion that if you don't train with as much restistance and freestyle possible, you won't get it. And if you're going to say in your next strawman point that we only spar people within our own art, you're wrong again. Of course you have to work against as many different people as you can- that goes for tma or mma. You find people of both categories who only fight people with arts they are comfortable with.

[ronro]

I was talking to Jared1211 who only trains his phoenix fist by substituting an open hand blow.

However Gabe, I think you are making exactly the same mistake because you only train it with protective gear. This means you are not actually hitting people with it and so you can't know its capabilities in an actual fight.

*awaits streetfight story featuring PE fist in starring role*

[SevenStar]

Now what you're doing is changing my words around. Did I say one time that my style was too bad for MMA? No, I am not training my style for MMA. It's as simple as that. Not because I'm afraid or that it is too bad for tournaments. Simply because I am taking martial arts. Not for tournaments but for self defense and my love for martial arts. Get your facts straight before you point your finger and say I said something that I didn't. A fighter efficient in SPM could fight in MMA, more power to him if he does, but I'm not.

1. my facts are straight
2. get YOUR facts straight. I wasn't talking to you. I was responding to your set of generalizations with another set of generalizations.
3. yes, add some ground work and an spm guy could fight in mma. ANY style cna be used in mma...


On the other note. Yes, I would do it in a normal fight because I'm doing the same thing I would with my open hand, but I change the shape of my hand and that's all. If anyone here knows about the phoenix eye they know they train it over and over and over again. It gets really effective.

I used to train the phoenix eye all the time when I was in CMA. But I never used it in sparring. Guess what? I have never used them in a fight, either.

I also train judo. Out of near 100 throws, I have used about 3 in a real fight and 8 in competition. Why? because those are the same ones I use when I randori.

[gabe]

I was talking to Jared1211 who only trains his phoenix fist by substituting an open hand blow.

However Gabe, I think you are making exactly the same mistake because you only train it with protective gear. This means you are not actually hitting people with it and so you can't know its capabilities in an actual fight.

*awaits streetfight story featuring PE fist in starring role*


You are not even worth replying to. If you've never experienced anyone using it against you, or don't have a clue how to use it, what's your opinion worth?:rolleyes:

[SevenStar]

Actually, you wouldn't use it in a real fight. Because you don't train it.

What makes you think if you do train it, you can't use it? And when I say train, I don't mean forms so don't bother with that line.


LOL. I used to, and I never used it then either. and you need to read more closely. I was talking to jared who uses an open hand instead of the phoenix eye.

[SevenStar]

You are not even worth replying to. If you've never experienced anyone using it against you, or don't have a clue how to use it, what's your opinion worth?:rolleyes:


possibly. But you don't know what his experience is, do you?

[SevenStar]

1. Some do...;)

2. Some do...;)

3. Some don't...;)

4. Some do...usually the ones that can make it work....

5. Chi isn't really about putting anything INTO anything external. When you strike with chi power it's like condensing that energy into your fist (for eg) to make you hand harder and therefore inflict more damage. You can still do this with a glove on but the chi doesn't 'pass thru' it. When people talking about hitting with 'chi' (ie passing chi into someone elses body) they are probably talking about the effects that are associated with using chi to perform a strike with great 'ging'.
Or they are jokers with fantasy powers......;)


completely agree. These were merely generalizations in response to the poster's initial generalizations.

[SevenStar]

Why do people love to use strawmen?

Anything can be deadly on the street.

If you understood that some use their hands differently, you wouldn't be expecting them to perform with the same equipment you do. If someone develops a high level of skill with a gun, why should they be able to enter an archery contest. Are you going to try to lecture on the overlap between those skills? Or which is more effective on the street?

You use what you train, right? Why do you expect people to use what you train, and not what they train?


If you debate, at least have a valid point. I wasn't talking about ANYTHING that you just stated. However, to address your "point" (i use that term loosely) Any manner that you use may use your hands which cannot be used in sparring with a decent contact level, should be questioned, IMO.

[gabe]

If you debate, at least have a valid point. I wasn't talking about ANYTHING that you just stated. However, to address your "point" (i use that term loosely) Any manner that you use may use your hands which cannot be used in sparring with a decent contact level, should be questioned, IMO.


From your posts, I now see you were just making generalizations to make a point.

But to respond, it seems very clear Ronro does not make any effort to train it. If you don't try, or already have dismissed it, what's the point in arguing.

To your second point, we do spar with it. Where did you miss that? We wearing mobile pads on our chest and sometimes masks, which all allow a great deal of contact. And I've repeatedly said, contact and sparring is essential.

Now as to the point I was making, you have great expertise in your judo. You make several techniques work in competition and in the street. That's what you train. You can make things work in your chosen competitions and your training is suited accordingly. Why not respect other formats that don't conform to your competitions or your methods of training. You have repeatedly said that all styles should be usable or adaptable to all formats. What if those 3 moves you have such skill in didn't conform to a particular competition. Why would I expect you to be able to compete there? And if you are able to use it in the street, why would anyone criticize you at all? Maybe you see my point now. But maybe not.